Happy Sad Confused - James Gunn

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

Three years ago James Gunn thought his career was over. Fired by Disney, he pondered his future and well, things didn't look good. What a difference a few years make. On this first visit to Happy Sad Confused (at last!), James reflects on the low-point of his career, his resurrection thanks to THE SUICIDE SQUAD, and why the only Superman movie he wants to make is about his dog. Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! And listen to THE WAKEUP podcast here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We've got a great filmmaker on the podcast today and one that we've been trying to get on for a while. I've known James Gunn for like a decade, talking to him in every different capacity, except here on the podcast. Somehow, the timing has never worked out. We've talked about doing it for a while, and I'm thrilled that finally the ship's lined up, the schedule's lined up, and we have James Gunn on Happy Sank and Fused. And the weight was worthwhile. The conversation is great. He is a fantastic guy to chat with a nerd out with on all things film, and specifically.

specifically comic book films, and his new one, as you've probably heard by now, The Suicide Squad, is getting exceptional reactions, and justifiably so. I really dug this movie. I've seen it twice. Don't worry, this is not a spoiler conversation. Nothing in here really is not in any of the trailers or anything. There's maybe an allusion to a specific kind of action scene, which shot, but I don't think that's a huge spoiler. So feel free to go into this, you know, and not worry.

enjoy the conversation with James, who has had quite the journey as a filmmaker. If you don't know kind of the background of James Gunn, like the short version is he was a trauma disciple. Trauma, obviously, that famous kind of B-movie studio from Lloyd Kaufman, kind of like down-and-dirty way of making films and kind of really dark, funny, twisted horror action. So he came out of that world, and then made films like Super and Slither, and seemed to be on one path when Guardians of the Galaxy came around and seemed to just utilize all of his talents in a way we didn't even understand it at the time. And obviously, Gardens of the Galaxy became just a phenomenon. The Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 followed. And then things got a little

weird. A few years back, three years back, James Gunn lost the Guardian's volume. 3 gig. He was booted by Disney and Marvel because of past tweets. And it seemed like James Gunn might be over for a second. Certainly James Gunn thought so. And he's really honest in this conversation, thinking his career was done. Of course, his career was not done. And thankfully, cast members from Guardians and others came to his defense. Disney did the right thing and reinstated him. He is going to be directing Guardians volume three. But in the meantime, D.C. came calling, Wanda Brothers came calling,

and offered him basically the pick of the litter of what he wanted to direct. They wanted him to direct Superman, for God's sakes. He said, no, I want to do the Suicide Squad. I know it was just made. David Ayers kind of famously embattled production came and went, but I want to do my take on the Suicide Squad,

and certainly he has done that. And this new one opens this Friday, and it has an amazing ensemble, led by Idris Elba and Margot Robbie. and Joel Kinneman, the list goes on and on. Everybody's excellent in this film. So, yeah, it's been quite a saga for James, and he gets into all of it in this conversation today.

And as I said, he's super honest about kind of the ups and the downs, and the downs were significant for him. And we talk a little bit, of course, about the future, too. Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3 is coming soon. He's been working on the peacemaker show for HBO Max, And we also just discussed sort of like his appetite for future comic book films and where he might be headed next. So, again, so thrilled James Gunn came on the podcast to talk all things, Suicide Squad, and more. Other things to mention.

Let's see. Oh, we have a new Game Night episode up on the Patreon page. Patreon.com slash happy sag and fused. Check this one out. This is super fun. This is Daniel Radcliffe, my old buddy, Harry Potter himself, on Game Game. night. It's Dan and his Miracle Workers co-stars Karen Sonny and Geraldine Viswanathon. Miracle Workers on TBS is a really funny show. I feel like it's kind of under the radar, too, but I

really dig it. The new season is on the Oregon Trail. Each season kind of reiterates. It's a different setting, different set of characters, but the same cast. And this was a blast. A bunch of silly back box games and more with this crew, and they were all very funny and very games. So again, patreon.com slash happy set, confused. Enjoy this game night with Dan Radcliffe and his buddies. And I should say, if you join the Patreon, all the game night episodes are available for you, whether you want to check out Sam Hewin or Chris Pratt or whatever. Kevin Hart recently, they're all there.

So I encourage you to check it out. I think you'll dig it. Let's see. else should be mentioned. Some cool MTV interviews coming soon. Maybe I won't mention them just yet. Been doing some stuff for Comedy Central. Had a lovely chat with Alexander Dodario. You can check that out pretty soon, I think, on Comedy Central's YouTube page. You know, you know how we roll. I'll mention all of this on my social media, Joshua Horowitz, on Twitter and Instagram. That's the best place to keep up with all of my shenanigans. All right, let's get to the

main event. If you're here, you're probably here for James Gunn, and I don't blame you. As I said, this one does not disappoint. Here's me and James on all things suicide squad and more. Mr. James Gunn, this has been a long time coming. We've been talking about doing the podcast for a while. I've been pestering you. So I'm glad we're here. We made it. We made it. Yeah, this is it. This is it. I'm talking to people, you know, for like, you know, whatever, four years now I've been telling everyone. Oh, you know, not doing any podcast, not doing any interviews. No, no, no, no, no. And now, finally doing a few things.

But not too many still, Josh. No, I appreciate it. I appreciate you making the time, man. And congratulations on the suicide squad. Another exceptional piece of work. And it is a James Gunn film through and through. And that is a high compliment coming from me. And I will say, like, it's been a minute since I've seen you.

And I feel like you've risen like Gandalf. You're like Gandalf, you're like Gandalf the white now. you are you are reborn my friend this is from the ashes from the ashes that's right the phoenix arises does it feel does it feel like i mean you've been on a journey well i want to we'll get to the last few years but let's go a little bit more wide first because look at like james gun 10 years ago it's fascinating to think about about 10 years ago super comes out it makes like i mean i love it but it makes less than 600k at the box office it is not i will say super did pretty well on VOD, which is where the box office was just sort of advertising for the VOD.

So it did okay. Considering the movie only cost $3 million. It did pretty well. It didn't feel like what Slyther felt like, you know, which was not a hit, you know. You were perceived a different way prior to Guardians as this kind of like guy on the outskirts, this perverse kind of trauma, ex-trauma guy. Iconoclast, yes. Exactly.

Does it boggle your mind to this day, like where you stand, where you stand, where you it and like you are the center of pop culture. It doesn't get any more centered than the movies you've made the last decade. I just don't perceive it in that. I just don't look. I try as little as possible to think of myself how other people think of myself. In a lot of ways, it just so doesn't matter to my life, you know. Yeah, you know, but it wasn't that I always wanted to make bigger movies. It's not that I didn't want to make movies that were more, uh, or whatever you might think. Like, I just, that was always a part of my plan for myself.

It just didn't, you know, it just took a few years to get there. Do you think, though, like that sensibilities have also changed a bit? Hugely. Hugely. I think if, I think if Super came out today, it would be perceived much differently. I mean, you know, listen, you go back to 1998, I made a movie called The Specials, which was a commentary on superheroes, you know, made like before real superhero movies were really. So yes, I've always, you know, I mean, just because now comic book culture, which was the

culture that I grew up with through reading comic books, not through seeing movies, now comic book culture is made mainstream through movies, not through comic books. So all of those sort of themes and weird things that interested me about comic book superheroes. What is it, you know, with Frank Darbo and Super, what does it really mean to be a vigilante, you know, a guy who beats up people for doing what he thinks of is wrong. What is that like in real life? I think that's a much more interesting premise to people today than it was what I made that movie who didn't have anything to compare it with. It also, though, you would admit, I would, I would think that, like, as the years have progressed, you've also found a way to inject more heart, more emotion

in these films that still have like a perverse nature at times. You found a way to have them co-mingle, and that's maybe your greatest accomplishment, I would argue, the last 10 years. Yeah, I think I'm just much more emotionally grounded. I mean, that's me. I mean, but I, but if you look back at, you know, my first movie, Tremio and Julia, you look back at the specials, you look back at Super, those all have really emotional aspects to them. I mean, like really, it could be argued that the emotionality of Super was the main, you know, the primary aspect of that film. So that that emotionalism was always there. It was always present. I've always always been an emotional person. But I think that I am a little bit less, I don't want to say I'm

less punk rock, but whatever. There was always a need to like push somebody's buttons to mess with someone. Like there's an aggressiveness I had both as a person and in my work earlier on that I let go of, you know, and that's for a lot of reasons. But I don't deal with. things aggressively in my life generally. That's a part of maturity for all of us. I mean, like, that's just the, that's our, everyone's 20s is about just like, fuck the system. I need to, like, rebel against everything.

And at a certain point, you're like, yeah, I can still be that, but everything doesn't have to be a fuck you to the world. Yeah. I mean, I don't get excited by offending people. Right. Right. So let's look. So when you get into Guardians, and I promise, we'll get obviously into suicide squad,

but like when you get in there, When you look back on that experience, is there anything about helming that film that you cringe at in terms of like, oh, I didn't, if I, I didn't know what I was doing in that, at least that respect. Obviously, it came out pretty damn well, but was there anything you were kind of like, no, you were ready. You had all the tools. Yeah, totally ready. I had every tool available to me to do that move. So I had been making, I think if you asked me the one thing that I cringe about, it probably isn't the thing that you would expect. but I've been far under budget on all of my movies, including Suicide Squad. And that's a very unusual thing in Hollywood. But I'm not very selfish. I have a producer hat on

because I started making $350,000 movies. I made an entire feature film for $1,500. So I always have this producer hat on to like rush and get things done. And at times that took precedence over taking my time making sure i got done what i did correctly and that could be in a shot that could be in somebody's performance and i and it also it caused me a lot of grief i didn't i didn't enjoy the experience because i was so filled with fear about getting that next shot right so i think that was really it

took me through past guardians two to get rid of that completely um and i'm still under budget i'm still fast and i love being fast it's cool i feel responsible doing it i like doing it i like doing it. It makes more fun to make a movie. But if I don't get something, I take my time and I make sure I get it right. I would assume also the pleasant, hopefully not surprised, because you were hoping, I'm sure, going into Guardians that you would maintain some authorship over it. But like, it's still kind of shocking to think that, again, you were able to make your film, even within the context of the larger MCU. Did you have trepidation at the time that you were going to be able to be true to yourself or were you like kind of stealing yourself like at some point they're

going to come in and and kind of like take this thing over. I went in and pitched totally what Guardians was to Kevin and Lou. Now today I might go, you know, you hear stories about people that pitched exactly what they want and then studio buys into that and then want something totally different. Right. Maybe I was too naive for that. But I told them exactly what the movie was going to be from the beginning. I knew. And I honestly felt like I was created in a lab. I was grown in a petri dish to make Guardians of the Galaxy. You know, I knew that no one else could do with that movie what I was going to do. So I was incredibly confident with it.

I'm maybe overconfident with a lot of things anyway, but I was incredibly confident. And the way I kind of get away doing what I want to do is I'm just never the squeaky wheel. I mean, they had other productions happening at the same time. And they were much more problematic. And I was just not going to be the squeaky wheel. So I sit back. I get all my footage done every day. I make sure the dailies look good.

And then I don't get screwed with. And that was the way that was back then. You know, still, you know, there are things that, you know, I agreed to that, you know, small regrets of things that I agree to that, you know, I wish I hadn't. But nothing very big with Guardians, volume one. You obviously have a knack for casting. If you hit Guardians, you go all the way up to the suicide squad.

And now there's like so much lore about the casting of that first guardians. I mean, people have talked about the auditions and everything. We know that Glenn Howardton was your kind of second choice for Quill. I mean, they're fascinating things like, I guess, Chadwick, who was up for Drax, which was fascinating. I mean, do you remember that? Do you remember his take on Drax? I don't remember it. I thought I met, until now, I thought I met Chadwick at the Hollywood Black Poster Awards.

And, you know, when he was first got the role of Black Panther and Ian Pratt and I hung out. So I don't remember him auditioning for Drax at all. Was Glenn's take on Peter Quill that much different than Pratt? I mean, obviously you were into it and you would have been happy with it sounds like, but it would have been a different, I assume it would have been a different guy. It would have been a different guy. Yeah. Yeah, definitely a different guy.

But that was the part of the thing. I mean, for Peter Quill, I wanted somebody to come in and fill it with their own personality. It couldn't just be, you know, Rocket and Gruner are much more like, hey, there's got to be this thing. And they're fitting into this tight little box. but with him, that wasn't so much the case. You know, with Gomorrah, that wasn't so much the case. What was the hardest person to cast in that cast? Like, what was the biggest, I don't want to say fight,

but what was the biggest kind of back-and-forward discussion in the end? No doubt. I mean, that's one of the reasons why Dave Batista and I are so tight today is because Marvel didn't want to cast Dave Batiste, and they didn't really want to cast Michael Rooker either. So those were bad. They didn't want to cast Karen Gillen either. So those were all battles that I had to fight to get those people cast.

Chris was a little bit easier. Zoe was very easy. But the rest of them were, there was some, there was some, never, like, listen, I mean, it's like, you know, people, I say things like that and then people's ideas that we were arguing and fighting. No, it was always so friendly and so open and, you know, they just. I'm sure it's fun, exciting, like you're like kids in like a boardroom, like, oh my God, wouldn't it be cool for this person to be that person?

Yeah, it'd be cool. but maybe this is the better way to get. Yeah, so it was always pretty, it was always pretty, pretty, pretty friendly, you know, but Dave was definitely the hardest because there was, you know, there was specifically somebody else they wanted to cast in that role that I prefer Dave. The one other one I wanted to mention is, is it true that Alan Rickman was going to, was up for a role that you were thinking about casting him in Guardians? You know, when people, I don't know, is, who would have he been?

Not that I remember, no. Okay. I don't think so, but like, you know, again, When you say considering to be like seraphim or whoever my, you know, casting person is in at the time, comes in with a booklet that's thick. Right. With the names of people that are being considered for Peter Quill. So all the time I hear somebody was considered for Peter Quill or they were, you know, being, you know, but like we literally had over, you know, hundreds of auditions for Peter Quill. Right, right.

So I don't, I don't know, you know. So let's jump ahead to the, the birth of this one. So the suicide squad, as is well known, for those that don't know, is kind of birthed out of arguably the darkest kind of career moment for you, a definite down moment. It's almost three years exactly. I remember, I was at Comic-Con. I think I was scheduled to talk to you like in a day the next day.

Oh, yeah, there's James on the schedule. We're going to talk, Brightburn. It's going to be awesome. And then, like, everybody, I saw the deadline. headline come across that you were out. Were you in San Diego already? I was supposed to be taking, I can't remember if I was supposed to be taking a plane,

I think a plane the next day to San Diego. So we were supposed to get on the plane. Yeah, I think we were taking a jet. I was supposed to get on the plane with my brother, Brian and my cousin Mark, who wrote the screenplay, director Dave, and we were going to, and I'm sure, you know, some of the actors.

and we were going to fly out there. And yeah, it didn't happen. Did you feel it could be over, like the career could legitimately? 100% thought it was over. 100% thought it was totally done. 100% was like, I got to think about what I'm going to do next. And 100% thought I have to, you know, I might have to sell my house and figure out how I can conserve the money that I had made so far

to last for the rest. rest of my life. That's crazy. Who's the first person that kind of, do you remember, reached out that started to make you feel like, okay, some people have my back and maybe I'll be okay. Kayla Hoover, who most people don't know, but as they know, she's a good friend of,

some people know she's a good friend of mine. She's been in a lot of my movies. She reached out immediately. Batista, Chris Pratt, reached it. Oh, you know what? She reached out like the night it was happening, but then when I got fired, Chris called me immediately

and Zoe called me immediately and Zoe was crying and then Karen called me, Karen Gellon called me and she was crying and it really was and then Dave was tweeting about it so POM I talked to immediately I talked to all of the guardians

immediately but it was also like my agents and Sylvester Stallone you know sent me a video my buddy Michael Rosen I mean, it was really just, it really was all the people in my life that I'm close to. And I feel bad every time I say, oh, look at all these famous, because there was a lot of non-famous people, you know, my mom and my dad, my brothers and my sister, you know, my girlfriend, Jen, of course, was the most, you know, she had to go through it with me. So there were a lot of people. And then a lot of people that were not, you know, who I didn't know, who were, you know, involved in the media and stuff, strange stuff like that.

Which was cool. I guess if there's a takeaway, a message for folks, it's good to be kind to other people because they'll have your back when you need them. Karma clearly came around. That was a lesson for me, really, and this is like me being 100% you know, as raw as I can be.

You know, I had spent my whole life seeking fortune and fame. And I'm a creative guy. I love making movies and telling stories. But there was a part I was, part of it I was using to try to fill a hole in me that didn't feel loved by other people. And either because I am some strange place on the spectrum or because of my relationship with my parents or whatever, I never was able to experience feeling loved. And when that happened, I felt like everything in my life had been taken from me at one time. But in that moment, all of a sudden, all these people loved me in a moment when I thought my career was over. And I felt so, I felt loved for the first time in my life.

And it was an incredibly empowering experience. And I went to sleep that night. Then this is the weirdest part. I thought I had lost everything. I went to sleep pretty happy that night because I knew. never knew people loved me and I suddenly was able to experience that and that affected everything afterwards. It's funny. I mean, we'll we'll jump more into like the specifics of suicide squad, but as you're talking about that, I'm like, I'm thinking about the film and like these kind of

unlovable characters certain of which like do find like someone to love them by the end of it. So it's it's clear that that was resonating as you were writing this. But we'll get to that. First I'm just curious. So DC comes calling. How does that go down? Do they say like, look we're open to you what we love what you do here's our what do you want to do because i've heard superman talked about do they yeah yeah it's really it's really easy so my manager is peter saffron he's also the producer of the switzerland peter's been my manager since 1998 we're very one of my closest friends he works out at warner brothers in the morning toby emrick comes out and works out in the same gym as he does every morning every morning toby emmerc came in starting that monday after saying

James Gunn Superman, James Guns Superman. And Peter would laugh. And then he said, but Toby said, but seriously, whatever James wants to do, he can come and do, you know, just tell us what he wants to do. He's like, we'd love him to do Superman. We'd love him to do, we want to do a Suicide Squad sequel. We'd love him to do that.

But, you know, whatever he wants to do. And so with that, I went and I sat down and I thought about all of the different projects that I was considering. And they weren't actually all Warner Brothers projects. There was a couple of other things I was considering as well. And so I kind of sat down with these different ideas because a problem I've had at times in the past is I've committed to a good idea and then found out I don't really know how to implement it. This was more a problem I had as a writer than as a director. But I didn't want to commit myself to doing something for so long if I didn't really

love the story. And I started to fall in love with suicide school. squad. And I called up, you know, Walter Hamada, and I said, what do I have to keep? I watched the first, the last movie for the first time. And I said, you know, what do I have to keep from the movie? And what do I not have to keep? And he said, you don't have to keep anything. He said, you could change everybody. You could change nobody. We love Margo. We'd love it if she was in the movie, but you don't have to keep her. You can do whatever you want. And so from that, then I did, went and just started writing this story. And it just took off. And it was more exciting to me than all the other ideas I was working on. And it just became really clear which

thing I was most passionate about. How far did you go down the road of, because I mean, like, alongside Batman, Superman's the Crown Jewel. Like he is like the most iconic superhero on the planet. So I would imagine there's some temptation, some temptation to be like, oh, let me, let me see what I can do with that. Did it feel like there was unexplored territory that was interesting for you for something? Yeah, I mean, I've talked about it before, but I considered doing a crypto movie, which I thought would have been really fun. So, uh, but that shows you where my head's at. I'm not bad. I wasn't that interesting. You go mainstream. Mainstream superheroes dog. A superpowered dog running around a city destroying it while, uh, that's from Krypton while Superman tries to track him down and get him.

That seemed interesting to me. So, you know, I'm not saying I would never be interested in Superman. And if it was Batman, which Matt was already doing, it might have been a difference. I might have thought, felt differently about it, because I understand Batman. You know, I understand Harley Quinn. Like, I don't understand every character. So you land on The Suicide Squad. It's fascinating to me that, like, first of all, that they even offered it up because at the time,

you could perceive it as having some baggage. While the box office was good, obviously it wasn't like the most critically acclaimed film. David's struggles to the studio are, you know, famous. That was no doubt. I mean, that still is part of it today. I mean, first of all, there's no greater guy than David Ayer. He's been the best guy to me in the world.

He's an extremely talented filmmaker. But everybody knows he has struggles. That's a, that's a, you know, that affects the title, you know. Yeah. And so that's, you know, part of what this was. How did you feel like your way into, like, navigating that baggage was? Did it feel like you have to, like, implement certain things in order to kind of, like, make people realize, okay, we're kind of starting from scratch or not, no, just

Make the best movie you can trust in that. 100%. Like that, from the beginning, that wasn't my business. If, you know, if Warner Brothers has problems because of the first movie or whatever, that's like really up to them to figure out and fix, you know, and fix are not fixed. Like, that's up to them. I can just tell the best story I can. And I wasn't going to be telling a story that was a shadow of David's movies that I'm like,

oh, I'm trying to react to things that didn't work in your movie and make them differently. I just wanted to tell the story of the suicide school. that I wanted to tell and always wanted to tell. And I was jealous when David got that gig because they're one of my favorite comics. And so I was like, oh, I always thought that would make a great movie. Well, I'm excited to see the movie

because somebody else is doing it. But I felt like that was Shazam. You know, always thought Shazam would make a great property. Always was excited about the potential of doing it. And then, you know, they made the movie and I thought it was great. So it's just, you know, it's, I can't do everything dream about doing. Right. It's more of a, I mean, it's more of a men on a mission, men and women on

a mission film than it is a superhero or super villain team movies. It's more of that, would you agree? Was that more of your reference points? 30 dozen more than Avengers, clearly. 100%. It's a war caper film with a Z grade supervillains, you know, and they're just a bunch of sad sack soldiers at the end of the day who have problems connecting with each other. So I think that, yeah, for sure, that's the genre engine that drives the movie. much more so than a superhero film. There's nothing really about the general superhero film engine that drives this film. I sent you a message after I saw it.

I mean, there were a lot of things I loved about it. One of the things that jumped out to me was Idris, who I feel like is, I mean, I'm always rooting for him. He's delivered some great performances, but I feel like in the mainstream stuff, he's not been well served. And I feel like most folks, for whatever reason, it just hasn't clicked. They haven't found the right kind of big thing for him. And I just loved him in this movie. I loved, he's like, to me, he's like Snake Pliskin and Han Solo somewhere, like, fused together. The classic kind of reluctant hero.

He is a bastard, like, all of them. Can you talk to me about, like, what you were, I mean, you get the most out of your actors. Like, I could go down the list and say, like, a half dozen different actors. I've never seen better before. But tell me a little bit about Idris and Bloods. So Idris is a guy who I've wanted to work with for a long time. I thought he was a star when I saw him in Stringer Bell on the wire, and I've loved them ever since then. Um, and, uh, you know, I, you know, my, my ex wife is Jenna Fisher on the office. And I thought about writing a role for him in this movie. And I called Jenop and I'm like, do you like Idris? Is he a nice guy? She said he's a great. She said he's beyond great. She's like, she was telling me about how she was with her publicist at an event. And Idris met her and was so nice to her and looked her in the eyes. And anybody who's in Hollywood knows that there are a lot of people that when they're around a famous person,

everybody else seems to disappear, you know. We, Michael, I have a friend of mine who's a TV, TV actor, and we have a guy who we know, who we go to a party with this person, and we can tell exactly where our career is at that time, by how much time he spends looking at us versus looking around at other people, the very famous person. And it's so obvious. You always know where you stand. in the industry, but how much guy looks at you. And that's always something. And that's what

it just smelled like. So he came very highly recommended. I wanted somebody who had this gravity about them. You know, he's like a William Money and Unforgiven, a guy who, you know, came from the heights of supervillains. He shot Superman down from the sky with a kryptonite bullet. And now he's in a prison, scraping gum off the floor and has no interest in being recruited into this operation. So I just thought he would be great for that. And I wrote the whole role around him. Were you ever going to show that reference point to taking down Superman or was it

best left in the imagination? Yeah, I never thought about showing it. No, I mean, like, no, never really thought it, you know. You have a great kind of Rhodes Gallery, some of which are better known than others. Most, frankly, are not known to most even comic fans. I mean, I don't know most of these characters. And I still have fallen in love with Pocodat Man, etc. etc. But there were, as you say, there were different, I know Wanna Rose was considering different

kind of suicide squad, things Gavin O'Connor was talked about, et cetera, like I know that like Death Stroke was talked about, Black Adam was talked about, did you consider either of those seriously? Deathstroke, I definitely considered Death Stroke and I love Joe Mangonello as a dude. So, but at the end of the day, I just wasn't sure it worked for this movie. But I definitely considered Joe, yeah. And in terms of casting, was it important, did you feel like you obviously have Rooker in there, but for the most part, these are not the Guardians cast? Did you consider some of your Guardians crew, or did you feel that would muddy the water? Well, I mean, people know, I almost cast Dave in a role, and he couldn't do it, so he didn't.

But other than that, you know, well, there might be a guardian somewhere in the film that no one has seen yet. And I'm so always surprised by, yeah. Really? The eagle-eyed, including myself, haven't noticed it. Okay. I've gotten a hundred reviews from this movie, and I just, I just am astounded. Wait, is the person visible, or am I listening?

I'm not going to tell you anything else, Josh. What? It's going to be found out as soon as this comes. I'm sure. I can't believe people haven't, you know. Okay, wow. Okay, I've seen it twice. Now, clearly, I need to go back a third time.

I reference, you know, kind of like the trauma roots, the horror roots, like, that's in there, especially towards the third in the third act of this film. There's some horrific fucking imagery in this film show that I love. Starro is like, you thought the Borg was a scary kind of collective villain? No, this kills that. The stuff in the lab, I don't want to ruin too much. But like, did you revel in kind of like, again, going back to some of those things that obviously doesn't fit the aesthetic, the vibe of guardians, but you can.

Right, yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, I love, when I was a little kid, I found Starros so scary. And then he's also so goofy at the same time. You can have your cake and eat it too. You can do both, yeah. Yeah, I get excited by the, you know, the challenges of a giant pink and cerulean blue starfish that walks like a two-year-old that is also terrifying.

And how could we make that work? Not to mention he's walking through like one of the most, you know, greatest, you know, looking in most interesting locations in the world. it's like a big Jeff Coon's artwork. I feel like in this film there are a couple, like, Peacemaker stands out to me most is like, there's almost like a gentle mocking of like the classic superhero costumes.

Like that. I mean, his costume is bananas. I think of even, even, you know, blood sport, like running around at times with just the helmet, you're like, oh, this is all just so, like, how do these grown men live with themselves? Is there a bit of that where, like, you get to kind of like, have fun with that trope that.

Well, I think in particular with Peacemaker, I mean, I just wanted every character to look almost like they were from a different genre of film, you know. And these were all successful movies that were made with these different characters from different genres of, you know, soup comic book films. And then they're coming together in the suicide squad,

even though, of course, we've never met any of them, except for Harley. But, yeah, I think that I was excited about peacemaker's outfit in general. there's actually, you know, they make fun of them in the TV show where Steve Agee's character says, you know, I'm not sure a bright red shirt and bright white pants are exactly conducive to Luke lurking in the shadows. I mean, it's like the worst possible costume you could ever have, but that's who peacemaker is. He's like, you know, he's out there, man. He wears short

sleeves. That's one of the best things, the superhero costume with short sleeves so that it can show off, you know, how cut he is. Like, that's why, the only reason he would have it like that. It's so great. It's so great. I also love, I don't know if you've ever explored this or shot a version of this or this has been in your mind for a while, there's a portion of a very significant fight that is viewed through a superhero helmet. Like you're, you linger on a reflection for a fight, which is a pretty ballsy thing to do. Has that been something that you've thought of for a while or just came to you in this one? It came to me in that one when I, I guess when I started storyboarding it, you know? So, you know, I write the scenes, but then I started storyboarding. them. And a lot of times the storyboards stay pretty much the same as what is in the script. So like the big Harley fight sequence, that storyboarded very much like what it was written like in the script. Whereas the jungle scene where, you know, bloodsport and peacemaker get into their sort of toxic masculinity carnival, that was, you know, that kind of just said, you know, they start killing people almost as if they're competing and trying to see who is cooler.

And that was all it was in the script. And then I sort of started drawing it and then built it into that side-scrolling video game where things just keep getting exponentially more violent and more ridiculous. So you clearly fell in love with all these characters. We're going to get a bunch more, a peacemaker in this series that you've completed. Is this one story? Is it episodic? What's the structure of the peacemaker show?

It's one story over eight episodes, you know. And it really is an ensemble. It really is the story of peacemaker of Danielle Brooks' character, Leota, of the two texts from the movie. You know, Steve Agee and Jennifer Holland is John Economos and Amelia Hartcourt. And then Vigilante, played by Freddie Stroma.

And then Chuck Woody Owoogie plays a guy character by the name of Mern. So it's about that six. And it is really just the greatest, it's the greatest. I love it. I just totally love it. Similar in tone and violence level, et cetera, to the suicide squad, or does it have its own kind of thing?

It has its own kind of thing. I mean, it definitely is an offshoot of the suicide squad and that it's very gritty and very violent. But also, we get a lot more of going into somebody's life and seeing really who they are and where they live and what they do and the drama that he has. so it gets has more drama and more comedy um it just is it goes into his his mind completely in the mind of those people around him and it's about a guy who you know is confronting a world that is

very very different than the world he grew up with which is what a lot of you know white dudes are doing right now right i i got to think like shifting over to the marble side of things i mean with the way they're turning out these great disney plus shows i mean your ensemble of guardians like each of them merits their own Disney Plus show or movie. Like, what's, is there talk of that? Would you spearhead? Would you EP? Would you direct a Guardian's Disney Plus show?

And is there one that's at the top of the list? There, you know, the one that was always that I, you know, listen, just being honest, and this will be, of course, the thing that everybody gets out of his interview, if I say it. You know, I always thought the ravagers would be a great, you know, you know, show. So whether that was with, you know, slice. alone's ravagers are just even more in depth in terms of the pirates and what they're doing. I think I was always interested in doing that. I told, I told Kevin Feige that when he first visited set when we were on the ravager ship on Guardians 1, I said, should make a ravager show.

And he said, if this movie's hit, you can do whatever you want. I just don't know a ravager's show. So I don't know what happened. But the truth is, I'm awful busy. So I really don't know what, I mean, I want to do a peacemaker season too. So that's the only thing that I'm sort of committed to if it happens at this point. So you're going to get going pretty soon on Guardians 3 and the Christmas and the holiday special. I'm going hardcore now, man. I just gave my assistant a, you know, crap load of storyboards to go put together. So, yeah, amazing. I'm way hardcore into it. So, so this is an interesting situation. And then I know, this was obviously ready to go about three years ago. You had the script. It was, I think, like the

cast at Reddit or Chris had read it. I feel like I talked to him about it. Everybody read it. Yeah, except for Dave. Dave doesn't like reading it until right before he shoots. So, but everybody else is in the script, yeah. So I know, and I've heard you in other conversations, like, you're not changing it wholesale. It pretty much is what it is. You're obviously like any filmmaker. I'm sure you're going to tweak till the last minute and make it as great as possible. But I'm just curious, like, look, you've also talked openly about Rocket being the character

you've always kind of related to most and it being Rocket's story. Can you, can you hint a little bit about sort of like the arc of rocket from where we saw him in Guardians 1 to what like what is this third film what is the final journey of Rocket going to feel like and tail without you know obviously getting into specifics well i think we just get to know where rocket you know at the very first movie you know we see rocket take his clothes off we see those scars on his back we see that he's come from someplace very difficult and to me that's always been the center of the guardians is you know how do you make a raccoon talk and make him real and it's sort of ended up being the saddest story of all time and it is a saddest story of all time so Guardians of the galaxy is the

saddest story of all time I mean I was going to say like again we've talked about how the emotion the emotion in all your films I mean you know yandu's death and guardians too I mean the cat Stevens music everything I mean it all hit me I'm sure hit audiences like do you do you when you look at your scripts in Guardians three do you see those moments that make you well up and you feel like we'll hopefully connect with an audience. Definitely. I mean, I can't even tell you how sad it is. Stay tuned for the saddest superhero. It kills me every time. I can't believe I'm even right, man. I look at it sometimes and I go, what in the world is going on? This is so,

so incredibly. Is that tragic? I'm not joking. I do it every day where we're designing all these characters and stuff. And I sit down and I'm like, it's so heartbreak. It's just rocking where he came from and all of that. It's just, it's really heartbreaking. And I love him. I love him more than, you know, almost any character, if not any character ever. He's my boy, you know. And, you know, I still, every time I watch the last shot of him and Guardians 2, I cry. Every time I watch Drax Petim and Guardians 1, I cry. And now we really get to see where all of that came from what leads to all of those moments where you know who is he and where is he from but also everybody else too also has their story what is it mean to have had these guardians do their thing

over the past few years what do they mean to each other like it is it's all of that and um and the you know the kind of the trilogy comes to an end i mean this this will mark of kind of a decade for you of living with these comic book films succeeding at the highest level. And you've talked about both your love of them and also like, you know, you had some candid thoughts the other day saying, look, a lot of them don't work for me. That's fair criticism. A lot of them don't work for me either. But like where do you see the next decade? Like, do you feel like you're going to be lured back into the comic book movie fold or do you feel like you've got to kind of like take a significant break in order? I don't feel either of those things, Josh. I really just feel like

I need, you know, I just want to make sure that whatever I'm doing, I'm really enthusiastic and excited about in the same way I was excited about Suicide Squad. If I can do, you know, try to be, you know, as nearly excited about anything I take on in the future, is that it really doesn't matter to me, you know, if it's a Marvel project or a DC project or Clifford the Big Red Dog or something that I make up myself. I don't really care. I don't want to that they made that movie. Literally, Clifford movie's about to come. Yeah, I want to make the Clifford the big red dog I was going to

yeah the godfather just keep as it does yeah the back to the future sure you've seen back to the future have you seen the back to the future

the you just saw any old back to the future this is the back to the future what's okay so now Marvel has, obviously, in the last couple of years, they've opened it up. They've got, like, the keys to the Fox properties, X-Men, Wolverine, Fantastic Four. What are you as a fan of all of it? Most excited to see what could, if Kevin ran you up and said, hey, here's Wolverine, here's whatever, any of them.

Zero, nothing. None of those. Like, if Warner Brothers came to me and said I could do anything I wanted, like, I don't, it's just like, it's got to be something that excites me specifically, you know? And I just don't know what that is. Right now there's nothing. I really, I feel like I'm at a place in my career where I can't pretty much do what I want. And I don't, it would have to be something

I really, really care about on a creative level. And you know, and that's not necessarily what the fans think is the biggest property. You know what I mean? Right. Well, I mean, I like taking things that people don't love. I want to, you know, when they offered me Superman, I'm like, well, somebody's gonna make a Superman movie.

No, it's not like there's never going to be another Superman a movie, but who's going to tell Pocodot Man's story? I don't tell it. Nobody. It'll never get told. You know, I want to put a big villain in there. Yes, yes. You know, someday there's going to be, you know, whatever,

every single supervillain you can think of, but not necessarily Starro. He's the guy that's going to get left out of having his movie told, his story told in a big way. So I want to tell Starrot's story, you know. See, there's the punk rock guy we were worried was dead. He's alive and well. That's how.

That's how it comes out. You know, when Guardians of the Galaxy was coming out, everybody just endlessly hitting that hammer of, A, this is going to be Marvel's first flop, you know? And then secondly, nobody wants these characters. Why are they making these characters when we don't have fill the blank, you know? Right.

And it was just constantly, constantly happening. Then it happened with Suicide Squad, and now it's happening with Peacemaker. It's like, you know, wait, wait to see the movie, man. movie, man. How many times do I have to prove I can make you care about the weirdos? Maybe you won't like it, I don't know, but just, but don't judge it from one line in the Hollywood Reporter. Right. Are you, you've kind of become the de facto one of the guys that always comes out to have to defend the comic book movies when some of the luminaries come out

that we all love and respect, like the Jody Foster's and Scorsese's of the world, say certain things. Does it feel a little exhausted sometimes to be the guy that would be like, you know, I love you, Marty, but we'll hear me out here, or what? Do you feel a responsibility to kind of defend what you've devoted so much of your life and love to? Uh, you know, I don't know. I just think, you know, it's awful, it just seems awful cynical that he, you know, he would keep coming out against Marvel and then that's the only thing that would get

him pressed for his movie, so then he just kept coming out against Marvel so that he could get pressed for his movie. So he's creating his movie in the shadow of the Marvel films. And so he uses that to get attention for something that he wasn't getting as much attention as he wanted for it. And he's one of the greatest filmmakers who's ever existed. I love his movies. I can watch his movies with no problem. And he said a lot of things I agree with. There is a lot of things that are true about what he said. There are a lot of heartless, soulless, you know, spectacle films out there that don't reflect what should be happening. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times I've talked to film directors before they went in and made a big movie and said, hey, we're in this

together. Let's do something different with these big movies. Let's make them something different than everything that's come before them. Yeah. And then see them just go and just cater to every single studio whim or what's thought of and just be grossed out, frankly. So, you know, he said, well, a lot of what he said was good. And then also, like, he hasn't seen my movie. He doesn't know what my movie is. Sure. So, you know, it was, it was irritating. I was, you know, my feelings were hurt, you know. And listen, more hurt by, you know, Coppola comes out, who nobody's, you know, who comes out and says, they're despicable. That was way worse than when Martin Scorsese said, they're despicable.

I'm like, all right. Wow. That's like... Burn James Gunn at the stake for what he's done. How dare he? Are you excited? I'm kind of curious about Toxic Avenger. Are you curious as a trauma guy that's,

they're doing a Toxic Avenger movie? Do you know about that? Yeah, sure. I wish Lloyd all the luck. I hope he makes some money. He needs it. He's wearing a cardboard belt over here, as he used to always say to me.

I'm wearing a cardboard belt over here. Yeah. And finally, I'm just curious, you know, you've talked about, like, I get now your criteria. It doesn't matter what it is as long as, obviously, you just fall passionately in love with it. But, you know, I would love to see you kind of do, like, horror, like, obviously you've produced some stuff. Like, is there a script that you've worked on for years that you can imagine potentially coming back to more in the horror genre? No, I don't think I have any horror movie scripts left. I think they're all gone after Belko.

So, yeah, no, I don't, I don't know. I mean, it's possible, you know, but really, honestly, anything's possible. This is what that idea that I like in the moment. Well, you're a man of your word, you know, as I said, we talked about doing this for a while, and I'm glad, you know, finally, when it was time for you to chat again, you honored your promise. And I always love talking to you, man, and I'm very happy for you that out of this dark hour came this amazing great film, the Suicide Squad. Everybody should check out.

And best of luck on everything. Hopefully we'll chat again soon. Thanks a lot, Josh. Thanks for everything. I thought we were going for six hours, but I guess not. I got places to be. I don't know about you. I was like, you got those movies fast.

We need to take at least a couple hours of fees on those movies. Wow. You have Guardians three storyboards to draw. I do, dude. Let me tell you, it's killing me so much about it. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

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