Happy Sad Confused - Jon Bernthal

Episode Date: November 20, 2017

Jon Bernthal knows how lucky he is. "Art has saved my life," he says on this episode of "Happy Sad Confused". In truth, it's a lot more than luck that's gotten Bernthal to where he is today, a much in demand actor on the big and small screen.  Bernthal has definitely had an atypical journey, from getting his nose broken more times than he can count to studying his craft in Moscow. He talks about it all with Josh including how "The Walking Dead" turned his life around and how the premature departure of executive producer Frank Darabont rattled him. Plus, Jon and Josh talk about their mutual love for Shia LaBeouf and why The Punisher is the comic character Bernthal was best suited for.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get after him or have you shot You mean blow up the building From this moment on None of you are safe New episodes every Wednesday Wherever you get your podcasts Today on Happy Sack Confused, John Bernthal on The Punisher, The Walking Dead, and being a reformed screw-up. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz.

I'm not a reform screw-up, just a screw-up. But I do have a podcast. I'm able to do that at least. Thanks again, guys, for tuning in to another episode of Happy Sack Confused. I was going to say our weekly episode, but in the next few weeks, there is an embarrassment of riches. it's holiday movie season, it's getting to be awards season, there's just a lot of cool folks kind of making the rounds, so I'm pleased to say, I've been having a lot of very cool conversations.

So a bunch of great guests coming up on Happy Set Confused, including some of the stars of the biggest films of the holiday season. So look forward to that, but for now I want to talk about this week's guest. Again, it's not this week because there's another guest coming up. guest. John Bernthal is the guest, who you probably know. I hope you know. If you listen to this podcast, you know your shit. But in case you don't know the name, you know the face. John Bernthal has done a thousand great roles, both on television and film. As I mentioned in the intro, he probably is best known for his role on, I think, the first two seasons of The Walking

Dead. But since then, especially since The Walking Dead, which kind of propelled him. He's been a staple on the big screen, kind of like, mostly in kind of character roles. Like he popped up in the David Air film, Fury, last year in The Accountant, the Wolf of Wall Street, baby driver this past year. He's a wind river, another scene stealing role. And now he's returning to television for The Punisher. Of course, he was Frank Castle. I think it was on season two of Daredevil. And now in a new 13 episode run of his own.

Netflix. It is all available for you now. I watched the first few episodes. So you might even be ahead of me by now on a Punisher. But this is a, you know, a huge opportunity for an actor who really deserves it. I, you know, I definitely, I have a little bit of a man-crush thing on John Bernthal. He's just, he's just, he has like a cool, I don't know. I mean, I think I think I use the phrase like like a dignity, like a gravitas to when I talk to him. And I mean that. I think he has a true presence on screen that is just very reassuring as a, he can be a great supporting actor and a leading man. So I think he's one that I'm excited to sort of see where his career goes. He's getting more and more great opportunities.

And he's, you know, he's just, he's shooting nonstop because right now he's getting the chance to work with great people. He's, you know, we talk a little bit about how he's about to go shoot the new Damien Chiselle movie. Of course, Damien Chazel, who did Lala Land. He just shot something with Stephen McQueen, who did 12 years of slave. It's fair to say, you're going to see John Burrampthal pop up in a lot of great stuff in the next few years. Also, I know there are probably a bunch of Walking Dead fans that listen to this show. We talked a bunch about Walking Dead, and it's interesting stuff that I wanted to get into was this kind of legendary dust-up at the end of the first season where Frank Darabont, who helped create Walking Dead. was basically, he came to blows with AMC.

And you can read all about this if you, like, Google it. But like it's kind of like a big, one of the major kind of creative disputes in recent years on television. And it happened over this, you know, burgeoning phenomena. And it's interesting to hear John's perspective on the whole thing. And I hadn't heard him talk at length about the whole Frank Darabond Walking Dead fiasco before. So worth checking that out on this week's episode. So that's a little tease for you. Enjoy this conversation with John Bernthal.

As always, remember, guys, go to iTunes, rate, review, and subscribe. If you review the podcast, good chance I might read out your review right here on the air. That's right. You'll be famous. Speaking of famous, here's our big-time guest, Mr. John Bernthal. Oh, my God, look, it's John Bernthal. Boy, boy, man, it's good. He just snuck up on me there.

Rock and roll, man, I'm here. Very cool. Hey, that's a pretty cool thing, too. Which, do you like the Willow? The Michael Shannon, non-sexual escort, cash only. As you can imagine, it gets a lot of attention when people sit down. Yeah, man. It's staring right at me.

It's making me feel weird things. I'll share the sketch with you after the podcast, and you can decide how you feel about it. You're still supporting it. Okay, okay. Okay, I'll be honest. I'll be honest. It's good to be here. Good morning to you.

Welcome. We're going to talk about a lot of things. We've got some time on our hands, but first and form. most, we should mention, excuse me, the Punisher, Punisher, which is long in the making, long in the anticipation for fans. Congratulations, man. I've seen a bunch of the episodes, and it's great work, as always. I appreciate you saying that. So let's circle around, though, for a second, because the last time I saw you, you probably don't remember this, because it was briefly in San Diego where everybody goes insane during Comic Con. You're, uh, yeah, that's messed up, man, because when

I walked in, I knew that I, that we had hung out before, man. This kind of face. You can't, you can't Yeah, it's a beautiful face, man. But I thought you said nice to meet you. Well, I go with that. And I said, good to see you again. You know what I did? I didn't say meet. I'm usually on the wrong side of those kinds of you.

You're projecting now, John. Okay, fair enough. No, I said, good to see you. Did you? I think I, that's my conscious. Hey, man, it's great to you again, real. It's good to see again. Yeah, yeah, rock and we go way back.

Okay, cool. But I was going to say, here's something I was struck by on a conversation. Before we even had the interview that day, we were just chit-chatting and you were telling me about, oh, which I know is home or a place where you spend a lot of time. Then I saw Wind River, like a week or two later, and you're talking all about Ohai in that film. So was that coincidence, or did you tell Taylor, hey, can I talk a little Ohio in this? You know, you don't tell Taylor anything. You know, I look, Taylor's, you know, he's great, man.

And, you know, it's the second time I worked with him. I did Sicario as well. And he and I got together after, I didn't meet him on Sicario, but. I was just, you know, I'm blown away by his work, and I'm blown away by the fact that he was an actor first, and he's just one of those guys, the more you know him, the more you respect him, the more you love him, and he's just one of those guys that means a lot to me.

And, you know, he reached out after Sicario, and he sort of dug where we went with the character. And, you know, on Wind River, he really, you know, he asked me to come on and do the film, just do a day of work, but he told me it was going to be a big sort of important scene. And, you know, he worked. extremely in an extremely collaborative fashion on that scene. And we kind of constructed it that day. And yeah, he said, let's come up with a little something about Ohio. He also has sort of

has become a bit allergic to Los Angeles and he's a family first guy, same way I am. And we both sort of have our lives way, way, way outside of the business. And it's something of of real mutual understanding. And, you know, with, yeah, it was something that we just sort of came up with. And he let me put a little bit of my own life in there. Is it fun for you to kind of come in? And, I mean, that's unusual in a film like that. It's a great film from start to finish.

It's so tense. But even in a tense film, that's like the sequence in the film that kind of turns the story and kind of, in some ways, is kind of the tense high point of that film. I think of something like you mentioned, Sakaria, you only have a couple scenes in that. Same thing, yeah, yeah. It's my favorite thing to do, to be honest with you. You know, and not just because you're in and out super quick.

You don't have to work that long. But I think it's a real, you know, it's a real challenge as an actor, as an actor, but it's a challenge, man. And you come in, you know, my buddy James Badge Dale, who's, you know, a dear friend of my, he calls it just like being a hired assassin, you know, like you come in and the thing's already in motion. And, you know, you have to come in and present a character in just a short period of time. But you've got to have a sense of history. You've got to have a sense of that.

You've got to have a real backstory to the guy. And you've got to, you know, for it to resonate, it's got to, it really, you know, if done right, you can sort of get the back of the authenticity of the movie to show that there's real characters that are lived in. And they walk out that door, what happens to that go out. Yeah, and like you could make a, you could make your own thing about those people. And it's really kind of my favorite thing to do. And what's great about is, you know, I think a lot of people sort of get to a place in their career where they look at the size of the role. And that's just never been a thing for me. I look at the script and the director.

And, you know, if it's a great project, I just want to be in it. And I just want to be able to come in and sort of, you know, throw the hammer down for a second. And I'm really thrilled and grateful that I get those opportunities, and I'm grateful to Taylor for let me have it. And I thought it was a really bold bit of structural storytelling to kind of do the flashback when he did. And, you know, it was a challenge. I mean, basically what he said is he wanted this guy. I mean, I know it's a spoiler, but he wanted this, when that door opened, he wanted everybody to think, oh, this guy. And you see my ugly face and you're like, okay, this guy's the bastard that did it.

You know, but then within the next five minutes, you know, really show that there's real love between these two and believe in them and root for them. And, you know, what an awesome, what an awesome challenge, what an awesome opportunity. Do people often say to you that you, I mean, you strike me, this might be a cliche, but like, as kind of a throwback actor. You remind me of, you know, and I don't want to blow smoke up your ass, but, like, truly, like, you feel like cut from a cloth of, like, I think of, like, Pacino, like, and, like, De Niro, those kinds of actors back then that had, like, an innate, um, intensity, decency, um, lived inness. Like, there's something, like, very, like, true and authentic about you on screen, which is obviously the goal for any actor. Were those kind of, like, your guys? Like, are you? Oh, man, I'm afraid, look, man, I really appreciate you. I'm a, as you can tell, I'm a big fan of your work. Thanks, man. And, like, when you pop on screen, I always feel like, okay, I'm in good hands. And this guy, whether he's in it for five minutes or the whole 100 minutes, whatever, that's, it works.

You know, a lot of it. Look, man, I think, look, this, it really means a lot to me. It really, I really do kind of care about the work a lot. and I feel like this art, you know, has really saved my life in a lot of ways and I owe a lot to it. And I think I'm one of these people who, look, I've been like mashed in the face a lot. I have a face that's sort of been through a lot, fortunately or unfortunately, and I lived a lot of life. And then I sort of, you know, I studied acting for a long time and I studied in a place where, you know, I studied in Moscow. So I studied in a place where, you know, the stakes were really high.

in terms of learning and and and and and um it really really meant something and mattered and and and by all means you know the guys like de Niro and Pacino and the sort of actors of the 70s were you know my heroes and and when I saw the energy you know I said this to what I did this kind of goofy movie with grudge match right. Grudge match yeah but you know I had a chance to to work with you know Mr. De Niro and and and uh you know I had like eight or nine scenes with him and it was you know a real thrill for me and and um you I told him as much as he did not want to hear it, you know, on the last day. And I really gave him this space. I had to tell him, but I said, hey, look, man, you know, I'm a guy who's

been in all kinds of trouble in my life and I've been through all sorts of things. But, you know, seeing the work that he did and he's done and the energy that he tapped into, you know, I had that same energy within me. And any time I tapped into that energy, it landed me in trouble. And it made me, it caused pain in my life until I found this, until I found this thing where I could tap into that kind of energy and I could get uh respect from people and and I could make people think and feel and um it's really you know now I'm a dad and a husband and I have a home and I'm I'm extremely grateful uh to people like that with that energy you show me that there's a path for that right um there's also I think uh you know you know I'm not a very pretty uh person and so I think that

that also you know has um helped in a way you know I think it's it's only sort of made me available for certain kind of work. And I think that that ended up sort of being right in the wheelhouse of the kind of work that I really love to do. Is that the kind of thing that, like, that agents or whatever have said to you in the past? Like, you know, you're good, but like you don't have the face to be like. No, no. I mean, I think, you know, man, I just remember in the beginning of my career.

It was like, you know, look, I had, I was a, you know, my work was all in the theater. And I love being a theater actor. And I, I, I've been on stage all over the world. And I really was very confident. confident in that and extremely experienced in that. You know, I had a theater company. I act all over Italy and Russia and D.C. where I grew up. And it's just that's my passion. That's my heart.

But, you know, when I came to sort of try to get on film, you know, everything that I was thrown out towards was, you know, soap operas and romantic comedies and to just feel the absolute what is this mongrel doing in this room? Like you could say you could come into the room. Yeah, you disgusting creature. with the nose and those ears like what you know and so uh you know i think a lot of times you know my first you can be on a cw show with that face yeah yeah you're disgusting you know and it's like palpable when you know and you know fortunately unfortunately i think a lot of people in this country

maybe of a certain type kind of get into this because of sort of like appearance or because of you know looking cool or i don't know that was just never really my deal and um so i i i think i'm I think I'm, you know, at the time, it felt like completely daunting and overwhelming and like, shit, man, this is like never going to work out in this way. But I think what happened was eventually I started to get to meet people like, you know, Oliver Stone and Polanski and like people who gave me my first kind of few breaks and they were sort of looking for something else. And, you know, I'm, I'm extremely lucky, you know. So where were you focusing, you know, you kind of alluded to the fact that you were kind of a little, your energies weren't going into the right place as a kid. that you were a little, whether it was unfocused or maybe you were focused on the wrong things. Where was that aggression heading towards just getting into trouble?

Just sort of like... Yeah, you know, trouble my whole life. I mean, look, man, I was an athlete. You know, I played baseball, football, boxer, you know, all that stuff. But I think that, you know, I grew up in a really crazy time in a really crazy city. I grew up in D.C., you know, in the 90s, you know, and it was nuts there. And I, you know, I just, you know, I had every sort of opportunity. as a kid. I just think that like, you know, my best friends are still the guys that I, I

was best friends with when I was eight years old. We grew up together. It was just sort of this perfect storm of, of, of, of, of maniacs, you know, we just really had a nose for, for, um, adventure. And, and we got each other's back and we stood alongside each other, no matter what happened, no matter what went down. And, and, uh, but yeah, you know, it was it, and I think, you know, I think about a lot now as a father. I think, you know, when you sort of label a kid and when you when the energy towards a kid is very clearly all one thing like you're you're a troublemaker you're a little criminal you're a little monster i think that's a self-fulfilling prophecy i think so man i think it's i think it's you start to you know i think

people want to know sort of where they fit into the world and and and i think for a very long time i was like pretty sure the whole world was telling me this is this is kind of who you are and And again, you know, when this, this, when I found acting, I found it, you know, relatively late. I didn't do it as a kid. And, and when I found it, all of a sudden I got this other energy from people and, like, you know, like in a, in like a classroom setting, which I was only, like, kicked out of classes and, like, asked not to be around those kinds of kids. And, you know, it was, it was unbelievably fulfilling. And then, and then the feeling of actually getting on stage and, you know, committing to something and, and going all out. And again, tapping into this wildness that had only led me into trouble and harnessing it in some way.

You know, I mean, it was such a gift. I'm so grateful to the woman who really sort of told me, hey, you can do this and pushed me that way. Was that in D.C.? No, that was in, I went to college to play baseball, and I took a class. I took an acting class. I've told the story before. So stop me if I've told you. But like, you know, I took a class almost.

You know, by mistake, man, I thought I was, you know, I was an athlete and I thought I was signing up for a class where there would be like 200 of us in the room watching movies and you could like drop acid and watch movies. But I ended up in like the class for like the serious actor majors, you know, like 10 people. And I was like, what am I doing here? And they were all in the second class, everybody was sitting on the floor. Even though there was chairs right there, everybody sat on the fucking floor. And, you know, we were sitting there and everybody. had to bring in something that meant a lot to them and the first person brought in like a blues traveler city that her boyfriend gave her and she was like crying about it and like these are the weirdest

kids I've ever seen but like slowly but surely it was moving its way towards me and I didn't bring anything obviously but I was going to fall baseball practice right afterwards so I had my catcher's glove so I launched into this story about like how my mom had given me this catcher's glove on her deathbed meanwhile she's alive and well back in DC and like I'm looking at everyone And I'm crying my eyes out. And the whole room is crying their eyes out. And I'm like, oh, my God. You know, like, wait, I'm just doing the acting, man.

That's amazing. But you didn't really like Blue's Traveler, did you? I thought you were acting too. Yeah, yeah. I thought this is bullshit. And that's what we're doing. And, you know, this woman, you know, she, her name is Alma Becker. And she's just this unbelievable, magical, badass woman.

She'd come from the Sam Shepard days in San Francisco in the 60s, the magic theater. And, like, you know, she just saw something in me. And she had me auditioned for a play. And I got into the play. was it. And then, you know, I couldn't finish college because of certain troubles. And, you know, I went to her and I said, hey, I really want to do this. You know, this is, this is, I love this. And she knew I loved it. And she was the one who had me moved to Moscow and start studying over there. And then she ended up marrying my wife and I. And she was really an angel in my life and, and changed,

change really everything for me. And, you know, yeah, I don't think I would, I would be here or be, you know, I I know I wouldn't if it wasn't for Alma, yeah. So what's the environment? I've heard a lot of theater schools in my time. I've not heard about a theater school in Moscow, this one in particular. Was this one that like, were there Americans there? Were you working with like Russian kids? Yeah, I mean, look, man, it's totally different than anything.

I mean, for me, I don't think I really would have responded well to American theater training. And that's not to, you know, that's not to condemn it or to, you know, look down on it or, you know, it's just a very different thing. highly, highly, highly disciplined. You know, they see thousands of kids, they basically take 100, and then every semester they cut the class in half, right? So they only graduate, like, 10 kids.

And it's extremely disciplined and extremely honest. It's movement. It's ballet. It's acrobatics. If you're not good, they tell you you're not good and you're done. And in a way, it's kind of a more humane thing where I think a lot of American theater training is pretty coddling. It's a place where, like, you can do no wrong.

And it's like, hey, pay your money. and, well, you know, you do the best you can. There's, like, no best you can there. But, you know, with that. I've heard the stories of Juilliard being cut through like that where it's not, I mean. I think so. I mean, I don't know what Juilliard is like, you know. I tried to get into Juilliard.

They didn't let me, you know. But, you know, I think that, you know, I know that over there, it was just, you know, to be a teacher there is kind of the highest honor you can achieve. Right. And being an artist in Russia, period, it's just. it's an unbelievably strong, for lack of a better word, it's a very masculine profession there to be an actor. You know, if you go around Moscow,

there's statues of playwrights and poets and painters. And there's a real national pride in being an artist. And it's a very strong profession. You've got to remember, you know, in the period before I was there, I was there in the very late 90s, which was crazy, man. I was like the Wild West when I was there. And, you know, in the time before I was there, you know, there was no public gatherings.

Public gatherings were illegal, you know. So, you know, there was no, you know, to do theater, it had to be state-sponsored theater. And the place where I studied at in Moscow Art Theater was Stavski's Theater and Chekhov's Theater. You know, they were a state-sponsored theater, but when the state would come and see shows, they would sort of scrutinize and see whether it was a pro-state message. And once that was turned, I mean, Meyerhold, who was a huge director that he was assassinated in his apartment, actors were sent off to Siberia. I mean, my teachers, Igo Roman and Sergei, three guys who came to school there during communist times, they did this play in secret called Shenzano, where they did it in this secret location, and the audience would sneak into the secret location and watch the play. Had they been found, they would have all been sent to prison, you know, for doing this play and for going and watching this play. And every month they'd find a new secret location, and they still do the play as an honor to it.

But every month, they'd find a new place. so for those people there was a there's a real vitality to it there was a real risk the stakes were high so like you better give it all you know you better if you're going to get up there you better be you better be bringing something and i you know the vitality of that and the the um the danger in that was something that i just you know like spoke right to me i i loved it and for me it really made me connect with something much bigger i think the brutality and the beauty of moscow totally changed my life and made me amazing made me an artist and you know i went there thinking i was a real tough shit from from from dc and all this stuff but i didn't know anything man and and and and and a place i i feel i owe everything too now i understand even more like the culture shock because you come out of that and i don't know if you went straight to l.A but like that it's it's one it's a 180 yeah i mean what was crazy is i got to see pretty head on because while i was there harvard has a graduate school for acting and they saw me in a play over there and they were like what are you doing you know and and so they helped me get into graduate

school at harvard even though i mean harvard dude even though i'd never finished college and i was like in all kinds of trouble back in the states like it was crazy like anybody who knew me from growing up i would like literally like i would like wear my harvard in massachusetts yeah dude like you mean like harvard correctional facility like what are you talking about but um you know but i got to see sort of head on the difference between russia and Harvard and and and and and and uh the difference was like major you know and and and and and yeah man and then you know i i went to new york i had a theater company in new york and you know we all lived in bushwick together and i was really into the sort of the avant-garde theater scene

and i really never wanted to do anything on camera i was really an arrogant little shitty actor who sort of thought that that was selling out and selling your soul and then i started doing plays in New York, and I saw that the people who were getting all the good roles in New York were people who had done TV and film. So it was really sort of a strategic thing. And then once I started really working in film and TV, I fell in love with that process. And I, whereas theater was something that was, you know, insanely athletic to me and courageous to me and risky to me, I found film, you know, a place where you could be really strategic and really nuanced and were, and unbelievably collaborative. And, you know, I really fell in love with it.

I always bring up to Oliver Stone when it pops up on somebody's filmography because, again, we're at roughly the same age and his films really had an impact on me growing up. I remember, like, JFK, like blowing my brain out at the time when I saw it, no pun intended, that's horrible. But that was your first probably major director you worked with, right? It was insane. So what do you remember of working with Oliver? You know, everything, it's funny, man. I've been thinking about this a bunch recently. I feel like I learned some of my biggest sort of Hollywood lessons on that film.

It was a very small role, but, you know, there's two sort of specific lessons that I learned on that. Number one, so, you know, the film obviously was extremely sensitive. It was World Trade Center. It was five years after 9-11, you know, and it was my first real job, you know. and I went through like an insane audition process and, you know, obviously I really, you know, he was a hero of mine and is a hero of mine. And, you know, first of all, there was a whole sort of part of that movie where one of the things that, one of the things that I thought was greatest about that script is, you know, every first responder that went into that building, all cell phone reception was dying. So everyone sort of said to each other, hey, man, if I don't. make it tell

and my wife tell my kids I love them you know and it was something that really affected me and I thought was sort of the most honest thing because anybody who I talked to said that that's exactly what went down and you know the guy I played Chris Amoroso he was a

he was a New York City Port Authority police officer who worked at the bus terminal right which they were called BT dogs it was sort of like where the most badass Port Authority cops went you know the bus terminal in Manhattan is serious place. And that morning, he was switched to the World Trade Center and he was not happy about it because it's a really boring post. When the planes hit, he went up that day and he carried a woman down

and he brought her down and he suffered like a huge laceration on his face. And when he was coming down, his bus terminal guys were walking up. He saw his best friends coming up. So he put the woman down, got her to safety and went back up and never made it out. He left the youngest, widow, his wife, Jamie, and his brand new daughter, Sophia. So, you know, when I got the part, I wrote this letter to them, just saying, you know, I can't do this without your blessing, and I want to invite you to be a part of memorializing Chris, and he belongs to you and to God, and not to some douchebag actor from, from L.A., you know, and I just want, you know, and, you know, the producers on the film, there was a lot of touchy stuff with wives and this and that, and they

sort of nixed it. They wouldn't let it get to her. Now, Oliver being Oliver was something that was really, really important to him was the research component of that, which I now, that's my jam. Like that is my favorite part of doing this. And especially when you get to be a part of something

with a real budget, you know, they really you know, I was just telling you on Damien's new movie, you know, like I just spent a week at NASA, you know, I mean, with real astronauts and like real stuff, you know, it's incredible. Like, who gets that? And like, you know, if you, and Oliver's all about that. And So we got to go to the bus terminal and for a month got to walk the beat as much as you want.

So I was there every day and I met Officer Fairbanks and Sergeant Finney who are Chris's like two best friends in real life. And these guys were just are the cool. I mean, they're the best guys in the world. And the things that they were like me too, man, I'm not going to talk about it, but like good gracious. Like we were getting into it. And we just, we really started like each other. And, you know, it was crazy is because of sort of this kind of. of thing with the producers and the wives they had to pull that whole component out of the movie they

couldn't mention anybody by name which i thought was sort of the best part of it and i told them how upset i was that that i couldn't reach out to to to uh jamie you know chris's wife and uh they threw back channels hooked me up with her and like and i don't know it was it was and then you know we got to talk and i got to say what i wanted to say and it was it was great you know and we really connected and kept in touch. And I felt real blessed for that, but it was a huge lesson about, you know, never to get sort of confused or disjointed by the smoke in the mirrors of Hollywood,

but to keep it as human as possible. And so it was a really big lesson for me. I know it was like a long answer to a short-out's question. No, and I promise we'll get to punish her. I want to hit up a couple other key points in your career because I find the filmmakers and the actors you worked with fascinating. Fury for one, which, you know, I've known Shia for a long while, and I'm a big fan of him just personally and professionally.

It's my guy, man. I know you are, too. Yeah, I love him. I feel like he's misunderstood by a lot of people because, like, his heart is in the right place, whatever troubles he's had. His heart's so damn big, dude. Right? The guy's got the biggest heart in the world.

So, can you, give me a snapshot of working on something like that, which was a very unique project, I know. Fury, David Eyre, who's, again, a guy that does not suffer fools and just, like, is pretty serious about the way he goes about it and that could also describe the way shy approaches the work and seems the way you you approach work too did it feel like you it was kind of like simpatico in terms of like the way that environment was kind of your ideal or was that my ideal yeah i mean i mean 100% uh insanity 100% commitment 100% uh full i mean look you know uh david's a vet you know he's uh he's he's he's he's really live life i i think on that film you know you

Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, it was one of those things where it wasn't bluster or bravado. It wasn't like, hey, look how hard I'm working, you know, like David said it up that, you know, it was eight months, three months of pre-production, living on a tank, pissing, crapping, eating on the tank, sleeping on the tank, knowing the tank, you know, there are no days off on that film, you know, if there's something exterior with the tank that was us operating it, even though, you know, you'd never see us. which is rare. You know, you had this guy, Kevin Vance, who's become one of my best friends in the world, who's just an unbelievable Navy SEAL, one top frog. Like, he's just, you know, just like an unbelievable American hero. He sort of, like, handled our boot camps and our buds courses and stuff like that.

But, you know, look, you know, we, in a movie like that, you know, you're making a movie about a bunch of guys who are basically going through hell in a metal box you know and it was the most dangerous job in World War II and you know we're at the end of the day a bunch of actors who operate under the umbrella of complete safety so

I think we all collectively felt that any opportunity for full exposure any opportunity for danger any opportunity to raise the stakes as much as we possibly could we ran towards the

flame in that so you know no restaurants no internet no TV no no communication with your family um you know um you know they're sparring every day all the guys spar to each other i just spar the stunt guys and the and you know he's got a he's got a martial arts teacher uh richard mesquita who's awesome me and him fought every single day of that movie every single day after work we would go into a room and just fight each other and uh i was so grateful to that and and uh you know you get a guy like shya shia shia takes the work so unbelievably serious he creates danger on the set. I mean, he just creates danger on the set. You never know what he's

going to do. And for me, man, I would roll with him anywhere. I love that. I loved that. I loved how, yeah, man, he could pop off. And, you know, he's, he's equal opportunity. It didn't matter if it was Brad Pitt. Didn't matter if it was a producer. It didn't matter if it was someone from craft services. If you are in any way getting in the way of us finding truth and going full out you're going to get it you're like gonna get it and and for me awesome awesome bring it on you know and and and i think i you know i love that there was there was a closeness that we all got from living in that tank for for for eight months like i know what these guys smell like i know i know every i know every nook and cranny of these guys personality and i love them like

we'll be a family forever and i've been in things where you get really close with people and you're like oh it's great you know people talk oh it's so it's so sort of um euphoric on, I'm sorry, utopian on sets. You know, this was not, like, this was not. It was, yeah, but it was I think we'll all look back at it and just love that process

beyond description, yeah. I'm fascinated because of this kind of stuff you talk about, I mean, you know, cut it off from your family, for instance, during that film. And this kind of apply to something like Punisher, which is, you know, a tough character, not like kind of a fun headspace to be in for an extended period of time. Is there,

you know, how is your family with, kind of like where the places you have to go and how are you like balancing that out where like you know you still have to be a husband and a father yeah um and you also have to honor this profession and this this work is it do you find that's becoming more of a challenge it's something you found a balance on or something you're still struggling with or what yeah i mean it is i mean that that's everything i mean you you you said it and and and uh i think with anything you know there's no way to master fatherhood you know there's no way to like master yeah got it got it and i think the same way about my work. I think what's

great about it is to have a really honest relationship with it, with art, with fatherhood, with being a husband. And to me, it's never about being like, I'm there. I've arrived. I think it's always striving to be better, striving to learn, admitting your mistakes, learning from your mistakes. You know, it is

the major issue of my life. And I'll tell you the way I deal with it, I mean, look, I have to be away for long periods of time, and isolation is a huge part of my job. I streamlined my life and I trimmed a lot of fat off of it right so you won't see me at bars

you won't see me you know at restaurants like while I'm working having it like if I'm away from my family I'm you know I'm putting my name and I'm putting my kid's name on that project they're going to look at it some way and they're going to know why dad was gone my main

sort of philosophy and all this for me doesn't work for everybody but for me is you just got to be where you are while you're there and so for me while I'm with my family, we live out in the country, it's just us, phones down, I don't, I'm not worrying about work, I'm not thinking about work, I'm dad, I'm coach, I'm husband, I'm, I'm, I'm there, you know, I am with them. And when I'm gone, I'm gone. And I've never felt pain like I've been in situations where I've had to be away from people.

You know, when I went to Moscow, you know, it was, no internet, no internet, no, phone, you know, I just, bye-bye, you know, see you in a couple years. And there's nothing like being away from your kids, especially young kids, where you can't, you know, it's guilt, it's shame, it's, it's unbelievable sadness. You're missing out and you're not being there for them and you know they need you. And it's the, it's the worst. It's the worst thing. But it also, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, unbelievable. inspiring and again like when I talk about my teachers in Russian when I go back to that it's why you put everything into it it's like if you're gonna do it you better do it like it's

not about having like a you know a gay old time and and and and and and and and and and kind of partying and then sort of turning up and doing your thing no man it's it's like you got to be full out and I think that's a reason why you know I really really respond to to to guys like Shia you know and and why it's not even guys like because I don't I really honestly don't think there's anyone else like him. And yeah, I love him, man. I love him. And, you know, we just did another thing together.

He called me up and said, hey, man, you know, can you help me out and come do this movie, you know, for a couple days? Like, I didn't even need to look at it yet. Dude, I'm there, man. Anything, anything you need. And, you know, true artists that this thing is vital for, that's what I respond to. So it doesn't surprise me that, like, you know, if you were going to do a clinical comic book character, there are a few on the list that I would expect you to do other than like Frank Castle and that like you know he's he's not you know there's not spandex involved

this is this is a guy that's like there's PTSD there's trauma there's there's a lot there for you to chew on as a kind of a flesh and blood character um were you wary at all because I know like you you've talked about how like you know superheroes weren't necessarily your thing you weren't envisioning yourself like in a costume or anything like that did you have to be convinced when this came around or this feel like you like a good fit for your sensibilities? Um, you both, man, both, you know? I mean, there's no question that was never something, you know,

the superhero thing was never something I aspired towards or sought after. Uh, and to take a step further, I think like the, the people that I've worked with that I really, really respect have all kind of steered clear of it. Right. And, um, and, and that means something to me. It really does. And, uh, you know, I've gotten to really get to know some, some real heroes of mine, you know, both older than me and even my

age, you know, close to my age, and that was a big, that was sort of a coda for them, you know, like, stick away from that crap. You know. You see someone like, I mean, I know you worked with DiCaprio. DiCaprio is like consciously, he's never done a franchise, even let alone like a superhero. Absolutely. And like a handle. I mean, he's working with the best in the business.

Absolutely. And he's fierce. He's fierce and I love them. You know what I mean? I have like undying respect for that guy, you know? And as a human being and as an artist, you know, and so there was that, Um, you know, when this thing came about, I didn't know much about him. And the people that I was with at the time, you know, it was funny. It was, uh, Tom Holland and my friend Stanley Weber. And, uh, I was doing a movie over in Ireland. There's a couple of Irish actors over there, too. And they all were like, dude, you know, this is, this is, this is this is, this is this guy is like pretty serious, man. This guy's pretty serious. And I started to get to know kind of like what he was about. And, um, and I, yeah, I was a bit trepidacious about it. And I. And I, yeah, I was a bit trepidious about it. And, and I. And I was a bit trepidious about it. And I. And, But then, you know, a couple of things happened. Number one, I saw what Charlie Cox was doing on Daredevil.

I turned on the series and, you know, he has a monologue in one of the first episodes and they just stay with him, man. And he just, like, lives it. And he's such a talented, you know, extraordinary actor. And there's so much pain there and there's so much, you know, I just love the elegance in which they shot this monologue, this confessional scene that he did. It was beautiful. And again, it was patient, you know, and I was like, oh, that's great.

And then I saw DeNafrio and I was like, oh, my God. I was like, okay, you know, here's a guy who's getting to throw down and be, you know, unbelievably vicious and horrifying. But like they're giving him also a chance to be vulnerable and well-rounded. And they're showing his backstory. And like, you know, that really excited me. So, you know, but I think more than anything else, man, and I've said before, you know, you know, I love my wife and my kids with like every fiber of my body, you know, they're like everything. They're, they're on my mind and in my heart literally every second.

So I think until you understand, you know, what love is, you know, to love something so much more than yourself and to completely willingly give your life for somebody, you know, you can't begin to know, you can't begin to know, you can't. begin to sort of imagine what it would be like if they were taken from you. And that scared me. It started to fill me and started with all those kinds of things that, you know, anger and sadness and shame and insanity. And it starts spiraling me and like scared me. And like that means like run towards it, man. Like go to that. And so, so yeah, man, I think so that I think that's, it was a whole combination of things. Does the experience, I mean, the only analogous thing I think of in terms of, like, fandom is obviously Walking Dead, which was a huge point in your career, I would imagine, too. Does that help kind of like, you know, there's the job part of it and then there's kind of the outside stuff that you're kind of like doing with now in terms of talking about it and getting ready for the fan reception and all that and the conventions and the comic cons and all of that. Did the, I mean, the Walking Dead was such a unique experience and continues to be for the people that are involved and you're always going to be involved in some degree with it. Does that help you kind of like navigate the weird, the weirdness. around a character like The Punisher, that's not just like, you know, Joe Schmo. It's Frank

Castle, who means an awful lot to a lot of people. Yeah, I mean, I think that part is different. I think, I think, you know, with Punisher, he's, you know, I mean, Shane Wall, she's a, is a bit of a, you know, iconic character in a comic, but it's, you know, he's not Frank Castle. Right. He's not, you know, and I think with Frank Castle, there's this, you know, there's a few things. One, I'm coming onto a show that's already completely working and successful. And And I've never done that before. You know, Walking Dead, I was, you know, one of the originals. That had the most humble beginnings.

We had no idea. Right. We could have been like the laughing stock. And, you know, I can definitely talk about Walking Dead. I think for this, it was like coming on to something that was clearly working. But I think more than anything, it's this character that has, you know, really means a lot to the fans. And people have, like, real issues with the way he's portrayed. And it's a character, again, I've said before that.

has real resonance with law enforcement with military and um that shit is super important to me man like super important to me and and you know um i didn't i i i didn't have such a understanding of it as as i do now but the the fact that people wear that skull in their body armor and people have died fighting for this country and for some reason that skull you know that has emboldened them to go and and and and and fight in the name of america you know like that is huge and And so I felt... Do I see a skull on one of your rings there? You know, my mom got me this.

It's a Memento Mori ring, you know, which I, you know, it's, you know, and what that means, really, is just remember that you're going to die, so live fully. And, and, you know, my mom is the only person in the world who could have gotten me this ring, and I would have worn it because it's a little cheesy to wear it. But I think it's a, it's a beautiful ring. And I wear it for that reason to remind me of that, you know? But yeah, it's a, there's a ton of pressure with that. I mean, with Walking Dead, man, you know, Walking Dead was just sort of this perfect storm, you know?

It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, I, I absolutely fell in love with when, when, like, things like that were really kind of far away. Right. And, and, and, and, uh, the reality of actually, like, getting on that show was really tough. And I had to really fight and really go for it, you know, and, um, I pushed everything aside to, to, to try to be on that show. And then, you know, once I was cast on that show, you know, meeting Frank Darabon, really learning who he was and what, you know, the, the wealth of, you know, he's like truly one of the great American artists, you know, and filmmakers and, uh, there's a real consistency it's kind of the, it seems like the filmmakers that are either gravitating towards you

or you're gravitating towards. I mean, whether it's the ones you're about to work with and, you know, Damien, I would put in that in that category. Steve McQueen, I think you work with. Overstone. We haven't even talked about Scorsese, Darabond. These are all like, they're just serious people. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, and sure, you like to think that every director, every person in this business is, but they're degrees.

And all of these people you're talking about are like at the extreme end. Yeah, I think so, man. And all of those guys that you mentioned are all people that have sort of proven it and have nothing, like, you know, are just, you know, the top of the mountain. And, you know, what's cool is I've also gotten to work with people like Denis Villeneuve and this guy Jamie Dag who did Sweet Virginia and Alfonso Gomez,

these guys who are who I think Yeah, and they're gonna be they're on their way but they're like still hungry and like and and you know and the thing that I feel like is uniform among all these great directors

that I've been so unbelievably blessed to work with is you know with the great ones it's always open it's always collaborative everybody has different styles but it's always you get there and there's this feeling of best idea wins

and all the bullshit it just goes out the window and I always know when I'm on a set of mediocrity because it's always like yeah could you just do it like everyone has like an agenda and everyone you know and it's so sad because

I don't want to be it's hard because sometimes it might be arrogant or it might be like but it sucks because I've had these experiences and even if I'm just there for a day if Martin says that's willing to talk it through you should be willing to talk it through but he's like who's got the ideas today like

where do we got what do we got and there's this there's this feeling that literally anything can go down at any time and if you have that you are you've got something super special man like everyone's energized everyone's looking for it it's magic you know but the second it's like oh i want you it's like dude you're you're you're limited you're closed down and you're mediocre it's like you can't not be if if you're not willing to engage and and uh it's uh yeah it's it's it's it's it's it's That is a real challenge, man. It's a real challenge. You mentioned Walking Dead.

I'm always curious because I'm a big Darabond fan myself. And that's a notorious, like, he had an ugly breakup with AMC. And you were kind of in the middle of that. I was very much so. And you worked with him again, I know. So clearly you have a fondness and allegiance to him. Was that kind of tough to kind of see him go through that and weather that storm? It was awful, man.

That whole thing was awful. I mean, you know, for me, it was like this guy, it was a really crazy time in my life. Things were really changing in my life personally. I decided to sort of leave my old life behind. I'd gotten in trouble again. I decided to really dedicate myself to work into my wife. I was starting a family. My first child was born on the set of the Walking Dead.

I mean, not literally on set, but grew up in this first year. I was season two of Walking Dead. And, you know, that was this perfect combination of everyone who is a part of that. show everyone cast and crew was so humble so eager so gung ho everybody worked their freaking asses off and so believed in frank and so believed in what he was doing and so believed in each other and gave it a million freaking percent and no one had any idea it was going to be big like it was i mean a six episode pickup is not a huge vote of confidence and you know we were making a zombie show on the network of madman and breaking bad like if that thing was going to be

bad. It was going to be really freaking bad. So everyone was giving it. It's all. And we all so believed in these scripts. And, you know, to me, I looked at this guy, this guy, Frank Darabond, and I looked at the opportunity he gave me. And, you know, a role like that, a role like Shane with a real beginning, middle, and end, an unbelievable arc and, like, a role that was right sort of in my wheelhouse of being able to really throw down. And then with, like, the enormous success that this show had, I knew that no matter what else happened in my career, I got a real opportunity to do something special and to show a part of myself and to really throw down with actors. I had unbelievable amounts of respect for. And my friends on The Walking Dead

are still the closest actors. They're still my closest friends who are actors. I mean, we are in each other's families. Sarah Wayne Callies, Andrew Lincoln, Norman Redis, Jeff DeMun Stephen, Melissa I mean the whole the whole crew you know that was an unbelievable opportunity

that he gave so when he got fired it was so crazy man and so can't you know we're not privy to anything going on in it we're in Georgia making a thing and all we know

is we are getting these scripts from him that are like pieces of magic you know we would get a script and we would read it and we'd be like okay and we would know don't learn a word of it, because until it says revised by Frank Darabot, it's going to be a page one rewrite, and it's going to be a bagillion times better. It's going to be, like, all of a sudden, it's going to be, like, we literally stopped reading them until he, because we knew it was like, don't worry.

You know, I remember Andy, just said, dude, don't worry about that shit, man. It's like, wait until it's Franks, you know. And the scripts were, you know, we had all of, when we started the season, he had written all the scripts. and you know that is an unbelievable to walk in and have the scripts written he had one through eight written before we got there so we knew where we were got i mean it's it's an unbelievably you know beautiful thing to do for your cast and and he's you know the fact that like everybody who frank works with are people that he went to high school with like he keeps you know Greg melton and giji you know costumes sets uh Greg nicotero they've been friends for you know it's it's like it's like like he's this man of like loyalty and integrity so for him to get fired we were you know I was like what in the world and out of nowhere you know no talk about it no no explanation of it and it was a crazy thing and it really sort of divided the cast there were some of us that said okay like we're going to walk off and do an open letter to variety and then there was a camp of the

cast that said look we're all these people who work here in Georgia like we're if we walk off. They lose their job. We can't do that. We have a show to make it. One mindset where you kind of split? I'm like where you wanted to go? Me? No, I knew. I said, well, let's walk, dude. Like, they're doing this to Frank? That's my guy. Like, screw this. And you know, like

later on, you know, I learned as I grew and I started to work with Frank more, I knew it was more complicated than that. And who knows? You know, like, you know, I wasn't privy to what was going on. You had a particular perspective on it because, as you said, you guys were so,

leach him because he was he made the show he absolutely made the show and and and you know his take on that show you know you you read the pilot to that show you watch the pilot which he directed and and it's there's never been an episode of that show like that and and and I think that you you know for me you know like he cast everybody he put every you know you I just was really of the notion I'm an extremely loyal guy and so for me and in it and potentially in a night way. I was willing to just blow the whole operation up because I said, this guy has done more from my family than anyone else in Hollywood. And, you know, and it was a really crazy thing

to sort of see him, this guy on this mountaintop, go through, you know, that was his family, man. He really, you know, Lori Holden he'd worked with on numerous projects. Jeff DeMun, he'd worked with a numerous project. Melissa McBride, who's one of the best actors working today, period, end of story. Melissa McBride was tried out to be, I think, an extra in the mist. And he saw something in her, wrote her this, like, crazy monologue. She had gone back to being a casting director in Atlanta where she lives and was like, hey, I want you to be on this show. And I think there's going to be this whole arc for you. Like, that's some serious shit right there, man. And, like, you know i don't know man i i you know i it's it was a very very strange weird thing to go through

i want to mention before and i know you've got a bunch of other things to do today but uh i want to mention you mentioned another film that i haven't seen yet but i just watched a trailer for it looks like a a a cool piece of work sweet virginia is that man yeah yeah yeah you're psyched about that one i'm really excited but it sounds like it's gotten some really good notices yeah yeah i'm really excited about it i you know i think this guy jimmy dag is a is a serious powerhouse director And I don't know if you're familiar with Chris Abbott. Sure. You know, I just, what he does in this movie, man, it's just going to blow people away.

And it was just this perfect labor of love. And, you know, it's an elegant, you know, 70s type film where this guy, Jamie, the director, has the courage to kind of create tension through filmmaking, through the littlest things, where you'll be scared out of your mom. mind just by like seeing a pair of headlights and and he's he's really really talented and uh image in poots and uh rosemary de witt it's just it's a great cast it's a great group i'm super proud of the film yeah excellent and you were saying when you came in here you're off next to you've been doing some training you're going to be working with damien chiselle uh pretty good filmmaker right there yeah yeah he's great he's great man yeah yeah and and you know when i met him man he just uh you know it was he's another one it's like he's like 30 going on 70 like in terms of my experience

It's crazy. You're like, what the heck, dude? You know, but like there's no, you know, sometimes you get in room with someone, you're like, okay, this is some like great at tour master director. You know, like that is like out the window. Like if it's not about the project and about he's just completely real and positive and brilliant. And it just kind of like oozes out of him. And we just had this like unbelievably cogent conversation about the project. And there was no like, I'm sizing you up, your size of me up. or do you want me? Do you not? All the bullshit was just out of the winter. Like, hey, man, let's just talk. And I really, I really, really am excited to get into it with it. It's a good ensemble of Actors Point of the Astronauts on that, right? Jason Clark, who I'm like the biggest fan of. Corey Stoll, right?

Corey Stoll, yeah. Kyle Chandler, who I'm just like an enormous fan. I mean, yeah, it's great, man, it's great. Well, as you can tell, I'm a great admirer of your work, man. When you pop up in a film, I know it's going to have some great quality to it. And certainly, with respect to television as well, Walking Dead and now The Punisher. Congratulations, man.

I've seen the first five or six. I think they're 13. Okay. So I'm excited to dig into the rest. And I know millions will be watching when it pops up on Netflix. No pressure. Yeah, right on. Thanks, bro.

I appreciate it. All on you. Good to see you, man. I appreciate you, bro. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. Goodbye, summer movies, Hello, Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast,

the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio, leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar.

In The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Ares looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat too, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.