Happy Sad Confused - Guillermo del Toro, Vol. III

Episode Date: December 22, 2021

How do you follow your most universally hailed (and Oscar winning) success? If you're Guillermo del Toro you go darker than you ever have before with the noir thriller, "Nightmare Alley". Guillermo returns to the podcast to discuss one of his most challenging films to date (and that's saying something), his vision for the aborted "Justice League Dark", and why "Heat" is his comfort movie. Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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or go to explorevolvo.com. While other money managers are holding, Dynamic is hunting. Seeing past the horizon, investing beyond the benchmark, because your money can't grow if it doesn't move. Learn more at dynamic.ca slash active. Dynamic, actively different. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy Say I Confused, Guillermo Deltoro returns to talk about his new noir thriller Nightmare Alley. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harrow. It's welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Well, we've got another fantastic filmmaker making their return, their triumphant return to the podcast. I will say triumphant because this is his first time back on the pod since The Shape of Water, his last film, which, of course, won like all the big Oscars. So this is a guy, Guillermo de Toro, who lives in Brie's movies. He was put on this earth to make gorgeous movies that are haunting and mesmerizing and dark and romantic and his latest fits the bill.

Though I think it's more on the dark side than the romantic side. This may be Guillermo Dutero's darkest film yet. Nightmare Alley is the movie. It has an amazing cast guy's led by Bradley Cooper as a, how to describe Stan? Well, he's a bit of a con man, isn't he? He's an untrustworthy leading man, if I ever saw one. But this is a man who finds himself in the Carney world and really goes on a journey.

The first half of the film is in one setting, this carnival setting, and then the second half is in a much different kind of thing. It is augmented with these fantastic supporting performances from Kate Wanchett. who is just made for this kind of movie, this noir film, Rudy Mara, Ron Perlman. Of course, you can't make a camera movie without Ron Perlman,

David Strathairn, Willem Dafoe, Mary Steenberg and Richard Jenkins. The list goes on and on. Production design, cinematography, obviously top-notch. This is just gorgeous movie-making. And kind of a haunting movie, I will say. It ends with a really revelatory kind of scene,

a bravora piece of acting from Bradley Cooper. I'm not ruining it. Don't worry. It's okay. But I highly recommend this one. I mean, every Guillermo the Torah movie is worth a look or two. I know I will return to this one. So I hope you guys get a chance to check out Nightmare Alley in theaters, if you're feeling safe wherever you are. As for this conversation, always a bit of a master class when you're talking to Guillermo.

We touch upon a great many things, including the tough conditions that went into making this movie. But also, where he's at in his career, the kinds of movies he wants to make post-shape of water, the films that have gotten away like Justice League Dark, the films to come, like his Pinocchio, which is well into production and coming, I believe, next year on Netflix, and his comfort movie, which I was delighted to see was a Michael Man movie and one of my all-time favorites. So stay tuned for that.

Like I said, this is just one of those guys. you want to hear talk movies. Guillermo knows this shit like nobody else. So enjoy this chat. As for other stuff, I mean, where to begin in pop culture right now? This is arguably the best time of year because all the good movies are out.

There's a ton of TV out there. On the TV front, if you're a Witcher fan, the new season is out. I mentioned that because I got a chance to catch up with Henry Cavill for a Q&A the other day. And I really just delighted in kind of getting to know Henry that much more in recent years. and very kind to me, really kind of requesting me for special events.

And yeah, it's just, you know, and exciting to see his passion for that material. And I've seen the passion of the fans out there. If you're into Witcher, like you are all into Witcher. So happy for Henry on that count. Tons of other big movies out there, whether it's Spider-Man or Matrix or Kingsman, or if you want animated, you want to go see the new Sing movie,

there's something for everybody out there right now. So I hope you're getting a chance to enjoy. movies or movies in your home and most importantly I hope you're enjoying a little time off I hope I hope you're getting a chance to see some friends and family and most importantly I hope you're staying safe out there if you haven't gotten you that booster shot yet get it guys I don't know about you but here in New York City been a little scary see the numbers spike up with Omicron you know you kind of feel it when you know people that you know or one degree away getting it and it feels like It's out there, so, you know, just be vigilant, guys. Be safe out there.

All right. On to a little escapism in the form of Guillermo del Toro. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Remember, to review, rate and subscribe to Happy, Say, Confused. I don't say that enough. We want your reviews on iTunes, guys. Take a pause right now. Pause the podcast. Go over to iTunes. Give us a good rating. Write a delightful review.

Spread the good word. Don't be selfish. It's not just for you. But in the meantime, now that you're back, after you've written your delightful review, thank you. Enjoy this conversation with one of the greats, Mr. Guillermo del Toro. It is always a pleasure to have the one and only, Mr. Guillermo de Toro, back where he belongs on my podcast. It's good to see him, man. Same here, man.

Congratulations on the film. Nightmare Alley is another gorgeous, gorgeous piece of. the filmmaking and it is just packed with amazing performances. We're going to get into all of it. Before we go there, though, this is our first extended chat since Shape of Water. Bladed, much belated congratulations on that ride. Thank you. I'm just curious, like, as the guy that perpetually maybe was viewed or viewed himself as an outsider, was it a little bit of like a strange circumstance to suddenly be like at

the center and celebrate it? And now, like, I don't know, beyond the other. side of it what's that what was that like well you know you you you enjoy it so as long as you know you're going to then leave the building you know i mean i i know no no sooner did i occupy that moment uh than i decided to vacate the premises so right uh because i think the and i say this about nightmare alley i think success is a very dangerous thing is something that should come with a cautionary label. And if you buy into it, you can get really, really disoriented. Fortunately, for me, it took almost 30 years for that moment to come, you know? And that gives you a little bit more grounding. I don't know if that had happened to me

in the 20s or the 30s, it would have been quite a spin, because then you start second guessing yourself and you tried to repeat what got you there. And frankly, I couldn't have gone into a more, into a more varied direction than with nightmare out. No, totally. I mean, you could imagine people being very easily, and we've had this conversation before,

seduced by like all these like shiny IP, et cetera. And, you know, if anything, in recent years, I mean, Crimson P. Post-Pacific Rim, like all your stuff has gotten kind of weirder and more esoteric and more kind of like singularly than you. Yes. Yeah, no, that's the thing. I believe that, I mean, I was obviously tempted before many, many times. I was tempted very much before Panz Navarind and after a blade and I was very tempted after shape of water naturally, but by things that looked shiny and new. And I really, what I've decided a while ago, and I think maybe we even talked about it about 10 years ago, I decided, look, I'm going

to go into an apprenticeship in which I'm going to try to recuperate all the love and the practice of animation, which was my childhood. I'm going to try with Pinocchio. And then, and I'm going to just do animation and really, and the weird movies that no one else would do. That includes Nymer Alley in the sense, because it's a, it's a movie that is sort of a god punch. It's not a, it's not a pleasing movie.

It's beautiful to look at, but it's beautiful to look at in order to deliver. A big left and a right, hopefully. Well, and it's interesting because, again, this is dovetails of stuff we've talked about before, but, like, from the outside looking, and some people have thought, like, you as a dark filmmaker. But if anything, we've talked about this,

how you have been, by and large, a romantic kind of filmmaker. And this, I would say, is you going dark? This is the darkest part of the soul that you are truly exploring. Oh, no, no doubt about it. Does that reflect a little bit of like the fucked up state of the world that we were in, like where your head was at and what you were seeing outside your window? Yeah, it's what I see in so many ways. Look, I've said always about the movies I make, I always say the monster is man.

You know, the monster is us. And I thought, well, let's try it. Let's try it without the whimsy. Let's try it without the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, beauty of creatures and fantasy. Let's try to do a really almost Jungian fable this time, you know? And I think is a story rive with reflections about how cruel we are to each other, how we have engaged into a blurry line between lies and truth.

And we seem to just nurture from systems that are closed systems, that just reinforce or bias. And we separate almost into tribes very easily. And that worries me a lot because I think it's a reckoning in the way we communicate is we thrive in the dialectic of life. And we're losing that. Talk to me a little bit about,

let's talk about the circumstances of making this, because it feels like, like you've had some productions that have been tough over the years and maybe you thought like, okay, I'm through it. Now I've got like the budget that I need and I'm in a good spot. And then of course, this turns out to be, I don't know, you tell me arguably maybe one of the toughest productions for obvious reasons. Give me a sense of what it was like to shoot and shut down and come back.

Was it, did it just like screw with you? Would it help the project? What was the process like for you in the end? Well, I must say in many, many ways, it was the most difficult movie to make in many ways. In others, it was the most joyful, you know, on the plus side. And I think this had a lot to do with recuperating from the setback. The partnership with Bradley was intense and beautiful because we could sustain each other. Miles Bradley and I, we made a really system and a court that allowed us to restart the movie

and stay on the course. And it was great to have a guy that has produced, that has directed, that understood what we had left, how we had it left, how to proceed, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the reality is that everything else, even before the pandemic hit, everything else was very tough. We were trying to achieve a certain grandeur with the period, you know. We were basically producing two films, one that ends in the middle with a happy ending. I underline it with a crane that goes to the sky and everything. He gets everything, and then you go to the second film, which is the city. And now we are having to restart basically a new look and a new,

set of wardrobe and a new set of props and a new set of reality to put this character in. And that was complicated. Location was complicated. Rain, hurricane level winds, snow, freezing temperature, all of that. And right when we were thinking were past the worst, the pandemic hit, and we had to stop. Right. And as I understand it, ironically, you did kind of the intimate character stuff. before the pandemic and then of course you have to do the giant scale stuff hundreds of extras hundreds of extras and and and the complexity imagine that you multiply hundreds of extras for hundreds of people servicing each extra wardrobe probs hair makeup so we had to devise a system that applied 15 000

COVID tests to the to the cast and crew and we had to divide zones. We had to make a plan for economically making that feasible and from a sanitary point of view, keeping everybody healthy and safe. You know, it was it was not easy. At the same time, the blessing or the silver lining, if you would, not to do wordplay with Bradley's similar linings of this was that we were able to to assess very carefully what we had done, which was the second half almost complete. And we saw where we needed to take Stan and Molly and their love and their lack of sort of perspective of where they were going. So we made a slightly more useful stand, a slightly more full of possibilities,

Bradley was able to lose 15 pounds for the part. I was able to gain 60 pounds from the pandemic. We all did, don't you? I was like the raging bull of director. He's method. I was method, you know. Bradley's performance is remarkable in this. I mean, he's always fantastic.

But, you know, we're not going to ruin the ending. But this is a film that really rests on the ending. And many people have said this. It's the last seat is just haunting and it will stick with you. And if you don't know that, the movie doesn't work. And I know it was important to you. What is that like as a filmmaker to know, like, literally your film rests on a single scene? Yeah, in a single shot, actually.

Well, we agree very clearly that the whole movie was prologged to that shot. And that everything that – and one of the things is Kim Morgan and I agreed that the movie was going to be structured in a circular way, so to speak. So at the end, the character is having a break, and then you could look the movie, and he's remembering the opening image, and the movie starts over in an endless look. And this necessitated abandoning everything a little earlier. We abandoned the score, we abandoned expressive sound design, we're going to complete silence and just a very almost sacred moment between the lens and the actor.

You know, there's no more adornments. There's no cuts. There's no cranes. There's nothing. It's just the actor emotionally naked. And we thought, you know, we'll carry that set. It was a small set. We'll carry that set for weeks and weeks and weeks. And if we need to reshoot it, we'll reshoot it. And one day without expecting it and no one was prepared. Miles comes to us and says, either we should be ending or we lose a day because we have hurricane level winds coming for the carnival and we cannot have the cranes up or the crew safely there. So we went into a barn, into a barn, not even a proper sound stage. And if you pay attention, you can hear in the daily the wind howling and rattling the

metal sheets and we shot bradley's final close up for the movie which uh and we hope for the best we did a couple of rehearsal takes or and this was the first complete take um and that's the one that stayed that's the one that said first try really first try the the the take state it's fascinating to hear you talk about like yes stripping away kind of the bells and whistles because like that takes confidence of a filmmaker that's kind of been through it like i don't i don't wonder if the Guillermo 20 years ago that like any young filmmaker had something to prove and wanted to like pull out all the stops would have had the confidence to say to serve this scene to serve this moment separate all that other stuff out this is about the performance

and that moment I don't think so I don't think so in the same way I mean the movie that this is most closely related for me in an experiential way is devil's backbone where where the It was a very dry move in a school's way, and it was all about the reality of it all, more than the Wimsy, if you would. But I could do this because Bradley is that much, a guy that brings reality, you know. This is what I really accommodated the idea of,

observing in this movie, and listening in this movie. It was so great to see, I usually, and you know, we haven't talked about this, Josh, I usually shoot little pieces. I don't shoot coverage per se, except in a dining scene or, you know, in a long conversation. But normally I should, and I used to pride myself saying,

I just should literally edit on camera. In this movie, I would storyboard everything, And then every single shot, I would run like a master. Wow. Because I learned that when I saw Bradley become Stanton with Kate Blanchette. And all of a sudden, I was watching a movie. I was not making a movie. It was watching a movie.

And I said, why do I cut? And I was on the earphone with the crane, the crane operator. And I said, keep going, go up, go to the left. Now, you know, and we run the whole scene. And nobody knew that we were going to do that. And from that day on, I ran the scene. So by the time we get to this shot, I know that the moment that invocation of reality happens in front of the lens, I could trust that it would feel real, that it was real.

And when this take ended, we both had tears on our eyes. I'm glad you mentioned Kate. I mean, the cast is amazing from start to finish. but Kate Blanchett, I mean, to the surprise of no one is just perfection in this. It's like she is born for this kind of a role and just more than holds her own against. Yeah, well, without revealing too much. She's amazing. Do you relate to the liar, to the con artist?

I mean, many have called filmmaking, you know, a con in some ways. You're conning the audience. You're manipulating an audience in the best possible way. Are you generally the person that is gullible or the person, that is putting one over on someone else how do you view yourself well well i think i think that neither and both because here's the paradox of art the paradox of art is finding truth through artifice right i i would say that the element that is not there is the lie the con artist knows that what what is being sold is not real right what what we try to create is real

create a reality and I always think about that beautiful paradox of the painting of Magrid where there is a pipe and this is not a pipe but it is but it isn't but he's saying it isn't so therefore he's sincere right and you know the the greatest difference is that the con artist tries to in reality in our dimension simulate an emotional thing or a or a plausible thing that he knows is not true. We invite you to a space in which we both tacitly agree that it's not real, but that we can find truth. So I think that it's an imperfect analogy

unless you're making, like the only thing I can say is there is some filmmaking that for me, there's more danger in a romantic comedy or a shampoo commercial, than in the entirety existential cinema. I understand. I understand you have a black and white version in mind for this. I mean, I remember shape of water you originally intended to do in black and white.

So clearly you've been thinking about this for different projects. Yeah, that's the other thing the pandemic brought, because when the pandemic happened, I started seeing the cot and the dailies in black and white, because we are directed very much and lit in favor of that, almost like a serigraph in black and white and then the colors on another pass. And when I was an apprentice to Gabriel Figueroa,

like a PA on a movie, and I became his mascot. Gabriel Figueroa was the greatest cinematographer in the history of Mexico and very good friends with Greg Talland, for example. And he said to me, you have to art director. on reds, greens, and golds, because they give you all the midtones in gray. And I thought, well, we'll do that with this movie, but without any hope to make it in black and white.

Then the key for me was Kate Blanchette, because she was literally like, almost like in a voodoo ceremony being possessed by every great actress from classic cinema, the way she moved, the way she fit the frame, I was so seduced by that. I thought, all right, let me look at it in black and white, black and white. And I started looking at it. And by the time we went to the carnival, I would view the alias, only me in my computer.

The Macintosh has a little filter called gray scale. I would watch the dayliss like that. And I would show them to Kim and say, oh, my God, maybe, maybe. I think I could convince anyone. but Kate was the key because she is, I think she was born to play this part. So what's the fate of the black and white version? When and where are we going to see it?

I have to finish it because, I mean, I finished this movie so late. I was color correcting about five weeks ago. I was color correcting. So I did one pass on the black and white with a brilliant colorist, Stefan Sonefeld. And Stefan said to me, we need one more pass because you know the we were even we were able to even the temperature of all the midtones and the blacks but we need i still see a little bit of cyan or yellow on the on the highlights and that comes from the fact that we didn't shoot it native if you shoot it native black and white that's one thing but going from color to black and white is ironically one of the two

toughest coloring jobs you can because there's always it's very hard to get the pure white in the highlights there's all those contamination i uh i always enjoy uh reading who's thanked in the credits one that jumped out at me uh did you show this to j j abrams do what how did he help yeah yeah yes yes well j j and i have been friends for 30 years approximately you know uh we met actually in 1989 or 1990 right when he was like writing regarding henry at 14 years old basically like that's exactly right we went through dick smith and he said oh you should meet this kid it's really really bright and he just sold his that first screenplay which is exactly regarding henry and i met with j who basically wanted to to be um jim brooks back then he was talking about

like character-oriented the melodramas and all that. But he was a fan. We both took the course of makeup effects because we wanted to create monsters. He, like me, is a model painter, kid model painter. And so I knew he knows and I know that if I invite him to my editing room or him, me to his, we're going to be brutal. And he was very brutal.

you're thanked i mean i look i i've seen a lot of filmmakers thanked in credits there is a section on your film on your i mdb you were thanked in 83 different projects over the years short films features like so that speaks highly of you sir obviously you make yourself available to other filmmakers is what's the most frequent way you're contributing to other people's stuff is it simply putting an eye on it in the edits is it well how does it manifest i think I think that you have to run a very open editing room because you have to, to the people that you trust, you have to be open for them to grind your movie

and shake it brutally. And if they're willing to put the time, you know, you open the editing room. And I take the same privilege when like, but I meet with the filmmaker and I say, what do you need? Do you need a cheerleader? Do you need a cheerleader?

Do you need a beastly brutal editor? Do you need little notes about tone or character? And the filmmaker talks. And then I say, okay, let's watch the movie. And then we watch it. And I try to provide the incredible wisdom that comes from being on the outside. Because every filmmaker gets snowblind.

Of course. And then in comes another guy that thinks, you know, I have the genius perspective, I come from the outside. And in reality, it is the genius perspective. Because you didn't go through. Like, the best crane always goes. The best shot on a sequence always goes.

Often. You fall in love with your, kill your darlings, right? Yeah. I remember seeing the cut of Titanic with Jim and seeing a sequence that I thought was virtuoso, which is the chase through the end. inclined the dining room of Decaprio, you know, being chased by David Warner. And I thought, oh, my God, this is the best piece. And Jim says, yeah, but it gets in the way of the flow.

And I have a saying that I say, character is king and rhythm is queen. And if it gets in the way of the flow and the rhythm, you take it out. Speaking of Jim, has he clued you into the Avatar films? Have you snuck into the edit on those? Not yet in the edit, but I know what they are. I know the designs, and he would kill me if I said anything else. I mean, I always say... Literally, I literally, I think if I started to talk,

a little dot would appear, a laser dot would appear in my phone. You know the cynics out there that are like, oh, two more Avatar films. I'm like, when has Jim Cameron let you down? Trust in Jim Cameron. How many times you do you need to be proven wrong? He'll take care of it. I tell you, I've been with him through it three times.

three times in which nobody, everybody was nays saying, true lies, too expensive, no one, who's going to go, blah, blah, blah, Titanic, what a, what a folly, too expensive, too avatar, all blue people. And you know what? He has an insane connection

with the side guys. Yeah. And he is, the other day somebody was saying, who's the most articulate filmmaker you've ever met? And I said, well, Jim, because Jim, you can be having dinner and then he discusses fractals or astrophysic. And then two seconds later, you talk about an, like I remember talking about the hellboy with him.

And I said, yeah, there was this explosion in Siberia and amusing. He says, the Dengoska Forest explosion, which happened in so on and so on. And he started dissecting the historical period. I go, oh, yeah. If he weren't so talented, he would be horrible to be around, but we believe in him, Cameron. I think he could lead a space exploration for real. I mean, he could.

He could correct NASA rockets. Get A1 Musk out and put James Cameron in. Speaking of great filmmakers, whatever happened to your, you were working on something with Michael Mann, on a Michael Mann doc. Is that still out there? Well, I wanted to do it.

And then we started nightmare and I thought when nightmare ends, I'll do it and then came the pandemic. So now three years have passed. I want to do it only because Michael is, I think, a treasured American filmmaker. He embodies the tradition of so many great filmmakers and renovates it. And I think I want to talk formally with him and George Miller because I I think form in their films is so fused with content in a way that needs to be unpacked a little for people to appreciate how incredibly difficult it is.

And the other day I went to see West Side Story. And I started, as I often do with Spielberg, I started to figure out the shots and then all of a sudden, there were like three, four shots in a row that I couldn't figure out number one. And number two, I just started to cry. Yeah, you got lost. And I said, you know what?

You know what? Surrender, yeah. You'll figure it out now and then. There's a couple of the, in the dance, in the gym dance, and there's a couple in the, when they're walking down the street, there's a way in which the lens goes by them that I'm going to ask what instrument it was. Like, for example, when they enter the gym, yeah. there's a small crane close to the ceiling with them and then all of a sudden that same camera soars up into the gym and and people don't think i mean i think what is the rig what is the rig is it is it a cable cam if it then it would need to go in a linear's you know if it's a if it's a

if it's a techno, how is it into the corridor? If it's not a techno, it cannot be a drone shot because you can have to operate the drone that close to walls and ceiling and all that. So you have to, and I finally just say, you know, I like the idea of like, you're like, stop the film, I have questions, and then like, okay, fine, let him take me on the rod.

Yeah, I mean, it's... But you create shots for, not for, you're not trying to show off. I don't think any of the, I mean, the wisdom of, Miller or the wisdom of manners, Philberg, is that those shots remain invisible to the audience. If you make tables, you look at the grain

in the wood. No one else does. One of the great pleasures I had right before the pandemic, I was doing a series called On Location, where I would go to sets or locations that filmmakers shot on, and I went to where the bank for heat, where he shot the shootout on the street and had him walk me through.

He walked me through the entire sequence, and it was like, this is it. I peaked. It was amazing. So I hope you get a chance. Can you send me a link? Yeah, yeah, I will. I will. I will. Please, please. There was some buzz the other day when you were at the game awards that you were hinting at something with Silent Hill. Are you doing anything with Silent Hill? No, not, not at all. I mean, I just, I just, I just, look, it's just one of those things in my life that makes no sense. So I kind of just wanted to, to, to, to, to, take, the ribs of Konami a little bit. I don't

understand. That was so perfect. It was so perfect. That match what we were going to do was so enthralling anyway. But Kojima is one of the guys that is a filmmaker. And

what we were talking about a minute ago, I loved talking to filmmakers and the storytellers. And gaming as a storytelling exercise, fascinating. needs me. I would not develop a game I don't think again because I'm the albatross of video gaming. We've talked about it before. Yeah, I remember. I know whatever I do will, but I am very intrigued by the devices and how you learn them. One of the films that came and went that you were associated with that I assume is probably just down a different path now that I'll always wonder

about. I don't know if you're willing to talk about it at all, but like what was the Justice League dark movie going to be? Were you passionate? about that one? Is that like a... Oh, well, I... Me, myself, I never get involved with I'm not pressure. Because it's incredibly difficult anyway, you know? And I think if you... You don't go into a loveless marriage. Right, you better have passion in the first day, if not you're...

Yeah, you have to say, I do unknowing you're committing to at least a year in the screaming stage. If you make the movies, three to four years, five years, or more. So, no, I think the screenplay, one version of it is online, and what it was, it was for me trying to find the perfect balance of the chemistries of these characters. I took a little bit of the opening of, you know, the Alan Moore Constantine, and I took the dynamics between Abbey and the Swamp thing, you know, and I took the sort of. of revelatory moments when dead man gets into a body how how he would experience the the consciousness of that being blah blah and and my one of my old-time favorites is a demon etrican and it's a lot and i and i love that character and i you know you so you try to put them together satana satana is really for me, another character that is really effortlessly powerful and interesting.

So trying to mix that with Clarion, The Witch Boy, but everything, I mean, look, I was a D.C. guy. Yeah. When I was a D.C. guy growing up, and those are my, the characters I love the most, and I know the most. I'm even a busy guy in regards of liking the monsters. They had a, like, Marvel had manned thing and more views and this and that. But for me, the sort of melancholy and beauty of Swamp thing, both the classic Len Wien and Rites on One and the reinvented more beset and Tuttlebine creature. It's a great creature is, I think, one of the great creations of coming.

I'm curious, so you talked about the collaboration with Bradley on this. I know for a second, you were talking to Leonardo DiCaprio, and you've talked to Leo over the years, and I know you were maybe our buddies with Ryan Gosling. Are those two guys you're still talking to about projects? Is it a matter of time for, is there anything in mind for Leo or Ryan at this point? Yeah, but what happens with me, is I know it doesn't look like it from the outside,

but I kind of slow down. You know, I know it doesn't look like it. But I, you know, I want to do, you know, I had a brand experiment which we discussed, which was to take producerial roles on at Dreamworks and then create the troll hunters universe, which was really, really, really one of the things I'm the proudest of, if you don't mind making the parenthesis

that I'm so proud of the Troilhunter's universe as I am of Panza Abrant or anything else. I think it had the, we took like a very paradigmic superhero or hero story and explored everything that could go right, wrong, right? the characters into living and breathing humans almost you know like so you know now i'm i i don't have that i have a tv series that i'm finishing i have pinocchio that is finishing i'm starting research on my next project and that for me is plenty i asked you at the outset

to maybe think of a comfort movie i've been asking folks the last two years because it's always very telling. I'm sure you have a thousand different movies you could pick. Does one come to mind that you return to for comfort for any particular reason? You know, it's strange because it doesn't make sense for it to be. It's not like the movie. I can watch heat no matter what. That's a great one.

Yeah. I really think. And very, very often, I just put heat on the TV or, you know, it's not that his background because I always pay attention, but I can catch it at any moment. And there's, it's one of those movies that doesn't have, he's never on cruise control. Yeah. It's always delivering. And the other one, which is also strange, but that tells you about Michael Menn is a thief.

Yep, James Conn, of course. And the third one would be Road Warrior. The fourth one would be do well, Stephen Spielberg's dual. And I think the fifth one is a movie I visit often, but it's not comfort. It always leaves me trembling, which is Frankenstein. Yes. But it's more than comfort. that one is, like Catholics got to church on Sundays, I go to Frankenstein.

Does some of your long brewing Frankenstein projects seep into Pinocchio in some ways? Is there some overlap? Well, they are the same story in a way, but they're very different. I mean, the Pinocchio, the Pinocchio that I'm doing, and we've been pursuing for about 15 years, you know, it's finally coming to fruition. And I think it's a very intimate story because I, when I was a kid, I identified with Pinocchio. And I really felt that it was the same story as Frankenstein. What it is about, if I say it, I hope people discover the movie.

I think it's a very different version of it, of the tale. and we keep the basics, the tenets, but I don't know, I do relate them, but I still think the two halves of the tail need each other to complete the thought. Last thing, would you indulge me to dive a little bit deeper into heat for a second? Is there a sequence in there that jumps out

as what, I mean, as you said, there's no moment in that film that is lazy filmmaking. But like, what's a sequence or two or an aspect or two that jumps out that makes it such an exceptional piece of work. Well, look, you have an hour? I do. I don't know if you do. Well, no, but I can tell you this.

Like, most people will go up to the bank robbery, which is a paradigmic. And it influences and resonates through the years. You see it on an action movie. You see it on Nolan's Batman. You see it resonating everywhere. but there's things that are invisible almost for me when they are when they come out of the coffee shop and they're going to take wengrow into the into the trunk the timing and the

elegance of the camera in that sequence is like a metronome is it's like when people talk about hitchcock they always talk about the murder in the shower and psycho or any of the big moments. And I always think about the sequence of Carrie Grant carrying Ingrid Bergman down the staircase in Notorious. Because I always think it's the metronome. He has a limited number of steps. And he knows what needs to happen on each step and how he's going to cut it. He cannot cheat. It's a linear staircase. And he has to cut X number of times to convey the POV, the intimate moment of her whispering to him. He has to do that in the space of a

Sebastian getting agitated. And the same thing happens to me in the coffee shop with the Gwengro is it has to happen from the walk to the cop moving away in the street and then you have to convey it. And the trick is you have to be so taken by the cop going by

that Wengro escapes you. Yeah. And you go, you went away. That effect, and I talk about effect and the way magicians talk about effect, you know? Look, I'm getting very noir. Yes, yes. On brands.

I think the effect of Wengro disappearing is so beautiful. It's one of those, when you like magic, as I do, one of the hardest ones is close-up magic, chamber magic. And that's chambermage, a very tight space of time and geography in which you have to pull a trick of misdirection. You look at the cop, I'm going to take Wingrow. It's so beautiful. And I love that moment. I could talk Michael Mann and George Miller and Nightmare Alley all day with you, my friend. Congratulations on this new one.

It's another exceptional piece of work. And truly, I'm always invigorated by our chats. And I appreciate all the time over the years, buddy. And I'll see you on the next one. friend. Be good. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't. I should do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't.

He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude 2 is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspool, a podcast where you talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and Casey Mistoms. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone From Greece to the Dark Night We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks

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