Happy Sad Confused - Harris Dickinson

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Harris Dickinson may be best known for his on camera work in BABYGIRL and TRIANGLE OF SADNESS but he's quickly proving himself behind the camera thanks to his acclaimed feature directing debut, URCHIN. Here he catches up with Josh in this chat recorded at the Telluride Film Festival. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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wherever you get your podcasts. Denis Villeneuve is doing James Bond. That makes James Bond suddenly pretty damn interesting. That's true. No, and also the role of James Bond is interesting. The circumstances of Bond are interesting. Yeah. Like the character, the world, what he goes through, that's interesting.

It's like, you have a director like Denise, like, there's no doubt that they're going to be, yeah. I'd like to start manifesting. That could be interesting. Have you thought about that? I mean, have you even lost in your mind's eye? thought about, I don't know, that is an idea. Of course, in practicality. Of course, yeah.

Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, it's Harris Dickinson, one of our bright, up-and-coming actors, who also happens to now be an excellent filmmaker. We're talking about his new film, Erchin.

It is in theater soon. a lot to catch up on with Harris, who's never done the pod before. Very excited to share this one with all of you. Before we get to that, I'm going to mention a bunch of upcoming events very quickly. As always, check out our Patreon. That's where we put all the early access, discount codes, autograph, merch, patreon.com slash happy, say it confused. In no discernible order, I will mention these events. October 14th in New York City at the 92nd Street, why I'm catching up with Aziz Ansari.

I say catching up. I've never actually had him on the podcast, though. Way back when, early in my career, early in his career, our paths did cross a few times. Excited to talk to him about this one, because the new film is really fun. Very entertaining, big-screen comedy. Imagine that, a great comedy in theaters. You'll be able to see Good Fortune at this special event at Nice Second Street, Y, followed by a live podcast taping of Happy Second Fused. The movie is truly great.

It has Keanu Reeves, Seth Rogen, Aziz, many others. Check it out. Even before that, if you're near Comic-Con, you're going to probably bump into me whether you like it or not. I'm doing about six or seven different events. Among them, we are going to be doing a 10th anniversary reunion of Mr. Robot with Romney Malick and Christian Slater and creator Sam Esmell. We're doing a special alien event with Sigourney Weaver. We're doing a special Matrix event with Lawrence Fishburn. We're doing an X-Men event with James McAvoy and Nicholas Holt.

I'm moderating the Star Trek universe panel, and there's one or two other things that I haven't been able to mention yet, but I will soon. So, hopefully you've gotten your tickets by now to New York Comic-Con. Look out for me. Come say hi, trim me on, and enjoy all the fantastic nerddom that is near Comic-Con every year. I love it. All right, let's talk Harris to can send briefly before we get to the actual conversation. This is a conversation that was recorded at the Telluride Film Festival. I love you've heard me talk about the Soutreide Film Festival.

Adore this festival. It brings out great films, great filmmakers. It is a chill vibe. I spoke to Harris early one morning, relatively early one morning during the festival. It was very nice of him to carve out this time. This was the only interview I think he did at the festival because he wanted to catch up. And just a couple notes, reminder, whatever, little things to note. This is literally recorded on an iPhone, like at a condo in Telly Ride.

So it's not going to win any awards for Best Presentation, but we got it, we got the video, we got the audio, we got the conversation. Harris and I were chatting, you know, in the middle of a film festival. Your brain's a little bit fried. But, you know, enough apologies. This is a great conversation. We warmed up. He warmed up. He's delightful.

I'll mention his new film, Urchin again. We talk about it extensively in the conversation. but I highly recommend this one. I was so impressed when I saw this. This is his feature directing debut. He has a small part in it, but it really features Stephen Delaney front and so. Frank Delaney.

Stephen Delaney is the dad. I have that right, right? Yeah, Stephen Delane. I think it's Delaney. Anyway, Frank, front and center, as a homeless guy in the UK with like mental issues, anger issues, addiction issues, a really interesting character study, fantastic leading performance, and just

like a sublime piece of filmmaking. Really impressive for somebody relatively so young, let's just say it, Harris is just starting out. So very excited for what's to come for him as a filmmaker. This is in theaters in the U.S. in just about a week, I think October 10th, UK, around the same time. Check it out. Put it on your list, truly. But this is also his first time on the podcast, so we talk about everything, you know, whether it's baby girl. his, you know, fortation with big budget things, his upcoming Beatles film he's doing with Paul Meskell and Barry Keogan and Joe Quinn and San Mendez. So much exciting stuff happening for Harris. And you'll see from this conversation. He's just a real legit, good dude and like a true

film lover. So really excited this happened. And I hope you enjoy the conversation. I hope you put Urchin on your list of things to do films to prioritize in the coming weeks, because it's a busy season, a lot of great movies, and Urchin is a small one. But check it out. Support independent filmmaking. Support the great Harris Dickinson. Here it is. My chat, Tell you ride film festival, me and Harris Tickinson. Enjoy. We're jumping off a cliff together, Harris Dickinson. I don't know if it's the ideal circumstance for a podcast. It is in some ways. Congratulations. We're at Telly Ride. There's worse places to be doing it. That is true. You know, but I just want to like. Feels organic. Feels organic. We just bumped into each other. We did yesterday. We did yesterday. A couple

but yeah I want to set the scene for folks we it's a it's a little early for for us and it's a festival so yeah we might only turn coherent about halfway through yeah you might get 20 minutes of okay content yeah that's my standard but I've but as I said to you before I think sometimes being a little tired helps because if you're like I don't know about you but if I'm really awake and like two water to caffeinated and, like, really there, I tend to be more over-thinking, or, like, over-cautious. Right. Whereas, like, if I'm a little more, there's an element of tranquility that kind of helps

me just cope with things. Perfect. But, but, you know, yeah, intelligence might not be there. We don't need intelligence from here. No, we do. No, it's good to see you, man. Congratulations, first of all. I've told you this, but for the record, you killed it with us.

I'm writing director. your first feature film, Urchin, is why we're talking today. Okay, before we get to Urchin, though, again, we're in Telluride. First Telluride? First Telluride, yeah. It's the way to do it. How many times have you done it? This is my fourth.

I'm going to come as long as they'll have me. Because you're a day in, but you can tell, it's a pretty cool one. It's a beautiful festival, man. I like it a lot. Yeah, I like it a lot. I mean, the setting is like nothing else I've experienced. Certainly as a Brit, there's nothing like this in the UK. um in terms of settings go and then and then just the the feeling of the festival as well like

the first day i got here walking around and experiencing the the the moviegoers and the the actual experience of it is totally unique like yeah to anything else i've been to running into you first yesterday they have this nice little brunch that starts off and it's like i don't know about you that's that's i mean there we have some some friends some people we know but a lot of you know it's like Jody Foster's in one corner and yeah it's just it's craziness I found myself uh in a conversation with you Paul mescal and Jeremy Allen White who I'd never met and I was like one of these is not belong I need to get out of this quartet right now oh no I think probably all feel the same man but um how are you in those kind of circumstances are you like leaning on

familiar faces friends or can you kind of acclimate I don't know to that intensity yeah I mean it's interesting I really love meeting people I do and I think think those things open you up to that in the most sort of intense way you know you get like all different types of interactions and um i don't know i do find it quite interesting having having those experiences with new people but i mean it's cool coming here with a film because you speak to people that have either seen the film or or you know looking forward to it or not and then um you get i'm indifferent to your work yeah yeah yeah yeah i've got notes for you so um but yeah and then it's nice to bump in the mates and see people like Paul and Jeremy and yeah who did uh meet

anybody yet so far in your travels have you met any new faces that you have some admiration for or no um i met billy crude up last night um and i had a little chat with no bum buck who's very cool yeah i'm a fan yeah i'm looking forward to seeing his film have you seen much already have you seen a couple let's see last night i saw the new springsteen film Yeah, I'm seeing that today. Jeremy kills it. Yeah? Like, come on.

Of course he does. It's a iconic man. I'm excited. Yeah, it's a tall task and he lives up to it. Yeah, yeah. And then so Colin Farrell do his thing in the new Ed Berger movie. It's funny, I had dinner in London with Jeremy just before he started that. And he's so chill.

Like, he's such a chill. Like, guy, I mean, maybe he won't say the same, but like, he just seemed so. The first time I met him, so yeah. Yeah, he just seemed so relaxed going into such a huge. thing. I imagine do you have to, like, self-preservation for a role like that, I mean, click into a different gear or else you're going to, like, tear yourself apart for six months. Have you seen Hamnett yet? You've seen it today.

Oof, that was me last night, man. It's going to wreck me? Yes. Yes. I couldn't speak after. And I was sort of immediately bumped, I spoke to Jesse and Paul, and I just didn't know what to say. And I feel so inarticular after of those things when you're kind of hit by such a monumental experience you don't know how to kind of verbalize your

feelings and I found myself sort of telling Jesse about her own film and I was like shut up what you're saying right now I'm like just shut up like and I'm like just shut up like and then I tried to think what is interesting to me after I've just watched

my own film when what is interesting to me is to hear people's genuine thoughts right like a genuine reaction not just a that was amazing right which is all sometimes we can muster is that was phenomenal right or like that was one beautiful work but actually what I always love is hearing on particulars or like observations and then I also sometimes like hearing negatives you know maybe maybe I don't share the same with my film that I've made but like if I'm in something I always have a good distance for someone to be like yeah I dida do do like like I told you about that dude I think

I spoke to you about before that guy. Oh, in the supermarket, right? The supermarket that was sort of gave me his feedback on Triang Masanis ending. I was like, okay. I can't wait for you to meet up with him again for Urchin at the same supermarket. Make it a routine.

Listen, get him on the podcast. We'll do it a little special. And you can just rip into all of my films. Before we rip into all your films, no, we're not. What does it wait to see, like, your friends, like, kill it on the screen? To see, like, your contemporaries. Because I love this, like, group. you're in because I don't know it feels like you're this you're these true

siniest like you you you love Criterion closet and letterbox like the rest of us yeah where like I don't know it's a different kind of generation of of young talent now that I see that really like is in it for the right reasons yeah you think I do think genuinely yeah no I mean you and Paul are so cut from the same cloth yeah I mean it's lovely I mean it always feels like the best kind of fuel too to want to keep doing good stuff to see your friends working with exceptional people and like turning in these beautiful performances I mean and then yeah and then it's and then it's a weird one isn't it because you you observe these people's work from afar and then

the beautiful thing is then you get to work with them and you get to you know act alongside them so it's one of those really yeah you're going to spend a lot of time with Paul we'll get to that I already am yeah yeah yeah yeah but um Yeah, I'm super proud of him, man. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Pre-sale tickets for future events subject to availability and vary by race.

Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.ca.com. The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is an eight episode. Hulu Original Limited series that blends gripping pacing with emotional complexity, offering a dramatized look as it revisits the wrongful conviction of Amanda Knox for the tragic murder of Meredith Kircher and the relentless media storm that followed. The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming only on Disney Plus. All right, let's talk, let's talk, Urchin. Like I said, I mean, look, I've seen a lot of

like, you know, actors, young actors try their hand at writing and directing, and often they can feel like, you know, raw, unformed. They're not quite there yet. They're vanity projects sometimes. And this is just like, really, and from the time it debuted, it can. I think people were so justifiably impressed with what you did here. I know you've been making short films for a bit. So this didn't come out of nowhere.

But I don't know. Like, have you wanted to direct and write as long as you've wanted to act? Like, how did this kind of develop? Yeah, I think I probably wanted to direct before. acting really took over. I mean, I was making skateboard videos as a 10, 11-year-old, and then I started making, I had a sketch show that I used to make on YouTube,

and then I made these short films that were a little more dramatic, and I used to sort of rope my family into helping me, and I used to use friends and stuff and shoot on a little Sony handy cam that I saved up for, that was my that was my sort of introduction into film and I thought at one point I was I was going to be a camera operator I was really sort of set on that because I didn't know the wider context of of sort of a role within film I guess I just sort of knew you know the making of it filming and editing and then as I got a bit older I started to understand the craft a bit more

and then I was working on set a little bit as a runner during college and then And I was always writing, like I was writing, as I said, I was writing the short films and I was writing some plays and then acting, I discovered acting a similar time, but I never weirdly, I never mixed the two, like I never appeared in my own films. And then film school felt quite intangible, like it was very expensive and I was looking at a few places in the States and it just didn't seem realistic and so acting was probably more

realistic for me at the time because there was a local theatre school that I could go to and then I went to college and studied film and theater and I had a bad experience with my film teacher he was a really tricky man

like I've spoken about it in depth in other press and stuff but like I think he kind of put me off of like of directing a film a little bit yeah like he and so and then acting became a bit more of a um it was a bit closer to me i started to i did a bit of theater and then i started to get auditions for various different things so it was like okay i'll go with this right built its own momentum it's it's happening exactly and then i was and then i was working on the jobs

whilst i was auditioning so it was like okay the running and i was doing i was still doing some stuff on set as a second assistant AC or, you know, just a runner and trying to kind of climb both ladders at the same time. But at a certain point, it felt like foolish to try and prioritize the filmmaking because I was getting opportunities in the acting world. I was going to say, this is like a big choice for someone at your juncture in your career because like the opportunities are right now, like fast and furious. Like this is what many actors work for. Yeah. And to take this time out. Yeah, it was scary. It was scary. It was scary. take yourself off the market essentially for a year probably or whatever it was yeah yeah it's a big thing

yeah and it was a strange one because i think and it was a slow build because i made a short film with the BBC when i was 22 and it was just as i was sort of as i was finishing trying the sadness i was finishing making that short film and i was kind of editing it remotely in greece and stuff which is mad but then we came home we screened it at london film festival and then BBC he said to us if you've got anything longer. And I immediately was like, yes, I do. I've got this script ready. Like it was this 130 page script.

And it was urchin, but it was in a different form. Okay. And it was much longer and it was probably really bad. And then, and then again, it was like a three-year period of trying to get the film finance. But once we got to a point where I said, okay, there's a certain point I do have to commit to making this film because I can't just take acting work. and, you know. No, you only have one shot at a first film and this is going to set the bar for your,

if you indeed want to do this as a career. Yeah, but it was a risk because it wasn't fully financed up until the last minute. So there was a period where I was, I was, you know, not taking opportunities and my team are a bit like, your film's not financed me.

It's not a real thing. I was like, it will happen, it will happen. And then I just knew, I know, I know it sounds like cliche or pretentious, but I had this deep, like, burning thing inside of me to have to make the film. And I sort of knew it was the time to do it. And I couldn't, I couldn't wait any longer. I know we had to wait for finance, but it was, I had to do it now. And I had to try and make it possible, you know. So where does this come from? For those that don't know, this is, I mean,

very much a character piece. This is about a guy, Mike, who's kind of caught between the cracks of a system that's, you know, he's in this horrible cycle that we, you know, we all know in the UK and the U.S. and indeed in many places around the world where he's got, you know, mental issues, addiction issues, a lot going on and can't break out of it. And it's a tragic, but very human story. Um, that seemingly, I mean, look, I don't know you that well, but like, I don't know, like, how, how do you connect with this character with this, this, this world? Yeah, I think like, I think people from the outside that don't know me and know my experience or know what I'm involved in probably see me and see the work I've done.

They go, you know, what's going on? Like, what the fuck do you know about this? Sure. But I think, you know, I've spent a lot of time and years and hours working in that community and my local community with various charities that focus on helping people that are experiencing homelessness. And my dad's a social worker as well. So I've grown up around those kind of stories a lot. And I think I've always been intrigued by, like, cyclical behavior in general, because it's also something I've sort of watched various people in my life deal with.

Sure. And we can call it addiction, but really it's like more than addiction and more nuanced than addiction. It's like how we repeat patterns, right? Yes. On a very basic level, like how at the end of the day, unsophisticated we are in our makeup. you know like how how vulnerable we are as people right and so I wanted to try and tap into that with Mike someone that's similar age to me um despite uh despite everything else really he's sort of battling against himself you know which is so common with people that have been through a degree of trauma

and and I think homelessness is is the backdrop rather than the focus of it you know and and I think it was always important for me to fully understand that world and fully experience that world truthfully but then not be tied to the sort of the rules

of social realism. Right. And I think that in order for us to break those rules we had to really allow scrutiny of the script. Like for example, like the two years leading up to the shoot we had like so many

advisors come in and like you know attack the script in the best way possible because it for me it was important that we were we were sort of coming out from a truthful perspective but then it enabled us to then go somewhere else right and it and it was and it was interesting to me to try and tell a story like this in a way that wasn't um just like bogged down with the tragedy of those circumstances I think like even from working that community and I still very much involved It's like there is a great deal of tragedy, of course, and severity to it. But at the same time, what exists alongside it is exuberance and comedy and fullness and, you know. Right.

It's not 24-7 misery, of course. No one's life is, thankfully. No, no. And because, and oftentimes, you find that people that have gone to the sort of the brink of morality or experience or also, yeah, also exists alongside of that is this kind of fullness of life which which I wanted to try and tap into and celebrate as well and give a new sort of lens to that experience you mentioned kind of like look you definitely lean in and I've talked about like you know your influence of like Ken Loach and Mike Lee and that kind of thing but you do kind of like at certain points kind of go

for it a little bit and kind of break through break out of the the realism um was that a debate it sounds like or kind of like what are that what are those choices about in terms of like you could have certainly just made this feel total docudrama yeah um but you chose to kind of go a little lynchian yeah yeah i mean it's interesting even if you like i mean i've gotten rid of my old shorts but my old shorts even from when i was a kid were they they really did dance the line between like surrealism and and realism and i've always been interested in that because i am interested in fantasy as well and I'm interested in how we kind of as people look for escape as well right and I think it was is it important if we're talking about addiction trauma and also what

comes into that is is sort of escapism and surrealism as well and like what the mind can do in those circumstances and then yeah I think like the the likes of Mike Lee like I think Ken Loach is a different, I see them in much different realms because Mike Lee finds way more absurdity in the everyday, right? Or the sort of humor in the absurdity of people or the sort of silliness of who we are, right? And I think that really fascinates me as well. But yeah, I mean, I'm also like, I think the people I love the most, people like Lim Ramsey or Agnes Varda that also play with a more sort of cinematic. or Leo Carracks, you know, people that can create really realistic set of circumstances and then take the audience on a more cinematic experience I always find really interesting

and challenging, you know, like also like it can be pretentious, like my ideas. Right, it's a fine line. It's a fine line. And I was constantly worried about, you know, feeling like I was trying to do something that was ultimately going to be pretentious. And I think that was a conversation we constantly had, especially with, DOP who is like allergic to that and was always like challenging it and in the best way possible so was I yeah yeah what about okay I mean Frank delivers an amazing performance in

this year lead Frank Delaney like phenomenal remarkable yeah um I haven't seen him in a ton of things I mean I know it's working his dad's work obviously I mean remarkable but um you take a smaller supporting role in this yeah um we had we had an act to drop out last minute for that oh is that right yeah we had um we had someone lined up and then got it and Ultimately. I can have a bloody nose. I can do that. I can do that. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, talk to me about, you know, directing actors, directing, I think, and appear. Was it a joyous experience? Is it a stressful experience kind of like, I don't know, like, what are your directions like to Frank? Or do you kind of let him have free reign? I mean, we were quite specific. I mean, I think we were lucky we had rehearsals. We had like a week and a bit of rehearsals before. And also,

what was great with frank is that we had um he signed on a long time before like even before we had full finance and he kind of committed to the film and uh agreed to start prepping with me like long before um it was a real thing yeah yeah and i think that really gave us like we gave us like seven eight months of just oh wow working together and he you know i connected him with various different people and he was also working in the community and stuff and so it kind of gave us this really slow, gentle build into it where we were getting to know each other in a way that was quite personal.

And then in terms of on set, I think that Frank is someone who's, I mean, he's been to drama school, he's done, you know, he's a technical actor, he'll come in with a lot of ideas, and it was a mixture. I mean, sometimes I would try and free him of those choices because he's, you know,

you sort of come in with ideas, you kind of wanna break away from that and try and see what happens in the moment. And he's, I mean, he's the most versatile sort of cantankerous kind of actor. I mean that in the most positive way. Like, he will really give you everything. And he won't mind me saying this,

but sometimes those everythings don't work. And he knows that. Sure, yeah, yeah. And he's brave enough to try those things. And I love that because it's like you get these really bold choices that, like even in the audition when he came in and he was reading the scene between him and Andrew. and it was like an argument scene

but he read it like really gently and he was like doing Tai Chi I was like okay this is I think this is the guy like because also that kind of role like in British cinema there are you know if you think

there's a stereotype right the sort of unruly young man criminal like there's a stereotype and I think we were really keen to try and flip that on its head and find a new way of experience in this kind of character

Frank was the perfect mix of all those things. But yeah, he's deeply sensitive and thoughtful. So he's just the kind of actor that will think so deeply about stuff and really offer a lot. So it's just a director's dream, really. What's it been like slightly now on the other side of this now where it's starting to be seen by people, film festivals, and soon by a wider audience. I mean, like I said, the can't reception was pretty phenomenal. It must have been a hell of a moment.

You'd been to camp before, but to be there as a filmmaker and to be well received, it must just be such an exhale. You're in your own head for years and then. Oh, man. Yeah, it was the most vulnerable thing. Cam was like, I don't think I've ever been so nervous for something before. I've managed to kind of cope with those things in the past by, you know, you're part of someone else's machine.

Yeah, right? Yeah. And or I've kind of managed to like numb my emotions by not by just kind of being playing it cool and not not allow myself to experience things fully yeah and that means i've also been able to cope with it yeah but this this experience with my own film i really tried to allow myself to experience it properly and so i think i sort of checked in with myself and was like look just let yourself feel something yeah you're allowed to feel something here and it also meant i was incredibly nervous though it also meant i went into that screen and it was yeah you know

terrified like a like a little child and then um you know 10 minutes in and you're feeling the energy in the room and you're feeling laughs and it's like the most you know it's the warmest reception you could ask for and everyone's kind of you know with you it feels like they're with the film and and then of course people people like it and whatever but more than more than that it resonated and people got what we were trying to say and people got the message or whatever it is and so it was just yeah it was a rewarding and vulnerable yeah and of course then we partied and you go crazy and then you do yeah no do it again i tell you right all over again yeah um tell me a little bit more about like so you've talked with me and others about influences growing up you know micha least the kenlitches etc um

i mean that couldn't have been the first stuff you were watching though you don't dive right into Mike Lee as a kid you find that it's a teenager presumably yeah as a young teenager I mean my mom's my mom put sort of noticed when I was making those short films yeah she sort of noticed that I was sort of getting into more like drama yeah like I guess representing people that were around us as well in our like world and she put me on to the Mike Lee the Shane Meadow stuff but then right and saying my dad you know my dad would would put me on to bits. But again, yeah, normal, normal, like, entrance into cinema

was just the tent pole blockbusters and the stuff that we had on VHS and stuff. I had older brothers, so they always used to watch a lot of things that I shouldn't be watching. I remember, like, you know, the Donny Darko or the American Beauty, and that was always, like, quite disturbing or the butterfly effect, like those very young.

And then, yeah, we had a cinema near us that we used to sneak into and change our date of birth on our passport and stuff and do all of that. But, no, I wasn't particularly diverse in cinema as a kid. Not Harry Potter kid. No, not really. People tried to get me, people try to, like, force me to be like a Harry Potter kid because my name Harris Harry. People called me Harry. So it was like, oh, you must be, you know, buying me all the, like, wands and shit. I was like, don't know if that's me.

got it so was was there a was there a franchise you were into you went through a phase on was there a star wars a star trek a lord of the rings lord of the rings i loved yeah lord of the rings i loved um and i read all of the like hunger games and yeah the the maze run a series when i was a kid but then also just like a batman like i think i said to you before like batman was my and spider man the ogy spider man's yeah yeah yeah best yeah yeah what do you remember the first give me the first actor you kind of went down a rabbit hole on and filmmakers like which were the ones that you kind of like started to like okay I'm obsessed with this person I'm gonna see as much as possible

that they were involved in yeah um pops to mind I mean Gary Oldman was one that I watched really young in in I think I first watched him in true romance and then I went I went through and sort of got through all of his work and was just like okay this guy's next level and then Leon the professional was yeah was kind of doing the rounds or on DVD or whatever at the time and then um Philip Seymour Hoffman yeah was another one these are the correct answers for the record those two basically yeah and that's kind of enough isn't it I mean yeah um and then phillipsy moffman led me into PTA yeah I know because that and that made me okay so there's frequent collaborations there and then I kind of went down that um

wormhole and that and then yeah it's it's but it's it's it's a constant thing isn't it what's um have you met gary have you worked with gary now i've met gary i met gary on a on a photo shoot once he had his flies undone and i probably badly timed it and when he said hello and he was just like shook his yeah i was sorry i'll let you do your trousers uh oh don't leave him yeah he's the best he's not i grew up obsessed with the professional dracula all of it what he could do everything yeah yeah um and pta what's your top pta give me are you a magnolia guy are you a i think the master's probably probably right probably up there for me um yeah i was reading about him the other day he's i haven't actually seen hard eight oh um but i was reading that because he

made that when he was like 24 i know right yeah and and and he and he tried to call it city city yeah yeah yeah and um and then he and then he and then he made boogun It's like 27. It's crazy to think. But hey, look at you. I mean, you're, yeah, you're not so far. But Boone likes his different level, man. That was, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That scene when Philip Seam often tries to show Mark Wahlberg's character, he's gone and then he kisses him. He's like, I just want to show you. I just wanted to show you, man. So sad. So sweet.

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see golden nugget casino.com for details please play responsibly I still haven't unearthed your your Greece videos your music your musical work as a child I've been working overtime trying to you're not going to how many musicals were you in as a kid was it just Greece or were there multiple no I did hair spray as well Oh, the lead? Were you, uh, no, I played, I played Corny Collins. Yeah, right, that's right. But it was, here's the thing, like, it was a, I'm not a musical theater boy.

I really am not, like, it's not a natural thing for me. I think at the time, I did it because my girlfriend was doing it. And I wanted to spend more time of a, that sounds like a cop out. And I would, I think I'm, I'm, you know, I'm open enough to be like, absolutely loved it, wanted to do it for me. But the truth is I didn't, and I didn't love doing it. And it wasn't like, I knew. I kind of knew that, like, people around me were doing singing, dancing, and acting as a thing. And there was people around me that were like, oh, you need to do all three.

You need to be, you need to be well-versional three. It's like an important part. I was just like, I don't want to, like. Gary Oldman has done a musical. It's okay. You don't have to do it all. And he's still Gary Oldman. He's fine, yeah.

But then I got to a point, and I was like, okay, I'm good. I think I can just be an actor. It's okay. Then again, you are going to be a Beatles, so you're, you know. Well, yeah. But that's different. It's different, isn't it? It's different.

Were you skateboarding versus acting? What was the bigger obsession as a teenager? Would you rather, if I call you at 15, would you rather have met Tony Hawk or Daniel DeLewis? Oh, no, Tony Hawk, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I met Ryan Shetler when I was 14. I think he was like peak of his skateboard fame

and he signed my skateboard, but I've still got it. um but yeah that was it i would have loved to have been a pro skateboard i would have been overjoyed at that yeah i think i did try and get sponsored as well oh yeah i was like sending videos people i mean i was crap i was never going to get sponsored right at least i could try yeah um it worked out you got their backup plan was okay backup plan was okay um and then and then and then of but then there was a lot of filmmakers that reminded like obviously spike jones and like you know harmony crin and that that was also my entrance into like yeah that kind of like um like renegade filmmaker

casavetes as well you know like making more like okay there's a there's a thing here did you discover like heath ledger wards of dog town yeah yeah exactly right yeah yeah i really i really loved heath ledger as well i mean it he'd just come off of um dark night and then uh was it it dark night yeah dark night and uh was and then he was doing the terry gilliam film was when he passed yeah yeah that was because he did he did um 10 things i hate about you yes and i remember he's saying in his doc that he was just getting off at a load of things in that world right for like a year he had to just say no to stuff again like you know talking about your contemporaries it's like you guys there's a reason you guys talk about something like heath is he was that guy that like

Yeah. Could have gone down a very tried and true banal movie star path and been fine. Yeah. But his interests were in playing Bob Dylan and in Todd Hayden's movies and broke back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where the fun is, working with the great filmmakers, Angley, et cetera. For sure. So when did, okay, so you go to theater school, yes?

Out of that, do the auditions come fast and furious? Like, when did it start to take off? when did beach rats happen versus theater work, et cetera? I left college early. I left college a year early because I wasn't having a great time and I wanted to focus on auditions. And then I guess it was around three years or so, three or four years of me kind of working in a hotel.

I worked in the hotel. I actually worked in the hotel that's in the film. Oh, my God. Yeah. And I was a litter picker in that same field. Wow. Where they litter pick. So that was both my jobs.

I was doing them at the same time. And then I was doing that for a bit. And then I got beat tracks. Got it. And then after beat tracks, I... So I changed things immediately in terms of... It didn't change things immediately because I did that job and then I had to go back to working in the hotel.

And then when it came out, it changed things. So it came out year after. Did really well at Sundance and right. You know, and then it kind of threw me into the industry a bit. And from that, I got some more work, luckily. what was it like in that interim period doing beach rats and then going back to work well i didn't know what beach rats was going to be i had no understanding of um of you know i'd seen obviously eliza's film but i still wasn't aware of like even when i got nominated for a got

a Gotham award and an indie spirit i didn't really know yeah that that was like a great thing i didn't i was just like i wasn't really um clued up about the industry yeah um or or like fully in the know of like our cinema. I just was like, all right, whatever. And then ended up doing really well and, you know, being a beautiful piece of work. Did, I'm trying to think actually, because about our, you know, our past conversations. And I'm wondering, did you go to Comic Con for Darkest Minds? I did, yeah. I think we met there, actually, now that I'm thinking about it. We did. Yeah, we did. That was the first time we met. Yeah, that was it. Um, so you were, again, someone in your age group at the time, that was kind of the tail end of that kind of wave, the YA kind of thing. Yeah. So, were you

going up for a lot of that kind of stuff. I don't know. Was maze runner still being made when you were no, they weren't still making maze runner. I think they were they were sort of finishing that off but but what kind of stuff were you going up for at that first wave of auditions? It was a lot of that kind of stuff. I mean the it was there was I was going up for a lot of television. I was going up for a lot of it was when pilot season was still a thing. I did pilot season yeah in LA a few times and that was like this does not feel right. It does not feel right for me I'm sure. No yeah but I didn't know. I didn't I was just honestly like it felt like such a far away yeah industry and opportunities like I was willing to do anything like I wasn't sure at that stage I

wasn't at the point where I'm like okay let's curate a career I just say let me just get any job felt sort of filling up the resume yeah I just do anything and then and then yeah so I was doing some adverts as well as I did a few I did a few adverts out of the UK and then a few bit parts in telly and then beat judge game and then dark's minds came and it felt like a sort of new opportunity wasn't necessarily the work I was like watching or like but I think it felt like an opportunity to work on a on a bigger scale and understand like a studio film yeah it is striking though like in those even those first couple years the dichotomy of your work and like you say you don't really have choice early on but somehow you were like

you know you're doing the leificent but then you have like 2021 you're in souvenir but you're also in the king's man and then 2022 you're in triangle yeah but you're also in when the cradettes sing so it's this very interesting bifurcation yeah it's weird yeah it is weird when i look back at that tv like i'm like what what's going on there i don't know like how those things like the polarity between them is wild because only so much i mean you have more a little more control now but back then i guess it wasn't yeah i i guess there wasn't much um option i think it was like what was coming in and it felt like yeah like the the maleficent thing was so intriguing to me because like to play a prince

in a in a disney film was like so and at the same time i was doing county lines which was like i don't know if you saw that movie but it's like a british very dark film about like drug trafficking and i was playing like a like you know a drug leader out of london and it was the most like yeah most opposite work but um i kind of love loved that as well. I was like, okay, I don't know. There's not a world, no, the world in which I'm going to be offered like a Disney prince. It's kind of like, funny to me that I've been like asked to do this. Like if they knew me and like knew, you know, where I'm from and it's just, it's just funny to me. So, um, yeah, I kind of, I kind of took all of that. And,

and again, like, looking at the people I admired, the Gary Oldman's or the, even like, the Christian Bell or like, the finding, like, difference in characters. I was always fascinated with that. Like the idea that I could be perceived as, you know, stark characters was intriguing to me. In terms of the directors you've been working with and the experiences in recent years that have really changed your view or changed you as a filmmaker, I mean, I would imagine Triangle Sadness, I would imagine Baby Girl, those kind of collaborations. Those do stand out as ones that kind of shifted you as both an actor and just as a creative. For sure, yeah. And same with Joe and a Hogg, you know, working on the souvenir.

albeit short it was a really special experience and and yeah trying a sadness and same with Sean Durkin it was like you know you work with people and you just know what um you just know the good ones are you know it's like okay this is this changes things creatively as well it kind of puts you into a different space where you you want to be and Ruben Ruben was one of the most um that really felt like it challenged me as a creative and pushed me in the best ways possible and opened up my eyes to a whole new style of, well, a whole new level of filmmaking, you know, and aspiration. We spoke last for Baby Girl, which was a very unique film in many respects and then became, you know, the memeified version of it. There's also like the internet version of it too,

like the celebrity version of it too. I don't know, has that effect kind of like public perception of you? Do you feel a difference like in a bar, does somebody send a glass of milk over to you? like does that weird stuff happen associated with baby girl yeah if i'm honest there was a big part of that i really didn't enjoy um like speaking openly i absolutely loved i loved i'm proud to be a part of that film and i'm proud to have worked on it and you know i love helena and working with the call was just the most yeah yeah exciting thing for me but um the way the way that the the way of the internet the fans sort of reduced some of it

was quite strange but again you can't really control that and you can't really get caught up in it but people are strange people are strange and you don't want that to ruin the 99% of the experience which was the making of it and the finished product

was great but yes you slice and dice it and you memeify it and then turns into something another different currency it's a different thing yeah yeah like I think it's kind of, I mean, I think it's okay to do this to male actors weirdly. That's the problem, right? I think it's become okay and acceptable to do that and to younger male actors, whereas if we're in a conversation now, we're like, for example,

I get a lot of women say things to me that are deeply inappropriate, you know, and like when I was doing that press and when we were doing the Q&As and stuff, afterwards there were some situations that were like completely unacceptable you know and it's kind of just you're expected to just laugh it off yeah and I think that's why I struggled with that experience and you know people could say oh well you did a film that you knew was going to be somewhat erotic and it's like yeah but the the film that we made and the the approach that Helena spoke about for me it was something way more um um uh it unique, right?

It wasn't like a reductive thing in my mind. Like I saw it as one thing. And then I guess you can't control the perception of it and the way that people want to talk about it and the narrative. But yeah, it is a strange thing. And I feel like I'm constantly rejecting that a little bit. Like even on the plane, someone was like,

oh, can you dance for me? And then she's like, oh, he won't believe what I was when I watched that film. I won't say the rest. And it's like, that's what? That's not okay. I don't want to know about your, like, sexual experience with this story. Like, it's, yeah, it is odd. We can talk a little Beatles now, at least that's official.

We know, like, last time you couldn't even say anything. Yeah. So, congratulations. This is going to be a hell of an undertaking. Thanks, man. You're with quite a group of young actors, San Mendez, and it's going to be, this is going to be a long one, four films. Could you just be a little background just how it happened?

like was there like a rigorous kind of like audition process like a lot of meetings with sam was their internal debate was this a no-brainer or just a little bit of just how it came about yeah i um i met i met sam uh sort of middler last year as i was finishing off my film and he honestly i thought he was going to sort of ask me to audition for i don't know like a sound engineer or something like I never expected him to say John Lennon. And there was obviously, it sounds like it would be a no-brainer, but I think for me, I was like, oh God, I don't think, there's always the fear and doubt and insecurity of like,

I'm either person to take on that role. But I think ultimately it was like, okay, well, this is such a unique opportunity with such an exceptional filmmaker and an amazing group of people. And at the time, it was only Paul that was on it. So for me, it was just a very, yeah, obviously I'm going to do this. It wasn't like, yeah, the doubts were very quickly eradicated. The singing part of it, is that, how big is that in terms of the preparation on your mind?

Yeah, I mean, it's a huge part of it. It's been like, it feels like it's been coming up to a year now of music stuff, which is obviously, necessary. Are you and Paul and Joe and Barry like playing together yet? Are you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's got to be something. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. You go into a, I don't want to say too much, but you go into a process and you think, God, I'm never going to be able to do this. Right. And then you look back and eight months have gone by and you're all miraculously doing it. Yeah. And it's the power of like repetition in hours and what people hold in you accountable is, quite a motivator it's a real motivator yeah um and and they've got the most incredible music team that are just really um putting us through our paces and ensuring that we're you know we're really getting up to speed musically so i think it's going to be a really special set of films and sam is the most phenomenally focused and inspiring director to do this so it's going to be a journey it's It's going to be amazing.

It sounds like it is. It's going to be a thing, yeah. Are you at the point, again, my obligatory, obligatory superhero question that comes up the last 10 years, like, where are you at now? Like, I mean, did you, I read different things. Did you audition for Superman? Did you ever do? No, you didn't do that one.

Okay. I wasn't interested. I imagine you've done a couple, though, superhero auditions. I actually haven't. Really? Yeah, I actually haven't. Okay. Have I?

No, I haven't. These X-Men rumors? Is there anything to that? No. Is that just not of interest if Kevin Feige wants to have a conversation or you want to have that conversation or... It depends, doesn't it? It depends on the role.

I think, like, if I'm being totally honest, I don't think I've seen anything in the last five to 10 years in that universe that has been exceptionally interesting. Yeah. Character-wise. The villains. Yep. On the other hand.

Yep. Maybe. Yep. But. But if I'm being totally honest, yeah, working with like water filmmakers that have a very distinct thing

to say and intrigues me more with characters that are probably more closely related to the real world in some way. I get it. But who knows? Denis Villanova's doing James Bond. That makes James Bond suddenly pretty damn interesting. That's true. No, and also the role of

James Bond is interesting. The circumstances of Bond are interesting. Yeah. Like the the character, the world, what he goes through, that's interesting. It's like, you have a director like Denise, there's no doubt that they're going to be, yeah. I'd like to start manifesting, but that could be interesting. Have you thought about that? I mean, have you even, in your mind's eye, thought about, I don't know, that is an idea?

Of course. In practicality, yeah. Of course, yeah, all right, we're going on with us. Happy second fuse profoundly random questionnaire. You've never done the podcast, so this is part of the, the deal we end with us dogs or cats harris uh i've got a cat so i should say cat you should yeah that would be a betrayal of your cats i do you love dogs what do you collect if anything uh i collect pins pins yeah okay do your favorite pin i've got pins on my do you

have a cherished pin like what you're um i found an urchin pin in in Copenhagen that i bought and that seems fitting yes Favorite video game of all time? GTA. Nice. To go to Johnson Memorial question, she asked me this. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one B in your butt? One B in my butt?

Yeah, that's... Who would rather have a mouthful of Bs? It's a very rare answer. She asked you that? She did ask me back. When? I was asking her, would you rather questions? And she totally went up to me.

She's like, I have one for you, Josh. And it's haunted me ever since, as it will, you now. that's wild yeah she's a wild lady uh what's the wallpaper on your phone is a photo it's a dante painting nice bit okay pretentious i need to change it oh you're good uh last actor you were mistaken for um um uh uh uh drew stocky what are the circumstances is that just uh was in america and someone someone was like are you drew no you're not are you i don't know big obfx fan but that's not me yeah um someone someone someone Alan um Alan um Alan Cummings came up to me and thought I was a ballerina

recently I was like nope nope no no no no no no um worst note of director has ever given you do again but better genuine note yeah do again but better and don't touch your hair. Don't like it when you touch your hair. I don't like that. Don't like that. Don't do it again. And do it better. Yeah. And in the spirit of happy, sad, confused. An actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen. You're instantly happier. Adam Sala. Comes up a lot. Movie that makes you sad. I mean, I just watched Hamnet and that was incredibly sad. Yeah, that's hardly. Yeah. Sounds like that's the one this year. And a food that makes you confused. But the secret garden always makes me sad. The boy in the bath.

I always felt very so good. What was the food one? Last one is the food that makes you... Excuse me. The food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that? Oh.

Like pickled herring? Yeah. No. Support. Yeah, I'm with you. Do you what I mean? Yeah? Why?

Why? Don't need that. Why? Why? Don't need it. But you do you. You do you. What's yours?

I have a few beats. I'm not a beat's guy you know no mushrooms I've a few I'm a little particular you don't like mushrooms no mushrooms no mushrooms I hate the big ones yeah I can get big portable ones I can get out I can get down with like a truffle on something yeah but that's me that's the next conversation we did it buddy congratulations thanks me I think we were semi coherent for 830 in the morning so during the film festival don't remember what I said but I appreciate you having me man I'm so lovely

it's lovely to see you honestly congratulations I was so excited when I knew you were doing this film and then even more excited when I saw it and see that you absolutely killed it. People check out Urchin, support this guy as both an actor and a filmmaker a lot more to come. Thanks again, buddy. Thank you, mate. Cheers. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't I should do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today.

Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on The Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone. Stone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S. Army and Native American Warriors, to dark corners for the disaster of the Donner Party, and shining summits for achievements like the Transcontinental Railroad. We'll go back to the earliest days of explorers and mountain men and head up through notorious Pinkerton agents and gunmen like Tom Horn. Every episode features narrative writing and cinematic music, and there are hundreds of episodes available to binge. I'm Chris Wimmer.

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