Happy Sad Confused - Jeff Nichols (and Telluride wrap-up)

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

Josh wraps up his time at the Telluride Film Festival with a recap of ALL the films he saw (10 of them!) and then chats with THE BIKERIDERS director Jeff Nichols about his new movie, working with Austin Butler & Jodie Comer, and more. UPCOMING EVENTS! 10/9 -- Come see Josh and Josh Gad & Andrew Rannells at the 92nd Street Y in NYC! Virtual tickets available too. Get your tickets here! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!⁠ NordVPN -- 🌏 Get Exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ ⁠⁠https://nordvpn.com/HappySad⁠⁠ It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✌ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances, it can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News.

And every morning, my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. I'm Josh Horowitz, and today on Happy Sad, Confused,

we're wrapping up the Tell Your Ride Film Festival with a conversation with the bike rider's director, Jeff Nichols, talking all things, Austin Butler, Jody Comer and more. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Well, as you can see, if you're watching this on YouTube, I am in Colorado. I am outside enjoying this idyllic atmosphere as the Telleride Film Festival comes to a close. Apologies for some nature noises, some air conditioning noises, but this is, you know, we're in the elements.

We're in the wild. So I wanted to give you guys a flavor of what it's like to be at Telluride. Coming up later in this episode, the feature conversation is with the director that I absolutely love. This is Jeff Nichols, who has never been on the podcast, and he's done so many great things that I hugely respect shotgun stories, take shelter, which really introduced me to Michael Shannon and Jessica Chastain, mud, midnight special. And now he's got this great new movie, The Bike Riders, which premiered him. here and features a a all-star cast of my favorites uh jody comer austin butler michael shannon boyd holbrook tom hardy uh the list goes on and on so that's uh the feature conversation coming up a little bit later but first i want to give you guys a little bit of a wrap up on telly ride because this is such a

special festival i talk about going to festivals all the time and i've been privileged enough to go to things like Sundance and Cannes in Toronto over the years. And this is my second, um, tell your ride and hopefully the second of many, because, uh, there's nothing like it. For those I don't know, tell your ride, um, is a smaller festival, way smaller than the other festivals. Um, but the quality of films is, uh, unparalleled. Um, I've seen 10 movies here. And I can say, honestly, they're all good. Some of them are great. They're all good, though. I recommend all of them in different capacities for different reasons. So I wanted to give you guys a little bit of a rundown of what I saw and give you a sneak peek of films that are going to be coming to a theater near you, hopefully soon, sometimes a little bit later.

But let me refer to my phone now to see what I saw and I'll give you the rundown. And like I said, you might have heard of some of these things, some of these things you may not have heard of. So in no particular order, I saw the holdovers, which is the new film from Alexander Payne, one of our great's, you know, sideways about Schmidt. election um this is a 1970s early 70s set prep school a kind of dromedy starring paul giamati really entertaining very funny very sweet uh echoes of scent of a woman in there for good or for bad but giamati kills it um and it's great to see alexander pain back after downsizing which was a bit of a dip so that was uh the first night i saw that one and the bike riders which i'll talk about a little bit later on um all the strangers new film for

Andrew Hay, really emotional, beautiful story, really sad, to be honest, bring tissues. This one stars Andrew Scott, Paul Mezcal, Jamie Bell, who we love around here, and of course, Claire Foy, who you guys know I adore. So that one is really, boy, without saying too much, it's kind of a weird kind of a ghost story in a way. Andrew Hay really dives deep into Andrew Scott's character and explores his lack of coming out to his parents way back when and kind of how he's wrestled with that as an adult. Paul Mescal is this kind of man that comes into his life. And Claire Foy and Jamie Bell are the parents. All excellent, really beautiful story, as I told, as I said, and will touch you if you have a heart inside. And as you guys know, I barely do.

But it worked on me. Saltburn, you've probably heard about from Emerald Fennell. This is the promising young woman follow-up, and it's fantastic. It is a big, audacious swing of a movie. Look, if I'll tell you right, person leaving. Look, that's atmosphere. This one starts Barry Hogan, who we love around here, Jacob Alluredy. Carrie Muggan has a small cameo. Rosamond Pike steals all the scenes she's in. And it's kind of, without revealing too much, it's basically about a young man who kind of infiltrates a high society family. Jacob of Lordy's family, Rosamine Pike is the matriarch, and Barry Keogan is kind of this mysterious young man. Very funny, very dark, twisted.

If you thought promising young woman was dark and twisted, you ain't seen nothing yet. This was a divisive movie for some, but I really enjoyed it. The zone of interest, who is a really, it's a tough sit, but it's a worthy sit. It is from Jonathan Glazer, who's only made a few films, sexy beast, birth. um what was the last one under the skin under the skin and so it's been many years this is a holocaust movie in a sense but it's unlike any you've ever seen this is about a commandant who and his family who live right outside the camps and you never see the actual atrocities you're kind of seeing the banality of evil you're seeing this family kind of like go through the motions of their life very powerful

shot in a very unique austere way it will stick with you uh fallen leaves uh kind of a slice of sweet finish movie that was that played very well at can that was my last film here 80 minutes kind of a sweet kind of a love story between two people struggling to kind of find a fine connection in the world a slider movie but but worth worth checking out if you're so interested the royal hotel I saw this is from kitty green who directed the assistant with julia garner this reteams her with julia this is really entertaining good movie I mean a Tense, tough movie, but 90 minutes set in the Australian Outback, two young women who are working at a local bar with really a rough crowd, and it will, you know, you will be gripped

by this drama with moments of humor here and there, but really effective, and I'm very impressed with what Kitty Green's been doing so far, and Jessica Hennick's in it as well, and she's fantastic. Tuesday, a big swing of a movie, Julia Louis Dreyfus in a dramatic role. A movie about mortality and loss and grief with supernatural elements. This one's from A-24. It doesn't come out this year, so you have to wait on that one, but we're checking out. And then we're finishing strong with anatomy of a fall, which I was just mesmerized by. This is two and a half plus hours, but feels like it's 100 minutes.

It is a police procedural. It's a dissection of a marriage. It is, it won the palm door at can, the big prize it can. fantastic movie just so well told uh and kind of a genre movie like that kind of like um not thriller but um courtroom drama that isn't doesn't isn't done much anymore and it's just so well done an amazing lead performance from sandra heller who's also in zone of interest and it's going to have quite a season um and then before we get to the bike riders um poor things which i loved maybe my favorite movie of the festival poor things from yorgos lanthamos um man this wowed

everybody at Venice then it came over here emma stone um what to say about this it's kind of a Frankenstein story it's based on a novel um i haven't read it but um visually audacious um as you would uh almost what you would expect that of a terry gilliam movie um emma stone the arc of her character is remarkable um it is uh provocative it is kind of sweet at times and inspiring and very funny um people who are loving mark ruffalo i in particular love william defoe in this uh this could be a big oscar movie and it's it's a wild movie it's not going to be for you know the stodgy academy crowd but it the talent on screen and behind the screen is undeniable in this and it's it's a special one so that finally brings us to the bike riders and and to jeff nichols so um jeff is a

really smart humble filmmaker and this is his biggest movie yet budgetarily and cast wise um this This movie doesn't open until December. So this conversation is a little bit unusual in that obviously 99% of you guys haven't seen this movie yet. There's nothing. So we do dive into a lot of the characters and most specifically the actors he worked with in this in this film. I don't think it's spoilery really in any way. It's going to give you a taste of how he put this film together, why he put it together, how he came up with this cast. In a nutshell, it's based actually on photography by a man named Danny Lyon of a biker gang.

in I believe in the late 60s, this photography really inspired Jeff to create this fictional narrative, inspired by real people, about a subculture, a biker group. He calls them the vandals in this. And he cast the hell out of this movie guys. I mean, as I said, the lead performances, I would say, are Austin Butler and Jody Comer, Austin in kind of pure movie star, magnetic, mysterious mode, opening shots of this film. If you're an Austin Butler fan, this is the first five minutes you will be satiated you will be happy trust me if you are a jody comer fan as you guys know like myself i mean so happy for her and us that we are living in a time of jody comer and to see what he does what she does in this movie um a true character a true

accent that will stick with you kathy is kind of the narrator of the story she's telling her story to i guess the danny lion surrogate played by mike fice who you might have seen in West Side Story. And then you have Tom Hardy as the leader of this gang. And I think it's one of Tom's better roles in recent years. I'm always mesmerized by him. You have Boyd Holbrook popping up. You have Norman Reed is popping up. And it's, it has a lot of echoes of Goodfellas. We talk about that in this conversation. And I think Jeff wears those influences on his sleeve. If you love and know Goodfellas in Scorsese's work, you're going to see that in this film. So it's definitely an evolution for Jeff. It feels like a Jeff Nichols

movie i would say but it definitely um feels um new and different and exciting so this conversation i will say so if you're watching this on youtube um this was audio only tell you ride doesn't really do on camera interviews there are no red carpets there's no giant glitzy parties that's kind of the the beauty of it so this was literally recorded in a yoga studio me and jeff sitting around uh with my audio equipment um and it couldn't have been more casual and um you know as you guys know i'm i'm i'm i i posit positively love. Michael Shannon, who's a very close friend of Jeff's. He's been in all of his films. So it was fun to kind of close the circle and catch up with Jeff and talk about Mike and this movie and preview it for all of you guys. So audio only, but I think you'll

enjoy it. Here is my chat with the director of the bike riders. Put it on your schedule, December 1st coming to theaters. Here's me and Jeff Nichols. So this is not the typical Happy Set Confused. I don't usually do Happy Set Confused in a yoga studio in Telluride, but I'm making an exception. But we're not doing yoga. No, no, we are. Right now. For those imaginations running wild.

That's why, yes, exactly. Downward dog, Jeff. Jeff Nichols is joining me. I'm such a fan of yours. We've never done like the long form conversation. And this won't be exactly the full thing. But I'm thrilled we're getting a chance to speak in this context. I'm flattered.

Thanks. So, yes, to set the scene, we're in Tell You Ride. This is Jeff's first. I'm kind of shocked by that, but you, I mean, you're a veteran of film festivals. I remember talking to your cast, maybe you actually for take shelter at Sundance way back when. Have film festivals been very important to your career? Yeah, they were kind of the point of entry to the marketplace, which sounds very calculating, but it was true to a degree, you know, with shotgun stories, which didn't get into Sundance,

that was my first film. We premiered at Berlin in the... forum section which was fantastic and really kind of an awakening for me as an adult and as a filmmaker and storyteller but you know I always knew you know for better and worse the first people to judge my films and maybe be the ones to decide how they enter the world were going to be festival programmers and so that wasn't lost on me on my first two films by the time I was making mud, I was making films for other, you know, like that consideration had left, I should say. Was the first time you went to film festivals, like, as a filmmaker, or had you been to

festivals prior to that? Because that's, that's an odd circumstance for many young filmmakers to suddenly be thrust into that kind of. I had really only been to one place, but it was a big one. My junior year of college at North Carolina School of the Arts, I got an internship with Kodak in the American Pavilion and was able to go over to the KAN. Film Festival. I waited tables at the American Pavilion, and it was really important. There have been a few moments in my life

where the idea of becoming a filmmaker started to come down to earth a little bit. Getting into film school was one. Getting into the directing program of that film school was another, and going to Cannes was one, because, you know, one, you get to put on a tuxedo and go see a film,

the palais and you're like, this is, this is honoring cinema in this really beautiful, elegant way. And, uh, but then also, you just got to see people and it demystified it for me, um, a little bit. It was interesting how it elevated cinema. Yep. And it humanized it. Right. Humanized it. Yeah. They are the human, they're actual human beings that make this stuff. A hundred percent. And, and those are those, I needed those for, for for better or worse. Growing up in Arkansas, we didn't have any connections to the, to the, to the film industry, really. You know, a movie called Slingblade

got made there, and that was important. But I wasn't involved in it in any way. And so, you know, these kind of milestones were important. And really, though, I mean, just like, the most expensive films that I had ever been on was mud, you know, the day that I showed up. And my AD cast Donovan came up to me with my per diem. and I remember saying, asking, do you need receipts back for this?

And she just looked at me like, bless your heart. Well, I would venture to say the markers keep coming no matter how far you go into a career because I feel like bike riders is another one. I think it's the biggest budget you've worked with on a film. By far. Right? Yeah, I was surprised to see that Midnight Special was not actually. Midnight Special had been the biggest.

Yeah. This is like double that thing. Not quite, but close. You know, we're, you know, we wanted it to be closer to the midnight special budget, but through lots of different things, you know, it kind of kept creeping up. And luckily, New Regency, our studio stuck with us, you know, because they could have just at some point been like, eh, you know. Well, I would imagine, as they started to see this come together and see the script and then to see, I mean, we could just talk about this cast and I do want to talk about this cast because it must have felt insane to be on set. You've worked with amazing casts over your career, but to look around to see who you've assembled,

some familiar faces, many new faces to you. Was that always the intention just to like, I mean, you obviously always want to cast the shit out of a movie? No kidding, but like, what was the intent? What was like kind of the mission statement of how you wanted to cast us? But also, you know, like there have been a lot of these movies lately, and it can sometimes backfire on you, you know,

to have like every role. Takes you out of that. Yeah, it does. And so, so honestly, that was kind of in the back of my head, little bit, but I've been very fortunate that actors seem to want to work with me. And so I get to, I get to, you know, communicate with them and figure it out. I'd been thinking about this movie for so long and, you know, had been collecting these wonderful guys to work with. I was like, well, I'm making a motorcycle gang movie. Like, I'll get to cast all you guys. And then it took

so long to make a lot of the younger guys in the club, I had to go find new guys. Right, was Mike ever going to do a different role, like in this one? No, Mike was always going to be Zipko, because I had, you know, heard... This is the great, or my spirit animal, Michael Shannon. Michael Shannon, who's been in all six of my films, luckily. And, you know, I'd heard some original audio recordings of this man, Zipko, who was chronicled in the book of photography, and he sounded just like Mike. Because if you get the chance, Mike is a bit of a chameleon with his voice, but if you hear him speaking in Chicago accent, because he grew up there, partially, it sounded just like this guy.

And so that was kind of locked in for me. But I really wanted to work with Shea Wiggum again, who I haven't had a chance to work with since Take Shelter. He was working on Mission Impossible, you know, so inevitably things happen. But then, yeah, for some of the younger guys, I remember I'd met Boyd Holbrook, gosh, almost a decade earlier when we were casting Midnight Special. And I talked to him about a role in that, and then he couldn't do it. He got another opportunity and couldn't do that. But we'd kind of stayed in touch, you know, and we knew of one another. And then he had had this great rise in his career, but Boyd came back around.

But then there are these faces that I didn't know, you know, like Damon Harriman. He's amazing. He's fantastic, yeah. Who just, I just fell in love with, you know. And, you know. It's kind of like the right-hand man for Tom Hardy's character. Absolutely. And has the very interesting honor of playing Charles Manson twice, which reflects none of his personality. He's the kindest human being. But then Bo Knapp, Carl Gloosman, Emery Cohen. And then, you know, you've got Toby Wallace, who, you know, for lack of a better term, kind of plays our villain. But my producing partner, Brian Cavanaugh Jones, was like, you've got to watch this movie, Baby Teeth. Have you seen Baby Teeth? it actually. I'm going to go watch it tonight.

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It brought me to tears, and Toby is magnetic in it. He's magnetic. and so I saw it you know I kind of you know we sought him out that character right when I was watching I'm like are you a De Palma fan like Curlito's Way that had a little bit of like that kind of oh 100% Beni Blanco kind of out of Newark is coming back for you right yeah yeah don't insult Benny Blanco that's the wrong one. Danny Blanco from the Bronx yeah yeah yeah like 100% you know but but he's got this he's got something very interesting I think Toby's going to have an amazing career yeah and I'm

excited to be a part of it. Before we get to like kind of then obviously the bigger names that folks will be familiar with, you mentioned this has gone way back and this is inspired for those that don't know by photography primarily. I mean, um, so, so was this fully formed in your head for 15 years? Like, how did this kind of like turn into what it became? Not at all. fully formed. In fact, I was terrified of it probably for a decade. But I found the book in 2003, so we can officially call it 20 years. It was sitting on the floor of my brother's apartment in Memphis. My brother Ben's in a band called Lucero. He's the oldest of the three brothers in my family.

And he's just always been the cool one, always playing the coolest music, listening to the coolest music, reading the coolest books. And I walked into his room and there's this beautiful cover. It was actually a 2003 reissue of the book, which I didn't know at the time. And there's a big red, bold, bright red stripe at the bottom with white lettering. The bike riders knocked out in kind of Helvetica, a real simple font. And on the top is this beautiful black and white photograph of these four motorcycle riders kind of cresting a hill on a rural highway. And I just, I was in, honestly, from the cover.

But you start looking at these photographs. And, you know, Danny has a way of embedding himself in a subculture. and so he gets these really personal photographs from people. But what I found really interesting was the text in the book, which there's not a lot of it, were transcribed interviews. And they really just read like monologues. Rarely do you have Danny's voice coming in even to have a question because he found these people that love to talk.

And Danny was very good at what he did and was able to ingratiate himself to the point to where they would just open up. And you have a woman like Kathy who just off the page, she she's compelling you know i mean she's both manic and insightful and dangerous and sometimes you can't believe she's saying what she's saying and um but it's but it's all honest right and when you combine those words with the photos it's like this complete picture of a subculture one of the most honest portrayals of kind of working class people that I had ever encountered. And that's what got me.

And it does be, I mean, I'm sure you've heard people mention this. I don't know if it came up in the crafting of the story of production, but Goodfellas has been cited. And it kind of, and I can see it because it's like it's a seductive subculture kind of world, a dangerous world that you are drawn into right from the get-go in the audience. You kind of have this really fascinating vantage point through Kathy primarily, kind of our narrator. But yeah, you have this kind of, I can see from a filmmaking standpoint, like, yes, you have this amazing, the visuals of this gang, this, this, the, it's, it's, it's, it's

mana from heaven to kind of like, you know, have 25 motorcycles and outfit these guys up to wazoo. But then you have these really interesting themes about, and I heard you talk about this a little the other day, like, it's a really movie about finding your place. Like, we're all looking for like a group to feel like you belong, to find your identity. And did that resonate with you from the start as like what that's kind of like the key theme you're playing with here? Yeah. Well, let me split this in two. And I'm going to go back to Scorsese for a second and Goodfellas because it's in my DNA. My junior year of college, my roommate had a DVD player, but we only had two DVDs. One was Fletch, which stands as one of my favorite films of all time. And the other was Goodfellas. So you were either in a Fletch mood or a Goodfellas mood. And I've just always marveled at the structure of that film. Because if anyone were to ask, like, what's the plot of Goodfellas? You know, you'd be like, ah, some guys that. that pulled off the Lufthansa heist, and that would in no way tell you what that movie's about.

Right. And that first hour of that film, I think, is probably one of the greatest narrative constructs in terms of storytelling that I've ever seen. Certainly in terms of building a very specific subculture, you know, clothes, voices, food, sound, behavior, thinking, like all of these things. and so that was that was on my mind

if you're going to pick a model that is the best yeah I mean the opening line of your movie could have might as well have been like for as long as I've been alive I've wanted to be in the vandals could have been Benny saying that

a hundred percent and I'm and I'm fully willing to stand in front of the firing squad and say like this is a shaggy dog version like doesn't bother me whatsoever I was I've been lucky enough to be introduced to Scorsese

and have a couple of conversations with him and I haven't spoken to him about this film and I haven't shown it to him. I'm real curious if he just turns down and it's like, huh, you've been paying attention. But anyway, so set that aside for a second. But the thing I want people to notice, because I think it's a little

surface just to say like, oh, there's a freeze frame and some voiceover and it's Scorsese with a music hit, because that's not it. That's not only it. That's obviously part of it, but it's the narrative structure of that first hour. If you really, if you really care and you really want to think about,

it. Go think about that because that's where I broke my back trying to to craft a narrative that was both conventional and unconventional that felt that could flow easily from scene to scene. You watch that first hour of Goodfellows and it just flies by. Right. There's no there's no break. Yeah. But but also there's no real plot. You're just you know. Well you're being seduced into that world. A hundred percent. And that's what Kathy's happening too. Yeah. It's very important to us. So we'll set that aside for a second, not talk the entire time about that. Because you were talking about identity, you were talking about... Feeling like you belong to feeling like you belong. I mean, you know, I think right now, more than ever in my lifetime,

like we are so desperate for identity. Like it's a, it is a animating force in our lives right now. And, you know, it feels more important to people, whether it's through sex, race, religion, heritage, you know, we're trying to dig deep. Partly because we're getting further than for the disconnected as a society. Everybody talks about that. I don't need to go into that. But because we are a social species, we gravitate toward groups. And in this search for identity, the group that we choose oftentimes, you know, is what grants us that identity.

And the more unique the group is, the more unique the identity. identity is. And that's the case here. This was this very seductive, dangerous group. And, you know, a lot of times by joining that group, that can be a very positive force in your life, or it can be a very negative one. And the bike riders is a bit of both. Oh, totally. And when thinking about that and looking at kind of this cycle, I was struck by this thing that I think happens a lot in society, which is people don't feel like they belong in the mainstream, so they're pushed to the outside, or they move to the outside. And that's where the most interesting things are always created. But because they're so interesting, it then draws the attention of the mainstream.

And that was certainly happening to biker culture in the 60s, to the point to where it started to become an affectation of itself. It's a cycle that I very much saw in the mid-90s in Little Rock Arkansas, believe it or not, Little Rock Arkansas had a really great homegrown punk rock scene. I was too preppy and too stupid. I played drums in a couple of bands, but my brother kind of got me in to the cool kids table. But I got to witness it. And as soon as you start to try to define this thing, because it starts as a feeling. It's just a vibe and kind of a desire to dress a certain way and and listen to a certain type of music or behave a certain type of way. But then you start putting rules on it.

Then inevitably that starts to come and that's, it's undoing. And those rules end up becoming the thing that destroy it. And I saw that pattern in the 90s and I saw it when I started looking at the bike riders. And I remember I went through this very long speech that I've just given you to the first time I met Danny Lyon. And he paused and he goes, hmm. So you don't want to make a movie about a photographer? I mean, he's in there. It's just not his story.

Another time, Danny. We wouldn't have it without you. Yeah. Danny Lyons a brilliant, brilliant man. Mike Feist, fantastic. I feel very lucky to have gotten to know him. And Mike Feist did us a massive silent by showing up and really playing an observer, you know, in this film, which is a, you know, because Mike, Mike is an incredible actor. and for him to come, be quiet, and listen. It was so valuable to me.

Okay, so back to some of these actors because we've left some of my favorites on the table. Jody Comer's already getting justifiable raves for this. We know she's a transformative actor, but what she does in this is pretty remarkable. Do you remember seeing what she was doing? Was there like a back and forth, or was that fully formed her accent to everything

from day one on the set? You know, it's easy to listen to filmmakers talk about their actors and hyperbole creeps in pretty often. She's one of the best actors I've ever worked with, and I've worked with some of the best actors in the world. I just have. We're just going to, you know, like, let's throw humbleness out that window. Like, I didn't really know her work very well.

I'd seen the last duel because I wanted to see anything that Adam Driver's in, who's a friend. Right. And she was great, but pretty subdued in that role. And it wasn't until Francine Maisler, my casting director was like, you got to talk to Jody. You got to talk to Jody. That I went and watched the first two seasons of Killing Eve and was like, okay, huh, okay. There's a lot going on there because that's kind of a, you know, there's a big.

There's a big range, you know, happening there. And so then I zoomed with her and she said yes, because I kind of went into. that Zoom with Francine in my ear going like you just have to get her you have to get her you know and at that point I'm like all right let's roll the dice let's go um fortunately for me she said yes but you never really know because you haven't worked with somebody and there's not a ton of work you know right um to base your your opinion off of and I was lucky enough to be on the jury for can two years ago and I was flying back through London and I was actually stopping off to to meet Tom Hardy in person for the first time and talk about possibly him playing Johnny.

And that was a wild meeting because he's the most intense person I've ever met in my life. So we can talk about that in a second. But I came out of that meeting. It was like three or four hours and I was a bit punch drunk, to be honest. But that night I had a ticket to Jody's play Prima Fasci on the West End. And I went to see this hour and 45 minute one woman show. no one else is on stage and I walked out of that theater

and I was like I'm the luckiest director in the world and I felt from that moment on that I just had this this ace up my sleeve and you're like just wait till Jody gets here just like wait till Jody gets here and she's such a hard worker

you know we got all of the original audio recordings that Danny made and I actually had some of them when I was writing the screenplay so I had heard these voices and I'd heard this woman Kathy's voice which is phenomenal and anybody that thinks like it's not accurate like just wait we're going to release some of it

like it is so spot on what she has done and one day she left set and she left some of her work behind and I noticed because she has so many lines in this film she had phonetically broken down every word that she says and it's one thing to do that work but then it's another to make it disappear and become invisible and we just sat there I mean I talked to Mike Feist about it

like who grew up in Ohio and after one take he pulled me aside and he was like I just felt like I was in my aunt's kitchen in Columbus Ohio you know like watching her smoke cigarettes and talk it just you know we were just kind of mouth agape so you know yep Jody's badass Jody is the real deal. And then you, you know, you combine that with Austin Butler, which...

So where was he at then? Had Elvis already... Had you seen Elvis? Did you know... How did you know? Elvis wasn't out yet when I met him for the first time. Again, my producing partner, Brian Kavanaugh-Jones had said, I guess the script had started to circulate a little bit,

and his agent called, and I think he had read it and was really into it. And they were like, you got to meet, got to meet Austin. And I will say I had a bit of a cheat sheet because the trailer for Elvis had come out. So I just saw these snippets enough to be like, oh, that guy's doing some work. Like there's some stuff happening, you know, like when he's got the overweight makeup on and he's like, you know, trembling on the floor and sweating. So I met him out in L.A. I'm not out there very much, but we met at a restaurant.

And I met him out front and he walked up and he held his hand out. And I just immediately was like, he's got it. This is the guy. He's soft-spoken, intense. Like, he's, like, dedicated. He's just, and he's beautiful. And, like, and often what I... You shoot him like a movie star.

Like, like, opening stuff. He's a movie star in the best sense. Yeah. And, and because sometimes I think people use that as a, almost as a slight. And this is, no, no, no. This is, this guy lights, lights up the rooms that he's in. And I've, I've been around a lot of famous people at this point. And it's, he's got it.

He's got it. And I needed this character. I needed people to understand why Jody's character and Tom's character would invest so much in him, would want so much out of him, which of course, that's the tragedy because his character's incapable of holding

what those people need from him. But you never question, I think, in the film why they're so drawn to him. Physically, yes, but even more than that. Like you want to, you want to be around this person. And I felt it from the first second, I shook his hand. So most intimidating moment with Tom Hardy. I mean, I feel the same way from my end. Like this guy, you don't know what you're going to get. He's just so, he's unique. There's no one like him. Well, the truth is

now with hindsight, like he's a sweetheart. Right. And I consider him a friend, you know, which I'm very proud of. And because it felt like I worked at that, you know. It feels like he doesn't of his trust easily. But once you're in, you're in probably. I hope so. Right. I do feel like, and I don't think I'm at this level, but he strikes me as the type of person that if you were his friend and you called him and you needed help, he would get on a plane and literally come that second. He strikes me as that type of person. He's a very passionate person. So I went to his home and he was just so intense. He was just rapid fire, all these questions. And I was jet lagged. I'd just gotten done with the Cannes Film Festival. And I was

trying my best. And I got a few, you know, I felt like I held my own and I made a few comments that landed with him, you know, some questions that he had. Because he was, he was right. He was like, can I play Kathy? Because Kathy's characters is really fully realized on the page. And Johnny's character was a bit more amorphous. Like it took, it was more like, honestly, the characters I typically write, where it's going to take someone to show up. Because I leave so much, you know, unspoken very much on purpose it's my style of writing and storytelling and he and he was I think questioning it especially because he's looking on the page and seeing Kathy and he's like I don't see Johnny quite as clearly I'm like well yeah that's that's why I'm here talking to you

and and luckily I didn't embarrass myself in that meeting and but I swear it was like taking an AP exam or something like I just felt I had to be totally on my toes he's very very hyper-intelligent, very intense. And then we start working together on set, you know, and it's funny. You have some actors that if you let them, if you gave them extra takes all day, they would take them, you know. Tom, it's like three takes, you know. And because he kind of shows up and he's like, this is what I'm, this is what I'm doing.

And, and, but it was beautiful to watch. I mean, and it kind of goes back to the thing we were saying about Austin, there's just some people that when they're on camera, you can't take your eyes off of it. And it's almost like there's an nearly imperceptible vibration coming out of Tom Hardy's skin. Like he literally vibrates. And so then when you cast him in a character that's holding all of that in,

I mean, so much of this film is about the inability of men to enunciate themselves. his character specifically. There's a scene after one of his friends dies. Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom. Well, big news to share it, right? Yes, huge, monumental, earth-shaking. Heartbeat, sound effect, big.

Maitz is back. That's right. After a brief snack nap. We're coming back. We're picking snacks. We're eating snacks. We're raiding snacks. Like the snackologist we were born to be.

Mates is back. Mike and Tom, eat snacks. Wherever you get your podcast. Unless you get them from a snack machine, in which case, call us. How does love work exactly? What makes something funny? How does noise affect your health? These are just a sample of the fascinating topics we discuss on my podcast, Something You Should Know.

We bring you leading experts on topics important to you, things you can use in your life and that will fascinate you. We deliver three episodes a week and have over a thousand episodes available to listen. So get listening to Something You Should Know, wherever you get your podcasts. And he's trying, you can tell, like he's struggling, he's drunk, and he's trying to get somewhere. And he just can't, like, he can't close the loop, you know. And there's a conversation later that he has with Kathy, and it's very similar. And Jody just gives this killer look where she kind of like smiles and, nods her head like I because she keeps asking him like what do you need and he can't he and she

she it's like she just realizes like you're not going to get there right you're just not in your DNA it's not it's not going to get there and who better for that than than tom you know okay it's official we are very much in the final sprint to election day And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances. It can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with. I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the daily podcast from ABC News. And every morning, my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand, with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day.

So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Taking a step back kind of on the macro view of the career. So we're six movies in and it's a very diverse resume you've crafted and I've followed it very closely through the years and I love it all. But I also know that you, you know, you talked about your reference points. They're very similar to mine and I know you, I think you were a comic book fan growing up

And there was talk of Aquaman very briefly at one point. And there was talk of alien nation. I remember you were developing at one point. And like, you know, I'm of a split mind. I'm like, I'll let Jeff do his thing. I don't want him to do his original stuff. But I also, you know, I'm intrigued because I know you're a fan and I know you got the chops.

Like, what's your attitude right now about getting into, you know, to reduce it to IP, to work in that realm? It really doesn't interest me that much. You know, on the alien nation, front, like that was a heartbreaker. That's one of the reasons it's taking me so long to make another film. I spent like four years on that. And we were at the one yard line. I had it cast. We were ready to go. But the universe didn't want me to make that right then. And it's kind of interesting because that was an original story I'd crafted and they wanted to put the alienation title on it. And unfortunately now that script without the title has gone over to Paramount. And oh, is that the one that's being talked to that? You're still working on. Yeah, like after the strike. you know, lifts, I can get back to work on it. And, and it's, you know, it's kind of amazing working on something for so long because I built this entire, you know, alien species and all these other things.

But it also takes place in Arkansas, and it actually feels like one of my films. But it might cost a lot of money. So it might be the worst experience in my life, I don't know, but I'd love to make that film. but it's just like all these things like everybody thinks the I guess the palette so diverse which is flattering but they all feel like mine no of course yeah I guess if you reduce it down to genre if you're like oh wait this is yeah and I love bouncing around genre I think genre is the is the capsule that the that the medicine goes in you know and and and it's what we it's why we enjoy movies you know like I not to get too heady about it but I feel like over the last five years we've devalued movies through streaming and other things like the experience of having to wait

for a film and really just wanting to go see a film whether it's genre or not but most of the time when we were growing up we're about the same age I assume like those were genre films and and so I have no I have a desire

to make a film like that you know and that's what that film could be Do you have to start over with casting? Yeah, we'll probably start over with casting. But maybe not, we'll see. Well, I mean, Mike's in it. Yeah, I was going to say, that's spoiler.

Michael Shannon will be in the... Until he finally, like, gets smart, and he's like, get rid of this guy. But, yeah, you know, but I dabbled. I dabbled with, you know, John Krasinski called me about maybe doing a quiet place prequel, which, you know, luckily that didn't work. I just wasn't the right fit, you know?

Did you sense that in your bones As you were working on it? Are you still like a writer on that? No, no, no. They took it over and I'm sure they did something really special with it Because that Michael Sarnaski took it over And that guy's, I think, a really great filmmaker. Yeah, yeah, fantastic.

And so, you know, they'll do something great. Right. But, yeah, like stuff like that wasn't the right fit. And the power that you have, the only power that you have as a filmmaker is your ability to sense those things and say, yeah, I'm just going to step back. I'm going to step back from this

and hopefully the universe is watching out for you. Yeah, I just imagine the alternate reality when like, you know, eight years ago you stuck with Aquaman and Jeff Nichols is making Aquaman three now. I still have some scenes from that in my head that would have been good. They would have been quite different

from the film that was made. What was your pitch? What was your idea for Aquaman? Well, it wasn't ever feasible, you know. But I liked the older Aquaman like when he had a harpoon for a hand. Like, because he was a fallen king and his son had died, he was in mourning. Obviously, just from this brief pitch, you can see it.

It would have sold hundreds of dollars worth of tickets. And Michael Shannon is Aquaman. Are you guys in? No, no. But, you know, anyway, no, those, that stuff's just kind of fun to noodle on. But, you know, and nobody needs to beat this horse. But, like, you know, we got a lot of those movies. movies now. Right. And so, um, so there are a lot of stories in the world. And, and it's okay,

spend some time telling some other ones. The last movie you were inspired by, have you seen anything here besides your own work or have you? I just saw Daddyo last night. I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was wonderful. Um, I'm actually, Sean Penn with a nice, meaty role again. Man, I love Sean Penn so much. I want to work with that guy so bad. I wanted MMM, you know, and bike riders it had crossed, crossed my mind, you know, but we got engaged with Tom, so I never even, you know, had the opportunity because Tom kind of was first up for us in that role. But, you know, Indian Runner at close range, these films were real formative for me. And, yeah, the idea of working with Sean Penn that's on the

bucket list, you know. And so I loved watching him in that film. I'm doing a Q&A later. They asked me to host a Q&A for Anatomy of a fall. So they sent me a link early in the week. I'm going to go back and see it properly in the theater today. I mean, that's pretty spellbinding. And I hope to see Wildcat tomorrow morning. Ethan's film about Flannery O'Connor. I'm just obsessed with Flannery O'Connor.

And it's so funny. Every time Ethan Hawke makes something, I'm like, that's exactly what I'm interested in. Yeah, I can see you guys be. I'm obsessed with Paul Newman. and I'm obsessed with Blaise Foley. Like, what else? What else am I interested in, Ethan?

Tell me what's next. Exactly. So, yeah. You know, we'll see. I mean, I don't, it's a little frustrating because I, you know, you don't do Q&As after every film. You just do intros. And since they cross-program, I might, like, I can't go see poor things tonight. Right.

I really want to see Pablo Lorraine's film. Pablo and I kind of became friends on the award circuit with Loving. and that film just looks haunting and magical and that guy's so freaking talented and smart. But you could throw a rock and hit a talented filmmaker in this town. Yeah, it's easy to be inspired in a place like Tell You Ride. And I'm glad it gave us a chance to rendezvous in a weird yoga studio on Main Street. If you couldn't tell, I'm a long-time fan, I'm happy.

You were able to do the podcast. You've brought so many great films into the world. You've brought some of the actors. You brought me Jessica Chastain and Mike back when I met them. take shelter, keep doing what you're doing. We don't need you for Aquaman. We need you doing your own thing. Fair enough. Fair enough. And I'm glad we're giving everybody like a sneak peek at bike riders. This one is really special and I hope you're feeling good. And I would imagine there's like an exhale after a moment like this. It's a big exhale, but I'm pretty darn

excited, you know. I just want people to see it. I'm real proud of it. And, you know, I had a feeling when I picked that book up. And I tried to make a movie that give people that feeling and so that's what I'm hoping for it's great stuff man thanks again for this all right thanks man and so ends another edition of happy sad confused remember to review rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts I'm a big podcast person I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh American history is full of infamous tales that continue to captivate audiences, decades or even hundreds of years after they happened. On the infamous America podcast, you'll hear the true stories of the Salem Witch Trials

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