Happy Sad Confused - Joe & Anthony Russo

Episode Date: January 22, 2018

Direct from Park City, Utah, "Happy Sad Confused" welcomes the directing tandem that is Joe and Anthony Russo. On this, the 20th anniversary of their first visit to Utah, the brothers reflect on the difference Slamdance and the mentorship of Steven Soderbergh meant to their careers way back when.  Flash forward to present day and the brothers have a tremendous challenge on their plate, helming the next two "Avengers" films. Josh talks to the Russos about what we can expect out of "Infinity War" and the still mysteriously untitled 4th Avengers film, plus their take on Star Wars, and a Black Widow movie.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get after him or have you shot You mean blow up the building From this moment on None of you are safe New episodes every Wednesday Wherever you get your podcasts Today on HappySack and Fused, directors Joe and Anthony Russo

on returning to their roots at SlamDance and the latest on directing Avengers Infinity War. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of HappySac Confused. This is a dispatch from Park City, Utah, guys. That's right. As I tape this, I am in the cold, cold, delicious snow of Park City. It's day three of Sundance, as I sit here today. I'm sitting literally

in front of a roaring fireplace at the lovely kind of condo that I'm in with a bunch of friends. You know, this is how Sundance is done. You just sort of like, you make do, you figure out a way because everybody's just here for the movies. They're not necessarily here to like spread out. I'm sleeping on a couch tonight. It's not. the, you know, it's a very nice place, I have to say. But it's not about the accommodations. It's about the movies and the folks you get to see here. And this has been a treat for me. This is my 12th consecutive Sundance Film Festival. Of course, Sammy, sadly, is not with me here here for the festival, nor for the introduction. Apologies, I'll keep this brief so that we can

get to the main event. Suffice it to say, you know, I'm seeing a lot of very cool movies that I'll detail in future shows, but while I was here, I felt like I had to catch up with at least a few people. So I'm recording a few podcasts here. This is the first of a few. And this is two guests for the price of one, a gentleman that I've never spoken to on the podcast. I've certainly caught up with for their various projects.

And these are maybe two unlikely people to be at the Sundance and slam dance film festivals, Joe and Anthony Russo. of course nowadays they are best known for directing the last two captain america films and now directing avengers infinity war plus the upcoming untitled fourth avengers movie so they are they're kind of ruling the roost over at marvel right now and the reason they're here in park city the reason i got a chance to catch up with them today uh was that they got their big break here in park city, not at Sundance, actually. I mean, for those I don't know, in addition to the Sundance Film Festival, which you guys have probably heard of, obviously started by Robert Redford

and is notorious for launching the careers of Quentin Tarantino and Soderberg and Robert Rodriguez, there's another festival here that is also very acclaimed and has launched many great filmmakers, including Christopher Nolan's first film was at Slam Dance. And yes, Joe and Anthony Rousseau's first film was at Slamdance. It's kind of like the alternative film festival to Sundance. In the same space, smaller venues, the filmmakers are even more green, and the films maybe are even a little bit more weird, but it's a great festival in its own right. And Joe and Anthony Russo came back this slam dance to be recognized for their work. They were given an award, and they also launched a fellowship to fund future filmmakers

and kind of sponsor and mentor them. We talk a bunch about their beginnings in their film careers and why they feel like it's so important to kind of pay it forward and mentor other young filmmakers. And of course, we also got a chance to geek out a little bit, a fair amount I should say, actually, about Avengers Infinity War and what we can expect in that one. And also the rumors floating around about what we're going to see in the fourth Avengers film. Will time travel be involved? Who knows? Will Captain Marvel be there? Who knows, I asked those questions. So stay tuned for their responses. These guys, I was saying to somebody earlier today, for guys that are directing the biggest films on the planet, they really

have great heads on their shoulders. They're just, they're film geeks, but they're also just very chill, cool guys. And I had a blast talking to them. This is an abbreviated podcast. I know you guys are used to hearing me talk for about 45 minutes, to an hour with our guests. here in the middle of Sundance and Slamdance, it's just too frenetic and crazy. So this is like a 20, 25-minute conversation, but we cover a lot of ground. And I think it's safe to say that hopefully around the time of Infinity War, we'll try to make it happen to have them in for a longer conversation. So without any further ado, I'm going to go to that conversation. I'll talk a little bit more about what's been going on here at the Sundance Film Festival, what I've been seeing in an upcoming podcast episode, some really cool conversation.

is coming your way. And you know what I'm going to say before I toss to the conversation. Go to iTunes. Review. Rate. Subscribe. Subscribe. The reviews in particular really help. And you guys, I've noticed that you guys have been starting to contribute more and more reviews. And they're very much appreciated. And it's not for me. It's for people to notice the podcast. The reviews help. So if you have a second, go over to iTunes and toss over a review about the show. And that would be much appreciated. Anyway, in return for that kindness, I give you this conversation with Joe and Anthony Russo coming back to slam dance 20 years later. Here it is. I've been welcomed into Joe and Anthony Russo's posh pad and slam dance. Good to see you guys.

Great to see you. So this is exciting. I mean, I was asking you guys, when the last time you were here was partially because really the reason you're here is you have an amazing history with slam dance. I would imagine, taking back 20 years. Where were you at in your lives? What did slam dance mean to you back then in terms of where you were at? Let's see. We had just made our very first movie. We spent about three years making a feature film together in Cleveland,

you know, on a super micro budget. It was the kind of experience where we were, You know, we had a few collaborators, but we were doing a lot of the work ourselves on the film. So we were basically learning how to make film while we made the film. Right. And we would, like, it took us three years because we'd make the film a little bit, and then we'd run out of money. We'd go back to work for a while, and then we'd, you know, pick the movie back up again. But long story short is, there's not a big filmmaking community in Cleveland, especially at that time.

And so we were kind of, like, you know, out in the wilderness. And so slam dance was a very important. And that was kind of our first contact with the larger film world. Yeah. And it was a very important experience for us. And the fact that we found a road here was kind of a miracle. And then the fact that we found a road beyond here was kind of a miracle. And you guys found not only exposure here, but mentorship really came out of this festival, too.

That's fair to say. And none other than the great Steven Soderberg. And you're paying it forward. Obviously, you're back here this year being honored, but also starting this kind of fellowship, from what I understand, right? That's right. We were inspired by Soderberg to make a film. There was a series of Cinderella stories that were occurring up here in Park City through Sundance in the late 80s, early 90s. Stephen included Rodriguez, the brothers McMullen. It was a series of filmmakers who had emerged out of Park City with suddenly very large careers out of them. and so we made our film it was in the hopes to follow that path and luckily

Stephen Soderberg walked into the screening of our movie and changed the trajectory of our careers and we owe everything to him in that moment that he walked into the to our film at slam dance so for us this is a carmic debt we owe to the universe

we have to pay it back and now we're in a position to start a fellowship and it's going to be annual and we're going to support a filmmaker and try to hold the door open for someone annually and try to return the favor to the filmmakers and to the universe

that Stephen gave to us. I mean, I would imagine, you know, you guys have obviously had so many exciting opportunities in the last 20 years and the way your careers have, like, kind of evolved like no one could have predicted, I'm sure, including the two of you, That being said, I wonder, like, going back to the slam dance experience and getting to know Steven, like, does anything compare to those like first kind of like breaks, those first moments when like someone that you revere, like Soderberg, is willing to kind of validate you and say, let me take you to the next level and teach you some stuff?

Well, you know, for us, it was even more heightened than you would think because that first movie that we made pieces was a very unusual movie. It's a very odd movie, very experimental, very extreme in tone and style. It's not the kind of movie that appeals to a lot of people. So there is a, you know, we basically started that the journey with that movie is when it was ready to show, we brought it to the independent feature film market in New York City in September. And basically they prep you at that market and they say, you know, people are here to buy films or they're here to program films at other festivals. People are going to walk out of your theater.

Don't get offended. They're not here to watch the whole movie. So, you know, you get prepped in any way. Our screening starts. We have a full theater at the Angelica. And by the end of the screening, two-thirds of the theater is empty. And so the last third that are trickling out

after the movie's over, one person stops. His name is John Fitzgerald. He's one of the founders of the Slam Dance Film Festival. He says, hey, I really dug your movie. I think you should apply to our festival. So we sort of have this shoe string save that like gets, ends us getting us to slam dance. And then we had a very similar experience here at slam dance.

So we came into Park City. We came with a lot of family members and friends to promote the film and get people in the theater. We had two full screenings. And then slam dance was over. And it was, we didn't really have any response to the films, except for about a week after the festival when we got a call from Soderberg. So, yeah, it was, you know, I mean, we can never state how important it was those two events.

you know, to find a road here to slam dance, and then for Stephen to make a connection with us and help provide a road forward from slam dance for us. I mean, it's, you know, we can't overstate it because there was basically nothing else going on. When you guys, you know, and you're very active in terms of producing, and I know you just announced financing for another independent film yesterday, right? And between that and the fellowship, you're interacting with a bunch of younger filmmakers that are coming into their own, trying to find their own path. I mean, are there go-to kind of like, you know, watchwords that you try to kind of instill in them or pitfalls that you're

trying to tell them to avoid that you guys encountered along the way? What are, like, the initial conversations with, like, a young filmmaker that you, you see a germ of talent in that you want to guide in the right way? I mean, it's a, it's a different landscape than when we made our film. Yeah, totally. You know, we had to shoot on 16mm. Cameras were expensive. Film was expensive. You know, we had to ship it to New York, which was expensive to get developed. I think after we shot our first movie, the negative actually sat in our refrigerator for six months. Well, we tried to get another credit card to get the film developed. And then once we got it developed, we screened it on our garage wall. And...

Are you making movies in the 1880s? We had... And then the train came out of the screen. and everybody screamed. When you use 1880s equipment, it's very cheap. That's right. We then, it's crazy, we had to drive to New York City with a U-Haul truck and pick up a steamback and drive it back to Cleveland. This weighs hundreds of pounds. It wasn't a U-Haul, it was our cousin's van.

We borrowed our cousin's van. And then had to carry it up two flights of stairs with three of us. I mean, it took us hours to, and we went a stair or two at a time. So it's a different landscape. You know, you have an iPhone now. Steven Soderberg is shooting a horror film on an iPhone. You know, you can present content for free. You have free distribution on YouTube or Vimeo.

You can access viewers in a very different way than you can. So what we always encourage young filmmakers to do is shoot, shoot content. It's very cheap for you to do it. It's much easier than when we got into the business. And we've actually discovered a lot of talent on the Internet over the last decade. including Donald Glover and T.J. Miller. So, you know, there is a path forward by doing good work and just getting your work scene.

I mean, you know, you allude to, like, the differences we're at versus 20 years ago, and, you know, I've lived through this myself as a film geek, and it's just fascinating. I've been coming to Sundance and slam dance for 12 years now. And, yeah, the landscape is crazy. I mean, like 80% of the great films here are going to probably end up on Netflix, or Amazon and barely get a theatrical distribution.

And you guys have really done a great job of keeping your, you know, your toe in independent film while making the most ginormous, you know, blockbuster entertainment is known to man. I mean, I'm just curious, like, just headset-wise, where you're at, because you're obviously steeped in this, and you love film and you love the theatrical experience. Is it general optimism or pessimism, sort of where we're at, and the theatrical experience for things that aren't necessarily shot on IMAX, like an Avengers movie. Like, we want to see the intimate dramas on the screen, too, sometimes. Everything changes, you know, and I think you have to embrace change.

Change is compelling. I mean, I think, you know, we, of course, grew up going to the theater, and that was our experience of filmmaking. We, part of our story is, you know, we lived around the corner from a cinema tech, and that's our backstory. That's how we learned about filmmaking was watching a bunch of foreign films at a cinema tech, the Cleveland Cinema Tech. You know, but I do believe that, you know, I've got four kids, and the way that they absorb narrative is very different than the way that I did.

And the content that they consume is very different. It's different lengths. They're used to viewing things that, you know, my vine's defunct now, but my daughter grew up on Vine. And those are six-second narratives. Pretty compelling and funny. So I think it's going to change, and it deserves to change. That's the whole point. You can only tell so many stories in a two-hour cinematic structure, you know, before it becomes incredibly predictive.

And I think we've reached a saturation point where we have so much content that it is predictive. And why Netflix and Amazon, you know, became so compelling over the last two years is that you're getting 10 episodes all at once. That's basically a 10-hour movie. Right. Right. So it's sort of a... The novelistic approach to storytelling. Exactly.

And I can sit there on a Friday or Saturday and consume 10 hours of content. Yeah. And really, it's much... It's much more immersive than going to the theater and doing two hours of content. So I think this is all good and very healthy. And frankly, you know, I'd say that the independent scene is probably more well-funded than it ever has been in its history. There are more avenues now. There are for to go.

For sure. And you can go to Netflix and Amazon and actually get a really unique movie made for a considerable budget. Yeah. You know, where in the 90s, that would have been cobbled together through foreign sales and some, you know, crazy actor who was, you know, who was domestically, interesting 15 years before you're moving. You need to be paid in cast. In a brown paper bag.

Exactly. So it's a... Nicholas Cage is here. It's a really unique environment and we should embrace it. Totally. And, you know, look for young filmmakers who are

storytellers who are going to help us move it forward in a way that's unexpected. If you'll indulge me, you guys, I feel like you finished shooting, right? At least the principal photography. of your two Avengers films, correct?

We actually fly out of here tonight to go to Atlanta to have our last day of shooting tomorrow. Oh, my gosh. Amazing, amazing. Quite a journey this has been, and we'll continue to be for a couple of years. Talk to me a little bit. We first, you know, the public at large got a chance to see the first trailer, which was, you know, ginormous, but also probably felt like the tip of the iceberg for you guys. Are you guys consciously working with marketing to kind of hold back a lot from the

the trailers and stuff. Like I would think there's an embarrassment of riches, but you don't want to give it all away. Yeah, it's a very hard line to walk. And we have, you know, Disney marketing is, they're amazing people, and we have a great relationship with them. So, yeah, I mean, everybody has the same goal.

You know, you want to protect the, you know, that thrill that people have in the audience, hopefully we'll have in the audience when they sit through the movie for the first time. So, you know, yeah, it's a difficult balance. We have a lot of internal conversations about what the right mix is, but for sure.

So, again, I'm not expecting, like, a big spoiler talk here, but we are getting, like, our first glimpses at some of the characters in different forms. You know, we're seeing Steve, that beard got the big cheer at Comic-Con and got a big internet reaction again. Can you, I want to do a little bit about where we're going to find Steve Rogers in this one? Yeah, he's, we mentioned, I think we have mentioned this recently, but, you know, it's no surprise, and I think you'll see it in the trailers that he's embracing the spirit of Nomad.

And it was always our intent from the moment we got involved with that character to deconstruct him. That's what we like. It's what we find interesting. It's what Soderberg responded to doing our initial work is that, you know, we, when you look at a rest of development or community, we're constantly either deconstructing genre or tone or playing with, you know, we like to say it's like being a mad scientist. You get to play in a laboratory and experiment with directions to take narrative in. With the character called Captain America, you know, you have to address the concept of who he is because his identity is tied to his country. Right. So we thought it would be a really compelling narrative if he got into conflict with his identity, with the country.

So the, you know, the notion, the path that he's following is the same path that we left him at the end of Civil War, which is a he's a character without a country. Gotcha. you um it's tough because like you obviously we're trying to avoid spoilers for infinity war let alone the second film that you've shot and as you well know like photos are out there and stuff and there's a lot of conjecture out there and i don't want to know everything of course i want to know some things but i don't want to know everything but i mean how are you guys like are you guys shooting like alts or like different kind of like you know fake scenes or fake deaths or anything like that just to like yeah just to hedge your bets no comment going in the movie. Yeah, there's not enough time. There's not enough budget to see the scene where everybody kills each other. Has it been fun to, you get a chance to depict Carol Danvers for the first time. It's been fun to work with Bree? We may. Is that not official? Depicting Carol Danvers. In theory, would that have been fun to do? It's interesting when you get to bring a, it's interesting when you get to play with characters in this universe because you are

dealing with actors who have been playing parts for, you know, almost a decade. Yeah. And it's interesting to bring new energy into the mix, especially when you're, you know, you're doing this massive mosaic of a story. So, you know, there will be surprises, of course, in these movies. We won't confirm. Okay. Fair enough. We won't. We won't. We won't. Confirm or deny it. But it's certainly going to be some curveballs thrown at the audience. Is there a timeline of when we're going to even know title of the next Avengers film like does that come right out of the release of infinity war do you tee it up or it is uh it is certainly you know um part of the concept of the title is that uh it's it's it's it's advancing the narrative so uh it's we're going to sit on that until we feel the time

is right right um and when people have absorbed uh the first movie enough how do you how do you feel about time travel as a device in film Just curious. Just a general question. Tanger. You know, big fan of the technique. Back to the future. Right.

If done well, you don't want to abuse that power, but you guys, I mean, if I would trust anybody, I feel like I would trust you guys. Look, there's, it's interesting because, yes, their photos always leak, and then there's lots of conjecture about what those photos mean. Certainly there is a very five-minute sequence in Civil War around a piece of technology that was laid in for a very specific reason. So if you go back and look at that film, you may get a hint as to a direction.

Okay. So is this marked the end in your eyes of working with Marvel, these two films, or are you open to more? You know, our relationship with Marvel has been one of the strongest creative relationships we've had in our careers. we're really proud of the movies that we've been able to make with them and we've had an amazing time doing it.

I mean, we haven't talked about doing anything beyond these movies simply because we still have a mountain to climb with these two films. And the one thing we've always really admired about Kevin Feigey and Marvel is they have a very, even though they're building an interconnected narrative through many, many films over many years, they have a very disciplined one movie at a time attitude as well, which I think is very, very helpful to the creative process of fashioning of the individual film. And so, yeah, we're basically very focused on what we're doing now,

but we would certainly be open to working with them. What do you think about the sounds like Black Widow is actually finally getting some momentum? It's crazy exciting, yeah. Right? Yeah, we're very happy for that. I mean, it's such a rich, interesting character. There's so much to explore with a character whose history was as a villain. And I think that, you know, Scarlett does such a great job.

playing that character and people are so used to that character that you forget the character's history totally and so there's a lot of really compelling stories to tell about someone who has a dark past just more general stuff outside of the Marvel universe just as film

fans have you caught up on Last Jedi Have you seen Last Jedi yet? Yeah I've seen it yeah what do you think Yeah we love Ryan Johnson As a filmmaker I tell you When we heard he was going to make that film we uh we sent an email to disney saying it was you know couldn't ask for better

oh my god as a star wars fan i felt like the whole film geek community was like this is the right call it's interesting because he's a brilliant filmmaker and the response has been really really i'm fascinated i myself love the movie and but it has been i guess nothing i mean you guys know this from the marvel universe these fans like it's uh it's a religion they're tough man you can't please them all well it depends

So on your age, too, I, you know, I watched the movie with my 11-year-old daughter, who is a, you know, she's very into serialized storytelling and novels primarily, but she loves the, she loves the bigger story. Yeah. And she was just thrilled throughout the movie, just like connecting, making connections to the larger universe, Star Wars universe. And just to sit next to her and see that sort of, see her, see that sense of discovery and excitement in her was, you know, it was an amazing experience. I think the fault line is, is between new. fans and old fans. It seems to be where it's lining up. And, you know, when you're dealing with the character like Luke Skywalker

historically may be the most famous and potentially popular character in the history of movies. And you change that personality over 30 years, which people change. Sorry guys, people change. Things happen. And so, you know, he took a lot of risks with the film.

It's a very smart film with great transitions and shot beautifully. Totally. You know, so we're very excited. I heard I heard a rumor that you guys were talked to about episode nine. Is that any truth to that? Not at all. We're in the middle of these gargantuan movies.

And I think at Disney smartly thought that they should leave our focus on finishing these films. We're still, we still have to deliver the second Avengers movie, which will, which occupies us through 2019. So we're kind of off the market for a while. They'll be making these Star Wars movies for a long while. Was that a bucket list thing just as like, you know, the kid and you? It's always a bucket list. I mean, I, you know, I spent an entire, the day that Empire Strikes Back opened, I spent the entire day in the theater from 11 a.m. to 11 at night.

And I just sat through screening after screening after screening. So it certainly has a high emotional value in our lives. Yeah. And last thing, we talked a little bit about the TV and the amazing, I mean, I find myself 10 series behind all the things I want to watch. I'm sure you guys are the same way as busy as you are. Is there, either something that you've loved or really respected recently? or something that you'd love to kind of like direct an episode in

or just sort of dabble in. I mean, I think some of the most compelling work is happening in television. Yeah. And it's staggering. Like, it can't get over the level of quality. I can't keep up with it. Two filmmakers who we adore at the moment

who are doing work in the TV space, the duffers are incredible. I thought Stranger Things was brilliant. It was a very unique combination of genre. and advancement and nostalgia at the same time. And I think Noah Hawley is just unbelievable. I mean, it's pound for pound, his storytelling ability is just staggering. And I love watching anything that he does.

Yeah, I don't know about you guys, but growing up, like, I could never have imagined the complexity of, like, treating genre that someone like Noah Hawley is doing in television. It would have blown my mind to think that. It's unbelievable. And I think, I don't know what it is, but it's a, it's the space that, you know, that as it's changing, it's evolving our level of understanding of narrative. And I think people are just getting uber sophisticated at it.

And a lot of the work that's being done by newer voices is highly sophisticated. Totally. And this is why it's hard to get depressed about the changing nature of cinema and indie cinema because the new opportunities are just thrilling. And the work that's being done is amazing. And it'll just continue. I mean, the more opportunities people have this tell stories, the more great stories we're going to have. That's the, you know, that's the way it goes.

That's good. We have to leave on a positive note of a beautiful festival like sound dance and sundance, right? Enjoy your time here. Congratulations on the honor, and I really respect you guys paying forward, you know, what you got out of this festival 20 years ago. And good luck getting out of the snow and back to Atlanta, guys. Appreciate it. Good luck to you. Yeah, good to talk to you.

See, guys. Thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. I'm American history is full of infamous tales

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