Happy Sad Confused - James Corden

Episode Date: December 27, 2022

James Corden is coming to the end of one adventure (THE LATE LATE SHOW) and embarking on a new one, namely a full time return to acting (beginning with his turn in the new Prime series, MAMMALS). He joins Josh to talk about it all on this debut on HAPPY SAD CONFUSED! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to Josh's youtube channel here! Check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Thanks to our sponsors! WILDGRAIN -- You can get $30 off the first box - PLUS free Croissants in every box - when you go to Wildgrain.com/happysad to start your subscription. EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/happysad Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. This message comes from BetterHelp. Can you think of a time when you didn't feel like you could be yourself? Like you were hiding behind a mask. BetterHelp online therapy is convenient, flexible, and can help you learn to be your authentic self so you can stop hiding. Because masks should be for Halloween fun, not for your emotions.

Take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelpH-H-E-L-P.com. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, James Corden, on the end of his late-night run and his new series, Mammals. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harrowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Man, we've had a really exciting run lately on the podcast with first-time guests that have been on the list. for quite some time. And that really fits the bill with James Corden. I've had a long, interesting kind of relationship with James over the years that you're going to come to learn about in the course of this conversation. And I'll give a little context in this introduction, too. Way back when, yeah, let's just get right to it, shall we? Because this is a fun story that I've told often, but maybe not publicly until now. But since James mentioned it, in the course of the conversation, I'll mention it here. So way back when, eight plus years ago, James Corden, this, I wouldn't say up-and-coming actor,

he was already a Tony winner, and he was really revered thanks to roles in things at the time, like Into the Woods and roles on stage like History Boys, I mean, so many great performances. But he was still kind of an unknown quantity when it came to being a talk show host, and he was plucked out of the acting world to host the late-late show. And it was an exciting, interesting choice by CBS that clearly worked out for all involved. At that time, I actually did have some conversations with The Wait Late Show about joining the team over there when they were just starting up. And it was a really exciting potential proposition, which kind of, I wouldn't say, culminated, but it was certainly punctuated by me meeting James out of all things the Golden Globes. on a red carpet. Yeah, it just gets weirder and weirder. He was very kind to me and was very

flattering and we had a couple chats about potentially joining the show in some capacity. And it would have meant a lot of different lifestyle choices, including moving to Los Angeles, including kind of sacrificing the on-camera portion of my career at the time. And so for a variety of reasons I decided to stick it out in New York and ride the wave that I was on. And here we are, eight plus years later. It was a really interesting full circle moment to meet up with James as he's coming to the end of this journey now and beginning a new one. And I don't know where I'm at in my journey, but it continues and it evolves. And I'm very pleased with, I think, how both of our lives and careers have gone. And this was a great chat.

We'd never honestly had this kind of conversation or really any significant conversation in the interminute years. So it was a treat. This was recorded at 92 NY, and it's on the occasion not only of the end of his late show, late show, to be precise, which is coming in just a few months, but also with the debut on Amazon Prime of a really fascinating new six-episode series called Mammals, James is front and center. And it's a really, as we say in the conversation, it's a hard.

show to summarize. Suffice it to say, it comes from Jez Butterworth, who is an extraordinary playwright and screenwriter. James Gordon is at the center of it, and it is about a man who is at a crossroads himself in his relationship, suffering some loss, suffering some betrayal, and really having to make some big choices, surrounded by a really fascinating cast. Everyone from Sally Hawkins to Tom Jones, of all people, is in this show. big swings in the show throughout, different kind of tonal shifts, but it will keep you guessing and will keep you involved, I guarantee. And it's six episodes, guys. It's on prime. Give it a shot. And it reminds you what a fine actor James is not only in the comedic and musical space,

but as a dramatic actor too. And I'm really excited to see James return to acting in a full-fledged way. I'm sure he's going to be doing stage work again. I hope he does it in New York so I can see him in person here. But, you know, kudos to him on a really stellar run. So this was a really fun, exciting opportunity to meet up with him and to, look, I'm also like a student of late night. I grew up revering everyone from Conan and Letterman. And to see it evolve and to see the new wave, it was a treat to kind of pick his brain a little bit of how he's been able to achieve what he has. So a really fun one. James Corden on the podcast today, the usual reminders, If you want to watch this, you can watch it right now on YouTube.com slash Josh Horowitz.

Subscribe to our page so you don't miss a thing. If you want the early access and the discount codes and all the fun stuff, go to patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. Follow me on social media, Joshua Horowitz. Those are all the big reminders, right? I'm sure there's others. But you're here for the James Corden chat. I hope you guys enjoy this as much as I did.

And here is James Corden at a really pivotal, exciting moment in his life, the end of one adventure and the beginning of another. Here's me and James. Hi, guys. Thank you all so much for coming out on this rainy New York night. You're in for a treat. This is, of course, our latest edition of Happy Say I Confused Live. I love doing these up 92 NY with a homegrown. an audience as a New Yorker. It pleases me to no end. And it really pleases me because this is

a first-time guest on the podcast. A gentleman I have such admiration for because, what, for the last eight years, I believe? He's been making it look easy night after night. He's coming to the end of a phenomenal run as the host of the late late show. But in addition, you know he is a phenomenal actor of stage and screen, a Tony Award winner. And the star of this amazing new show on Prime Mammals, which you all should check out if you haven't already. We're in for a fun night with Mr. James Corden. Please give it out. Thank you.

It's a thrill. So let's talk, first of all. So this show, this new endeavor, is striking and it's not striking to me because you, unlike your brethren, late night, you were an actor first. We're going to get to the late night show, but that was the anomaly. You are a born and bred actor, and you've made a point of not trying, but keeping acting as a primary occupation even during this very weighty day job. Was that important to you over the last eight years to kind of figure out how to fit? that in and make that still a priority for you. Yes, I mean, look, if I'm being honest, which I intend to be tonight.

Why is there so much more energy? I probably, if I'm honest, and I think I knew this at the time, probably said yes to too many things that came my way. I essentially, I think, almost said yes to almost. and everything because I love acting. I love it and I love working with directors and I love being a member of a cast. I really like being in a cast, I think, more than I like hosting a show on my own.

And not that you ever do anything on your own, any of these things, but you know what I mean. And the reason for doing that was I always knew. I knew from minute one that when I took this job to host this show, I always knew it was an adventure and not a final destination. I was so certain that that was the case. I knew it had to be. And so, yeah, I think you're right.

I did probably do a lot of things because I didn't want it to be a shock. I didn't want to finish hosting the show. And I'm aware that it still will. be to some people, but I didn't want it to feel like, huh? You're doing what? Yeah. Okay. And, you know, so as much as I could, I mean, look, I never thought, I never thought that when I started hosting the show that a part like this would come my way whilst I was doing it, written by a writer like Jess Butterworth who wrote the show, I didn't, I actually thought there's a strong chance something like this will never come my way after this. And I'd

made my piece with that. And I thought, well, if I hope it will, I think it's going to take a few years of sitting in the silence and waiting to be somebody's interesting idea to come along. And it kind of blew me away when it came along in the middle of it, really. Yeah. Is that partially because, and I'm sure this audience knows, but Jess Butterworth, I mean, a fascinating resume as an accomplished playwright. We were talking backstage. I mean, this is a guy that I saw first Jerusalem on the way with Mark Rylance, and yet also, as you were saying, writes Bond movies, Indiana Jones,

and can kind of do everything. It's an extraordinary career as a writer. I think it's almost unmatched, really. Normally, the sort of road from Tony Award-winning playwright moving into film is, as you know, sort of A-24 Fox Searchlight movie, what you'd call a smaller sort of awards fair sort of film, Whereas he has these plays which are extraordinary.

They are, I mean, watching Jerusalem for me was a kind of life-changing experience, actually, and I don't say that lightly. And then to write a play like Jerusalem, a play like Mojo or the Ferryman, and then also, yeah, right, like two Bond movies, the New Indiana Jones, Ford versus Ferrari, and countless punch-ups on Cruella or all these other movies, it is a sort of unmatched career, really. And that's why I think the show is interesting and feels unique

because it's very, very small. It's very small, French music. And yet there are so many twists and turns that it has something of a sort of who'd done it, thriller about it. And you can see him pulling on all of his, all of the things that he's done in his career. How soon into reading the material did you know you were in? were interested. I mean, is this one of those things where it is, for those that haven't seen

the show, it's six episodes, and it keeps you on your toes, to say the least. It is a hard show to summarize. It's almost impossible. Yeah, I'm not going to even try. No, it is. It's really hard to even sort of think or talk about, but like, what I will say is, when I read episode one, I thought, it's kind of my feeling reading episode one is I think the feeling that you have when you watch episode one, which is five minutes in, you're like, okay, I know what this show is. And five minutes later, you go, oh, no, it's not that, it's this. And then 10 minutes after that, you go, okay, I have no idea what it's it.

I'm just going to go on the ride and just, yeah, yeah. And then he just proceeds to constantly kind of pull the rug from under you at the end of every, of every episode. Yeah, he's a, I mean, I think he is as good a writer as, as any who's working today, I really, really do. Essentially, the start of the show is Jamie, my character and his wife, Armandine, have gone on a baby moon. She's pregnant, and it's a sort of last hurrah, and they've gone to this gorgeous cabin in Cornwall.

They are as in love as two people could ever be. And the next thing that happens, essentially, is that they lose their baby, and it's heartbreaking. And he goes to the hospital and tells her that he made a deal with God, that when they took her away into the operating theatre, he got onto his knees and he prayed. And she says, but you don't believe in God? He goes, I know I don't.

It's complete bollocks. But I did. I prayed and I told him that I can't live without her. She is everything to me and I love her so much. And that's where they're at as a couple. So just before that moment there, he's been on the phone calling. She said, take my phone. He said I haven't got everyone's numbers and call friends and family and let them know.

So you see a jump cut of him speaking to various friends and family members and the weight of the grief of all of it is on his shoulders. And at that moment his phone beeps and he looks down his phone and he reads some very, very explicit texts from a man named Paul and realizes that his wife has been having an affair. and at the moment that he realizes that Tom Jones walks up next to him on a beach and then that bit

I mean it is look the absurdity of life where yes in a deeply profoundly moving existential crisis Tom Jones may appear like this is life in a way and there's no reason why he shouldn't at that moment right right yeah I mean you've said

this character is closest to you than any other character you've played. And that, I almost am worried, James, because this is a damaged, this is a sad man. This is a man dealing with a lot. Why do you say that? Because I think we're all damaged men dealing with a lot. Like, I don't, I don't know anyone who isn't. So, you know, like, you've got a podcast called Sad, Happy, Confused. I don't know what, you know what I mean. I don't know. I don't know what else we can, you know, so in that sense, I, uh, yeah, I feel like I knew him from the off. I appreciated his passion for life.

And look, I don't want this to sound like I'm just sort of in love with him, but I kind of am in love with him. He just kind of writes characters so well that he finds your voice. And I just, yeah, I know he is kind of similar to me in a sense, really. And I sort of, yeah, I'm aware that, like, you know, when I host a talk show, it's sort of, there. But I'm not really like that every day, you know. That would be so annoying. No, I get it.

To be, like, opening the fridge and being like, oh, my God! Stick around! You know. Yeah. Yeah, it would be annoying. You don't believe me. For the right context, it's perfect. But outside of it, no, no.

And it's great to see them in this amazing cast. This is not the first time you've worked with the great Sally Hawkins. That's a lovely kind of reunion. Yeah, Sally's a dear friend of mine. We first worked together in 2001 on a Mike Lee film called All or Nothing, which is as bleaker film. as you could ever find. There ain't many laughs in that one.

But it's, no, I mean, and we worked together. Well, we didn't actually, really actually in the film, in the finished movie, have really many scenes together at all, if at all, actually. But the way that Mike works, you rehearse and build your character for six months. Yeah. And I felt like anyone who saw Sally

just in those rehearsal rooms was like, oh wow I mean she's kind of extraordinary her I don't know what she has is an unquantifiable thing you just can't really put your finger on as to how she's doing it or how she's making it just so effortless if you watch shape of water I sort of can't believe

what she's doing with so few lines you know it's amazing and what she does in this show her character is arguably becomes the most interesting character in the show actually is as the show turns and it takes turns

into episodes five and six I defy you not to go I don't even really know what this show is but it really takes some twist and she's amazing in it and I you know I love her

I love her dearly as a friend and you know you can't help but learn when you're working with somebody like her I mean yes not to oversell the show but I always say this about whether it's TV or film I need the big swings I've seen enough doubles in TV and film over the years,

and this is a big swing. And there's nothing else like this on television. Thanks, man. That's so nice of you to say. It is almost impossible to talk about in a sense of it's just hard to describe. You're sort of on one level, you're like, it's just people talking about marriage.

And, you know, it's not making... Somebody said the other day that it's making some harsh statements about marriage, and I think Jez would disagree with that. He's a happily married man. but he said at this press thing that we did he said look i he said from what i can work out marriage marriage was created to carve up various pieces of land rights and stem the desire of women and we're still doing it and at the very least at the very least can we all just admit

that it might be silly and uh yeah i i hope people find it i'm very very proud of as I say. Read the clip we saw of you vomiting in front of the great Tom Jones. Is that the first time you vomited in front of a celebrity? Yes, I've never, I've never vomited. I've never vomited in front of a celebrity ever. No, that's never happened to me. Have you come close?

Do the nerves ever overtake you? I mean, the nature of your job is you're interacting with amazing talent, three or four amazing people a night. So that would not be a sustainable option, I suppose. But I don't really get nervous with, actors, sometimes with musicians, but not with actors. The people I get most nervous meeting are like West Ham United soccer players.

But genuinely, I am so starstruck if I meet like Jared Bowen much more than, you know, if you had to drop out on Monday or Sunday and I would have to step in and interview Daniel Craig, I'd be fine. All right, so take me back. Okay, young James, any family friends, would they, if I were talking to them, would any of them be surprised? Maybe the level of success might surprise them

because that's just a lottery kind of thing. Nobody achieves what you achieve. But the fact that you are an entertainer, would they have said, yes, we saw that. I don't think it's that they would have seen it. I think I was quite rambunctious in telling them that that's what I was going to do. I just don't remember a time.

I just... I honestly don't remember a time that I didn't want to perform in some capacity. I can't... Not a day. Not a day where it was like, oh, I think I'd like to be a soccer player or a fireman or...

Why is that so funny? Wow. Wow. I am terrible. No, I just lived for it. I loved it. It was, and I don't know if there's any performers in this room or young people who are interested in performing or acting,

but I absolutely felt everything that you feel now, which is like sometimes you feel like you don't understand. one understands that this isn't something you have a choice in. There is something in me that is compelling me to do this, and I cannot, I cannot shake it. And that's how I felt, that's how I felt the entirety of school. There was, there was nothing that could stop me trying to do it in any capacity. I mean, the unique thing about you is you have so many talents, so many interest, you can do so many things, there are different paths for you. There could have been different paths for you. You've taken different paths. I guess my question is, like, when you're 14

or 15, like, did you have a specific focus? Like, did you know what path to go on? Or were you kind of equal opportunity, wherever the opportunity is, I'm going to grab it? Or what was your mindset early on? Well, I think early on, probably, it was the theater. Because everything else just seems so out of reach. It just seems insane that you would even get to be on television. or let alone, like, make a film. But because I think, you know, I would be in every school play. I had drama clubs outside of school, singing, dancing. I used to go to an after-school drama club called the Jackie Palmer Stage School

where you would go after school to these lessons, but they also had like an agency where I would go up and audition for like paint commercials or the sound of music at Sadler's Wells and I never got a single job I never ever I didn't get a job from probably about 11 or 12 till I was 17

when I got my first job and I would probably go up for these like open castings once a week, once a fortnight but interestingly it was amazing and I don't know what was in the water in High Wickham at this moment but there was there was a patch where it was me and a couple of years below me was Eddie Redmayne

and a couple of years below that was Aaron Taylor Johnson and it's been incredible it's just amazing like seeing them like Eddie's won an Oscar everyone's saying that Aaron might be Bond and if he is that will be devastating to my sort of legacy in High Wyckham as it stands right now

I'm the biggest deal in High Wycom because we even went to the same school we went to Holmogreen Upper decades apart obviously and yes it's going to be a crushing blow Bond villain

a... I don't know I think I'm capable of a lot of things a bond villain I can't see anybody buying it I just feel like you've got to know your limits and I just can't

the idea of me swively around holding a pussy guy. People would be like, oh, this has gone too far now. What next? Martin Short's going to zip line in? The interesting thing about that, you mentioned some of your contemporaries is like everybody moves at their different pace, right? The success happens at different levels.

Yes. Like, were you behind ahead? Were you frustrated? Who experienced fame first? What was your trajectory versus some of your friends and temporaries? I don't know really in answer to, do you mean to those two specifically? It could be those two, or how you just generally felt in those early years.

Did you feel like you were behind or ahead of the curve or what? I think the biggest moment in terms of, it's almost impossible if you're an actor to, and you know you shouldn't, but you can't not compare yourself to other people that are around you. And that is a pointless exercise, but it's impossible not to. And if I could think about the time I've wasted, that I've wasted in my life, wasted time of sitting, thinking about where, well, this person's doing that, and I'm doing this, and I are not there, and you're so busy looking left.

and right and judging where other people might be that you never, ever, ever look and see what you've got in front of you and realize, oh my God, what have I ever got to complain about, you know? I think the time I probably felt it the most was in the History Boys, where we were eight boys of a similar age, more or less at a similar place in our careers. and that play that play just went off like a rocket like sometimes you're in stuff

that people think is good and nobody sees it sometimes you're in stuff that people think is shit and everybody sees it and vice versa every now and then every now and then you're in something if you're lucky enough you're in something that everybody says it's good and loads of people

are seeing it and it's amazing it's like a magic thing you can't and that play that play was a moment for every boy in that play every teacher in that play everyone and when that play took off Dominic Cooper who's like one of my best friends we used to live together he introduced him to my wife he's still one of my best friends

like what he would cut and all the boys actually at points they would come in with like sometimes like six scripts and be like oh I can't go out tonight because I'm meeting Martin Scorsese tomorrow And then I remember there was one day, when we were doing the play at the National, there was one day and myself, Russell, Toby, and Andrew Knott had all been told about this film. There was a new film being made.

And like every film that's almost about to be made, it's amazing. And it was about two backpackers and they get, I think, falsely accused of a murder, and they were looking for two young boys or something. We were like, oh my God, this is amazing. and we were all getting sent the script to the stage door. So we go down to get the scripts, and Russell had the whole script, and Andy had the whole script,

and I had three pages for a guy who runs a newsstand. And I was like, oh, man. And it felt like this is only because of how I look. I don't look like somebody who should be, anybody ever and I was like oh man okay and it became clear to me that the it felt like in a way people were saying we no no we think you're good and we can't wait to see you play some sort of bubbly judge when you're 55 right you know right or like you can drop off a TV to Hugh Grant

no one would do it better you would and And then I was like, oh, okay, so then I just thought, well, if no one's going to kind of just pull up a seat and say, here's a place to sit down, whatever metaphorical table I'd created in my mind, which is my own bullshit that doesn't exist, and everybody thinks they've got their own struggles, and no one thinks they've ever been invited in the door. But at that moment, it did feel like that. I thought, okay, well, I need to write something. So myself, me and my friend, Ruth Jones, who, yeah, yeah, good for you, madam. She, let me tell you, that lady's response is the absolute right response to hearing the words Ruth Jones. She is the best person on earth and one of my best friends, she and godmother to my son. And we were both on this show at the time.

And we decided to write a TV show together. I think we were both feeling, perhaps, the slight frustrations. And we decided, let's write this show together. And we wrote a show called Gavin and Stacey. We cast ourselves as the friends. And, you know, who could have ever predicted that that show would do what it did? In the UK, like our first episode aired with, I think it was. 430,000 viewers on BBC 3 and when we put the last episode out it was the most watched scripted

show of the decade in Great Britain and it kind of changed everybody's lives who were in it and no more so than Ruth and I and yeah it was that really that but writing that show came out of a feeling that was very very bad and that's I think the most important thing to realize is sometimes things happen in your life and you might think that they're very very good and two years down the line you go oh that was the worst thing that could have ever happened to me certainly when you think about love or relationships and vice versa you can have moments where at the time you think oh you know career wise whatever it is you think I can't believe this is happening and you're down and then two years later you go oh my god I learned so much from that that was the best thing

that could have ever happened to me at that time if it hadn't been for that it would have been for this, which comes down to the notion that you cannot compare yourself to anybody else, you are in your own lane and your own race, and you're in a race with nobody, and you're here for like a second, to stop looking at other people and think about what you can do, I guess. As much as you can, start your own path and don't want others define your career and life for you. Yeah, no, it's a great lesson and a great end product. Before we revel in some of the other successes like One Man, Two Governors and the Late Late Show,

I do want to bring up one sad audition. Is it true that one of your first auditions was for Lord of the Rings? Yeah. How'd that go, James? Not good. Everyone, every single person in London auditioned for Lord of the Rings. Everybody. And I auditioned for Sam Wise.

Sure. And I put myself on tape. You had to go, this is before everyone had really a really. their own camera or anything, so you'd go to this casting place, put yourself on tape. I was sort of, I was doing it, Josh, I was doing the accent and everything. Mr. Frodo! And I was with, two of my other friends went in, and then we all got called back the next day, and then we got called back the next day, and then none of us got called back after that.

You were able to watch the films to this? Is there PTSD? No, I think, no, I very much enjoyed those movies. I enjoyed it until the last one, and then I sort of, it's like, I think I've seen this now. Yeah, well. And then I thought, oh, I should have gone to see Love Actually. It's a lot of bid horrors, yeah.

Exactly. So we talked, you talked History Boys, and then you have this other kind of phenomenal. phenomenal experience on stage that we should mention, one man, two governors, which really changed things. That must bring back a flood of memories. I mean, what a beautiful time in your life that really, it was another kind of moment like history boys in a different way that was a true phenomenon.

Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, I mean, look, I knew when I was doing it that I don't know if I'll ever play a better part than this part, it was so beautifully created by, well, originally it's based on a Carlo Goldoni for Fas called A Servant to Two Masters, and Richard Bean adapted it. And I remember when we did a reading just of Act 1.

He'd just written Act 1 and we sat around a table and Jemima was there who was actually in the start of that scene and Ollie, Chris, who played Mrs. Dubbers. And there was just various actors who were in shows at the National and we read it and I couldn't I just couldn't call it where I was like I don't

I should remember saying to Nick like I don't this is either just a disaster or it's really funny and I was waiting for him to go no no no trust me

and know what I'm doing and he went yeah you're absolutely right and I thought no you you can't think that but no I mean I will say we did the show I think 470 something times and by the time we got to New York, there were nights doing that show on Broadway where I genuinely, there's a big scene at the end of Act 1, a big dinner scene where he essentially serves food to two different, to his two bosses. There were moments doing that scene in New York where I can remember I'd go home to my wife and I would say, if I could stay in that moment, if I could stay in that minute tonight,

I would live there forever. It's just such a well-written play. He's just the constructs of it are so good that it almost refuses to let the audience not root for you in some capacity, which then just means you can just, it's almost like a poker game and fun is the currency. And I would have to come out and look at the audience and say, I'm going to have fun tonight. and they'd go, well, you think you're having fun, we'll raise you some fun. And I go, well, I'm going to raise you some more fun.

And by the end of Act 1, you just think, okay, now we have to do Act 2 really quickly because it absolutely is not as good as Act 1. You know? So, I mean, look, the career is obviously going amazingly. The acting roles are diverse and fascinating. It's musicals. It's Into the Woods. It's a wonderful film Begin Again,

that people should check out. And this was not on the docket to host a late night. show. This was never on the target for you. When this came around, again, you have a really exciting acting career going. How long were the lists of pros and cons? How much did you debate this big decision to change your life for the late late show? Well, what I've realized in both agreeing to take to do the show and then making the decision to leave the show is that writing lists of pros and cons is futile. Because, um, you know, um, sometimes the pros or the cons can be so monumental,

it's pointless putting them on a list because you go, well, no, there's only three things here and there's ten things here, but two of these three are huge and outweigh the difficulties in moving, you know? In truth, I was very reticent to do it at first. It came about so oddly where I had come up.

I'd come to, I'd gone to Los Angeles, I had an idea for a TV show, a new idea for a show. And I kind of came to LA and I pitched it around at maybe five or six different places. And some people were very interested in making the show. And CBS actually made the most aggressive financial offer. But as I had sat with the show and lived with it, I realized that this show was never, ever going to get aired on CBS ever. And very fortunately, HBO had made an offer. So I decided to make it with HBO. And then I got told that CBS were very angry

because they couldn't work out why anybody would take like a quarter of the money to make something over here and they'd made a big offer and all this stuff. So I actually happened to be in New York and I pointed it out to my children yesterday. I said, that's the building. It's got Black Rock. That's the building I went in and all of our lives changed.

So I went to basically explain to them. And I sat with my then bosses and I said, look, or the people that become my bosses. I said, look, I've done you a great favour here. I said, here's how this would play out. You would give me this money to make a show. I would deliver you a show that you would never put on your network. You would be angry and want me to change it.

I would hate you for wanting me to change it. You would hate me for hating you for wanting me to change it. We make a pilot. It never airs. You hate me. I hate you, and that's it. I said, that's how this plays out. I said, I have done you.

I've saved you quite a lot of money here. Anyway, they understood, we got on well, and Stephen Colbert had just been announced as taking over from David Letterman, and I told them that I thought it was really impressive the way that they had dealt with that announcement. There was no kind of drip-fed rumours. It was clean, it was precise, it was brilliant.

And we got talking about later night, and I said, what are you going to do with that 1230 slot? And I said, because that slot, I think, is an anomaly. And they were like, why? And I said, well, because there's nowhere else in television nowhere else in television I remember saying this where you would go

8 till 9 we're going to have a hospital drama and then 9 till 10 we're going to have another hospital drama with the same diseases and I said Maybe a different city but same disease is the same

and I said I know I remember saying I know that you're a network television channel But, and I know that it's important for you to ignore the fact that the internet exists and to tell your advertisers that it doesn't exist. I said, but it does. And I said, and the people that watch late night is traditionally insomniacs, stoners, students, or an amalgamation of the three.

And I said, they're still watching content. Arguably, they might be consuming content more than ever before. they're just consuming it in a different way. And I said that 12.30 slot, you should hold your hands up and hand it over to the internet. You should make a show that can embrace the internet. Anyway, we're just chatting. I leave. This has been great.

I'm going to do the thing with HBO. I was thinking about doing a musical potentially on Broadway. I was maybe going to do a funny thing happening on the way to the forum. We hadn't agreed to do it, but I was thinking very carefully about it. And I felt like, okay, I know what the next six, eight months is. And that's amazing if you're an actor. And then they offered me this job and I said, I said, oh, that's very kind.

I don't think I want to do that. And it just went back and forth and back and forth. And then I'd written a show called The Wrong Man with my friend Matthew and we were filming in Johannesburg and I was FaceTiming my son on, or Skyping, it was Skype thing. Do you remember Skype? How did they fuck up the pandemic? How did that, how did that happen?

They had a 20-year leave on everybody for the pandemic. And then the pandemic here, and people were like, should we Skype? And they went, yeah, let's Skype. Send me the Zoom ID. And that was it. It was like, I've never seen anything like it. Had you ever heard of Zoom before the pandemic?

No. It was Skype only. And all they had, boop, boop, boop. Boop, boop. Boop, boop. Anyway, so I was Skyping my son on my birthday and my wife was pregnant and I was like, hang on a minute. Do I really, this is, all I actually want is to be creative every day. And it had come back around to me that said, look,

if you say no now, then they will take the no. But they've come back and this is what they'd like to do. And I was like, am I being stupid here? Wouldn't I rather regret doing something? something, they're not doing something. Maybe there's a world in which I could do something that satisfies all my needs and we'll be together as a family, which is hugely important to me. And maybe that's what we should do. And then I thought, okay, we've got to jump now. We should jump and have a go at this.

Safe in the knowledge that it absolutely won't work. I will get fired. But hang on, it really occurred to me that I didn't need to host a late night show. I could just have an hour of TV every night. And it wasn't the notion of being like, oh, hang on, I need to come up with 13 great desk bits. It was like, I can come up with any bit we want. And if we get it right, those things might get shared online and people will watch them. And we're not making a show.

The first thing I said when we sort of met as a team and we did the show, was the only thing I really said was we're not making a show that airs at 1235 at night on CBS we're making a show that launches at 1235 on CBS and if we make this show right people will consume it all day and all night on their phones their iPads their computers and everything and I was saying all of this with absolutely no knowledge of how to do such a if anyone had said okay but how I don't know I will not take any follow-up questions at the start Yeah. Well, it does, I mean, in retrospect, it did and does utilize all your talents. It is an amazing, even if you were and are an actor at your heart, you acted with everybody over the last eight years. You acted with the most amazing talent in the most brilliant, irreverent sketches on your own terms. Well, it's all a performance.

Like, it's not me. It's close to me. Sure. And I'm aware that it looks like me. But it's not really... you know and so as soon as I clicked that into my head that it's like oh

this is all a performance but then actually maybe our job is just to really really have a blast you know and and it has been it's been it's been the single

greatest time of my life without question as someone somewhat in the space and I've spent many years trying to convince celebrities to do crazy things. I have such admiration and for what you've been able to accomplish. And not to mention, as a late night fan, my entire life, to find new ways to skin that cat. That is, that is a tough thing. It is tough to bring new stuff to the table in late

night after the history we've seen. Yeah, but I think it helps that I didn't grow up here. Right. I really do. You needed an outsider to shake it up. Yeah. I really do. The idea that we have all the guests out on the couch at the same time, the idea that we wanted to make it feel like it was somewhere you would go after a night of the theatre. Like we would think a lot about the show and what we're following Stephen's show. Well, where does Stephen do? Where's Stephen going to do his show? Well, we followed David Lederman for about 25 shows.

Then we followed Hawaii 5-0 for about a summer. And then we started following Stephen. And we thought, well, Stephen's going to do it from a Broadway theatre in a big room. And we also felt like, well, knowing Stephen as we did, that he would be doing a show that would lean quite heavily into politics. We were like, well, where would you go after a night at the theatre? You might go to a bar. You might go to a comedy club.

You might go to a jazz club. Okay, well, let's try and bring the ceiling down of our studio. Let's try and make it lower. Let's bring the audience closer. I think we're the only late night show where it's sort of the desk. Three rows of audience, and the cameras go then behind that, and then there's more audience the other side of that. And the seats at the front all have small tables and lamps.

We were like, let's try and bring it in. Let's try and make it a place that you might go at 1230. Let's try and make it a conversation that can spring around between how amazing if we've got Zach Ephron, Bill Hader, and Ben Kingsley. Okay, well, what will that conversation feel like? And where will it go? And let's try and keep it organic and alive. And we would think about every fabric of the show, but we would only think about the audience.

How will it feel after that? How will it feel in that moment? How are they feeling when they're watching it? And that's all we'd ever really do. Didn't you get to do something you wanted? You literally got Tom Cruise to jump out of a plane with you. How many pitches were there to Daniel DeLewis to go shoe cobbling with you? How many, like you did?

We've never pitched. I don't think our pitch has ever made. Daniel Day Lewis's desk, so he better make a decision quick. Now we're never, Davey. No, look, doing a show like this is always an up at dawn pride swallowing siege to steal a line from Jerry McGuire. It is, you're always just trying and hoping

that people will get the thing that you've pitched them, that they'll have the time or the inclination, to do it and then you can't take it personally if they don't because you've just got to go well there's another show tomorrow right you know that's it really there's another show tomorrow so you can't really dwell on anything it's not really a bad thing you've got to celebrate your your victories let your failures go none of these things last forever yeah like failure isn't finite and success isn't everlasting most of the time you're just wallowing somewhere in between and you just got to go okay Well, we've got to, the show, you know, it's that thing,

it's a sort of classic line, I think, was written in a book about Saturday Night Live, which is, you know, the show doesn't start because it's ready. The show starts because it's 4 o'clock, and it's on in New York in five hours' time. It's on in Canada in two hours' time, so we better get a move on, you know? The show also came during a run where, like,

I know your intention throughout from the beginning was to make an escape, an entertainment, a piece of something that people could enjoy and just going with an open heart. And you've done it through this tumultuous, time in history, this tumultuous divided political time. Was it tough for you to navigate that, to figure out how much to comment, how much to address, how much to be in that conversation every day or at all?

It is hard. It's hard because it's hard because I'm from High Wyckham, it's a small market town like 40 minutes outside London. I didn't go to university. I don't think, I think I've, look, I have opinions about everything. But I don't necessarily feel like, I feel like if people are looking to me, then we're really in trouble.

Like, like, and no one really tells you, no one pulled me aside ever. And when, and look, I can speak about things that I'm passionate about. I can say, there are, there's things I know and there's things I don't know. And there are, you know, and there's lots of people saying those things. So, but there is a weird thing where somehow, and I don't know how this has happened, where somehow silence is seen as being complicit in the, like, you know, this notion when so you use your voice to be and you go, okay, but who are you talking to?

Who are you, who am I talking to? And do I have anything to actually contribute to the conversation? And you might do, but you might end up just sort of shouting into some sort of congratulatory sort of echo chamber. Which I think happens. That's not in America, but that's everywhere in the world. That happens. We're all doing that on the internet, you know. So I feel like I would really like to just try and bring as much joy and light and levity to.

to a situation, or just to the show, really. That's what I think our job is. But that has been, that has been a challenge over time, a lot of the time because some of those things are really, really hard to joke about. So I didn't mind, I really felt like we would talk about Trump a lot, right? Because I didn't really see that as being like, I didn't even think that was politics.

I just thought that that was just, like, right and wrong a lot of the time. But what we'd always try and do with our show is go, okay, well, we can talk about it. But is there another way that we can incorporate what our show is, the fundamentals and foundations of our show, and is there a way where we know what we're going to say and we can present it in a different way? So, like, a great example of that is, like, when Trump came back to the White House after he'd had COVID, and, you know, he drove around in that car, and he took his mask off on the balcony, and he said, and he gave that address, and he said, you know, maybe I'm immune, I don't know. And as an amazing writer who doesn't work on our show anymore, he got off an incredible scripted job, and my God, I love him, and I think he's going to do great things. His name is Lawrence Dye. and he literally just wrote us an email that night going why don't we do a version of maybe I'm amazed

to maybe I'm immune and then you're like okay and then that's when the show is the most fun and that's the thing that I'll really miss is like having an idea and then it's like okay how do we do it we need a piano we need some screening all this stuff we need lyrics you know

the night the day after the Oscars it was clear what every, every late night show was going to be talking about. Again, an upsetting and difficult thing to talk about. So you're like, well, we're going to talk about it. But is there anything we can do in the wheelhouse of our show that isn't that? And again, a great writer on our show, Molly Mitchell, she is brilliant. Just when I think I might have had an idea. And you go, go on. She was like, well, why don't we do, we don't talk about Jada. and rewrite the lyrics of We Don't Talk About Bruno, which was the biggest song from Encanto that year,

and you're like, okay. And then you're like, right, we need a steadicam. But then you're also like, well, hang on, we need people that have been tested because they're not going to get results. Oh my God, there's a steady cam operator who's over on Dancing with the Stars. He can come for 20 minutes.

Okay, dancers, lyrics, the whole thing. Let's do it in one shot. And those are the days. when our show is most alive. Like, that idea happened at midday. We shot it post-show at 6pm. We finished it at 7. It was on television two hours later.

And I think we fed it down the line live because we had to put graphics on it as well. And so those are the moments where our show, I think, is able to navigate those moments and still hang on to the core sort of foundation. of what our show is, or what we always wanted it to feel like. Let's end with this. You are in the home stretch of the show in this amazing run.

How are you feeling about the future? Is there as much excitement as there is a touch of fear? I mean, the next phase is going to be wholly different, clearly. You've already gone through arguably three or four different, very distinct phases in your career. How much can you control that? Do you feel in control of what's to come? I feel excited and scared in equal measure,

which I think is probably a good place to be. I think, I think I've, I will miss the show. I will miss the show more than, More than I think I can even comprehend right now, I will miss the people that I work with and the friendships that I've made. It is the most extraordinary place to work. But I just couldn't shake this feeling in myself

that I've got to go and see if there's just another thing that I'm capable of. Safe in the knowledge and okay with the fact that that might never materialize, that this absolutely might be it. And I have to make my piece with the notion that, like, that's it. And I'll be some sort of question on Jeopardy, you know, in like 15 years' time. And I'm okay with that.

Honestly, I am. I am. I feel like there was a feeling of safety at the show, which is an unnatural feeling for me. And I watched, there's an amazing clip which you should look up where David Bowie is talking about, he says, essentially he talks about, don't ever play to the gallery. Don't ever try and fulfill anybody else's expectations. That that's really dangerous. And he says, he says in this clip, if you feel too safe in the environment that you're working in, it's probably about time to swim out into the water a little bit further. I think he says, so the water's at your neck

and your toes are scraping the floor and you feel like you just might be about to drown. And if you find yourself there, you're probably in the right place to do something exciting. I have no idea what's going to happen. I have absolutely. no plans. I think I probably should sit in some silence for a minute. I think I should try not to jump into something

else for at least a moment. And I think what I've really got to do is remember the reason that we're going to move back to London is like you know my wife and children we have as a family we have walked to the beat

of my drum for a very long time now, it has been London, New York, Los Angeles, I'm shooting this in Germany, let's go, you know. And I think I probably, I think I owe it to these three small people that I love and I owe it to my wife to just go, I'm going to be here for a minute, and then we'll see what else is out there. And I haven't felt this way. I haven't felt this since I took the show. And that turned into something which even my wildest dreams couldn't perceive,

or conceive, rather. So I'm very excited to see what's next. And that's it. Well. It's safe to say whatever comes next, rather, we're going to be watching in whatever form. Take your well-deserved break. And look, truly, the mark you've left on late night is a really singular one. Congratulations on a great run.

Congratulations on mammals. Please spread the good word of this wonderful show on Prime. And you've been so kind to me over the years, and I really appreciate it. You know we offered Josh a job on the late later? We offered him a job on the Late Late Show eight years ago. Rob Crabb, who's the exact producer of our show, was like, he said, I remember him saying to me, there's this guy in New York, and I think if we can get him,

I think he's a genius. And he was right, and I think you chose the right thing not to do it because I think what you're doing here is absolutely brilliant. I think you are so great, it is. Thank you. It was only because I can't drive. It was only because I can't drive. drive. I don't have a driver's license. That was

the only reason. Yeah, it was pretty easy. Exactly. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. James Gordon, give it up one more time. Thank you. Thanks, thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review,

rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pleasure to do this by Josh. You may not realize it, but every minute of every day, you're enjoying your First Amendment freedoms. You can wear what you want, give out your opinion for free, even if it's unpopular. Listen to your playlist.

You can put a sign out on your front lawn that says, Vote for Bigfoot, someone you can believe in. Pray to the God of your choice, or don't. You have the right to hang with a posse that thinks like you do. Tell the government what you think about its policies. They're the freedoms that let you be you, and they're all brought to you by the First Amendment. Learn more at freedomforum.org. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names

still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S. Army and Native American warriors, to dark corners for the disaster of the Donner Party, and shining summits for achievements like the Transcontinental Railroad. We'll go back to the earliest days of explorers and mountain men and head up through notorious Pinkerton agents and gunmen like Tom Horn.

Every episode features narrative writing and cinematic music, and there are hundreds of episodes available to binge. I'm Chris Wimmer. Find Legends of the Old West, wherever you're listening now.