Happy Sad Confused - James Wan

Episode Date: December 12, 2018

James Wan is no stranger to big challenges but his latest film, "Aquaman" may be his biggest yet. The result is an ambitious blend of sci-fi/fantasy, a classic superhero origin story, plus a healthy does of irreverent humor. Oh, it's also a crazy ginormous adventure. Not many filmmakers would rise to this challenge but Wan, the director of "Saw", "The Conjuring", and "The Fate of the Furious" is more than up to the task.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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for the very first time fear I have to make them afraid he's got a motorcycle get after him or have you shot you mean blow up the building from this moment on

none of you are safe new episodes every Wednesday wherever you get your Podcasts. Today on Happy, Say, Confused, Director James Wong, from Saw and the Conjuring to Fast 7 and now, Aquaman. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harrow. It's welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused.

It's another one of those great filmmakers I love welcoming to the show today. And a first time Happy Sad Confused guest, so thrilled to have. the very talented James Wan on this episode of Happy Sick and Fused. He's got a huge hunkin movie coming out in about a week. It is Aquaman. You will not be able to get away from it. It is the latest entry in the DC universe starring none other than Jason Mamoa and Amber Heard and Willam Defoe and Patrick Wilson and Nicole Kidman and James Wan at the helm.

Quite an opportunity for James, but he's earned it. And if you look at his resume, this guy has. has made a lot of money for some studios, and he's entertained many, many audience members thanks to films like Saw, Insidious, The Conjuring, and Fast Seven. And now he finally gets to direct his own superhero film. He's a guy who loves superheroes, who loves comic books, and has been eyeing this for a while, and finally got a pretty cool opportunity in Aquaman. And he'll explain why, but to kind of tease it out a little bit, he was excited to

kind of create his own world to do the kind of star wars war of the rings thing which a property like aquaman can afford a director to world build uh and he did a really great job i have to say um i was very impressed by the filmmaking uh behind this one it is audacious filmmaking it is bold filmmaking it is not a lazy comic book movie it is an ambitious one uh and i think i know from like a lot of fellow you know press people the the early word on it is very good people enjoy it i enjoy it i enjoyed it. It has a good sense of humor, cool action. I think it's going to do well. I think you guys are going to enjoy it. And I think you're also going to enjoy this conversation. I think, you know, you guys know how much I love geeking out with filmmakers and James is certainly

just a big old geek like myself and loves talking movies and has the same reference points and really just enjoy talking about comic book movies and filmmakers that have influenced him and his path is a very interesting path. Malaysian-born, raised in Australia, and then came up through kind of the festivals. Like, Saw was a festival movie. It debuted at Sundance, and it changed the course of his life. And suddenly he was the big horror guy.

And then it took him years to get over that and do stuff that was not horror. And then came something like The Conjuring, which changed him, even though it was horror, it was a different kind of horror. And then came Fast 7, which sadly was probably one the more difficult productions that will ever happen, thanks to the very sad and untimely death of Paul Walker in the middle of the production. James is very open and heartfelt in talking about sort of the

difficulties of that production and how it tested him. And then, of course, coming out the other side to direct a film like Aquaman, which I know he's very proud of. And this is just a good kind of all-encompassing conversation with, as I said, a died-in-the-wall lover of film who has been just pushing himself in different genres in a very interesting way. And he's also just a great spirit. You'll sense that infectious enthusiasm from him right from the start. So I know you guys are going to enjoy this conversation. Director James Wan on this episode of Happy Say I Confused.

Remember to review, rate and subscribe to Happy Say I Confused. Let other friends, family, foes, any other F word you can think of, know about this show, spread the good word. And in the meanwhile, enjoy this chat with James Wan. I'm very pleased to be welcomed by Mr. James Wan in my New York office. Thanks for stopping by, man. Thanks for having me in here. This is a really cool office. Thanks, buddy.

Yeah, so you're at the end of the New York leg of this insane. It's like you're like a rock star on tour, like traveling the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. That's good way to sum it up. Are you fueled a little bit by the good energy at every pit stop? Because, as you well know, there are good vibes around this movie. People are really receiving it well. Yeah, people seem to be enjoying it.

And, you know, I mean, I kind of, the movie hasn't come out yet. So I take it in strides and I try to, you know, take everything, you know, with a grain of salt and we'll see what happens. But so far, I think it's, you know, people are digging it. Yeah, well, I'll add my voice to the chorus. I was, I greatly enjoyed it. It's a wild ride. It's such a, I mean, we'll talk all about this, but it's so audacious, it's big, it's funny, it's got a lot of good adjectives I can assign to this one, so congratulations, you should feel good.

Thank you. So let's go back a little bit first, because I'm curious, I mean, knowing what I do about you a little bit, I have a feeling doing a comic book movie like this was probably something potentially on the bucket list at some point. Yeah, no, definitely, you know, speaking of bucket list, that this movie actually checked off a little. lot of bucket list. What are the other items? Well, I, you know, definitely, you know, to be able to sort of tackle a comic book movie was, you know, it was a dream, I'm sure. I've wanted to make a comic movie for the longest part, so definitely this film allowed me

to do that, and to do it with a really interesting character as well, one that's never really been done on the big screen before, or anything, or the small screen for that matter. And the other thing this movie allowed me to do is a world creation film. I really, really wanted to, for the longest part, make a world creation film, something that I, a movie that I get to design from the ground up, so to speak, you know, from scratch. And again, this project allowed me to do that and allow me to kind of go back and visit my love for action films. And so it actually ticked off a lot of boxes. I'm curious growing up, because we're roughly the same age.

I'm curious for you, like, what were the Seminole, specifically, like, comic. Wait, yeah, 29? Wow, that's amazing. Week 16, both of us. We're wonderkins. Exactly. They were the interns, direct movies, and do podcasts. It's so cool. Yeah, right?

And not age. I love that. Hypothetically, if we were a little bit older, we might have come of age of the Tim Burton Batman's. That's right. What were the big ones for you growing up? Growing up, you mean in terms of comic book movies? Yeah, let's go specific on that first.

Definitely, you know, I know a lot of people kind of grew up. with Superman being their first sort of superhero ones. And I think maybe Superman was my first one as well, the Christopher Reeves one. But I think the one that kind of made the biggest impact on me is Tim Burton's Batman, Batman 89, as I call it. And so that's the one, to me at least, I feel like, is what sort of is the first movie to really give us a modern-day version

on what a comic book movie would and could look like. And so that's definitely one that I hold it up there as one of the great comic book films. Well, it makes sense given what you were just talking about. Like, I love the Donner Superman, who does them, of course they're great. But when I think of, I think you were just talking about world building. Right, that's right. Because Donor, kind of lives in our world.

It's not like a stylized world. Right, yeah. But Burden in every film, including that one, you're in Crazy Tim Burton's, mind. Tim Burton's mind, that's right. What a great place to be. We'd and wonderful.

And yeah, and exactly, and that's what I love about that film is, you know, you follow this larger than live character, Batman, but then, you know, you sort of, you're also inside, you know, the sort of heightened sort of wall of Tim Burton as well, and that's what, you know, I'm a big Tim Burton fan. You know, he's definitely one of the filmmakers that I grew up idolizing, you know, he's up there with the likes of Spielberg and Cameron and Lucas. And so, you know, I'm definitely a child of the 80s and 90s, that's for sure. Is there a filmmaker that you would kill to kind of just eavesdrop on their set?

Just like, if you had oodles of time, you're like, I could just sit and you can go specific on a specific film. It would have been cool to be on this set or just a filmmaker. I guess my different filmmakers for different things. You know, obviously, it would be amazing to see, you know, this kind of happened now, but it would have been amazing to see how someone like Alfred Hitchcock would have directed his film on set and you know you read about all the cheekiness

that he got up to be amazing to be like a fly in the wall and see the kind of stuff that he used to get up to yeah and you know and you know and it would have been amazing to see Stephen on the set of Raiders of the Lost Ark and yeah many other directors I would have loved to have seen what Dario Gento did on Deep Red and so on and so on

it's okay so growing up, and you came of age in Australia, correct me if I'm wrong, right? Yes. Okay, so what were, how early on did you get serious about this potential endeavor, this potential life? You know, like most people, you know, film geeks out there, I grew up with movies. I grew up, you know, with movies, been a big part of my youth at a young age. I made a big impact. I think the first movie I can remember seeing in theaters, in theater was Snow White and the Seven Dwarve. And then the next movie...

Wait, are you that old when it originally came out? You're like at 80? No, I'm kidding. They re-released that all the time. Yeah, exactly. I think it was a re-release. I just want to be clear. He's older than 16, but not that much older.

I'm pretty sure it was a re-release. And then the next movie I remember seeing in theater is Potegeist. And I think I saw that one at the age of seven. And of course, Porteis is a few. film that left a big impression on me, make me terrified of clowns and dolls. Yeah, so we've reaped the benefits of your trauma from Poltergeis. That's right. That's right. Thanks to Polter guys. Thanks, Stevensfieldberg. You know, I go into make all these movies about creepy dolls. That's right. And so, yeah, so, you know, I grew up with, you know, with movies

and stuff like that and all kinds of movies as well. And, you know, early in my life, I was still in Malaysia. And so I kind of grew up with, you know, sort of Asian citizens. cinema as well. You know, filmmakers such as Sue Hark and John Wu and stuff like that. And then, you know, then I, my family moved to Australia and then, and then it was about Hollywood films. Were you, were you reading a lot of comics? Is it good, too? Probably, I would say that I was more a film geek than I was a comic geek. It wasn't until I was in my teenage years that I started discovering comic book in a big way, in a big way. and it was during the period

when all the great sort of writers and artists move away from the two big houses which at the time were Marvel in D.C. to go play in the Image. Of course, McFarlane, yeah, yeah. McFarlane, Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld and those guys. And so, yeah, so I grew up more with Sporn than the other classic ones, Sporn, Youngblood,

wild cats, savage dragon, And those were the ones I grew up with. Were you ever, I'm curious, like, because they've been trying, they're going to finally do another Spawn version now for the big screen. Have you ever been, talked to any of those guys about any of those films, film versions? I haven't really.

I mean, I did tell Jim Lee that I'm a big fan of his, naturally. And that was really cool to meet Jim, you know, growing up, loving the stuff that he had done. And so I got the chance to tell him, you know, that I love the stuff he did. And that was basic. That wasn't pretty much yet. So how far back can you think in terms of the first time you were,

have you built a bit up for comic book movies for many years? Like, once the first, do you remember the first pitch you made for a comic book film? I'm trying to think. I've, I think it was round about Fuss and Fear Seven that, you know, that people kind of like sort of thinking of me for potential comic book properties. You had kind of broken out of that box thanks to both conjuring and Fast Seven. and people were starting to see that you could Yeah, that I can, that's what I can do

I make out of the films outside of the horror and that I can kind of tackle on, take on bigger projects. And so, you know, I, yeah, I remember very early, you know, years back, a couple of years back, I think it was I'm right after conjuring one that I went in and I, you know, I,

I went in to a particular student, and told them that, hey, I'm a big fan of Blade, would you guys be interested in a rebooting Blade? And so that was one. Obviously, nothing came out of that. But that was my sort of my first intro into looking at potential comic book properties to adapt. What was your take on doing a different blade? It was just, you know, just to kind of talk about it.

You know, I didn't necessarily have a, I did, yeah, I didn't have a full presentation. I did have an idea. I can't quite remember what it was. That's how far back it was. And I've done a lot since then, so I can't quite remember what I had thought of. But I did like it at the time. Dig it out.

They still haven't done it yet. Yeah, Wesley, I feel like still talks about it every other year. Like, I'm ready. Bring me back. Some of those original Blade films are pretty good. Obviously, Guillermo got his... Yeah, I mean, geez, I don't know. I think they were great films, especially that first one.

The first one was pretty great. The first scene is awesome. So groundbreaking for the, you know, I think it came out around the same time as the Matrix, right? It came up before the Matrix, and I just remember thinking how groundbreaking our Blade was. Yeah. Okay, so this one, so flash forward,

you get all this heat off of Fast 7, obviously already Warner Brothers, likes you very much because you've done pretty well for that studio. And so is it just like a general meeting? Is it kind of like, again, do you kind of say, like, hey, I know you're making a lot of these, I'm interested, or do they come to you? Because what I've heard you say is Flash and Aquaman camera.

Right. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much what it was. You know, I was already, you know, sort of in their world with The Conjuring films. And so, you know, so I knew that they were, you know, playing and, you know, doing their DC films. And so, being a comic book fan, I kind of put my hand, I was like, hey, you guys, if, you know, if you're interested, you know, I would be interested as well if we kind of want to try and do something together. It's awkward dating. Yeah, it was. So, what do you think? Do you want to go out? it was a little bit like that and yeah they did it they called me to come in they come into the DC and they you know we just had a very general

chat about it early on and that was when they sort of very very sort of in a very general kind of way very lightly sort of pitched me what I thought about the idea of either Aquaman or the Flash and your immediate response was I was like oh wow

those two haven't found directors yet because I haven't found directors for those two And you know, and, you know, I was, you know, I, I obviously, I was very familiar with, with those two properties. I didn't actually grow up reading either books, but, you know, but they're so iconic. And so, you know, it's hard to kind of not know who they are. They are. So in the end, it sounds like as cool as the Flash is, and I'm still excited to see that one comes to the big screen, especially with someone like Ezra playing that character. And Ezra is so great in that role. And I just think, I kind of

wait to see his standalone film. Totally. The appeal, again, of building something from the ground up. That's right. Yeah. And it's what makes it really, I mean, you know, we've seen Flash on the small screen. Right. You know, I love the, uh, the Jonathan Wesley's ship version. Yeah, John Wesley's Ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I remember that one. And I loved it. And, and so, you know, so the Flash has been done before on the big, on the small screen. And, and so I felt that Aquaman really is the one guy, really, who is as famous and as iconic as he is has never really been touched before and especially you know when this was going down three years ago when i so came on board um you know he hasn't appeared in justice league yet

or i'm just i'm trying to think of bv yeah the bvs a cameo if that had happened yet i can't quite remember necessarily but you know but never yeah he's never been sort of touched um to this degree before and so uh and then obviously the the chance to uh kind of built his whole world from scratch and to do this really sort of big underwater sort of world that we had never seen before that was definitely the biggest draw card. So when you start to, you sign on, Mamo is already in,

is there a script already in place? Like how much does the script that existed then? For my movie? They, I think they had been playing with different scripts already, I think, but they did not show me any of those. And so they didn't want to sort of affect me. me in any way or influence me in any way. They wanted me to come in and bring my own vision to this and, you know, and really do it my way and bring a sort of fresh take to it. And so that's what

I did. I was like, great. That's what I wanted to do. And I came in and I started sort of thinking about, you know, the story I wanted to tell. And I worked closely with Jeff Johns. I, you know, it was Jeff who really kind of brought me into the DC world. He, you know, he really wanted me to, you know play with this particular character and uh and um and so um so he gave me his books and so i i looked through the new 52 and then i i read all his stuff and i fell in love with it i love what he did i love the way he rebooted this character and the way he sort of like reintroduced the wool and the characters uh to a new audience and uh and i became a fan base of what he did and and so naturally uh when it came time to sort of work on the foundation of the

ripped, I use his books as The Leaping Off. I mean, it's interesting. Having seen the film, what really left to mind for me watching the movie was I wasn't thinking, I didn't compare it to comic book movies after I walked out of that theater. I was thinking of, you know, Avatar Flash Gordon, fantasy, sci-fi, as you say, this is a world-building thing mixed with a bit of like a family drama, which is not something that you're unfamiliar with either. I mean, Patrick Wilson was just saying to me, like, that's kind of his secret sauce.

Like, when you get past all the bells and whistles, that's what it is. He makes family dramas. That's really all he does. I mean, you know, oh, jokes aside, I look at The Conjuring films, and it really is kind of just a love story between this husband and wife who just so happens to deal in the world of the supernatural. And, you know, to me, the genre really doesn't matter. I think, you know, the most important thing is. creating characters that people care about and creating

sort of human emotion that an audience can kind of relate to and in the case of this movie because I'm taking the audience on such a kind of crazy ride into these sort of like visually striking world that we haven't kind of quite seen before and so the more outrageous the world gets the more

human the emotional sort of quality needs to be and so I think if you allow the audience to have something that they can relate to then you can take that there's really crazy fun ride because there is something in the film that grounds them and that is the human emotion. And I think one of the smarter things you guys did is cast somebody like Nicole Kidman

who can like make anything, no matter how outlandish I feel like, and root it in like a real emotion. That's right. It's pretty astounding because look, this is a crazy movie and it's some crazy stuff you have to say and do in these kinds of movies. But like you feel for this relationship right from the start. And that's really Nicole Kidman, I feel like. It was very important for me that in that short little prologue sequence, that

I'd the emotional foundation for the whole film. And only someone, you know, someone like a Nicole Kidman can come in and just nail it. And that's what makes us so great. That's why she's always freaking winning Oscars and nominations, right? Because she's so amazing what she does. And so, yeah, so, you know, I knew that I had a small window in that opening. sequence to kind of like lay the emotional groundwork. I mean, not too dissimilar to what Up did. And I kind of looked at Up as a point of reference.

Oh, I always see that. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, right. And so you have like this short little five minute sort of prolog moment and you have to lay everything down in that moment. And I feel like you got to make sure you get that right because if you don't get that right, you know, it could unravel the rest of your movie. And so that was very important for me. the relationship between mom and dad, played by Nicole and Tamura Morrison. And so, you know, the love between those two from very different worlds

is what ultimately gave us Arthur Carey. I've heard you mentioned before, and this, again, makes sense to me considering the kind of audacity on screen, Fury Road referenced, which... Yes. I mean, I've talked to many filmmakers in here, for me, for I think any filmmaker I admire,

like that's like the movie of the last, like, 10, 20 years. like that's filmmaking on another level what he did in that film that's right yeah and the fact that um you know he you know george has said this is my world and i'm going to go for it right i'm going to go for it and these are the things i'm going to do and yeah it's outrageous and it's out there and it's crazy but it's not in my world it's not crazy in my world and so uh so i kind of use that sort of as a sort of somewhat of a kind of philosophical template yeah in in helping me to sort of dive into the world of Aquaman and saying this is my world that I'm making

and the concept of a drumming octopus isn't crazy at all. By the rules of my world. By the rules of my world, that's not crazy. That's right. It's a weekend. At a family concert. And so that was

really the philosophy I had going to this film is to make it as complete as possible so that it is uniquely its own wool. You shot all of this back in Australia? In Australia, yes. I have a feeling that's probably an advantage in a situation like this.

Because I remember even, again, I talked to Patrick Wilson a couple months back, and he was saying like, it was kind of a nice escape. To be away from Hollywood, to be away from the studio. That's kind of true. I mean, I'm sure some executives came and paid you a visit, but maybe less so than if you had been shooting in Burbank or something, right? I mean, that's usually the case when you're filming in Australia because it's, you know, on the other side of the globe.

And it's kind of great. is, you know, the fact that the distance, can I keep people away from it? Yeah. You know, it's cool. Listen, going to this movie from, you know, from day one, I had a very strong vision for this film. And the movie I pitch is ultimately the movie I made and the movie I deliver it. So, you know, it wasn't like I pitched them one movie and then I went down to Australia and I made a different movie. Do you know what I mean?

And so I stuck to my gun and I gave them what I said I was going to give them. And that made it, you know, easy in that respect. And timeline-wise, I'm trying to remember this. Because, like, you know, obviously Justice League had its production, you know, issues, et cetera. And reception was not what the studio wanted, clearly. Like, where were you in production when Justice League came out or? I guess my question is. I think Justice League was still shooting when I was shooting.

Got it. That being said... I think I was towards the talent of their photography because I remember Jason Mamoa leaving my set to go do the additional photography in London. So again, like, it sounds like you were able to make the movie you wanted from the start. It's not like suddenly you had to change the course

thanks to whatever happened with Justice League. Right. No, I didn't have to do that and I tell you why. Because, you know, from day one, I wanted my story to be a standalone story and I think that was probably the smartest thing that I kind of did with this is to not be beholden to another movie

because that would have been terrifying if they switch up certain things and then as you naturally tend to do with filmmaking, you know, like I did that on conjuring too as well you know, I switch things out and you know because sometimes in post-production during the editing process you go oh you know what I thought it was cool to go down this path

but I should have done tweak it like this instead And so it's just, you know, the organic process of discovery and filmmaking and stuff like that happens, you know, on all films. But luckily, I think the story that I wanted to tell was very different. And, you know, and my heroes go down a path, go on a journey that had, you know, very little to do with any of the other characters in the cinematic universe of D.C. Was there any concern that, like, there would be a bad taste left from, for some fans coming off of Justice League going into this one, where, like, you kind of have to, like, start from scratch and reassure them. I know Justice League had it to the tractors, but trust me, we're doing our own thing here. You know, I can't really control that kind of stuff. You know, I just try not to, you know, let the noise distract me too much.

And there's a lot of noise out there, you know, good and bad. And so, you know, there's only so much you can do as a filmmaker. You make the film you want to make, and, you know, and you hope people see that the film that you've made, you know, is from a place of passion and from a place of love. And that's really, that was really the main thing for me, you know, coming into this particular project, I really fell in love with Aquaman and with this character and the world. And so I really wanted to be respectful to the fans out there. And so, you know, I made a movie that I think is very, very.

much, you know, how an Aquaman movie should be. Right. I'm curious, like, do you still have a relationship with Zach who obviously cast these roles initially? Like, has he seen, has Zach Snyder seen Yeah, yeah, Zach saw my director's cut and, you know, and he gave me his blessing, right? And so that was really cool. Yeah. Yeah, and it's something like this, can you test screen a film of this size and this much attention? Like, do you show this to filmmakers, friends? What was helpful in that process for you. I actually wanted to show the movie more, believe it or not, to a general public. You know, because then that's when you get, you know, I would imagine you get the most sort of truthful sort of, you know, sort of opinions and ideas and stuff like that and thoughts.

But this is a hard film to test screen just because like every single fucking shot in this film is a fucking blue screen. Jeez, just about. And I remember, I just interject quickly because I remember I was at CinemaCon, I think, when you were there. And I could, and I saw, I talked to you on the carpet and I saw you in the presentation and it was palpable how it was frankly, I think it was killing you that you had to show that footage. God, I just did not want to show it so early on. And even all the way up until like two months before we had to finish the movie, you know, like what happens is, you know, you work on your visual effect shots and you keep working it. And for me, I keep tweaking it because I'm so pedantic. And I just kept

tweaking it, tweaking it. And I literally kept working on every single shot until literally everyone says, you know, until the studio, the producers and everyone says, uh, okay, now, you have to put the pen down, you know, like no more you guys are, the test is done, you have to put your pen down and hand your, you know, your paper in. And that was really my approach. And I just keep tweaking it up until the very last minute that I couldn't tweak it anymore because the print has to go off to international, has to go up to China because China, China is getting played, you know, getting released a lot earlier. Right. And so, you know, and so it was really hard of a film to show people at a very early stage, you know, with my horror films, when I

finished my director's cut, you know, you pretty much know what the movie's gonna be. And with this film, you know, when I finish my director's cut, you know, everything is just like, you know, like the world that we put in was just pretty much pre-vis still. And it was just really crude and rudimentary. And so it's a hard one for, you know, for people to sort of watch and kind of, you know, kind of know what they're watching. Right. And so when we do the test screening process, the thing that I try to sort of try and kind of read between the lines is whether or not the character element works.

So I know I don't need fancy effects to make those human elements work and luckily, you know, from what I got from all the test screenings is the human elements work. Yeah, and you're just hoping they're not distracted by like that big green tennis ball or whatever. Exactly, you know, like there are moments in it where they laugh but you know it's because they're laughing at, you know,

just, you know, silly behind the scene stuff. Right. I was talking to Mamoa about that iconic costume that I know it was important to you to get into this film, which it sounds like he had some trepidation. He probably was not alone, like, because that's like on paper, some things look great. Right. On the silver screen, not necessarily everything translates. Right. True.

Was that a big debate, or was it sort of like a non-starter? Like, if we're going to do Acoma, man, I have to portray that iconic costume. To me, it was a non-starter. I had to make that costume work. So, you know, like, one way or another, we're going to make that costume work and it has got to look amazing for the screen. And so, you know, we worked on it. We literally worked on it like all through the post, sorry, pre-production process and all the way through production as well. You know, because we started shooting the movie, kind of, you know, pretty much in order.

And so I didn't necessarily need the costume that early on during production of photography. And so we had time to just keep tweaking it, keep tweaking it. You know, is it a rubber suit or is it a chain mail suit? How does it look? And what's the best way to go about it? And creating different versions of it so that, you know, the actors and the stunt guys can kind of wear it and still be able to perform the action stuff. Have you left anything on the table for the sequel? Is this the kind of thing where you go into this and you put like every great Aquaman idea into the film?

Or in the back of your mind, you're like, here are five ideas I'd like to keep around. Listen, the way I see this is, I might only get one chance to do this, so I'm going to go for broke. So you don't have your AQUALAD script already written? No, I mean, here's the thing. I just wanted to make sure that this particular movie worked. I hate, I don't think about sequels necessarily. At least, at the very least, I don't want to talk about it. I don't like talking about it because this first one hasn't even come out yet.

So let's see. Let's get this one out there, and then let's see what the audience is. out there things. You did recently, I'm curious, we were talking about Batman before, and this, of course, perks up anybody's ears when they hear that anybody had a pitch for Batman. What was, what's the horror James Wan Batman? Was that a real thing? Like, is that something you pitched the studio? Uh, you know, it was kind of real for like, you know, two seconds. Um, it wasn't, uh, something that I was necessarily going to, you know, I think ultimately pursue because I, you know, I, I, I didn't pursue it just because I felt like, you know,

there's been a lot of, um, Batman stories. And, uh, and, which is great, you know, like I'm a big fan of the Batman war and the Batman character. And I think, um, you know, they're great filmmakers that are going to come in and do great things with this character. Um, I just ultimately decided that, you know, it's, um, it's, um, it's probably not for me. And, um, so is there, though, and unexplored? Because I know Matt Reeves is kind of, I mean, I'm so excited. that Matt Reeves is doing. Right. My God, that guy's ingenious.

And he's kind of what he's said, the little he's said is he's interested in like the detective aspect that hasn't really been explored. Sure, right. So for you, the aspect in your mind's eye was, there's a more horror aspect of Batman that hasn't been explored on the big screen? I think so.

Yeah. I think that would be the angle that I would have taken it, you know, do a scary version of Batman, whatever that means. Fair enough, fair enough. So, okay. Okay, so backtracking a little bit. You know, one of the touchstones of this film we talk about is, like, Aquaman, like, some iconic superheroes is this character born of two worlds?

Did you feel like that growing up? I mean, you grew up, you came of age in Australia, but born in Malaysia? Is that something you relate to and feel like you were? I do. Yeah, I definitely do to some degree. I think, you know, it's great to have a hero who is a biracial character, really, half-Atlantean and half-surfers dweller, right? and having this character that be portrayed by Jason Momoa could not be more sort of, you know, perfect.

And so, you know, it was great for him and myself to kind of come into this character and kind of understanding a little bit about that point of view and using that sort of our point of view of the two sort of separate wolves to kind of shape the character arc of the character. Did you have like examples around you,

whether in your family or friends versus in the culture of like a template for your path from the business that you feel or was it sort of like I need to figure out how to make like I don't even do this. I mean that that's the crazy part is the career path that I've picked is cannot be more different from all my cousins

and the rest of my family. You know, I come from a family of really smart people. Like they are, you know, like the engineers and scientists and stuff like that. Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm going to be an artist. I want to make movies for a little. Living. Yeah, you can imagine how well that went down. But it's, you know, I always, you know, I try to break the stereotype. And so, you know, coming from, you know, from a big Asian family, you know, we always kind of seen more sort of, you know, kind of, you know, kind of, more academic type that really put a lot of our emphasis on, on those kind of jobs. And I just did not want a such a traditional career path. And so I kind of went a bit left, Phil, and pursued my level of filmmaking.

Was there a point where you kind of reassured, the family was reassured that this was, that James was going to be okay? Did it take until, because you made a film before Saw, but Saw then obviously exploited at Sundance, like, yeah, it took a while to, it wasn't until Saw that actually made people kind of go, oh, okay, maybe, you know, he, you know, he, yeah, maybe he kind of knows what he's trying to do there. but yeah what's great you know with my mother for example she's always been so supportive of whatever I wanted to do she was the one that got me into a horror movies she loves horror films

and so she was the one that that showed me horror films for a very young age and and she loved movies and because of her that I have my love for filmmaking do you think you know the the the way this business operates has changed quite a bit since Saw do you feel like you I would take the same path today if you were coming of age as a young filmmaker. Would you go the festival route with something like Saw or... It's pretty incredible that the movies that Hollywood wants to make right now, really, that they feel comfortable making, superhero movies and low-budget horror films, okay? It's your time finally, James.

And it literally is like the two kind of like genres that I see. specialize in big budget sort of action movies a low low budget sort of intimate horror films if you can't succeed now i don't know what to tell you man this is it and so i you know it's uh serendipity that uh i kind of just fell into that and uh and you know um you know i i uh you know i i will say this um um you know that today you know like um you know we're willing um and you know including myself and the company that i have atomic monster you know we take chances on young upcoming filmmakers and uh and and we do that with um you know uh you know just seeing maybe a short that they've made and uh and then you know and then kind of like taking them

on board and giving them you know potentially a feature film to to tackle right and uh and you know what that was exactly what happened to myself to me and lee when uh when we made our saw short and it was that short that got us the feature film amazing i'm curious because like when you look at so sorry so that was something we did like 14 15 years ago yeah it's still really of a now so the when I look at the different kind of like horror what became franchises for you I look at Saw and I look at insidious and

conjuring there were a couple different paths for you for instance like Saw you obviously only directed the first one and then it kind of went on and did a different thing right was that part of why you decided to like stay a little closer and direct the insidious sequel and to really preside over this conjuring universe because

you kind of felt like you lost control over Saw a bit yeah I mean you know it you know I you know I you know it it was something that I walked away from really creatively and it wasn't because the producers of the studio did not want me involved I just felt like I had made that movie and I didn't really need to do it again

with the sequels and the crazy thing is that the Saw films became so successful that it actually took me a while to get up from under the shadow of Saw the Saw films and even though

I didn't direct any of the six sequels or seven if you include Jigs saw, I became so associated with that well and with those films that people didn't really see me as a filmmaker outside of the soul films. And it took a while to get people to kind of take me seriously. And, you know, with my second and third movie not been commercially successful, meant that it was even harder for me to get other projects off the ground. It's interesting that it could be argued.

I mean, I guess you could point to a few different things. films is the films that kind of broadened your rep or whatever in the industry. But like, sure, there was Fast 7, but like Conjuring, which obviously is a horror film, but like also couldn't be more different in style and aesthetic. That's really it. So even though, you know, I have directed three, you know, three of the horror sort of horror sort of franchises, you know, from Saw and Insidious and Conjuring, they're all very different films for me.

I know in Cities and Conjuring kind of live more closer together because, you know, they're sort of ghost stories and haunted house stories. But even then, you know, for me, I feel like Insidious is closer to, let's say, phantasm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it felt more sort of like fantastical, you know, more like a fantasy sort of horror genre for me, which, you know, kind of like phantasm was. And the conjuring, obviously, was one because it's a, you know, based on a true life story.

You know, I knew going into that film, I needed to tackle. it in a slightly different way. I approach it more like a drama movie than anything else. And so, yeah, so I, you know, every movie I make, there has to be something that's different in it to challenge me as a filmmaker.

And so that's partially why I felt like I didn't really need it for me to come back to do Conjuring 3. Right, it continues, but you'll oversee it and give it some... As a producer, yeah. I mean, you talk about the word challenge and you think of something like,

7, which obviously, I mean, there's never going to be probably a more challenging film for a number of reasons. That is the hardest movie in my career, yeah. That's just outright the hardest film. As difficult as Aquaman was to make, at least, you know, it wasn't at that level, emotionally at that level. Yeah, I mean, of course, not so people don't need to be reminded,

but of course, Paul sadly passed in the middle of that shoot, and I would imagine, from what I gather, like, there was a time where you weren't even sure you were going to finish that film for a second. Like, what do we do? Pretty much, yeah. You know, I had no idea how we were going to finish that film and if it was even possible to finish the film because when Paul passed away, I had literally only shot half of his scenes with him. And that's what's incredible about the final film is we actually ended up adding more scenes with his character instead of reducing the scenes because we wanted to give him a really, you know, a really sort of.

of emotional farewell and so in a lot of ways we actually went back and added more character stuff to his character and so not only we had not reduced these scenes we ended up adding more and it was

just really difficult to put the film together I can't imagine I'm sure the final shooting script of that looks very little like what you started out doing in many of things I mean that's why you know when we had to go back and do additional photography it's to sort of tie things together, it was, it was literally like a jigsaw puzzle, yeah.

We were sifting through, you know, just, you know, dailies from Paul's other films. And what's so great was that people were willing to volunteer their dailies to us from one of the studios. We ultimately didn't use any, but from other studios, but people love Paul so much that they were willing to help us finish it and give him the correct sort of final farewell sign off. Yeah. I know I think they invited you back for the for the eighth and for, I mean, I understand why you would feel the need to do something different. Do you feel your time in that franchise is done? Would you ever consider doing anything else in that universe? It's a, you know, it's a really fun world to watch, but it's a kind of, it's a tough one to, to make. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I could spend an hour with you just like, what's it like to hang out with direct Vin Diesel? The most interesting man on the planet. I mean, Vin is a really smart guy and he's very intelligent and he knows

he, you know, he, you know, he's kind of guided that sort of franchise to where it is now. Yeah. So, okay, having somehow gotten fast seven to the finish line and achieving what you did, finishing this film and getting the reviews that you're getting and hopefully the box office will correspond to that, it feels like it's going to be hard

to keep kind of raising the bar for yourself I don't know I don't know what that would even constitute at this point I think for me there's other genres that I love that I haven't quite had the chance to explore yet so I left the idea of making

maybe making a more pure science fiction film I think that would be really cool what are your top sci-fi movies like when you think of your hallmarks the ones that stick with you that's a big question it is a big question for me to this if someone asked me that i would be like give me i used to list 20 movies yeah well that's that's really it you know like uh they're different kind of sci-fi movies

i mean you know like you've your star wars films but that's more like sci-fi fantasy right and then uh you know and then i love what cameron did with terminator one i mean and two as well but there was just something really special about the first one for me uh in a different kind of of science fiction kind of way uh and then you know then there's obviously more sort of pure science fiction, you know, with, you know, with like sort of your 2001 and, and, uh, and, uh, and, and, you know, and, and, and, and, and, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, there, is there a specific idea that you have, or is it just sort of, like, I, I'm looking for the right fit for that.

I'm trying to, uh, find the right thing that, uh, that sings to me. Is there, not to be, I would imagine, you don't want to become, like, franchise guy that's always doing someone else's kind of franchise thing, but that being said, is there, like a, is there a, is there a franchise that you would have a tough time legitimately saying no to at this point. Like if like Star Trek, Star Wars, where the Rings comes calling, be like, oh my God, the 12-year-old James Juan's not going to be able to get off. Say no to that.

I might have one, but I don't want to say. Oh. Was it something I just mentioned? No, it's not. Oh, interesting. Yeah, it might be something that I would maybe, maybe love to sort of quietly pursue. We'll see if it happens or not.

But listen, you know, wait. Even with Aquaman, so even though it's in a bigger sort of umbrella world, right? There has a, you know, it's a part of a cinematic universe. You know, I try to make it my own. You know, I try to create my own world. And so, you know, so within the world of Aquaman, it's its own sort of unique world. Yeah. I'm not opposed to the idea of just maybe going up and doing either a small drama or a cute little romantic comedy.

There you go. That's my favorite genre to watch. Is that right? Yeah, I love the romantic genre. And they're not enough of those. Good ones made nowadays. Yeah, I mean, listen, the best one we, you know, one of the best ones we had, was recently with Crazy Rich Asians. I love that film.

Great movie. Just watch it again over the holidays. Yeah, we'll see award season. That one could sneak in there. It'd be pretty cool. So you're going to take a break after this. You're producing a ton, though. Like you've got a swing thing, a rock, racophobia, a lot of cool stuff is coming down to play.

Yeah, I'm thinking that maybe what I should do next is that put the breaks on as, in terms of my directing career and just like, and just, and just kind of back away from directing a while and just sort of focus more on my producing. Are you being serious? I don't know. I mean, that's what I would like to do right now. Dude, what are you talking about? No.

I don't know. I just like maybe, I don't know. Just take a break. Because as you put it out, I do have a lot of project that I'm producing and I love to be able to give my time onto those different projects and focus on them and make sure we do them right.

Okay, I'll give you, you can have a year to focus on these other things. But you're too talented behind the camera. to... Oh, thank you. I, listen, I mean, this is what I will say to that is, first and foremost, my day job is as a director. And so that's my first and foremost love and passion. I love directing. And so, you know, that's what I say now.

We'll see how long I can kind of stay away from it. Fair enough. Look, again, you know, an undertaking like this deserves a little bit of a break. So take a well-deserved vacation, oversee these other cool projects. And I'll talk to you on the next one, man. Congratulations, though, on Aquaman. It's a hell of an achievement. So thank you so much for having me.

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