Happy Sad Confused - Jesse Eisenberg, Vol. II

Episode Date: July 10, 2019

It's been five years since Jesse Eisenberg dropped by the podcast so there's a lot of ground to cover in this fun fast paced conversation -- from his new film "The Art of Self-Defense", why it took ten years to get the gang back together for a "Zombieland" sequel, and that time Bob Weinstein threatened his life! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Jesse Eisenberg, from Zombiland and Batman v. Superman to his new dark comedy, the art of self-defense. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused. Yes, the guest today, returning champion, Mr. Jesse. Eisenberg. It's been a while since Jesse has been on the podcast. He was one of the early guests on Happy Second Fused way back when five years ago, thrilled to have Jesse back. As I said to him, he's one of the few people on the planet that probably speaks faster than I do. So adjust your settings accordingly. Lots of content in a relatively short amount of time coming at you. But Jesse is, there's no one like Jesse Eisenberg. I really love talking to him. He's He is an intellectual. He is funny and smart and interesting and kind of in his own bizarre, wonderful world.

Like he's not, you know, he's not plugged into pop culture, doesn't watch movies or TV. I mean, he just makes his great art. He writes his plays, does his pieces for the New Yorker, and acts in a wide variety of interesting films. And as I said, they kind of run the gamut from. from big blockbusters like zombie land and like Batman v. Superman. And he's never shy about dipping his toe in that arena. He's going to be in the new Zombiland film that's coming out later this year. But he's also well known for starring in great, smaller independent films

from way back when when he kind of came to the fore in Roger Dodger and the Squid and the Whale all the way up to his new film, which is called The Art of Self-Defense. And I really enjoyed this one. This is a very funny movie, a very quirky, odd movie from writer-director Riley Stearns. It kind of confronts our notions of masculinity, toxic masculinity. Jesse plays kind of a put-upon gentleman who's mugged and seeks to better himself, I guess, or find some purpose by taking a martial arts class.

He's led by Alessandro Navola, who is maybe not the best teacher in the world, take some very unexpected twists and turns. The dialogue is very specific and very arched and very funny and I definitely recommend it. It's out this Friday. Seek it out, the art of self-defense. We cover a lot in this conversation.

We talk about all different kinds of films in his career. We talk about... I should say, you know, we talk a bit... Of course, you know, I feel obligated to bring up something like Lex Luthor and Batman v. Superman. It's something that we're all so curious about it. It's such kind of an odd part of his career and philography.

And I kind of have a little fun with him. I kind of say ingest that, you know, something to the effect of you're probably not playing this character again. We're not going to see a Justice League part two. I know the DC fans are very sensitive and very like, I don't know. I don't know how people think that I'm like shitting on DC films. And that's not my intention at all. I just want to be clear about that.

But as somebody that follows the industry and follows the, you know, the way these things work. I don't think we're seeing Jesse Eisenberg, with all due respect, play Lex Luthor again, or we're seeing a Justice League part two. So before you guys come at me, just know that's where I was coming at, just with a kind of a very cognizant awareness of where the DCU films are right now. What else to mention? Yeah, this is a fun conversation. Kind of rambles in the best possible way, takes off on different tangents. I think you guys are going to enjoy it. I certainly did.

Um, there's also an amazing, amazing story of, um, Jesse's own tussle with Bob Weinstein on a infamously, um, cursed project, ironically, called cursed. It was a West Craven werewolf movie that like got just destroyed in terms of production and reshot, et cetera. Anyway, stay tuned for that story. It's kind of fascinating. Um, currently I'm in Los Angeles as I take this introduction. I am, uh, I'm doing some really cool. interviews and podcasts that are coming at you very soon about a very high-profile summer movie that I feel like I'm not allowed to talk about just yet, but stay tuned. Important, exciting content coming at you very soon. Also coming soon, I'll be at San Diego Comic-Con next week,

doing my thing for MTV News, talking to the casts of virtually every, seems like I'm looking at the schedule and it's kind of making me sweat a little bit. But every major film and TV show that's over there or always seems like that, probably about 15 or 20 interviews I'll be doing and we'll be putting all of those out there on MTV News's social media platforms, MTV News's YouTube page, and I'll, of course, be tweeting out the stuff and putting it up on Instagram. So you won't be able to miss it. And if you can't get down to San Diego to say hi, at least hopefully you'll be able to get a sense of the madness that is Comic-Con through. my travels and work. So I hope you guys enjoy that. It's always a blast for me, even if it also

almost always nearly kills me. It's all for you guys. Anyway, without any further ado, let's get to the main conversation of the day. Jesse Eisenberg. Again, the film is the art of self-defense. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to happy, sad, confused. Spread the good word, please, guys. And I hope you guys enjoy this chat with Jesse. Here it is. Mr. Jesse Eisenberg is back in my office. A different office. Good to see you, buddy. It looks very similar. I basically just picked it up and moved it downtown.

Yeah, yeah. Wait, didn't you have a window behind you last time? I did. So I've downskilled in that way. I'm in a box. But I venture to say it's better decorated. I know of booze, probably a little early for that. Right, right, right. And I'm out of time square.

So I think there are some improvements. You're right. There's nothing better than getting out of time square. Um, it's always good to see you. It's been, you were actually pretty early on the podcast. Can you believe it's been five years since you've been on the show? Oh, is that right? Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it must have been back five years. Um, it's always good to have you. We, I think you're the only person that talks faster than I do. So we're going to get, like, in 35 minutes, people are going to get like three hours of content. That's right. This is the first time they're not going to play you at double speed. Exactly. It's dangerous. Um, did you, has a director ever asked you to talk slower in a film. Uh, yeah, Kelly Reichart. She, um, I did a movie with her called night moves. And she is known for these very, like, deliberate slow. Yes. Deliber. Deliberate, slow-paced movies. Yeah, and, yeah, and she, yeah, basically just said, talk slower all the time. And then she was right. I mean, I like that. I always like, yeah, I always like being asked to do something that, like, I don't instinctively do.

Right. Because it just brings me into the role, like, a little more. Sure. Oh, I'm actually earning my paycheck. I'm acting now. I'm doing something. I guess I don't think of it in fiduciary terms. I just like, it just, like, it forces me out of my own, my own patterns.

Right. Yeah, so I loved it. I loved it. I would like to do it again. And then sometimes I'm like in, in this current movie, the Art of Self-Defense, I talk slower, but that's just because my character is like not a smart person. He's just like, he's this kind of simple guy who's like a child.

And so I talked slower, but that's, but not because he's talking slower just because he thinks differently. What is the, is there, generally speaking, the best and worst kind of direction that you can receive in a film? Like, is there the kind of direction that you love and the kind of direction that you hate in terms of the instruction? Yeah. Your friend Ruben Fleischer once told me, okay, now smile.

You know, he was like, sitting seven rooms down from where we were acting. And I just heard, yeah, somebody scream, okay, now smile. And, you know, that's the worst you can give. And Ruben's a friend, I've since, we've since hashed it out, you know. There was that three, three week break in filming where you had to work it out. That's right. Yeah, that's right.

Exactly. And they had to fix the camera that I threw on the floor. No, but, no, but otherwise I love, I love, like, I love tons of direction. I love line readings. Like, no, I love all that stuff. Because to me, you know, I want as much as possible to rid myself. of my own instincts, just because it's more of an interesting challenge for me, and because it puts me in a more, like, emotional place. I'm unsure of myself, and that usually is better

for acting. And so I love that kind of thing. I don't ever feel the need to, like, hold on to something that I think is good about myself. I also don't watch any of the movies I've been in, so I'm not, like, aware of, like, things that I think are, like, cutesy things that work. Like, I just am not aware of that. And I'm completely suspicious of any time I get a good reaction to something, because I assume it's not going to be good the next time. And I guess the goal for many actors, and I've heard this from many people, is getting out of your own head, getting out of your own way. Precisely that, yeah. So that's part of the reason why you haven't seen a film of yours.

Because I remember you said this to me last time, too. Like, I feel like you said that the last film you saw of yours was like Zombie Land. Yeah, because Woody Harrelson, like, dragged me into a screening. And I, like, I loved it. But I, it's such a, that movie somehow. For neurotic, it's just not a good thing, not a place to be to watch yourself for two hours on a giant screen. Yeah, or anybody. I mean, if you notice, like, when people come back from a vacation and they are happy to show you two pictures of the thousand that they took, that's the equivalent feeling I have, you know, that, like, I like 2, or would it be 0.2% of the experience.

And then the other, you know, the other parts I just is mortifying. So, and does that apply to, do you see other films that are not yours? Very, very rarely. I guess I saw you in top five on an airplane. And I guess I just assumed, oh, you're in every movie because you and Chris Rock are in each movie. It was cameos, yeah, exactly. No, I just, I never do. I stopped watching stuff when I started acting and stuff.

I guess I just, I don't know, it kind of made me aware of, like, the artifice of it, and then I just got self-conscious, and now I have a child. So, you know, I've been. Not even good excuse, yeah. So if you're in Peppa Pig, I'll assume then you really are in every movie, but otherwise I don't watch anything. It's got Team Horowitz on that. What about plays, like theater?

Obviously, you're a playwright. I mean, do you want, do you can see more of that? I try to go to, like, I have friends who have plays. I, you know, I try to go to that. but yeah also I feel like anytime I'm watching something that is similar to something I do I just can't get past like the artifice of it I just see the fakedness of it and it makes me self-conscious then when I'm doing it because I'm aware of it not as like this sincere you know manifestation of my thoughts but like actually this kind of I don't know just this like

fake thing that's commodified this is a hugely selfless act that you've done you have sacrificed your enjoyment of so much pop culture art no I watch NBA basketball basketball relentlessly. I watch, I have like NBA League Pass, which allows you to watch like really obscure games, you know, like Sacramento Kings. I didn't even know if it's, I didn't even know it's a city, let alone a basketball team. And yet you're married with the child. Your wife is stuck with you through obscure basketball. Okay, so Sacramento is on the West Coast apparently. So family goes to sleep. 11 o'clock, the games begin. Daddy time begins. Yeah, that's right. I can watch them play basketball. Do you have any attachment to the New York Knicks, the

sad New York Knicks? Zero. I never had an attachment to the NICS of the NICS. I grew up in New York and New Jersey, but also because they were good when I was young. This was like the Patrick Ewing era. And so I didn't like them because they were like the front runners that everybody liked where I lived. So I never liked them. At the beginning, I never liked them because they were great. And so I had a route for the underdog and all my friends liked the Knicks. You know, you had to differentiate.

And now I don't like them because they're impossible to like and owned by a guy who makes it really, really difficult. Have you ever done fantasy sports? My cousin is like the number one fantasy football expert, Jamie Eisenberg. Okay. Yeah. He is, like, ranked all the time as, like, the top predictor of football. So, whenever I'm in England, betting is legal there. Yes.

So I always just ask him for picks, and he's never been wrong. Right. The degenerate comes out, and you just really kill it. Yeah, right, right, right. But that zombie land money to use. That's right. I'm there with my little ticket stubs, you know, one of these people throwing them out. This OTB still exist out here?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Of course, I remember that. Yeah, of course. He used to cross the street, so you didn't have to smell the OTB. Yeah. If I had met you as a 10-year-old, old? Was it basically you but shorter? Was it like a... No, I was the same height. Um, wow. No, no, no. I was a really, I was like a sad kid, so like, no, I would have been quiet and sad, but I like

jokes, but like now I found like a venue like you to like make them. What about you? Were you funny at 10? Yeah, similarly very shy and awkward and all of that and I still am arguably. I just overcompensate on a microphone now. But yeah, you could call it overcompensating, but also like channeling it for good. Yeah, our jokes now are like have an audience and we found it. I always knew this too when I was a kid. I always knew when I'm an adult. I'm going to be fine. I just have to get past this point where I'm stuck with people I didn't choose to be with. Now were you you talked before about your OCD like dealing with that? Like did you were you diagnosed as a kid? I was diagnosed with so many things. I was I was crazy as a kid. I missed a year of school and went to a mental

institution. Yeah. I had like a tough childhood. I was like very terrified kid. At what age? Were you 13? Holy crap. Yeah. We do share a lot in common now that we're saying this because my freshman year of high school, I did not go to school for a year. Oh, seriously? I literally just ditched school and was up to nothing bad. I just would literally like go into like fast food restaurants and buy every newspaper and just read them by myself. How did you get credits for school? I ended up doing a bunch of summer school and yeah, me too, I missed sixth grade. That's crazy. Yeah, really. Where were you depressed or just boy? I've never really diagnosed it myself. But like, you know, I had like grandparents that passed away in a short period of time. My older siblings went away. Maybe I, you know,

I don't know. I was on my own and I, and I was. And I was. I was smart enough to, I mean, it's a long, funny story, but that I've never channeled for, like, a screenplay or a short story, which I should. You got to make some money from it. I should. I should. No, but, like, this is how crazy I was, Jesse. I would, so my freshman year, I was going to Stuyvesant, ostensibly for the first month of school. Oh, oh.

Then I stopped going, and my guidance counselor would call, they would send notes to my parents saying that I was not attending school, and I would impersonate the guidance counselor on the phone to my parents and convince them that I was going to school. Did you have some reasonable similarities to this person? Apparently I could just approximate a deep voice and my parents were rather gullible. And I got away with it for about a year. Oh my goodness. That's amazing. Anyways, your story. Best school in the country, too.

That is. I mean, that's a hard story you're doing it too. So, wait, so without, I mean, as much as you're comfortable talking about it, like, so where were you at, like, that lost year or going? Oh, I had like a tutor, actually, because I couldn't go to school. I was, I was so terrified. Yeah. But I knew, I knew as a kid, like, I knew once I get out of this weird period, I'm. I'm going to be better for it.

You know, in fact, I talk to kids with, like, anxiety now, you know, and stuff like, and my wife works with, my wife works in, like, 150 New York City schools. My best friend is a teacher for kids are formally incarcerated. And, like, I talk to the kids who have been, like, through, you know, real challenging situations. And, you know, I always tell them the same thing. I was like, whatever, like, anxiety you're feeling now, whatever difficulty is going to serve you so well as an adult.

Yeah. And it's really true. You know, by contrast, think about the kid who's, like, the quarterback, you know, and then, like, still reliving his high school. This is like the alternative that you should not strive for. This is true. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so when you got, you started acting pretty early on.

Was that partially, I know your mom was a performer. She was like birthday party clown. Birthday party, yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. Does she ever perform at your own birthday parties? I think she did, or if she didn't, she had, like, she, um, bartered with a local magician. You know, so like she would do. Yeah, they get the friends and family discount. That's right.

Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. So did that, how much did that have to do with your own interests? was it sort of like will your parents trying to find something for you or did you find acting yourself? Yeah, I know my older sister was like involved

in some like children's theater group so I went with her and then I was basically so desperate to find a way out of school so like I wanted to do like theater in New York City so when I was like 14 I started auditioning for theater in New York City essentially just to like get out of going to school

because if you got into a play which I did you'd get to miss Wednesday because they do the matinee or whatever and I was just so desperate it. And then I started finding the arts of it, the creativity of it. And then since then, like, it, you know, obviously changed my life. And I now think of it as in, like, correct, responsible, mature, artistic terms. But at the time, I was kind of just thinking of, I just needed a way out of this situation. So what brings you the most pleasure or boggles your mind the most considering all your accomplishments now? In terms of, like, you know, you've written plays, you've started some great artistic achievements, some great commercial achievements. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't, writing for the New Yorker, et cetera. Like, are there any of those accomplishments that tickle you, tickle the 10-year-old version of yourself most, do you think?

Yeah, I mean, the thing I take the most pleasure from is, like, finishing a writing a play and then doing, like, the first reading around a friend's table. Like, that to me is the most exciting thing, probably because it's the culmination of a lot of work, which is to say, you know, let's say a year or six months of writing something, and then also performing with no judgment, which is to say, I'm just sitting around a table reading with people. I also tell people who say they want to act. I say if you want to pursue acting, pursue it. Think that you're going to do it for free for the rest of your life and then pursue it. Because people tend to watch, you know, movie stars or something and think they want to do that. But that's like the great rarity.

But if you actually like the craft of, you know, the enjoyment of doing the actual thing, then you can pursue it because you'll be happy doing it in any venue. So I love, yes, and I also love rehearsing plays because, again, there's no audience there. when I start doing my plays for an audience I just get panicky because you know you're just being judged and especially when you work off Broadway tends to be like theater people going to the show

not tourists as much and so they're just you know increasingly you know unhappy you know I mean you know because they're in on it you know and they're competitive or whatever as what I'd be going to plays and stuff you know so so the plays I do tend to have like you know maybe not the most forgiving audiences either sure sure do you okay so moving on because we should pay some service to a film that I very much enjoy

The Art of Self-Defense is the new film. Riley Stearns is the writer-director. This one, I know this, I've heard you talk about this one. This is one of your favorites. Oh, yeah, yeah, far in a way. The script is really unique and special. I mean, I have some of the early, you know, you can tell early on from just the way the dialogue is presented, the tone of it that this is special. How was your character presented on the page?

Is there much description to your character on the page? Sure. No. In fact, Riley, he's a really brilliant writer. And because he's so brilliant, he really doesn't put that much in the script. But it's pretty, it's kind of self-explanatory, but also the people speak in such strange ways that the first month of just of meeting with Riley was just, I just wanted him to assure me that this is not the kind of comedy that, you know, that I would associate with like 90s comedies where it's like kind of the, you know, put upon protagonist who then finds his inner story. strength is that this is a skewed odd world where we're supposed to speak in this kind of stilted way like children basically everybody talks like a child kind of and even the even the even the kind of malevolent characters talk like a mean kid rather than like you know rather than like you know a scary cult leader which this antagonist is but anyway and he just kept assuring me yes this is not the kind of you know you know nervous protagonist who finds his inner strength so that was like that that that's why I wanted to do the movie too because the

movie felt to me like this incredibly brilliant twist on the sports genre. Yes. The sports genre being, you know, the, you know, Rudy, the hapless guy. You then becomes the unlikely hero through sport. You know, so this is a really brilliant satire on masculinity and by extension, kind of of a satire on the sports movie tropes. Totally. What was your, so what was growing up, what was your notion of like ideal masculinity in film or TV?

Was it, like, did you have, like, a person on the wall figuratively or metaphorically? No, I mean, I, okay, so in the 90s, I'm just looking around your office, and you have, like, you know, all these strong guys from 90s. I do have that Kurt Russell up there. Yeah, Kurt Russell. Michael J. Fox is actually a, he's more relatable kind of. Sure. But Paul Newman is certainly an icon of masculinity. And I wasn't, like, a big fan of movies growing up, and I partly, I guess the reason is I found those guys to just be these kind of, like, inaccessible cartoon characters.

You know, I'm talking about, like, the. Stallone Schwarzenegger era. I'm sure you felt the same way. Like, this is, I mean, it's just like not something I would associate myself with. But then, I guess as I got older, maybe this was like in early 2000, Ben Stiller started being like in all these popular movies. And that to me was like a little more, it seemed a little more relevant to my world. And then when I was like 16 or 17, somebody gave me a videotape of a Woody Allen movie.

I'd never seen anything of his. I heard the name, of course, because it's an unusual name. And that was like a revelatory because to me, he was talking about things. first of all just personally what he is was felt relevant and similar to me similar to family I grew up with with little asides and you know kind of self-awareness but even more interesting to me

was that he was discussing things that were just interesting to him he wasn't dumbing himself down to make himself more accessible he would talk about the Knicks because he liked the Knicks but he would also talk about Freud because he was interested in you know you know this therapy and so when I started like writing stuff that that was just my just it seeped into me in the best way, which is don't censor yourself.

If you're interested in something, don't censor it because you think not enough people are going to also be interested in it. Right, the thing that excites you the most and hope, you know, that there's enough people on the Venn diagram of your interests that are going to be curious about it, too. To that point, are you, in some ways, are you so surprised that this is going to sound like a backhanded compliment or something, but that you are as successful as you are, you're as big kind of a movie, you're a movie star as you are. Do you know what I mean?

like that you, that you, because you have very particular tastes and sensibilities and attitude, that I guess, you know, to your point, there are the Woody Allen's, the Dustin Hoffman's, the, those people that are more in league with, with your vibe. Yeah. But did you imagine your career being as, being the celebrity that you've become? Well, I find, well, well, I don't know. Everything you're describing to me sounds incredibly tenuous anyway. Like, you know, I don't know that I'm going to be in other things that are going to be popular. So I don't know. that. But up until this point, yeah, I've been in, like, popular movies that I wouldn't have associated somebody like me with, whether it be a superhero movie or whether it be a magic movie. You know, these things are not something that I would have, you know, let's say as an outsider, if I was an outsider of myself, have pegged me for. But two things come to mind. One is that Jews are really good at assimilating into things that are not their own culture. And two, is I grew up in the suburbs in New Jersey where you had no choice but to assimilate. It wasn't like I grew up in New York where everybody was like me and talk like.

like me and, you know, I could, let's say, sustain the personality I have in high school. Like, I couldn't, you know, I had to, like, fit into, like, you know, at jock high school. So I know that a little bit. I probably know that world a little bit better than, like, if I were to grow up on the Upper West Side or something. But, sorry, I don't mean so. Not that you're so niche. Yeah, no, no, no, not that you're so niche.

But, like, I, my personality, as it is now, couldn't succeed in the schools I went to in New Jersey. You know what I mean? And so maybe I had to change a little bit. And also, and I guess my taste is not that specific. specific like to me like I loved doing the Batman Superman movie like I loved all my scenes and I thought they were like great written by this brilliant guy Chris Terrier to me that fit in line completely with my tastes I'm not a comic book fan or whatever but like that movie and what I got to do and it fit totally in line with my sensibility sense of humor dramatic ideas um yeah so uh so some of the popular things I've been in have coincided with my taste we just did zombie land too and to me there's like to me it's the humor in zombie land is as high brow as it gets in mainstream comedy, it's just mixed with a lot of low-brow things, like killing

zombies and some low-brow humor. But the reason Zambi Land is good is because actually it doesn't deny high-brow references and strange allusions to things that wouldn't otherwise be in that genre. Right. And so to me, it's not a compromise of humor at all. In fact, to me, it's like a kind of aspirational comedy piece. It strikes me that

have you worked on more films than with Woody Harrelson than any other actor around? Probably. Maybe, except Woody Harrelson is in tons of movies. He's in so many movies. Look him up, you'd be surprised that he's in as many movies. And it's so funny because I'm sure you've had, I mean, you know him better than I, but I've talked to him quite a bit over the years. And he, every time I talk to him, he's like, I'm trying not to work.

I don't want to work. I just want to live in Maui and not work. He says this all the time, but then he says, but then, you know, somebody says me something. And I think, God, how can I not do that? Yeah. He's, he's, he's, the thing about him is he transcends, he's one of these actors that transcend genre, that transcends personality. And in a way, when you watch him, you're kind of enjoying him, but it's skewed in some way. and he's just up for anything.

He has no ego, he has no timidity, he has no self-consciousness, and he's just brilliant. And also he spent, he's not a guy who grew up as a Jewish East Coast New Yorker and comic, but he spent like seven years or maybe more on a sitcom. Yes. And so he has this kind of borsch-belt. Amazing timing.

Yeah, he's a borsh-belt timing, but he's a southerner with an accent. And so he just, he's this incredibly unusual person. Yeah, because I mean, I grew up with that. That was arguably my favorite sitcom growing up. And I feel like I underestimated him. I feel we all underestimated him. Like, I think we mistook him for that character.

And he is like the versatility that he has shown in his career is. It's unbelievable because he can play the simpleton. And I think also because we're filtering it through our ears. And when we hear a Southern accent, it feels like, oh, maybe he's kind of like, you know, maybe he's not in on the joke, right? But he is. He's in on the joke. And that's what I think sustains him is that he's in on it.

He's aware of it. And he doesn't, he doesn't like, he's not condescending to southern culture or something. You know, he's, you know, he's funny and honest. Does he still have the, like, doesn't he have, like, some kind of crazy van that he has with him on those shoots? Yeah, he has, like, a trailer that's, like, eco-friendly on diesel and everything. Have you ever played chess or smoked weed with Willie Nelson in his diesel trailer? You gave me a way to answer that could just imply chess. So yes.

Damn it. Well, we did do, I will remind you, we did to do a whole. You did a whole press junket, and we did a whole bit on the American Ultra. It's less subversive now that it's legal, isn't it? Our cool press junket idea. Do you remember, this is one of my favorite moments ever in an interview I've done, quote-un-un-quote interview, where I was showing you and Kristen a bunch of, like, random photos. It was kind of like in this, you know, like weird, like smoking environment.

And you guys had mentioned being freaked out by the image throughout your life of fingers growing out of fingers. Oh, yeah, yeah, I do remember that. And then, like, five minutes later, we happened to have that. photo to show you. It's one of my favorite reactions ever in a conversation I've had on camera. It was your reaction. I've seen that photo. Yeah, I've seen that picture since. It's an odd looking picture. It's haunting you. Wait, why did you have it? Or this was just part of like the Stalin's crazy thing. Psychedelic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just react to this and you would happen to mention it three minutes earlier. Right, right, right. Bizar. Yeah, that is strange. I do

remember that. I think she was the one who brought it up, though, because I don't think it would have occurred to me to even think about that image. Yes, I think so. So what was it like, so zombie land 10 years later you guys have all grown up some have changed and you know you're married now Abigail's much older she was a kid when she started

was that a surreal experience to sort of see and it really speaks to like what Rubin and the script and you were talking about it before like that you guys don't need to do zombie land too at this point like none of you really do Emma does not need to do zombie land movie yeah I think like we wanted to do them I think what happened was we wanted to do a sequel

afterwards and the movie company Sony was like obviously wanting to do it because it was a popular movie. But I think just because all of us were busy with other things that it didn't feel like this thing we needed to like shoehorn for some kind of like exploitation of the first one or capitalization on a popular movie. So I think we were just waiting for

like the right script to come in. Several really brilliant writers wrote drafts and it just didn't exactly feel right. They felt that way too. And then finally Rhett and Paul they had done like two Deadpool movies, the writers. And so when they were like finally free to like rewrite a draft that they had written you know seven years earlier or something they got it in a good place and then um and then i think we all felt like now it's worthwhile to do

rubin uh gave me a sneak peek at like a crazy action sequence that's like a masked continuous shot oh yeah yeah yeah yeah right that looks unbelievable oh so when yes yeah exactly it is great yeah yeah it's great and those are the most fun to film i did one in american ultra two where like it's like a five-minute action sequence, but they make it look like it's one continuous shot. And what's great about that as an actor is you know exactly when you get it right because you have to choose a take

before you can do the next take because it has to match seamlessly. And so as actors, we just love it because we get to see it, what we did wrong, and we know as soon as we're done. It's just the most fun thing on set. Everybody's, like, exhilarated. The whole crew loves it.

I'm sure. Yeah, it's just a different experience. By the way, on your IMDB, it's the list Justice League Part 2 is an upcoming film for you. You might want to have team Eisenberg address this situation. It's such a big team. I don't even know. Who'd even ask to address this?

Actually, it's actually a league. Speaking of leagues, here's my question for you had a bit at the end of Justice League, where you talked to Joe Mangonello's character, Deathstroke. Do you have any idea what you were talking about or what you were alluding to, what you were teasing at the end of that thing, which you seemingly sadly will never see? Oh, is that right? Well, I don't want to break news to you, but I don't think it's going. Oh, then I semi didn't.

Yeah, I mean, I knew what it was. Oh, no, this is really awkward, then. No, no, no, no. I'm sure you're right. I'm sure, but I don't know explicitly as much as you know because I'm not following the myths of all the things. Yeah, but, yeah, no, I asked, yeah, I asked, what am I talking about?

This is like the first job of an actor. What am I talking about here? I mean, maybe not for all actors. Maybe some just show up and just say the words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're a consummate professional. You need to know what you're talking about it. You know what I'm talking about here?

What the fuck am I doing here? Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, no, I knew what the time, I can't tell you what it is now. But yeah, I knew it was at the time, sure. Do you feel anything left on the table for Lex Luthor? Do I have anything left on the table? No, never.

No, I mean, I don't prove. No. No, but I loved it. I mean, I loved every moment of it. It was great. I would not have thought of myself for it. So to me, it was all like house money, I would call it. You know what I mean?

So for, okay, so for this one, there were some other random tangential things that occur to me when watching the art of self-defense. Are you interested in self-improvement? Do you take classes? Have you taken, you know, learning another language, martial arts. No.

No, I'm sure to answer. I'm suspicious of anybody in, you know, authority telling me that this is a better way to live your life. I always think the person is a psychopath. You know what I mean? Because they're usually doing it for their own reasons, but it has the mask of benevolence, and I'm suspicious of any kind of thing like that, because it seems sincere. So I don't do anything like that. Have you had a mentor?

Have you ever had an evil or good mentor? An evil or good mentor? Yes. I mean, I've had, yes. I mean, the person who changed my creative life more than anybody was Bob Odenkirk, you know him? Yeah. Because when I was like 16 through 21, I was writing movie scripts that were like really commercial, like Adam Sandler type movie scripts. You know, Adam Sandler Netflix movie scripts.

It gives you an indication of, I don't even know what I'm talking about, but I think you do. Yeah. Anyway. And like, so I said, and then I met Bob because we were going to do a movie together, like a real dark, independent film called The Fuck Up. Can I say that? Yeah, by this great book, Arthur Nessian's great book. So had you done Roger Dodger by this point? Yeah, I just done that movie, and I met Bob.

I was 21 or something, and I gave Bob this script that had been optioned by, like, was it Michael Bay's company or Depth of Field, Paul White's company? Yeah, yeah. That was like a big comedy script, and they were selling it to Universal or something. I was like 19 when I wrote it. I gave it to Bob, and Bob has no filter, and he's really bright, and he called and said, buddy, why are you writing this, man? I could write this in a weekend for Adam Sandler.

I'd be hired to write this in a weekend. Why are you writing this? You're a smart, thoughtful, sensitive guy. He writes something personal. And I was mortified. I vowed to never talk to him again. I, you know, I'd spent five years writing these things. I had written, like, four scripts.

Three of them were optioned by, like, Hollywood companies. I thought this was like an amazing success story. And he also said, none of these are ever going to get made. These guys buy them, and they shelved them. None of these will ever get made. And I was miserable. And then I went to do a movie in Europe, and I knew I had a cousin in Poland who survived the war. And I went to visit her on a lark, and I had this amazing experience

with her. I'm sure as many Jewish kids do when they meet a survivor that's part of their family. You have some revelatory experience about your own past. And so I wrote, so I started right and I also have a background in theater. So I thought, okay, well, maybe I could write a play about this woman and she's such an interesting character. On the one hand, she's a survivor

and on the other hand, she's tough and funny. You know, she's not just a victim and everything. And I could also write about me and my selfishness as an American going there with all of my privilege and with all of my, you know, obnoxious, you know, all of my, you know, kind of obnoxious manifestations of my own entitlement, right, compared to her life. And so I started writing a play about it. I was like 22, and that became my first play. Vanessa Redgrave ended up playing my cousin. It gets

translated and performed around the world. I've seen it in different languages. And that was my first play. My fourth play just finished last week. Susan Sarandon played the main part. So I've now, I have like a real playwriting career, and it was all because Bob told me to stop writing these things. I would have kept going. I mean, I had my Saturday Night Live sketch packet ready to submit. I really wanted to be a comedy writer.

And yeah, Bob told me write something personal. That's exactly what you were talking about before. You were kind of, whether consciously or unconsciously, following what you thought you were supposed to do, as opposed to being true to your own sensibilities. Exactly that, exactly that. Yeah. And you know, it's funny because Bob came from real,

Bob came from comedy. He wrote on the Ben Stiller sketch show. He wrote on Saturday Live and The Simpsons. And then he ended up doing this sketch show, Mr. Show, which was like a sketch show on acid. It was so off the wall, and that's really what he likes to do. And now he ends up doing these kind of like dark acting part. So he, in a way, kind of followed his advice as well. And you look at his career as like kind of this very unusual set of things, but that's all the stuff he really likes doing. So it's interesting. You talk about

that period when you were 21. Like I think of your early roles, and we've talked about them a bit in the past, whether it's Roger Dodger and Squid and the Whale. And then I look at something, And, like, was there a wake-up call when, like, the first, quote, unquote, failures, maybe too strong a word, but you were on a very infamous production, cursed. Oh, yeah. This, like, West Craven movie that, from what I gather, was essentially, like, re-shot. Like, they just did it again. That's right.

Yeah. 120 days. Yeah. So what's the learning from that? Is that a wake-up call in some ways to sort of, like, the dark ways the industry can compromise itself? I mean, that was a direct result of the Weinstein stuff you read about now, not the horrific sexual assault stuff, but they're...

But the cutting up of the films and over-management of directors or whatever. That's a great understatement. I mean, bullying everybody on set, including me. I didn't actually want to do the movie, and they basically threatened me. I know where you live. I'm not joking.

Yeah. So had you already done a wine scene movie? Why were you pushed into a... No, I auditioned for the movie. Because at the time I auditioned for anything that came across my desk, like any actor does. But I never expected to get offered any parts. So when they actually offered it to me,

like, wait, I have to sit down and figure out what this is. I gave the script to my dad, you know, I was living at home at the time. I gave the script to my dad. My dad said, what would you, you can't do this thing. What would you do? Why would you do this? You know, it's like, because, now, I really like the script. It's written by Kevin Williamson.

Yeah. Really clever writer. Yeah. But my dad wanted me to go to college, and the only way I could not go to college was if I was doing these kind of like highbrow things that my dad kind of appreciated like Roger Dodger and the Squid and the Whale, right? And so my dad said, no, you know, go to school. if you're just going to do kind of a commercial thing,

go to go back to college, right? Yeah. And so I told the agent I didn't want to do it, and they said, you know, you can't do that. You audition for it. So they set me up in a meeting with Bob Weinstein, who basically told me, I'll ruin your career if you don't do this movie.

I'm not joking. And as I was leaving the office, he said, and just remember, I know where you live. I was like, are you kidding? He said, no. What? No. He said, my people tell me where you live.

I'm not joking. Did you, like, what's the reaction in the moment of that? Like, you took him seriously? I was a 20-year-old kid. I was horrified. Of course. Yeah, of course. Now, I don't want to put down the movie

because I actually liked the first draft of the movie was actually really good. They ruined it. I mean, ultimately, by rewriting it all the time. And yeah, but yeah, but that was like, it's funny because when all this stuff started coming out, I was like, oh my God, they did this to everybody. Now, I'm not comparing what happened to me, obviously,

to any kind of the sexual assault stuff is in a completely different league. But in terms of, like, bullying people working on their movies. Like, my goodness gracious. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Okay, jumping around a little bit.

What do you, you talked about, like, kind of like to, enjoying being directed. So being in something like social network must be a pleasure because you're in the hands of Fincher. Did you enjoy that? You probably knew the kind of experience you were getting into, considering the specificity of a Sorkin script, knowing the way David shoots. Did you find yourself in a comfortable, is that a comfortable position to be in? Oh, it's like the greatest luxury. Yeah, so my background is in theater where, like, you know, you would do a show, my last play, I did it 200 times. you know, two countries. So I, and still, I wish I could do it a hundred more times. Like,

I feel like I still haven't exactly figured it out. Um, you know, or, you know, little moments here that you want to perfect. And so, uh, to do like a thousand takes of, I mean, a hundred takes of a scene or whatever to me is the best possible luxury you can have in a movie. I mean, the great, the great downside of doing independent films, which typically have greater characters, you know, and all that stuff is that you're not enough time to really explore the scenes, you know. Yeah. Um, so, you know, usually prepare a little more beforehand or whatever. But like, no, so with that and with somebody who's so brilliant and who has so many ideas about each character and each moment, no, it's the greatest luxury you could possibly

have. Was it awkward meeting Zuckerberg at S&L or was that like? So like when you're doing that kind of thing, like you're in such unbelievably heightened state. And by that kind of thing, I mean like doing press for a movie for six months, you know, which is kind of what those things are. And then being on a show like Saturday Night Live, which is like a whirlwind of an experience that gives you no time to like, you know, step back and pinch yourself about that. this cool thing that you're doing. So, like, I met him probably in the best possible circumstances for it to be the least uncomfortable

because everything else around me was so uncomfortable. And, no, I mean, I think he probably looks at me like, you know, like, I'm not the main culprit of, like, of contextualizing his thing in a way that seems controversial. Right. I think he probably sees me as, like, you know. Functionary, you just work here. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, and we were hired because there's similar. You know, and I was hired because of similarities rather than, like, you know, I have some dark perspective on, you know, the sinister workings of this company, which I don't, you know. I wouldn't expect you to know this because I've learned that you live in a media cocoon. But Sorkin has, whether seriously or not said that he potentially would be interested in another script, another tale of Mark Zucker. Yeah, somebody mentioned that to me in another interview, but I don't, I'm not aware of it. Is that at all peak your interest to know that he, and I apparently Rudin also is like... Oh, yeah, I mean, it's interesting because then it's become, you know, so relevant again, you know, that company because it's like the company is both relevant in a specific way, but also as an emblematic kind of, as emblematic of, you know, are changing ideas about, you know, privacy issues and are changing ideas about data and stuff like that. So, yeah, of course, there's so many interesting themes.

Does it make for a movie? I don't know. Somebody could crack it. It would be a brilliant guy like Aaron Sorkin. So beyond Peppa Pitt. and NBA basketball. I assume you haven't seen Game of Thrones. You haven't seen a Marvel or DC movie.

You haven't seen a Star Wars movie. Are these safe assumptions? Those are all correct. You know, these kind of things obviously are great and these are cultural touchstones, but they require an amount of viewing that I cannot give myself to. You know what I mean?

I can't these things that are... He has 12 obscure NBA basketball games to watch. No, but the thing about basketball, you can dip in and out, and the rules are all the same. But you can't go watch Avengers Endgame having seen none of the other Marvel movies because you could just look at the guys by color, you know what I mean?

Do you want me to just summarize what happens? Maybe that's a shortcut for you. You don't even have to do that. I'm not even going to worry about it. It has no impact on my wife. No one walks up to me on the street with a gun and say, name the three characters who are magnetized. And I don't have to...

We're living in strange times. This could happen. I know. I'm looking out for your self-interest. I'm interested in them as like kind of commentaries on culture, you know, but I could also just read the op-ed page in the Times. But that is interesting to me. And I have a friend on Game of Thrones,

is Bella Ramsey, the young girl on it. Do you know what I'm talking about? She's a 15-year-old girl. I don't know what she plays on it. And so I'm kind of curious to see her because she's a great actress, but the problem is like to just watch a scene from it, you'd have no sense of the context,

and it just requires such a commitment. What are you, are you writing right now? Yeah, I'm writing a book for Audible. So, you know, Audible does these like straight to audio books, everything. So, yeah, I'm writing a book now, so I'm halfway through. Yeah, and that's due in August, actually. And you've been associated with some TV projects.

Are you working on a TV? project that you had a writer or direct? I had a project that I was writing and directing with JJ Abrams and it got turned down by each company, you know, respectfully so, but turned down nonetheless. Was Bob Weinstein involved? No, no, no, maybe. No, no, no. And I'm Norton, could I get the addresses of anybody who turned down so it wasn't helpful? It's always good to catch up with you. Did we say enough about the art of self-defense? Here's what you need to know. It's a great piece of writing, a great piece of acting from a great piece of material from Riley Stearns as a writer-director.

It's funny. It tackles a very topical issue in toxic masculinity. What else do they need to know? I don't know. It's just an absolutely brilliant satire on, you know, I guess what people are calling toxic masculinity, this kind of dangerous masculinity in society. I'll just say one more thing, which is relevant to our conversation,

which is that Riley wrote the movie in 2015, and then while we were filming the movie, I think actually it was on my birthday, October 5th, this was 2017, we were following the movie, and the Harvey Weinstein story was broke. And so the movie took on this very unusual thing because we were reading about this horrific man and the abuses and the horrible exploitation.

And then doing this movie about kind of the dangers of masculinity. And so the movie coming out now has taken on this kind of different feeling because people are filtering it through cultural discussions about toxic masculinity. And so the movie was prescient in a lot of ways, but also I think the movie so subtly and in a while of ways unintentionally

talks about the things we're all talking about today. Even though when I first read it, again, this was before the Me Too movement, I just thought it was one of the funniest things I've ever read and kind of very sly commentary. But now, of course, it's increasingly relevant, unfortunately. Definitely, definitely. Look at that. 40 minutes, yet three hours of content.

Bang for your buck, always on the half-to-second series podcast. Yeah, exactly. Don't be a stranger. I'm sure I'll see you on the zombie land circuit soon enough. Great. And, yeah, don't be a stranger. Five years too long between podcasts. I know, I know, I know.

I know what are we going to do? I don't know. Maybe I'll move to an office with a window again. Yeah, maybe I'll try to do more films. You're busy. You're watching NBA basketball. Of course, I know. And raising a child.

That's true. Congrats for me. Thanks a lot. Good to see you. Great to see you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. You want to tell him, or you want me to tell him? No, no, no, I got this. People out there. People out there. People. Lean in, get close, get close. Listen, here's the deal.

We have big news. We got monumental news. We got snack-tacular news. Yeah, after a brief hiatus, my good friend, Michael Ian Black, and I are coming back. My good friend, Tom Kavanaugh and I, are coming back to do what we do best. What we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack. To eat a snack.

And to rate a snack. Nemptively? Emotionally. Spiritually. Mates his back. Mike and Tom eat snacks. His back. Podcast for anyone with a mouth.

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