Happy Sad Confused - HOUSE OF THE DRAGON (Matt Smith, Emma D'Arcy, Olivia Cooke, Fabien Frankel, Tom Glynn-Carney & more)

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

The HOUSE OF THE DRAGON cast (Matt Smith, Emma D'Arcy, Olivia Cooke, Fabien Frankel, Tom Glynn-Carney, Steve Toussaint, and Ewan Mitchell) gathers (along with Ryan Condal and Sara Hess) to talk about key relationships, creative challenges, and look ahead to season 3. UPCOMING EVENTS 28 YEARS LATER Q&A with Jodie Comer, Aaron Taylor-Johnson, & Danny Boyle 6/1 in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Gary Oldman in LA 6/3 -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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We're all rooting for that poor guy. What a sweetie. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Say, Confused, a very special one for the House of the Dragon fans out there. A very rare opportunity to hear from pretty much the entire main cast and creators of this epic show. So that is the main event on Happy Say I Confused today. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast, listening or watching however you are enjoying this.

We have two events that I've been touting for a number of weeks my last time touting them because they are upon us. Okay, last, this is your last chance, I think, for both of these probably. This Sunday, if you're in New York, come on out, guys. 28 years later with Jody Comer, Aaron Taylor Johnson, and Danny Boyle, exclusive clips, a sneak peek at this hugely anticipated film with some of our favorite guests on how. Happy, say I confused. It's going to be a blast. Information is in the show notes. As is our June third event in Los Angeles. I'm coming to L.A. very, very soon with living legend Gary Oldman to talk about slow horses, but his entire career from Harry Potter, Dark Knight, Sitter Nancy, true romance, everything and anything that I can pack into an hour. It's going to be

a blast. Tickets have gone very fast, so the best seats in the house are taken, but there's still plenty because it's a it's a pretty intimate space so get in on it it's going to be a packed house it's going to be awesome um as always check out our patreon patreon patreon dot com slash happy say confused for discount codes early access autographed posters all sorts of cool stuff i hope you guys have been enjoying all our coverage lately we did a lot of mission impossible some really fun stuff the christopher mcclory conversation was a blast on our last episode if you haven't check that out. Please do. I also got a chance to catch up with Tom Cruise and Simon Pegg and Haley Atwell for MTV. Some really cool stuff I've been posting on my social media. As always,

you can follow me at Joshua Horowitz on Instagram. That's the best place to keep abreast of what I'm up to besides the Patreon. Okay, let's talk House of the Dragon. House of the Dragon. Love this show. I was a late bloomer to Game of Thrones, but now I'm all in. We've been privileged to have a bunch of these actors individually on the podcast before, but to have a big group, huge, huge opportunity. I was very honored to be asked to moderate this. This is actually from a couple months back, but has never been seen by the masses or heard by the masses.

They invited me out to Los Angeles to host the cast, the creators of House of the Dragon for this conversation for Emmy voters in the hopes of getting the word out on this fantastic show. And I'm so thrilled to finally be able to share it with us. all of you get a load of this group that you're going to hear from um ryan condo who's the co-creator and executive producer sarah hess who's the executive producer and a writer on the show matt smith is on this panel emma darcy olivia cook fabian frankle steve tucson tucson tom gwin carney and you and mitchell um pretty cool pretty awesome nine amazing folks uh hadn't met

a couple of them i got a chance to get to know you in a bit kept running into him at the hotel that was so fun. He was so sweet. I love Fabian from my past conversation with him at New York Comic-Con. Matt, of course, a regular on the podcast. Emma, been on the podcast. Olivia hadn't seen it a while, but lovely to catch up with her. Just a great group. And this show is a big undertaking, to say the least. It doesn't get any bigger than this. The scale of it, every aspect of it is impeccably done. And to hear a little bit about the process, the writing process, the production process. how these actors approach these roles, particularly in season two, and a little sneak peek at season three. This was the first time they'd gathered in a really long time. So to set this up, they gathered, I think, just literally that day for this event. And then I think we're going into production, read-throughs, et cetera, for season three, which by now is well underway. So this was a cool moment in time to capture with this lovely cast, this lovely creative team. I hope you guys enjoy this.

My thanks to everybody at HBO for inviting me and, again, to this amazing group. So I hope you guys enjoy this. This is me in Los Angeles in a fancy event space with the cast and crew of House of the Dragon. Enjoy. Hi, everybody. How's it going, everyone? Welcome. My name's Josh Horowitz.

I'm so thrilled to be here tonight to welcome you to a celebration of this remarkable show house of the dragon everybody ready to see some of these amazing actors and creators um look this show uh as you can now you just got a really good reminder by seeing episode four of season two this show marries everything well together on the big screen especially on the big screen i have to say how great does it look on the big screen production design uh effects the writing the cast everything about this show is impeccably done and my gosh to succeed to kind of like establish themselves in their own right after a show like game of thrones one an accomplishment i'm so excited to bring these guys out uh they've just had a nice reunion backstage because they haven't seen each other in a while

and yes season three is coming so uh we're gonna get into a lot of yeah we'll talk season two mostly guys okay you know no spoilers uh but we have a lot of seats to fill so let's bring them on out please give a warm welcome to you and mitchell everybody you and come on out Tom Glenn Carney, please join us. Mr. Steve Toussaint is with us. Come on out. Fabian Frankel, join us, please. Olivia Cook is with us tonight.

Olivia, please join us. The amazing Emma Darcy, everybody. Matt Smith is in the house. Come on, Matt. Executive producer Sarah Hess is with us. And co-creator showrunner and executive producer, Ryan Condole. Ryan, please join us. And that's all the time we have.

That's always the joke after, you know, there are more than five panelists. Congratulations, everybody. It's so good to see you. you all. So it's been a minute since you've all gathered. This is just like a glorified excuse to reunite, right? How active has the WhatsApp text group spin in the last year and a half, two years in the House of the Dragon realm? Dormant. What's that? I said dormant. No, no, it is nice. I haven't, we haven't seen each other. Like, not in like a, you know, not on mass for a bit.

Yeah. I sensed actual warmth and love backstage, not like the phony bologna. Hollywood thing. Who does the phony bologna tell us? Yeah, let me go on through the shows. No, no, no. Is there, Ryan, is there a common denominator in a cast member in House of the Dragon? How do you cast a show like this and know they're going to bring the stuff you need for a show like this? These guys are great.

I mean, look, they actually do, they're very good actors, so you never would know. But we genuinely all like each other. It's a lot. I mean, this show is a lot. You're around each other for a long time, especially season one, which essentially took like a year to film. So I was a little worried because of COVID and everything. It was a little worried coming out of that. Did we all, you know, get too much of each other?

But it's been really great. And I think the sense that we're all collaborating to make this thing that, you know, has really resonated with people is a big part of that. But, I mean, all credit goes to Kate Rhodes-James, our casting director who helped assemble this crazy group and also remember in season

one the younger versions of everybody and it was just that was such a monumental task to build but you know I think you're just you're just it's you're looking for this alchemy of trying to you know match people with these roles

and have them embody the role and then also make it three dimensional you know lift it off the page and make it into something new and part of that is an actor embodying it you're just kind of doing it one at a time and then you know hoping that it's all going to jive together. Before we talk to your amazing cast,

I'd love to hear from both of you a little bit about how you marry what we just saw in this episode, time and time again, the spectacle with the intimate moments and finding the drama and not being overwhelmed by the spectacle. Is that a constant discussion in the writer's room as you're putting together each episode,

and how do you find that balance, you think? Yeah, I mean, that is really the trick of the show. I mean, this show is ultimately a chamber drama. I mean, writ very large. And I think that's the thing that, you know, that, you know, Sarah and I think I'd like to think do very well together is creating a thing that is largely two people in a room trying to get one over on each other

and then filling it with this sense of scope and scale and sprawl many locations. you know, battles action, building up to those big scenes. And I think this episode is a great indicator of the reason this episode, I think, works so well is because we've earned our way into it. If you just did this episode out of context with all the exciting spectacle, it's all gorgeously rendered and done. But if you don't care about what's going on and you're not invested in, you know,

Egonne in his journey and, you know, and Rainis and her, you know, heroic last stand, then it all kind of, it's just, you know, it's just empty calories. It just kind of goes by. you have to put in the hard work of doing that, you know, doing the chamber drama so that something like this works. Yeah, I think you'd agree with me that we both feel that like a scene with two people in a room can be just as intense and dramatic as a giant dragon battle. Like, it's not a, you know, you're not saying that this is the, you know,

even though in this episode that's the climactic scene, I think we really invest. We feel that the big drama is like mostly between two people. and I think, I mean, I think you'd agree with me that that's like our priority, yeah. The giant spectacular things mean nothing unless you are invested in it. And, you know, we could do one of those every episode

and it would just get boring unless you're really in the people. You mentioned, Rainies, I did want to mention the amazing Eve Best, who you just saw featured so amazingly in this episode, was going to be here, couldn't be here tonight because of a conflict. But, I mean, what a showcase for her in this episode. What a send-off.

She's amazing. Amazing. All right, so let's talk. about some of these character arcs that we saw this season who was surprised you know you've been through it you've been through the first season who was surprised when they saw what was on tap for you in season two steve yeah uh at the end of season one i didn't know that i had kids so that was a surprise when i read those episodes and was like oh my god i thought he was just he just loved renees but ooh naughty boy so yeah that took a little bit of uh working out in

my mind. Sure. Anyone else think they had, they, I have a beat on the character, I know what's what, and then these writers have thrown me for a loop. Tom, were you ready to get your face burned off? I knew it was coming. I just didn't know when. Wasn't just your face, was it? Wasn't just my face.

Thank you, Fabian. I don't think he needs reminding, he knows. Thank you for that. Yep. Say that again, Josh. I was going to say, I don't think you need to be reminded of what happened to you. You know, like a sausage on a spit was, uh, It was the phrase they chose to use, thank you for that, Ryan and Sarah. That was Sarah.

Yeah, no, I mean, it was, it was a, I knew, I knew that was going to come. I mean, my first day on set in season one, Ryan and Miguel took me into a trailer in, and spoke to me about the whole arc of it. And I was excited for that, really. I was excited to sort of feel that transformation that Egon goes through. and no, yeah, the hair and makeup team did a great job. How did that transformation? How did that exhaustive prosthetics process

inform the performance in the second half of the season? In more ways than I thought, to be honest, it sort of affected how I moved because it was such a tight, it was so tight on my face and I enjoyed that, actually. I felt that was really helpful because it restricted my movement. Also affected how I spoke.

And yeah, it's always good to me. be reminded of your, obviously you don't have that physical ailment. So it's nice to be physically reminded of it every time you try and move or open your mouth. So yeah, it helped in many ways. Matt, let's talk a little bit about the journey we saw Damon on the season. I mean, you're kind of cast out a little bit away from all your anchors from the first season. Yeah. Meeting some new folks. Great Bill Rankin and others. Right. Simon Russell Bill. Exactly. At the time of my life with, you know, what an actor and what a gent. He was he was wonderful.

So what were the unique challenges for you, you think, in this second season? Gosh, there's so many on this show, really. I, it's, you know, it was trying to make the madness or the journey of that specific really without sounding too sort of actuary about it, but trying to really root his descent and his kind of spiral into chaos and dreamland

and place it somewhere that felt like it made sense to me, really. But yeah, it was, and I just missed all my chums. It was about being on my own, apart from the great Simon Russell Bill, who was the best. In honor of the dreams and visions and nightmares, Damon, has anybody had a work-related

House of the Dragon Dream or Nightmare in the course? Yeah, a production. I get chased by a wig every fucking night of my line. I do feel like we need an extra seat for the wig tonight. It's just the honor. I didn't know when that would come. Within the first five minutes, obviously, yeah. But, I mean, this is such an all-encompassing show.

It's a long production. Do you find that you eat, sleep, and breathe, House of the Dragon? It's hard to separate life from work when you're in the midst of it. Emma? My experience of it's a bit like cohabiting with someone. Like I have a lodger, you know? Like, there's like me in my house,

and then there's sort of, you just occasionally, like, hear someone, I don't know, like using the bread in the kitchen or something. That's my experience. It's like, yeah, it's like that you have to make additional space in your life for another body. And that's, you know, that's not unpleasant. Sometimes I like my privacy, but broadly, yeah, quite sociable. Rainier is obviously on quite a journey of grief throughout this season,

especially like we start off in that first episode of the season. And you have to convey a lot without a lot of actual dialogue. Did you find that challenging, freeing? Honestly, when I read the first episode and Reneira says almost nothing, she says one line, I found it very, very moving as a and very eloquent way of describing grief I think yeah like I don't know

I was I was sort of learning about bereavement for the first time and I think there's some I think language tends to break down around the loss of someone I think

yeah I think a lot of I mean grief is like a is like the landscape of that experience changes is so much and so continually, but so much of it is kind of pre-verbal or non-verbal.

And I was, yeah, I just found that it was very moving. That there was no adequate language available. Felt like very eloquent writing to me. Yeah. Steve, for you, I mean, there's obviously a lot of grief for your character as well throughout this season. Is that a through-on for you you found in season two? Yes, I think I would echo what Emma has said. When I read what was going to

happen, I sort of thought, okay, I better find out a little bit more about grief, close up, you know. And the thing that I kept hearing from things that I'd read and so forth is that it can come in waves, that you think you're over it, that you think you're fine, And then something happens, and there it is again. And then trying to portray that in a scene, which isn't about that. Or the scenes with my illegitimate son, when he tells me how he really feels. Or the fact that all the time that we've known call is he is someone who, whenever there's an emotional problem, he escapes to the sea. In this case, he can't because his ship is in a state of disrepair.

So he's left having to face up to this whole, his whole shenanigan, this whole thing, he's the one person who, because I often say to people that the only time you see call is completely and honestly as himself is in the scenes with his wife. And then she's gone and now it's like, oh, now he's left adrift or what's he going to do? And so it was a very interesting exploration for me

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Learn more at SAP.com slash uncertainty Ryan and Sarah I'm curious like how much of your writing the arcs of these stories

in season two was informed by what you saw from your actors in season one. They show off what they can do you see the relationships in front of you how they develop

did that inform sort of the arcs of the characters at all in season two? It definitely does and once we get to I mean it's one of the great privileges

of working on television as opposed to film, I think, is you get to spend years settling into each other, getting to know each other. And I mean, you know, I mean, when Emma's talking about the episode where Reneera doesn't speak at all, I mean, we had these conversations in the room. It's like, can we do this? Is this going to be weird?

And we ultimately went with it, I think, because we trust Emma as an actor and we know, like, okay, they can pull this off. Like, we know that we can give things to them. And, I mean, I don't know, you, Ryan, Now definitely knowing all of you guys so well, like I can hear your voices in my head and I can sort of go, oh, this is gonna be really fun

to give to this actor or to see them play this. Like I think we, the more, the better we get to know each other, I think the better the show gets and vice, the same with the directors. And we're all sort of, I think, in a stage right now, coming into season three, where we, it feels like we're all pulling together and we sort of are in the same lane

and we all know each other now. And so, yeah, it's exciting. Yeah, I mean, So much, we, you know, season three is, you know, essentially done. We start in a couple of weeks. Done writing. Done writing. Yes, not very much not done.

Let's show the first episode. We have it, right? Yeah. But, I mean, for me, I found, and I found this with my previous television series, as you go along, like, as the characters, as the actors embodied the characters, it actually becomes much easier to write in a more interesting way. because you get to know everybody really well. And, I mean, I found season three not easy. I mean, it's never easy, but it's just much, there's much more shape and depth to it right out of the gate

because you're writing for people, whereas season one, we large, Sarah and I largely wrote, it's like a novel because there was nobody. I mean, we had, you know, we had archetypes and ideas of, you know, types and things that we wanted, but you're largely writing, you know, something without a face and a name to it. And now that, you know, season three, because so much of the cast of characters has been solidified,

I mean, there are some new characters this season, some major new characters this season, but I would say, you know, 85% of them, we already knew who they were. And it just makes it much more rewarding to write it because when you write a scene between, you know, when you write a Damon and Renera scene or a Renair and an Allison scene, you can hear the voices of those characters performing it. You know, you know what everybody can do here. and it really can push the writing in a way that maybe wouldn't have happened if you were writing a season one script.

Speaking of Renira and Alicent, Olivia, let's talk about that very key relationship. I mean, you obviously felt a connection with each other working together, but like then you see with the fan, yeah, nothing, nothing, there was nothing. Body language experts, watch, no. Were you surprised, though?

Have you been surprised by like, I've talked to Emma a little bit about the fandom around the relationship on screen. It must be shocking to see sort of how it took on the life of its own, to see how the fans have just really embraced that relationship. Yeah, it's been amazing and really beautiful. I've never been sort of a part of like a character and something that takes on a mythology of its own.

And I think that's really gorgeous. And I love how embracing a lot of people have been for our characters, because, I mean, you know, Alison's tricky. She's tricky. But in terms of our relationship, it's been gorgeous to sort of play with just the intricacies and just how layered and hard and sticky the relationship is now, especially in season two,

but also like the deep relief and comfort, that they'd still find in each other. So it's beautiful writing and really gorgeous to play that. And it's so few and far between, because Emma and I barely saw each other last season, we'd have like stolen moments in the car park, and that was about it. I was gonna say, I mean, some of the most key relationships

in the show, particularly in this last season, the characters didn't share a lot of screen time with each other, whether it's Renera and Alicent, or Renera and Damon. Is that something that raises the stakes when you're doing like one of two scenes with Matt over a season, this is going to be, all eyes are going to be on this scene. We have to convey a lot in a little time.

Yeah, 100%. I had exactly the same thing. I think Reneira kind of exists between two poles, and they're like here and here. And it was a challenge for me to go into a season where neither of those poles are easily accessible. and it's like there's there's there's a you're aware of a of a like broader pressure on the scene on you know that it has to deliver a certain a level i think often this is what i guess sir and ryan

was saying the show um tries to deliver dramatic scale within kind of small spaces or something and so that's a challenge but also like personally i you know chariot I cherish those scenes and so there's a sort of personal stakes there too yeah Matt what do you recall about your climactic scene with

Emma and bending the knee at last I just sort of love being around Emma on him like yeah just yeah it's I think we we sort of look forward to those

moments right not to speak on behalf of you but yeah And, yeah, you know, I really missed them, actually, this season, I had to say. But when we were back together, it was good. It's got to hit a cup and be angry and, you know. Sarah, I believe you wrote that episode, Sarah, correct? That's episode eight. Yes.

And writing that final. Yes. Yes, I can confirm. But again, like, that's a moment. That's like, it's been building to that moment. What we're, I mean. You mean specifically, Reneer and Allison? Yeah, and I think that when we talked about it in theory,

it was like we wanted it to be like this war is boiling and there are these armies marching and men with swords and spears, but really the most consequential thing that happens is these two women meeting in a room and hashing their personal shit out in a way that is going to be incredibly consequential later on. And so, like, while all this Sturm and Drang is happening,

that like, yeah, I mean, I mean, we've talked a lot, Ryan, right? About, like, those moments in history, the things that aren't written, like the things that we can never know. So it's like, we know that this war happened, but we didn't know that it got kicked off because, like, some guy woke up one day and had a stomach ache and felt shitty and it got into a fight with somebody over some things too.

And, you know what I mean? It's like those little things that are personal that happen that we can never actually know, you know, you never know how much of something, how much of history happened because of some petty, you know somebody was got their ego bruised or whatever it was so i think we definitely were going for there and sort of at the end it was it's like all these armies are marching but the real important thing is that these two people have have come together and managed to communicate with

each other and that's going to change everything so yeah it was really it was a fun thing to write and also it's just when you come into that writing it's just it's fun it's going like yes It's going to be Emma and Olivia in a room just, like, you know, circling each other, and it's going to be amazing. Like, it's a fun thing to write. Fabian, let's talk about Kristen Cole and his exceptional duties as Hand of the King. Are you defensive about that? Do you defend Kristen to your dying day and his actions?

That's my lawyer. You know, I guess you're always trying to, like, justify a, everything in your own head as to why he makes the decisions that he makes. And I think there's a lot, you know, we talked a bit just now about episode eight. And, you know, there's a scene between Gwain and Kristen Cole where he sort of, I feel shares probably his most enlightened thoughts about kind of the life that he's been living. I think it's weird, you know, because he's a character who so wants to be away from, like, this place that he's been sort of firmly put in the middle of,

love in a job that I don't think he's particularly suited to. And I think there's this like pull of like, I don't think he wants to leave because he's got these incredibly overwhelming feelings for Alison, but then I also think there's this huge desire to get out and no longer be sort of confined to this like very intense Machiavellian world that he just doesn't belong in at all. So it's, but yeah, do I condone everything? I don't know.

But you know, I try. Do you all envision yourselves as the hero of this story? Ewan, can you make the case for Eamond as the hero of House of the Dragon? No, not a very strong one. I don't know. I think Eamon definitely feels like he is the hero of his own story. But like, as you saw in that episode there, like after what he does to Egon, it kind of raises the question of like, you know, who does this kid bow to?

you know what what is his agenda you know he took out one of the major players on his own team on team green a major asset in killing another dragon and so it's like who is this kid serving um and i guess you'll never know what what do you think would surprise an actor about what it's like to be on the set of this i mean obviously the scale it doesn't get any bigger than house of the dragon But what would you say to an actor that maybe what they wouldn't realize about the vibe on these sets? It's a lot of laughter, I think. Like, genuinely, like, I don't know that I've laughed more on a job, like, than I have, like, during the filming of these, like, two seasons.

Also, Fabian, he's, like, trapped in a tin can. So when he goes, he's just, like, juddering, making so much noise. And, like, sound is just like, Fabian, just get it together. Honestly, watching him eat his lunch is just the three-act play in itself. it's the best it's just honestly like walking in every day I sort of feel this huge

like this feeling within me that I need to get out of this fucking armour just for like two minutes so I can have lunch and if you want to do anything it's like a 45 minute ordeal to get anywhere his long suffering costs you guys

absolutely it's like 19 people trying to like take this armour off at any given moment babian tripped down some stairs hasn't it? Honestly, sounding like a drum kit, falling out on the fence. To be fair, Reese actually threw me down the stairs,

like, launched me because I don't, you can't really, you're sort of, your legs feel very small in a sort of, when you're in this sort of square box. Anyway, so. The floodgates are open. The rest of the panels devoted to your armor, I'm afraid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That being said, when I talk to you, Tom and Matt, I feel like the wig still was the, was the one that still came up the most. That's still, Have you thought of nobody... You can't hear any more about this wig. No, I love the wig.

I love the wig. I struggle with the ball cap. Just, it's a private thing, don't worry. But... Does Damon have a crew cut this year? Is there a new hairstyle? This is why I'm glaring this out and dyed it blonde and see if I can get away.

We're not doing it. I remember one of the first days we were talking about the bald cap. And Matt was like, mate, they've given me a silk one. You need to ask for a silk one. So then I went out of makeup the next day. I was like, I hear tell of this silk bald cap. They were like, oh, fucking hell, not you as well.

So in the end, it didn't work. In the end, I just shaved my head, and so did you, didn't you? So I'll just stick it on like Velcro instead, you know? Does anybody here want to nominate a relationship, a character relationship that you're not involved in that you love watching on screen? Two characters that you love to watch, just from afar, as a fellow actor, as a fan, you guys are participants,

and fans of the show, I would assume. I have stuff to do with him, but Laris Strong, Matthew Needs. I think he's an absolute master at what he does. And it's a pleasure to share any moment on screen with him. But just as an audience member, I love watching his choices and what he decides to do with Laris, yeah. I'm excited for Gail's relationships coming up in season three and all being spooky and I'm excited for that.

Gail, who plays Alice Rivers. Of course. Can I just say, low-key, my funniest relationship to watch is between Reneira and her handmade Alinda Massey. She's low-key, an absolute dick, too, in every single scene. And it makes me laugh so much. She just doesn't like fath. Yeah.

Sarah, what are the most challenging scenes to write in House of the Dragon? is there a type of scene is there uh is there is again is it the spectacle the intimate moments what are you i mean there's the spectacle i'm like here ryan like insert action here yeah insert action what i didn't i was not in the room one day and i think i received room notes with uh it was a description of something that was happening and i think this was a season three thing and then um the room notes are all you know it's a black and white you know word document and then there was just a thing highlighted in pink with music notes on either side of it that said have fun Ryan in it it was a big war it was like big battle stuff yeah um i think the hardest

things to write though honestly are the small council scenes yeah because there's like eight people in there yeah every single one of them has an agenda there's a ton of information that you're trying to feed into the audience but there's like everyone's got their thing going on you want to make sure like you know but it's better when everybody has an agenda it's when yeah yeah because those scenes are like exposition vehicles you know but if you can that's the trick is like giving everybody the they have an angle thing that they they're angle though because then then it's a character scene versus just like here's all this stuff going on here's the news update for westrose yeah yeah so many times it's like you're trying to get everything out that you have to

happen and it's four pages long and it's like oh shit we forgot to give lines to this guy like you're trying to it's it's very um not jenga tower but like like Like you're sort of trying to, there's a million moving parts and people are looking at each other and there's always, yeah, it's a free for all in there. Yeah, they're great fun. I mean, for me, I think, yes to that, I think, I think they're the, the scenes that for me are the most challenging for, you know, for all of us are the scenes that are kind of what I would say, traditional. Yeah. I know. Lean into it, Ryan.

and lean into it. The scenes that I would say are kind of traditional genre scenes, fantasy scenes. So, you know, we have this thing where like a bunch of people in the show we've seen talk about, you know, the Song of Ice and Fire and Vassar is passing it on

and then we saw Nira pass it on to Jace. And, you know, just as an example of like, I would say that is House of the Dragon as it's at its most fantasy where it's basically like leaning in and saying, okay, remember everybody, this isn't just a medieval history, there's a fantasy element to it.

But because our show, I like to see our show as something that is a genre show that's subverting the genre at the same time, it's not shying away from that stuff and not being embarrassed about that stuff, which I think other fantasy shows have done. We're very, you know, we're a fantasy show

and we're proud of it. But how do you dramatize that in such a way that doesn't feel like you're, you know, you're doing the sort of, young adult fantasy novel thing and how do you make it driven by character and make it surprising and unexpected while also delivering on this thing

that the audience loves, which is the idea of prophecy and myth and legend and I think those are very tricky to do because you want it to be there but you also want it to be great and interesting and unexpected at the same time. Well, I think, and again, I think this episode is a great reminder also.

I mean, the dragon stuff in this episode is so amazing. It's amazingly rendered, but also the acting that you guys do. And we have a bunch of Dragonriders on the stage here. Well done, everybody. I mean, like, conveying so much.

I mean, I'm sad that Eve's not with us. I mean, what she conveys in those unspoken moments in what must be like a very, like, you know, a tough situation, like a hard situation to kind of like be a pure actor. And she's essentially sitting on a buck and bronco from like Saddleback Ranch. Like, you know, like, I mean, that's what it is. with like a grip

with a leaf blower blowing it in your face and it's the least immersive experience that I think you can offer and coming soon to a theme park near yeah yeah we should

I said we should charge a hundred pounds and just let people go up there and then we could pay for season four do any of the dragon riders want to attest to that what's it like to be up there and is it easy to lose yourself

I mean that that takes commitment The leaf blower is true. Two guys with leaf blowers like, and the jet wash. And the jet wash. That was great. You're just sort of hanging from a hydraulic crane. For 10 hours.

The camera whipping around in your face. With lunch. With lunch. With lunch. 20 minute break somewhere in there. I mean, not to bring it back to Fabian, but he also had a fake horse. Hold on.

Oh, yeah, let's go. Let's talk about that. Sarah, don't do you by that. Hold on. My hundred and twenty-two hours of horse riding lessons. Actually, they did come in. I did ride for brief moments. And I'll tell you something, you know,

it might look like I'm not working quite hard on that horse that's walking, but the armor itself, just saying, Just saying. Who among your amazing cast asks the most questions of you? Who's got the most perhaps notes, ideas in a helpful way? You know what? I have to say our show is...

I don't know if they're here tonight. That's convenient. Let's rank this group. No, but I mean, our show is... Of the shows that I have worked on, our show is unique in this. I mean, we do read-throughs before the show, and we actually, I mean, before we start shooting and we actually welcome thoughts.

And we, it feels, it's a very collaborative medium in which, I mean, it's not, it's not, okay, what do you want? We'll do it. But it's more like, let's talk about where this comes from. And is there anything that's missing? And we sort of welcome that collaboration because we are working with really smart people who have thoughts. And the cast is so huge that it's like,

we're not going to be able to think of every tiny detail. So it's really useful to, you know, have our actors come and talk to us about, you know, how they feel about stuff. So, yeah, we actually, I mean, and Ryan, it's like most showrunners don't do this. But you actually, you know, I think Ryan's really great at, like, whoever's got a great idea. Like, you have, you're very welcoming of all of that. And I think that's a good. Yeah, thanks, Sarah. Yeah, I mean, I think.

You got it. I think because of the nature of the show, and it takes so long to shoot, I mean, between prep and shooting, it's a year. You actually do have a really long time to, I mean, you're shooting a scene every day, so obviously you're turning cards over that we can't go back and do that again.

But we're in kind of constant dialogue the entire year with not only writers and cast, but also directors involved with it. And everybody, it's all dimensionalizing. Like the scripts are two-dimensional. because it's just words on a page. And then the director brings their kind of directorial vision to it. That adds a dimension.

The cast brings the dimension of embodying the role and bringing all the nuance and the things that aren't written on the page they bring to the scene. And I think it's that it's just being, you know, being, this is a collaborative medium. So I think, and it's a true multimedia, multi-medium where it's not just writing, it's not just acting, it's not just directing.

It's set design and costume design. All those things coming together. And I think just being open to that and taking advantage of the fact that it's a very, it's a slow process making the show. And there are multiple opportunities to be in dialogue with everybody, you know, all these guys and everybody that makes the show to fully realize it. And it's Babian. It's his horse, really. Fake horse had lots of questions. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside.

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The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming only on Disney Plus. What is like the smallest, there doesn't have to be small production detail that's been helpful to any of you on set, whether it's a piece of costuming, a wig, it's not going to be the wig. We're not going to go there, Matt. But because, I mean, the production design, the costumes, everything about this is so meticulous. It's top-notch in every respect. It all must be helpful, but is there anything any of you can pinpoint that's really, like, kind of locked you into a character?

They've got these very comfortable chairs that you can sort of fold back on, and in my armour it's really unbelievably comfortable for me during lunchtime. Right. And I'm really grateful that they got those in for Seaton, too. They're from IKEA. Yeah, I have heard. We are going to take that microphone away from you, Fabian, if you're not good. But, I mean, getting into Wardrow, I mean, the iPatch does 10% of the work, I would imagine, at least.

Pretty much all of it as well. Yeah, the iPach is the finishing touch, you know, with all of, you know, Amanda Knight's incredible artistry and Caroline McCull's costumes. Like, they're just, like every department on this, like, they are at the top of their game. And there's just this, there's just a massive amount of passion from Ryan. And it bleeds through all of those departments. And yeah, and as an actor, you just want to help realize the vision of the writers and all the directors. And that passion's contagious. I'd love to give it a little bit more love to a couple relationships we haven't touched on tonight.

I mean, again, it's featured in this episode. The steam between Alasant and Agon is just kind of, I mean, you kind of break poor Agon's spirit. How dare you? No, he had a comment, he deserves it. But can you talk a little bit? What do you recall about that moment? It does feel like, I mean, was that a key moment for you,

Tom, in terms of like, it does feel like there's a shift in a realization for you in that moment. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the definition of kicking a dog when it's down. I really enjoyed that day. did you yeah do you remember shut up I think it helped if anything anyway that's a story for another time

no I thought I enjoyed that and what's great about working with live is it always feels different and you know we try something and there were little nuances little moments that were working really clicking in and we'd keep those and it was kind of an unspoken dialogue

we were having each other and it just felt like we locked in and yeah and for the character for Egon, poor guy I just feel eternally sorry for him I love him to bits

and I think he's an absolute tragic case and I just want the best for him Josh we're all rooting for that poor guy what a sweetie Olivia, do you have a perspective on that relationship, that's seen in particular? I mean, Egon's her biggest disappointment, and that's really hard to sort of like, sorry, but he... It's tough love, yeah.

I mean, yeah, so it's, and I think it's really hard to sort of, like, confront that realization as a parent, even though I'm not one, and I'm trying to act like I am. and Tom is, you know, my age. But hey, it's fantasy, it's fine, it's fine. Dragons, it's okay, yeah. Embrace the fantasy. But, yeah, I mean, you know, she had all these hopes and she thought she could steer and mold this king from the wings, but he just, he's incapable of taking direction

and his big ego and his massive, massive, you know, uh, insecurities just, you know, sort of overtake. Emma, could you speak perhaps a little bit about what you think Renaira sees him asaria? Yeah, I, she's really whole. Well, there's that. I really like, I think the way that that relationship is plotted

is really smart and really interesting because they begin as two people who are, I think, deeply suspicious of one another. And they're both women who have developed skill sets to, I think, in the main navigation, and manipulate men. And those skills, yeah, those skill sets are not actually designed to be used on other women.

And so there's also like a, there's like a vulnerability. There's like a great threat there, I think. Certainly from Reneera's perspective. And I think she's surprised by the intimacy that develops. I think Reneira is like a, she she can't survive well as a sort of sole agent she requires she requires partnership for survival and when and you sort of I think see this a bit across both series

like when one person goes when one person's out another person's in and it's quick it's like she she couples with people she sort of drags people really really close and you know ultimately ask too much and relationships I think in the case of Messiah, it's like, it's, yeah, I think it comes as a surprise. I think, and it's almost, maybe it's like a little healthier than some of the relationship she's had previously. You know, there's like mutual respect involved.

It's like a radical new experience. Yeah. I would imagine, I mean, you know, we're talking. this is just, you know, a fraction of your ensemble. It's a sprawling show, and that's a challenge for you guys. But it's also, like, what an advantage to kind of, like, on each episode to, like, mix and match and to kind of, like, collide all of these conflicting views, these complex, shades of gray against each other, and then see what emerges.

Yeah, exactly. And that's, I mean, I think that's the, you know, the thing the original series Game of Thrones did really well was it sort of built these relationships and that it separated people through space and time and then would also bring them back together and they would come back together and having experienced these things on the battlefield or whatever by the pressures of the war and the situation they were in

and they come back together, changed people, are different, slightly evolved, and the relationship would change the result and I think we've had a lot of fun playing with that and also recombining people that, you know, we saw Masaria interact a lot, with Damon in season one. So we got a sense of, you know, her character

and Damon's character through that. But then you put Masaria in contact with, you know, Reneira, who also has a relationship, Damon. And they're more mature characters at that point because they're both older and have experienced more. And it just makes it more interesting. And I don't know what the stats are on season two, but Sarah did a intimidating count at some point for season three.

But we have 19 point-of-view characters in the show. And when we say point of view, it means, like, a character can have their own scene without another one of the characters in it. And we try to, we try to be fairly rigid about who are POV characters in the show because it helps keep your arms around it. So it doesn't feel like you're all over the field all the time. And it feels like you're seeing the show through a certain POV. But it's a lot, it's exciting because it's a lot to service. And it gives you a lot of opportunity to do those recombinations. But it reminds you how, you know, it's a multi, unsolving.

humble show in a big way, but it also demonstrates and dramatizes how the sprawl and breath and scope of this epic story that we're telling. Our writer's room boards basically look like those serial killer hunter bulletin boards with the threads and they're like, who and who and what's going on? The Charlie Day meme from Always Sunny. I would imagine also as the years go by, you're kind of warning more and more about how to adapt such dense material you know george's words george's world has such a density to it and like how to you know the license to change and not change what to what's important to to the television medium that

doesn't necessarily you know serve you to adapt what have you learned kind of like as you go into season three about adapt adaptation yeah i mean look it's a it's a constant uh it's a constant adventure and uh and i mean it really is you know it is our it is our it is is our cross to bear in a way because you're working with this beloved world and this beloved work, which is a history book. I mean, fire and blood, unlike the original series, which is a kind of traditional narrative, Fire and Blood is a history book. So it's these, it's these, in many times, sketches and descriptions of these historical events,

sometimes intentionally without context, because that is the way history comes. I was going to say it's kind of the opposite of dense, actually. The world is dense, but the information is not. necessarily yeah so and that's the thing and it's like we're trying to provide a an objective pov on a on a on a series of historical events that were described by three different you know fictional narrators and they conflict with each other and whatever so we're trying to find this this is our through line you know the writers sarah and i are through line through this very complex thing and our interpretation of that is going to be different than you know this person's

interpretation that person's interpretation so i think that's the thing is like you know keeping on that and keeping your true north through through it all and and for me it's always been you know i've been a fan of these books for 25 years i mean i discovered these books in in the year 2000 and uh and and immediately you know had this like you know resonant bond with them and i've lived in it and i've studied i've listened to all the audiobooks all of them uh i've read the books multiple times and i've read the books multiple times and I feel like I've lived in the world so my my approach to it has always been what is the show that I want to see as a successor to Game of Thrones which I'm also a giant fan of as a show and the book and that's been the true north of it and there really is no one way

to adapt this there is no one true adaptation of this particular story because of the nature of the way it's written and and look there's a constant dialogue between us it's it's collaboration and compromise all the time i mean sarah and i have different point of views on things and and and sometimes those come together in synergy and sometimes it's just it's you know it's going to the going to the other writers and saying okay who's you know who's right and who's wrong here and and it's that it's thing and we talked about earlier is listening and finding your way through it so as we sit here this cast is just reunited very recently and we're heading into season three have you all read material have you read their work for season three should we just

do a table read of episode one right now, just to like dust off the cobwebs, they're here. You're asking them who did their homework. Yeah, exactly. Who made requests going into season three, and who did you honor, who's requested you actually honor? Emma, I know you talked to me about wanting a little action, wanting a weapon.

Yeah, yeah. As the dream come true, did you fulfill Emma's dream? Am I allowed to answer that? We're on very, very shaky ground here, Joe. Let's be very careful. I go what I wanted, folks. I remember season two, Olivia was just like, please, please, can I go to Spain?

We made that happen. Yeah, because everyone else got to go to Spain, yeah, and have fun. Yeah, season one, everyone just all had so much fun. She's like, I've been in the Red Keep for so long. I remember we were like, Olivia, you're going to get to go to Spain, but we're going to hit you in the face with a fish. She was like, fine, like, let's do this.

I was like, yeah, deal. And, yeah, you fucking. and hit me in the face of the fish. It's like, the guy you hit me in the face of the fish was a pro-cricotter. My head swiveled. Wasn't that like one? Nothing but the very best.

It was the first take was the best take. I think you just hit you right in the first time he hit my crotch and I was like, higher up. And then the second time he got me square in the jaw. That's a very excellent way to misdirect my question about season three. Well done, guys.

Is there anything you want to tease? We're going to wrap this up now. Is there anything you can say? sure the goat is back the goat is back Dell yeah I mean

I think the exciting thing about season three is that it's I mean season two is huge season three is huger in in many ways and there are like I was doing a little count in my head

because I knew this question was coming but I think there are there are sort of by my count by my quick count on stage don't hold me this but there are four sort of major events from the book that we get to adapt and realize in three dimensions

this season. I think that's really exciting on like a scope and scale sort of perspective. And I think it's the thing the show does really well and I mean the things that we're building and it's mind-boggling. But I think the thing that I'm most excited about and I've talked about this a lot is from a dramatic perspective is that we got to have a little fun this season

and there's a conceptual episode this season that I'm really excited about that Sarah wrote, that's amazing, and that's all I'm going to say about it. But, you know, I think a conceptual episode, meaning that it isn't in the sort of traditional vernacular of what we have sort of laid out as the structure of a traditional, you know, House of the Dragon episode.

And it's very character-driven, but it's just, I think it's really great, and I'm really excited to see it rendered because the things that excite me the most on the show are the storytelling the writing the you know letting letting the actors go and and uh do the things that they're best at and um anyway so it and i think that's a great thing about what we do well as delivering on the big you know spectacle scale but also doing you know doing the chamber drama in a really interesting way i'm excited about the bottle episode about christin and his

armor that's coming they've just teased coming soon guys next season um look the degree of difficulty on the show is off the charts and you guys truly accomplish accomplish and it's in no small part because of this remarkable cast. So thank you guys so much for being with us tonight. Thank you, Josh. Everybody, thank you for coming out tonight. House of the Dragon. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives.

Yeah, like, Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host unspriced. A Poole, a podcast where you talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

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