Happy Sad Confused - Joe & Anthony Russo, Vol. II (Avengers: Infinity War Spoiler Interview!)

Episode Date: May 7, 2018

SPOILER ALERT: We mean it. Every second of this podcast will spoil "Avengers: Infinity War" so if you haven't seen it yet, this is not the podcast for you. Still there? Great. On this special edition of "Happy Sad Confused", Josh asks all the big and small questions you can imagine about the game changer that is the newest film in the MCU. For the first time, directors Joe and Anthony Russo can spill all the secrets of their much discussed new film. And it's all right here in this spoiler filled conversation.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit RBC.com slash Ion Cards. Today on Happy Sad Confused, Avengers Infinity War director's Joe and Anthony Rousseau spoil everything. I mean it. They spoil everything. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to a very special edition of Happy, Sad Confused. As I said, this is a spoiler special. If you have not seen Avengers Infinity War, don't listen any further this is not the way to do it go see it in a theater with an audience

listen to the gasps and enjoy the the moments that shock you and your fellow patrons because this is the kind of movie that demands an audience experience I've seen the film twice with an audience and it blew me away both times

it's a very bold piece of storytelling these guys really took some chances 10 years into the MCU and it's the kind of film that I think demands this kind of conversation. And I think this was therapeutic in some way, certainly for me, and I think for these guys, too,

to talk about why they did what they did. Why Gomorrah? Why, you know, Loki and Heimdahl? Why that ending? What happens going forward to Cap and the original Avengers, Tony Stark and Thor? A lot of nitty-gritty questions in this conversation, a lot of broad questions in this conversation.

And I think they were as forthright as they possibly can be. They're still holding a lot of secrets close because we do have the conclusion to the story with Untitled Avengers 4. It'll be titled something better than that when it comes out next summer. So in the meantime, I think this conversation will hopefully illuminate and aid your enjoyment of Avengers Infinity War. And hopefully it'll get you just as excited to see it again and to look forward with great anticipation. the fourth installment of the Avengers films and the one that I think will truly both end a chapter

and begin a new chapter for the MCU. Joe and Anthony Rousseau, great guys. I had them on the podcast just a few months ago when I saw them at slam dance and it's just a funny juxtaposition to go from slam dance, this tiny, weird little film festival

in Park City, Utah to the height of Hollywood movie making. And that is certainly the journey of these guys. Look them up. They've had quite the career. and have reinvented themselves as, you know, the blockbuster filmmakers of the day. And, you know, more power to them that they are able to operate on this level. It is a kind of filmmaking that very few can achieve, and they are hitting it out of the park.

It's working with audiences. This movie, as I tape this, is made over a billion. It's probably made a billion and a half dollars by now, and it's doing all right. They're doing good. Anyway, I'll get right to the conversation because there's 45 minutes. spoiler talk on Avengers Infinity. We're waiting for your ears right now. As always, please remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this podcast. Spread the good word of happy, say I'm confused. It makes this podcast worth doing if I know that you guys are listening and

enjoying it. So without any further ado, here they are, Joe and Anthony Russo. rest, but I'm not going to give a rest for the next 45 minutes are in my office. Joe and Anthony Russo, good to see you guys. How are you? Thank you. I'm doing well. I'm doing well. How are you guys doing? Good, good. We're happy. We started rolling cameras in January of 17, wrapped in January of 18, edited Infinity War until

April 7th when we handed it over to Disney for distribution and got on a plane like two hours after we handed the film over and haven't stopped since. So that's where we're at. You're running on the fumes of money burning up in a good way. That's right. Billion dollars

and counting as we sit here. Yeah, I mean, as I just said in the intro, and I said to you guys, it's been about a week and a half when people start to hear this since the movie's been out. So this is the conversation to hear after you've seen the movie. Spoiler

warnings galore. We're going to get into as much as you guys are willing to get into. I know there's a lot that you need to keep close for the next year at least. We'll do another one of these in a year. That's right. Then we can really talk. Then we can really get into it.

But this is a movie that demands, I think, this kind of like second and third look. I saw it for the second time the other day. And, man, it is an achievement. It's also a bold piece of storytelling. And I think a lot of people, myself included, it took a second to wrap my brain around what I had just seen. Because you knew you were taking some big risks in terms of, I mean, we could just list them. I mean, your villain is your protagonist. You kill, get rid of whatever we want to say,

half of your heroes by the end of the film. Or as we like to put it, Thanos saves the universe. Right, it's a whole matter of perspective. Obi-1 Canobi, a certain point of view, right? A lot of your, you know, ostensibly supporting characters are carrying more of the load in this one. You know, Cap doesn't have a huge role.

So I'm curious, I guess, when you started to unleash this on the world, was there a concern that the audience wouldn't go to one of these places? What was the biggest hurdle that you were worried about the audience is getting? There's a certain calculus to the storytelling. And it started in Winter Soldier. And Anthony and I like these game changers. We like deconstructing mythology.

And, you know, end of Winter Soldier. It rips shield apart. End of Civil War. It rips the Avengers apart. End of Infinity War. It rips the Marvel Cinematic. universe apart. So I think we've slowly been leading the audience towards this big revelation or this big climactic moment. And it's important for us because these are the kinds of

stories we like and the stories we like to tell. And I don't know if we know how to tell them any other way, then that there are stakes and bad things can happen. And sometimes villains win. You know, it's a little bit of the world we live in right now. Yeah, certainly. Did any of those things that I just rattled off and you start to read off like feel like an actual risk? that you were, I mean, in comics, yes, the comic audience is kind of used to this storytelling. This is actually the most, it struck me, it's almost the most comic book-y film I've ever seen in many respects. Like, I'm used to as a kid growing up, on one page being on one planet on one side of the universe, and the next page you're on the other side.

So, yeah, a comic audience may be used to this, but a film audience may be less so. I mean, look, this is a great question, but we like to, Joe, and I just like to make a hardcore commitment to serving story and serving character. And what is the most surprising thing we can do? What is the most challenging thing we can do? Where can we take ourselves as filmmakers that we didn't expect to go? That's what we're always chasing because we want to create an experience for the audience and for ourselves that is surprising and fresh and different and exciting. And so I think, you know, everything you're talking about in terms of risks. I mean, I think we knew that the movie was risky, certainly,

but we knew that there was so much more to be gained over the hardcore commitment of putting yourself at risk, putting the movie at risk, putting the franchise at risk, you know, than to be gained over trying to protect those things. Nothing has value unless it has an ending. Right. You know, and this is the final chapters of the book that Marvel's been writing for the last decade. There'll be a new book written after this, but let's, you know, let's end this with a bang. let's do something compelling and thought-provoking. Okay, so let's start to get into some of the nitty-gritty stuff. So the film starts, picks up in some ways off the heels of Ragnarok,

and you're kind of coming mid-battle. Was that always the opening? Was that scene always intended to be the opening? I mean, we had gone through many iterations of this script. There were a lot of different drafts. I mean, the story played out in lots of different ways, and part of what you do in a movie like this, because there is no template for it,

that he's ever taken, you know, this many pre-existing franchises and tried to combine them in one film, so we really couldn't look at anything as a template for it. There was a real discovery process over a course of a year and a half. I think this scene in particular... It was when this scene came about when we really started to commit to Thanos

as the central character of the movie. And the notion that we wanted to smash and grab film, which was a movie that starts at go and doesn't stop until you get off at the end. Right. And it also sets up for the audience that anyone is at risk here because you get lost a bunch of characters right from the first three mistakes are high to know that the stakes were real and that the movie was going to go to a tonally complicated place and you know we do that from jump street thanos dispatches of the you know

the the reigning villain of the marvel universe within five minutes of the opening of the film right and not to mention that very key is that that fight between him and holt which sets up like our you know Our greatest warrior is just pulverized. Yes. Thanos is the gangis Khan of his universe. The Hulk fights through rage and, you know, it's a bit, you know, it's a messy process when the Hulk fights. Thanos is precise and incredibly well trained and, you know, unbeatable one-on-one on a battlefield. So we wanted to illustrate to the audience by dismantling the Hulk graphically and violently that they didn't, you know,

The Avengers, one-on-one or alone, did not have a chance against him. Yeah, and this was something new. Let's talk a little bit about some of the people we lose in those first scenes, because obviously these are all very carefully considered discussions. So Heimdahl, you know, I mean, is that who Thor is referring to, by the way? Later on, he talks about, like, his best friends. Stets to the heart, yeah. Right, okay.

So was, I mean, Heimdahl, and in particular, Loki, who, you know, obviously a fan favored, and we thought we lost a couple times, at least already. No resurrections this time. That's clearly a line that was very important to deliver and say this time, this is it. Yeah. So how did interest? How did Tom take that news? Was that?

I mean, I think it's distressing to anyone who's been working on something for the better part of a decade. But again, I think everyone also understands that you can't continue to play these characters forever. We're not, comics who can keep redrawing characters at, you know, the same age for decades, right? We're all aging. And there are new ideas. There are new ideas and new stories to tell. Look at the incredible success of Black Panther. There's a new direction that the Marvel universe needs to go on that is, you know, speaks to where society is today and how audiences are reacting to storytelling that was not the same as it was a decade ago.

and I think they can make much more interesting choices moving forward when we close the final page of this book. Were those two particular deaths? I mean, you've talked a little bit about, like, you know, Thanos is your protagonist, but Thor almost is. You've talked about how he kind of goes through the hero's journey up to a point. You think he almost is going to fulfill that. He hands it off.

And he should really strip him of everything at the start of this. That's what seems to be the purpose of that in some ways. With Thor, yeah. I mean, look, we love, I think that, you know, we entered the Marvel Cinematic. universe with with winter soldier and there there was one you know one thing that we loved about working with that character of cap in that movie is the fact that he had had everything taken away from him i know he had he's a man out of time he had lost all his loved ones his government that

he used to serve had changed he didn't he didn't have anything to rely on and that's a a great way to get at a very human dimension of the character and thor what excited us about the end of ragnarok was the fact that thor was entering a very similar phase in the destruction of asgard And so we wanted to sort of keep pushing that forward and take everything from this guy and figure out what's left on a humanity level when that happens to a character and then watch him make his road back from that moment. And I think that's, you know, part of the rousing, part of Thor's journey in this movie is that he incrementally works his way back to try to write what has been wrong. And it's the misdirection. You also want to believe that this character deserves this. He deserves to win the movie.

And had he gone for the head, he might have. And, exactly. And, yeah, and seeing it with the audience a couple times, I'm sure you've experienced, I feel like the audience is conditioned, and, like, they're so, like, his re-entrance towards the end, it feels like we know what's, and that would have been fine in some ways. I think the audience would have accepted that and enjoyed it. Okay, so one key loss, I mean, maybe one of the emotional high points

in a film filled with emotional high points is Gamora's sacrifice, or Thanos a Sacrifice of Gamora. Um, so was that done in consultation? I mean, all this is in consultation with Fagie and the brain trust I would think. But like in particular for James Gunn plotting some Guardians of the Galaxy movies, is that something you had to? No, Marvel is very good about allowing every director to have their, their freedom. And, um, you know, there's no like, we basically it is we, we set a lot of story that we want to tell.

And then we present that to Marvel. And we didn't, we got no pushback from that choice. You know, I'm sure that Kevin had a... We didn't have a direct conversation with James about the Gamora choice, but I'm sure that, you know, certainly Kevin did. And there was no pushback on it. So it was, you know... For us, I think, again, at the end of the day,

it's like, and part of the reason we've made four movies with Marvel is that they're very good at, like, allowing each movie to be what it needs to be. And nothing is sacred. And any, you know, they take risks. And they've gotten better at taking risks, I think. We can, you know, illustrated by their run of, Ragnarok, Homecoming, Black Panther and now this movie.

I think that there was a, you know, a change of guard at Marvel quite a few years back that just really allowed for more significant creative freedom. And it's highlighted our time there. So they've been great about allowing us to make really extreme choices

and, you know, game changers at the end of each of these films that we've worked on with them. And they're all deconstructionists, where we're tearing apart things that they've built up left and right. So they've been super supportive and I think they realize that this is an innovator's market

and that what's driving theatrical film going now is social media and films that drive a conversation on social media are proven to be the most successful films and certainly the intent with a movie like this is to

create provoke thought and provoke conversation mission accomplishing but you know Kevin and Marvel have a tremendous discipline that we've admired ever since we started with Winter Soldier is that they have this philosophy and it's it's it's it's I think it's the key to all their success is they treat it one movie at a time a lot of people like to think that okay oh there's some grand

plan and it's all evolving and it's all laid out it's like there is a very very loose plan that frequently changes radically you know it's like and but they they know that every movie needs to have the freedom to become the most surprising uh uh uh satisfying, interesting version of what it wants to be. And you can't let future ideas, the possibility of future ideas hamstring. Yeah, you have to make the best movie of the moment. Exactly, and you'll never get to the end of your plan.

Right, yeah. We do see Thanos and Youngomura towards the end of the film, and I believe you said that this is sensibly within the soul stone. It is. It's an orange world that they're in. And, you know, again, because he's on the hero's journey in the movie. And we did point that out that there's a correlating journey happening in the film between Thor and Thanos. Certain characters make very human choices in the movie that are very tragic that shift the direction of the storytelling. Quill makes that choice on Titan when he punches Thanos in the face.

Thor makes that choice when he puts plunged the axe into Thanos's chest. Right. because he wants to tell him that he would get him. You know, that this was, this is a little bit of a... It is. If he had not made that decision, had he gone for the kill, they wouldn't be in the situation. So for Thanos at the end of the movie, this is part of his hero's journey,

is that, you know, we once again put him face to face with the only thing that he cared about where he has to own up to the emotional cost of what he's done in the movie. Would Thor and Quill then seem to have to face that choice in future movie, perhaps, to reckon with that decision? I would think so. I mean, it gives us certainly rich territory to explore with those characters. Right.

So, you know, it begs the question, and it's a hard question to answer. It's an impossible question to answer right now, because we obviously want to retain surprises. But seeing Gomorra in that environment would raise the possibility that she exists in some fashion and could return in some fashion. In that childhood state? Well, and whatever, she seems... I think it's a reflection of her spirit. Okay. Right? And that the, uh, the power required to use all of the stones at once is so significant

that it, it sends Thanos into this dream state. And, uh, you'll notice, I think you see the film, it's, his arm is damaged post the snap. The gauntlet is damaged post the snap. It's the incredible energy required from it. And only because of this strength, uh, is he able to, uh, is he able to survive? actually using the gauntlet in that capacity, but it does create this cathartic moment for him. So a couple moments that have appeared in toys or trailers

or whatever the people have been mentioned. One seemingly significant one is the Hulk burst or armor as a Bruce Banner seeming to turn into the Hulk. Was that something that was shot for this film that you decided to change? Was that something that... Here's the thing is like as part of our process, we do consider a lot of possibilities.

and that is we do that in the script phase we do that in the shooting phase we do that in the editing phase we do we do explore because because these movies are hard and the thing is you have so many different characters in them we always want to make sure that we are finding the best arc for every single character in the ensemble so we do play with a lot of different ideas as we go through the process we're on a journey of discovery with that banner character i mean he's a he's a really interesting character as a jekyllis and hide character. There are two beings that are battling over control of the host body. That's a unique story. It sets them apart from anyone else in the universe because of that, and these two beings hate each other and don't like helping each other. And we thought it would be more interesting to explore Banner as a hero than Banner as someone who whines to get help from his alter ego who he dislikes. So we thought it would be more interesting, choice to take him down a path where the Hulk is not interested in helping him anymore,

that these two have reached an impasse with each other, and Banner has to rise to the occasion. So is that because of that initial battle with Thanos? Is Hulk scared? I think people have interpreted that Hulk scared. I mean, certainly that's not a, I don't know that the Hulk ever, he's had his ass kicked before, you know, and he loves a good fight, but I think that it's really reflective of the journey from Ragnarok is that these two characters, you know, are constantly in conflict with each other over control. Right. And, uh, and, uh, and I think if the Hulk were to say why, it's like,

you know, the banner, banner, uh, only wants Hulk for fighting. You know, it's, um, I think he's, uh, he's had enough. Right. Of, uh, of, uh, of saving Banner's ass. I think sometimes you see the disconnect that you're taught, that you're referencing with toys or, or trailers or whatever the case may be, because, you know, the, the, the work on those has to start so early in the process that it kind of predates where we arrive. The script or even, you know, even, you know, things that we're talking about in the outline phase from a year prior to the movie. Got it.

There's also, like, what would seem to be, like, a money shot in the trailer of cap leading the charge, seemingly in Wakanda. Is that something that, okay, A, you cut out, B, we're going to still see. C, you did as a misdirect in the trailer for whatever reason. I mean, we, we use all the material that we have. at our disposal to create a trailer. We look at a trailer as a very different experience in the movie. And I think that audiences are so predictive now that you have very smart about how you craft a trailer

because an audience can watch a trailer and basically tell you what's going to happen in the film. You know, we've seen, we consume too much content. So, you know, at our disposal are lots of different shots that aren't in the movie that we can manipulate through CG to tell a story that we want to tell in a trailer. For the trailer. For specifically for the purpose of the trailer. and not for the film. Like that, for instance, that shot that you're referencing

was never in the movie in the version that you saw of the trailer. It was never even created for the movie in that version. It was literally created in that version for the trailer. What about the line that Thanos has in the trailers about, you know, having fun?

Having fun is not an anticipated byproduct of this. That was a scripted line from the movie that we replaced with another line that we thought was a little bit more specific to his storytelling with Gamoire. I think he used to say that nowhere to Gamoire when he emerged

from the reality cloak because the ether exposed him. Got it. And I think we change it to something that's a little more specific to the storytelling. There are several reunions and reunions to come in this film and the next film. Bruce

and Nat have a moment, but it's an underplayed moment. There's a very little dialogue there. Was there anything any more scripted? Did it feel like again you're serving 25 characters whatever so it's the necessity of the storytelling but um did that feel like the the moment it needed to be did it feel like that was there different versions of that we what the pace of the film is yeah we explored we explored definitely explored the idea of going deeper into that relationship um but one thing we loved about the movie

and we tried to structure it this way from the get-go is we wanted a relentless pace we loved the idea that Thanos was just one step ahead of them at any given moment, and they were doing everything they could to try to keep up. And that, the nature of that propulsive narrative made it difficult, not just us as storytellers, but also I think for the characters themselves to have such a moment that you're talking about. You know what I mean? So I think that that's something that's still hanging out there. And it's been two years. I think that they both have processed that relationship in their own ways and, you know, while there may be still, you know, they may still relate to one another, I think they've moved past it.

And we felt like, you know, that we could deal with it in just a nod and look to each other. You've got good actors, so you can convey a lot in that. Exactly. Maybe the most burning question, Scarlett Witch's accent. What do we have to say about this? She's just acclimating to? No, we have intentionally tried to, and that's, yeah, she is acclimate. We have intentionally tried to strip that accent away for a couple of reasons.

One, as you'll notice at the beginning of Civil War that Black Widow was training her how to be a spy. And two, she has now been on the run. And one of the most distinguishing characteristics that she has is her accent. Right. So if you're going to try to disguise yourself or hide yourself or not be caught, you're going to try to limit those, just those trigger warning. that would make it easy for someone to identify you, which would be inclusive of her accent.

Clearly, you know, Black Widows a Redhead is an incredibly distinguishing characteristic for her is why she has blonde hair. Cap, you know, we've seen Chris Evans walk around in public with a beard and a mustache, and nobody recognizes them. So, you know, simple things you can do to your appearance that just take... Although not anymore, for...

But take about 90% of your visibility away, you know? And for us, it was very intentional that we would just keep stripping that accent down to show her acclimating and hiding. Your post-credit scene is tantalizing in that, you know, it queues up a character we were very excited to see, and she's going to get her own film before we and see Avengers floor, Captain Marvel. Was there ever a thought, discussion, anything of actually seeing her in that, or was that the extent of it? In Infinity War in the trailer? No. No. We'll save a review for it.

favorite review. We also wanted to, you know, it was very important to us to, very, we wanted to commit to this ending very hard. You know, we didn't want to go past the ending very much. And we considered not doing any tags. Yeah. For that reason. I thought maybe it was too brutal. You know, everything's about trying to find balance. There's a theme here, definitely. Can you say how integral that character is to your next film? I mean, all these characters are, it's hard to talk about the next one. We're going to keep that one. We're going to protect. the secrets of that one as much as we did of this one. But she, look, she will be a part of the MCU at that point. And, you know, again, part of the promise of these movies is that they are a road forward for all the films. Is there a sequence you can pinpoint in this film that changed most dramatically from the script that you arrived on set with? That's very interesting because, you know, it would be easy to point to it in Civil War.

like the airport sequence in Civil War was a sequence that changed a lot as we continue to work on it through prep production and then all the way through post. There's a lot of improvisation in the movie. I would say that a lot of the scene between Pratt and Hemsworth was improvised

on set. And it's an evolving our process of improvisation is we shoot the script for two or three takes then we'll go off script for two or three takes and then we'll try to take the best pieces that we've discovered and reshape them back into a narrative and then do two or three more takes. So a lot of that first meeting between Thor and the Guardians was a lot of interplay

between Pratt Hemsworth and Batista improvised quite a bit on the movie as well. You, many of the Marvel films end with kind of the tag, the Captain Merkel will return, et cetera, will return, this you've got Thanos. It's his movie. Sometimes you can hear that. I know. I felt it. Here you feel it.

Is he, again, I know you don't want to go too much of detail. Is he your protagonist in the next film? Well, again, we don't want to go into detail with it. But, you know, he was certainly the protagonist in this film. Well, he had the protagonist arc in the movie. No, you know, it's... He survived to one. He's still alive in the MCU.

Many have noted, and you guys are too smart for this to be an accident, that in part we're left with the... core original Avengers. Interesting. For your first time you've considered this? You don't rip? Wow. That's a compelling idea. Isn't it?

Especially when you're bringing this all to a close. But it does, well, yes, okay, I don't know how to get more out of you than that. But it does strike me as, you know, as an amateur, you know, lover of movies and and story structure. In particular, I think of, like, you know, Cap Thor and Tony Stark and their arcs through their individual films and their Avengers films. And it seems like, you know, my guess,

and you can confirm or deny or ignore, is that we are seeing sort of the ultimate end of their arcs by the end of your next film. I mean, you know, this film pointedly, it seems like Tony talks about marriage, and having a family. Thor, we've talked about, has been stripped away of everything. Cap is an insurgent now.

He's coming out of exile and maybe trying to find his new life. Is it safe to say that we are headed towards resolution for those three characters in particular? Yeah, I mean, we describe it as that, you know, again, if this is the first decade of this Marvel Universe was a book, these are the final chapters of the book. A new book will be written beyond this. book, but certainly there's, there's going to be some endings and some new beginnings. Yeah, even for those three characters, I mean, we handle every one of them differently. Everybody is on their own journey, and everyone is at a different point in that journey.

And for some, like Joe said, it may be an end. For some, it's a new beginning. Here's something I feel like you can confirm for me, in that Dr. Strange, even strange, doesn't have a change of heart and fall in love with Tony and Peter so much that he gives up the time stone. He has given up the time stone because of that one in 14 million eventuality. That would seem to be a safe assumption to make. What I always liked about Strange as a kid when I was reading the comics is that there was

his mysticism and his sense of spirituality and that he seemed to know something that other people didn't. And I think that we certainly tried to infuse the character with that in this movie. you know one of the things I wrestled with the first time I saw it and it's like it's a it's a byproduct of the world we live in now is Black Panther just made a gazillion dollars and essentially he's going to get a sequel or two we know there's a Spider-Man movie coming a couple months after your film next year

is there I think Sony's announced that I'm pretty sure I need to go back to my notes well that's I guess my question is this does this present a a market, even more of a marketing challenge for you and your friends over at Marvel going to this next film. How do you show characters that we may or may not be dead forever or not

and have movies coming out, et cetera? Well, here's the thing. Again, one of the magic things about Marvel is, you know, anything is possible, you know. And I think it's important to remember and to think about this is something that we try to do storytellers, and I know that Marvel values highly, is that, you know, there are many different ways you can go.

There are many different stories you can tell, many different directions, you know, time doesn't always flow in one direction, you know, you can go backwards in time, you can go forwards in time. You can, there's a great variety of things, you know, Akoye could become the Black Panther. There are all kinds of possibilities. Sure, you can become. So, yeah, sure you can, you know. So anyway, I think all you do when you shake things up like, this is that you sort of put the responsibility on the storytellers to come up with creative

solutions that are going to be as exciting or more exciting than the possibility existed beforehand. And I think one thing we've illustrated since we got involved with the Marvel Universe and that I think a direction that we've been pushing it in is that there are real costs. They're real costs involved. And those costs always balance out in some way. We're not going to see Adam Warlock, though. Can we confirm that?

We can confirm that. Okay. He's not part of... Our job is to tell the story of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, not the comics, and we've never been interested in a direct interpretation

of a comic book because you already know the story. One reunion we don't get to see is Tony and Cap feels like there's more to be played out in that relationship. There were ramifications from Civil War. The Avengers actually never are altogether.

Right. And that may have cost them the battle. That may have cost them the battle. In this movie, yeah. Maybe if they finally just put aside their differences and came together, they could finally get this shit done guys. Maybe. Maybe.

It's going to be hard. Is it Avengers Ford getting shit done? Is that the title? They don't know. They have a pretty serious acts to grind still with one another. Unfinished business. Okay. You know, Faggy said that almost more has been made of the Avengers Four title that almost

should be or need me. Is that, is that, is it, it's a title. I mean, I think it's a title. You're right. Yeah, I think that's a good observation. Everything with the fans, which is great about. universe, is that everything is studied, everything has meaning.

If you do go back and you look at the film a second or third time, you will find lots of tidbits and little pieces of information that have been breadcrumbs that have been laid for you. And titles can also be a real source of a debate

and frankly can lead you towards what the narrative is and we're trying to keep people away from what that narrative is. We just wanted them to focus on this one. We don't want them knowing where it's going next and we're going to take our time revealing what that title can you say if it comes from the comics in we we cannot okay no i mean it is it is based in in in the in the in the experience that that people have had up to this point and we just again like joe said it's just part of the

marvel cinematic universe experience yeah if i look at this film in infinity war i i feel like i can boil down this theme of this film to like a few words like you know it's it's about balance it's about sacrifice. Is that, like, is there a line or word or moment in the film that does, was the thematic underlined point of this film for you that felt like it was your thing you kept pointing to? I mean, we did hang on to, for a while, you know, the strongest choices, the hardest choices require the strongest wills was sort of pivotal for a lot of ways. Just because, again, we wanted to ennoble Thanos in some ways.

We wanted to find the hero in Thanos. And the idea that he was sacrificing for a goal that he considered altruistic and that it took strength and it was hard for him to do, there was just sort of like there was something very endearing about sort of flipping that filter onto a villain. That line applies to all the heroes in the film as well. I mean, you look at what Gomorra

ask will to do. You look at what Dr. Strange says he's going to do if it comes, if the choice becomes the Stone or Tony or Peter Parker. Corrects Thanos and says, I think you'll find our will stronger than yours. The, I think the, you know, the theme of the movie is what does what does it cost to be a hero in a complicated world or a world where there are no easy answers and there's a value of doing what's right outweigh the cost and should it and it does. And so that that really is the essential line of the film. Is there anything you can say thematically about the next one that wouldn't ruin anything for fans

in terms of what... About the next one, thematically? Not really, it's just so hard to... Plus, we just, you know, we're starting work on it on Monday. You know, we shot it. It's in the can, but we have a lot of work to do on it. These movies evolve as you, as you edit them. So it's just, it's always better for us to wait until we have a frame of reference

to talk about it. There's an adage, you know, a movie adage that we love that says, you know, you make a movie three times over. Once when you write it, once when you shoot it, it once when you edit it. We haven't edited that movie at all yet, so we still have that whole incarnation of the movie you realize. And frankly, we haven't

even completed, even though we shot the majority of the movie, we haven't shot all the movie. And in the fourth time, once after you yell at Sebastian Stan for talking about shooting a scene with Michelle Pfeiffer and people that we have no idea how they could possibly be in the next Avengers movie, right? I think he was drunk when he says that.

Okay, fair enough. God bless Sebastian. God bless. He's amazing. amazing. So you do have a few sequences, some shooting left to be done on this next one. We do. We have some work to go back and do. We always do. I mean, it's, you know, it's an iterative process making these movies, and we constantly revise as we go. And, you know, these two films in particular have no template. There's nothing you can look back to. And it's not like a muscle that you could have developed over 10 years. It's, you know, you have to watch it and go,

okay, that makes sense. That doesn't make sense. We better fix that. And this, we can turn up the gas here emotionally and this. you know we just thought of a better storytelling idea let's go fix that and so need the cameras and the cast to do that sometimes um i would imagine you had a unique vantage point being part of the disney family and making a film like this seeing how last jedi was uh accepted or not accepted by some fans it was very divisive film that i personally i've gotten a record and loving um but it also took some major chances and pushed the audience and i think that i would argue that's why it is so rewarding.

I'm just curious, did you have a perspective on that film in terms of how the audience reacted to it, given what you wanted? Yeah, I mean, look, audiences are very vocal, and at the advent of social media, they become even more vocal. And I do think that that is part of the process now of making movies is that we're interconnected and that information can flow within seconds around the world, and that opinions and voices can be heard within seconds from around the world.

So part of why we like making these movies is because we like telling communal stories. We grew up in a large Italian family. We like that process of feeling connected to people all over the globe. And we love taking these movies on press tours because it's when we finally get out of a dark room with our editor and get to interact with the fans.

And being fans, we want to share this because we create stories that we love watching. and then we hope other people are going to love watching as well. So, you know, I think that there's a contract now between filmmaker and the fans that this is a communal process and that we're all going to share in it together. As fans, I know you're as intrigued as I am and as many about the potential Fox merger and what that means for, you know, X-Men Fantastic Four, et cetera. You've mentioned, I think, interest in love of Wolverine like many.

What do you do with Wolverine at this point, though? Coming off of what, like, Mangold just did. What could you do with Peter Parker after two? Okay, that's fair. That's sort of a... I think there's always new stories to tell. It doesn't mean that, you know, that maybe it's 10 years before the next Wolverine story.

Who knows? And somebody's going to come attack me now for saying that. But, you know, there's always a path forward if there's a story worth telling. Right. And I think what, another thing that we appreciate about, Marvel is that they're very good at making sure there's a story to tell before committing to it. And frankly, there's a lot of IP that can be mine.

There's thousands of Marvel characters, and maybe there's a new direction to go in. Is there a character underserved either in the MCU or on the Fox side that feels like, through nobody's fault, that just feels like? I think we all agree that the Fantastic Four needs its, you know, it's, you know, the correct story told. That, you know, characters that were important to me as a child, Ben Grimm was a, you know, one of my favorites, too. And I think that there is a, there's a version of that film and that world that still needs to be told.

I remember Peyton, read way back when he was going to do, I think he was going to do a period one. I think he was going to do ones out of the 60s. Yeah, that's really interesting. But now, if you were to bring them into the Marvel University, they'd all be quite old. Fair enough, fair enough. That is also one of the, by the way,

the intriguing things of sort of how this is all played out are kind of like, and Captain Marvel's starting to do this, is fill in the gaps. It's kind of those unexplored years. I mean, you could, you know, if one wanted to, you could even do the last couple years of Cap and Nat, you know, on the run and those adventures, obviously, Winter Soldier.

You know, it would be intriguing to see what adventurous young filmmaker wants to make of that if they do. There are a thousand different directions. Yeah, maybe those stories. stories will get told, maybe there's a medium to tell them in. I think that we live in a constantly evolving world right now, where technology is advancing storytelling in a way that we've never seen before. And I think this young generation, this generation in particular, is more facile than we've ever seen.

And I think Craves more immersive storytelling than we've ever seen. And I think, you know, two-hour, two-dimensional projection of stories has had a nice 100-year run. but I have a suspicion that that may be evolving into something else over the next two decades. I'm going to let you go in a second, I promise. Are there any scenes on the cutting room floor of Hawkeye and Ant Man just sitting around watching the world's events

from their house arrest? Huh, maybe we should leave. Mowing the line. Now, they'll handle. That would lie. Barbecuing. We never saw them. There was nothing shot of them.

No, nothing was shot of them. It was a specific story. choice why yeah yeah there's a you know we have a really interesting story cooked up for both those characters and and part of that story and required they they be under house arrest for have you seen antmen on the wasp yet we're psyched to see it now we're so low come on the disney folks have to say we haven't seen solo either but i think they've been working really hard yeah and i mean they might you know we we went up to the wire turning in our film i'm sure they're going past the way or to turn into that film.

But we did just get the invite to the premiere, which I'm extremely excited. Membership has its privilege. It's right. Disney family, right? And finally, you've definitely been offered a Star Wars film. I mean, this makes no sense to me. Being part of the Disney family, making these films that have made them so much money and also creative and been satisfying, what's the hold up?

You're making a Star Wars movie at some point. I think we were, you know, we've just been part of the Marvel universe, and I think they're very respectful of Kevin in the Marvel universe. You know, when we're done telling stories in Marvel, then, you know, then is there the opportunity to maybe go tell some other stories? And, you know, we've not hidden the fact that Star Wars was a seminal experience for us like it was for everyone else. And, you know, the day Empire Strikes strikes back came out. I sat in a theater from 11 a.m. to 11 p.m. and watched it back to back to back. So, you know, I think we appreciate that universe as much as anyone.

The question would be, can we find a story to tell in it and what is it? And, you know, and this is, these movies are really hard to make as the Star Wars movies are, as you can imagine. And, you know, when we deliver Avengers 4 a year from now, we will have worked with Marvel nonstop on these four films for seven straight years. So, I mean, that is required a complete immersion on our part into our work there. And so, you know, that's a part of it as well. Well, like Empire, you've traumatized millions of young people. congratulations in the best possible way it's heartbreaking we had a we had to grow up sometime kids we had a q and a we had a q and a last week where uh the first question came from a 10 year old

boy who who through teary i had asked us uh you know why why did we kill spider man so uh and um it was there's basically there's no answer there's no answer to that cut the cue and cut the mic for the kids we ran off stage um once again congratulations on the film. I hope this was therapeutic. It was for me. This was for us. Are you kidding me? It's like it's been so hard for us for so long not to talk about it. It's been a pleasure talking about it. And it's the ones protecting the secret's the hardest. It's also it's nice now that people have seen the film so you can actually have a conversation with him. No, I was very much looking forward to this. And thanks for your honesty

and being as forthright as you can be in the circumstances. And hopefully we can continue the conversation a year from now. Thanks, man. I look forward to you. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. We did it. Great love. Lovely. So ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names,

still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S. Army and Native American warriors, to dark for the disaster of the Donner Party and shining summits for achievements like the Transcontinental Railroad. We'll go back to the earliest days of explorers and mountain men and head up through notorious Pinkerton agents and gunmen like Tom Horn. Every episode features narrative writing

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