Happy Sad Confused - James Mangold

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

James Mangold joins Josh to talk about taking on Indiana Jones in INDIANA JONES & THE DIAL OF DESTINY, plus updates on his upcoming Bob Dylan film with Timothee Chalamet, a STAR WARS movie, and SWAMP THING! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Let's add one more where, a global pandemic. During a global pandemic. But somehow... Putting you to the test. Yeah, yeah. I'm still here. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, I'm Josh Horowitz, and I'm welcoming one of my favorite filmmakers to the podcast, a man who has never shied away from a challenge, a Johnny Cash biopic, that's easy, kill off Wolverine, and earn the respect of the critics, fans, and the Academy? No problem. How about stepping into the shoes of the most celebrated filmmaker ever to bid adieu to maybe the most iconic adventurer in all of sales?

cinematic history. James Mangold is the man for the job. And today his job is also to be on my podcast finally. Jim, it's great to see you men. We did it. You're there. It's good to see you, man. Somehow you've eluded the podcast for a while, but I'm excited to have you and I'm doubly excited. I've been eluding it. I've been unaware of my alluding it. I've been living, I lived in England and around the world for the last year and a half making this huge undertaking. So it's all good. I've been giving you trouble. No, all is forgiven. We get a chance to just talk about Indiana Jones for about 45 minutes. That's not a tough day at the office. All right. So let's just dig right into it, man.

You know, this this task at hand is a monumental challenge to say the least. What's it take to officially say yes, after you weigh all the options to say, I'm going to dive in? Is it a little insanity, a little hubris, a little bit of like, wait, if I say no to this, I'm going to regret it the rest of my life. Put me in your head a little bit. Well, when I first got contacted by Harrison and Stephen and Kathy and this idea was first floated to me, I was, of course, intrigued, but also freaked out that it, because it seemed like, you know, pinch hitting for Babe Ruth seems like a no-win proposition on some levels. And the, Um, uh, so the, but it was, it was the power of the company I was in that did more to get me to jump aboard than anything else.

What I mean by that is just that almost all the people involved with these films are heroes of mine. Uh, and, and with the exception of Harrison, I really didn't know any of them very well, um, uh, until this process began. And there was such warmth and such a sense of support and such an absence of political intrigue or some kind of corporate burden. It just felt like everyone wanted to make a really good movie. And it seemed like there would be a tremendous amount of freedom to do that. So the idea of getting to work intimately with lifelong cinematic heroes, with a canvas like Indiana Jones, with an actor like Harrison who was already a friend of mine

and someone who I got to know pretty well, it seemed like I could see on a very personal level a reason to do it, just to have this experience of working with all these legends, I mean, including John Williams writing the score, which I hoped he would, you know, at that point, 90 now 91 um the the the the really the the the the thing the barrier that had to be crossed is when i saw the script that they had i realized why the thing hadn't gelled yet which is there was nothing innately wrong with it but it didn't seem to be about anything which is not necessarily out of the ordinary for movies these days but but for me i just didn't know why I'd be making it other than the company and the IP and that the studio

wanted another Indiana Jones movie. I didn't understand why it needed to exist. And you need that to get through the tough days. If you're going to commit two and a half years of your life, sure, it's a fun experience to hang out with these guys, but like to keep the fire lit, you need to. Honestly, I needed to know what I'm doing because if I'm making a movie where all I'm doing is trying to make it cool and spectacular, but I don't know. know why what it's about yeah i'm kind of like a man in the woods without a compass i'm kind of a pointless director um the the so what occurred to me very strongly um was a kind of dose of a bracing dose of honesty that i just tried to see if i unloaded this on everybody whether

they'd all just run for the hills or stay with me and what that was was just that the strong feeling that this needed to be a movie about getting old and that this is a my star is pushing 80 at that point pushing now firmly in the grasp of it and and there's no way around that you can't make one of those pictures with a guy pretending he's 45 but in its late 60s there's no way there's no fudgy room he's an old guy and and that doesn't mean you make the movie about oh my back aches It means you make the movie about someone in the final chapter of their lives who is reckoning with all that's happened and what is left and to happen. And to me, the second I could envision that, the second it became a more honest film, which I feel these films have always been really at their core entertainments, but they always were about something. And so what I presented them was this idea that the movie would be about time.

And that therefore, because I'm a kind of, as you know me, I'm kind of a brainiac academic about movies. And every Indiana Jones movie, the relic isn't just a relic, but the relic embodies a kind of question or mysticism or magic that relates to the theme of the whole picture. and that, you know, a movie about fatherhood ends up getting the blessing of one of the knights of the roundtable. A movie about a kind of Asperger'sy professor who hides in books ends up being about him having to confront the power of God inside a golden box. Each movie, the relic, is not just valuable or important or magical, but that the magic itself and the kind of magic it possesses ends up relating. to the actual theme of that picture. And if that makes any sense. So I know it does, yeah.

So I confronted all of them with this kind of slew of ideas. And to my great surprise, none of them ran away. And they all seem to smile and get excited. And at that point, I said, well, then here's the other problem. You have this movie dated in a way that I'd have to generate the script for this movie that doesn't exist on paper yet in the next 24 days. So we need to push the picture.

At that point, that became a much bigger powwow and they had to say goodbye. Meaning I had to say, they said, so you won't do it if we don't give you significantly more time. And I said a year. And I said, that is the deal. And they went away and I didn't hear from them for a few weeks.

And then they came back and said, okay, they might have gone out to every other director in town. Maybe they just confabbed among them. themselves or maybe they just had to go upstairs to Bob Eiger and Alan Horn and Alan Bergman and go, can we push the picture and are you okay with that? And whatever had to happen when they came back and said, we'll do it, it was also fortuitous because the Bob Dylan movie, the movie I was making about Bob Dylan in the early 60s was also falling apart due to COVID.

That was the moment of the pandemic landing on us. And it did seem to me that if they could agree, and that probably helped them push the picture as well because we were all facing the mystery of what movie production was going to be, although we ended up shooting the movie at the height of the pandemic anyway. But which try, try that on. Go, go step into Stephen Spielberg's directing chair and direct an Indiana movie around. Let's add one more where, a global pandemic. During a global pandemic. but somehow putting you to the test yeah yeah I'm still here you're still here and you made a great and I have by the way and you'll get the gist of this in the course of this conversation the movie is fantastic I haven't said it already it is emotionally resonant is the first Indiana Jones movie that has made me weep it is a soaring adventure and it works and I had a grin on my

face for two two hours and 20 minutes so congratulations thank you that was the point The point was really to, you know, there's a minefield of expectations that people have about beloved characters and worlds, and you're never going to please everybody. And you kind of have to have enough armor. I don't even think I have developed it enough to kind of deal with the people who somehow get outraged even before they've seen your movie. But the reality is that to me, it was making, you know, it's a difficult thing to describe, making a film that was emotionally honest, but at the same time not losing track that it is a screwball action picture. And, you know, Phoebe would often, would tell you about this. I often brought up with her, you know, the Preston Sturgis film, The Lady Eve,

and Barbara Stanwyk in that film in particular when I was thinking. and we were writing her character. And, you know, it's kind of this beautiful, charming rogue who has a heart of gold, although she's a completely nefarious and selfish character, at least when you meet her in the beginning of the picture. And that for me, that quality, not just of the Lady Eve in terms of Phoebe's character,

but in terms of wit, action, double crosses, crosses, turns, heart, when you get down to it, the Indiana Jones films, yes, they're action movies, but they're at their heart, they're also just love letters to Golden Age cinema. A thousand percent. One thing I think that, look, when you were announced, I was so hardened because, again, there's a very short list of filmmakers I would trust this with. And I think one of the reasons you were great for this, if I can analyze this for a second, is because we've had this conversation about franchise filmmaking and about, like, you're not one to like, and it speaks volumes

what you were saying before. I'm not going to just hit a release date just because I have to. Like, you're not interested in selling lunchboxes. You're interested in selling a story or telling a story. And one thing I think you really achieve in this, we talk a lot about fan service in years. And I want to hear from you like, was that a balance?

Was that something like, look, you want to make something in the vein. You want it to feel like an Indiana Jones movie. But like, you could have wear it a lot more in. You could have had Mads be like, it's Belock's sun. You could have had you know every it gets silly it gets silly at a certain point and it's the term fan service is uh makes it sound so uh dirty um it is checking a box yeah and um uh i am a fan of indiana jones

films i have no problem jumping into the world i mean i feel the same way about star wars movies and i certainly felt that way when i made logan you can make a different movie but also love what's come before you can make a different movie and also bring back elements that have existed before it's part even you know my favorite indiana jones film is raiders of the lost arc okay so um and i have other favorites but that's number one and not only but also because it's number one and it's where the world started but the filmmaking is the craft is so exquisite from the writing on upward in that movie you know in the first five minutes when indy runs into block it's not a new character he goes you or bolog history i know there's history there could have been a movie before

there could have been a movie between the two of them that happened before this movie yeah so it's kind of fan service for phantom movies when he meets karen allen for the first time she belts him that's their first moment together she she flattens him so uh well what's that based on the movie that happened before the movie so what's when you're working in the shoes and in the shadows of such great dramatists and filmmakers like i am on this project you're dealing with people who even do fan service to their own original movie to the movies that didn't exist meaning they create backstory you arrive in each scene in media res the characters know each other they're not all my name is belloc and i'm here they are they are people who have history and so i just followed

that form. In my case, there were movies that preceded me. So some of the people who march in and out are characters we know. One character we don't see, and I'm just curious because like in the last year, Hequan had an amazing year. Was there ever an iteration? Like, do you have regrets when you saw how amazing he was back on screen again? Like, oh, wait, he's got the chops now as an adult. Like, did you ever consider bringing short round back? I was blown away by his work in everything everywhere. And I, but that movie was shooting while we were made. making our movie. And I was looking for a kid, meaning I had written this concept that required indeed and Helena. And at the point, I was thinking of how we could introduce, you know,

Kay, it was, I didn't have a space for another adult to come in the movie and have anything that wouldn't be more than kind of the worst kind of cameos. So the plus, he was actually shooting. And, but the, I was looking for Kay at, 13 meaning i was looking to introduce what i felt like was a kind of staple of these films as family films and also um as as uh in terms of just having the energy of a young person in the picture a really young person like a child yeah do you okay so this task completed and hopefully you're in your exhaling and enjoying the victory lap as it were do you have like i don't know there's been so much talk obviously harrison's a thousand percent clear he's never playing indiana

Jones again. And seemingly no one else is ever playing Indiana Jones again. I think we all agree. We hope that's the case. That seems like the right call. Do you have interests or conversations about doing anything else in the world? I know there was the Ravenwood show that was being developed. Were you involved in that? Or is this kind of like? I looked at what they were developing for that show. But I think it was it was purely speculative in terms of whether that show was going to happen. But it had nothing to do with Indiana Jones. It was the world. But it was not a, you know, I'm busy. I'm I'm only eight weeks out on a complete unknown, so I'm busy making a radically different movie right now.

And that's how I kind of have conducted my whole career and is always trying to vary things in size and scale. And I certainly don't want to be just, there's nothing wrong with it, but the kind of IP or sequelized world has is its own beast and it's not a place I want to live permanently. It's a place I like to visit and do something if I feel like I have something I can say that makes the movie stand on its own.

I have, and I've probably kissed off a lot of work just by saying this, but I have kind of no interest in being part of a universe. Obviously, every movie is a part of the larger world of its... But what I mean by that is that at the point, the film between its fade in and its fade out... I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the L.A. Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep,

or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. fan favorites musts season in case you missed them we're talking parasite the home alone from grease to the dark night so if you love movies like we do come along on our cinematic adventure listen to unspooled wherever you get your podcast and don't forget to hit the follow button hey michael hey tom well big news to share it right yes huge monumental earth shaking heartbeat sound effect big reach is back that's right after a brief snack nap we're coming back we're picking snacks

We're eating snacks. We're raiding snacks. Like the snackologist we were born to be. Mates is back. Mike and Tom, eat snacks. Wherever you get your podcast. Unless you get them from a snack machine, in which case, call us. It becomes the curtain up and curtain down becomes less significant than how it's handing off to another enterprise to follow.

Means that I'm, again, without a compass as our conversation. opened I don't know how to do that that just feels like I'm making the world's most expensive TV show an episode of the world's most expensive TV show and one episode comes out every year and a half and I get lost in that process because I don't know how to tell the story and bring it in for a landing We talked a lot when Logan came out, and that was such an exceptional goodbye to that character. Is there any part of you, look, we're excited. It'll be fun to see Hugh, obviously, back in Deadpool, in that context, a much different kind of a movie.

At the same time, is part of you like, wait, we had the perfect send-off, and this lessens the impact a tad for what Logan delivered at the end? Well, yes and no. I mean, there's a part of me that felt. we stick the landing but we did it the great thing about movies is again i'm just not that meta i'm much you know maybe there's a good reason harrison and i get along so well maybe i'm just really practical and just i'm a very old man hiding in in a slightly younger man's body but the the but the reality is i just we did end logan well yeah and it did have its impact and continues to and i'm not really sure that anything diminishes it or takes it away um uh in any real way um that that the thing

if it if it works it works and and it's not like the new movie hugh and ryan are working on takes place after logan so he doesn't uh so um in a sense they're just making a prequel if you will And totally, you know, because I've talked with them about this, I even was heavily talking with about him a few years ago, you know, I'm imagining it's going to be some kind of midnight run or 48 hours with these two guys just on the run. It sounds amazing. Yeah. Yes. And it sounds fun as hell. And I don't think, so because I don't think in universes, I just think in movies, I think we did it, you know.

And there's plenty of wonderful films that have had sequels that were different or not quite the same. And if things don't work, they vanish. And if they work, that's awesome. So, you know. Right. So having said that about kind of, you know, not thinking in terms of universes, you were, though, developing the X-23 or a film for a time. Did you ever have a script for that? Like, how far did that go?

I never had a script. I started, I started working on a story. and but I don't think of that as a universe. I just loved the character and I thought Daphne is such an incredibly dazzling actress. I mean, I thought, you know, you talk about gambles on movies, the amount of weight we put on an 11-year-old girl in that movie. I mean, it's happened, Paper Moon with Tatum O'Neill or The Exorcist.

There's movies where the child performance just shocks every one. one in its depth. But the, um, she was so miraculous in that movie and fierce. And, and I think people responded on so many levels to it. You know, even people with just difficult children, um, uh, recognized the, recognized Logan's plight trying to kind of, uh, deal with her. And the, um, but I was really curious about how that would work, but it happened at exactly the moment, um, did, um, did. Um, did, um, Disney bought Fox and... Casualty of the merger, yeah. Yeah, and then interestingly, at that point,

there was no interest in continuing any semblance of what had been the Fox Marvel universe. But my how things change and suddenly... Mutants are hot again, yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked for Logan Noir. Are we going to see Dylan in black and white or color? Have you considered any black and white films in your filmography since? since the only nervousness i'd have about making the dillon movie i'd love to make one the dillon

in black and white is that i just feel like we'll just be trying to look like you know don't look don't look now or but don't look back don't look back yeah of course yeah don't look now is in color but also um but um but it's it's an interesting question because it's you know one of the big tricks and problems that is maybe on a 45 minute show is worth talking about but one of the challenges for filmmakers making black and white films is they really they let you do it as an option but the reason studios resist it as at least this is what i encountered last time i kind of was thinking about this on a movie the reason they resist it or don't even resist it refuse it isn't just that they don't think audiences will embrace a black and white film but that they actually have output

output deals around the world with with streamers or cable channels that make color a requirement of the release meaning that if you make a black and white film for a certain studio it means that it will not air they cannot it falls out of certain output deals it may not be interesting to anyone but business people but it's it creates this huge financial crisis beyond the executive studio executive assumption that people don't like black and white yeah i've heard that even like applying to it international like it can't go overseas it had the expectation yeah so it's it's also yes so so whenever the international community gets high and mighty about thinking they're only supporting great movies with someone should remind them that they keep any black and white films

even i think alexander pain had to shoot nebraska they had to shoot it in color and make black and white because of, I think, either some Asian release where they were required to deliver a color film. Let's hit upon the Dylan movie, just because you are. I'm sure that's like occupying 80% of your brain even now. It's got all my favorite people, man. I know this one's been brewing for a while. Timmy Chalame, I caught up with Elle Fanning recently. She was very excited.

You guys almost worked together on the Patty Hurst movie. I know. Benedict is going to be your Pete Seeger, inspired casting. Congratulations on that. I guess my first question is Dylan involved? Like have you do you want his participation? Have you talked to Dylan? Has Timmy interacted with Dylan? I've spent I've spent several wonderfully charming days in his company just one-on-one talking to him. Yes. And I have I have a script that's

personally annotated by him and treasured by me and and he's a wonder, you know, he loves movies, you know. And so my one of my, you know, When I first, the first time I sat down with Bob, you know, one of the first things he said to me was, I love Copeland, man. A man after my own heart. You know how much I love that one. Oh, my God. You know. Good taste. But, no, this is, and by the way, it's not really a Bob Dylan biopic. What's interesting and always was interesting about it to me. And I think interesting, the reason Bob's been so supportive of us making it is it's about, as in all cases, I think,

think the best true life movies are never a cradle to grave, but they're about a very specific moment in someone's life. And in this case, it's kind of, I don't know that I'd, it might be presumptuous to call it Altman-esque, but it's a kind of ensemble piece about this moment in time in the early 60s in New York and this 17-year-old kid with $16 in his pocket who hitchhikes his way to New York to meet Woody Guthrie, who is being kept in a hospital. and is dying of a nerve disease and sings Woody a song that he wrote for him and befriends Pete Seeger, who's like a son to Woody, and Pete sets him up with gigs and local clubs, and there you meet Joan Baez and all these other people who are part of this world. And this, this, this wanderer who

comes in from Minnesota with a fresh name and a fresh outlook on life becomes a star assigned to the biggest record company in the world in a year and three years later has record sales rivaling the Beatles and the upheaval in what was the folk community and what they felt was proper folk and illicit folk or all has tremendous relevance even now because of the way we're also tribalized and we make rules about what what our music should be or what the rules are of how we speak or how we express ourselves and Bob from the beginning has been someone who is always pressing against those boundaries and or not even recognizing them I think that's one of the most beautiful things I saw and felt

upon meeting him is he still puzzled while they were so angry after Newport in 1965 yeah you know for him I think it's really clear that that that that that you know he loved buddy holly he loved little richard he loved you know he listened to rock and roll he didn't come to new york to become a folk sensation he just wanted to make music and folk is what happened and what was happening at that moment but his dream of playing in a band you know he saw buddy holly and the crickets you know a couple months before they died uh and his dream of being in a band in a rock band was the primal dream of his life And so it wasn't like he was rejecting anything as much as just trying to evolve.

And it's such an interesting explosion of drama in this community in that moment in 1965 when he went electric. And the way he was viewed as a kind of Judas or a betraying angel to the movement that he had lifted into stardom. We know Tim. world and timmy is gonna um timmy is working his ass off right as we speak and so we know he's got the acting chops how's uh how's the singing is he pre-recorded the songs or is singing live we've been in rehearsals musical rehearsals and we lay we lay things down just to learn from them but the the the music is incredible and he's incredible um i um i couldn't have more confidence in him and in all the others joining in.

And I think, you know, not unlike making an Indiana Jones movie, the expectations are high. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bagonia.

Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar. In The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLewis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Hi, I'm Brandi Pissanti.

For the last 15 years, I've starred in one of the most successful reality shows of all time. Storage Wars. On my no show, The Real Reality, my guest and I will reveal the real story of what it's like navigating fame and notoriety. We will explore their unique story, what really happened on and off camera, how becoming famous is truly impacted their lives and what their vision is for their future. This is the real reality. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcast. But so is the camaraderie and the love among us. We've all been essentially working on this movie for the last three years.

So there's a lot, there's been a lot of preparation. You know, when COVID took us offline, no one stopped, writing, rehearsing, Timmy playing guitar and working all the, you know, probably took it with him through every Dune and probably was playing guitar as he was riding a worm. What's that music in the Dune trailer? Oh, Dylan. Yeah. Okay, it's official.

We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances, it can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News. And every morning, my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News, because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming.

Another, what I would imagine will be a long gestation period. We'll talk about this for years, but you're just in the infancy, presumably, of the Star Wars project. But again, the prospect of you, Star Wars, I'm excited, sir. You were more than dabbling. You were down a road at one point, correct me if I'm wrong, on a Boba Fett film, yes? Like, did that, did that, is that anything like what Mandalorian or Book of Boba Fett became? Or was it a totally different kind of kettle of fish? Well, at the point I was doing it, I was probably scaring the shit out of everyone,

but I was probably making much more of a borderline rated R kind of spaghetti Western single planet, the spaghetti Western. There probably would, the world would never be able to embrace baby Yoda if I had made that. So the really belong in the world I was kind of envisioning. But it kind of just in a moment of kind of corporate re-alignment after whatever happened with the Han Solo movie, they just suddenly decided they weren't making pictures like that. And I think the opportunities in streaming presented themselves. You've made my heartbreak a little bit just hearing about that, Jim. Yeah, it was a beautiful period. I was just listening to Ennio Morricone all day, all night.

and typing away, but the, but the, the, I'm not sure whatever would have happened. I'm not sure that it was in anyone's plans what I, what I was thinking about. But now, okay, and again, I know we can't get into detail because it's a long road, but what you're planning is prior to everything we've ever seen in the Star Wars universe. So that gives you free reign, which again. Woo! Yes. The, that is, that is not even, you know, when I talk to some, some of the, you know, the Star Wars clerics who keep track of all these timelines.

I was like, so when would this have happened? And they were like 25,000 years before episode one. And I was like, oh, I was looking for some distance, but that's distance. If we have to go back that far, we'll do it. If that gives me what I need. I'll do it. I might find Charlton Heston in an abandoned subway station

with some apes, but I'll do it. The, but the reality for me was, was that that feeling of space, pun not intended, but apropos, was something that I felt was really important, not to get away from, again, fan service, or the intricacies of what George had set up and dreamed of, but to just have the space to tell a story and not be instantly encumbered with the bases you have to hit. Which, honestly, there's no way to explain it to folks other than to say it's like that game we played as kids' twister. At a certain point, you're in a tangle because you just are trying to kind of find a way to tell a story in so many. um constraints that that you can't i i would imagine you interacted a correct if i'm wrong did you

interact with george on on the indie film and have you talked to him at all about your what you're planning for star i have not i have not had a chance to talk to him at all about what i'm thinking on this he had he was involved and read the script and was and had and was a ford ferrari fan i'm told and and um but i um it'd be very interesting to talk to him I mean, I'm a little, I'm very protective of myself in the sense of like even describing meeting Bob Dylan in relation to Dylan film. I like to have my shit together before I get into those kinds of situations because there's every good idea skates at the very edge of being precipitously awful so that the, and every safe idea never gets toward that edge. So the trick is always to develop your idea enough that your compatriots and consultants and mentors can understand how you're avoiding going over the edge, not just daring it.

And so obviously, as a writer, I am on strike right now. So those solutions and that process is not going to happen right now. We do know, last thing on Star Wars, we do know that this is about basically the dawn of the force, the discovery of the force. I mean, am I going to hear the word Jedi or midi-chlorian in your movie? I don't want to make any guarantees one way or another, but it would be before Jedi in the, meaning you might be experiencing something that might become Jedi.

They, despite the fact other people make movies other ways, I don't tend to think people brand themselves before they've actually found themselves so the you don't come up a name a name for your organization because let's call it the force what i just experienced and then well and then let's put this big thing on our chest and uh right i tend to think that the branding tends to happen later fair enough um and yet one more project i do want to mention um again i expect very early days but you're a swamp thing fan i take it does that go way back what's the what's the way back and basically Basically, the second I heard that DC was going through some leadership convulsion and James was taking over, I just saw it as an opportunity to throw my hat down in the most, I mean, I just called them.

And I said, in all the stuff you're doing, if the idea of me making a kind of gothic horror film origin story of Swamp Thing fits in, tell me. And I go, I'm not, and I, you know, it's no different speech than anyone else gets with me. I'm not really, I don't have any agenda for a universe. I'm not building towards someone joining in some future, have at it. But I just be interested in telling, I've always been interested in doing a version of Frankenstein, basically. And yet I feel like, you know, it's. alive has been done enough so that um but swamp thing always occurred to me as kind of this wonderful uh version of a kind of Frankenstein story um much in the way you know one of my favorite

pop films of of growing up robocop the original one was is such you know this this guy who just wakes up and he's been turned into he finds he's become this kind of machine also something that i was fascinated with Logan, obviously, but the, but to me, the idea of making kind of almost a kind of noir mystery horror film about a guy who wakes up and he's this thing. And he's, there's an amnesiac quality of like, how did I get here and who did this to me? And so I'm envisioning kind of a horror noir film following a creature that can't be seen trying to piece together from fragments of memory what happened and who did it um and i can see why james gun said yes that's that's intriguing and none of this runs and none of this runs counter obviously to the lenween and

and Bernie writes and all the great work that went on um which was which i mean it's not like i i'm just framing it up in a new movie context but that's all they were exploring in these comics and and so beautifully i i like it's presumptuous to talk rating before you even written a script but does the nature of that kind of material necessitate in your mind potentially and our rating has that even come up in conversation hasn't come up in conversations and i think that you know my favorite thing about we probably talked about this before but my favorite thing about rated r isn't that i can say fuck or that we could show naked people or more blood, which all obviously happens, can happen with that rating. But then when you make

a rated R movie, the entire marketing apparatus of a studio understands that they cannot dream on this particular picture of action figures, lunch boxes, and special tie-ins to get children to this movie. And it changes the way the script is perceived, meaning that, you know, like to use an example in Logan, pretty early on in the picture, there's a, I think it's almost an eight-minute scene between Patrick Stewart and Hugh Jackman inside that, uh, that tip, uh, water tower that, you can't do an eight-minute scene between two men over, uh, two men over 40, uh, entirely dialogue, one of them in a wheelchair, talking about their past in a movie that's designed for,

Yeah, that action figure set doesn't sell a lot. No, it's not a, it doesn't seem, your studio is going to go, I don't know, fast X seems like it's speaking more my language. But the, the reality is the rating suddenly creates tremendous space. Yep. Even if you're not using the rating for what it's designed for, it creates a kind of understanding of who this movie is for. And that's really a real advantage. I'm going to let you go, but just so you know, Russell Crow did the podcast recently, he's still ready to explore that character one more time from 310 to Yuma.

I love it. I love it. I actually had a whole idea that he, I had this whole idea that he was going to circle back to their house. And kind of, I had an idea of a scene where Logan Lerman wakes up and he hears something. And he comes out to the front porch and someone's kind of cut some fire. or something and he sees, you know, Russell riding off like that, that he has this, because I always thought Russell was pretty attracted to Christian's wife in that picture. And he, Gretchen, how could you not be?

But the, but I love Russell and I love to hear it. But no more universe building. Yeah, I got you. Make your Dylan movie. Okay. Congratulations, man. Look, we didn't even get to compliment one of my favorites of yours. Let's have a longer comfort.

Maybe one of those anniversaries. I'd love to dig deep into the history of that one. Congratulations, though. Look, the bar of difficulty was insane on this, and you really delivered. It's so satisfying and a great, a truly great send-off to one of the best characters of all time.

It's also a great personal experience, I have to say. There's that old Adage, don't meet your heroes, but this experience proved it wrong. I had such a great time with everyone involved. You know, Stephen has been such a wonderful, supportive, paternal figure to be. me making this movie. And John Williams is one of the most inspiring humans I've ever met in my life. Just the kindest, most wonderful Queens jazz player who somehow got the chance to become

maestro to the world and through tremendous talent. And it just also remains one of the most childlike and charmed and artistic people I've ever met. So it's been just a joy. Amazing. Bonus points for that. Congrats again, man. I'll see you on the next. Excellent one. Thanks, buddy. Be good. Have a good one. Bye. Yep, you too. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused.

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