Happy Sad Confused - James Gunn, Vol. III (SUPERMAN Spoiler Special)

Episode Date: July 18, 2025

James Gunn's SUPERMAN is out and it's time to talk spoilers! In this wide-ranging chat, Gunn talks everything from casting and cut scenes to the future of Superman and the entire DCU. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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some really interesting parallels that the Superman's journey in this film. He is brought down by internet trolls and is saved arguably by love and friendship. That's an interesting parallel to the journey you've been on. Literally never thought of it. Is that true? Yeah.

Until this moment, that never occurred to you? No. What do you have to say? What do I have to say? What do you have to say for yourself, James Gunn? Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused. begins now. Hey guys, I'm Josh, and this is another edition of Happy, Say I Confused. We have a special Superman episode with The Man of the Hour, writer, director, James

Gunn, back on the podcast talking all things Superman. This is a spoiler-filled conversation. Strap in. Here we go. I love these kind of chats, guys. Thanks, as always, for checking out. Happy, Say I Confused. Look, I always love a great filmmaker, but I love chatting with them when they can really let

it all hang out and have a. a deep, open conversation about their project, whether it's a Chris McQuarrie, the Blue Sobrothers have done this. We've done this with a bunch of great filmmakers at the end of the cycle. And this was truly, I think, James' last conversation, his last big interview after a very long road on Superman. Count me officially as a big-time Superman fan. Look, I've loved Superman. I've loved the Richard Donner Superman. I love Man of Steel. I even have a a fondness for Superman returns. I mean, in a way, maybe I'm a crazy person. And they all have things that I love about them. And the thing that I love maybe most about this Superman film,

for what it's worth, James Guns, is that it felt fresh. It felt unique. And after a lot of Superman in TV and film, that's saying something. It feels like a deeply personal movie. I found it funny and moving and weird and cool and invigorating and exciting. And, And I just loved so many aspects of it. The casting, I think David Gorn Sweat kills it. Well, you don't need my review, but that's where I'm coming from. As a big, deep fan of what James was able to accomplish here and just really relish this opportunity to dig into some of my burning questions. And I think, hopefully, some of yours.

So consider this your one-stop shop for all things, Superman, a deep dive into this major, major film. And also a sneak peek at a lot of things coming up in D.C. Yes, I hit them up with some very big questions about Batman and Wonder Woman and all sorts of future projects. So a lot here to enjoy. Before we get to the main conversation, as always, check out our Patreon. Patreon.com slash happy, say I confuse where we post all things early, extra stuff, access to our live events, merch. Support us over there. It helps us make more stuff over.

here. If you're going to be in San Diego for Comic-Con, guess what? So am I. I'm going to be doing my thing for MTV, hosting a lot of interviews there for them, but also moderating to major panels. So I hope to see some of you guys out there. I'm sure I will. Hall H. Saturday afternoon, get a load of this, doubleheader. I'm going to be hosting the Project Hail Mary event, and it will be an event. This is, of course, the film from Ward and Miller, from the book by Andy Weir, starring Ryan Gosling. They're all going to be there, as is Drew Goddard, the great screenwriter. This is going to be a big one.

I'm really excited about this. So that's Saturday afternoon, and it is followed immediately by another panel on moderating James Gunn again. James Gunn bringing his peacemaker cast, including, yes, John Sina talking about the second season, some cool exclusive stuff there, of course. So I'm really excited about the two events I will be moderating at Comic-Con. It's always treat. It's treat to see you guys in person. Feel the love. Feel the excitement for all things in the geek world.

So yeah, that's what's coming up. Other live events yet to be announced. Stop percolating for New York and LA. We'll keep you posted. I promise check out the Patreon. That's usually where we announce stuff early and get you discount codes. And I think that's about it. You guys are here for the main event.

I know you are. Let's get right to it. This is me and James Gunn just a couple days after the release of Superman, basking in the happy reviews, the solid box office. He's in a good mood. He's also probably in a good mood because he's about to take a little bit of a break, at least. So enjoy the spoiler conversation about Superman with writer-director James Gunn. Mr. James Gunn, this is a moment.

I was telling you before, I'm always appreciative of your time. But especially in this context, you are coming to the very end of a long road. Well, truly the very end. So I have, okay, so we started in London. Los Angeles, went to the Philippines, went to Brazil, this is all a matter of days, went to Brazil, went back to Los Angeles, went to London, went to Paris, back to Los Angeles, to China, and then here to New York City. You passed the test. Your mental acuity test. It was at all the point.

Am I doing okay? You're doing it. Oh, I'm surprised. No, truly congratulations. The movie is exceptional. And this, I was saying to you before, like, I'm excited because this is kind of, I'm doing this as an exit interview for you because this is the end of the press tour. We can hopefully kind of like exhale a little bit. Yeah. The reviews are great.

Yeah. The box office is great. I mean, I know you talked a lot about kind of not setting too much pressure on this film, on yourself, but you had to feel it. I mean, now in hindsight, now that you can start to look a little bit back and say it worked, were you feeling the pressure going into this? Yes. I mean, I have a strange way of approaching. work. So when I'm working, when I'm filming or writing, I really don't feel pressure. I'm having fun. That's my relief valve, right? You know, my relief valve. That's a word term. That's a relieving

time for me. But then outside of that, yeah, I felt a lot of pressure. I mean, there was a lot writing on this. So, yeah, and I was saying to someone before, it's like the relief is, from my perspective, is like, the movie's great. The movie works on its own. which is like what you need, but also I feel like you're going to have so much goodwill now going forward. Like we now believe in David as our Superman and the DCU.

And that's going to really engender, I think, I don't know, a lot of greatness to come, hopefully, I think that when I feel pressure, the first pressure, the most pressure I feel, is all to all the people that work so hard on this movie, the department heads and the actors that believe in it so much.

And Peter Safran, who they all believe, in this project so much from the beginning everyone was just wholeheartedly 100% in and if it comes out crap that's just sucks yeah um and so that's that's that's that's that's the first thing and then also you know we have Craig Gillespie working on Supergirl you know uh you know Chris and Damon and Tom working on lanterns you know play face crew crew is probably about the start yeah yeah James with Clayface and so There's all these other people working on these other projects that could have been either bolstered or hampered by this movie.

And thank God, they're all bolstered by it. Okay. So who have you heard from? Because now the movie's out in theaters. I'm sure friends, filmmakers, actors are coming out of the world. Everybody. Yeah, so many people. I mean, I just talked to Bradley Cooper this morning.

I talked to, you know, Darren Aronovsky immediately. Man, I could, you know, talk to Kathleen Kennedy last night. Anything meaningful? Like, in terms of the person or the person. the note of what they said that really, really touched you? There were lots of things that said that were incredibly touching. A lot of things

about, you know, Drew Godder writing me about him and his son being able to experience the movie together and what that meant to him. That's always some of the more meaningful things. But yeah, there's a lot. I mean, and that's the thing. I mean, I, you know,

I don't know if I quite expected this movie to have the emotion. impact that it has on so many people. Like, when I put out Guardians 3, I knew that that was an incredibly emotional film. Like, you know, and this one I didn't quite think of in that way. And so I'm really sort of taken aback and, you know, happily surprised by how many people have reacted to it in such a visceral and emotional way. Can you talk a little bit about, like, what did you feel like your biggest swing you were taking was?

What was the biggest risk you took creatively? The biggest risk I took was putting a 12-minute talking scene in a superhero movie. There's just no doubt. I don't think that anything. I think there were a lot of different. There were just so many creative swings, yeah. Which for many is their favorite scene in the film, by the way. Is it one of them?

It's fantastic. It's probably my favorite scene in the film. If I haven't seen it as many times that I have, and if I ever have to see it again, I'll jump out that window. Is there a seven-minute version of that, and a 20-minute version of that season? No. Is that basically the scene, man. That's the scene, man. That's the scene I wrote.

That's the scene that we screen tested with, and that's the scene that's in the movie. There's like maybe a line or two that we cut out, but hardly anything. It's remained relatively the same in terms of the dialogue, in terms of the shots we used and the way we orchestrated it. It has been endlessly, endlessly cut. I mean, just constantly changing it up until the, you know, right before we finish the cut. Is part of that also just like how each of your actors, each of these characters comes cross in the scene, like you want to see both sides, played equally to both. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, when I wrote the scene and I look at the scene

myself, I go, I see both their points of view. I see Lois's point of view. I see, you know, his point of view. She's talking about truth and he's talking about life. Right. Both important values and both their key important values in their lives. However, I do think that, you know, in a sort of gut reaction, we agree with Clark. And so that meant that I had to measure things out a little bit more as I was editing it because although Lois is making very, you know, good points. She's being practical. And but in our idealized version of ourselves, we want to do the right thing.

That's right. We know what morally is right. Listen, his way of looking at things is simple. And some would say simplistic. You know, life, you know, we have to save life. She's saying, well, maybe more lives are going to end because of you doing this than if you hadn't, you know, let's look at the big picture or at least take a step back for two seconds and try to figure it out before you act. He's a little rash, right, you know, and we see that. And I think that was one of the fun things about the scene, too, is we're seeing sort of the beauty of Superman and this love of everyone and of protecting all life.

Yeah. also seeing some of his flaws. He's a little rash. He is not as quick on his feet as low as is. And so we get to see a lot more of Superman, I think, than we've ever seen before. And his fatal flaw, he can't operate small electronic. Yeah, he doesn't know where the button is. Yeah.

I mean, another big risk potentially you might have felt for yourself is, and you've talked about this to a degree, but I want to talk about the music of the film. Because this is like a real change up for you. And I think it worked out in spades. I mean, that's good. I mean, that was scary. Yeah, because that's been a lifeline for you throughout your career. It really has been, yeah. Like the needle drops, you know your music, you know your soundtracks.

Did you ever second guess that decision to go score heavy and only keep the mic drops to a minimum? Yes. At what stage? Every stage? About halfway through editing, you know. No, no. I mean, the whole time it was always scary. It's like, you know, I don't want to say that that's a crutch of mine, but, you know,

know, I know music. And so I'm very aware of how to use, you know, pop songs in a way that bolster a film. And it is an easy thing to do. And it's a fun thing to do. It's enjoyable. It's not like it's, you know, just a crutch. But to actually rely on the score a lot more was difficult. And it took a, it was a real balancing act to get the score right. Because, you know, we start writing the score, you know, like John Murphy started writing the score. I gave him the script as soon as I was done with it, the first draft. And so we started writing the score very early. And then a lot of that is in the movie.

So like the love theme that's in the movie, most of Lex's themes, those are all in the movie. Right, you're playing those on set. I know that final shot of them going up. Going up, we were playing the music as they were swinging around. So those things stayed the same. But other things, the movie ended up having a little bit of a lighter tone than the original, some of John's original score was so we worked with both John and Dave Fleming

who did a lot of the score to lighten things a little bit because some of the music wasn't quite matching the film right so when you're midway through that edit do you experiment with dropping in some songs were there versions of this that had no there was a one point that I used an idol song

while, you know, Superman was flying. Okay. But that's the only needle drop that I ever took in and or out. And I wasn't even sure about it. I'm like, got it. I said to Bill Hoyer, editor, can you try playing this during this time? Got it. And it just was, it was too short of a moment to use. All right. Can we go a little bit back? Okay. So the birth of this film, I mean, had a, the earliest incarnation is obviously for those that don't know, when they come to you and they say, please do Superman, you say, I want to do suicide squad. This is back in the wish, about 2018.

Well, it wasn't quite like that. Okay. It was they said, please do Superman. They said, Superman, Superman. I said, I don't know. And they said, what we really need is Suicide Squad sequel. Oh, really? Okay.

So I said, okay. That makes sense to me. So I was like, all right, yeah. So what was, is anything from, because you at least entertained an idea. You started to noodle around with the Superman idea then. Yeah, I, well, I started thinking about it then. But the truth is that I didn't say yes initially to the Suicide Squad either. I actually took three different DC ideas and wrote them out and was playing with them.

And one of them, I will reveal to you for the first time ever was a crypto movie. That had Superman sort of chasing after crypto, which I didn't really remember until just this moment. So that was so is crypto was front and center and Superman was a supporting guy. Superman was a supporting character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. You know. What was the third?

Can you say what the third was? That one I better not say. Because it's a, it's complicated. It's complicated. I'll tell you else afterwards. But the suicide squad, you know, I really like to, you know, kind of make sure I've got the whole, you know, central court of the story. Yeah. Before I agree to do something.

And so I found it with. Suicide Squad, and that's why I proceeded with that. Okay. So then jumping ahead, I just want to get my timeline down right, because I was somewhat in the middle of this in a weird way because I talked to Henry Cavill in the middle of when Black Adams coming out. Oh, good God. Yeah. And we love Henry, of course. Yes, he's the sweetest guy.

Sweet guy. Love him. And he has the cameo at the end. We had a big moment on stage where he thought he was coming back. We all thought he was coming back. But maybe unbeknownst to him or not, you're already writing a Superman movie, which is clearly for a different, a younger actor. then soon thereafter, you get the gig as the head of DCU, correct? I have this roughly right?

Yeah, that's right. Yes, correct. So then at a certain point, you and Peter have to have that unfortunate phone call, I would imagine. No, we sat down with him. We sat down with Henry. So without revealing too much, I mean, can you, I mean, what is that like to have to be the guy to tell Superman, thank you for your time. We have to go a different way now. It's terrible.

Yeah. So, I mean, I was, so, believe it or not, I was, the day we, you know, are we, you know, so we were dealing with trying to figure out if we could take the job at D.C. studios. Yeah. And we're talking to David Zazlov and all the legal people there and figuring out what our deals would be. And the day, day our deal closed, all of a sudden they were announcing that, you know, and that Henry was bad. And I'm like, what is going on? We know what the plan is. Like, we, we know what the plan is. The plan was to come in and do Superman.

Yeah. So it was, it was really unfair to him and was a total bummer. But there was a vacuum in, at the time. And a lot of people were trying to be as diplomatic as possible. There were other people that, that were to take on what they wanted to do. They had, they wanted to take on what they wanted to do at D.C. and we're trying to force their way. And it just was never a part of the equation for David Zazlov, who was the head of WVD.

So, yeah, so we came in, and that was really unfortunate. I'm like, this poor guy. And so Peter and I, the right thing to do is to sit down with him and talk to him. And we sat down, we talked to him. He was an absolute gentleman, a great guy about it. He said, the only thing I ask is that I'm able to reveal it myself as opposed to coming from you guys. And I'm like, that's a class act. Oh, it's has been from the start.

Yeah. Would it be too confusing to cast him in your DC universe going forward? No. Is another character? Yeah. Absolutely not. Yeah. No, I talked to him about it on that day. So, yeah, no, I would love to put Henry in something.

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Protein without all the work, at participating restaurants in Canada. All right, so let's talk a little bit more about plot-wise and choices you made here. The opening and closing always baked into that script, was the opening where we see Superman, was the closing moments him in that chair seeing his parents, did you do it all around with how it was going to begin and end?

The opening is where I, began the story. So that was really what kick started the story for me. And the closing, I can't remember when I came to it. Okay. So opening wise, it was important to you to find him like in media res in the middle of the action. Yeah. He's at his lowest point. He's lost for the first time. Yeah. I mean, people always use this phrase. So it was important. And I'm like, none of this is important, man. It's a choice. I mean, it got to be something. Yeah, I thought it was. And relatively, it was important. Right.

I mean, it was just where I was inspired, you know? I mean, I had just got in my dog. I've told the story a million times. Just got my dog. I'm like, oh, yeah. So there were two things that sort of kickstarted the idea of what this could be for me. The first was my terrible dog. Right.

And the second was the idea of Superman with a little bit of blood in his mouth. Right. And I kind of put those two moments together and I ended up there. And, you know, and went directly into the fortress rising and the robots. And then I knew I had atone. that I could deal with, which was, you know, those different things combined. When did the opening crawl enter the picture? Much later.

That was after test screenings. Okay. So there was a version that didn't have anything. There was versions without it. Yeah. And so it was, you know, the movie, people loved the movie, but they found themselves confused going into this other universe. Right.

And I thought, Star Wars, actually more confusing if you think about it. Like, what if we just went with Luke and there was never any, you know, it would be hard to figure out what was going on. And so I thought of that crawl and I thought, wow, not only did the crawl help the story, but I loved the crawl as a kid. I thought it was cool. So adding, you know, I think it really helps to set up the fact that this is an alternate history. This is an alternate reality. Yes. This is not our world.

You know, it's one of the things I loved about DC Comics is that it isn't New York and Los Angeles. It's Gotham and Metropolis and Evergreen and Star City. And we're creating an alternate reality. And so in that way, it is a lot more like Game of Thrones or Star Wars. Ever consider a narrator to do that opening crawl or was it always just text on screen? No, because I think the quiet of the quiet of the quiet, of the, the, you know, ice planes is too important. All right.

So a lot has been made, and I, I tend to agree with this. I mean, look, you write a film, you're going to be many of your characters. You relate to a lot of these characters, I would imagine. Yeah. There are some really interesting parallels that the Superman's journey in this film. He is brought down by internet trolls and is saved, arguably, by love and friendship. That's an interesting parallel to the journey you've been on. Literally never thought of it.

Is that true? Yeah. To this moment that never occurred to you? No. What do you have to say? What do I have to say? What do you have to say for yourself, James Gunn? It's not a defense, but like, I mean, it seems a pretty clear A-B.

Well, first of all, he's not really brought down by internet trolls. They just, you know, they add to it. He's brought down by a guy who's trying to murder him. Sure, you didn't have that part. Yeah, that's, I mean, the guy's trying to kill him. He puts, you know, stuff in his. I mean, I don't want to spoil. We put those bad things.

We're good. Yeah, yeah. He put stuff in his lungs to murder him. That's not brought. That's nothing. The internet trolls are nothing compared to the manites in his lungs. So when you're writing the monkey bots, et cetera, you're not thinking at all about your own experiences. I really am thinking about the fact that government's tire bots to, you know, do create all this mischief.

Yeah. So it's more about that. But, I mean, is it, you know. is it funny to me yesterday? I saw somebody yell something about the movie. And then Mitch Gerrard, who's a comic book writer, just responded with the little keyboard emoji and a monkey emoji. And I'm like, oh, I like that.

That's funny. Yeah, I don't know if you ever have a hashtag as good as super shit associated with your name. That's everything. Yeah. I've had worse. Believe me. Can we talk about their Lex and Superman's speeches towards the end? Yeah.

That really, like, explicate. And only in a movie like this, I think can you have that kind of speech? think that really is like a fun lean into it like this is who i am yeah this is what i stand yeah yeah yeah and you really get a clear vision of superman embracing humanity and and wanting desperately to be human uh and lex just being fueled by envy yeah um can you talk a little bit about where those two speeches came from were they self-evident um well i always knew you know that they were later editions in the script okay they were from before we were shooting, but, like, they were later editions, the Superman Lex facing off.

And, you know, so, I mean, the Lex speech, not the Lex, the Lex speech that he gives to Superman, that was a part, sorry, that was a part of the movie from the very beginning. I mean, like, that was always baked in. But the Superman speech at the end was a late addition because I felt like we needed it. just to underline who he is. What's, what's important to him, his values is. Yeah, to sum it up. I mean, to sum up what he's learned, you know. And that speech was the greatest moment for me on set in my life, maybe,

because it was this great moment where, and we have this all, like there's a behind the scenes documentary that I think is going to come out with the Blu-ray. and it was David as you know people know by now who have been reading any has a lot of questions and he just got a lot he just questions everything all the time right and and he's a very actory actor yeah and the guys who I'm used to dealing with are Chris Pratt and John Cena they're my my two stars I work with all the time and they don't They are not that. They are very, boom.

Yeah. You know, and they just have learned to trust me no matter what, right. And that's what you got for hiring Juilliard. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. And so, and so David is giving the speech. And I had so much writing on the speech because I didn't think the movie would work if the speech didn't work. And he came in. I was so nervous about it because I'm like, it could be too cheesy.

It could. I may not believe him when he says it. And he comes in and he delivers his speech beautifully. And so I'm like, thank you, Jesus, right? And then I said, okay, that was great. Let's do it again, but do it more intensely. Right. You know, be louder with it.

Yeah. And so David does it again. He does it the way I wanted him to do it and he doesn't more intensely. I'm like, that's even better. Holy crap. I'm like, David, do it like that one more time like that. You know, because I, you know, get. Also remember, so this shot is hard.

because he gives the speech, right? And we have the camera, moving forward with him as he gives the speech. Then we pan over to Lex, and Lex has to give his speech. Now, Nick Cole is the unsung hero in this story because he's perfect every time and never misses.

But we swing over to Lex, and then Lex gives his speech, and then we have to curl around Lex and come around as he's giving his speech. And at the exact right moment, with the camera coming to the exact right point about to stop and Lex about to stop his speech, he's got to get hit by right crypto and go down.

So Nick has to go like this. The exact right moment. The pressure is really on Nick this whole time. So the pressure's on Nick, of course, I don't even think about Nick because he's perfect. He's like the favorite son. David's a prodigal son. But they know it.

They're okay with that. I love them both. And so David, you know, David starts to give the speech again, and then he stops and he says, James, I just don't, I just don't know. I just had this conversation with my father about, you know, this stuff. So I don't feel like I should be, I wouldn't, you know, I'm not sure I would be upset because I've been, you know, kind of cured by my dad. And like, you know, it's like blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, okay. And so I'm on what we call the God Mike talking into him and the other.

he's, he's, he's only as far as that. I'm not, he's not far, but he's through a wall, right? And I say, no, David, because of this. And we're, have this back and forth going. Yeah. Where, you know, the point of it is, is that just because logically his dad has taught him what's right, it doesn't mean emotionally the words Lex is saying don't hurt his feeling. And that you can be somewhere with your logic and your emotions are still there.

And this is about him owning his emotions and experiencing his emotions and being honest in that moment, even though his dad, you know, his conversation with his dad changed him forever. Right. And he came in and I was saying it a much stronger way than that. And David came in and he was, he actually see him come in and the other room. And he's like, I just. And I'm like, and I'm like, no, you feel this. It's in here. It's about what's in your heart.

And I'm hitting him in the heart. And then all of a sudden, David looks at me and he goes, got it. And then he walks back in stage and he delivers the speech. And it's absolutely, like, beautiful. And I learned something that day because, you know, I learned that my, you know, David's way was great. my way was better but when David and I were on the same page that was the best that's what's about film is a collaborative medium and it was it was fantastic um and and yeah i got teary eyed it was it was one of my favorite days on set david wrote me afterwards said this is my favorite day ever

you know with a director um you know and so it was uh it was a really great moment and that's that's our relationship i mean yeah that explains my my relationship with David better than anything, you know? And it's just he's, he is a really talented guy and a good friend. And, um, uh, you know, uh, but, uh, but he's, he's a handful. You know, David's my crypto. He's just the rassable. He just gets on your skin.

He just can't be controlled, can't be contained. Um, let's talk a little casting since you mentioned David. So the war is, and we know obviously Nick was one of the finalists. It was David, Nick, and an actor, I believe, Tom Brittany was brought in. So, I'm going to take a risk and say, yeah, it was Tom, who is amazing. He's tested for me a couple of times. He's one of my favorite actors in the world. And I normally don't say when an actor test, because that's up to the actor to say if they want to test.

But I'm going to say, in this case, that Tom Brittany tested, and he's an amazing actor. and I hope to use them someday, and I hope, you know, other people are turned on to this guy because he's just, he keeps being near misses, you know. Where Nick and Tom's takes interesting in their own way. Oh, my God, they were so good. They were so different and so good. Yeah. Tom, Tom was really fantastic, yeah. There was talk that you went to Bradley initially for Luther.

I did talk to Bradley about it when we had a short conversation. And at the end, I think, you know, I did want, uh, I did. did want Lex to be someone that was more contemporary of of Superman's. Did you write it in a specific way with an age, like associated in the script? I didn't write it as an age, but like, I just, I think that Lex Luther is important to Superman. I think he's also important to the future of the DC universe. And I thought it was probably better. But yeah, Bradley would have been a great Lex. I mean, he's probably great at everything. He's pretty good. Was there ever a, you could have Had Lex be a physical adversary, obviously in the comics, he does Don that suit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that caught that suit. We still got plenty of time, man. Right. So in this initial. We see the early prototypes of that suit. Right, of course. So never in this script, though. You never have as a physical adversary.

All right. The biggest question that people have asked probably you already is about Jorel and Lara's message. Is it real? Has it been doctored? Is that the actual message? How can someone not think it's real? I'm just saying how can someone I don't understand like we did this so in the test screens we're like is it real you know with AI nobody trusts anything okay in the movie you make a point of saying he's that way mr terrific says it's real mr terrific says I know those computer forensics guys there's no way that's Mr. Terrifics smart is Lex Luthor then I have Mori the secretary of defense say I think whatever you think about Luther, but it's real. And then the clincher is that Gercos and Lex are walking together.

Right. And, you know, Gurkos says, ah, you doctored a message. This is great. And Lex says it's not a message. You know, it's not doctor. It's real. And who thought his own parents would be the ones to bring him down? Okay. We just clarified, just for the record. I just want to get it down. Are there implications for this going forward or have you dealt with this? I mean, do you, Do you imagine this being dealt with in future Superman's stories? I mean, honestly, I think he deals with it in this story pretty much. I mean, I think that this story at the heart of it is a story about a guy who's doing things he thinks for reasons outside of himself. Yeah.

Comes to realize through the love of a parental figure, his father and mother, that he is not doing things because of someone outside himself. He's doing things because of that's what he believes. It's not an outside force. him what to do or what to think. He's doing it. It's not destiny. Right. It's his own choice. There are there are also echoes of Star War ego yonder in this kind of like trio. Has that I mean in terms of like the dad that's the birth father. Oh yeah. That betrays you. That isn't who you think. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The adoptive father who really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah. I don't know. So I have. a lot of adopted kids in my family. My best friend is adopted. A few of my best friends are adopted.

I don't know why it is that those themes speak to me, but they do. So we've talked a little bit about some changes in the process of test screening, et cetera. You think, I believe, Drew Goddard, who you've mentioned, Damon Lindeloff. Any specific notes from those two gentlemen? Drew was a really helpful one. So we had three or four things that were. you know, heatedly debated

throughout this movie. Now's the time. Okay. Saving the squirrel. Okay. Heatedly debated. Just too much?

Too much. Like some audience members didn't, why is he saving a squirrel? Because it's a cute little adorable squirrel that was about to be crushed by a tail. Those are sociopaths,

those auditors. I was, come on. It wasn't a small amount of people. A lot of squirrel haters out there. Who knew? And this is in Los Angeles. Like Michael Rooker, he eats squirrels.

He does. Of course. He hunts and eats squirrels. That's for real. That's not a joke. So the squirrel was a huge debate. Another debate was, and this was probably the biggest. There was two biggest ones.

The other debate was Guy Gardner didn't call him a wuss in the first cut. He called him something else. P words, I assume. Yes. Yes. Okay. And it got an enormous laugh, an enormous laugh because he said, you know, he said, don't be such a, and then he's, and then Clark goes, and this is what was cut, Clark goes, hey, there are kids here. And then guy goes, I said don't be. And then he walks away. And so that was a big debate, whether we're going to keep that word in. And there were a couple of other little things, but the other big one was, does Jimmy smile at the end when Eve hugs him? Oh, interesting. That's the biggest. Okay. I think.

That one in the P word. So it's like, so he at the end, at the end, Jimmy, we had different versions of Eve, and I got him on purpose. So Eve hugs Jimmy, and in one version, he just smiles. And another version, he just stares out until the dark void that goes on. forever. It's relatable. And then the third version, he kind of like looks. Accepts his spades.

And then he gives into it and smiles because she did save the day. She is the unsung hero of the movie. Absolutely. Selfies save the day. Selfies save the day. So there were three different versions. I will admit, I was, although I was pro-girl, I was pro-void. Fair enough.

Peter Saffron was very pro-smile. And we argued about this, although it wasn't as heated as the P-word arguments. What about? I also heard that maybe Lex's actions were a little bit darker, that he went even further. I mean, he kills a guy point blank. But like, did you have to talk about a bit of Lex's behavior? Okay. Yeah.

Well, there's a really dark thing in there. There was a really dark thing. But it was never a big. Once I saw the movie, I'd like this is. What was it? So, oh, my God. It's so bad. So.

So, so, Lex shoots a guy in the head. Yeah. That was always done in this extreme wide, so it's not too graphic. But the guy fell on the ground and blood is pouring out onto the platform. And Lex looks down and he sees that the blood is about to get on his shoes. And he's like, oh my God, my shoes. I feel like he's very, you know, it's like me. He's very OCD.

Like, I don't like stuff. So he's like, oh, my God. my shoes. He's like, Gercos, get down on the ground and soak up the blood. Sure. And Gercos goes, what? No. And Nick looks at him. He's the delivery is great because he just looks at him and he looks at him straight and he's like, no. And then Gercos just cheapestly, like sadly trudges forward and lays down on his back. And he was like a so fun. And he lays down on his back and then just starts soaking up the blood and then Nick looks over it. You know, Superman says, I'll see you tomorrow.

And then they drive away. Mr. Handsome take me away. And so that was a scene we shot. Right. But you knew even that. I cut it pretty early from the movie. So that was never, I don't even think it was ever even in a test screening. Can we talk a little bit of Hall of Justice, the mural?

We do see some. Yeah, the mural's cool, right? Right. So people are now starting to pick it apart and see some notable faces. Who do they think? Jay Garrick, Flash. Really? Okay.

Alan Scott. Green Lantern? I don't think so. I got to look at the... Dr. Fate in there? I think Dr. Fate's in there. Yeah. Were any other characters considered for the Justice Gang,

besides the ones you landed on? Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, all over the place. Not that I remember. I mean, you know, not that I remember. remember okay they happen to be three of my favorites so i just kind of was picking my favorite my favorite children any other villains we obviously have lex but you could have done brainiac brainiac was considered yeah okay i think i think that that was sort of considered but yeah um everyone pronounces a differently mixelplic i feel like uh if anyone could do it maybe you could do a mr mixoplix it yeah yeah um uh

Yeah, I, I, uh, no. You could have, Ultraman could have, I could have seen a version where that's Bizarro, literally Bizarro Superman. Right, exactly. Is that, this is your take on Bizarro or could Bizarro Superman be something that we see at some point? Um, well, we'll have to see where we go next. Okay. That's a very vague answer, but.

That means I'm hitting Paderd. I'm hitting the good stuff. No, it just means, or it just means I don't know what the hell I'm doing yet. Okay, well, let's get to that. We do know you are writing. a script you've been writing, which is another Superman involved story. Yes. Fair enough to say? Totally fair enough to say.

You have been cagey, though, in saying it's not... I'm being very cagey. Not exactly a Superman sequel per se. Here's what I... Okay, from the fan perspective, one of the regrets around Postman of Steel was we never got like another Superman adventure. Yes. Right?

We never got... Henry didn't get his shot in another Superman movie. Yes, yeah. So make me feel better. Like it's it's superman is very important it's not like and it isn't Batman versus Superman it isn't okay it's not it's not world's finest Batman Superman okay okay this is getting touchy territory um this is intended to be the next one you direct is there timeline and when you think we might hear about this yes sooner than later yes like this week no can we I like interviews where I just say yes or no You're enjoying this?

I'm going to do that. The next press tour, I'm just going to be, okay, everybody, only yes or no questions. It'll be so much less stressful. The audience loves all of these characters, and there's already talk supposedly Mr. Terrific. People love Mr. Terrific. Yeah, they love Mr. Terrific. They love Jimmy Olson. They love Eve.

I mean, everybody. I mean, it's like, it's great. Guy Gardner. So how far along sounds like Mr. Terrific and Jimmy are both being considered for series? That's what. One could see a daily planet show with Jimmy front and center. That doesn't seem like a crazy one could see that, Josh. Should we talk about Batman for a second?

Oh, God. The hardest something. That don't hurt. The good news is you got the script. I mean, Guy Gardner is going to be in lanterns. Yes, we know that. Can we talk about the things that we are out there? I've actually said, as opposed to the whispers online

that are sometimes made up and sometimes real. I'm trying to clarify things. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no, but a banana.

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One battle after another. Only in theater September 26th. Experienced in IMAX. You came high. Okay, we do know Matt Reeves did deliver the script. Yeah, he did. We know you read it and you seemed very pleased. I like it, yes.

So, on track for that release day. release date we feel like now we're we're headed in the right direction oh yeah for sure we're headed in the right direction so there's some things we still got to work out but like it's it's uh yeah it's it's head in the right direction for sure so look we've had this conversation before but i'm going to bring up the batman dc u stuff like again so like obviously braven the bold we know is being written and the dc u batman is still intended to be a different batman than rob i guess my question is like timeline a lot is like how does this work like is there you i presume you wouldn't want to release braven bold and the batman too in the same calendar

year. It like starts to get a little confusing or no, you tell me, I mean, to have a two Batman running around at the same time. Probably not. But yeah, probably not. No. Probably not. Probably not. No. Probably not the same calendar year. Yeah. Do you, is Bravenbold when you think we'll see that Batman for the first time? I'm not going to say that. Okay. Have you gotten into casting yet? in your head. No. Why are you winking at him? Isn't that weird?

What do you think about the fans that talk about someone like Alan Richson? I am a big Alan Richland fan, both as an actor and as a guy. Let's just wait to see what happens. Okay, okay. I guess my only other thing I'll say on that front, and then I'll move on my promise is again, and you can say anything you want or nothing at all. But like when you're casting that role, it would seem to me you have to differentiate in some substantial way the take on Batman so it doesn't get confusing, right? Like whether it's a different age,

a different vibe, something. Is that in your head like when we get there? That's always going to be the case. Yeah. What two Batman's have the same vibe? Well, Clooney and Kilmer. That's fair. Okay. Okay. I mean, just because, but they're the same director. Right. You know what I mean? So it's like... It's dictated by the material and the take as much as much as a take. Yeah. Of course. The actors, you know, actors aren't important. We're nothing else. No, listen, and do I ever think about it? Sure, there's people out there I think about, but let's see where the script comes in.

Okay. It's not the furthest along thing. I mean, we have things that are much, much further along. Okay. Let's talk about the further along. Supergirls in the can. Supergirls in the can. Don't leave out Peacemaker, too. We're going to be talking about that in about a week. I'm very excited about Peacemaker 2. is a direct follow-up to Superman. We have, you know, we have so many characters from Rick Flags in it, Hot Girl, Maxwell Lord, you know, Guy Gardner. So it's the direct follow-up to Superman. And very R-rated.

I can't wait. I can't wait. We are going to see, we're going to see not only Lobo, but Crypto and Supergirl. Lobo is so freaking awesome. Jason Momoa is so, oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, we've all agreed. Like, this was like the easiest casting ever.

It was. Well, he pushed himself on me, too, I got to say. But yeah, Lobo is great. And then, and that's great. And then we have lanterns coming out, which is great. We have Clayface, which is about to go into production. Cast your Clayface. You have James Watkins directing. This is going to be. And you've said the script is what sold you. I was always going to sell you. Yeah, yeah. This is a total horror movie. Like, really, it's like it could be. We, Blumhouse, you know, big budget horror film. And it's, it's, but it's within the DCU, which I think is a cool thing to do. Let me just run down a few others. You tell me as much as you want or not. So like, are we anywhere on like a Wonder Woman script? Yes.

Yeah? Yes. You feel like there's a take. There's a direction. Yes. That feels distinct from what we've seen before. Yeah. Very.

Yes. Okay. Yes. I'm excited about very, very excited about Wonder Woman right now. Do you anticipate seeing something like, a new flash, a new Aquaman in the next few years? Or is that a little ways off? I wouldn't say the next two years for either of those characters.

Okay. Okay. The authority? Still on your mind? Yeah, but that's been a rough. That's a slower one? Yeah. Just harder to crack, harder to?

Yeah. I moved, the writer moved on this to another project in the DCU that I think he's really killing right now. So, okay. And that project would be another, another movie. No, we haven't talked. about? Yeah. Okay.

Swamp thing? Has Mangold delivered a script? We talked to James the other day. So, no, he hasn't delivered a script. He's been distracted with his billions of movies. Yes. But I think, you know, we're talking about it again. And Sergeant Rock seemed like it was very close.

Do you still have hopes that it's going to come back around relatively soon? Hugely. Okay. That's, it's, yeah, I'm really excited about Sergeant. And with Luca still involved? No. Okay. Okay.

Is there one filmmaker, if you had your druthers, if you could lure anybody into the DCU, who would you grab? Make your pitch. Matt Reeves. He already got him. No. He's not in the DCU. Have you talked to?

He must have talked to him about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, Matt, Matt, to me. You know, listen, Matt, I love the, I love the people that are out there making pop movies that are still, you know, it's Matt Reeves, it's Greta Gerwig, it's Ryan Coogler. It's their vision. It's the guys that, you know, and I'm friendly with all those people. And they just, they're making big movies that still have, you know, themselves.

And they're personal, yet they resonate with everybody. And so I really, I love people that are taking risks in. the area of spectacle film because most of the stuff out there is not a risk. It's just, you know, it's disposable. Yeah. You know, I love disposable stuff. Yeah. But let's make it good disposable.

Okay, fair enough. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's like I love big popcorn movies, but it's just like it gets to be, you know, boring when they're all the same. Okay, I'll end with this. What's the barometer of success if I taught, when we talk in five years or 10 years? and you're presumably still at D.C. I mean, is it about who you've introduced,

what you've done, like what you've led to? I mean, how are you gauging your own success? James, what is your relationship with her wife like now that she's forgiven you for disappearing for three years? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's really, it is, the barometer of success is, for me, am I enjoying myself creatively?

And I have enjoyed myself creatively over the past three years. But it's also, it's just been too much. I've done too much, which is like, it needed to be done. This is a kickstarting this whole enterprise. So I needed to do too much. But I've, it was, it was too much. And I need to balance out my life with my work. And then hopefully that will make my work even better.

Right. You know? And I'm not stupid enough to say, oh, if I love the movie, then it's a success. Right. Because it's not. Sadly, it's not that easy. Yeah. You know, but what I think of the movie itself isn't really the most important thing.

What I think of the process of making the movie. Now, that belongs to me. The movie isn't mine. The movie belongs to everybody else. Right. But the process, that belongs to me. So if there is a metric for success, it's going to be like over the past few years, did you, I don't want to say enjoy yourself.

But was it rich? Was it fulfilling? Yeah. Was it purposeful? You know, those are the things that I really look for. And luckily, I'm making, you know, this movie in particular did feel purposeful from the very beginning. Because I sat down with the casting crew on the night. We had dinner the night before we started shooting.

And we're like, this is a film about goodness. And everybody believed in that. you know because i have been extraordinarily blessed to have really good people around me on this project and they're flawed just like lois and clark more than lois and clark but they're all really good people this cast this crew and i'm and and we all believed in this movie so much and to see it um doing so well by every metric yeah um is uh is is is is oh man it feels good Get some rest. You deserve it. I will say, like speaking on behalf of millions that don't get a chance to say it to your face, I've seen it a couple of times. And I feel happy. I feel hopeful. I feel invigorated and excited. And I feel like a kid again when I watch these movies, this movie. Congratulations. It's a tough feat to, like, create a different Superman movie than we've ever seen. We've seen a lot of Superman movies. And this one's really special. So, thank you. So rest easy and I'll talk to you really soon. Thank you. I'll see you, Comic-Con. Exactly. Thanks, you did it.

man. Thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from The League, Big Veep or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that dude too is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone.

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