Happy Sad Confused - Jeremy Allen White

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Don't be fooled into thinking Jeremy Allen White's is an overnight success story. He's been putting in the work for years and now he's reaping the rewards. He joins Josh to chat about his career from SHAMELESS and THE BEAR to playing the boss himself, Bruce Springsteen. UPCOMING EVENTS Brendan Fraser 11/18 in NYC -- ⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why are so many dogs struggling with health issues, and even dying too soon? World famous actress and passionate animal advocate, Catherine Heigel, says the answer may be hiding right inside your dog's food bowl. She reveals that the way most kibble and canned foods are cooked can release harmful compounds that may trigger problems like stiff joints, itchy skin, bad breath, and even those dreaded mushy poops. But here's the exciting part. Heigel and her team say they have discovered canine superfoods, simple foods and herbs that could help transform your dog's health, from smoother digestion to fresher breath to more energy and mobility. And she's sharing exactly what every dog owner needs to know in a free short video.

If your dog licks their paws, eats grass, has tummy troubles, or just isn't acting like they used to, you need to see this. Watch Catherine Heigel's free video now at hscpet.com. That's hsc pet.com. Your dog's health will thank you. When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best hapice in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex.

Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca.com. I've reached some kind of other level after I've had two kids. Yes. After my life has gotten very big and my concerns have changed and what matters to me really has changed and so I feel very lucky in a lot of ways that, you know, my life feels a lot bigger than this and I have to imagine those younger actors, performers, artists, whatever who hit it really big at 16, 17, 18, 19.

I have to imagine it. It's got to be very confusing and difficult, you know. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, another first-time guest and a hell of an actor, Jeremy Allen White,

talking Bruce Springsteen, the Bear, Star Wars, and so much more. Hey guys, thanks as always for tuning into Happy Second Feas, watching, listening. However you're consuming this, I appreciate you guys. You can hear Lucy or see Lucy snoring a little bit behind me, so I'll keep it a little quiet. But this is a really cool one. Jeremy's been on the list for quite a while, as you might imagine, from Shameless, especially in The Bear coming into his own as an actor.

And now taking his talents to the big screen with some really cool. opportunities. Really sweet guy. I think you guys are going to enjoy this conversation, and he absolutely kills it, as Bruce Springsteen talk about a high degree of difficulty, and he really, really delivers. Before we get to all of that, some reminders. We do have some live events coming up. I want to tease.

And as always, you can check out all of our stuff on Patreon. And by the way, we are just like, we are jamming with so many episodes, three a week right now. It's not going to last forever. I kind of like to go back to two. even one a week from my sanity at some point, but right now, just an embarrassment of riches. So patreon.com slash happy, say, confused, now more than ever, really is delivering because you're getting so much content, early access, the early word on upcoming guests and access to our live events, including November 18th, Brendan Fraser.

Brendan has never done the podcast. I know. I'm shocked, too. We came close on the whale. The timing just never quite clicked. And now it's finally happening. And I'm so excited. November 18th, 90 Second Street,

Y, we are screening his excellent new movie. It is called Rental Family. Very sweet movie. He delivers another fantastic performance. And speaking of sweet, he is notoriously one of the nicest guys in the business. So I'm so excited to have a big old career chat with Brendan. So come on out if you can.

As I said, discount codes are on the Patreon patreon.com slash happy sec infused or the link is in the show notes just to get tickets like a like a normal human being okay Jeremy out in wait let's talk for a second before we toss to the main event he is starring as Bruce Springsteen in this new

film Springsteen deliver me from nowhere I'm a big fan of this movie this is not your standard issue biopic this is a character study a look at a guy kind of at a really interesting juncture in his career. This is not Bruce, you know, on stage, commanding, you know, the attention of tens of thousands of people. There's a glimpse of that, but it's really about a guy wrestling with his childhood, his past, his issues with his parents in particular, his dad, but also figuring out what's next artistically. at this really interesting point

in his career. This is about really kind of the making of Nebraska, one of his seminal albums, if not the seminal work in his career. And like I said, big fan of this. And Jeremy, I mean, what can you say? The singing, the physicality,

and just the lived in performance, no surprise he delivers. Because if you've seen him do his thing on the bear and shameless in so many other things, you know he's got the goods. And I think you're going to You're going to fall in love with him in this conversation if you haven't already because just the real deal. Another sweetheart of a guy. I really enjoyed getting a chance to finally have this long in the making conversation.

So without any further ado, enjoy my chat and go see the movie. It's out in theaters Friday. I think by the time you're watching or listening to this, it should be out in theaters. See it. It's a really special one. Here's me and Jeremy Allen White. My look, it's Jeremy Allen White. Hey, how's it going?

It's good to see you buddy. It's good to see you. I appreciate the Yankee hat. I'm a big Yankee fan. Are you a big Yankees fan? Born and bred New York or Yankee fan through and through. This is funny. I'm a Mets fan and this hat has a little story.

Looks like it's been through something. Well, this has been through something. So I have a Mets hat that's been through hell and I wore it at Telly Ride. I've had it for a long time. I wear it all the time. And I saw Bruce a couple days after Telleride here in New York. And he said, I saw your hat. It was pretty beat up.

up reminded me of this hat come on and he's had this hat for like 25 30 years and and he gave to me so I've been carrying around like a little good luck charm yeah the ancillary benefits of this one I know insane they keep coming okay before we get into Springsteen you've been on the list for a while I've been chasing you so thank you for finally succumbing to my request oh my gosh yeah I'm happy to be here I've listened to the show I really like it I appreciate you yeah I've also feel like I've been circling you this week I've run into Chris Store twice oh nice yeah I hit up Austin I wanted the dirt

nice and everybody gives me nothing they're all like Jeremy's the nicest man on the planet oh man yeah they didn't give you anything huh literally yeah so I'm out of luck yeah yeah sorry is there anyone am I hitting up the wrong people would anybody say you're an asshole no I was gonna say something I mean you could talk to Abbin I'm sure he'd give you something yeah yeah yeah for sure do you get cranky on a set like do you like does no no no I don't know I mean I'm trying to think what is upsetting to me on a set what's what's pet peeves I mean, it's like, you know, it's just simple stuff, like being on time and knowing your line and, you know, all that stuff. But even still, like, no, I don't think I've ever, like, lost my cool on a set or anything.

Can I ask you a little bit about Austin for a second, just because I'm curious, because you guys are basically the same age and you just shot together relatively recently. That must be an interesting thing because it strikes me also. You've both gone through this kind of transition in your careers, a somewhat similar one in the last five years. Yeah. Is that something you guys talked about and kind of clocked? Yeah, almost immediately. You know, Austin and I had met briefly kind of prior to doing this movie together. And I've been an admirer of his for a while, and I think, you know, I hope to think vice versa.

And we almost did this job together, and it didn't work out. So we were really excited to do this one. And we got to talking kind of immediately about this sort of like work, life, balance. And I was asking about his process with Elvis because I had just finished Springsteen and he was talking about how much he gave to it. And I was kind of like, can you, you know, can you do that every time, you know?

And because I was like, because I'm struggling too with like how, you know, you want to show up and you want to give it your all, but you also need to, you need to be a person. And so, yeah, that was like something we talked about frequently, I think, is just, you know, can we do really good? good work without kind of like driving our personal lives into the ground a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about like this one. So this is Springsteen deliver me

from nowhere. Yeah. I'll say it again officially. This film's great. You're amazing. Thanks, man. Thanks for saying that. Truly, the degree of difficulty off the charts. Yeah. I don't know. When this comes to you, I know you've said like this wasn't an immediate yes, only because. Well, it's heavy, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, it's Bruce Springsteen. I know how beloved he is and rightfully so. And it's interesting, too, like, I think fans and audiences relationship to specifically musicians. It's so intimate. Yes. And it's so personal. And, you know, I didn't want to let anybody down. I didn't want to interrupt that relationship. But I think what helped was that, you know, we're not telling Bruce's whole story. We're telling an

important story and a very important period in his life yeah I think it was a real like crossroads sort of like moment for him and so that gave me some some comfort you know and and then Scott Cooper who I've admired for a really long time it's funny we met you know a couple months before I ever read the script or knew anything about it and I thought it was just kind of like a general and we just talked about about movies we liked and actors we liked and then you know I left just saying I hope we find something one day but I didn't realize he was just kind of like sussing me out the whole time and then two months later I I got the thing so he he offers it to you you say yes

like in that interim period or after you say yes like do you go to the mirror and say like do I buy this like you know I don't I'm not a doppelganger for Bruce like is that is this gonna our audience is gonna buy it am I gonna buy it totally because it's not the kind the kind of thing we're like, you know, you physically transform for Ironclaw in many ways. But like you can't really do that in the same way here. Yeah, I mean, there are conversations, you know, there's conversations. Did you go down the road about like, yeah, like altering. I talked about, yeah, kind of like putting something in my mouth to maybe get my like jaw out or, you know, and we did the contacts and, you know, we were talking about wigs and all this stuff.

And then it just got so busy. And I was just like, okay, maybe the best route, you know, is an internal one, and then we can see, you know, what that does for us, you know, externally, ultimately, you know. Well, I mean, it does come through. I mean, it's, it's, it's, and there, I'm sure there are small things that I'm not even seeing. I've seen the film a couple times, but like, there's the voice, there's the way, just you carry yourself.

Yeah, physicality. I mean, how much game tape are you watching? I can only imagine for months, you're literally on YouTube. Yeah, you know, yeah, I had about six months, you know, which is a lot of time, but not as much as you might like before you do something like this. Like I would have loved a year or more, but it's probably diminishing returns. You're going to drive yourself insane at a certain point, perhaps. You're right, you're right. But yeah, no, there's a whole lot of footage, obviously, on Bruce, a whole lot of concert footage.

Yeah. He's spoken a lot. I mean, he's been very honest, especially in the last couple decades in promoting his book, Born to Run. And obviously, like, that material in Born to Run was major. Morin's beautiful book, Deliver Me from Nowhere, which focuses on this period in time. And then there were a few performances in particular. There's one concert footage from Tempe, Arizona, that I really focused on and that I kind of watched for. the born-to-run piece at the beginning of the film,

but it was also like a, you know, there's more footage from that concert, and that was just, it was like 1980 or 1979, so that was just right in the pocket for the period that I was looking at. And then there was this great interview show, the old great whistle test. I don't know if you're familiar with that at all.

It was interviews, there were mostly like post-concert, and there was a great, like, 15-minute interview of like a 30-year-old Bruce, which is like right in the world. And so that was one I watched very frequently as well, yeah. Again, the many themes that I think the audiences are going to relate to in different levels. I mean, it's first from an artistic standpoint, it's very much a film about artistic integrity and what's important to you as an artist, which I would imagine, you know, you have to kind of define that for yourself.

I mean, when I say artistic integrity, what does that mean to you in terms of how you, we talked about how you carry yourself on a set? So that's a no-brainer. But like, what is artistic integrity when it comes to, like, crafting a career for you, you think? I think, like, you know, well, protection is one thing, you know. You're protecting your own kind of perspective and point of view constantly. And then, you know, I think I'm in a really privileged position now where kind of for the first time in my career I have some options, you know, and I have some choices to make. And I think, you know, that's where it's this like, you know, I think some actors can get a little confused. There's the question of art and commerce.

And also, you know, you listen to a lot of people saying, well, this is the next thing. And then sometimes you can trick yourself into going, oh yeah, maybe this is, even if your gut and your heart is telling you, you know what, maybe this one isn't for me. I need to be patient. I need to say no. I need to wait. You know, I think that's a big part of all. It's also very confusing because, like, the industry. has changed so quickly, like, it's like what was, like, the obvious thing to do for an actor

to, like, you know, earn your cred and, like, you know, be established. It's different now than it was five years ago. It's totally shifted. There's not the same routes either. It's a totally different, especially for, like, a young actor and, you know, it's, um, the paths are very different. It's also, like, I've had this conversation with many actors over the years, and I always find it fascinating, that transition you're talking about of, like, when you have the opportunity and, you know, to say no, like, finally. Like, because actors, 99% of actors are just taking the best thing coming at you.

Totally. For their entire career. Yeah, all the time. And this is what you've been, like, fighting for and wanted your entire life. No pressure, Jeremy. Absolutely. I mean, I have said, I have passed on things

where four years ago, I would have actually, like, killed. Right. And it's a very confusing situation where you're kind of walking around with, like, guilt and doubt almost at every, turn. It's a very strange thing, yeah. So if I had to talk to you like year eight of Shameless, like great gig, stable, great actors around you, the material's good. It's a long

gig though. At a certain point where you like maybe this is all there is, like I'm not, I don't know if I can go to another level in terms of a career. Yeah, I think I had a lot of that, you know, we did 11 seasons of that show. I was 18 when we started. I was 31. I was 31. when we finished. And I think, yeah, there was definitely a period, especially towards the end where I was like, well, maybe this is what I had to give, right? You know, and I stopped thinking of it as,

you know, I would do a film or something in the hiatus is every once in a while, but nothing that really match the sort of like size and reach of shameless ever. And yeah, I had this concern that, you know, Am I an actor anymore or am I like clocking in a little bit now? And I think it started to feel a bit like a job. And that was scary because, you know, that's never what you want this to feel like, you know.

Hello, Ben. And the embellage, too beau, who is practically pre-a-donned. And I know that I should have the Summer Fridays and

Rare Beauty by Salina Gomez. I'm just great. The most ensemble the gift of the show to see

Shepora. Summer Fridays, Rare Beauty, Way, Cepora Collection and other parts of Vite. Procurry

you see form standard and mini, regrouped for a better quality price. On link on Cepora.

Or in MacGasin. That's annoying. What? You're a muffler. You don't hear it? Oh, I don't even notice it.

I usually drown it out with the radio. How's this? Oh, yeah, way better. Save on insurance by switching to Bel Air Direct and use the money to fix your car. Bel Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. So, okay, we're going to bounce around a little bit

since we have the luxury of time. I'm going to go back to the beginning. You're a New York kid. Yep. Parents instill a lot of love in the arts for you. I mean, film and TV or just generally museums, the whole thing. Yeah, generally, you know, my folks, They were actors.

That's how they met. They lived on the Upper West Side, and my dad saw my mom in a show and went out and got her flowers in her mission, and they got together. They're the flowers. There's the flowers. There's the flowers. Exactly, exactly. This is like a therapy session.

I just unlocked something for you. We're figuring it out. You're welcome. We're figuring it out. Thank you. But yeah, you know, fast forward a little bit. They, you know, they got pregnant. We moved to Brooklyn when I was born there.

And they had to figure out jobs, you know, that could pay the bills and support some kids. And so they weren't acting anymore. But there was, yes, always like a respect, interest, passion, you know, for that stuff. So if I saw you, like, your bedroom walls and, like, at 14 or 15, did you have movie posters up? Were there actors you were already getting obsessed with? Like, what were the first kind of? Yeah, that was like, that was like, Scorsese. and mean streets and Goodfellas and PTA and boogie nights and like that was you know that was that

time for for sure yeah did you that must have been something then to get to know Macy at some point the PTA connection did you at some point like year three start to like I asked him immediately and he gave me nothing it was so upsetting I was like what can you tell me about Paltana Sanderson like I'm so excited you were so great magnolia and boogie nights and da da and he was like Oh, he's great. Come on. I was like, come on, man, I'm 18.

I'm so excited. But, no, he wouldn't give it to me. Have you seen the new PTA yet? I haven't seen it yet. I think you're going to love it. I know. I'm just hearing so many. It's so funny.

I keep going to like, like I saw Ebber and Io the other night and they had both seen it. And I feel like they were angry. I was hanging out with them because all they wanted to do was discuss it. Right. And I was ruining.

Yeah, I would like go to the bathroom and they'd like fit in as much as they could. I think especially as a PTA fan and a girl dad. Yeah. It's going to be a big one, huh? It's going to be a big one for you. Okay, I'm excited.

Have you ever met PTA? Have you had that meeting? No, I have not had that meeting. I've seen him around. You know, I live in the valley, and that's where he grew up, obviously, and I think he lives somewhere around there, because I see him at this restaurant near my house occasionally, but I always, he's like reading the paper, and I'm like, you know, I won't. Too much.

Invade that space, yeah. So, do you remember, like, when you start to act professional? in your teens like was there a first name actor or name filmmaker that was exciting for you to work with like do you who are the first kind of like people of note that you clocked and maybe learn something from I think like Pachino is huge for me that was also my like my acting teacher in high school that was kind of his guy and and and and the Puccino had his start in theater and that's kind of where I thought I was going to exist, I guess, for a long time. I think my hope was, you know,

I'll get out of high school, I'll be able to do a player to maybe like a cool, you know, independent film. And I'd been really lucky. I, you know, my first movie was this movie with Antonio Campos, who I love, and he had this, him and Sean Durkin and Josh Mond had this collective borderline films. And so I was like, I'll do some plays. I'll do a movie with those guys. And I'll do like three episodes of Law and Order. Which you did, I think.

And yeah, and that'll be my year every year. And that was kind of my, that was my hope. Are you simultaneously, I guess this is before, shameless of course, like are you doing, I don't even know if pilot season was like, it's heyday then, but are you going to L.A. And going up for kind of like, Because here's the thing that strikes me, like,

Shameless is such a lucky break in that, like, you could have been on something for seven, eight years that was kind of devoid of any, like, artistic memory. Like, you could have just been caught into the gears of that system. Yeah, yeah. And it just so happens, shame was a really cool one. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was also, you know, I was with a smaller agency,

and, I mean, they were lovely, but, you know, they would send me out for everything, and I was already very kind of, like, discerning. Yes. And they were like, what business do you have? You're saying no to, like, it's not a yes or no situation. You haven't even been invited to the party. Like, you can't say no.

And I was like, yeah, but I don't think one's for me. I've done three episodes of Law and Order. Exactly. So I think I'm good, guys. Exactly. So I wouldn't audition a lot. And they were probably going to drop me at some point soon. But I would occasionally go to Los Angeles and do that, like, testing.

Like stay in that hotel and near Universal City and test for something. And then, yeah, eventually it was. shameless but but before then I I worked at Susan Shopmaker casting for a long time I'm here in New York so I was going to school and I was working at Susan Shotmaker casting she had put me in after school when I was 16 and then I worked as a as a reader really for a long time see the other side of things yeah with Susan yeah yeah were there any auditions along in those years that whether you got the part or not that really made an impact on you just getting in

the room having the experience of meeting a filmmaker you admired that stand out yeah I mean I remember addition for it was a very small part in the assassination of Jesse James and and so I got to meet you know Andrew Dominic Dominic yeah and that was a really big one for me I had loved his first film with Eric Bonna yes we're both blanking oh no oh no some chopper you got yes and so I was really excited for that one and you Yeah, like other, I'm sure there were other great kind of directors in the beginning there that I got in the rooms with, but that one comes to mind, yeah. So you get shameless. Is that an exciting? Do you see the opportunity of that immediately? Was it as exciting as it seemed on paper to get it?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had been obviously a fan of Bill Macy's for such a long time, and so I felt with him at the helm. That was huge. John Wells has, you know, he's such a legend in television. So I was really excited that he was doing. it. Mark Milod directed the pilot who has gone on now to do like, you know, Succession. He's doing the Harry Potter series and he made a great film, the menu. But at the time, all he had done was Entourage and that was a show in high school that I was very engaged with. So yeah, it was like across the board, very exciting. And the material, you know, I watched the English series. I really loved the English series. I had so much fun, especially in the first four, five years. had like a blast on that show.

That must have been your first experience also in like encountering some degree of celebrity and people almost, I don't know, did people confuse you with the character? Did you find people were encountering you as lip as much as Jeremy out in the wild? And is that, was that a wake-up call in some ways? Yeah, but I think I wanted them to when I was young.

In a way, like I think I was like, I was, I don't know, projecting all the time, like a version of myself that was probably a bit further away from me than I knew at the time, but now in retrospect, I'm able to go, oh, that really wasn't me. I was just kind of trying to do this thing for a long time. What were you trying, tell me more,

what were you projecting you think? I don't know, I think, you know, at the time, you know, I was so into like, I was really into Sean Penn and Pacino and Niro and all these guys. And from what I'd gathered, I mean, I know that they care so much about their art, but all the rest of it they seemed

so kind of like beyond it and I think I tried to get a little bit of that like devil may care sort of deal but I did care like so much the true acting performance was burying that all the way down

and being too cool for school yeah I think so yeah there was something like that going on in my early 20s and late teens for sure that's a yeah I think for someone in their 20s that's like a little artistic insecurity of kind of overcompensation totally. I forgive myself. Yes, we forgive you too. Thank you. So you've talked about this before. I mean the transition out of Shameless, which is this giant period of your life, and literally a transition from like a young man to a man. For sure, yeah.

This pivot point coming out of that and into the bear is kind of like an existential, artistic human crisis you kind of had to like get through a little bit. I don't know if I'm overstating it. No, not at all. Yeah. I mean, I did ADR for the last episode of Shameless at Warner Brothers. I was driving home on Mulholland, and I had to pull over because I was having a panic attack. I was so, that show was so consistent for me. I knew where I was going to be every year. I had a community and a family and people I loved and that loved me and understood me. And now I was looking into a lot of unknown. I had, you know, my oldest daughter, as he was, was two.

My youngest had just been born. And I was like, I got to, we got to keep this going, you know. and yeah, it was a difficult time, but I went kind of directly into, yeah, the bear. So, Christor, the creator of the bear, you worked with to a degree on the rental, right? Nice film that Dave Franco directed. Shout out to Dave, good guy.

Talk to me a little bit about, like, reading Carmi the first time, talking to Chris. Yeah. Sounds like it took some convincing only in that you didn't want to, like, oh, another Chicago show, another series. I think the fact that it was in Chicago is just such a...

Like, really? I'm doing this again. Of all the cities. It's a great city, but... No, it's an amazing city, but... Yeah, so the Chris thing was funny. I think I've told the story before. Maybe it's just been with people in passing.

But Chris was like a co-producer on the rental. He's good friends with Dave and was helping out. And, you know, we shot that maybe between seasons eight and nine of shameless and I didn't really know Chris we didn't talk a whole lot to each other but I saw him around and he comes up to me on one of my last week like maybe last week of shooting and he goes hey buddy what do you think you're going to be doing like two years and I was like oh like I don't I don't know I think I got a couple more years of the show I'm doing I think probably we're going to go a little bit longer he goes okay like you know what I'm going to

give you a call in two years and I'm like okay guy like yeah well this is the classic Hollywood conversation yeah absolutely yeah exactly um and to his credit two years on the dot he uh he called me we had a zoom we talked about the show and and i told him you know i'm finishing up the 11th season of shameless and i don't know if i want to jump right back into a tv show and but please send me the you know send me the script and i want to read it and it was so good and it was so rich and textured and chris is so smart and the way he spoke about it was so elegant and beautiful. But yeah, I think I was just bumping up against, you know, there was some family dynamics and traumas and then also we're in the city of Chicago and I just spent so much

time there. And so that was my only kind of hesitance during that time. But then I think I was just like, who am I to pass on something that's so rich and I need to see where this goes, I guess. Do you remember the early days on set with, like, I mean, Ebben had a bit around, but he, again, wasn't like a star in any real way, but like, you know, actors loved him. Totally. You know, Iyo, of course, people didn't really, like, know at the time. I mean, do you remember those early days? Like, do you idealize kind of like, oh, like we immediately were tapping into something. There was something those first weeks that felt special?

Yeah, it was really remarkable. I mean, it was also this funny thing where, I mean, the script was great for the pilot. But I remember we had one table read for our show, and it was for the pilot. pilot, and it did not read well. And it took like seven minutes, because everybody was like speaking so quickly and the transitions weren't clear. And so I think everybody was a little bit like, uh-oh, like, what do we, like, what do we have? But it's a credit to Chris and his direction. And also the feeling that he kind of gave us all, that feeling of, of, of excitement and And yeah, I think everybody's chemistry, and everybody's showing up and caring so much immediately.

I mean, you're right, like, you know, Liza had done theater for a very long time. She hadn't really had her moment yet. Lionel hadn't done very much. Iow hadn't done very much. Eben had done some stuff, and I had shameless in some stuff. But nobody was, like, you know, going to anchor this thing as like, oh, that's the star, you know what I mean? And but I think that made everybody show up and just be so, you know, we just took advantage and we cared so much, you know. Do you get as much as an actor out of, I mean, the show has this juxtaposition of like these like frenetic insane sequences and then these like quiet moments, just you, I like smoking can be as pointed as anything.

Yeah. Do you get something out of, out of both? It seems like the fans do. Like they like love both ends of it. Yeah, I mean, that's the rhythm of the kitchen. And I think that rung very true. And I think really, you know, early on, I spotted the parallels of making a film and getting that food out, you know. So I was familiar with that sort of like that sense of urgency, that anxiety.

You know, we're rushing to get that magic hour shot. You're looking at the clock all the time. And then there's those, you're kind of like holding your breath all the time. time. And then there's the exhale. And so much of the bear for me is like it's in breath. It's like, you know, that tightness and then that release, you know. Do you feel comfortable, essentially like our avatar of anxiety, I feel like, thanks to Karmie and even some of your other roles. It feels like we project, like, I think that's a lot of the connection that people feel in these times for this show and that character in particular. Well, it's common, isn't it,

these days to have those feelings yeah I guess you know yeah yeah I don't like do you do you look at yourself in the mirror like I have resting sad face I have resting like like people can see into me like something I don't know yeah I don't know if I hide stuff very well yeah I guess maybe that's something like I like I guess as an actor that you can do a lot without yeah sometimes yeah like I feel like it's easy to like I can get busted very easily sometimes you know like if if I'm feeling something yeah it's hard for me to uh it's hard for me to uh it's for me to hide it, I guess.

So I was, when I ran into Chris the other day, he was talking about how, like, shocking, he's still shocked about how the show has resonated and, like, the fans. I mean, it must have redefined, like, what success was. Again, like, Shameless is, by most standards, a huge successful show. Yeah, we did it for so long, yeah, totally. But this is a whole different level of cultural, you know. Yes, the significance, I think culturally was, was, yeah, remarkable. And did you feel that relatively early on, like, out in the world, Starbucks, like, did things change?

Yeah, out of the gate, you know, even in those first couple weeks, I was in New York at the time. And I felt, yeah, I felt it immediately going out. I mean, shameless was, it was such a big show, obviously. We were able to do it for so long. But I felt like it was like, I don't know, if I was walking around like Williamsburg or something, I might not get recognized that much. Or if I was walking around downtown Manhattan, I wouldn't get recognized that much. or even in L.A. sometimes, you know?

And then when the bear happened, even in those first couple weeks, I was like, oh, this is, like, people are following me around and people are really interested, and people were discovering me for the first time, which was cool, because before that, it was just shameless. And I think there was, like, a lot of people who didn't know what that show was

that found this show, you know? I assume you're like most human beings in that you eat probably two to three times a day. So you, every opportunity I feel like it's an opportunity for someone to like make some joke if you're out in public eating. It's like, yes, chef, let me show you the kitchen, let me send you over some food. Yeah. Like it's, it must be such a constant because of the nature of what people connect to on that show.

As long as I can get a reservation last minute and I get some free food, they can, you know, they can joke around as much as they like. The rest could come. Yeah, exactly. It's okay with me. Then there are the other ancillary, interesting things associated with celebrity. Like, how many friends have sent you photos of? themselves like posing in front of like Calvin Klein billboards yeah yeah for sure that was a big one I mean you know I grew up in New York that billboard you know I've

seen all the iterations all the different models celebrity and otherwise it's like it's an iconic street it's an iconic billboard yeah it was insane it felt like to have that in my city was, like, you know, was major. But it is, again, like, to my point of, like, you know, you've been doing this a minute. Yeah. And to all of a sudden be, like, regarded in this different way is, must be a bit of a mind fuck in some great ways and also some complicated ways.

Like, what have been, kind of, like, your ways of preserving yourself mentally, emotionally with, like, what is a very unusual circumstance for a human being to be, like, you know, internet boyfriend material or whatever the fuck we call this now. Yeah, I mean, there's two things, I think, you know, I'm very lucky, you know, I started acting when I was 14. Yeah. So while to many, it might seem that I got shot out of a cannon, that's not the case. It's been a very, like, gradual build. And also, you know, there was this big timepiece on Bruce Springsteen that came out a couple weeks ago.

And John Landau said this thing, talking about show business. And he said, you know, show business can be such a fun life. It can be so rewarding, but it has to be a part of a much bigger life. It can't be a substitution. Yes. And I think, you know, I've reached some kind of other level after I've had two kids. Yes. After my life has gotten very big and my concerns have changed and what matters to me really has changed.

And so I feel very lucky in a lot of ways that, you know, my life feels a lot bigger than this. And I have to imagine those younger actors, performers, artists, whatever, who hit it really big at 16, 17, 18, 19. I have to imagine it. It's got to be very confusing and difficult, you know. And I would imagine also, like, yeah, you've been through a lot, you know, personally and professionally, like, you probably couldn't have done Springsteen five years ago, like, before the bear, before what you kind of like,

from an actor perspective and a celebrity perspective, that has given you such a shift in perspective, I would imagine. Yeah, but that was, I mean, I mean, that was another reason this job was, I mean, again, Springsteen was hard to say it was hard to finally commit to, because I knew what it was going to take. I knew how demanding it was going to be, not just in the preparation, but kind of like staying close to him and somewhat close to his sort of like feeling and headspace during that time that we're portraying in the film. and I was just there was really just a you know you know that thing of I'm going to miss my kids and I'm going to miss home and it's going to be hard and I'm not going to have a lot of time to myself and and I knew that I knew it was going to take a lot and it was just about that choice like

you know can I can I forfeit these couple months and really commit myself yeah you know You know what's better than the one big thing? Two big things. Exactly. The new iPhone 17 Pro on TELUS' five-year rate plan price lock. Yep, it's the most powerful iPhone ever, plus more peace of mind with your bill over five years. This is big. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro at TELUS.com slash iPhone 17 Pro on select plans.

Conditions and exclusions apply. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with. with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no.

But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

So I do want to mention a couple of things. We've talked about working with Austin. This on paper is right up my alley, whatever you guys. Oh, it's really cool. I haven't seen much of it yet, but it's really cool movies. So, you know, reference points are like, you know, it's two characters. What is it, one cop, one of... Yep.

Cop and killer. Yep, yep. You're talking Heat on the set. You're talking Michael Mann. We're talking Melville. We're talking Suzuki. We're talking, yeah, like a real... Who's the good guy?

Who's the bad guy? Well, I don't know. You guys have to decide yourselves, but I play the cop and Austin plays the killer in the film. Amazing, amazing. You were going to be appearing in a way in the new Star Wars film. Yeah, yeah, yeah, were you a Star Wars kid? Like, how did, like, is... Yeah, I mean, yeah, I watched all the films and stuff. Yeah, absolutely, yes. But I'm not the most knowledgeable. I'm not going to put you into this. Yeah, okay, okay. That will come on that junk in. Yeah, I know, I know. I'll get ready. I'll get ready. Yeah, yeah. So, when they come to you, I don't know if Favreau reaches out and says, hey, do you want to be Jabba the

hut's son? Like, how does that, is that literally the kind of the text, email phone call? It was pretty chill the way it happened. I mean, I met John at a party. And I'd love John Favro for so long. I mean, Swingers was huge. Maid was huge. Chef is so great. Elf. I mean, he's really a legend. But Swingers and Maid, particularly in my youth, I was like, oh, wow. And he was like, do you want to do something on this movie? And you ever seen The Mandalorian? I was like, oh, yeah, it's a great show. And you do such a great job.

And yeah, I like Star Wars. Like, yeah, let's talk about it. And he made it seem very chill, you know. And he was like, you know, you're going to play a job without sun. You'll come in. You're just, it's just voice stuff. You know, we're not going to take any scans. You're not going to do any of that stuff.

And we're just coming for half a day and read some stuff. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. But they didn't, they hadn't shot any of the movie yet, really. So I'm just kind of like reading some stuff, trying to put it together. I remember calling him the night before and being like, I was watching some of the movies before getting ready, but I was like, is there anything particularly you want me to watch? Or what do you want me to like to really like learn?

Is there something I should know? And he was like, no, just come on in and, you know, do the thing. And I did. And then a year passed, and they shot the movie. And he was like, we've got some more stuff for you to do. And I think I realized that they really fleshed that character out. a little bit and I might be in more of that movie than I had I had realized originally. But I assume like the voice is, I mean, Jabba has a very specific way of speaking,

so are you doing like, you're like, oh, ho, ho, like that kind of like that whole thing? No, I was like, what kind of vocal work do you want me to do, like, do you want me to bring in? And I was doing some stuff, but he was also like, we're going to mess with it and, you know. I haven't heard the finished product, I haven't seen the film, so it's hard for me to, you know, talk about it too much but well um and then social reckoning I know you haven't shot yet you're gonna be re-teaming with Jeremy yeah Mikey Madison yes Sorkin yes this is a good group to be with a good group it's a good group that's what I look for a good group and this is the yeah this is the only thing an actor can do is surround yourself

with the best and they're gonna bring out the best than you totally so um Sorkan script reads like fire I would imagine incredible it's remarkable how how sort of how lengthy and sort of um like it should be confusing his writing sometimes, especially, you know, when he's writing about worlds that you might not be incredibly familiar with. There's a lot of information in there. There's a lot of information, yeah.

But the writing is so good that even an idiot like myself can kind of pick up on what's going on. There's not a lot of guesswork as like, well, what's going on with this character and what's happening? Everything's very clear, everything's very quick, Everything's very funny. You know, I grew up watching the West Wing with my dad.

And that was like a John Wells connection and now a Sorkin connection. I love Sorkin and I hope Jeremy and I can do a movie together every October from now on. This is a good tradition to start. Yeah. Some random stuff for you. You're a tattoo guy, yes. Sure. Are they all like connected to, are any of them connected to work?

Or is it all like family? What's the criteria at this point? It's kind of all family. I'm trying to think. Like family and love and family, yeah. I thought about, I really thought a long time about getting something for a lip when it was ending. But then I'm like, I can't, you know, I can't go down that road. Because I feel like if I start it, then, you know.

Right. What are we going to do? I mean, you get to offer everybody. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I might be done. Yeah. The first time someone sends you a meme or photo.

of you and Gene Wilder, is that like, Jesus, or like, oh, I see it. That's kind of funny. I see it for sure. And I have no, I mean, I love Gene Wilder. He's a legend. Of course. Yeah, like, I take no issue. But I do think there was something going around. I think people were convinced that I was actually related to the man, which is not, which is not the truth. Okay, let's just go ahead and say that now. Why are you denying it so much? It sounds a A little weird, yeah. So who are, give me your short list right now, like actor, filmmakers, if I could Will Into Existence, a meeting, anything, like, who are you just admiring as a film

lover right now? I mean, well, Zach Crager, I really, really loved weapons. He's, you know, obviously only made a couple films, but he's great. Palos Sorrentino, I got to meet a telly ride, which was really exciting because I've kind I've been talking about him for years. The Great Beauty is one of my Alzheimer's favorites. Andrew Arnold is one of my favorites. I love her so much,

and I'm so interested in her process. Lars, one of our producers on Enemies, has worked with her before, and I just talked to him kind of about American Honey and that process a whole lot. I talked like Barry about Bird. I feel like that was a script. Like I can get it right, it's pretty loose.

Is that a true? Have you ever worked in that way on a problem? No, and it sounds like she doesn't have like there's no schedule really. You just kind of show up in the morning and it's kind of like based around location and it's all very like free form and that sounds really exciting.

Barry, I'd love, Barry I love. He's the best. You know, I love that guy. There's so many young guys, like it's so nice. I went to go see Harris's movie at Telly Ride, Urchin, and I was sitting next to his manager. And anyway, I mean, I just,

I love that movie so much and I'm such a fan of Harris's. And it's just so nice, like, I feel like this young group of actors are so, like, I just love them and I want them to succeed and I want to do more stuff with them. And I don't know if that was always, like, how this went. No, it strikes me from the outside looking at, because I've talked to all of you guys. You've all done the podcast, Harrison, Paul Meskell. And it's, like, this really cool group that not only has, like, such good film taste that is in it for the right reasons, but also seems to be rooting each other on. Totally.

You know, it's a good crop you're in. It feels nice. Yeah, it definitely feels nice. There's, like, some cheerleaders, and everybody's each other's kind of cheerleader. Yeah, back in the day, like, Schwarzenegger and Stallone were, like, out pumping each other, like, for moving. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think, who's are, uh, yeah.

No, I don't know. You did talk about at one point. I know, like, you know, the Marvel stuff and the Blockbuster stuff always comes up. Yeah, you had a meeting for a marvelee kind of a thing. That was like, that was out of line. I was like, that was again, me sort of, you know, not being entirely invited to the party and being like, I don't even want to go anyway. But I did, yes, I had a meeting that I probably could have handled differently, for sure. And I think I was just like, I don't, first of all, I don't really know, it's not like a bag on the genre as much as it is.

like, I don't know what I can give to it, really, or how I fit into it. And also, I think there was a period where sort of like being in one of those films guaranteed, like, you can get any movie made. And if you find a script on the street and you take that around to people and you love it, you can get it made. And I just don't know if that's how it's working anymore. It's not. Yeah.

Objectively, it's not. That's what we're saying. The playing field has changed so much in the last five, ten years. Totally. That being said, I've seen the fan cast of you as Wolverine. I think he'd be a really cool Wolverine. Oh, that's nice, man, yeah. I mean, he's, I mean, you know, that performance is great.

He's done it for so long. He's really excellent. That's nice. And that was like, I'm not a big superhero, like, movie guy, but X-Men was the big, that was, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was like... Yeah, X-Men Spider-Man, early on were the ones. And so, of course, I loved all those movies, yeah.

All right, we're going to end with the happy second, confused profoundly random questions for you, Jeremy. Okay, cool. Are you a dog or a cat person? Dog. Do you have one currently? No. I grew up with dogs.

Okay, yeah. You got to fix that. What do you collect, if anything? Besides battered hats. I was gonna say, I do have a lot of hats. I used to collect coins when I was young, but it's been a long time. But maybe I should get back into it.

Maybe there's some real money there. We make some investments, you know? Yeah, Bitcoin, I hear, is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Favorite video game of all time? Oh, probably Grand Theft Auto. Yeah. This is the Dakota Johnson Memorial Question. She asked me this once.

I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one be in your butt? I didn't know, that's funny. It's a lot to process, I know. But, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great answer.

What's the wallpaper on your phone? My daughter is Ezzie and Louie. Yes. The last actor you were mistaken for? I don't I don't get miss. I think my face is so strange. It's very difficult for people to confuse me with other people. But I do all the time. Like I get people really excited to meet me from like shameless days and they'll be like, yo Carl or yo Liam. Liam Gallagher is my favorite like, you know, and I'm just like that's not my. Yeah. You're thinking of a different, you're thinking of a different character. The wrap of our therapy session, you think you look strange, your face is strange?

You're not happy with your face, you're saying? My face? I love my face. I just think it's very distinct. I don't get confused for people very often, I guess, you know. There's only one Jeremy Allen White. There you go. Worst noted director has ever given you.

Smile more. Yeah. Right. Yeah. In the spirit of happy second fuse, an actor who always makes you happy. makes you happy, you see them on screen, you're in a better mood. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Bill Murray.

Nice. What's your go-to, Bill Murray? It's your Matt Rushmore. Probably lost in translation, which isn't his, like, you know, necessarily. But I think to watch that movie, even in a sad, like, it's like, you feel like you're not alone, I guess I should say. Yeah. It's another film about loneliness. Like, Springsteen's over me from nowhere, double bill. Totally.

Connecting it. Excellent double bill. And a movie that makes you sad? I mean, I saw a Hamnet in Telluride, and I haven't been that devastated walking out of a theater. And I saw them after, and it was embarrassing because I was like, I didn't have anything for them. And I wish I could have talked to them later about it. know, and I'd done something with Jesse before, and I know her, and I wanted to just be like, you're the greatest, because she is.

Yeah. But instead, I was just kind of like, you, you know, it was really bad. Hopefully I'll find her soon, be able to talk to her about it. They're probably going to get a lot of that, just people just like seeing them and dispersing into tears. Totally. A food that makes you confused. You don't get it.

I'm like, do I get myself into trouble here? What could possibly? These, like, pizzas thin. This, like, Chicago, thick, like, too bready. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't eat all that bread. You can't be, you can't be doing all this. Where are you on Detroit style, the whole?

Detroit's thin and rectangular, right? Like pub style. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can be, like, cracker thin. One of my favorite places in Chicago is Vito and Nix. It's pub style, which I think is like Detroit. Yeah.

And it's almost like a cracker, and then you've got the cheese and the toppings and the sauce. And that's like, that's excellent. That's a vehicle, a vehicle to put stuff on. Absolutely, absolutely. Pineapple and pizza? Not for me. I mean, do your thing, I guess.

If you're weird. I'm not going to hang out with you, but sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not going to stop you. Finally, I'm going to see you on the stage here at some point? Is that on the West? I would love to do that. I really would.

Yeah. It's hard now with the young kids that are in school in L.A. But yes, if I could find like a summer, like, you know. Six weeks run or something like that. Totally. I would love to. I'd love to. I'm glad this happened.

I'm glad this happened for this film. It's a really special one, man. Thank you. Congratulations to you to Scott, to everybody involved. Springsteen, deliver me from nowhere. Keep collecting your Springsteen merch. Next time I see you, it's going to be... Springsteen memorabilia.

Wall to wall. No, honestly, man. Congratulations on this, and thank you for the time today. I really appreciate you. Nice talking to you, man. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom. You want to tell him or you want me to tell him? No, no, no. I got this. People out there.

People lean in. Get close. Get close. Listen. Here's the deal. We have big news. We got monumental news. We got snack-tacular news.

After a brief hiatus, my good friend, Michael Ian Black, and I are coming back. My good friend, Tom Kavanaugh and I, are coming back to do what we do best. What we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack. To eat a snack. And to rate a snack. Mentifically? Emotionally.

Spiritually. Mates is back. Mike and Tom eat snacks. Is back. A podcast for anyone with a mouth. With a mouth. Available. wherever you get your podcasts.