Happy Sad Confused - Guillermo del Toro, Vol. II

Episode Date: September 12, 2017

Guillermo del Toro was already perhaps the most beloved filmmaker working today by the industry, critics, and movie geeks around the world but now with "The Shape of Water", his latest, he may have achieved another level. This week Josh chats with Guillermo the morning after his film received a huge standing ovation at the Toronto Film Festival. The "Pan's Labrynth" filmmaker discusses the themes behind "The Shape of Water", how he almost shot it in black and white, why "Crimson Peak" was such a blow to him, plus "Star Wars" and "Fantastic Voyage"! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get after him or have you shot You mean blow up the building From this moment on None of you are safe New episodes every Wednesday Wherever you get your podcasts Today on Happy Set Confused, Guillermo del Toro conquers the Toronto Film Festival with his new film, The Shape of Water. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz.

Welcome to another edition of the podcast. I am here at the Toronto Film Festival, and we are winding down our time here. It's been a busy week. I was here with a crew from MTV. Sammy was with me. Sammy is now back in New York. an extra day. So sadly, Sammy is not on the intro this week. Apologies. But don't worry, she'll be back soon. So I was able to, in between all my MTV duties of doing some fun on-camera

interviews, which you guys can check out on MTV's Facebook page and MTV's YouTube page, I was able to sneak in one podcast guest, and it was a hell of a one. It was kind of the perfect guy to talk to. Last night, I saw The Shape of Water, Yarmel de Toro's, latest film. Guillermo is of course a beloved filmmaker, anyone that counts themselves as a film fan, as a movie geek worships the sky. Not only are his films, you know, the pinnacle of artistry and soulful, but he's just a genuinely cool guy and is somebody that's always a pleasure to talk to. So I just literally left Guillermo, had a nice chat. with him. Not as long as our usual

kind of conversations, but because of film festival atmosphere, there's not enough time to do the full kind of like 45-minute thing. He's been on before, if you want to go back into the annals and get kind of a more of a career conversation, go back into the Happy Say I Confused Archives and there's a good conversation there.

But if you're interested in what he's up to you now, this is a fantastic chat. The new film, The Shape of Water, and don't worry, there aren't really spoilers in this. I mean, we touch on some aspects and hint at some things, but I don't think if you haven't seen the movie, this is going to ruin anything for you. But this film has an amazing ensemble, including the amazing Sally Hawkins.

I'm using the word amazing a lot. Apologies, I'm a little fried. But she is fantastic in a, basically a mute role as kind of a janitor in a government facility, I think in the early 60s. I can't remember the exact year. That kind of strikes up a relationship with a creature, Kind of a human fish kind of hybrid, played by the incomparable Doug Jones, who has been in many of Giermo's works over the years. And it's a beautiful love story, and it's a fantastic ensemble, too.

Richard Jenkins, Michael Shannon, Michael Stoolbar, Octavia Spencer, they're all fantastic. And I got a chance to see this last night at the premiere here at the Toronto Film Festival. and if that's not enough through just happenstance I happen to be sitting with Benedict Cumberbatch Yeah, humble brag It was not even a brag I mean it was just the luck of the draw

I'd seen Benedict earlier in the festival And we had a nice chat Just off camera at a party for his film The Current War And I knew he was catching a bunch of films there He was actually very up on sort of like What was at the festival And was seeing a bunch of the things that I was

And sure enough we ran into each other last night So that was just to see him again and to see this film. For those that don't know, Benedict was actually going to be in Crimson Peak and had to drop out. And of course, Tom Hiddleston took over that role. So in this conversation, we talk a lot about the shape of water,

a lot about sort of the acclaim it's getting. Garemont just won a big award at the Venice Film Festival. I played at Tell Your Ride. This is one that's going to be a big awards contender throughout the Oscar season. We talk about the development of this, how the film actually was intended to be black and white. We talk about his upcoming film version of Fantastic Voyage

that he's going to embark on pretty soon, as well as touching on his take on It and Star Wars and the universal monster universe. There's a lot covered in a relatively short period of time. So I'm thrilled that I got a chance to see Garamo and talk about this beautiful piece of work. So without any further ado, I'm going to toss it off to that conversation. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to Happy Say I Confused on iTunes.

Truly, your time and effort to spread the word and just click on a little rating or say something nice in the review section is very meaningful and would be much appreciated. So in exchange for that, I'm going to give you this, a conversation with one of the great filmmakers of our time. This is Guillermo del Toro. Guillermo Dator is about to be podcasted again on Happy Second Fuse. My friend, it's always good to see you. This is an amazing film, The Shape of Water. I don't know how you're still standing.

You've been traveling the world, but there's a lot of love for you out there. My experience last night was unique in that I think I would have loved the movie anyway, but I sat next to Benedict Cumberbatch, and that always enhances an experience of a film. Yeah. He seemed to enjoy it, too. I don't know if you talk to him afterwards. But give me a sense. You talked about a lot of interesting things on stage last night

in terms of like themes of the film in terms of accepting our own faults of ourselves and others. Like I'm just curious, like, when you approach something like this, are you underlining a few themes with your co-writer and saying like this is what the story's really about? It's about something, but this is what really we're trying to talk about here. The way I normally interact with co-writers is I interact in very specific points. It's great to interact on the beginning

because you always The hardest thing to break is a blank page And having a collaborator is the best You know, you can I don't know if it's the best for them But it's the best for me Because I immediately know what I like And what I don't like

You know And then you go on your own for a while And then you interact again And then you go on your own again And you stay alone During pre-production production because you're the only one doing the rewrites and all that. But with Vanessa, I think that a lot of people expect

that I would write the hardcore stuff and she would write the sappy parts or is the opposite. You know, there's a lot of the thriller spy stuff that she came up with and some of the hardest dialogue lines and I came up with a lot of the tender stuff. But she wrote the speech of the general, for example, when he says, you know, you will be in a world of shed and, you know, the universe will have an outline with your shape on it, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, it's really a great, is a fluid collaboration. You talk to also a little bit about sort of, you know, accepting failures and bumps in the road and how that kind of actually feeds you, and that's what defines. us. That's sort of what propels us onward. We talked, and I was a huge fan of Crimson Peak. I really was. I'm sure you were. But did that experience and kind of the different kind of reactions to it

affect you? Did it bummed you out? Oh, it bombed me horribly. I mean, you don't take it in stride. Easier after. No, it almost, I mean, I don't want to be dramatic. But it really, really

almost like made me say, damn it, let's not do this anymore. Because what happened, the mistake I made, the critical mistake I made is I made it for $50 million. And that made, I forced the hand of the studio to sell it to a really wide audience because they need $150 to make it. And market it and everything.

Yeah, exactly. So when you do that, then they're not going to be able to sell a Gothic romance in that way. So they sold it as a Halloween horror movie. And, you know, that's like, you want a lawn bag for your mowing, and I give you a Gucci bag. And they go, it's small, it's impractical, it can take only 50 leaves. Yeah, yeah, but it's not a long bag. Yeah, but you sold it like a long bag.

Where are the jump scares? I don't need all this beautiful romance and... And look, it's a peculiar movie. And it's a peculiar movie. They're all peculiar movies. All the movies are peculiar movies. sometimes they connect with another, sometimes they don't. You know, if we had in the past, for example,

Hellboy 1 and Hellboy 2, were gracefully propelled into profit beautifully by DVD and Blu-ray. Now we don't have that. So, you know, you have one chance to recuperate. Does the roller coaster that is inherent with any filmmaker's career make this kind of early run, and it's going to probably be a long run,

or hopefully going to be talking about this a while, it's sweeter, give it a different kind of perspective. Oh, yeah. No, well, listen, the thing is, you were asking, what did I learn? What I learned is you got to do the weirder ones for less. So when I pitched this movie, I knew the movie looks like 60, 70 million. It's done for 19.5. So I knew I was cramming that, which I said yesterday,

so that the movie was sold by Searchlight, so it's going to sell it for what it is. when you have a beginning like this an auspicious beginning where you enjoy it, of course. You not only enjoy it, you are grateful and you're humble because you've been on the other side. And this, you know, every movie that is successful is a movie that by, but for the grace of God

was not a failure. Because you're taking the exact same risks that make a movie not connect are the exact same risk that make a movie connect. I mean, it's early to kind of, kind of like derive lessons out of now this experience. But like seeing the reaction of this and you're talking about, you know,

even on the peculiar scale, this is probably on the higher end of peculiar for you, but the fact that whether it makes money or not and I think it will, but like the people are connecting with us like in a profound deep way. The emotion in the audiences has been really significant. There are some lessons there, I guess, being true to yourself and, yeah. I'm taking risks.

I mean, look, I've been doing this for 25 years, which is in itself a blessing. You know, it's a long run. I have only made the weird movies I want to make. I have never made a movie for them, quote, unquote. And the thing is, you know, all you can say is, I mean, if you're truthful to yourself, at least you can rely on that good or good. Right, exactly.

But people reaction, the reaction to this movie reminds me a lot of the reaction to Pan's Labyrinth, which was, these are two points, well, there are three points where I have re, re, re-created myself. The first one was devil's backbone, which was after the huge failure of mimic, you know, creatively, that's a movie that visually is the way I wanted, but everything else, it was tampered with. So I said, I'm going to do Devils Back when I did it, and for me it was my first movie. It was a rebirth. Then, Pants Labyrinth, because it really was, I said, I need to go back to a pure, crazier, smaller format. It cost it 19.5, too, like this one.

That's your sweet spot. But they also, it was the way the movie was received is the way this movie is being received. Probably this movie more emotionally. than Van's Lavin. He's being embraced and loved. And then I was in pre-production. This movie took six years, and I had this movie loaded and ready with Searchlight,

but I was doing Pacific Rim too. And that juncture came when I could detach myself from Pacific Rim and do this one, and I took that route. Was this the black and white? The film this was supposed to be black and white? So what was the change? Was that a Fox Searchlight thing? Was that your own?

No, they literally said, look, if you do it black and white, it's 16 million. If you do it in color, it's 19. And I went, color it is. You know, because I can make miracles, but only on certain days. Are you going to, you know, George Miller on a DVD? Or is there a black and white version of this? No, because if you take black and white seriously and religiously like I would, that way, yeah, the shots.

The values are completely different. You know, we would have used red filters. We would have given you the mid-range, the mid-tones. The movie would have been color-coded to react to black and white. So makeup would have been weird, or clothing would have been weird, but in black and white, it would have looked good. I haven't seen many fairy tales that begin with a woman masturbating in a tub. Again, credit to you and sort of like, that's not in the playbook.

but I think that you know, I think you referenced maybe last night like, you know, Disney princesses, they're fine, but that's, but this is, this is an adult fairy tale. Just give me a sense of sort of like, I mean, the sexuality on display in the film probably more sex

and nudity than you've put in film before. That was one of the points where I really said I got to rephrase myself. Because that's an aspect that I have been prudish in the past. Literally not just cautious, but prudish. And Crimson Peak was a step forward into concerns that were more adult. There were

less about me being a kid, you know. And one of the things I wanted was to say, look, if I do beauty and the beast, there are two versions that normally exist. The Puritan one, where they just kiss or he turns into a prince and then they may someday make love. Or the other one, which I find perverse and kind of creepy, you know, this bestiality thing that is titillating. And I thought, can I do a third version in which sex is just a natural component?

Right. Where they just fall in love and they do have sex, but it's not prurient or perverse or titillating. That is just part of the beauty of the love. And I said, that's the one I choose. And I said, part of it is making the beauty not a princess but a regular woman

you know makes me wonder what your beauty and the beast was going to be was it going to be closer inspired to this or no the beauty and the beast I was going to do I can tell you one thing

is it is one a tragedy because I really I think is one of the best screen plays that and the witches rolled down remained or produced

and they were both really really great screen plays but you know maybe one day You know, what knows, 10 years from now, the world will need another beauty and the beast. It won't be this. It's very different, but it's very pure, very beautiful.

Fantastic Voyage is potentially next. I decided to, look, for many reasons, personal, professional, I went to Fox and I said, look, this is the same company, Fox Searchline, and Big Fox. And I said, look, I really want to live through the process of launching this. movie? Because it took too much of my blood, too much of my sweat, too much

of my tears. Can I go through it? And then, let's meet on the other side and talk about it because that happened to me with Devils Back One. I was so much into, I finished shooting Devils Back One. Twelve weeks later, I had locked negative.

It was mixed. It was delivered. And I was already in pre-production on Blade 2. And I didn't enjoy Devil's Back One, which is one of my favorite movies. And I said, I cannot have this happen this time. You've earned the right to enjoy the spoils of this. And I literally said, like a university, I said, can I take a sabbatical?

Come back to directing at the end of next year, you know. That's all I know. Have you gotten a call on the bat phone from Disney about episode 9 for Star Wars? No, not on episode 9. No, no, no. If they called, would you even take that phone call at this point, or is that? Well, I've stated my desires on that universe in the past. ABA movie?

But we shall speak no more. Fair enough. What do you make of Andy's success with it? Have you seen it yet? No. It's a great piece of work. Look, Andy is the real deal. I think I've had the honor of producing people I admire.

I produce Juan Antonio Bayona, who is in my view, a powerhouse of cinema. I produce Jorge Gutierrez, who is, to me, a brilliant guy and Andy. who is also a cinematic, powerful director, great guy. I saw him on the plane on the way to L.A., about two weeks ago. We talked on the way in, we talked on the way in, we talked on the way out, love him. This couldn't happen to a nicer guy. And couldn't happen, look, what are we going to get now? It's going to be the 80s all over again.

Everybody's going to be doing Stephen King right and left. Worse things to enjoy again, if they're done right. Yeah, but what is the lesson to, we learned here is you give a guy that really cares a book that he really cares about and a good movie comes out and Andy was completely committed

to it. I'm curious your perspective given your love of monsters on what Universal is doing with this dark universe thing you must, I don't know, I don't want to presume what your take is but to see what they did with Mummy and their future potential plans is there, do you have any perspective on that

or you know really? I mean I think I think that you know, Each studio has an all-star team. You know, they have their, and the all-star team for Universal is the Monsters. They're trying something different. I haven't seen the Mommy.

I was shooting, posting, cutting, or mixing. I haven't, you know, I haven't gone to the movies much. Right. Because I've been making this one. But, you know, I think they were very kind with me. And they gave me back all my development material for Frankenstein. So I can do my Frankenstein somewhere else. Yeah.

And I'm thankful for that. So I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the cast in this, too, because they're too amazing to ignore. Like, to a man, like, whether it's Doug Jones, who you've obviously have a very close relationship with, but someone like Sally and Mike Shannon, Richard Jenkins, all of them, Stoberg, Octavia, I would suppose also the lower budget maybe gives you more freedom

to put, like, a Sally Hawkins in the lead of a film like this. I mean, the great thing about this movie is when I went to Searchlight, I started working on it in 2012. The idea came in 2011. 2012 was

a year where I self-financed which is not even on the budget. I self-financed for two years. A team designing the creature, a team designing the lab, a team designing the look of the movie before,

and a production designer came on board, and then I did an A to Z document that took you through the story, and it was always for Sally, because I had seen her first in Finger Smith, which is a BBC series where she falls in love with a woman in Victorian Times, and it's a murder, a thriller,

and their story was not prurient. It was, you know, her having sex with a woman was not the defining characteristic. It was part of who she was. And I love that. I said, this is great. Then I saw her in a movie called Happy Galaki, which is beautiful, and shows you that she can achieve a state of grace that is gorgeous, that is, in my opinion, similar to the purity of Stan Laurel and Laurel and Hardy. And then I saw her in Submarine, Richard Radjard's movie, where she basically has a supporting role, but she's silent most of the time.

and you go, oh, she can carry a movie on her own. And then I was already writing for her when Blue Jasmine came out. And I thought, I better hurry. She's going to explode. But that's, to me, also the thing I wanted was somebody that was beautiful in her own way. That was not, you know, the worst thing you can do

is have this movie, and then the cleaning lady is some... Actually or whatever. A model like actor, you know, I wanted somebody that could be real, but was beautiful in her own way and otherworldly and have, that you could believe that she had a sincerity and a luminosity. And you mentioned, I mean, you know, she, the invisible people that this film is really about, the people that, the films aren't even really made about, generally speaking, you've kind of like switched kind of roles of very significant. in this film. I'm curious, like,

did you feel like an invisible person growing up? Did you... Yeah? Of course I did. I mean, look, sort of and not

because I was very visible because I was... If you've seen photos of me as a kid, I was like Rudger-Hauer blonde when I was a child. I was like albino almost. And in Mexico,

that's very noticeable, but at the same time I tried to make myself invisible, you know? But it's about that's why the movie is set in 62 because it's about all the invisible people coming together to save each other basically

and because they do save each other in saving the creature they save each other and they save themselves and Shannon who is a character that has all the certainty in the world the Norman Vincent Peel positive thinking you know that thinks he controls everything

turns out he doesn't control not even his own body you know so it's this this funny paradox that works in the fairytale and it's fascinating to see like you know he goes back to like his Norman Rockwell existence that that you know that some people still cling to to this day like to make America great again you know whatever credo but like he's the most fucked up of all of them and it's yeah well he he is the only character that is perverse you know somebody very wisely said no matter what act you do there's no perversion if there's no perversion.

As long as it's consensual and there's no perversion in it, no matter what you do, it's beautiful. But Shannon, this same person said, if you are a Victorian gentleman and you are perverse about kissing somebody in the cheek, that act is perverse. But, you know, Shannon is the most kinky, supposedly the straight man is the kinkiest guy on the movie. I mean, it's not quite as introduction scene,

but it is kind of his introduction scene the bathroom is remarkable without rooting anything but like just the small um idiosyncrasies that uh yes fantastic um give me i mean has the meaning of this film changed even in the last year given our insanely changing and difficult times that we're living in i think that it certainly makes everything more timely but you know the thing the thing that is funny is uh obviously the movie was developed over six years yeah i've been wanting to do it since i was a child you know the basic story. But for me, as a Mexican, that has gone through immigration time and time again, it's never really quite, I never bought into the illusion that things were much better, you know.

So, because to me, every time I go through immigration, it's like midnight express. The heart is pounding and, you know, you're going to be interrogated no matter what. Take me to that other room, please. Well, I've been taken to the other room, you know, a few times, you know. I expect this isn't going to screen at the White House. What do you think Trump's interpretation? The most misguided interpretation of this film will be from Donald Trump. I can only imagine.

I don't think they'll ask for it. No? No, they'll ask for something else. Mike Shannon guy, that guy's got something. That character, he gets it. He may get secretary or something. Not strickland. But watching these actors work, who I would think,

I mean, Mike is such a singular performer in the way, and a truly, I mean, he's my favorite actor, basically, generally. I have multiple photos of him hanging in my office, basically, because I'm just obsessed with him. But do they all, you know, you've worked with all manner of an actor. Is it still like a gas for you to kind of watch people interpret your words in different ways and come at it from different perspectives? Yeah, I mean, look, I tell you, the joy, the joy as a director is to observe your performers.

You know, people say you guide them, you don't. And you really just play with them and 50% of directorial wisdom is casting. But to see Jessica Justain do Crimson Peak was like watching a pure red racehorse win the greatest derby in the world. Same with this cast of actors, you know. Same with my experience with Crimson,

my experience with these guys, ideal experiences, you know. what I think is nice here is that there are moments for each for example Richard Jenkins has the chance to do a little bit of a betrayal in the middle of the movie Shannon has the chance of being vulnerable

in the middle of the movie you see why he's in the predicament he is each of the characters gets a little break from just being that character and to see this actor's deliver as for a director is amazing. Shannon, I tell you, isn't another... He really is.

He is. He is in another world. You mentioned, by the way, lastly, on Chastain, when I visited the exhibit out in L.A., a remarkable exhibit, I just want the painting of the mom hanging in my apartment. So if you have an extra one lying around, let me know. It's a great...

It's the funniest moment. That moment in that film is so great. It still cracks me up. You know, I thought it was such a good joke when she says, Mother. Oh my God, it kills me still. You look at that, that burden is like fraubleuha. You have a lot more talking to do for a good cause with other people today.

Honestly, I'm so happy for you and thrilled that this film exists in the universe in these times. And I know we'll be talking more in the months to come, but it's good to see you, buddy. All right, man, very. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legend.

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