Happy Sad Confused - John Cusack

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

Give a warm welcome to cinematic icon, John Cusack. John joins the pod for the first time to share his new graphic novel, MOMO, and chat with Josh about his filmography over the years. John tells Josh how he and Cameron Crowe got the dialogue just right on SAY ANYTHING, what idea he takes credit for on CON AIR, how he got Bruce Springsteen in HIGH FIDELITY, and how he landed BEING JOHN MALKOVICH. Plus, his friendship with Hunter S. Thompson, those BREAKING BAD and PULP FICTION rumors, and more! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENTS! 10/13 -- Joe Manganiello in NY -- Tickets here: https://www.92ny.org/event/joe-manganiello-with-josh-horowitz-bloodlines 10/14 – Olivia Colman & Alexander Skarsgard – Tickets here:  https://www.92ny.org/event/wicker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I said, I will be the first non-biblical action star in the history of an action movie to wear sandals throughout a film. It's like post-Heston, non-biblical, there's one guy. I'm going to die on the sill. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused.

Today on the show, we've got John Cusack here, guys. absolute icon of the 80s, the 90s, all the way up until today. This man has been in more iconic films than I can count on two hands, and we cover a lot of them on this one. I'm so thrilled this one happened. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to check out our Patreon if you want to support us. That's the best way to do it. Patreon.com slash happy-sac infused bonus materials, early access, access to our live events, and so much more, check it out. Okay, so John Cusack, this is one of those. What am I doing even trying to give an introduction to John Cusack?

You know him and love him from Conair, Say Anything, Gross Point Blank, High Fidelity, on and on and on. He's one of the best. And he's a part of like my, I don't know, my maturation as a film lover and probably yours, so many iconic roles. And we honestly cover a ton of them in this. He has a new graphic novel out. This is a newest expression of his artistic vision. And I'm so proud to support it. It is called Momo.

It is wild. It is trippy. It is definitely influenced by his old buddy The Deerly Departed Hunter S. Thompson. We talk about that relationship in this and more. So check it out. If you wanted to support what John Cusack does, check out Mo Mo.

It's a new graphic novel on Amazon wherever you get your graphic novels. Check it out. All right, let's get to the main event because he doesn't do a lot of these kind of long-form conversations. So this is a treat. Here is me and the iconic John Cusack, everybody.

John Cusack. How are you, sir? It's so good to see you, man. It's so good to see you. Thank you for doing the podcast. Thanks for having me. You don't do a lot of this, so this means a lot to me. I'm obviously a fan of everything you've done as a, look, you're an actor, you're an activist, you're a writer.

You're now a graphic novelist. Look at this. It's true. How does this feel to look at that? In print, it exists. It's real, John. It feels good. It feels fun.

It feels like we were just talking a little bit before we started. And it was fun just to write something and say, okay. I kind of think this is good and done, you know, and usually, you know, you can keep obsessing and rewriting things all the time, but I said, I'm just going to, I think the script is done. And then I said, well, let me find a cool writer and a good friend of mine connected me with Ignacio No, and I saw his work and he was so, it was so beautiful. And he responded and he said, he really wanted to do it. So we just did it together, you know, self-financed. I like, I financed it. Doesn't have to go through committees, doesn't have to go through,

We need $20 million to get this off the ground. No. You can just expunge all the creativity from your soul. There was no pitches. There was no nothing, right? Yeah. And so we just did it. And then, and I said to him, you know, your full creative partner, don't draw anything

you don't want to do, make yourself completely happy with it as happy as you can be. And if you want to collaborate, we will. But if not, you know, like just you're, I wrote it. Now you do your thing. And so it was a very, very, like, cool, fun, pure experience just to make something with, like, one other person. Yeah. So we're going to. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, totally. I totally get it. And I'm glad it's brought you here today because there's a lot to talk about it. And, like, in this particular project, it's fascinating to me because, look, you've, you've been a part of some amazing iconic works over the years. What I'm curious about is, like, is the dopamine hit you get out of this similar? Is it different? Are you feeling like a different kind of, I don't know, rush? out of this experience versus writing gross point blank being and say anything like

these movies that mean a lot to a lot of people yeah I think it's like it's it's similar and or it's a little bit higher probably because you know when you write a screen player whatever it is it's still your you can just do it the way you want it you know unless you're you know selling it to somebody and you're writing for someone else but I've a lot of stuff I've done I just do like on spec you know I just I write my things I like And that is really fun because, you know, it's just how you imagine. You don't have to like sell it to anybody or justify things.

And this was like a pure rush. I mean, my buddy Mark Lainer and I, it originated. We were both really interested in our toe because he's just a fascinating figure. This is a French artist. The surrealist, you know. And he was the one like André Bertone and all those guys said he was the one who never relented. Like he was just the guy, right? He just pushed it farther and farther and farther and was committed.

And he was a silent film star. He was in Joan of Arc and all that stuff. But he was really kind of a radical guy. And even his philosophies and theories are unachievable. But that's kind of the point. He was just, he's kind of a wizard, we thought, you know. And we were like, well, it would be a great movie about Artow. And we were trying to think of it.

And at one time we had the idea of full, metal arto, which would be like a, if he was some sort of robotic thing. No, that's no good. And then it's sort of, Jack and Gilles. It got, well, it got there. But then the, the, the origination was, Mark and I was sitting and I said, the best version of, it was in the, he wrote it in the forward, that it's actually a true story. I did try to bribe him, not really, but I said the best version of an arto movie would be our toe rising out of the sea. like Godzilla and smashing, you know, AI, tech, all the future civilization.

There's a little bit of that towards the end of this. Well, yeah, that's the end of it, you're right? And so, but then we said, well, that movie would, oh, to the theme of the monsters. Obviously. Of course. Sorry, I left that out. To be fair, the theme of the monsters goes with everything. It makes everything a little better.

Yeah, I think so. So we knew that would be the best version of the Artot movie, but then we both agreed. Like, there's no other Artone movie to make. But that would be a two-minute movie or a three-minute movie. So then I started to think about Jackie Gleason and Richard Nixon and the alien heads. As one does. And I came to the conclusion with some top secret documents that were handed to me

that perhaps Artoe did not die in the insane asylum on the south of France. But the Jackie Gleason, yes, the Jackie Gleason arranged an Eagle Will Dare Commando-style raid to extract him You say it out loud It makes more sense Now I get it

Now you see what I'm saying Like you're trying to put things together Were any psychedelics used Or consumed in the making of this? Well I think I've had psychedelics used and consumed In my life Right so maybe based Some residuals

Yes Could be based in that But it is like But it also has like It's an homage to lots of genres and things that I love. It's a road trip. It's a buddy thing.

So there's a lot of things, you know, references that I love, you know. But there's definitely some Hunter in there, you know. I was going to say. I mean, there's no doubt. So Hunter S. Thompson. It's like a fan fiction novel of something that doesn't exist. I was going to ask you. Does that make sense?

Totally. I was going to actually ask you, you knew Hunter? Yeah, he was a friend. I mean, that's, you were talking before, like, one of the pleasures of your life, one of the gifts is like the people you've collected, the people you've gotten to know through your crazy life. Yes. To know Hunter. Yes. What was that relationship? What did he, what was it like to be in his presence where shotguns fired was like the whole experience? All of it, all of it. He was great.

At Corey was a Southern gentleman and a romantic and idealist and, you know, obviously a disillusioned idealist. He was always the smartest guy in the room, probably the funniest human being I've ever met, a wild animal. that could be dangerous, but a very loyal guy. So the relationship, I mean, I went out to see him at Woody Creek a few times and very memorable stories. Like, would you see him turn from like? No, no, no.

He was always great. It was just like when he picked us up at the airport, you know, he was in one of his Cadillacs. And then he drove in and he said, oh, you know, You see that car on there? There's a, you could just grab that in, follow me to the, follow me to the farm. So right off the bat, it was like, he had me steal, like, Glenn Fry's car.

So it was like right off the bat, like, Grant Theft Auto. Like, not even out of the air, like, just out of the airport. Yeah. And then when we got there, you know, he's like, do you play golf? Do you shoot? I was like, sure. And he said up a, he goes, I'm going to get back inside for a minute. You know, affidavits, I've got to sign, whatever.

And he set up something called Shotgun Golf where it's like a pitching putt with a flag. But if you can blow the ball out of the air, you know, fair play. So that was like within the first half hour. Right. And then the other stuff is not so. So he put on a nice show. It was a nice show. He said, yes, come out.

And on the weekend, there will be games. Some will be the evil. Some will not. Most will not. But he was also like, I mean, look, he was. the myth and the legend of, you know, that was one part. But he was also a guy that woke up and read everything and was a brilliant, brilliant guy.

So he's in your mind a bit when you're writing this? I mean, a little bit. Yeah, I don't think there's, there's some writers and some influences that affect you so hard you can't, it's impossible to get their tone or their comic sensibility out of your head. And all you can do is like sometimes pay homage to it because it's just he's sort of like Lono, the god of fun, you know. But he was a, yeah, very great guy.

And then most of the relationship back then would be at night. And I would get lots of faxes and things. And he would send me stuff and I would send him stuff. So you were talking to him on the phone because this was before all the stuff. You must have like a half dozen of these people. Like what was like, well, you know, in your life? Like did you brando? No, no, no.

I do have some amazing people that I've met. But in the, we have it like a book, another book coming out with like more stuff in it. Right. And in that I have all a lot of the facts correspondence that between 100 and me, all the late nights, you'll see like 1991, right? And he's, and, you know, and I would send him things like I would try to work him up. Like I send him a Wall Street Journal article about like these pansexual snails that were brought in from. And so then it became a story about pansexual snails inviting the White House. And so I have the article I sent him and then I have the story.

You need to release the Hunter Files. It sounds like you are releasing the Hunter Files. There's some Hunter Files, but it's all love. And then I did a version of his, I did a version of Fear and Loathing on Las Vegas on stage. And then he had Ralph, Stedman, make the cover art. for it and that was what that went on the rolling stone cover of fear loathing at elko he did that for our show so amazing so i've had yes but i said what about here's a random one that's not so random because it's in there's a lot of exorcist in this in this did you know friedkin

did you know i did uh i did admit uh uh william friedkin and we had talked about doing a a show together i was like william freakin wants to do a show i was like yeah he goes are we'll send you script. I was like, why? I'm going to do it. You can send it, but I mean, I don't... It's a courtesy shore. I want to work with William Freakin, right?

And what I found was fascinating was we had to go around to all the studios and pitch it, and they turned down William Freakin. I mean, I was just like... French connection, exorcists, like two of the literal perfect movies in the universe.

I just stared at them like, I couldn't believe... Yeah. I mean, I didn't know during this. the pitches, but I guess they know better. Yeah, well. But no, I've gotten to meet so many wonderful people and like, uh, it is arguably the, the greatest gift of something like this, an unexpected gift, like to be like, enter a club you didn't know existed.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was like that because that sounds sort of like, um, you know, as you get old, you realize there, everybody wants to be in the VIP club and there is no VIP club. There's always another relevant rope to get. Right, right. And the people that you meet that are awesome, like, don't kind of say, fuck it. They don't acknowledge the VIP club. Yeah, exactly.

They're all outcasts and weirdos anyway. Yeah, exactly. Like I got to, yeah, it just was strange because I was working when I was such a young kid. You know, I started when I was a teenager. Right. And so I got to actually meet some of my heroes and actually work with them. I mean, yeah. I got to work with Al Pacino who became a friend.

City Hall. And he is also one of the great, great human beings and one of the funniest guys you'll ever meet. and just such an original mind. He's, yeah, I mean, I'm privileged enough to, he's been on the podcast. Oh, wow, so you know. Well, I mean, we all know. I mean, like that mind is just going a thousand different places at once, and you're just trying to, like, follow it as best you can.

But it's like he's got all the stories, all the wonderful eccentricities, and he's the greatest actor ever. Yeah. It's everything. More happy say confused coming up. From the parents behind law and order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Pickle Bottom Everyday Mysteries. Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Pickle Bottom, a precocious 11-year-old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries.

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Yeah. Is that the shift point for you that you think of when kind of fame and kind of, I don't know, a shift in your life happened? Is that a demarcation point when you look back or? Well, yeah. Because I was, I went from being in high. school like in study class to being on a set with Jacqueline Bissette. I mean like what is it you know I was when I was in a sophomore in high school and that's just luck

because they happened to be making movies in Chicago. You were at a good time when Chicago John he was all these films. Yeah yeah so I happened to be of age and was interested in acting and sort of doing it and you know and so I was lucky enough to get a get a get a part and then get another one and then um I was still a junior in high school, and I auditioned for Rob Reinders, the sure thing. And he hired me. And so I basically, you know, that was my first lead role. Were you, how would you?

So, like, demarcation point is sort of like I was a teenager and I got to jump into this world. You've already done a couple smaller roles. Yes. Like, were you going up because you did, you were part of the John Hughes world a little bit. I was in 16 candles. Yeah, I was in 16 candles. I'm surprised you actually didn't pop up in other things. There's there's conjecture that like you were offered the Judd's role in Breakfast Club.

No, no, no. I think there was one time at one point where I think he thought he wanted me to do it. And I think I would have done it. I thought it was a cool script. But it didn't go that way. Got it. And what do you remember of like how did you handle? What are the pros and cons of being a, this is going to be Hugh gag, a teen idol, like kind of like getting into that world.

Like, and getting that degree of fame and probably being on the cover of. of those magazines at the time. Was that, when you look back, was that fun? Was it overwhelming? Did you handle it well? No, I think, you know, they say fame is something that you have to sort of deal with because you don't really get prepared for it,

especially when you're probably a teenager. So, but I was lucky because I think maybe the way my parents weren't or the people that I admired, you know, I hadn't done anything. Yeah. So I was never. ever by my by the hype or anything like right I want you know I wanted to work with great people and do great movies but I knew I hadn't done anything yet so you

know I wasn't it does seem like from the beginning you had really good taste like I don't know how much of it is luck and how also I think my father was always like he just said you know you to be a celebrity is death for an artist like you know he was always about like what's the script what's the part what's this thing saying right and so like he wasn't impressed by yeah any of that So I think that rubbed off on me. So because of things like that because of that kind of thing being grand when some like John sales calls, that's meaning. Yeah, like that was yeah, that was like oh wow. That's like the big league. This is like a real auteur, real writer. So I even if I didn't take any of that stuff seriously as a teen. Were you, were you already a huge baseball fan when when it happened? Yeah, yeah. That's probably still got to be then one of the great jobs ever to like be a ball player. Tell that story that. It was. It was. It was. And, um, it was John Sales was in it, Studs Terkel was in it. I don't remember that.

Studs Terkel played, remember John Sales did a great Ring Lardner. Yes. Right? And then Huey, I think it was named, not Huey Long, the governor, but Huey something, who's sports writer, was Studs Terkel. So, I mean, you could just listen to Studs Terkel talk for, whatever, days. Yeah. And then it was filled with other great Christopher Lloyd was in it.

Clifton James. All right, and Clifton James. You remember Cool Hand Luke? Sure. He says, spend a night in the box. I'm Carl, the floor manager, right? Just a great, one of those great, great character actors. You know, that this, I mean, truly fantastic.

So he played Charles Comiskey. So I was like, it was unbelievable. And then you get to eventually look at Paul Newman himself, Cool man, Luke himself. Did he live up to the hype? Did he? Completely. Yeah.

Completely. Great. Just a human, great human being, obviously. But also like those guys were like Al and Newman, they were very gracious with younger actors. You know, like if they, you know, they would sort of look out for you and they knew you admired them and they were very, you know, they were really very gracious and warm. So I got to, you know, hang out with Paul a little bit and get to know him. What a privilege again. Okay. So, I mean, there are a few iconic roles we have to mention. And look, you know Lloyd Dobler is one of the all-timers and like has such a personal connection for, I would have a privilege.

millions of people. Everybody like experiences say anything at a certain point in their life, and they invariably connect with it. That feels like the great, like a great fusion of you and Cameron at the time, because you influenced that character, it seems as much as obviously Cameron's writing it. Yeah, it was a real collaboration. Like where do you, and Lloyd begin? Like, when you look at that character, what of you is in there? Um, I think a lot, but, you know, But Cameron's was, we used to say like, all right, the version that we see together would be like a, and of course, this is a very pretentious thing to say for a 21 year old, whatever, but it's like Lennon and McCartney, right? You know, you got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time. Lenin says it can't get no worse. So you hold those things. So my thing was I felt like to be 19, 20, 21 in the Reagan America. It was dark.

Yeah. And, you know, that's why all the punk movement was so cool. And that's why you, you know, you'd have to go get your information, you know, through culture. And you had to, you had to kind of earn it. And, you know, it's the time when you would carry books around in the back of your, you know, you, you know, all that's, you're a young man, right? So when I would meet people who wanted to do versions of teen that sounded like 50-year-old men talking. Yep. you know, okay, that's quick dialogue and it's witty,

but I don't relate to it at all. So, like, I don't know. That was Cameron's gift, that he was young enough that he was still connecting with those characters. And like, well, he had a vision of the guy, but he also had, he was inclusive enough to know, or at least instinctive enough to know that,

like, I had something that I had to bring to it in order to do it. Right. And, you know, he was big enough to embrace that, I guess. Did you connect with any? But I remember I talked to the, like, the producer who's a great guy and like was great for the film. Yeah. But, you know, at first he sort of tried to wrangle me a little bit.

And he said, he called me into his office and said, look, I don't think this is a character that has an agenda. I don't think this is a character that needs a beer at a party to have a good time. And I just said, Jim, stop there. I don't understand anything that you're saying. and when I mean anything, I mean nothing. I don't want to do that. Yeah. I want to do, like, I want to wear a clash t-shirt.

I want to like, you know, you have to have a worldview, right? You have to, like, especially when you're young man, like you're trying to figure out what the hell you want to be a part of, what you don't want to be a part of, like, you know, what you reject, what you accept, like it's, that's part of what, you know, that's the truth, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I want, that's, I don't want to do that thing.

So like I told you I told you I'll do I'd only do it if I could work on the character and and rewrite it. So but to his great credit, you know, and he was sort of like look at me like, oh, this kid's got, you know, what does this kid talk? But then, but when he saw what I was doing, he was supported 100%. I mean, that iconic kind of speech, the I don't want to sell anything by anything, process anything, that feels still very like residents. Yeah, I mean, I wrote that with Cameron and I wrote the first part and then Cameron.

Cameron added, I can't figure it all tonight, sir, I just want to hang with your daughter, which was, that was like a perfect combination. Right, there's Lenin McCartney right there. Yep, totally, yeah. So that was a really good experience. And, yeah, that was just great. I do, I have like a... But I do think the movie works, it...

People talk about, like, Cameron and me, but I think the story of the father and the daughter and the John and Ione and I only together. I think that speaks. to a lot of people as much as, you know, my character did. Because it was very, it had a very genuine, dark kind of really, and John Mahoney's such a great actor. And I had worked with him on Aitman Out, he played the manager. And he was the guy saying, oh, I'm going to do this, say anything,

you got to do it. And I was like, oh, but it's a teen. I don't want to go back to doing that. And he goes, no, it's better than that. It's cool. But then it was John. So I think that part was, I think. underrated, let's just say.

Can I give you a 17-year-old overdue apology? I don't know if you remember this. Do you remember that we had an encounter related to say anything a thousand years ago? I don't think you owe me an apology. No, I do, I do. No matter what you said. It was the 2012 junket. And I, silly Josh, who was trying to be funny, brought in a cardboard boombox.

Oh. I was that guy. That's all right. Well, yeah, yeah. But, like, I get it. Like, you were in the middle of promoting it at the movie. And then some guys, like, coming in with a schick being, like, like, here's the boom box, John.

And I wasn't expect, I don't even know what I was expecting at the time. But I feel like part of this today, I want to talk about your life and career. I just want to say sorry. I didn't mean to like. Don't be sorry. Okay. I probably didn't. I wasn't.

I wasn't. Did I look mad? I feel like I just like, you know, I feel like you, look, there's a lot of baggage to like that character and that that's been with you every day of your career. And like for somebody. I think about if I was giving you, you know, a little attitude, I think it's because when you make a movie. like 2012 you literally promote the movie around the world for like seven months yeah like double the

amount of time it took to shoot the movie so just you can't you know you just get a little bit tired and answering yeah i get it but it must have been it was probably that we were both saying yeah this this whole podcast is a reaction to that culture basically like it desensitized me from human interaction and just like what is it like to actually have a conversation with a human being again yeah here we are here we are are. More happy, say, confused coming up. Goodbye, Kyle. Did the sound of those words call to you like Pavlov's dog?

Then you might enjoy our podcast, Turtle Time. Every week you can join me, Riley Hamilton, and my co-host, Amy Scarletta, as we cover the most pressing Bravo news and dig into the new episodes to answer important questions like, who the hell is Adrian Maloof in this world? Listen to Turtle Time on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday. I'm Anne Foster, and I have never watched the show, Spartacus, Blood, and Sand. And I'm Gina Berry, and I've watched this show numerous times.

On our new podcast, Nefer TV, we discuss TV shows and movies set in ancient history. This season, we are discussing Spartacus, Blood, and Sand. Follow Nefer TV. That's N-E-F-E-R-T-V-E, wherever you get your podcasts. So I was going to say, so like in the wake of, of, say anything again like I feel like your taste has always been impeccable like you know you work with Paul Newman and fat man and little boy you work in the grifters I mean come on the grifter Stephen freers who obviously became an important collaborator for the other reason later on the grifters is a great one like a great great movie and you um Annette who kind of seemingly came out of nowhere

she's done some stuff but like she's a lightning bolt in that film yeah that she would she had done a version of dangerous lizons with milas foreman which was very good but yeah for some reason Stevens got more attention at the time. And you and Angelica talk about an interesting dynamic. Was she intimidating? Is Angelica Houston like? Well, for some reason we got along so great. And I think, you know, maybe it's the Irish heritage.

And I don't know, there was just some, we have, we had an instant sort of friendship. What, how did that, because like Freers has such such an eclectic, interesting career. Like for him to direct that and then also for you to collaborate all those years, later. Did you think of Frears all those years later? Well, yeah, for high fidelity. I thought of it. Joe Roth, who ran Disney, who was a great, great friend to artists. He had his studio movies like we do con air and all those kind of movies. But then he had seven or eight slots out of his 30 movies he'd make a year, and he would just give it to filmmakers that he liked. So I got to make Gross Point Blank and High Fidelity and Spike Lee got to make Summer, Sam, West Anderson,

and got to make Rushmore. So, like, he really, and, you know, he didn't mess with you. He was, he really supported the film. So it was just pure luck. So anyway, I'd worked with him and, on Gross Point Blank, and he said he had the rights to, the studio had high fidelity. So he said, do you want to write it?

And I said, yeah. And I wrote it and he liked the script. So we were greenlit. And then we got to hire a director. And I thought, well, you know, it's a British story. Stephen can do anything and I thought it was a lark. I said, hey, Steven, you wanna take this, check this out. Maybe that's something you wanna do.

And he wanted to do it. How did you get Springsteen? Springsteen does not do that kind of thing. Well, that was another like the weird life thing, which was like I got to go, you know, to see Springsteen shows and stuff and that somehow I still could never understand how any of the people that I was heroes with knew anything about my work or it's seen my movies. Like, honestly, it seems odd to me that they knew anything about me because I was huge fans

with them since I was, you know, a kid. But I knew him and had gotten to hang out with him a little bit. And so, you know, I had his number. So I called him up. I said, hey, do you want to play a version? I said, I got to ask you something and please apologize. You know, I understand that this is going to be a weird ask, but I got to try it. And please forgive me for asking.

He says, oh, stop, go ahead. What do you got? And I said, do you want to play yourself talking to me in my head about, and I pitched for him? And he went, I just paused and he went, sounds good. I was like, wait a minute. But I think he knew about the book.

Right. And he also knew that it was about music and a love letter to music. So if there was going to be something he could do that would fit his groove. Sure. I mean, this was like, the whole book was a love letter to great music, so, and he was in the book, and he knew that he was in the book.

Right. So it was just basically a Hail Mary that, you know, landed, but I was always grateful for him for doing that. Did you ever out of curiosity see the, I think it was an Amazon show, the Zoe Kravitz show? Was that a curiosity to see a different interpretation of it? No, I didn't. because nobody asked me about it.

So I sort of thought, okay, well, that's cool. But I mean, I was, I know that I'd work with, you know, Lisa was in the movie, and I'd also work with her father, Lenny, but I just thought, you know, if they didn't call about it. So I thought, you know, I didn't see it. I mean, I look at the career, especially in the 90s. Like, there's never been a 1997, like I've seen someone else's career. You have gross point blank, you have con air, and you have midnight in the garden of good and evil.

That's quite a trio. That's like all over the map in the best possible way. That's pretty crazy. When you think about it. Gross point blank. I mean, does that remain kind of like for you artistically, maybe the most creatively most creatively satisfying film experience of your career? Like, is that the truest expression of what you were doing for?

Yeah, that's about the best comedy I can make. Yeah. I think. You know what I mean? Like those are your sensibilities. That's what you. I think so, yeah. Yeah.

You know, probably. And those kinds of things are sort of hard to make. And again, that was just like, I don't think it would have happened without a guy like Joe Roth running the studio. Honestly, because getting other movies made is always so difficult, getting the aesthetic and the tone right. And he was championed the movie. So it was like a, you know, I was very lucky to, again,

to know a guy like Joe Roth and to have him, like my work and and you know those are few and far between they were few and far between now they're almost non-existent now I don't think they exist anymore when you I was going to talk about this later but let's talk about it now because like I don't want to make it like a sad state of affairs because I still

there's still a lot of great film out there but when you look at the landscape now most of it comes from out of the country though I mean that's fair Korean cinema's awesome right and like lots of stuff around the world is really cool but the Americans are the films are flat, you know. Have you seen that kind of like,

did you see it kind of happening in real time for you? Because like, it does feel like the last decade, 15 years, 20 years. I mean, and I like superhero films, don't get me wrong. We're talking about a graphic novel. That's comic, you know, there's the comic world. Good ones are great. But I don't know, does it,

is it depressing for you as someone that kind of came of age in a time where you were allowed a little bit of artistic freedom? Well, like getting back to the, When I was doing Say Anything, right? So the producer of it was Polly Platt. Polyplatt was married and worked with Peter Boganoviz. So she had made Paper Moon, last picture show. Like, I mean, great films, right?

Really cool, seminal, amazing films. So she was like, that was her mindset. Her mindset wasn't, how are we going to, you know, make the most money and who am I going to connect with here? it was like different values. The cinematographer was Laslo Kovacs. Right. You know,

the guy was carrying, you know, during the revolution, he was, you know, going across fields with canisters of film, right? You know, he's a real artist. And the first AD was Jerry Zesmer, who was Francis Ford Coppola's first AD on Apocalypse now, who is in the scene when he says, you know,

terminate with extreme prejudice. That's Jerry. Amazing. And, you know. So there was, you know, there's that feel of, you know, you're here to try to make something cool and artistic. And I think over the years it became more and more corporate. And the people who were running the studios, it used to be that the studios were just studios. And then, you know, people forget, but there was time with Paramount and Warner Brothers weren't held by some huge international.

Right. Now the movie things are a tiny, tiny part of a media empire. Yeah. And that's all about vertical integration strategies and all that. So they're selling telephones. They're not selling movies. Yeah. So the the environment or the corporate environment around it has to do with like kind of uniformity and surety. And, um, but movies should, you know, the one thing that movies lack is ambiguity, right? Like you can't feel conflicted ways about a character. No. Right?

I tear you. Yeah. And I mean, look, if you're just thinking about making money, maybe, I don't, I still don't think it's the right move. Yeah. But they seem to think that way. So, you know, a good way to say it was, you ever had anything to say it was like Philadelphia was better when the mob ran it?

Right. And that's a good kind of metaphor because at least when the mob is, you know, it was. is like you knew who he had to pay off right the garbage got collected don't go into that neighborhood don't mess with that guy okay and you know you can make a deal right so like some of the studio it was like the wild west but some of the you could still make deals with people who ran studios who were just people right now it feels like a faceless boardroom yeah you're you know now you're like your scripts are every script is going to amazon to go into the AI machine and get you know now they have AI gives notes for studios

do you see a place for yourself in like the studio system nowadays? It's been a minute since you've done like a studio film. And like I think a lot, I speak for a lot of fans where like, we love you and we want to see you like in great projects. And I feel like you are not being rewarded for what you can do. And I don't, from your perspective, like are you wanting for great material or what do you? Yeah. I mean, I just think, I think it's just a different, it's just a different vibe, you know. Like when even Harvey Weinstein, like he was kind of a gangstery guy.

I didn't know or no one knew the extent of his criminality, right? But he was the guy who ran Miramax and if you, if he and his brother, if like... If they liked your stuff, if you were good with he and his brother or if you could tolerate their notes or whatever it was, you'd make your movie and, you know, some, you know, you'd... Yeah. but it was like you knew it. There was a person you could deal with. Yeah.

We just knew a less horrible version of Harvey that's actually calling the shots to. Or calling some shots. So I mean, I think, and also like studio movies are now the independent, like when I was, when I made tape heads in 19, I don't remember what it was, that was pre- Sundance, right? Yeah.

And that was like, those were really independent films. Right. There was, you know, but now the independent version is just a subdivision of universal. It basically means you're going to, you get to do a really good project, but we still don't, you know, well, we have to, we're not going to be less money for it. We're going to be less money for it. But, you know, which is cool because you get to do a good project, but it's just, they're not independent. They're, it's an independent brand. Yeah.

But it's still a universal or whatever movie. I mean, and it still goes through those processes. Look, you, you were able to work within the studio system. quite a lot and have been. And then there's like a weird like anomaly. Like on paper, I don't know how- I'm talking about like, you know, Joe Roth, John Callie.

Like those are the good versions. And then there's the outlaw Harvey Weinstein thing. But and the terrible, those terrible revelations about him. But what you did know is that he, you know, if he got behind a film, he could get it made and, you know. Where does something like like Conier fit him?

Like Conier should not have worked. I feel like in retrospect. Like, it's like, well, that was, that was, that was Joe and that was, uh, Disney and, um, Is that a Bruckheimer? I can't even remember that was Bruckheimer. Right. Yeah. Right, right.

Like, did that feel like at the time, something that was working? Like, I mean, you had, look, it had an amazing company of actors. Like, that was undeniable. You look to your left. You look to your right. You've got Buccahiv. You've got Nalke. Like, everybody's going for it.

Right. Bing Rames. Amazing. Steve Bushemi. Yeah. David Chappelle's in that. Right, right. Whose idea were the sandals for your gut?

Of course it was. Right, thank you. My plan was, I had a very specific plan that your audience might not find interesting, and they've probably fallen asleep right now. No, no. Yes, they have. But I said, I will be the first non-biblical action star in the history of an action movie to wear sandals throughout a film.

It's like post-Heston, non-biblical, there's one guy. I'm going to die on the sill. Yeah, but I just thought it was really... It's a distinction. Because the film was ridiculous. Yeah. So I just thought, yeah, why don't it be ridiculous? And I thought, if I do an action movie in Birkenstocks, that'll be really hard.

And it'll be really weird. And that was my plan. Yeah. Does the movie work without the Birkenstocks? We'll never know. But it works with the Birkenstocks. We know that. Yes.

So we thank you for your service. Thank you. Thank you. But it was fun. It was, it was, I mean, look, no one's taking that movie seriously. And I think if you do take the movie seriously. It's a cartoon. Total cartoon, but it's, I mean, I just loved hanging out with John Malcovic.

And also, it was Disney and Joe Roth was like, had given me everything I needed for Gross Point Blank. in high fidelity, I was like, you got it. This is a deal all made. I mean, look, and I was like, it was probably a smart move, a smart move. That would be like the funnest way you could do the putting on the tights, the marvel stuff. Totally. You know, it was like at the time that was a fun thing to do. And I remembered it, you know, being just funny and absurd.

Yeah. Speaking of the comic book world, I remember a long time ago, and I don't know if this was like fan casting at the time for you and watchmen. Do you remember that? Like there was talk of like you... Yeah, but you know, there's some of those things are so like weird because there was this whole riff

that I had turned down Walter White. Yeah. And I never ever remembered that. And I was like, did that happen? And I'm like blacked out. You're like, no, no, I'm just saying like, you know, did I lose time or, you know? So for the record. No. And so, and I met Vince Gill in New York.

And I was like, hey, man, I love your show. It's awesome. I got a note. Everyone's saying you offered me that. Did you offer me that? He was like, no. I was like, thank you, Vince. So like, I don't know.

Like, but I'm, even if people say, oh, do you, would you regret doing that? I was like, how could you regret Brian Cranston playing that role? Sure, for sure. Like, it's his. Right. It was meant to be his, right? You know, if, uh, like, if, uh, like, They say, oh, do you regret this or that?

You know, I would have loved to have been in drugstore cowboy, right? But that's Matt Dillon's. Sure. It's his. Like, he was perfect. Him and Gus Van Zandt were perfect. It was, you know, so when a movie works like that, you know, no, yeah, I don't want to take that away from, you know. So similarly, that, that was, the watchman stuff was there was nothing.

No, I never. I didn't get offered that. There was also, like, a famous thing that was unearthed in the last few years. of like Tarantino supposedly had you as the top choice to play the role that eventually Eric Stoltz played in Pulp Fiction. Did you hear about that? I think I might have been, I do remember meeting with him

about that movie and he went to a, we went to a Denny's and he basically told me the whole story of the movie. Probably acted it out for you. He did, right? Yeah, he did. And then he was telling me about his, how cool is like his new TV and screening room were

and his projectors and the TV. and stuff. And he was like kind of geeking out on that stuff. And so I thought he was, I thought he was, it was cool story. But I never, um, I never got it offered or turned it down. Okay. He knows your number. He's got it somewhere in the phone. Yeah. But, uh, look, you did work with Malik and not a lot of actors can say that. That's true. And he came, that was a huge one at the time. Yeah. Like, we were all like, wait, Terence Malik is making a movie again. And then he collected 20 of the greatest actors on the planet in this movie. Yeah. And then he cut out six of them, like when the first rock were,

True, true. It's like, thought he was the lead. I know. I think Sean thought he was the lead, too. Everybody probably thought they were the lead. I knew I wasn't the lead, but I knew that because of the way he was shooting it and the nature of the novel, that the only linear part of the story is Captain Gaff, me and Nick Nullough, go get that hill. We try to get the hill, can't get the hill. Go get that hill.

We get the hill. And then we, right? That was the only. You want a semblance of something to hold on to. Well, everything else was like. a river that could go anywhere you know it was it was just like a three-hour tone poem but so I knew that part would stay in but yeah that was great working with him great working with Nick Nolte too who was another another getting to work with

your heroes you know the best voice in the business the best like when I was a teen you know I wasn't looking at fucking Tiger Beat I was looking at North Dallas 40 but I draw on the ground yeah like in you know there are too many great films let me mention a couple others before I let you go. Being John Malcovich. You have to let me go. We can talk. We can keep talking. What I mean being John Malcovich, when you read that script, Charlie Kaufman, what do you make of it? Are you like, who is this mad genius? I mean, are you all in? Do you have questions? What did you make of it at first? I actually have a, I told it before, but I can say it.

When I went to one of these agencies, I was with an agent from Chicago and for a long time and And then finally I went to, you know, William Morris at the time, a big agency. I said, you guys have to have like a black box with your unproducible scripts. You know, like, with the weirdest shit you've ever had. And like, I want to know what's in that black box. And they were like, well, you know, there's this. And they're like, that's not weird enough. I said, I want to know the most unproducible, insane, like psychotic thing that you guys know about that you put it in a box somewhere.

Open the box. Right. Open the box. And then one of the guys said, oh, I mean, well, there's being John Malcolmperson. I said, excuse me? And so I read it and I said, okay, here's the deal. All you have to do is get me in the door first with whoever finances it.

I have to do this role. And if you get me in the door first, I'll stay with you. And if you don't, I got to move on. That's all you got to do. You don't even have to deliver. I just want a shot at getting a job. there first. So I tracked it and I knew about it before it got financed. Did you relish? I mean, that's a pretty unlikable guy like when you get right down to it. Like he's kind of like, I mean,

the look, everything about it and like, again, someone like you can play that because you have an inherent like we're going to stick with you because you're John. Like we love you. But the accoutrements, I don't know, was it fun to kind of disappear into that kind of like. Yeah. It's an odd character for you. It's not something I've seen you do for since, I feel. Yeah, I mean, it's It's also about like an inert relationship people who are totally stuck, you know, and like it was dark and funny But again, it goes to like ambiguity, which is like you can see character It's a relatively new development that you have to equate

Likeability every moral action with whatever is considered, you know, you have to equate, you know, know, acceptable now or not. Right. I mean, I mean, I, I, there's a good chance if say anything was made today, they'd be like, you can't do that, you're stalking her, you know, you're, you're, she gave you her emotional boundaries and you're, you're, you're putting a, you know, a boombox outside of her, like, I guarantee there's a PhD paper on that somewhere somewhere. Right, right, right, right, but like, you know, and I'm, but I mean, or even in, in high

fidelity one of the things that people like about the movie is he is an asshole yeah and we are all assholes and like you're allowed to be an asshole to fuck up and still be a decent person like the range of like people talk about range like can you do an english accent and can you play like you know so this or that but like ranges do you have the capacity to be like a complete moron and somebody who's like an evolved sophisticated thoughtful, intelligent person. Does the same person contain that? Most people would say yes, right?

Or most people are like, there must have been things you did in your 20s, you were like, I cannot believe I was that fucking dumb. Sure. But it doesn't make you a bad person. Right. So it's like movies have to be able to admit that we're all human beings, you know,

and you have to be able to laugh at the fool. Like the fool is us, right? It feels like those characters have gone to TV's better at that now. right i think that's correct right that space has gone to to tv where you can have characters there and to your point films so like bigger films that have to be safe and then they have to yeah equate is equated to boring characters of a i mean there's a there's this something in in momo where moma writes the you know the loss of ambiguity is the highest value of art will be right and i do think that's true which is um like i love the french connection right um um

Doyle uses the N-word. Totally. Yeah. And it's shocked, right? Yeah. And he had a whole thing where he didn't want to do that with Billy Freak. And for a lot of the reasons I wouldn't want to do it because I don't want to be condone that or all that stuff. But that isn't the point.

The point is it true for that guy in that milieu in that time? Yeah. And can somebody be brought up in a place that that happens? But, you know, is it true? a great character. It's a compelling character. Right. So you don't have to, you know, agree with 100% of every, I don't know. I just think, I just think ambiguity is, is to feel like pulled in two directions. Like, you don't know how to feel like you're repulsed, but you still like the guy. Like, that's interesting. Yeah. To me, you know, and I think that's the,

that's where the juicy stuff is. That's the good stuff. Well, that's the stuff that's lost these days, I think. One more, I do want to bring up. In film, but, yeah, you're right. And And cable it is too, but I guess maybe there's some shows that do that. Love and Mercy, I want to give some love too. Sure. That's a great performance and it's a fascinating, structured film that where you're kind of essentially sharing Brian with great Paul Dayno. Did you form a relationship with Brian Wilson when you were before, during, or after?

I did. You know, Paul was playing him, you know, in his Beatles phase where everything he did was public. Yeah. Yeah. And I played him during that phase where he would, you know, the great rock and roll burnout story where he went away and was, you know, in the dark. Yeah. And no one knew what was happening.

So in a way, I was like, I asked Brian and Melinda, I said, can I, you know, get to know you and talk to you about this time in your life? And, you know, with all due respect and they were so kind to like, let me hang. out with him and talk to them and get to know them and you know I talked to you know Gloria the woman who you know saved his life many times by like emptying these bottles of these you know so yeah he was very they were very gracious and very to let me you know into their lives and so I hung out with them as much as I could before the movie and but Brian was like legitimately like followed by angels and shit like he was he was like this huge antenna big raw heart with legs you know like and also the the most open sensitive and like but a

tough motherfucker at the same time like a real interesting paradox you know a survivor a real survivor and um this true story you know because it seems unbelievable but it's i i have people who can document it, which was we were doing the scene where, and we're shooting at all the places where he's been at, right? So we're in the studios where the breakdown when he had, that was the studio where he was making the music that he made his earlier music that still exists, right? Right. So Brian used to wear like these kind of Hawaiian shirts.

And there was time, you know, when he had his hair kind of slicked back. Sure. Right. And so during that scene, I had, you know, a, purpleish kind of Hawaiian Trude, and I had my hair slick back. It was Brian's look. And Paul and I, I found later, both used the Smile Sessions box set as like our entry point because that was the peak of Paul's version of Brian.

Yeah. The ultimate peak where, you know, Paul McCartney was chewing the carrots on vegetables, he heard that, said, oh, my God, we have to scrap everything. And then he went and made Sergeant Peppers. and you can hear Sergeant Pepper's from Smile. And that is no dis on, I mean, it was just like, you know, I guess like Jackson Pollock breaking through with painting. It was just, it broke through, you know.

But that was the first time anyone had brought orchestrations in, you know, like seven tubas and four violins. But you have to think back then before computers, like you had to hear all of that and book all of those musicians. Trust me, can we get all these? Because it's in my brain. Can we tell translate it? And doing these parts.

And then, you know, you'd hear him on smile session say like, third trumpet, move your mic an inch back. Like one ear. That's crazy. So anyway, I digress. But so we're in the studios where he's doing all this stuff. And we're doing the scene that is probably the most painful part of his life when he couldn't let go of, he wasn't ready to. break free of this guy, this terrible person that was abusing him, but he was in love of Melinda, but yet he couldn't get free, right? So it was really, really dark, terrible time. And so I was,

as I said, Paul and I used smile sessions. So I was just like immersed in smile sessions. I'm sort of sitting on the floor going, how the fuck do I do this? I don't know, like, I don't know how to do this? Like, how do I do this scene? Like, how am I going to do him justice, right? Or whatever, You know, it's just, it just seemed like an impossible hill to climb, you know? Yeah. And my sister, Malika, tapped me on the shoulder because I was just sitting on the ground this and she went, I was like what? And he said, Brian's here. And I went, Brian Who?

And she went, Wilson. He had never come to the set. He didn't talk to anybody from the movie. He had like a loose, loose relationship. He came right before we shot that scene with his hair slick back. in a Hawaiian shirt. Everybody who just, their, their draws were dropped.

So he just sort of came by and then like sprinkled magic dust on us, talked for a while. And then he left. And I was just sort of like, yeah, roll the cameras. Something's got it. Something's going to happen. I mean, so he was like,

stuff like that was just like, he didn't know the schedule. He didn't, like he just knew. He touched from another point of existence. Yeah. Yeah, like it was complete shocked to everybody that he came in at that exact moment that day. It was, yeah, it was like, so anyway, he was definitely touched. Until you write the memoir of this conversation is going to have to suffice because, like, I mean,

crossing paths with the likes of Brian Wilson and Bruce and Hunter and Newman and like Al, and we've barely touched the tip of the iceberg. So I appreciate you going to memory lane for this. Before we end. Yeah, yeah, please. Tell me, so you got to read this crazy thing? I did. All right.

Mo Mo is the graphic novel. And there's more to come, right? You have another whole other. Yeah. We had such a good time with Ignacio. We're going to do, he's work. I have the story written and he's drawing it now. So is the hope, I mean, we were talking before.

We've been sort on mic, like, it's, it's an artistic. expression for you and Ignacio. And if it becomes a film amazing, but it's also like, you feel something like, I don't know, like something clarifying, purifying out of like having a true, clear artistic expression,

not for the first time in a while, but like, you know, as we've said, the industry sucks basically in a number of reasons. Does this feel like, I don't know, does it give you a little hope, little, like, juice going forward? Well, it seemed like, you know, as you're doing it, it's so natural because you're writing it like a film, you know?

So first thing with the church in Oklahoma and someone's talking and then you write the dialogue. So it seemed like a very natural expression. And then, yeah, I thought what you missed too is I think what I learned is you're hardwired to like tell stories, whether it's a quick song or this or that or, you know, even if we're doing this podcast here, you know, you're taking me through a story of the beginning when I started. And like, you know, we're, so I think we want to tell stories. And I just didn't want to, like, tell a story that takes five, six years to do and all that. This was just such an easy way to do it. So I wish I would have thought of it earlier. But I, yeah, it's fun to do.

No. And it's a new medium. And it's fun to play around with it. And, and there's no algorithms or AI. Nothing about this feels like this was manufactured in AI. This is like, this is, this is, this is, feels like your brain exploded all over the page. Perhaps, yes, which is great. Which is fantastic.

Before I let you go, we end every happy, Saganfews with some profoundly random questions, John. You ready? I am more than ready. Are you a dog or a cat person? Oh. I would say ultimately dog, but I love them both. Okay.

Great. Do you collect anything? Yes. Old books. Right. But not specific ones by, What's the treasure? What's the, like... Well, I like this guy, Rudolf Steiner,

who was sort of like this figure that... He's like, you know, I'm interested in these people that are like Brian Wilson or whatever, people who can channel things. Yeah. You know, where does that come from? Who are they? They've always fascinated me.

And I think, like, Rudolf Steiner was this guy who... He was, like, clairvoyant, and he started the Waldorf schools, and he started, like, I think, like, Stanislausky Method acting, and he had this whole thing on music and art, and he was an architect and a philosopher. And he literally wrote down biodynamic farming.

Like he just wrote all the things down to what organic food movement was. Like, where did it come from? I don't know. So I was, so I'm interested in his stuff, his writing. And like, so I collect old books for his from like the, you know, 1900 to like 1920, like if you can get those old first editions. Because like when you read those, it's a different,

It's a different thing than, you know, reading on a screen or whatever. Sure, sure. And you can feel how old the book is. I think those are those kind of like old books excite me. Yeah. I don't know why. Do you have a favorite video game of all time? Let me think.

You mean like a, you know, you mean like PlayStation or the old? I think it could be like Pac-Man or it could be, you know, Grand Theft Auto 6, whatever you want. Well, I suck at all video games, I think, ultimately. I had a few good years as a 12-year-old with Galaxia. Is that the right one? Yeah.

You know, and you're right? Yeah. I had a few good runs at that. But I can't really, yeah, but I can't. We're going to roll with the console in and see if you still got it. Yeah, I mean, I don't think, you know, I wasn't good at Donkey Kong or any of those things. And I did play a, I did, I did. I wanted to play some video games because I realized that's what the movies were.

Yeah. So I was like, I might as well figure out what this is. Yeah. It's a bigger industry than film now. It's by far. But also you can see the influence too. So a lot of the movies are, you know, that are the same moves that are in the video games. You talked to like Yermin Datoro.

He's like, all the storytelling is happening in video games right now, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I thought it'd be silly not to check them out. So I checked some stories out and got through a couple ones. I got through one that was really, really hard, but then I thought, I just kind of mad at the video game because it made me spend that much time trying to get past things. But I did the Callisto Protocol, which was just a gruesome cyberspace zombie horror show. But somehow I finished. Sounds like the worst exercise regimen ever, the Calypso Protocol.

Yeah, it was it was gruesome. It was gory. Dakota Johnson asked me this. Don't blame me. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt? Mouthful of, mouthtful of bees? I mean, there's no right answer. I don't think there is.

There isn't. What's the wallpaper on your phone? I don't know. Okay. That's an honest answer. Right. Like, I don't know. Okay.

I mean, I suck it. It's like a kind of like a lot of generally. Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of like a bit of a ludite, yeah. Who's the last actor you were mistaken for? Does I never have? happen? Well, yeah, I think sometimes, or sometimes they mistake me for being in a different film. Oh. There's the very famous video, the American Beauty woman. Right, right, right,

where she thought I was Kevin Spacey. She was, you were very sweet about it, for the record. She insisted you were in American Beauty and you had to gently say, no. I remember one guy, I was at some political event at some, uh, congressman was like, hey, Ferris Bueller. I didn't know whether he had mistaken me or he was insulting me or I don't, but it was just like kind of a New York thing. Harris Bueller. Hey, Harris Bueller. I mean, like, I guess that was. Matthew's great too, but no, he's awesome.

But I don't, I don't know if he thought I was Ferris Bueller or he was just like, yeah, you're one of those guys. Yeah. It's better than Kevin Spacey. We'll take Matthew Broderick over that. What's the worst note of director has ever given you? Good question. The worst. a director's ever given me.

You know what? I probably blocked it out. Yeah, well, that's probably for the best. Because I can't remember. Is there a type of direction that you just don't respond to? Like what's an ideal versus a, an unhelpful direction? You know, it's kind of a, maybe a pretentious answer, but as long as the overall aesthetic of the film is clear, there's lots of ways to make movies, right?

Yeah. David in Krodenberg, for example, he's every, he wants you to do every line, like when I did maps of the stars, he wants you to do every line as written and even with an emphasis, you know, is, not was. Yep. And, but he has a very clear version to it because he like, he makes things slower than naturalism so that it starts to feel like you're being lulled into some trance, right? That works as films are hypnotic, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know. There's a rhyme to the reason. There's a reason why he's doing that, right? Now, and then you could work with Woody Allen. And Woody Allen literally would say, and there were some of the best scripts you've ever read. I mean, I know what's happened to him later, but the work is undeniable. Working with him was, you know, he was certainly very assured.

And he'd have the best written scripts you could read. And I was doing this great monologue. And he came up to me as, you know, hey, you know, just step on it. You know, if you don't want to say these words, say your own. but like puts him your nose and ends in there and, you know, just make it your own. One of the great writers giving you that thing. And I was like, no, no, but I said,

it's really good. You're really good at this. Like I was just wanted to get what he wrote. But he just looked at me and went, trust me, it's not that good. And he walked away. But the point of it was he didn't want it to sound written. Yeah. He didn't want, he didn't, that wasn't his goal.

He wanted it to sound like musically, like people are talking. Right. And he also knew that when actors come up with stuff, all of a sudden, you know, there's a lot. There's a little energy, right? So he, that was his aesthetic, right? Yeah. And that works.

As long as there's a consistency, you say. It's like, like, so, you know, what you don't want to do is get a direction from someone. Like, you have to have a point of view. Yeah. To have a coherent thought. If you don't have any point of view, then your notes, if you don't have a point of view on the material, then you're probably going to just be saying talking shit. Diane Wiesst's doing Don't Speak iconic forever forever that was in that was improvised really yeah both over Broadway that she won her an Oscar yeah and that you know and then at the end

chas did it to me right right that was yeah or like when uh yeah so there's a lot of room for that and like when I I usually write where I'm hoping I'm going to be in it and thinking I'm going to be in it but what I'll also do is I'll especially when you're writing comedies or something, I'll get it like 70 to 80% done, but I don't want to finish it because I want the actors to finish it, right? And then, so if I'm working with, like, Alan Arkin or my sister Joan or Dan Aykroyd,

I know what they're going to do. They're going to come in and they're going to have these things that they want to do and they're going to look at the scene and they're going to take the good parts of the scene, but they're going to challenge it. They're going to make it better. Yeah, give them the bones.

And then one of the other producers like, well, what is he doing the script? I said, you should be. so lucky that Alan you should be so lucky Alan Arkin wants to make the script better like just let him cook like watch and learn like these guys are great and so then also like and then the actors when they sort of finish it and then they can come up with the dialogue that is just as good as anything we've written then they own it in a way that sure that you can see on film you know so there's all

those types of things but and then there's but there's no one way to work right Like I worked with Sir Ben Kingsley and he came on and we were doing a political vaudeville thing with Mark Lainer at War Inc. and we had Dan and he loved it and he wanted to do it and he came to Bulgaria and he said one thing, don't change the script. I want to memorize what you have and I want to do what's written. I was like, you got it. Yeah. Of course. You got it.

And then, you know, so he'd have these long things. And he came in, like Bulgaria. Yeah. Like got into the Bulgarian garbage truck. I was like, boom, boom, boom. Like an assassin nailed it. You know, whereas other actors, they don't do well. Unless they make it sort of improvisational, you know, it doesn't work, right?

What size does not fit all you got to? Yeah. Or like I remember the, in Jennifer Tilly, who I think she won an Oscar or got nominated. She's got nominated, yeah. Should have won. She was so funny. But her dialogue was written, and then at some point her and Woody said, look, just don't stop talking. And she just talked.

She just went on and on. But none of that was written. That was just Jennifer fucking going. Yeah. So that's... Those are tools that you've got and take advantage of them when you found. Yeah, and it's different things for different, you know, it depends on the kind of movie it is or, you know, who the actors are.

No improv on a Fincher set, an improv on, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, know the right vibe. All right, last thing. Happy, second, Fused. Actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're in a better mood. First one that comes to mind. There are so many.

Well, I love CNN, just because I just love CNN. Yeah. Movie that makes you sad. A movie that guts you. Yeah, puts you through the emotional ringer. Maybe there's a tear. to. Okay, a devastating movie.

Yeah. This will be good because it's not a normal one, but there is a movie. Sidney LaMette and Sean Connery had a very interesting time together where Sean was like a, you know, a big movie star but wanted to do deeper work. Right. And Sidney was a up-and-coming director who wanted to do great work. And they sort of met and did a couple movies together. Yeah.

that are so dark and so devastating, they're, yeah, you're just, one of them is called The Hill. I've heard of this film, I've never seen it. With Ozzie Davis and Rory, can you, the Pythonesque actor, the, you know, he was in Three Musketeers, he was in, he's Veruca Salt's dad, like the great, got it, right, and he's in it and dramatic role and Sean Connery's in it, and, and, and Sean Connery's in it, And it'll take you to some dark places. It is brutal.

Amen. You know, brutal like in the paths of glory kind of way. And then there was another one he made with him that's almost like a pinteresque thing. And I can't remember the name of it, but he plays a detective in Scotland who has to investigate like a child murder case. Sounds fun. And well, it's, you ask me like, it's devastating. I'm in for devastating when Matt Connery any day of the week. Oh, my God.

Two of them. They're, I mean, they're dark. There's our tip of the day. And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. I get confused if I eat it or? Why would people eat that? I don't want that around me.

Anything with anchovies. Just too much. Too strong, too. I don't understand the allure of really, really, really smelly, fish. Like, I don't want to eat that. I don't even want to be around it. I don't want to look at it. Trigger him. Yeah. 100% on the test. Thank you, sir. Congratulations, man. This has been such a treat. Honestly, as you can tell, I'm a huge fan of all your work. And we just hit the tip of the iceberg. But most importantly, hopefully we've spread the good word. We've got to support John Kusack and

his crazy, amazing endeavors. MoMo is the graphic novel. There's going to be more of this. If you've ever wanted to see John's brain exploded onto some beautiful pages illustrated by Ignacio Noah. And there will be the next printings, we're going to, are going to have this QR code so that when you go and see music like that comes on the radio or you see Hawaii 50 on a TV, you'll be able to press a QR code and hear it and see it. So, you know, there's tricks. I love it. You've always got tricks up your sleeve. Keep creating whatever the medium will follow you. John, it's been an absolute pleasure.

I appreciate you. Pleasure is mine. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Hey, I'm Ashley, host of Crime Salad.

And every week, my husband, Ricky, joins me as my partner, in crime. We know the true crime space is crowded, so we skip the loud, bubbly small talk and get straight to the facts of the most gripping cases. If you want to see what we're all about, check out our recent two-parter deep dive. She saved him. Can You Save Her? Covering the baffling Rebecca Zahow case. If you want a true crime podcast that feels authentic and respects the details, come check us out. Search Crime Salad wherever you get your podcast.