Happy Sad Confused - Jodie Foster

Episode Date: February 14, 2021

30 years to the day that "The Silence of the Lambs" was released, Jodie Foster joins Josh for the first time on "Happy Sad Confused" to reminisce about everything that clicked on that classic. Plus she reminisces about her life in film, from "Taxi Driver" and "Contact" to "Panic Room" and her friendship with Kristen Stewart. Foster is currently starring in the docudrama, "The Mauritanian". For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! And listen to THE WAKEUP podcast here! Watch Jamie Dornan on a new episode of STIR CRAZY here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, legendary actor Jodie Foster on her extraordinary career and her latest role in The Mauritaineum. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harrow.

It's welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Yes, if you check your podcast feed, this is an extra episode, guys. We're in bonus territory. And if you're listening to it on the... initial day I'm posting it, happy Valentine's Day. Let me explain to you why it's Valentine's Day and why you're listening to this. 30 years ago today, guys, 1991, February 14th, guess what happened? Silence of the Lambs, one of the great films in the history of cinema, not hyperbole. It's a classic, a stone-cold classic. I've maybe seen it more than any other film not called Star Wars.

came out, so I thought Jody Foster on her first appearance on Happy Second Fused, what better day than to debut this conversation on the 30-year anniversary of Silence of the Lambs? And yes, we talked quite a bit about silence as well as many other aspects of her extraordinary career in a really special conversation. I've wanted to have Jody on the podcast for some time. She is a part of Hollywood history from her first Oscar nomination and taxi driver all the way up to her performance in the Mauritanian, the new film from Kevin McDonald, which is a true

story. It's based on a true story of the injustices at Guantanamo Bay, features her alongside Benedict Cumberbatch, Tahar Rahim, who's also receiving awards love, as is Jody, and one of our favorites, Shailene Woodley. So great ensemble, great film, check out the Morantanian and see the latest from Jody Foster, who always delivers in front of the camera. She's also a hell of a filmmaker, too from her first feature directing effort in Little Man Tate. She's directed probably, what, five or six movies by now, a lot of television. We talk a lot about her evolution as a filmmaker, her views on streaming versus theatrical. We had to talk about contact, one of my favorite movies back in the day, a lot covered in

this chat. And I will say she was a trooper, some technical difficulties in this chat. We're going to do our best in the edit. Hopefully you won't notice the seams. And by the way, that rattling you here, that's Lucy. That's a cameo from the new Horowitz dog, who's adorable, but also restless right now. So right after this intro, here's a fun fact. Lucy's getting a walk.

But yes, there were some tech difficulties on this one. We lost connection a couple times. So we'll try to patch it up. Hopefully you won't notice it too much, but know that if it sounds a little janky at parts, that's why. But thankfully, Jodie Foster was amazing. And, yeah, so very thankful for her. and her time today. Other things to mention, as this is an extra episode of Happy, Sad, Confused,

you already know Stir Crazy, you already know the new stuff coming up on Stir Crazy. The newest episode of Stir Crazy coming up in just a couple days. I'll give you a sneak peek. It's Noah Centineo, the Dreamboat, that is, Noah Centineo from the To All the Boys movies. He is a delight. Check that out in just a couple of days. One other thing I do want to mention, I've mentioned this before on the podcast, is the wake-up, which I've mentioned in the context as a podcast. It's done by my friend Sean

McNulty. It's a great digest of media and entertainment headlines every single weekday. He's also got a newsletter right now that I subscribe to, and I would highly recommend. It's always going to be in your inbox when you wake up. Go to the wakeup.com. Check it out. Again, just a nice, easy to peruse digest of everything you need to know in media and culture and entertainment. The wakeup.substack.com.com. for all your media headlines. Okay, that's all the preamble for today's show. Happy Valentine's Day, if you're listening to this on Valentine's Day.

Why not listen to Jodie Foster and then check out Silence of the Lambs for the 100th time because that one does hold up. Here's me and, yeah, I'm going to call her a legend. The legend, Jody Foster. Calm down, Lucy. I'm coming. I'm coming. She is relentless.

Well, Well, there's no pomp and circumstance, though. In this case, I feel like it's deserved because we've got royalty. We've got Jody Foster on Happy Say I Confused Podcast. I'm doing something right. Jody, it's a pleasure to have you on. Aw, thank you. What a nice introduction.

Congrats on the Mauritanian, but more importantly, congrats on Aaron Rogers thanking you in his MVP speech. This is a significant accomplishment. Yes, isn't it? I am a cheesehead through and through. So that was pretty thrilling. I have to say that might be one of the most thrilling shoutouts I've ever had in my life.

Was that unexpected? Give me a sense. Give me some background, too. How did you end up a cheese set? How did you end up being a Green Bay Packers fan? Totally unexpected. And I've never met Aaron Rogers. And I, it's a really, it's such a dumb story about how I became a fan.

Because I loved, I, I didn't always love football. I think I loved it when I was seven, when the International House of Pancakes gave you those little tiny helmets. Sure. And I learned every single one of them, and I put them up. in my room and I made sure that they were all in a row and all that kind of stuff. And then flash forward like about 40 years. And somehow I got interested in football and got into it. And then someone brought me a cheesehead. And I was like, oh, no, this is my team. So of course

I started following them. And then, you know, the love just flowed out of me. What can I say? So does that? Devonte Adams is my person. I know it's not, it's not okay to be possessive of your, of the people you're, you're fans of, but he is mine. He belongs to me because when I played fantasy, I just, you know, I looked into him, I researched him and I was like, he was my guy, and he made me win. Do you still play fantasy football? I haven't had the opportunity because I had to choose between politics and fantasy. And sadly, these last four years have taken me down that path because you have to choose between the two. You cannot, you cannot do That's interesting. Yeah, I haven't correlated that in my own life, but I used to be baseball was my sport growing up. I'm a New Yorker and I grew up with the Yankees. I was like to qualify it by saying that I was Yankees fan in the one dry period in the Yankees. I know it's like, oh, he's rooting for like the Dallas Cowboys. It's just like, no, no. The Yankees sucked when I was a kid. Trust me, guys. But anyway, I was a big fantasy baseball player up until a few years ago. And I talked it up to, I don't know if it was quote unquote maturity, other things going on, but maybe it was also distractions of politics. Who knows?

Yep, yeah. So congratulations, not only on the Aaron Rogers speech, but on Mauritani and another fine piece of work. I'm a big fan of Kevin McDonald's and your co-stars in this. This has all the right ingredients, and it really works in this case. You found yourself yet again in an awards discussion. I know this is a silly kind of weird topic to talk about, but the reason I bring it up is it is a part of your career. I mean, first of all, of course, they're the two Oscar ones, but it's also back to the beginning. beginnings, the first time you were nominated, you were what, 12, 13, 14?

Yeah, I did taxi driver when I was 12, but I think by the time I was nominated, I might have just been turning 14. So what are your memories of that part of it? I mean, obviously, award season stuff was way different than it's a whole different ballgame now, but like did it register as something exciting and important back then or what? It was so exciting for me because I grew up in a movie television family. So we, you know, we would go into my mother's bedroom and we had a black and white television set and everybody would sit on the floor and, you know, we'd watch the Oscars. And that was just a part of my childhood. I mean, it never occurred to me that I would ever have anything to do with the Oscars or that I would ever be in it. I did. However, once, and sadly, YouTube exists because I'm sure you can probably find this. I sang a song on the Oscars when I was, I don't know, maybe nine or ten. with Johnny Whitaker, who was my co-star and Tom Sawyer,

and Napoleon and Samantha, and we sang a song, a Disney song. So I had been to the Oscars before. You were a veteran even by then. Of course you were. If any, I forgot who I'm talking to for a second. I do take a certain amount of comfort in the fact that you're being discussed. You may end up be nominated opposite. You're Alice doesn't live here.

Co-star, Ellen Burstyn, is being talked about. And there's something satisfying and makes me happy that the people that I've grown up with are still delivering amazing work, that Ellen is just like killing it still, that your career has evolved in different ways. And I don't know, that I need these touchstones in my life. Yeah, you know, look, movies, I mean, I used to believe, and this was true in my life,

that movies were the most meaningful thing on earth. And for me, growing up, they really were, like, you know, everything that I knew about Vietnam, I know because I knew because of movies. And every, you know, what I knew about JFK, I knew because movies, like it was this kind of like refracted universe that I lived in that affected me more than anything else. And I changed through them. I mean, there are movies like, you know, The Deer Hunter or the piano or, you know, fearless or any number of movies that I can genuinely say that my heart was changed for those films. And I will never be the same.

However, I did reach a certain age where I realized Eureka, there are other things in life that are just as meaningful as making movies. And I can't quite believe it took me that long. And, you know, I have had to sort of put them to the side and say, you know, when they are meaningful, I will participate. But I can't, they can't be everything for me. You know, you've said before, I believe, your mom told you to be prepared because you were going to be, your career was going to be done by what when you were 17? Yeah, yeah. She says as soon as you turn 18, that'll be it. That'll be over.

So give me some perspective as somebody that is a couple years past 17 or 18 and is still killing. it. Are you surprised at the viability, at the roles that are still out there that you have been, had this iterative career that keeps kind of reinventing itself? Yeah, I feel really grateful and lucky that I get to, you know, just be a part of making movies. I mean, honestly, I'd be happy being a boom operator or being a camera operator. Like, I just, I want to be part of them. I want to be a part of not just the actual physically being on the set with a bunch of 125 people and that kind of family feeling that you get, but also being a part of changing the culture. and making the culture better instead of worse.

So for me, that's just, it's just been a mission and I feel really proud of being a part of this community. But yeah, I can't quite believe that I'm still acting because that just seems crazy that I'm still doing the same thing I did when I was three. Well, not to mention you're on record and like every time you come around and talk about your career, I feel like every five or 10 years, you're like,

yeah, I'm probably, this could be it. This is it. I do that all the time, I do. I kind of opt out all the time where I'm like, this is it, I'm done, I'm done with acting. I never get tired of movies, either as an audience member or as a filmmaker, as a director, I mean, I know that will always be something.

But acting is a tough job because it isn't just acting, unfortunately. It's also representing and it's, you know, celebrity culture and, you know, trying to navigate that and control that, which is difficult, especially now. So there are moments where I just don't want to have anything to do with celebrity culture and where I just can't,

bear to have to navigate it. What about the work itself in terms of the quality of roles that come across your desk, your email? Do you get a lot of good offers, a lot of roles that are really meaningful? No, but I think that's normal. I think you do hit a certain age and things start to calm down and more roles for women in my age are fewer and far between. I think, you know, men do have an advantage, but their roles are shrinking as well. But they do have an advantage. You know, human experience is thought to be the male experience. So, yeah, there are less roles for women that are interesting.

But I have great faith. I really am excited about the roles that I'm going to be in in my 70s, 60s and 70s, because I just feel like there's a kind of a hump that you get over. The 50s are this weird lacuna. It's just like, it's just this weird place where you're not quite old enough to to have, you know, to show that life on your face. to be able to jump into, you know, the older actress roles, but you're not young enough to really lead in the same way.

Right. So, and you're still, you know, the sexuality thing is just like, do I continue with the sexuality thing and, you know, or do I not? Or I don't know. It's just a weird time period, and I'm glad that I'm reaching the end of it. And oh, and I realize I don't have to be 70 to play 70-year-olds. So this is very exciting. I can jump in and have a whole new career.

and also to be able to support other actors. I mean, the greatest benefit of doing the Mauritainean was to be in that room with Sahara Rahim, to have him channel Muhammadu's character, and to watch him give the performance of his life, and to hold the space for him. You know, both Shane Lee, and I were just sitting there going, like, do you believe how lucky we are

to be in this room with him? Yeah. And to not mess him up. We're going to not mess him up. That's going to be our goal today. Do not mess up Tahar. And it's just, it's thrilling. he's exceptional in the film and he's getting rightfully a lot of attention as well.

I mean, when I heard about this, you know, it's the right director for this material to Kevin McDonald knows this kind of docu-drama treatment. I'm a huge Benedict Cumberbatch fan as any self-respecting film fan is. What are the questions that you ask Kevin before saying a final yes to this? Like, what's important to reassure you before you put your heart and soul into this one? Well, I instantly knew that as a director, his vision was in the right place. You know, he brings that documentary spirit that he talked about, where he looks at all the characters and looks at all of their points of view and really gives each one of them a voice,

which I think is the mark of a great documentarian. He's really interested in the facts and always starts from the factual basis. But he has this great sense of cinema. So I knew that he was the right guy for this, that he wasn't just going to make a biopic or that he wasn't just going to do a document, but he was going to really look to be inside Muhammad's experience and to let us see the cinema in that. But I guess my biggest concern really was the script of just, you know, you have a lot of material, you have a lot of documents. There's a lot of information. How are you going to condense this in to, you know, rather than a factual chronological story, you know,

how are you going to condense this stuff and get rid of the stuff that's extraneous that doesn't help us understand who Muhammad was? It's interesting because, like, we've heard this, maybe this particular story or other stories like this. We've heard the horror stories about Guantanua Beda, but there's nothing like actually watching a depiction of it and feeling like relating to his character and kind of being in his shoes and seeing it through his eyes. I mean, I think that's the power of the story is like the power of cinema generally is

to relate to people that you may not initially think are relatable. Right, right. And look, you know, this may be one of the first times in a mainstream Hollywood movie and certainly non-mainstream, we have seen this, but in a mainstream Hollywood movie, of really seeing a complete Muslim American character who is complex, who has contradictions, who is, you know, who has a full experience on screen. And I'm just really happy that we were able to do that. Yeah. The woman you play, Nancy Hollander, she's not somebody that the general public will know. It's not like a 99% of people will know what she looks like, know what she sounds like, know her body of work. So it is that kind of weird gray zone for you, I would think, where it's like you want to be respectful to this woman and her life and work. Don't want her and her family to come after you. But you don't, but you also know you have some liberties. Like you're serving the story. You're not doing a Nancy Hollander biopic.

Exactly. So I didn't have to be handcuffed a bit to the reality of who Nancy was. But I was really inspired by her. I mean, she's just this amazing person who, you know, has a lot of contradictory things. And she wears that bright red lipstick always and the bright red lip, bright red nail polish. And she likes to shop and, you know, wear black leather and drive race cars. Like none of that fits with this very, you know, sober, methodical, intellectual, brilliant lawyer that she is. I mean, you just wouldn't put those two things together. So that was intriguing to me. But I was very clear with her. And I said, look, it's not going to be an imitation of you because nobody needs, nobody cares about me imitating you. Be different if you were, you know, Johnny Carson or whatever. I'd watch that.

Yeah. Yeah, right? Jody Foster is Johnny Carson. So I was able to take certain liberties. And I said to her, look, my goal is to, and as is yours, is to serve Mahamu's story. In order to do that, I'd really like to build a character that in some ways expands parts of you and then diminishes other parts of you. So I'm going to be a lot meaner than you are in real life. And she's a lovely person and my character on screen is, you know, a lot ruder and a lot more blunt and hard-edged.

It's interesting. We've mentioned the ensemble. We haven't touched on Shailene yet who, you know, so my day job for many years and continues to be in some portion is working for MTV and covering folks for MTV. So I get to know people like. Shaline through like Fault and Our Stars and Kristen, who I want to get into, too, Kristen Stewart through the Twilight films and stuff. And I'm fascinated. I mean, both of those women are fascinating, smart, and the way they've navigated their careers and lives is very admirable. But I'm also curious because you stand as this like,

you know, the woman on the top of Mount Olympus for the transition from child actor to sensible, sane, smart adult. And for a lot of actresses and young actresses in particular, you know the place you hold for them. So I'm curious, like, when you're on a set with Shailene. Do you know that? Is that her a sense of like innate mentorship? I mean, you're not going to be presumptuous, I think, and be like, I'm going to be your mentor now.

But at the same time, she's looking to you, I'm sure, when she goes on. Maybe, but boy, I learn a lot from Shailene. I mean, I just learned so much from her. She's so brilliant and kind and just so down to earth. I think she's the most real person, actor that I've ever worked with. And I just adore her. We hit it off like a house on fire. And I don't think of her as like mentor mentee.

I really do just think of her as a friend. And maybe that's how I relate to kids in a way. Like when I'm directing kids, I don't, I hated when directors treated me like a baby. And so I really relate to the younger people that I work with like as if we were just regular friends, you know, and that's true of Kristen as well. I mean, there she was, she was almost 11.

She had her 11th birthday. when we were doing panic room, and I had so many fun conversations with her. I just can't think of anyone else that I would want to be locked in a room with for long ago time, Kristen. Like, you know, we'd have fights about, you know, she thought you too was just a boy band. I was like, a boy band. Are you crazy? You know, we would have, we would have these, just these long conversations of just lying

around in the panic room, you know, having long conversations about life. And she's just so much fun. I just love her so much. She's also turned into quite the cinephile. I mean, she's going to be a, she's already directed shorts, and she's, I know, embarking on directing a feature, do you guys continue those kind of like film-centric conversations? Now is peer-to-peer as opposed to, I guess you've always were peer-to-peer, it sounds like from the beginning. Yeah, kind of. I mean, I, we haven't really kept in touch, but whenever I see her,

I'm just so happy to see her, and I'm just so proud of her. And, you know, it's hard for me, too, because I wanted to protect her. You know, she's such a cute. I was pregnant while I was shooting panicking. So through my mind was like, wait, is my kid going to be like this kid? I always had this idea that somehow I would have a cool kid like Kristen. So I feel protective of her, and I felt protective of her at the time, and I worried that it would be a cruel job for her, you know, that it would be. And so I was always concerned about her as she turned 18 or 19, 20 as a child actor, because, you know, it's just so hard.

It's so hard on people. Well, and she was put through the ringer, and we saw what could happen, and you came to her defense in those tough times, I mean, and to see the tabloid culture. or really try to chew her up and nearly succeed. And to see her come out the other side is really impressive. Yeah, and she is coming out the other side. And so I do feel this pride of that seeing all the girls, the girls that have either played me as a child or played or that I was a mom to in the movies.

You know, Jenna Malone, for example, or, you know, Anton Yelchen. I mean, I just loved Anton Yelchen. And I think one of the best moments of making movies as a director for me was sitting in the car with my headphones on. listening to Anton Yelchen and Jennifer Lawrence just say stupid things before the takes, you know, just laughing with them to, they had this such a great intimate relationship, brother-and-sister relationship, the two of them. You were, as I recall, I think you were a part of the doc, weren't you, love Antosha? Yes.

That was such a moving, I mean, tribute to him. I mean, whether a special guy, he was. Oh, my gosh. He really was, yeah. You mentioned panic room, you know, like any self-respecting, xenophile. who's obsessed with Mr. David Fincher. You came to that in unusual circumstances. I know you were supposed to work with him, as I recall prior.

The game almost came about, for whatever reason, it fell apart. So there was no bad blood, clearly. It was just sort of like after that, like, and this opportunity came, you were good, he was good, you were just off to the races. Yeah, we were always on the same team on the game as well. I think we had agreed with everything that had gone down. So we had never lost, really lost touch with each other. I think we always liked each other.

and I so admired him as a filmmaker, so I would have done anything for him. Does he get the credit he deserves as an actor's director? He gets so much props as a technician. Is he serving the actors? I mean, because he's on the record. I mean, we know the process by now on ad nauseum, all the takes, et cetera, and he has a method to his madness.

Does it elicit, in your experience, great performances? Because he does draw out some pretty great stuff from actors. Sure does. I mean, you have to be a certain kind of actor to be able to, respond to the type of direction that he gives. I mean, I always say, David Fincher's a better actor than I am. And sometimes I see, he'll give notes that are so, you know,

they're very specific. And they, you could see that an actor might take them as not giving them, so, you know, being not free. Right. Being constrictive. So he might say something like, you know, turn your head on this line or, you know, when you, you know, when you close your eye, make sure that, you know, your finger is on your head or something. And I love that. I kind of love these restrictions because I have to, it forces me

to find truth and then still, you know, be able to hit these marks that he gives me. So I really respond to that. I really like that. And I, and I do recognize that it makes a very, it makes a different kind of movie than the kind of movie that a lot of actors work with. It's a very intentional film. But I really respond to that. I know, you know, Robert Downey Jr. responds to that. I know a number of actors that I've worked with really respond to that. And then there's some who are like, I just want to, you know, I just want to be free and live and live and breathe. And, you know, I want to, I don't want to have hit my mark. I don't want to accommodate the technical aspects of filmmaking. And there's nothing that I

love more than feeling like you're creating the movie with the director. Right. Well, and the beauty is that, as we well know, there's no one right way to do it on one film you can go one way and it can be rewarding in its own way and it's just suits the filmmaker and the collaboration and it's never it's none of it is ever arbitrary for david he's always got a reason and um he is the smartest guy in the room always he's like he can do it yeah so there's there's never a question i mean i remember once while i was shooting with him and i he he asked me to do a physical thing and i said you know that's going to force us into christin and i being separate and let me just show you what it would look like, okay? This is what it would look like if we did this thing.

I said, so this way that I'm suggesting is gives you more heart and connection and intimacy and gives you like it's a much more, you know, vulnerable experience. And I said, now this other way, let me do the other way for you. This is a little bit more, you know, it's a little drier. It's technical. It's colder. And he's like, hmm, do it the cold way. I was like, okay. Hey, I'm giving the options. That's your job. Choose A or B. Good. Yeah. And so I appreciate that. And his films do have a very specific feeling to them. And I, you know, I love those movies. I'm curious going back through your career when the transition from, like, when did you start to make your own choices as an actor? You obviously had a very close relationship with your mom. She presumably was steering the early career. Did you have much say or was it sort of just like, I'm going to go where I trust my mom? And when did you kind of start to stand up and say like, no, I want to do, I want to do this. I don't want to do that.

Well, I did trust my mom, and we did have conversations about things, and we had conversations about movies that we went to see, you know, foreign films that we went to see, and she'd say, you know, why do you think this character did this? Or, you know, why do you think it was shot this way? Like, so we had a real dialogue about filmmaking. Obviously, when I was five or six, she kind of just picked things for me, and I did them.

But as time went on, I really loved her choices, and I could see in some ways that she was drawn, towards the things that had to do with her life that were and I was in some ways acting out what if scenarios vicarious scenarios for questions that she had about her life and that is a very complicated relationship that single single mothers have sometimes with her children and I know it's a little it's a complicated but I think it made for some good work there came a moment where she was not reading as quickly as I needed her

read. And we had some disagreements about projects. And the one that that sticks out is Silence of the Lambs, where she was just being the devil's advocate, I think, and she was like, you know, why do you want to do this movie where you're the real, the wonderful part in the movie is Hannah Bledctor and your part is kind of, you know, has a mechanical quality to her. And you just won an Oscar and why would you want to do this? You should do something flashy. And we just completely disagreed about it. And after that, I realized, like, oh, I guess I am a grown-up. As we chat today, happy 30th anniversary, because 30 years ago, Valentine's Day, oh, yeah.

Silence of the Lambs came out. Talk about a film appropriate for opening on Valentine's Day, a perverse spirit at Orion and Jonathan Demi. Do you remember an opening specifically on that day and what you thought about that? Absolutely. I thought that was, it was really a balsy move. And they were not sure that this was a good date. In fact, a lot of people thought it was a terrible date. You know, movies like that didn't release in February.

February is supposed to be a month where nobody goes to the movies. And a lot of people thought it was a big mistake. And it ended up, of course, being, you know, a huge, huge boon for us. Just everything about that process, starting with Thomas Harris' book, I think, was felt divinely inspired. felt like we all did our best work and we'll never reach that again. No, it's totally true. When I look back on it, I think I was probably 14 or 15 when it came out, it is like, it's for such a dark film, it is the most rewatchable movie I can think of.

It is the marriage of the script, the production, the unusual choice of Demi as director. I mean, people forget, Jonathan Demi was coming off married to the mob. I mean, at the time, did you think like this is the guy to direct this? Did it seem like an actress? No, I thought it was a terrible idea. And I was really worried, of course, because I was like, you're giving it to Jonathan Demi. You know I want to make this movie and you know he's not going to make it with me. So I had the powers that be at Orion.

I think Mike Metavoy at the time was the head of the studio. And he said, look, I know Jonathan Demi. Jonathan Demi is amazing and you have not even seen the best of what Jonathan can do. So sorry, we're Orion and we believe in directors are more important than anyone. And I was like, okay, I believe that's true too. That's true too. Okay. So, yeah, it was an evolving move by everybody and certainly by Orion to bring Jonathan on, but they knew something I didn't know. They knew his death.

It's so funny to look at the, you know, his infamous, like, use of these kind of staring down the barrel, right, shots for actors. Because when I think of Sounds of the Lambs, I think of that, but I also think of, like, the intimate connection between you and Hopkins in those scenes. I presume Anthony wasn't taking the day off when you were shooting and vice versa. But talk to me about how, like, was it tough to establish that intimacy when you're staring down the barrel and not into the eyes of another actor? Yeah, that technique is a Hitchcock technique

that Jonathan was experimenting with at the time. And he talked about, he read that this was something Hitchcock did, and so that he wanted to use it in the film. And he said, look, the audience will get used to it after a while. Be weird at first, and they'll think, like, what's going on? Why is the actor looking in the camera? And then they'll get used to it. And so we did shoot things two ways, because I heat,

Sometimes he wasn't sure whether it was gonna work or not. You're absolutely right that if there are any scenes where Lecter is staring down the barrel in his close-ups or I am staring down the barrel, I cannot see him. So we used to stand behind the camera and he would hear my voice or I would hear his voice, but we wouldn't see each other. And sometimes that would be for almost a whole day.

On those days when you did that, did it feel like you were in safe hands or this was gonna work or what? It felt weirdly interesting. It felt incredible. incredibly intimate. I mean, you know, I talk about this sometimes having a relationship with the camera, right? And under is, it's, you know, you are in a weird way, without the distraction of having another person, you can have like this hypnotic experience of being intimate with the

camera. And I think that that's what you're getting in the some of those to the barrel close-ups. You're getting this sort of hypnosis feeling. And it feels more intimate than anything. It feels like you're doing radio in a weird way. It's like doing radio. Do you remember seeing the film with an audience back then? Because I vividly remember the reactions a half a dozen times in the movie. Like I've never seen an audience like scream back like in the final sequence when you're rescuing her. Yeah. I was sort of surprised by that. I mean, the first time I saw it, I saw it alone, which was sort of a mistake. And then maybe I saw it a couple of other times after that alone or something.

But then I arranged for there, before the release, I arranged for there to be like a screening of the final cut when the final cut first came out with music. And I arranged it for some friends of mine because I happen working at Orion and they have a screening room and I was like, can I have my friends? And so I think it was a 90-seat screening room and I had like 50 people or something. And it was the first time that I'd seen it with anyone. and I was all super excited about it. I was like, I think the movie's kind of good.

I mean, I hope you like it. And they all came out. I don't know if I even stayed in the movie theater. Yeah, I did stay in the movie theater. And they all came out. And I was ready. I was like, oh, we got food, we got stuff. And they were all like, oh.

They were all kind of, not bummed out, but just like affected. Yeah. And I hadn't anticipated that at all, I guess. just I hadn't anticipated and I knew that if it actually hit my friends like that that we were in for something and that was long before the movie was released and long before I ever saw it with a real movie theater

then of course on the day that the film was released I went to movie theaters and I was you know I got to see the feedback a little bit I went to a couple movie theaters and saw the feedback and it was it was strange the one other thing I wanted to ask on the silence front that I'm just curious about we're as you well know as a student of film in recent years

we're in this kind of like legacy sequel culture. And obviously, Anthony has reprised the role a few times. I find it difficult to believe, Jody, as somebody that follows this stuff, that they have not come to you and said, let's revisit Clarice Starling in her 50s and see where she's at. Has that discussion ever happened?

And have you even vaguely entertained the thought? Clarice in her 50s has never happened. But, no. But the, look, we were all really inspired by Thomas Harris' book. You know, that's why Sansa Lams is great, is because of Thomas Harris' book. And all of us, whether it's Ted Talley or, you know, we all know that that's why we were able to give the performances that we gave,

you know, was because of the truth of that book and the beauty of that book. So it's really hard to, you know, it's hard to imagine unless it is, you know, gangbuster fabulous. It's really hard to imagine reprising it because somehow it diminishes the effect of that wonderful movie. You know, there's been some stuff of the years of, you know, reprising her. But both Jonathan and I, I think, were disappointed not to do the sequel based on a Thomas Harris book. You know, he waited 10 years for Thomas Harris to write the second book, not the second book, but write the book in the series.

And it was a big disappointment for us that we weren't able to make that film. Did you ever watch it or was it too close to? I have never watched that one, interestingly. That one I've never watched. I have seen other ones, but I have not watched that one. I did actually really like the Red Dragon reprisal. I actually, I was like, oh, okay, there's a lot that I really liked about that. And I really love the first Red Dragon, too.

And I thought it really benefited from having somebody come in and rethink it. Yeah, yeah, they cast the hell out of the remake of that one. Yeah, they really good. Ray Finds was amazing. Oh, amazing. Yes. Your directing career, I definitely want to talk about a bit because, you know, it's, and that coincides with Silence of the Lambs, Little Man Tate, I believe, around the same time. Alan Parker had a famous amazing quote about you and Bugsy Malone saying that if I had been run over by a bus, I think

she was probably the only person on the set able to take over as direct. You were probably 13 at the time. Were you secretly plotting even at 13? Were you kind of absorbing everything, knowing this is when they were up, I'm going to get there. I definitely wanted to direct. I remember being six and doing a TV show, and the actor came on that day, and he was the director of that episode, and I was just freaking out.

I just couldn't believe that actors could be directors, and I thought, oh, my gosh, that's what I want to do when I grow up. And, yeah, so it's something that I always knew that I wanted to do. I just didn't know that I was going to be able to. I didn't really know any women directors. I think when I was about 13, Lena Bert Ruehler,

I saw my first Nina Bertmiller movie and then that kicked up the interest again because I thought, wow, she's a woman, she's a director, she can do it, maybe I could too. So that's why she has been kind of meaningful for me. Yeah, I mean, I'm always watching. It's my film school.

I didn't go to regular film school. This was the film school that I had, and it's why I've always been so singularly focused on directors and wanting to understand how they do what they do. And I think one of the greatest thrills that I get now is being able to stand behind a directors shoulder and understand why, how he gets to the decisions that he gets to. Looking at the films you've made, they're tough movies, not even, not in the even like the

conventional way like this was like a $200 million movie that was like really embattled or whatever, but like they're not obvious movies. I mean, the Beaver, Little Man Tate, the movies you haven't directed. I mean, I followed, you know, floor plumb and I remember, you know, the one of your refinstall movie that you tried to get going. These are all tough projects to mount. It must take a lot out of you like frankly so clearly the love is there or else you wouldn't get back on the horse every few years yeah it's it's um it takes everything out of you because it comes from you you know and i i just feel like what's the point of making a movie as a director if you can't 100% defend it with everything you have in your body and um you know these movies are the story of my life

and they're everything that i have to say on the subject and that doesn't mean that they're good it just means that they are 100% true to me. And, you know, I have to take the years that it takes to shape those films in order to kind of download my spirit onto them. And, you know, that's a big undertaking. So, yeah, I don't do as many movies as a lot of people do because I have a different reason for directing than a lot of people do. Did Little Man Tate affect your relationship with your mom in any ways?

Obviously, part of that is autobiographical. I mean, in literal sense, but this is about a mother. child relationship, a child that is a prodigy. What did she think of Little Man Tate and did it change things in the relationship at all? Yeah, she really loved the movie and I think she was very proud of the film and and I think the film is a is a loving tribute to that relationship between a parent, certainly a mother and a child. And he has two mothers in that movie in some ways. You know, he has the Diane Weiss character and my character. So he's pulled between two different ideas. And I felt like that symbolically was what I felt like growing up, that I was pulled

between having a somewhat, I don't know if it's a prodigious brain, but a brain that was doing prodigious things and a heart that was feeling prodigious things. And I was torn between the two and I thought I had to choose between them and there was a lot of conflict with that. And that kind of in the film is demonstrated by these two women that are pulling for him and saying, no, your mind, know your mind, know your mind, no your mind. You've admirably, I think, stood by friends who have had troubles that you've collaborated with over the years, infamously. I mean, the Beaver stuff coincided, sadly, with a lot of stuff that Mel was going through. And that publicity tour sadly ended up being like the Mel Gibson apology tour for you, right? I'm sure that

colors that experience. I mean, Downey's talked about Home for the Holidays, and that was a really tough time for him. Talk to me about, like, as a filmmaker and as a friend, seeing someone going through that what that experience was like for you specifically on that film because it's just amazing to see his journey and the other side he's come out on too. Yeah. Well, you know, people, we're family members. That's what we do on movie sets. You know, we're family members and people make mistakes. And, you know, I sometimes I say to my kids, I say like, listen, if you ever do something terrible, like you, I don't know, I shouldn't say it because this is going to be a bad quote, but, you know, if you blow up a building, just know that I am going to bring you to the

police station, and then I'm going to visit you in your cell every single day, and I'm going to get you an awesome attorney. But I am going to, I am going to take you to the police station. Like, you don't stop loving somebody just because they make bad choices or they are struggling. You know, so that, that's, that's been very true. I mean, with Downey, like, what's interesting is both for Downey and for Mel Gibson, just because you mentioned those two, making movies has been very healing for them. And I really believe that what Mel brought to the Beaver, what he expressed as a character, the bravery that he showed to be a broken man in that movie, somebody who is totally and completely lost and is struggling with how to rebuild again, you know,

struggling with his mental illness. That was just such a brave performance. And I will always be grateful for that. And I think it was very healing for him. One other movie, just as a fan, it hit me at the right time and the right space. I'm a fan of Zamekiso is your work with him on contact. I know Carl Sagan, who we lost in the middle of that production was a huge part of the reason for doing that, and his spirit is in that film. I thought to George Miller, actually, recently, and I know he was going to direct that. Were you on board when George was going to direct, and did it change a lot from George's interpretation to Zamekazes? Yeah, originally it was a George Miller movie and we got very close. We went to the, he went to the studio. He had everything

figured out in terms of the plates that he would need and the, all the, the, they didn't have CG then, but the special effects that they needed. And this, yeah, it did not work out. Did not work well for George. Was it a dramatically different film? Yes, it was a dramatically different film. It was very much in the spirit of Lorenzo's oil, which is a film that I loved, you know, it almost had an eraser head quality to it. I mean, it was a very different tone. It was an elaborate, beautiful art film. Wow.

Where there were moments where, you know, you'd follow ants. You'd just be with the ants. You know, it was really, really a trippy, wonderful movie. And when they decided to go in a different direction and Zemeckis came aboard that he took a year. You know, Zemeckis took a year, rewriting the script and calling people at Nassau and really grounding it in the factual, grounding it in facts.

He wanted to start fresh and I appreciate that movie too, but I also know that somewhere out there would have been an amazing George Miller movie. Oh yeah, I mean, he's the definition of a mad genius. I will follow him to wherever ends he takes us. You're directing a career going forward. You've made a lot of, I mean, you did Money Monster in recent years, but you've done a lot in streaming as everyone is. Everyone who's smart knows that's where the creativity and the opportunities are right now.

Are you of a split mind? I know I am as a film fan. I love streaming and I'm devouring all of it. I'm also like, I mean, I feel a personal existential crisis about theatrical. I don't know what movies are going to look like in a year, little, and in five years. As someone that's lived their life, loving movies, like, just going to be a sense of where your head's at in the negotiation between streaming and theater. We all need to go into group therapy a little bit about it because, you know, we have

nostalgia about sitting in a movie theater because it shaped our lives. And, you know, we believe that that is the primo experience of having movie experiences as being surrounded by people and living that and community together and on the big screen and the immersion of that. But, you know, new times. So we knew they were coming. It's been happening for the last 15 years.

You know, we knew that the films were being ghettoized into two categories, one, which was the over $100 million big franchise films that the studios felt comfortable betting their whole, you know, five-year plan on. And that the rest, the most of the most, movies that were real narrative would be into the streaming platform. And we knew that was coming. And that's exactly what happened.

And I mean, I don't know about you, but right now it's like I'm so much more excited by movies that are coming out on streaming than anything else that they kind of both made their beds and laid in it. I mean, the studios like to point their fingers at streaming and saying, it's your fault. No, you did it. You, you know, you created this technology and the platforming systems. specifically come out and say, yeah, well, you were making terrible movies because you didn't believe in narrative and in the audience's taste. So, too bad. Everybody left you. They're all

pointing at each other, and it was a confluence of events that basically changed the moving habits of filmgoers. And I just don't know that they're ever going to come back. Some folks, you got caught a little flack a few years ago when you were honest, and I think that's totally fine. Superhero movies aren't for everybody, but you were kind of like, you know, but these $200 million superhero movies maybe aren't made for me and they're not made for everybody. Have you, do you still follow that path? Have you found anything in that realm that that you find stimulating intellectually, emotionally, or? I think they're great.

I just don't think every movie has to be that. And some people want that, you know, if you're going to pay $50 or whoever much it costs you now to go to a movie theater, you're going to want to sit in a seat with your veins out and just, you just want to have like, you know, you want to have this massive immersive takeover experience where your body has taken over and that's what people have grown to want from that experience and I get that I mean I love you know I loved Iron Man I love the original Iron Man and there's there's movies that I think are really well done and well crafted and it's just this those aren't the movies that change my life yeah so I want to make the movies to change my life and if I have to make them on a phone this big

I'll make them on a phone. Are the one, the next directing opportunity, is it something that you've explored in the past? Is it like, would you ever go back to Flora Plum or Leni Refinstall or those kind of put the budget? No, those ships sailed. I struggled with them for many years and those ships kind of sailed, I think.

And certainly, certainly for Flora Clum, there were other movies that were made where they took them directly from our film. You know, they just, yeah. So there's no point in making them because somebody else took all our art, our stuff and made them already. Lenny maybe will be made by somebody else

I've definitely grown too old to play money Maybe I'll play the 100 year old Lenny Maybe that'll be I'll play her at 100 There you go And what is what stuff have you been watching lastly Just in the streaming space series or film wise That is excited of you inspired you You know we're at the Oscar release phase

So I've got a ton of movies that I want to watch And a ton of documentaries too I mean that's this has been That's been a wonderful byproduct Of the streaming revolution has been that people have discovered documentaries and now they have a place in our lives, which is great.

I'm trying to think, I mean, you know, the movies of this year that have really touched me, well, you know, Nomad Land, I suppose. They're all going to be the movies that we know about. This documentary time, I thought, was just amazing. What have I been watching on streaming? I haven't been watching streaming at all. I kind of got bored with watching streaming.

I saw everything that I wanted to see, and now I'm waiting for new content. Well, luckily we know it's coming because there is an embarrassment of riches. And I was worried the well would run dry with this crazy year we've had. But clearly they've found protocols that work and we're going to, we're not going to. Yeah, I guess. A lot of my friends are starting now. They're starting shooting now and they're on TV series and stuff and getting their, you know,

noses prod every other day. And it seems to be working. Excellent. I really do appreciate the time today. Happy 30th, Silence of the Lambs, however, you've celebrated it in your home. I'm sure that it's an annual holiday. And, yeah, as you can tell, I'm such an admirer of your work

and the way you've also lived your life. So I appreciate you sharing a little time with you today to reminisce. Oh, my pleasure. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast,

and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougon. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar Wright's The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.