Happy Sad Confused - Jon M. Chu

Episode Date: June 6, 2016

Filmmaker Jon M. Chu joins Josh this week to discuss his latest film Now You See Me 2, what he learned from Jem and the Holograms, and much more. This episode is sponsored by Audible.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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or go to explorevolvo.com. Don't miss Swiped, a new movie inspired by the provocative real-life story of the visionary founder of online dating platform Bumble. Played by Lily James, Swiped introduces recent college grad Whitney Wolfe as she uses grit and ingenuity to break into the male-dominated tech industry to become the youngest female self-made billionaire. An official selection of the Toronto International Film Festival, the Hulu original film Swiped, is now streaming only on Disney Plus. Hey guys, and welcome to happy, sad, confused. I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to my podcast. Welcome to The Only Show hosted by Little Old Me, where I talked to big time celebrities,

introduced by me and Sammy, Sammy Hiller. Hi, Sammy. I thought you're going to say, the only show hosted by Little Old Men. I'm turning into one, so. I was like, that was weird. Well, art of the introduction. I haven't quite mastered yet. This week on the show is a really cool interview with a smart guy, someone that I've interviewed a bunch over the years, with a really fun new movie.

Now You See Me Too. And I'll be honest. I'm as frankly surprised that I liked Now You See Me Too as much as anyone, because it's not necessarily, the first film was okay, it was fine. And I went to the second one. I'm like, okay, is this going to be great? Is this really a franchise? this is the kind of like the magic caper movie with this like insane cast i had a blast watching nice of me too it's a really fun movie um with a great cast um most of the folks in

the first one are back um mark ruffalo jesse isenberg woody harrelson woody harrison plays uh his own twin brother it's so weird i love that but great um and dania radcliffe's in it this time good old bud dan rad and uh anyway the guest this week is back in the magic game oh sorry Calm down. You had an epiphany. The film is directed by our guest this week, John Chu. John Chu is someone who, he's kind of rise in his like filmography as kind of coincided with my run at MTV in that in the last like seven, eight years. He's been very, very prolific.

He hit the scene with two of the step up movies, step up two and step up 3D. And they were films that did very well and people liked. And then he went on to do things like the G.I. Joe C. And he did two Justin Bieber docs, which were obviously very successful. And, you know, I see never is great. It made me actually kind of enjoy Justin Bieber for 90 minutes. That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's like a group, the perfect, the dream in terms of those movies.

It's like you want something like that, I think. Yeah, yeah. And John is is definitely like a go getter and somebody that's always in the mix for high profile, big projects. And, uh, this was a very candid conversation about the challenges. he's faced and he certainly faced a bunch. His last movie was Gem and the Holograms, which he's, you know, candid about and it wasn't well received. It made not nearly enough money for the studio or for him. And, you know, it's not all smooth sailing for any filmmaker. So this is a good

snapshot, snapshot at a filmmaker in progress, a filmmaker finding his way. And, and hopefully now you see me too will do well for him because, as I said, I do recommend it. It's kind of like in that Ocean's 11 kind of vibe. Yeah, like the whole, you know, big team of... Sammy, move your mic close. What do you do? You're denying people. You're a wonderful voice.

I'll tell you exactly what's happening, Josh. Yeah. I was listening and I feel like sometimes I have a booming voice. Right. So you're trying to compensate. Yeah. I just, I don't want to... I don't want to really get...

Is this too close? Yeah, never mind. Never mind. Yeah, you're fine. You're fine. Don't worry. People can handle that voice. Fuck.

Now I'm upset. I don't know what to do. I'm going to go stand in the corner like the blare. Like the Blair Witch. You're fine. You're fine. Yeah, I have nothing to say by Blair Witch. I was going to say something.

But, okay, so John Chu is the guest this week. Also, I should say, out in theaters are our guests from previous week. The Lonely Island have their film Pop Star. That's out. Never stop. Never stopping. Which I really recommend very, very highly. We were just talking about it before the podcast.

I was thinking about it this morning. I was laughing. I was listening to an interview with them on another podcast, fresh air with Terry Gross. wonderful and listening to some of their songs. And I think it's a movie that's really going to hold up. So if you haven't caught it, check out Pop Star. And also, you can check out. If you want a good cry, go check out me before you. Did you cry? You know what? I didn't cry. I'll be honest. It did not make me actually. But I'm, I cried. I generally cry like one or two movies a year. What's the last movie you cried at?

I don't know. One movie that always makes you cry. Well, there are a few. a lot of the cliches like field of dreams you know what movies would kind of make me cry or like the sacrifice self-sacrifice ironic because I obviously don't have that bone in my body yeah but it's like it's like it's like war films like a saving private Ryan or a glory or something like that or someone's a get in

no no I would not put that in the same class self-sacrifice the ultimate sure sure a wonderful film at its own right but not in the necessarily one that makes me cry. I'm not like Sophie's Choice. I don't think Sophie's choice made me cry. Terms of endearment. All right.

Okay. So you're alive. Yeah. What makes you cry? What's the last movie that made you cry? I'm an emotional movie watcher. Shocking. I laugh.

I cry. Sometimes I sleep. You're like going Cape Fear route. Robert De Niro, the big laugher in Cape Fear. I get compared to Robert De Niro all the time. He's the hearty laugher and Kate Fear. fear. The one thing I want to mention before we get to the podcast this week is we were talking before. I just came back from a little vacation. And I had a very exciting visit. This is my Bureau

of Tourism Moment for Ireland. I went to Skellig Michael, which if you've seen Star Wars the Force Awakens, and if you're listening to this podcast, you have, and you've probably seen it three or four times, is where the end of the Force Awakens happens when Ray finds Luke. And, and it's this very remote beautiful part of the world that's um it's it's an hour a long boat ride over very choppy waters and it's um it's like this enclave of like of where like monks settled like thousands of years ago years ago and has been preserved uh as best as it can be there's no commercialism there it's like it's a rough trip and there's there's no bathroom there's no anything on the island. I thought I was going to die several times. I had a panic attack the night

before we went. And I almost didn't go. I can't believe you did it. I really cannot believe you did. The only reason I did, I think, is because my wife was really getting angry at me because she kind of had built out our vacation around this. Like, this was the centerpiece. Right. And you were like, oh, I don't want to. I didn't exactly that voice, but more of like, I don't know if I want to. Can I tell you how I picture this whole thing? I picture everybody in like very sort of, uh sporty rustic clothing like climbing this mountain and i picture you in converses a button down and like a nice pair of khakis i was wearing my usual wardrobe sparkling water and the skellig we did like pack up like enough food to survive for like a week is there hummus always hummus on me

at all times yeah no i was wearing jeans and sneakers thank you very much combers uh no jack purcells i don't know what the brand was Like a sneaker? Like a real sneaker? My running shoes. My running shoes. Got it. When I run away from people like you.

Right. Anyway, it was a beautiful experience. I'm so happy I did it because I am not the adventurous sort generally. I fear all things, including any sharp objects. Did you do it again? What? I did it. I mean, I don't.

No. No, no, no. Not out of fear or anything. But like, there are other. It's like, all right. I know. I have other hills to climb. Got it.

Metaphoric and literal. Got it. You're right. All right. Anyway, I just wanted to gloat and said I actually did something semi-adventurous for once. And it was a blast. So there you go. Anything else to say, Sammy?

No, I'm really, I'm happy you made it back. Me too, me too. All right, guys, I'm back. And here is this conversation with a delightful director, a very intelligent dude by the name of John Chu. I hope you guys enjoy it and go check out. Now you see me, too, when it opens this Friday. I will. I wasn't talking literally to you, Sam.

Great. I'm glad I'm that influential. You're so suggestible. I'm going to do it now. Go soon. I got to go right now. Very excited to be joined by John Shue. What's going on?

It's good to see you. Yeah, yeah. I'm really happy for you in this one. This is a great, a really fun movie. Oh, thank you. Yeah. It was intimidating at first. to jump in for a sequel of a movie that I'm a big fan of, but also with this cast.

But everyone's been so cool and chill, and we had a blast. The fun of the movie I've ever made. Well, you've got like every personality type in the past. So if you're ever bored, you can look to your left or look to your right and you're going to see Woody Harrelson or Michael Caden and Morgan Freeman, and the list goes on and on. And every time you combine them in different combinations, the energy changes, the jokes change, the rhythm changes. For any director, I recommend working with this cast once in your life. Keeps you on your toes. It keeps you on your toes. You learn so much. You watch

like master craftsmen do their thing. And then you've got to hang and you've got to find your place in that. So it's been fun. Well, since we have some time, I definitely want to talk, obviously, about this one, but also about sort of the arc of your career. Because, I mean, I've talked to you a few times over the years at MTV and gone to see, kind of your career is kind of coincided with my run in MTV. And to get a chance to sort of see, I mean, you've been very prolific. You've been, you've done what? I think seven or eight films. Seven movies in eight years now.

Yeah. That's a lot. And it's an eclectic resume, to say the least. A couple documentaries in there. The more random the movie, the better. They come to you? Something random. Go to John.

Yes. I mean, do you see a through line in the kind of stuff that you're attracted to or is it a little bit random? Yeah. No, I definitely, to me, I love great stories. I love things that have a little bit of weird something in it, whether it be dance or pop music or action or in this case magic. Like I love having a different language other than just dialogue.

I love that idea and that these forms can communicate a character or character evolution of some sort within them. And now you see me too. The magic is sort of similar to where I'm in a musical where music would be and taking a character from one place to another. I mean, do the first steps in approaching a project vary, or is kind of like it always the first, always a basic couple questions you ask yourself whenever you take on a new project? Well, what I figure, like, do I want to see this movie? Like, does it excite me? And even if it's

a movie that excites me, it's not necessarily something I would take. It's if it, like, challenges me in some way. Does it scare me in some way? And if someone says, oh, you shouldn't do this movie, more than likely I'm going to go do that movie at that point. I just love the, I love the challenge. I feel like I'm a storyteller and whether it's a Virgin America safety video or a commercial or a campfire story or a movie. To me, that's my job. And I love taking that challenge on it. And no matter what genre, no matter what thing, the more it scares me, I'm down to do. So wait, have you done a Virgin America safety video? I did do the The big singing and dancing one that's on that's been playing for a couple of years.

Nice. Yeah. And you're able to like take pride in that because it's its own form and you want to kind of like nail that in its own way. And people are forced to watch it by law. Like any time anyone who you must watch it, I'm down to do. And I get emails almost every couple days from different friends and different people who see it. It's the gift that keeps on getting. It's the filmmaker's dream.

Yes. Whether they hate me or love me for it. It doesn't matter. I definitely get a message about it. So it could be a sense. Growing up, were you, I mean, you can tell from my office, I grew up being a film nerd, were you totally just into film from the start? Yeah, I actually was really into animation.

I drew a lot. I wanted to be a Disney animator. It was like that sort of golden age of Little Mermaid and Aladdin and all those things. But I also loved musicals. I loved Michael Jackson. I was obsessed. So it was like Michael Jackson, Walt Disney, Spielberg, and, like, Copperfield. Those four to me were like, my, that's what I wanted.

Those are my storytellers of my childhood. And you've met at least a couple of those, I would think, by now. I mean, speaking about this film, is it Copperfield involved in anywhere? Yeah, he was there in the sort of the writing phase and helped sort of guide that aspect to it. And we were just in Vegas with him, which was really fun. And got to see. I actually never saw his show live until cinema con. So it was cool to be there and actually tell him these things.

Even on the phone we were talking about, it was mostly on the phone. and he was working a lot with our writer, Ed. It was, I hadn't really said all those things, like, on a personal level, but seeing the show sort of brings it out. And it shows you that his magic is very specific. It's very story-driven. All his stuff is very much in that Amblin sort of world. And it's really fun to see it in person.

What about Spielberg? What was the first time you interacted with him? He is the one who found me in film school. Right. That's what I read. He saw my shorts. I got a phone call, literally. it was the same week in Dawson's Creek of the finale

where Dawson gets the call from Steven Spielberg literally I had just gotten the call and I was like this is so bizarre because I had that conversation and so he wanted to meet he saw him I'm short and at this time there was no YouTube there was no way to show it online like nobody had a copy it was just on like DVDs that were sort of sent out

through different agencies and stuff and at that point we hadn't been sending it out we'd just been screening it at different studios to try to build a little bit of hype. Sure. And somehow he got a copy. And I have like five different people who claim they're the ones who gave it to see. Everybody wants credit.

Yeah. But in a weird way, he, so we met up, we talked for hours. He invited me to his set. I pitched him a project the following week with my best friend. It was with him, Mike DeLuca, who was present at the time. Adam Goodman was there. Sure. And a bunch of other people.

And it was my first pitch ever. And me and my best friend had like, in his now wife, we had this chest full of like costumes and things. And we're pitching it, putting on wigs and putting on costumes. And I mean, looking back, I can't believe they just didn't laugh us out of the room. But they bought it. It was like Moulin Rouge or just like running around doing all this like crazy thing. And they bought the project.

And just by him, we never made it. But also, just him sort of reaching out made the whole industry pay attention, at least internally. And that made all the difference. I mean, that's got to be top five moments in anyone's life. I mean, that changes someone's life. That is, as you say, that's kind of like the cliche come to life. Yes. It's kind of weird to talk about it, too, because you think about the story, like, oh, one day he's going to see it.

But that never really happens. And this was he just a little touch. And people pay attention. I was 22 years old and got attached to like bye-bye birdie at Sony. Right. Push them all to do these things. And it's just because of his sort of that helps your momentum for sure. Yeah.

I mean, did he say what he responded to in the short? What kind of like, what was the nature of the short that you did? Yeah, it was a musical about mothers, the secret life of mothers. It's actually not online or anywhere. I think there's a trailer online, but you can't see it anywhere. And it's a 17-minute short film. And they sing and dance when everyone's gone for the day. and this is a sort of secret mother society.

And he, I don't know what he responded. He definitely said his wife really responded to it. And she's like, this is, you know, he understands us or something like that. And he's a huge musical fan. He's only wanted to do musicals. And so we, we, I remember us talking for hours about just musicals. And I think Oliver is his favorite, Oliver Twist. And so like, we started, he asked like, what's that song?

And I started like saying, like, um, singing it out loud and then he started singing it and so we were singing the song together and then I stopped and he just did the whole the rest of the song like all the way through like I sat there for about two minutes

it was pretty crazy it is kind of shock because yeah I mean I'm tracking through my memory of his filmography he's never done a full on musical no he did like I think the opening was a raider well Temple of Doom has that huge great set piece yes exactly and so that's he was talking about like, I got to do that, but not full on.

Which I would argue, honestly, I always cite that as one of my favorite opening sequences in any film. It's amazing. It's really fun. So what was, what kind of family did you grow up in? Was your family steeped in the arts, or was it encouraging in terms of that kind of stuff? Yeah, I grew up in Palo Alto next to Stanford, and my parents have a restaurant, Chinese restaurant. It's been there for 46 years now.

And they never let us work at the restaurant. They always said, America's the greatest place. They came when they were like 19, 20, 20 years. years old, not speaking a word of English. They said, if you work hard and love what you do, that's all that counts. And so they didn't want us to get used to tips and fast cash. So they said, this will always be here for you. And ultimately, I dream is for you to have our restaurant. But in the meantime, do everything we couldn't do. So every weekend, they'd send us to, we go to the city, go see the ballet or opera season or dance shows or ballet season. And we took

drum, I took drums, sax, violin, guitar, piano. I was in tap classes. Not good at any of these, by the way. I was not, but it influenced me. And all my friends were in these worlds. And I was always drawing, so I always want to be an animator. And then one day we were on vacation and they had this giant camera, like one of those like VHSC camera, which goes on your shoulders. And then, and I started shooting stuff for my family. And I got this little editor from Sharper Image. It was like a $200, like, Seema mixer. You could put in your stereo and stuff, VHS to VHS. And I was probably like 10, 11 years old, cut this thing together and showed them and they

started crying when they watched it. And I was like, this is what I want to do. Just to kind of bring that emotion to your family. That's a huge boon to your ego, right? And it gave me like a voice. Like I was, youngest to five, you sort of get drowned out. You just sort of listen to people talk most of the time. And you're the last one to grab food and all this stuff.

And so it gave me a voice. It gave me something like I could not necessarily hide behind, but I could like use as sort of a bridge to get my voice out. And that was really powerful for me. You alluded to this a little bit in some of your influences, but what were the films you knew by heart as a kid? What were the ones that you kind of wore out the VHS? As a kid, oh, I mean, back to the future, for sure. We watched WWF all the time. So that was a big, no matter how much.

And we played toys all the time. Right. But those, I would say E.T. for sure. Batman was like huge for me at the time. Like that made me want to make franchise films too. Like that was that whole the Prince song, the whole Jack Nicholson stuff. Like we watched, we definitely broke that tape. I remember that, I mean, Leah, I mean, I think I'm a couple years older than you, but like even then I grew up here in the city. But like when that film came out, I mean, we're kind of used to like these tent poles now kind of like taking over like getting in the zeitgeist. Like that was one of the first ones I remember. where it was like it was a whole new thing and it changed the paradigm of what like those movies

could be yeah it's hard to remember exactly how it fit and everybody being such a huge event and all music toys tv and and and movie that it was like this giant machine and you could not not see it exactly so or even like going to see the like during little mermaid and when i went to see lion king i'd go i'd go opening weekend for all these things and i remember seeing Lion King like three times opening weekend at this theater and people were cheering when Mufasa came on and booing when Scar would come on

and I just remember thinking this is on like no other form art form in the world allows this kind of interaction and and so all those things really got me excited. I mean do you think that that is almost a part of why you're attracted to some of the things that you've done in that a lot of your films

kind of provoke that kind of like extreme frank emotion. It's the step up films. These are films you kind of like want to get up and dance or Bieber, docs, et cetera. I mean, that can leave a crowd crying, you know, the effect he has on people. Because, I mean, that's clearly what film did to you and what you did to your family through film. Yeah.

I guess it's about emotion at the end of the day, right? Yeah, and I never fully, like, unpacked that idea, but I definitely love the community aspect to it. I love, even when Michael Jackson would premiere his videos after The Simpsons on Sunday night and you're waiting for Remember the Time or Black and White and you're crowded around the TV set like that community,

that idea that we could share this dream together on a big screen on a small screen always got me excited and made me like and any sort of fad I was into whether it's Pogs or Tomogacchi

or like collecting I collected basketball cards baseball cards like I love that sort of pop idea that everyone joins in some sort of motion together. So, yeah, I guess in my movies, I'm always attracted to that idea of an event. And was USC the right fit for you? Did that feel like learning the craft of it? Is it a

competitive atmosphere? It gave me a sense of where your head was at. Clearly, it gave you the tools to create these shorts that obviously, you know, let you get your name out there. But did it feel like a nurturing kind of atmosphere for you? Yeah. I mean, I went to a school, a small school that all my brothers and sisters had gone to from kindergarten through high school. So they all would mistake my name for my older brother's name. And so, but it was a very nurturing environment there. And I, so as soon as I knew I wanted to be a filmmaker, it was like third or fourth grade.

There's only one. There's USC. And all my brothers and sisters went to UCLA. And so there was a little bit of pull to go to UCLA as well. But I only applied to film schools. And in the end of the day, it was a perfect, because it's in a big city, in the city. I had gotten in freshman years.

So I didn't have to, at UCLA, you have to wait until you're a sophomore to apply. So I chose USC. And even though it's in a big city, it has a lot of kids, it feels, the campus is like its own thing. So it really helps

feel like it was just one step up from my little high school in Palo Alto. And film school is not for everyone. Like, it depends on what kind of movies you want to make, what kind of person you are. For me, it was the perfect fit because it wasn't even really about the craft

of making movies. Yes, there was education about the history, which was really helpful for me, but it's really about the community that you're being placed into, where these other students who love movies more than you do, who've seen more movies than you have, you're not the only one now, and you're amongst this group of people that love it just as much as you do and more. And then you can help each other, help them on their projects, they can help you on your projects, and everyone's there to make things.

And that environment allowed me to make stuff that was in my head, make a lot of mistakes and also make some things that actually helped me. And without that community, if I was out and about, you'd have to pay these people and we wouldn't have that resource. And these people are people I still make movies with. And so that environment, I think, was really crucial. I could not have gotten into the business. I didn't know anybody to be able to do that. I knew nobody in L.A. Right.

And you found an immediate community that you could draw upon and feed your creative soul and literally just do the job around you. Absolutely. And USC always says, like, we're not a craft school. Like, if you want to learn how to edit, you can go to a lot of different schools. You can learn on yourself, really. You could be on set. But they're about appreciation of the art form, understanding grammar, audio visual, storytelling grammar. Yeah.

You can write, anyone can write a sentence. You can learn to write a sentence. But how do you make a paragraph and actually draw the, draw the audience in and know what rules there are so you can break them or not. Hey, guys, do you love books but find that you never actually have the time to read them? Well, Audible.com has the perfect solution. Get audiobooks and listen to those books you've been meeting to read while on the go. At the gym, during your commute, Audible.com provides over 250,000 titles from the leading

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you can actually exchange any book you aren't happy with for another title anytime no questions asked. And just for listeners of HappySaid Confused, Audible.com is offering a free 30-day trial membership. So go to Audible.com slash happy-sad right now to start your free trial today. Again, show your support for Happy, Sad Confused, and get a free 30-day trial at Audible.com slash happy-sad. Is a lot of that at this point to use second nature, like when you look at a script, you kind of like, okay, I can see how to translate this into an image, into a moment right now? Or is it still applying something? No, I'm definitely like, I can read something and it takes me forever to read because I see

every moment of it. As soon as I read something, I can tell you exactly the color of the shirt, the seat they're sitting on. However, I think that's really dangerous. I think because your instinct sometimes comes from a very shallow place, maybe. Something's like right on the tip of your brain. And whereas that can help maybe in the moment when you're shooting and you're actors and you don't ever want to put an edit system in your head like that,

I think when you're first starting, you first read a script, I think it's really dangerous to go to your default. I think you've got to go like five layers down first. So I'll write down my first. instinct when I read a script or when I read a new idea. And then, because I think that's really important because that's the only time you're going to experience the movie fresh. So you know when I finish editing in all my whole movie, I go back to those first set of notes.

And did I adjust this? Did I fix that? Did I feel this? And where are the mistakes that the new eyes that are going to see this are going to feel that I felt? But I also try to put that to the side when I first read a script to then say, okay, let's go dig deeper. Let's go another layer. And every time you bring on a new crew member or new cast member, especially, you're digging deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper. So it's kind of a tricky thing. You want to

trust your first instincts, but I think it can, and the more movies I do, the more dangerous it feels like it gets, because then you start to repeat yourself. And you start to, those places that we're subconscious are now ingrained, and I think that's scary. What about, I mean, just backtracking a little bit. I'm curious, like, I mean, the, frankly, the dearth of Asian American filmmakers when you're a kid. Is that something that even occurs to you? Like, there aren't people, quote, unquote, like me that are doing this. Yeah. Do, am I going to, where do I fit into the system? Is that something that occurs to you at the time? Or in retrospect, is it just sort of you're so in it? You don't think about that kind of stuff. Yeah, I definitely didn't recognize

at the time. I mean, definitely as a kid. Uh, not, not. Hopefully you're not. Hopefully you wouldn't Yeah, I wasn't like, oh my gosh, why isn't there an Asian Steven Spielberg or something like that? When I was young, I didn't have those thoughts. And even when I was making my movies in school or things like that, I think it was different because we had a lot of Asian kids in our program, but they were from China or from Taiwan or from Hong Kong coming into the program. So I felt very different than those. I was an all-American kid, really. So I saw myself of that, so I never really, it's not until later in life as I sort of look back and realize like those roads were paved by other people.

The reason I don't feel those things is because people stuck their neck out, took risks, paved that way for myself. And so the more important it is as I grow to know that I need to help continue to open those doors or pave new paths for more voices. I think it's a, it's also, it's not just about Asian. I think it's just like more voices in audiovisual storytelling is good for everybody, especially when we're stuck in sort of superhero land, which I love. But at the same time, like, the film art needs all the voices that it can get. It's interesting. I feel like we're in that phase, like, I'm curious to see, like, looking back, like,

when we're older, gentle and 30 years from now, like, sort of at this period, because it feels like we're at the phase where we're all talking about it at least. Like, we're in a really good space where everybody, like, this comes up a lot, whether it's, yes, involving different voices in whatever, whatever ethnicity, gender, et cetera. And it'll just be interesting to see, like, how quickly the shift happens. It feels like this generation is hopefully not as dyed in the wool as the previous one. Yeah, totally. When I see something like Masters of None, I'm like, it's a subtle shift, but, like, that's a huge shift, actually, when you look at it. And the fact that people are responding, and I can feel it in meetings that I go to now even, even in the last year with the Oscar So White stuff, the white washed out stuff, it, you go into a business meeting now, a script meeting, it comes up.

And I guess it's more like what I try to do in those meetings now is not do it as a token, not do it because those things, the easy way is still like they try to pull that court all the time. I'm like, oh, you just add the friend, add the friend, add the friend. You're like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, you can do that. Yeah. And, you know, maybe people will fall for that. But, like, real characters, just build the character around this idea. Yeah.

And as more executives, there's more diverse executive people than you can have those people to turn to. Yeah. So the pressure that people put on is not just people complaining, although it's sometimes really annoying on my Facebook feed. That annoying is okay. I think it's important, and I think especially Asians who have not spoken out as a community as a whole, I think it really helps put the pressure on and it does literally make a difference. Did you have much perspective or response in the two recent examples, right, were the Scarlet-Johansson thing and Ghost in the Shell, Tilda Swinton and Dr. Strange,

did that rub you the wrong way? Did you feel like those are just isolated examples and let's not make too much of it, or did it feel like that's endemic of the system? I think it's a tricky one. I definitely feel certain roles that are meant for Asian actors. It's so, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to see when you can tell an executive shifting that for a specific reason, which are simply outdated reasons. But I also, on a filmmaker side, hate the idea of people telling a filmmaker and artist how to do their job. Right.

So I think the awareness, bringing it up, making it an issue, I think is important. I think the tricky line is saying, you filmmaker, are doing the wrong type of art by doing that. Like, to me, I'm like, art is art. You create, like, every storyteller has their own way of doing whatever. It's good to make them aware of maybe it's something deeply ingrained, but it's hard to say that that filmmaker is racist. I think that's a strong word, and I think that it's, and I'm against telling artists how to do their art. Because you've been in the position, you know what it entails, yeah, it's a little complicated. And it's not always, no pun intended, black or white.

Like, there's, like, when you have, like, something for us, it was like, gem in the holograms. And I, to me, as an artist growing up, I hate it. the token Asian character, and her name is Asia, Aja, but Asia, really. And I hated, it felt being talked down to me. And so when I make adjustments in Jam, and we had a more mixed, both of them, both Aja and Shana, I got, and one, it was never actually, I never consciously said, we're going to make this person mixed or anything. It was literally the best people for the job in the girls' chemistry.

So I get when people are like, oh, my gosh, our only black gem and a hologram is now half and half. Like, yeah, you can say it. You have every right to say that. That's we put ourselves out there to say that. But to say that I purposely did that to whitewash something. It's kind of ridiculous to me. And to attack me of doing that.

One, my perspective is like America has many different things, and we found the people that fit the role the best. And so that, and two, it's a cartoon as well, so it's a little bit different. But either way, so I feel both sides. And I know where it can be tricky and all those things. But I also look at someone like Aurora, who's super, who plays Shana in Arts, and she's super talented. And the amount of time she gets told, she's not black enough, and the amount of times she gets told you're not white enough. So then what role is that for her?

And the amount of friends that I have who are mixed, who have that same issue, you could make an argument for any of those sides. And so ultimately, you're like, well, where are we here? So I get all sides. I get that it's complicated. But let's just all say our piece and say, yeah, it's complicated instead of like trying to take someone down for that, I think it's just not right. You mentioned Jem, which obviously was a tough road for you guys. I mean, it didn't succeed commercially as you would probably hope it would. I'm curious, like looking back at the film so far, like do you feel like you're learning more from the successes or the maybe a mistake is too strong a word, but the ones that don't resonate in the way you want them to?

Well, I'm really proud of Gem. I would show Gem on my reel to anybody. It's not a movie for a 20-year-old man. It's not a movie for a 35-year-old mother. Although, if you like Gem, you probably could see your thing. It was also a prequel to what the Gem cartoon would become. And maybe we weren't clear on that. Maybe our marketing was off on all those things.

I wish people gave it a chance when we had released it. Clearly, when you don't make that much money on that weekend. like that low, people aren't even... Be aware, it's soft. They don't know what they're getting. They don't even know what they're getting. And they don't even know, they haven't seen it to make an opinion. Since it's been out in other ways, it's been great.

I've been getting such great feedback. I've been getting such great messages saying, hey, I was hating on it. But I just saw it and my nine-year-old is obsessed with the music and we're having a birthday party and all this stuff. Like, it's been very nice to feel that. Nice. And so did I, I don't think I, I don't have any shame in that movie in any sort of way. I would do it over again.

I am so proud of the movie. I think what I learned mostly from that experience was it tested why I make movies. It tested when it doesn't do well. You can either be crushed by that idea and reject the movie or reject this because the audience rejected. Or you realize that that's not why you're doing this. You're in the, I'm in the movie business to make movies. I'm not in the movie business to write movies or develop movies. Like, I make movies.

I tell stories. Some people will like, some people won't. Some people will be iffy on, whatever. And some people will hate it, but other people will watch it over and over for the rest of their lives. I have a lot of movies that I feel like that too. So for me, it only refocused why I make things. And for me, it's to bring a community together and to really show that we're not alone in our struggles. Like, we all feel out of place.

We all feel alone. We all feel like we're trying to find where we are in this world. And movies say, yes, everybody struggles with an idea, and it's going to be okay. Like, we all go through that. Everyone that's existed has gone through that. And so that is really powerful to me. And without something like Gem to say, listen, your movie is not a hit, that's easy to be excited, you know, to be making movies when you have movies a hit, I think it made me stronger and have more resolve to the stories that I'm telling. Well, it's good to hear you say that because I feel like the biggest danger out of something like that is like to readjust in the wrong way where you're like, okay, to chase an audience, to chase what you think they want and not trust.

As you said, I think you're finding a good balance and kind of like trusting your own instincts to a point. Yes. And then kind of realizing that, you know, dig deeper, dig deeper. Yes. Yes. But to make it too market driven, et cetera, you have to be true to yourself in the end. You have to make the movie you want to see that you believe in. And I think that fear is the worst thing for creativity.

Like when we're in notes meetings, fear is the only thing that can destroy our great idea. And I'm not immune to it. I'm actually, I have to really protect and protect myself from having fear of doing this or doing that. Especially as a director, your job is to be the one without the fear. And so when fear creeps into your brain, it's really easy to succumb to it because you have this sort of golden palace. You can sort of step away from it and not take responsibility for these things. But I never, I thought to myself, and I remember at that moment thinking, The worst thing that can happen from this experience is having fear now rule when I'm making a decision about what movie I want to do or when I'm developing a movie or getting a movie on its feet.

So I took a lot of time to make sure that that doesn't happen. Even if I'm wrong, not even wrong, even if people don't like my movies from now on until the end of time. And I totally, like, I cannot let that affect my creativity because my creativity will be dead. if it seeps in. So I made a big effort to make sure that did that do it. And I think it speaks well to you that, I mean, no matter we, you know, the movie hasn't come out yet. So hopefully it'll do great.

But like you, the bottom line is to, from my perspective, you made a really successful movie, a very entertaining movie and a very difficult movie. Yeah. It's a lot to balance. It's a lot to balance. It's a huge, I mean, as great as the benefits are of having a huge ensemble, you got to balance a huge ensemble. And it's, and it's, um, you know,

You know, you've jumped into a couple franchises midstream, and you're doing that again here. Give me a sense of sort of what going into this. Oh, A, like what the biggest appeal of something like now you see me too is, and then what the biggest challenge to your mind is, the thing to keep your eye on the ball about. Well, going into this movie, I was still in the middle of making jam. Yeah. We had just finished shooting. We had like a 22-day shoot for that movie.

And so I knew we were, we did it for little, very little money. And we knew there was a huge risk for. that. I wasn't getting paid. So it was like, all right, we're going to find another movie soon. And they came to me. And at that point, I was like, I'm not doing any sequels anymore. Don't want to be that guy. I can't still be that guy. Exactly, exactly. And I had many conversations with my team and even with Lionsgate, because Eric Feig was the president, gave me my first movie. And they were trying to get me to do a couple other movies that weren't sequels as G.I. Joe was trying to take me for G.I. Joe 3, and they were like, why are you doing another

sequel? And then all of a sudden they're like, oh, you should do this sequel. So it was a very interesting time. But I couldn't say no when you are talking about magic. I love the first movie. I'm a fan of the first movie. And the cast itself, you're like, this is a really cool opportunity. And I could see how we could flip it. I saw how the first movie was a magic trick for the audience. And in this one, we could actually be behind the curtain and be with the horseman this time, which were my favorite parts of the first movie. So I clearly saw an opportunity to do that with. And so, yeah, I jumped at the opportunity. And I know a lot of the players there, like Eric Feig and Bobby Cohen or some of the producers. I love Alex Kurtzman. And so

I wanted to work with this cast. So it sort of happened in very naturally in that way. And so I left in the middle of editing jam I did a director's cut we scored really big in that in our test for jam so I was like I got it you guys take care of the rest I'm going We knew we were coming out for a year

So I went for nine months to London And we shot this movie and it was It was a blast we had a great time Woody who returns for this And Woody Harrelson plays not one I know it was revealed I think an EW or something But he's playing two roles He's playing his own brother

Oh yeah his evil to his brother Which I didn't know which I love I mean please I mean talking back to her influences as a kid. I just think I think of Knight Rider. David Hasselhoff playing his own evil brother, Garth with a goatee, right? He gives two great performances in this. Is he doing any kind of McConaughey thing? Is the twin brother a little bit of McConaughey in there, or is that just me? I mean, you're going to have to ask him with all those questions. I honestly didn't even know what we were going to get with Chase. That's the twin brother's name when we started this.

We started to explore looks, and we started to explore the character, and he's like, I don't, I don't want to set anything for the character until I see how he looks. Right. So then we started with like perfect teeth, perfect nose, perfect full head of hair. And we did like a million different versions. And even then he was like, I don't know how to, I don't know what it's going to sound like. We're like, okay, let's, let's. And I kept thinking in my head, all right, I remember reading these articles about Johnny Depp

in Pirates of the Caribbean. Like they all freaked out, but it was genius. How am I going to know if it's genius or is. insane and ridiculous. The fine one. And so there was a certain point I was like, I can't know. I actually have to just, I'm going to trust, it's Woody Harrelson. Let's see what happens.

And so he put on the outfit the first day and this character just came out. The way he talks was challenging because it has no real speech pattern. It's like the more natural speech pattern, he goes against all those things. So like a line, a last line in a scene. like doesn't feel like the last line. It feels like it's a supposed to start a new one. And so it was very difficult for me to find, but I had promised myself,

trust it, trust it, trust it. And he was right. He created this really weird, random character. Very entertaining. He's having good time, and I think the audience will have a good time with it too. Yes. Do you, are there any, are there,

you're kind of like linked, I think, for life probably, with Justin Bieber thanks to your associate agents in directing his, two of his docs. Yeah. Are there any minuses? I feel like are our friends or nieces or nephews always hitting you up for favors or tickets or something? The amount of texts I get when he's around in town to get tickets to his show is enormous.

Do you want to say anything for the record for people that you can't hook them up? I'm sorry. Basically, yes. I could have gotten some meet and greets here and there, but he's put the kibosh on the meeting greet. So no more meeting greets. I mean, do you feel like still, do you feel like close to that, him and that situation? It's such like he's, look, he's as famous as a human being is on the planet right now. And no one can understand what he's going through.

I mean, your docs maybe helped a little bit on that. But it's never going to be easy for him. It's never easy. And I actually, I'm so proud that he has come out the other end. And there's a lot longer of a journey to go. But I feel like it's a miracle that anyone that age with those opportunities can come out of it unscathed. Like when it is a tradition to have a young pop star become a train rack for all time, it's like it's not the problem with the person. It's the problem with us and us deciding to milk that person all their whole soul until they don't know how to stand up anymore.

And I feel like when I started with him, I didn't know who he really was, got to know him, got to love him as a little brother. I never had a little brother, and I saw the family around him and the people around him, and I could see he's a really good person. And also, I was very scared of the train that was coming towards him. And no matter how much you talk about it at the time and show him the stuff of like, this is what you could become, don't do that, don't do that. He has to go through his own journey. So when he was going through all that stuff, even while we're showing Believe,

I could still see him inside there. I could still see his good heart inside all of this sort of show that he was doing and trying to find his soul. I mean, if I had a camera on me when I was 16, 17, it would be a disaster. So the fact that he took control of his life and his empire, frankly, and a year later, basically, and has gotten his life together and created amazing music. and he's always, the only reason I knew he was always going to survive this, at least artistically, was he is a musician, like he records, makes music every day of his life. He has a folder in his computer, every city he goes to, and he has like five songs in each folder.

It never ends. If you leave him in a room, he's creating music. And to me, someone who loves the craft that much and not necessarily all the other stuff is someone who loves the craft and will continue to do that, whether someone's paying him or not, whether people like him or not. So I'm just really glad that he was able to do that and make an album that people actually could cut through all the stuff and find themselves. And I think that that's a testament to his actually real talent.

And I'm sure he's going to go through more. I mean, he's growing and he's changing. But he's aware of that. And we'll see how it goes. But it's a, it's, I would love to make more movies about him as his life progresses. It could be like the seven up series. That's what I'm saying. We've talked about that a lot, actually, me meet him.

And I think he's open to the idea. Oh, you're amazing. Have you seen the last week on the podcast we had on the Lonely Island for Pop Star? Oh, nice. They were doing Junkets next to us today, and it looks hilarious. And what a honor to have them to have shots and scenes from what we have. I love that. And I love that.

I'm huge fans in there, so that's pretty cool. Did it, not to bring up, but maybe, I don't know how unpleasant subject that is to you, but like Channing had some pretty frank things to say recently about G. I did not hear this, no. So, I mean, he said basically he's, it wasn't a very positive view of the film. Yes. Okay. Does that bum you had to hear that? Do you, what's your, what's your recollection or feeling? Because again, that's a tough process. I know you guys, his star was at a weird place. They were figuring out how much they wanted him in the film or could have him in the film. Totally. Totally. Did you feel like you were in control of that one or

there was other considerations? No, I mean, I, I'm close with Channing. And so, No, I don't, to me, the first movie was hard for him, and I haven't seen what he said, so I don't, I don't exactly know. Other than, I know the first movie was very difficult for him because they basically forced him to be in that movie. Right. It was a contractual thing. And he never, no one ever thinks someone's going to sue you to not, if you don't want to be in a movie. But apparently, and this is some, I wasn't there, I don't know. Apparently, that's what he felt like was happening.

And so he came into that movie feeling like chained. And so when we were working on, he didn't have to come in for a step up too. But he came in as we just met. He was like, I'm down. I'm down to help out. I love the franchise. It's always helped me. So he came out of his goodwill to help transition step up to the step up franchise.

And so when it came down to the next GI Joe, I basically was like, hey, I want to help you get out. because he didn't want to do G.I. Joe again. It was, you know, his, that was, I wouldn't want to do that if they were forced to do something. They could have forced him in a certain point. But it's a new regime. It's myself. And we're like, no, we're not going to do that to you. But help us get us, get you out.

Yeah. And so there was never, ever a question of like, I think there was like a bunch of rumors of like, oh, they're doing reshoots to keep a minute. Like, that was not even a choice. That was, before I even got in, it was sort of like. Like, we have to get Channing out. How do we build that into this thing? So he was, we sat down. We were like, I think we did this before and step up.

He was the best. He's like the most kindest. I'm sure you know him. Sure. I love that guy so much. So I know that no matter what he says about whatever this, like he's a great guy and he never had to do any of these things for us. Right.

He could have said no to coming into GI Joe retaliation being part of that. But he was down. To be fair, it was like a Howard Stern interview, so he was probably saying shit about anything because Howard can make you say anything. It's true. But I know for a fact that it was a hard for G.I. Joe 1. G.I. Joe 2, even when he's on set,

he like was the nice as my parents loved him. He, like, on my birthday, he got the cake for me. He cut the cake. He was like, you know, he's a really good guy. I mean, at this point, you kind of alluded to this before you took on, now you see me too, and you're like, I'm not going to do another sequel. I mean, so much of your body of work has been like intellectual property, like properties

that people are well aware of. Is part of you kind of like, that's a whole other level of complexity and baggage? Like, I just want to do something that's off the radar. That's my own thing and prove myself in a totally different realm. Yeah. Is there an impetus to do that? No, totally. I feel like I'm in the beginning of my career.

And like every experience, I see filmmaking, storytelling as a long journey and as an artist, you change and you shift. And so I never feel like not anything is the end-all, be-all. Like, the more random, the movie, the more out there that you have something that you don't expect from me, the better. And I'll learn my way and figure it out. So, yeah, I just like the journey. Yeah.

What's the next one for you? Do you know what you're directing next? I don't know. I have a couple of things that I'm attached to. You know, if the audience loves, now you see me too. There's some ideas that could be great for Now You See Me Three, but we'll see. That's up to the audience. Wait, is Woody part of Triplets?

Are there three of them? You never know. A sister in there somewhere. I'd watch it. Woody in a wig. Why not? Exactly. And then I'm attached to Crazy Rich Asians, which is a really great book.

Kevin Kwan wrote it. All Asian cast, Nina Jacobson producing with Brad Simpson. And it's a really great. It feels timely. It feels like it's one. I do, but with an all-Asian cast, which is really cool. And I've been a fan about, with a lot of people, we want to create sort of an all-star Asian cast for that. And it's a fully like a movie that I think can appeal all across the world. That's awesome. And just because it comes up in every

conversation, if you're a movie fan today, comic book movies, what's the one? I give you free reign. You can take over any comic book character that's already being made or is it still in the ether? Who do you want? Oh, man. That's a good one. Honestly, I would love to, I mean, I'm a huge dinosaur fan. So I would take over Jurassic World of some sort. That franchise is going strong. There's not a superhero, but that's one that I would love. Did you make a pitch?

Did you get in the room on one of those? No, I did. I once wrote a letter to Stephen Bing. Hey, if you ever make another one of these. Well, you've got an in. But I did get, yes, yes, yes. It's funny because Stephen's son, Theo. when I was doing Never Say Never was looking at the movie business a little bit,

but he's also a huge music guy. And so they called me and said, hey, do you mind if he like interns or just like hangs out while you're cutting Never Say Never? I was like, okay, if he's okay with being around like a Justin Bieber movie. So he came out and totally helped us out. He was awesome. And so we would yell, Spilberg, get over here, bring in the water. every once in a while but uh so yes so what would you do with Jurassic any any do you have a pitch

right now you want to make uh I I would do a lot of things but I will we'll keep that quiet for now okay okay I can get that one in to see him all right as possible well best of luck on that one and best of luck on this now you see me too is the new film as I said uh these these are these are tough films to make and you guys really accomplish something really fun it's it's it stands among the great caper films in recent years if you love oceans 11 the first now you see see me, I think you're going to dig. Now you see me too. So it's good to see you, man. Cool. Thank you. You too. Hi, I'm Sarah Thier. And I'm Susan Orlean, and nothing makes us happier than hearing what makes people cry.

On our show, Cry Babies, we talk to comedians, musicians, writers, and other awesome people about what makes them cry. And sometimes we cry, too. But it's the good kind of crying, therapeutic. Yeah. Like when Drew Drogey told us what, he loves Dead Poets Society. When it came out, I loved English. I wanted to be an English teacher. I was obsessed with that whole world.

And I'm boys boarding school. I thought that just looked so amazing. Also, like, Robert Sean Leonard was like. an actor and you know and i just thought that was such a that's such a fabulous thing to be so listen to cry babies find us on earwolf howl iTunes or your favorite podcast app this has been an earwolf production executive produced by scott ockerman adam sacks and chris bannon for more information and content visit earwolf dot com American history is full of infamous tales that continue to captivate audiences,

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