Happy Sad Confused - Jane Fonda & Lily Tomlin

Episode Date: January 17, 2018

There's a lot of laughter and even some tears on this episode of "Happy Sad Confused". Would you expect anything less from two icons like Jane Fonda & Lily Tomlin? In the sprawling conversation, Josh talks to the two famed actors about their similarities and differences, why they're loving bringing a different face to old age on their hit show "Grace & Frankie" and what filmmaker Jane would love to work with. Plus, you can't have two legendary activists without a candid conversation about the Time's Up movement, what they'd recommend young activists do today, and what cause is making them lose sleep.  But on the whole this is a joyous conversation and a rare treat to hear from two of the greats recounting amazing stories of two lives well lived.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get after him or have you shot You mean blow up the building From this moment on None of you are safe New episodes every Wednesday Wherever you get your podcasts Today on Happy Say I Confused, two living legends, Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin on acting, activism, and their Netflix show. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harle.

It's welcome to another edition of Happy Say Confused, joined as always by another living legend, Sammy Heller. Right before you press play, you go, I'm going to die soon. And I wish it had gotten on there. And everyone, you know, the reason Josh thinks he's going to die soon is because he has a cold. I've had a cold for like a month. I had the flu. Did you get the flu in this season? We haven't talked in a while.

No, if I had the flu, everyone would know. If I had the flu, there would be like helicopters. I did think I was going to die for about a day. Yeah, but you think that a lot. No, no, no, no. This was serious. I could not move. It was hot, cold.

Did you cry? Well, it was hard to differentiate the sweat from the tears. sweat from the tears like did like you know when you feel so sick that you cry no actually i don't well i guess we have different ways of coping with illness um no i've been called have you haven't been caught by the bug no well now i am apparently after being in here i coughed over that microphone that you're talking into oh no this is jane fonda's microphone um yes uh welcome back to the show uh this week we're back with a vengeance took a week off last week week because of Los Angeles

shenanigans. I was running around, I covered the Golden Globes for MTV, went to the Critics Choice Awards, because I'm a member now of the Broadcast Film Critics Association. I'm a critic. And so that was a lot of fun, but Sally, didn't have time to record a podcast. But

hell, we're back with not one but two amazing people. Jane Fonda Lily Tom when we're just here. Makes up for the off week. Oh my gosh. They were remarkable. They just left here. We should mention beyond their 100 years of amazing work and activism that they have the fourth season of Grace and Frankie

coming to Netflix, I believe, this Friday, so everybody should check it out. As I mentioned to them, I'm a convert. I just started watching Grace and Frankie. When I booked them, I was like, I better check out the show. And I've watched all three seasons. I've started to watch the fourth season.

It's a very enjoyable show. It's like you didn't know if you were having a fever dream or if you were watching Grace and Branky. Part of it was I just couldn't move for much of the time in L.A. And I just had to watch something. No, it's a fun show. And it's obviously the two of them reteaming after, you know,

that amazing work in 9 to 5 years ago. And you got Martin Sheen and Sam Waterston. It's a great ensemble and well worth checking out. And not just for old folk. It's for young folk, too. Yeah. Yeah, they're smoking weed. That's right.

They're... They're having sex. They're... They are. A lot of vibrator talk. Fuck. Are you okay? Not really. No, but the conversation with Jane Fonda and Louis Tomlin was amazing. They are two icons and willing to talk about anything and everything. You could do two hours with each one of, like a truncated two hours with each one of them. Crazy. So, I mean, yeah, but we touch on a lot. We touch on a lot of different aspects of their acting career and their amazing activism over the years and the Times Up movement and all the stuff that's going on in politics today. So a really enjoyable conversation with the two of them. And I should mention also coming later this year, I would recommend this. I got a chance to take a sneak peek at the new Jane Fonda documentary that's going to be debuting at Sundance next week. I believe it's called A Life in Five Acts. And that's going to be showing us. up on HBO later this year.

Really great film. The same filmmaker that made the Spielberg documentary recently. So really fascinating. And again, like a two-hour documentary that just scratches the surface of an amazing life. So that's this week's show, Sammy. Are you intrigued? Yeah.

You're so lucky. You went to hang out with Grace and Frankie for the morning. Hashtag blessed. Did you just tell them about how sick you were the whole time? No, I decided that was not a good opening gambit after you shake their hands you guys get the bug yet

not a good opener anything new and exciting in your life I've told you my globes and critics choice shenanigans I mean Will Smith joined Instagram so that was I don't know if I know that you're so ignorant it's amazing

Is it killing it? Is he already It is It's like the rock and Hugh put together It's amazing Really? Well like they each You know, he was like the perfect dad Instagram. The Rock is just like, you know, motivation and fun.

And Will Smith is like both of those combined. You should just, yeah. You know what? I'm going to give him a follow. Yeah. He needs your follow. Will Smith needs your follow. I'm going to toss Big Willis a follow, I think.

Yeah. So that took up most of the time since I saw you last, which was in 2017. Right. Okay, okay. Well, that's good. So 2018 is off to a rip-roaring start. Yeah. Yeah.

Pretty much that and waiting to hear stories about the globes from you. That was how I waited. That's how I spent my time. I don't want to make the intro. It's so super long. But I'll mention a couple quick things off top of my head. I saw our buddy Timmy Chalomey, no less than four times in the last week in Los Angeles. The bromance is alive and well.

We're doing good. Thank God. Somewhere Hiddleston's like putting out a hit. No, no. he told me that as far as he knows Ansel It does not hate me Post the I had a conversation with them at the Globes

About who was more popular in high school I'm a little worried that Ansel might hate me now Ansel if you're listening I love you Ansel doesn't hate you Could never hate you everyone knows that But Timothy seems to be having a blast on the award circuit And well deserved met his sister She was lovely as well

Yeah I got a chance to see a lot of The Happy Second Fused guests in the award season and I saw Army Hammer. Can you tell the Hemsworth? Oh, yeah. I saw Hemsworth. I saw Chris Hemsworth. In brief, I was at the Globes.

I got a chance to sit in the actual, in the show, and I was hanging out, and I saw Chris Hemsworth and Angelina Jolie walk by me as they do. Right. Your eyes burned. It's too beautiful, yeah. And, you know, I have a good relationship with Chris, and he kind of bumped into me inadvertently and I basically did like the mock joking thing

like hey man what the hell is your problem and I just saw like Angelina Jolie flashed me like a death look like who is this meager mortal talking to talking to a god like us and you know she walked on but Chris and I had a nice nice chat and who else

I saw Garrett who was on the podcast recently Garrett Henland told me all about the how the fantasy football league players are all up in arms about that expose coming out. Wait, who else did I see that? I was going to mention to you. Oh, no, it's going to come to me. Don't worry.

Great. Next week. Next week. Next week. Don't tell me until next week. Okay. Stay tuned for more Golden Globe stories. Throughout the year, I'm going to parse out every golden globe story.

Yeah, as he remembers them. In June, there's going to be another story that comes up. It's going to be a good one, though. But it was a special night, obviously, with also the Times Up movement. There was a good atmosphere there, and good to see. People like, oh, Emma Watson was there. Oh, our buddy David Harbour. Spent a lot of time with David.

I saw Allison Asudal, who they are now an item. Hot off the press. Yeah, and I got a chance to hang out with them, the two of them for a bit at the Critics' Choice Awards. That was fun. And, yeah, yeah. I was happy when you told me your wife was there because I was picturing you, like, sitting in between David and Allison,

like their kid. Guys, how fun is this party? I would be adopted by them. Why not? Oh, and I discovered the last thing I'll say before we're tossing to this wonderful conversation. Got a chance to catch up with Allison Brie, and I mentioned to you that Allison and Dave, hey guys. Hi, guys. Hi.

This is so exciting. Allison claims that they enjoy listening to the podcast, sometimes together, sometimes in the car. So if you're driving, pay attention to the road guys. Yeah, drive carefully. We need you guys. We need you guys. Your treasures. And please, Alice and Dave.

Rate review and subscribe. You have to write review and subscribe. Just toss us to review in iTunes, would you? We need even superstars like you to review the podcast. That's all for the preamble. Can they write it off for their taxes? It's like a charity. I don't think it works that way.

Yeah. On to the main event. Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin, Grace, Frankie. Woo! Enjoy. There's no formal introduction. I don't even know how I would introduce Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, but welcome to my office. Thank you.

This is such a privilege. It's a great office for those who can't see it. It's got fabulous posters. E.T. There you know. He's there for comfort. Yes, looking down on us. And I was just telling you guys for the record, you're here to talk about Grace and Frankie, of course, entering its fourth season.

And I confess I hadn't watched the show until when I booked you guys, I was like, okay, I've got to go all in. Obviously, I know your careers. And I've watched 41 episodes of your show in the last week. And I didn't, you know, I could have gone by with a few episodes and got on the gist, but I really, I legitimately enjoyed the show. Oh, thank you. It's a fantastic piece of work. Oh, good. Are you guys, are you guys surprised that you're enjoying it four seasons in?

Or are you more surprised that audiences are still into it four seasons in? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we are, but we're kind of, I've kind of, I feel like it's a, like, that is, that is me in some way, and that is Jane. And of course we're doing it because that's our live, that's us, yeah. We're kind of surprised that so many young people like it, you know. I think part of, young people, I'm talking like, you know, 10-year-olds, they like to watch it with their parents or grandparents. it kind of bonds them together. They cover their eyes about when the vibrators come on.

Sure, vibrators are a secret word. It happens at five times an episode. Never heard anybody. It's all good. But it's such a thrill, you know, to be able to give a face to older women, a face that's funny and yet real, and to have a steady job. There's a lot of bonuses to this. It's funny because, like, you know, growing up, I, like, many, watched, like, a show, like, The Golden Girls,

and you think of something like that, which was a fine show in its own right. Yes. But, you know, I think of those women on that show, and they seem like twice as old as the ladies that sit in front of me. There's just a different temperament. I don't know if it's the times we live in. Well, I think the age has been reduced. I mean, 60s like the, I mean, the 80s like the new 60 or something, you know, at least.

I'm four years older right now than my father was in on Golden Pond. I thought of that. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, you're older than, and Catherine. in that film? Yeah, I'm about 8 years older than Hapburn was. Is that mind-boggling to think about? Yeah, it is. It really is.

You know, he was in the last... He was sick, but she wasn't and, you know, I'm just... Anyway, it's good to be alive and have a good job and have a show that's really popular and that gives hope to people. Makes old age look not so bad. Exactly. When you were

in your 20s, what did you think, like, what was your notion of someone in their 60, 70s, or 80s? Well, I thought they were somewhat advanced, I think I did. My mother had bypassed at 70. She lived to be 91, but I thought of her as, I don't know. I'm thinking back, and I didn't think she was, I just thought she had that condition. Right.

But she was not athletic or anything. She didn't keep herself, you know, physically really able. She was able, but she didn't work at it. She didn't do anything that women have done in the intervening years. She didn't do the Jane Fawn to work at. No. And I didn't think I'd make it past 30. I thought I would die of, I don't know, alcohol or drugs and all by myself and alone.

No, I saw no future. I saw no future. Is that partially obvious? I mean, for those that don't know, I mean, you lost her mother very early on, tragically. Right. I just, I was, I had depression. So the fact that I'm not here And I'm 80

When you married Vadim 23? Well, I started living with him at 23 But I The fact that I'm 80 and that it's better than I was when I was 20 That's pretty good Yeah Yeah

And when I think of both of your lives and careers You both have been able to You know, adapt in so many ways To the different times we live in To different aspects of pop culture and life And the cliche of thinking about people that are in their older years is that they're not adaptable, that they can't change, that they're set in their ways. And I feel like you two stand apart from that. Is that fair to say?

Do you feel like you're still adaptable, that you still can kind of go to the flow and change, or do you feel like you are set in your ways to a degree at this point? Totally not. I feel like a work in progress. I mean, part of me feels like a newbie. very very very very flexible you know if you stay curious yeah and you stand up straight you come across as much younger than you are yeah but uh for you that's true it's true yeah it is true yeah it is indeed true posture has a lot to do with the appearance of young anyway does does work help does i mean you guys stay extraordinarily busy both in the show i believe you're

still doing, you know, theater, you're doing your one woman show when you can, right? Yeah. Is that something that you find sustains you and keeps, you know, is retirement, does retirement equal death in some ways to you guys that you feel like? Unless you found interest that you were going to do at the same, if you just stopped, I think it would be like a death. Yeah. But if you, even if I weren't working in the theater or working in television, if I were doing

something meaningful, I would be all that it would be. People retire and they just rewire. You know, they go off and do a whole new thing. They join the Peace Corps or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I can't even conceive of what retirement would. I mean, I'll die with my boots on. Right. If it's not acting, it'll be more activism.

It'll be something else. If you're writing, it'll be whatever. Yeah. It has to be something. You have to fill it up with something. It just will fill up because that's who I am. And you too. I think so.

Do you remember? I hope so. I don't. Do you guys have some more temperaments in terms of the way you approach the work? Do you feel like you've brought out different aspects of yourselves and working with each other over the last four seasons of Grace and Frankie? Well, I feel like it's so natural. I can't even think of what I would have done

if it weren't with you and the kind of character it is. It's like I say, I feel like it is like they're living. It's like Ernestine, like an old character I did like Ernestine. I felt like she lived in the culture, and I feel like those two women live in the culture, and you have to check in on them every now

and then. I don't think that we're kind of like conscious or self-conscious about methods that are different from each other. And I've gotten much more in the last few years, much more just

kind of doing it I just I guess I've developed to such a point I can just go in and feel like I can do it and you don't worry it so much I think I've rubbed off on you was that I thought you were going to surely say you've worn off on me

well you know because I see I co-produced 9 to 5 and hired Lily and it took a year to convince her to do that it took so long it was hard to convince her to want to do it. And then after a few days of actually working in it,

she wanted to quit because she didn't think she was good. She always worried everything. Always worried. I know I'm not and so, you know, I just say, I said, come on, take a leap of faith. You said that to me way before.

And then you said it again at that time. You said it very frequently. It's how I stay fit. I take leaps of faith. Literally. Instead of jumping jacks. So is that something that That sounds familiar to you, Lily, like on every job over the years? No, no, I haven't, I didn't worry this job at all. I haven't, I'm saying in the last year, several years, at this point, you're not worried about

I haven't worried them too much, no. Is, who's more likely, do you both stick to the page? Do you like to go off and kind of, well, we're not, we don't. We're not really allowed to know, but it would just slow things down because they'd be and they're saying, look at the words, the words are different than what you're saying. Right. But this show's tightly written, and it's, you know,

we have certain flexibility, and however we perform it or whatever life we bring to it, we're doing that, we have to behave. Sure. I think Lily probably does it more than I do, because comedy is much harder than drama, and there's a certain rhythm, you know, and Lily knows that in her DNA,

and I don't, so I think she's more comfortable being flexible. But, you know, movies are, it's a director's medium, but television is a writer's medium. It's all in the words. And so in episodic television, a director will do a scene, and then he'll go back to the video village and talk to the village people and say, how did it go? So they need to give their approval. And if the words aren't right sometimes, they don't give their approval. I mean they've certainly come down and told me

clarified a phrase or a word yeah a word yeah a word since because you obviously Because they built a joke theoretically You took quite a break from acting for a while Jane who me 15 years Yeah I didn't miss it for one moment See so what work were you doing all that time

It was being wife to Ted Turner Uh oh so That's it I was marinating in becoming who I really was And then I decided that I could go back and find joy, and I did. Monster and Law was my first film back. Do you find that as a different kind of a joy you're taking a different kind? Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Because I had lost myself. I didn't know who I was or I was really, really unhappy. And so with Ted, I kind of got back to myself and he made me happy. Do you feel like, Lily, have you ever had to take a break from the job to kind of like cleanse the palate do you feel like that's necessary or is it? I've been forced to take a rest

to look like that according to your resume. It seems like you constantly working. Well I always had I always I always I used to say in the early days when I started out that I always had an act and that's what kept me off the match game. So you know I always had something I could do. Yeah. you know, work on material or get booked into some place to do a date. What was that question? I don't even know. I've lost it. Taking time off.

Yes, thank you. Oh, taking time. No, I don't, I have taken periods where I haven't done anything, worked consciously for three or four months, maybe. That's, you see, yeah, that's different than 15 years. Oh, I know, but I had to, I mean, I had to work technically. You know, I'd taken Mark Twain's path, which was to live in a big house, so I'd have a bigger public personality. I had to pay for it.

Sure, sure. Did you have doubts when you came back to acting that you would, that that muscle had atrophied, that you wouldn't be able to? No, it's like sex and riding a bike. It comes back, you know, if you want to. Remember when she came in at the Oscars, that first appearance? That was a moment. And dazzled the world.

So when the casting directors were like, oh, yeah, Jane Fonda. You need to get her back in movies. And look how she looks. No, it was not difficult to come back because I was ready. Yeah. And it was a good role and a funny movie that people liked a lot, and it was fun to be outrageous. I learned how to do that from 10 years, living with Ted. You talked about how this show has resonated with audiences of different ages.

I think that's definitely true. Do you feel in touch with pop culture of today? I feel like my sense is you guys are actually pretty in touch with 2017, 2018. What year are we in 2018? See, I don't even know. Are there moments where you feel like I just don't understand what culture is anymore, or do you generally feel like you get it? Yeah, I think I get it mostly.

I don't know that I really know it. I don't know all the bands and stuff like I might have when I was 30. But I was always sort of, you know, very tunnel-visioned in terms of my material and what my sensibility and so on. But I knew how to plug in the culture to all that. Sure. And, you know, I have grandkids. And it's hysterical riding in a car with my 14-year-old granddaughter because she sings every word to every hip-hop song. And that goes real fast.

And I just kind of look at her out of the corner of my eye and every single word. It's amazing. So she keeps me up on the music. And, well, my grandson, he's different. But he just keeps me straight. But, you know, I'm on social media and stuff like that, and I watch a lot of TV now, which I didn't used to. You were saying before we were sitting down,

you obviously have seen, call me by your name. You've been catching up on movies. Oh, I'm a Girl Scout. I vote in the Oscars, and so does Lily. and I, we get sent the movies, I see everything. Can you reveal some of your favorites? Oh, let me just say, Phantom Thread. If you have, right, it is a masterpiece.

It's very subtle. It's all in the small gestures and the silences and the eyes, and you have to pay attention, but it's brilliant. And then the other one is shape of water. Also call me by your name and get out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, these are four of my favorites.

Yeah, mudbound is good. Yeah. Are there filmmakers that you still would love to work with? Do you think that? Paul Thomas Anderson, to me, is a genius. He's another level. Just a genius. Yeah.

He stood by for Altman on, you know. That's right. Merry home companion. Prairie home companion, yeah. Because Altman had cancer and he was. He was kind of the backup insurance director. He got us so we could be insured. Right.

Wow. Was Altman? Maya was pregnant. She was in the movie. Do you consider Altman, one of the key collaborators in your career in terms of someone that's... Yeah, I think absolutely. He gave me my first movie role. Right. And that was created a sensation for me because I was, most people were thinking I was Ernestine from Laughan.

And you were nominated. That's right now. Yeah, and I got nominated, so I automatically got into the academy. Right from the start. Right from the start. Oh, God, you were so good. I loved that. I loved how you were in that movie. Well, who do you, do you, when you think back to your film career, and there's too many filmmakers to mention, but do you, can you think of one or two that you feel like were the ones that you had most of a kinship with, that you credit most with bringing out the best in you? Well, you know, what's so great about being an actor is that every director is so, if they're good, they're really different, and they have a different approach, and they cause you to use different muscles that you didn't know you had.

But, you know, I made three movies with Alan Pakula, including the first Oscar-winning movie, Clute. So he was very important to me. Hal Ashby directed coming home, and I won an Oscar for that, and he was extraordinary. Fred Zineman, Julia, is totally different and very brilliant guy. He only would do one or two takes. And I said to Vanessa Redgrave once, how does he do it? And she said he knows how to cast. He would cast perfectly, and then he'd kind of leave you alone.

That was a gift of Altman's, too, as he could cast. Yeah. But those three movies you mentioned, now how did it go? Because I identified immediately. Clued. Ziniman, you tried to get me a part in. And I went to the Emmys that year, dressed as a 50s movie star. Was that a tiara?

The tactic to get a... No, I didn't... I kind of didn't know that Fred Zineman would be looking at the Emmys. And I'm sitting there like with my tiaras all cock-eyed, you know, and the next day Mr. Blackwell said on Good Morning America, he leaned into the camera and Lily Tomlin we do not wear tiaras but it was just a whole put on for me and I did it for Altman because I knew Altman would get a kick out of it and so and I was going to have you know rhinestone eyeglasses and say sunglasses and say some of you will and I had oh I had

a big fox fur and I had a dress I got out of the NBC wardrobe with piettes silver payette's like RuPaul RuPaul before time There's see there I go again So anyway And I was going to say some of you will think I've gone Hollywood Anyway I didn't win so I didn't get to say that

But then what was the other thing On Hal Ashby Jane and I First time we went out We went to see You know Harold and Maude And we saw it We sat through it twice

So Hal Ashby was just like the end of the world for me at that moment. What was the other movie you said? Julia Clute. Clute. Clute. Al-Bacula. He wanted to tape. After I did my first Broadway show,

appearing nightly, he wanted to go in the studio and just try to film it. And I didn't do it. Is this a regret? Oh, regret. I just, my heart fell out of my chest when he died. When he died, and that option was just closed to me and I thought

oh, it makes me cry right now it was just such a loss. Yeah, yeah. I took the opportunity to look at your first collaboration 9 to 5 which is such a fun movie and amazing to watch today because in some ways it feels extraordinarily relevant Oh my God, yeah.

Which is in some ways kind of depressing because I would think that you probably thought at then surely 35 years hence we're not going to be talking about the same things, harassment, equal pay, et cetera. Now it's a strange marker of the times that... We're still at it, yes. What do you make of that? To me, it's, you know, it's a long haul, man. The patriarchy is going to take time.

But it's a wounded beast, which means that we've gotten stronger and it's running scared, which means it's very dangerous, but we just have to recognize that we're strong and kill it finally once and for all. Cut us damn throat and do away with it. I mean, we're fighting now for one fair wage. You know, 13 million people in the United States

work as tipped workers, and they have, and 70% of them are women, and they have three times the poverty rate, and more sexual harassment because they have to put up with, they live on their tip, so they're dependent on, you know. But the same thing, Listen, this is really fantastic to know.

In the seven states that don't have a two-tier system where tip workers earn the same minimum wage as everybody else plus dips, sexual abuse was cut in half. Well, there you go. See, when there's economic parity, yeah. Women don't have to put up with it. So that's what we're working on. And then slowly those male restaurant owners are disappearing from the earth.

They're just falling into a puddle of despair. Like dinosaurs, yes. And there's some good ones that are rising up, that do treat their work as well. Was parity and pay with your male co-star something you were aware of? No. At the time, do you think you were making the same as Redford, etc.?

You know something? I thought I'd had so little value. I didn't pay attention. If I had found out that I earned less, I would have thought, well, that's just because I'm worth less. It never would have occurred to me. And that speaks volumes. You, who has so much self-worth,

even you, it wouldn't even occur to you. Well, that's very recent. That's why I like being 80s so much, because my self-worth is very recent. But, you know, now I would pay attention. Yeah. But, you know, and I made sure Robert and I earned the same amount in the last movie we made.

But before then, no, I didn't pay attention. Did you? Yeah, but I wasn't big enough star to, a movie star, to demand. I would have assumed, I would have been conscious that I know you made more money than I did on 9 to 5. on the back end

but you deserved it you were the producer you struggled for that story etc etc different considerations that's right and so I have those considerations we all earned the same salary

I know we did in terms of the acting fee yeah the acting fee well there you go no I was just I just brought that up I was trying to she's being filled I feel like there's dirty laundry

that you're trying I feel like there's a wedge in the relationship I just come up sorry guys no season 5 was racing Frankie we had a good run I was going to tell you something It was something or other Oh, well we started

a little fracas when we were doing Grace and Frankie because... What do you mean we? You did. Well, you were sitting right along there going along with it. It was your joke. Say what you said. What did I say? I said someone, the New York Times asked me if I, something about

my check or my salary or something right? I said, oh, I was pretty happy with my check until I found out that Sam and Martin make the same as we do and we're the Leaves of the series and so that

just ahead of the Me Too and the drop them or whatever the them is. You sort of did it all. Time's up. Drop them is a good one too though. Time's up. Yeah just just before we actually probably

preceded that we we sort of honey we proceed everything. You could definitely Anybody that preceded us is dead. The Times Up movement, which is remarkable. I mean, I was at the globes. I was working on the carpet.

It was great. It was great. It was actually a beautiful... Encelebratory, not doubt. Yeah, it was. Absolutely. And it's really, it's been a fascinating time the last few months since this, like, one thing, you know, the Harvey Weinstein thing, it just starts everything off. I'm just curious, does it make you reevaluate? and think back to your own relationships on set,

the things that you saw, the people that you interacted with, you know, people, some people will make the argument, oh, it was a different time, et cetera. What do you make of it? Look, when you think back to your own career and your own experiences about the things that you saw and experienced? Well, I didn't, you know, I didn't experience so much. I mean, I did have, I had enough of, you know, the BS with, like, a producer,

if he's a good friend, be laughing, talking about something, and he might grab my arm and pull me down on his lap and kind of give me a big bear hug, kind of, you know, nothing too offensive. But I knew it could have led to anything. Sure. And I would just say, you know, cut it out, you know, and all that stuff. And I would just, and I never notice other people on the set who might be going together or have their eye out on somebody, except you. I've noticed. You can't ignore it. You can't miss it.

No, I got fired. When I was a secretary, I got fired because I wouldn't sleep with a boss. And then once a French director, this was like my fourth movie. You know, he said the character has an orgasm and I have to see what your orgasms are like. And I just laughed. That's pretty blatant. But aside from that, I didn't run into it, no. But, you know, I've been involved in the Times Up organizing in a lot of the meetings.

and it's just amazing what these women have gone through. Unbelievable. I mean, do you have sympathies? It's a complicated subject, obviously, to say at least, when you think back to, like, because we're going back decades in some of these things that have come up, whether you, you know, Dustin Hoffman stuff, Woody Allen stuff, who you've worked with Lily, you know,

keeps coming back around. Do you feel like all this needs to be looked at with certain different contexts? They're obviously different behaviors. You can't put it all under one umbrella, but certainly there is a culture that needs to change. That's for sure. And it's been around for, you know, centuries.

Is this millennia? Yes, it can start with movies. No, and it's much worse in other industries. And, you know, I do agree that we have to differentiate between joking around innocently and something that's offensive. But we also have to understand that what may. not be offensive to me, could turn another woman over the edge, you know, could flip another, you know, that people have to realize that when a woman is sexually abused, it's, it can be life-altering,

and you can spend the entire rest of your life trying to heal from it. It's not a joke, and it's not to be taken lightly. And I think what's happening is a real turning point and very, very important. And as time goes on, I think we're going to make it much easier for men to understand what's acceptable and what's not. I mean, time's up. I think the next meeting is devoted to men, helping men kind of understand the playing field, which I think is great, because we all love men, and, you know, we're going to need to have men on our side. You know, it's a small planet and too many of us, and we have to learn to be nice to each other, because we need each other. I'm curious, you know, we kind of alluded to this a little bit, but do you remember when you felt

like you had a voice on set that you felt entitled to kind of speak your mind on a film set or I mean you know you were generating a lot of your own material so it might have been a little bit different for you Lily I'm not sure but I mean in terms of when you felt you had agency to make your argument

to to go to when I started producing my own movies with 9 to 5 and China syndrome and coming home those movies then I started to feel agency but I was in my late 40s by then. Well, I have to say when I'm patting myself

on the back and I don't really mean to. It's like I didn't have the concept of the system working a certain way. Like when I, the first national job I had was on the Gary Moore show when he made a comeback and he failed.

He was canceled midseason. But on Smothers Brothers replaced him because he was like an old gasp of the old variety show. And I had been tapped to go on that show and I just fought with the writers the material I was more concerned always about the sensibility of what was being presented and uh and I would just I would go up to the writer's office and I'd say you can't do this this is just awful this is blah blah blah and they bring in some

actress to do a bit and I'd hear laboring over this material for hours and then they drop it they wouldn't even do it, you know, and I'd go and I'd say, see, look what you put, it would be like the one who had the thing about the girls boarding school, Charlotte Ray, look what you put Charlotte Ray through for hours trying to make that material work, and then you just drop it. You're just sending her home, and she's not going to have the job or anything. And then I got canceled after the third episode. But, and then I did that always. I mean, even on something like all of me, which I wanted to change Steve's tie in a scene. I didn't like the tie. I was just outspoken about stuff. And I think that's what kept me from any kind of sexual harassment, too.

There's filmic evidence of The Infamous, and I love it. One of my favorite viral videos, you and David O' Russell going toe to toe. Yeah, that's true. They're friends now. I know. Oh, we are, but we were friends that day, but. Well, you clearly speak his language. He's, he's, he's, I've I've interviewed, I've interviewed many times, and look, many great actors love the way he works and clearly. I do, yeah. So that infamous crazy video, which, again... I forgot. I've forgotten about that, you know? I don't think so.

It's quite a few years ago. I think kind of forget about it. But is that, like when you saw that video, I'm curious from your perspective, Jane, being a friend of Lily's. Like, is that a familiar kind of scene for you on a set? Have you... Totally not. I'm not a conflict person. I have a really hard time. I don't like conflict.

Yeah. It's curious. I should have mentioned also I got a chance to watch the new documentary about you. Oh, you did? Oh, gosh. What did you think? I thought it was fascinating. I mean, I know a great deal about your life, but to see it kind of encapsulated in that way.

And the structure is fascinating, too, in that I believe it's a life. Five acts. and it's curious I mean this is going to be a documentary that's screening at Sundance I'll be there I know you're going to be there and it's going to be shown on HBO I think later this year

because it's very much about you being defined by the men in your life at least to a certain point and that's again fascinating given what we've talked about and you've been pretty open and that it took you a while to kind of like come into my own

to your own yeah and the men help me yeah in different ways obviously yeah yeah um is that something have you watched the documentary yourself not since it's finished i'm so hard oh my god it's so hard because it's not entirely flattering well i mean like because you both of you and kind of researching you know like what to talk about with you guys it was almost like overwhelming for me because i feel like i could talk about anything with you too partially because you've lived so many different lives fascinating lives, but also because you're both

kind of, it seems like open books, you're willing to kind of go anywhere for you, like when you did the documentary, are there aspects of your life that you still feel are tough for you to talk about? Right, so I'm not going to talk about it. Well, I'm not going to ask you about it, but I'm curious

like what, I mean, is it, is it because you're talking about very intimate things in the documentary in terms of your father and marriages that didn't work or did work. Is that part of the therapy to kind of like talk about this stuff? I think the reason that I do it is because I found a way to do it that is helpful for other people. It's almost like it's somebody outside of me.

And I try to turn my life into a lesson of things to avoid or thing to embrace or what I've learned. And it's why my memoir was so successful is because it really spoke to a lot of people, including men. and help them understand their own lives. That's the only reason I do it. I'm not sure if you said it in the dock or something else I said, but at some point talked about your father having regrets at the end of his life. And I don't want to die with regrets, so I'm trying to live in a way that will minimize them.

Yeah. I mean, as you guys sit here today, I mean, are the regrets that you have when you think about them, are they personal ones or are they professional ones or a mixture of? Oh, personal. I mean, God, you know, you're lying on your deathbed, you're not going to think about professional. The job is turned down.

No. or the stuff you didn't buy or any of that. It's all, do my kids really love me? Was I a good enough parent? You know, did I leave the world a little bit better than before, you know, things like that? Also, because I sort of feel that the answers to those questions determine whether you survive on any energetic level afterwards. That's legacy.

That's, yeah. I mean, for you, Lily, in a different way. kind of alluded to this like it seems like a lot of the way you've approached life has been you haven't overthought it like you've just sort of like charted your own path in a way like this seems right to talk to interact with people the way i do to create the way i do let's not over think it's kind of it's almost in contrast to jane in some ways in that i feel like you've lived the life that you've examined very deeply it's very intentional yeah so i i that's why i've adopted her life i could just jump right to the point she's achieved and

There, skip all the messy stuff. All the work. But, I mean, it's curious. I mean, obviously, because, you know, you've been open in your personal life, you and your wife, Jane, who have been together well over 40 years, I mean, you were never really, for instance, in the closet, right? You just didn't, there was never a proclamation. It's just you lived your life and the people close to you knew, but you never made a secret of the way you were. Some people thought, I mean, some people who thought I was gay. I never said, well, I'm not gay.

Yeah. And, in fact, I think I recall you, I was in San Francisco, and it was like, it was after you'd seen me on appearing nightly, because I did that bit in appearing nightly where I do the heterosexual interview, and I play both parts, or I can't remember how I did it, but it's on one of my record albums, and the person says, Lily, oh, I play the interviewer, and she's like, talking kind of like this. Anyway, she says, A little like, what was it like to see yourself on the screen, making love to a man? And I said, oh gosh, you know, I've seen these women all my life. I know how they walk. I know how they talk.

Some people said I went too far. Some think I didn't go far enough. And it goes on and on like that. And all I had done was I took Cliff, what's his name, he was in boys in the band. He was straight. Okay. And he flipped,

he told, every interview he did. This was way back in the days of boys in the band, and he tried to make everybody know he was straight. As he would. I just turn it on its head. Did you feel like did people try to

exert influence on you over the years and like, quote unquote, outing you and thinking that. Oh yeah, sure. Some people I can name famous people who did, if I could remember their names. You know, the woman And the woman who wrote, and I've never met her, and I would like to have met her and everything. And in later years, I would really have liked to have met her.

She wrote always in, you know, like E.E. Cummings in the Village Voice, you know, lowercase, no punctuation. And when I first started going out with, when I first was with Jane, we became a couple very quickly. And she called me up and threatened me on the phone. called me at Jane's apartment and threatened me and said I'm going to do this to you and I'm going to do that if you don't come out if you don't make a statement if you don't do this and it was like 1971

or something and I said first of all you will get nowhere with me by threatening me I was just really pissed off and so there have been a lot of people like that over time and then they had the outing thing where people would send your cards on October 11th

that you should be out and why October 11th I don't know I forget why anniversary of Stonewall or something no I don't think it is no I don't know why it got picked It's curious because I mean

11 11 is my lucky number There you go Because there's a lot to be To pull your hair out About nowadays clearly But the advancement For the LGBT community Is something to point to as

progress I mean are you heartened Are you surprised sort of like where you were in your life in your 20s to see sort of where that community lives today? I'm totally amazed at the gay community that they've made what kind of progress they've made. It's just been, of course there's a lot of smart people who are gay and a lot. And there are people mostly men who through the years they had the wherewithal. They made, they were more professional and the women were much lower, you know, scale down beach, down whatever that phrase is, down. socially downward, mobile. Sure.

Immobile. We're just going to throw a lot of words out. We'll figure it out. Because women couldn't, they really couldn't work or make that kind of money. They'd have to, unless they were professional and fewer women who were gay, had professional jobs at that

point. Yes. And it's, you know, the gains that have been made are life-saving. I spent 20 years living in Georgia and, you know, teens killing themselves. And it's just, it's so, so important what's happening. You know, I'm sitting in front of two fantastic activists.

What do you lose sleep over in 2018? What do you lose sleep over nowadays? I mean, is there, it's hard to kind of figure out the one issue to be most up and arms about. The Earth is collapsing. Yeah, the planet is. I mean, that's. And nobody, and it's not even in the news. I mean, it's so minimally mentioned.

Of course, Trump is such a distraction. He does broken field stride. I feel like he's conscious of everything he does and that he's totally distracting one week so that he's doing some stuff behind the scenes during that week and then he comes out with another big... But alongside every single thing that happens, we have to be aware that the earth is dying

and that it's a race against time. Because at a certain point, it doesn't matter what happens. We're going to, we're going down. You know, the stuff we saw, the fires, the floods, the earthquakes, all of that is just the beginning. It's going to get much worse, and we have to try to stop it while there's still time. But as an American, what I lose sleep on is I feel that our democracy is being stolen from us. And we have to fight like hell, and I'm pretty optimistic that we can't.

I will say, I mean, because, you know, I grew up, you know, I'm a, you know, cliched like, you know, upper west side liberal from Manhattan. My wife works for me. Well, don't be liberal. Radical. Well, that's what I was going to say, is frankly, the election radicalized me. A lot of people. I think so, right?

People who never considered themselves to be activists. Because it felt like now or never, like the stakes had just gone as high as they get. Right. Well, there's, as Jerry Brown puts it, you know, Trump, as negative energy is coming at you, and that releases positive energy, and there's a lot of positive energy that's been released. We just have to, you know, be sure it's channeled to constructive uses. you know, like organizing in the grassroots and winning back the House, the Senate,

governors. Well, I was going to say, you know, you've both had remarkable, you know, take away all the acting and everything else. You've lived amazing lives of activism, and you were a full-time activist for a long while, Jane. I mean, what would you say to, you know, someone at their 20s or 30s to, like, what do you do to kind of, like, channel? Find out what's going on in your area.

What are the on-the-ground organizations that are actually making a difference? March on the 20th. There you go. But we have to do more than March. I mean, we have to resist and say no, but we also have to, if we're going to win, we have to say yes to say, and yes, we have to know what kind of a society we want. Yeah.

And I think it has to be, you know, more empathic and compassionate and less militaristic. Absolutely. And we have to save the plan. It could be completely void of any military, to militaristic, shenan. nanigans. Yeah. Gone. Do away with.

Lightening it up, putting a bow on this wonderful conversation. Okay. Because that's all very important, but not as important as Greatson Frankie season four, obviously, which is the most important thing. I'll tell you one thing. It's a lot easier being an activist with a hit series behind you. I would think. Oh. I mean, when we go out together on our dog and pony show, it's pretty great.

People love it. She was a waitress, you know, so we talk about waitressing. Is that right? Sure. Could you still be a waitress today? Do you feel like you still have the schools? Oh, yeah, sure, sure. No question.

What can't you do now that you miss being able to do 30, 40 years ago? Is there anything? Just not get up in the morning when I have to go to work at five. Is that your call time? They're so brutal. Five. Why would they do that to you? Well, I have to be an early start on makeup.

Okay. And hair. I have that, like, a funny thing, I might have that big hair, you know, that I wear. And Jane says, your agent, your agent, that hair. It needs its own agent. Do you become less self-conscious about that kind of stuff at a certain point, or more self-conscious about the... What kind of stuff? Well, the appearance, the, I mean, does that, can you ever let that go in a certain degree?

I mean, you're in an industry that is all about that, unfortunately. but I would hope that with age also comes a little self-acceptance Yeah, I can't... No touch me. No, I was announced earlier this week or this morning or something.

I announced that I was going to slowly start not wearing makeup. Yes. Any makeup. Why not? Well, you have to wear a little something for a camera, like maybe a little base. There's a tip to the actors out there.

Go with the... the base, don't overdo it. Yeah, follow along with Francis McDormand, and I saw Shirley McLean at the Globes. I don't think she had any makeup on. Yes, she did. Well, maybe base. No, she had makeup on. She did not have her eyes delineated.

Well, okay. Anyway, my attitude about, you know, it's very hard, because I, well, we both kind of grew up in the 50s, but, you know, I was very much, sort of, it was drilled into me that if I didn't look perfect, I wouldn't be loved. But now that I'm right smack dab in the middle of oldness, I will say that if something goes wrong, it's like, eh. I mean, like I've had a cancer removed from my lip. You know, listeners, I'm sitting here with bandages on my lip.

I was on the Tonight Show last night with Lily with bandages on my lip. What's a lip in the scheme of things? There you go. Right. Well, if you're right in the middle of a big smooch. I'm not smooching anymore, except with my dog. You've given up on smooching, I hear. Well, you know, maybe when my lip heals, just smooching.

I'll go back to middle school. Right. At first base. Kissing is the best anyway. Yes, yeah. Oh, God. I just love her. It has this strength. It has to have strength in the relationship.

You knew each other very well for decades, and you only collaborated once on an infant, you know, a wonderful film. But we did a lot of tributes. I mean, mostly I tributed her. And I attributed her too, and we did activism together and stuff. Or she did a favor for me. She'd come and be interviewed at the Gay Center for, you know, we had different programs that we're trying to always sell to cable.

I don't know whether I could survive the hours and the work if it wasn't for working with her. I mean, I really, I look forward to, she is a hoot. And, you know, I'm kind of a downer. So to be with somebody who just, someone asks a question, her answer is always funny. And so I'm trying to learn to do that. And I'm getting better at it because of her. Oh, she's very funny.

Every now and then. She got off a great line on the Today Show. Today Show. And then she got off a good line here. I think there were a few. Yeah. Yeah, but she did one very kind. But she, I'm learning from watching her.

Some I've heard. She delivers it as if it's the first time. Some she's heard me say. But you did say one good, really sharp thing. Today? Yeah, in this performance. We'll do the post-mortem on it and we'll evaluate. I think you guys get a B-plus, A-minus, maybe even an A.

I don't know. You did really well. Well, I probably hovered at a C. No. Her grade brought me up. You were at least a B-plus. Impossible. Impossible.

You were an A-plus, sir. That's very sweet of you to say. I don't get nervous often. I've had a lot of pretty amazing performers on this show. But to talk to one of you is intimidating. To talk to the two of you, it's kind of overwhelming. I think that would be more warming and... Well, it's more of a conversation.

I can let you two banter and I'll sit back and enjoy. Yeah. That part is fun. We should use that. If people get nervous with us, we should use that negotiating and stuff. Yeah. There's nothing I can provide you with besides, you know, negotiating. You know, like

for more money and stuff. We should go in together and be intimidating. I've told you that. My God. Yeah, but I mean him saying it kind of means more to me. Wow. I take that it's the highest possible

compliments. I mean, look at all the names on the board there that he's interviewed here. Not bigger than you two. No, I can see that actually. See, she's killing me. When's the last time you were intimidated by somebody, Jane? Do you get nervous in any situation at this point? I can't remember.

Not lately. Well, that's not because you haven't been intimidated. Oh, I'm very intimidating. I just can't remember. I'm old. That's right. Does that ever happen to you? Do you find yourself?

Intimidated. Kind of, yeah. But most of because I don't really take the forefront, you know. What is that mean? noter. She's willing to be the second banana and jump in with a good line. Is that what we're talking about? I don't know. I have no.

All I know is that as we've been going to all these shows and looking at clips, every clip you have the funny line, and I'm going to talk to the writers about it, because it's really obvious when we look at clips. I don't think it's the lines. I think it's well, you know how to deliver. No, you always have the good lines, plus your reaction.

I mean... We can't diminish the strange. straight man. There's nothing, you know, you need the straight man to have the counterbalance. I said to someone just last night, I said, Jane and I could become the next Dan Rowan and Dick Martin. Of course, she would be Dan Rowan and I would be Dick Martin. Laughing for 2018, reborn. Very exciting.

That's right, Alan Costello is better. I'd like to say. Who's on first? One of us is going to have to put, well, I don't want to be the one that has to put the weight on. It's fair enough. It's been such a pleasure and such an honor. I can see you're still taking it in the office. I'm reading all your names. Please enjoy.

You're welcome to stay here. I'm trying to fundraise in New York, so I'm looking at all the people there. It's true. Which cause needs the cash? One fair wage. Yeah. That's something so simple, kind of fundamental, and it will make a huge difference. Oh, it would be.

And Cuomo says he's going to bring it to New York, Governor Cuomo. And he's going to have a lot of pushback from the next. National Restaurant Association, the other NRA. And so we have to be sure that we really, you know, support him and push him to do it because it would be historic. Absolutely. Absolutely. This sadly wraps up

your New York leg of the Grace and Frankie Tour. I hope you've had a good time. New York has been important in both your lives. Yes, it has. Fawn memories. Yes, I was born here. There you go. Yeah. I wasn't born here, but I came here from Detroit. And she was a waitress at

Howard Johnson's. Oh, I miss Howard. 49th in Broadway. They got torn, you know, got closed down. She announced that she was the waitress of the week, month. Yeah, I would duck down behind the counter, you know. It was always mischiefing. That doesn't sound like you. But I wore my uniform regulation and all that.

I always had a little paper hat on and a hairnet. I think he's trying to get rid of it. No, no, no, no. You just have too many talents to talk about. I mean, we can talk about your waitressing the next time. Let's save it for season five, Grace and Frankie. Do it. It's a deal. Give me five. Okay. Okay. Good to see you guys. Five's all around. Grace and Frankie, season four, this Friday. Check it out on Netflix. Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin. Thanks for stopping by today. Thank you. See you in Sundance.

And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by you. Bye, Josh. Goodbye, Summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down

late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another. father, Timothy Chalemay playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bagonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine. Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two.

Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.