Happy Sad Confused - Josh Brolin, David Lynch

Episode Date: April 13, 2022

First up, Josh catches up with the enigmatic genius that is David Lynch on the occasion of the re-release of INLAND EMPIRE. Then, for our deep dive chat, it's Josh Brolin! Brolin in the middle of a hell of a second act and he's here to tell the tale. The star of NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN, MILK, & THE GOONIES reflects on his long strange trip, including pit stops in the MCU as Thanos and now a metaphysical western on Amazon, OUTER RANGE. You can purchase tickets to a LIVE Happy Sad Confused event now! 4/21 at 8pm -- THE NORTHMAN screening followed by a conversation with Alexander Skarsgard. Purchase tickets here. Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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please contact ConX Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Josh Brolin returns to TV with Outer Range, plus a quick chat with David Lynch. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Hurdle. Let's welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I don't know what to say, guys.

It's not just another edition of Happy, Say, Confused. It would be one thing if we were just talking about Josh Brolin, who is frankly someone I'd wanted to have on the show for quite a long while. I'll tell you why in a second. It's all the obvious reasons. But we also have David Lynch on the show, guys. David frickin' lynch. I mean, he is really one of the reasons I love film.

Stop. End of sentence. End of thought. He is a true artist, and when I had the opportunity to catch up with him, for a very brief chat, I will say that. It's a brief 10, 11-minute chat. I couldn't resist. So you're going to hear that in just a second.

Before we get to Josh and David Lynch, though, one bit of a reminder, a bit of housekeeping. We have a very exciting event in New York City. If you are in town next week, next Thursday, April 21st is our next live edition of Happy Sadden Confused at the 92nd Street Y. And it's not just any event. It is featuring a screening of the Northman, which truly, has had, I think, the best reviews of any film so far this year. It is the new work from Robert Eggers, he of The Witch and the Lighthouse fame. It is a truly brutal, gnarly,

arty Viking action film that features a stellar performance from Alexander Scarsgaard at the center of it. After the screening, I will be sitting down with Alexander for a career chat, you know, the drill, the usual kind of happy, say, confused conversation. It will be fun. Silly, smart, entertaining, all of those things. I hope you guys will join us. Tickets are available right now. I'll put all the information in the show notes. You know what to do.

Bring friends. Come along. See me and the dreamy actor that is, Mr. Alexander Scarsguard. April 21st in New York City following a screening of the Northman. Okay, so that's the housekeeping. Now let's get on to the two main events. Let me talk about Josh Brolin first. So later on in the episode will be the full normal kind of career chat

with Josh Browen. And as I said, like on any normal week, that would be like the main event. And it is the main event. I mean, this is a great chat with one of my favorite actors out there. Talk about a guy that reinvented himself. There's Josh Browen prior to 2007. He of the Goonies fame and various ups and downs, ups like fording with disaster. And then there's 2007 on Josh Browen who has had, you know, pretty much as great a career as any actor living today,

these last 15 years, all starting with no country for old men. And since then, he's, you know, worked with the Cones a few times. He's worked with PTA, Oliver Stone. He's worked with Marvel, like, as the ultimate villain in the MCU, as Thanos, in Deadpool 2. This guy always delivers, and not only that, he's a really fun guy to talk to. He is a no-b-s kind of guy, great stories, a straight shooter. And for all those reasons, I want to have him on the podcast. podcast for quite a while. He's got a new show on Amazon Prime. It's his first TV show in quite

a while, a series that is close to his heart. He's an executive producer of it. It's very appropriate on this David Lynch episode that we're talking about Outer Range because I think Josh describes it as a metaphysical Western. So it's kind of out there in a cool way. So that show, I believe it premieres this Friday on Amazon Prime. You should check it out. And that's the main event. I think a great career chat with Josh, and I think you guys will really dig it. You're going to hear that after my chat with David Lynch. So that's up next. So here's some context for David.

David Lynch, where to begin? Okay, first of all, here's why I'm talking to David Lynch. David Lynch's last feature film, released in theaters, was Inland Empire in 2006. It's been a while. It's been a long while. Ironically, that is the last time I spoke to David Lynch. I remember interviewing him. I actually found it online.

I dug it up. I talked to him. I have to talk to Laura Dern. And it is a through and through David Lynch film. It is out there in the best possible way. I'm not going to even attempt to describe the plot of the film. I mean, famously, I think Laura Dern was asked to describe the plot of the film and couldn't. So it's not about that.

It's about what you take out of it. What your interpretation is. It's about sitting with it. and sitting with the performances and the unique visual style. This was David Lynch's first foray into digital filmmaking. The reason for this chat is that Inland Empire is getting a theatrical release. It is currently playing in a bunch of cities, including my hometown here in New York City, in Los Angeles, and in various cities around the country.

It's getting a real theatrical release, which is really cool, especially in these times when, you know, outside of Marvel and Star Wars and, you know, all the usual blockbusters, it's hard to get into actual physical theaters. But Inland Empire has a real presence, and that is awesome. David Lynch supervised the restoration process of this film, and you'll hear him talk about it. He's very excited about it. Good Lynch. And I knew just every minute with David Lynch would be fascinating. I couldn't resist it. And I'm happy I did it. There are morsels of wisdom in even these 10 minutes with Mr. David Lynch. There's nobody like him. If you're not, if you're not, you know, keeping up to date with David Lynch, even though he hasn't directed a feature in some time, he has kept busy. Of course, in recent years, there was the brilliant Twin Peaks, the return, which is still. staggers me that it even exists. He directed 18 hours of Twin Peaks for us, guys. He co-wrote 18

hours of Twin Peaks, and it was brilliant. It was like nothing else on television. And now he's been keeping busy lately on YouTube. And I mean, it sounds insane to say that, but check it out. Every day on YouTube, every weekday, I believe, he does his weather report, which, you know, the true David Lynch fans know he did way back when, like 20 years ago. But that's back on YouTube. He also does a number of the day. It's all the quintessential, perfect, weird David Lynch-Linchian kind of things. And he may or may not be working on some feature film or television work. The rumor this past week was that David Lynch has a new film premiering at the Cannes Film Festival. I kind of referenced that towards the end of the conversation,

and you'll hear David say, it's just a rumor, that it's not true. I don't know if he's telling the truth or not. I hope he's actually not. I hope there is a new feature film there. I truly do. He also refused to talk about, for what it's worth, I brought up his reported role in the new Steven Spielberg film, The Fableman's. The reports are that he plays John Ford in that film, which is a very personal story of Steven Spielberg's childhood. He, of course, a famous child of divorce. So it could be a very busy year for David Lynch fans. We may or may not have to be a very busy year. We may not have a new film, TV series, the rumors of a Netflix series. I don't know. We'll see what happens. And hopefully we'll also see him on the big screen in Steven Spielberg's The Fablemans

later this year. So that's some context for this conversation. It's also some context for why I mention what the number of the day is and the weather in LA referencing, of course, his YouTube videos. Yeah, so that's all you need to know. I hope you guys enjoy this. I mean, he's just a, he's, he's a one of a kind master. And like I said, I couldn't resist it. I hope you guys enjoyed this chat with David, followed immediately by the usual deep dive conversation with truly one of our great actors working today and one of the great conversationalists. So don't sell it short. Don't stop after David Lynch. Stick with it. David Lynch coming at you first, followed by Mr. Josh Rowland.

Hello there, Mr. Lynch. Hey, Josh. Thank you so much for taking the time today, sir. This is a true, a true honor. Thank you, sir. You got it. I've already learned that my number of the day is five. I know the weather is good out there,

so I feel like I'm in safe hands with David Lynch today. Good deal. Congratulations, sir. It's a feat for any film to have a shelf life more than a week, sadly. It seems like nowadays. And here we are talking about Inland Empire. The last time I spoke to you was about Inland Empire 15 years ago, sir. So something is going right in the universe.

Good deal, good deal, bud. Talk to me a little bit about the challenge of getting this back in theaters. Did folks come to you with this? Was this something that you were seeking or what? No, folks came to me. You know, I don't know what prompted them. You know, like Criterion, they have its great reputation of gathering together what they call important cinema. They came to me and wanted to do, I think it was, I'm not sure which came first, Eraserhead or then Mahal and Drive maybe in, I don't know all the different ones.

but anyway, then came Inland Empire. And it gave me a chance, because the 15 years that passed, to use modern technology to do even more up-reshing from the quality of the Sony PD-150, which was low, low-res. So it's such a fantastic world. these algorithms, this new AI thing that we used jumped this thing like you can't believe and modern breakthroughs in sound, cleaning of dialogue came along and also helped the sound.

So Inland Empire is, you know, a richer, deeper, more focused, you know, you know, piece of cinema with better sound now. And so it's a great, big, beautiful world. Even by your standards, this was an unusual undertaking. I mean, this was a film. It was the first film, a project you shot, I believe, on digital. It was a film without a complete script when you started shooting it. You kind of evolved as you went.

For those reasons, does it hold a special place in your heart because of the methodology, the approach to the film? Every film holds a special place in my heart, but it was the digital world that I really fell in love with, even though I, along with, I, along with lots of others, know that film celluloid, emulsion, grain. and is the most beautiful so far and there's nothing like it and modern technology is also shown what fantastic things are in that emotion on a little teeny 35 millimeter frame that can now be seen that couldn't be seen when the film came out originally right it's amazing what that is that emotion captures those lenses and emotion in the whole rig and so it's then but that digital brought speed the possibility for faster longer takes freedom freedom lightweight it it

was like a giant breath of fresh air and it bent the that's so much benefited from that. But the quality wasn't there. And but the quality is getting better and better and better. And we're just at the brink where the next generation will surpass emotion, you know, the film. And, um, and it's, it's, it's, it's right around the corner. It's right there. I want to bring up your collaboration with your actors in this, you know, front and center, and I vividly remember the awards campaign like no other for the great Laura Dern for this one. I mean, it's a unique opportunity. It's one of the benefits, I guess, of sticking in this business for as long as you and Laura have in that you first work with her when she's a teenager and you get to work with her at these different stages in her life.

I mean, just talk to me. I mean, you did that recently in Twin Peaks with her and Kyle and so many others. That must just be a great joy for you to return to these. actors. I'm in love with her and she's family and she's so talented and we love working together. So, you know, and when we did Inland Empire, nobody was working with digital film. It was like looked down upon like sort of a very, very bad thing. We took off working on Inland Empire with the Sony PD 150 and Laura stuck with me and we made that one of the earliest digital films and it was also at a time when the internet was you know in such a way that it was still kind of strange to know

did I could sit at the corner of Hollywood Boulevard and La Brea in a kind of a church yard with a cow and that could travel around the world yes in a matter of hours Yes and Laura's husband

at that time Ben Harper was in Paris and called her and said I just saw you I saw David with a big placard of you on Hollywood Boulevard. So it's like now it would be pretty, you know, understandable that it would go around the world. Things go around the world instantly. But then it was a big, kind of a strange thing. I was just going to say it's one of the things that I admire about you is that, you know,

so many filmmakers can, it's part of the reason I feel like some filmmakers as they age, frankly, the atrophy and they kind of hit, they go past the peak is they don't adapt. And you, look, I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're, contributing YouTube content every day now. Like you are so open to finding new ways to express your art. And that must keep it fresh and must keep it exciting and must keep it vibrant for you as you, so you're not stuck in amber in the past. Well, it's not something you can force.

It's something that comes along and or it doesn't come along. So, but I do think that people, it generally speaking generally speaking um you know like when you're a baby when you're a baby it's real hard to hold a sony p.d 150 camera i mean you've seen babies try to do it but it flops out of their hand then they get to be a little older and they can hold that thing and then they get to a little bit older, they can get some ideas and they can make films and they get older and they make some really, you know, interesting films.

And then they get older and something happens and they stop, you know, wanting to do that. And they go into what they call retirement. Right. And then they get old and they can hardly walk and then they, you know, die. So it's just the way it is. And it makes room for the new. things. And they always talk, oh, the young kids, you know, it makes you puke in a way.

But it's like, this is what generally speaking happens. It doesn't mean that an old person can't get a great new idea. And so I always say, you've got to practice transcendental meditation so you can transcend and infuse that, you know, consciousness and grow in that. And that is unbounded creativity inside you, that you can tap, unbounded happiness, that you can tap, unbounded energy, intelligence. It's there. You're a fool not to go and get it. But people hear about it.

They say, no, not for me. Or I practice this other kind of thing. You've got to transcend to get it. That's the secret. Anyway, so you can get old, new ideas and be an old person. one last thing for you. I know her time is short. It sounds like, I'm very curious to see your collaboration with another great filmmaker. You were apparently in Steven Spielberg's next film. Did it take much arm twisting to get you into that film? Was it an enjoyable experience?

NDA, I cannot talk about that. But I guess it's true. But I can't talk about it. Fair enough. As I understand, there are a number of things we can't talk about with your upcoming work. whatever happens there's nothing i don't have a film it can you don't oh okay i do not have a film it can no that's a rumor that is a bona fide rumor okay fair enough we've set the record straight well regardless i will take any excuse to catch up with you sir whether it's re-releases of your brilliant older work or new works i hope we get to see some more twin peaks before all the said and done uh i just want to thank you for just all your contributions over the years sir you know i usually do very long conversations they offered me this and i said i cannot

just 10 minutes with one of my idols. So thank you, sir, for the time today. Josh, it was a real pleasure and all the best to you. Congrats on the news show, man. I've been watching it six episodes in. Crazy, cool stuff. You have all eight? I do, I do.

I'm glad. Just got back from Churchill Boxing Club, which is my foray back into From Brothers, which is getting completely out of shape. gaining weight, you know, this whatever idea that I had in the back of my fucking head. But now it's about getting ready for Dune. So I was like, I have to, you know, the intention was finish brothers get right back into shape. And then, you know what I mean? And that didn't happen. When you have a one year old and a three year old, it's much less

likely to happen because you're focused on that. One is focused. I am focused. And so I did a boxing thing today, which was very, there's a guy, an actor, Frank Grillo, who I've really, he's done the podcast. Yeah, he's the best. One of the sweetest human beings ever and truly humble and truly tough, like a real tough guy. And he was like, you know, you should go to Churchill, which I had gone to a long time ago. And I said, look, I just have to, I have to waken, you know, waking everything up. I have to waken all these kind of small muscles up. Anyway, long story short, I went today and it was like I had epilepsy after it. It was like all the seizures all over, all these muscles. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Like.

All this stuff was, it just, it, my body was completely freaking out. And if you had seen the workout, it was the most basic workout ever. Doesn't get easier, does it? No, dude. Grillo and Bernthal, those are the two guys I don't want to run into. I don't want to cross. Those guys are the real deal. I've never worked with Gorilla, but I have worked with Bernthal and both guys I have high, high, high respect for. Good guys. Good guys through and through. As are you, sir, this has been a long time coming. I've been asking, begging, just groffling, and finally outer range has given us a chance

for the long form, deep dive, where we're both going to be crying by the end. Josh Brolin, official welcome to the happy, say, confused podcast, man. I mean, you're someone I've always enjoyed talking to because, I mean, you either don't bullshit or if you are bullshitting, you're doing it in a very entertaining way.

So that makes for a good conversation. I think, yeah, well, you know what? But if I'm bullshitting, you know I'm bullshitting. I think I do. Yeah, I think so. I lie bullshit. I think I bullshit like in your face satirically bullshit. I'm also just fascinated.

I mean, I have the utmost respect for you and your career and the way you've carried yourself. And the way and the path of your career, which is like there's no tried and true path for any actor. But you, I don't know, you have like this demarcation point, as you well know. Like, do you view like pre-2007 Josh Brolin as like version one point? and then version 2.0 post no country because it's it's two different lives career wise seemingly yet it's the same guy yeah no it definitely there's no way not to see that kind of I don't

I don't know if I'd call it a turning point or an I think it's just really an opportunity you know I had done some things before that you know flirting with disaster was a high point but it was usually because a director just like with with no country it was usually because a director had some insight or belief or felt like I could do something that it would bring something that nobody else had brought yet or whatever that is, you know, and I've tried to talk to the Coens about it and they're absolutely uninterested in breaking that down or deconstructing that at all. But I know with flirting with disaster, it was David. That was an Asian role initially. It was like, you know, Mike Wong or something. And I got in there somehow and I read for it.

And he just liked this one thing that I did. And I remember Miramax at the time said they were abjectly against me doing the role. I mean, they just said, that's somebody who should have made it, who didn't. And like, why do you want to do that? We want to, we want to obviously use people that are up-and-comers and this. And ironically, once I did that, and I think I'm the only name that's not on the poster. I mean, they did everything they could, you know, could do to make it obvious that I was unwanted. And the movie was really fun and I was happy about, you know, what we created and there was a lot of creating on the set and a lot of collaboration, a lot of writing together.

And then I became like a Miramax guy for a few movies and then whatever. But I think 2007 created, I was doing Grindhouse and then no country came up. And I, you know, as you know, the story, I auditioned for it, you know, and Quentin and Robert helped me. and their response was who lit it. They were not interested in the actor in the audition at all, I mean, to the point of not even mentioning it. And then I got into a room and they saw something that they wanted. So I feel very good that that wasn't just a one-off, kind of like flirting was.

Well, that's what I was going to say in those years since. Was there a sense of like, okay, I've been called up to the big leagues? This is what ostensibly I've been wanting for all these years. Now it's time to put up or shut up. how much of that is in your control then? Like, I mean, was it easier to chart a path in those years, those initial years after? Or was it as much of a struggle in a different way? I don't, I don't know if it was a, and I also don't know it was like, this is where I wanted to be.

You know, people always said to me for years, they said, you know, it's right around the corner for you. And I was like, after 20 years, you go, so where's the corner, what's the corner look like? Just give me an idea of what it looks like. And then I remember getting to a place where I was, I said, I'm good. I'm like I'm a working actor. I'm able to survive doing this profession. I'm able to put my kids through school and all that. So I'm okay.

And I think it's ironic that around that time I did my last TV show and the energy, the amount of energy that's asked of one to do a network TV show, I was just not interested in after a while. So I said I would rather not act. act, then do this again. And I really liked the show, the last show that I did in Lawrence O'Donnell Jr. And I loved him and I still am good friends with him. But there was something about that energy and that output and that it was content, content, content, you know, it was, we didn't finish this scene. So let's grab that scene. Let's grab the reverse of that scene. And we're doing

five other scenes today and all that kind of stuff that I just wasn't interested in. And in creating that whole, I do think that, you know, it was there to be filled. And, and, and, and, you know, and you know i i said i'm fine i found a niche in stock trading and all that kind of stuff and how ironic that no country would happen like within i don't know a year and a half or two years i think if you're willing to let certain things go it's such a cliche but if you really are you know it was like way back in the day when when when i got um some small surfer part in the annette funichello frankie avalon back to the beach you know there comeback and I'd gotten the role and I just didn't want to I don't know there was something

about the role I just didn't want to do or about the movie and then there was a series that everybody wanted called Private Eye and it was all the people from Hill Street and NYPD Blue and St. Elsewhere and there was just no way I was going to get that role and I was so I said well I don't think I'm going to take this Annette Funicello Frankie Avalon thing I think I'm going to go for the series and I got called by four different agents at ICM telling me what an idiot I was and I remember I went out to the basketball court of this friend of mine's house and I shot baskets just to kind of have the moment to myself and I said I don't care if they think I'm an idiot and so I'm glad that I have that thing however that was instilled I think by my mother but I've just fuck it let's just

go for this one I know it's not going to happen yeah let's go for it and I think that's kind of a enabled these opportunities to be able to have you you mentioned your mom because i mean and i know you lost her relatively young and and she sadly i guess didn't get to see a lot of these recent successes we've talked about people of course know your dad from his acting work but it sounds like by all intensive purposes obviously i mean it's to say everyone is the sum of their parts of both their parents but like as you look in the mirror today you see both parts you see you see your mom in there as much as your dad what's what's which part is what break it down from me a little bit I see the facial structure of my father for sure and he's a humble guy you know I think there's

there's a there's a bit of humility that I got from my my father my mother was not a humble person my mother was it's funny because I just ran across somebody at a wedding I was at a director's wedding who I just worked with and and the people who started Gelson's were there and I guess my they were family friends way back in the day and and I ran into her and she told me all these did you remember when you used to come over to our house and this and just went on like a 20-minute monologue about my mother and and i haven't had that happened for a while but people who i know because my wife you know katherine obviously never got to meet my mother so once she becomes privy to these stories you know she only hears it from me my mother was a great character

She's like one of the last great characters of all time. And so I like to think that I have some of that in me. I like to think that, you know, I'm attracted to people with personality. I'm attracted to that, you know, aspect or character trait of people. And I think that absolutely comes from my mom. And my mom was also a big reader. My mom could like hold down a 400 page book in a night. And then it was usually like bad books, like true prime books, you know.

and she'd call me and say, you have to come and sit next to me in my bag because I feel unsafe right now. Totally, like a completely irresponsible mother. And even she would admit that, you know, ran a wildlife way station. My brother and I had to clean out the wolf cages and the cougar cages and all that from like seven years old. I mean, just not okay. But great to talk about alive.

Well, it's funny because the way you describe them just now, it kind of does. encapsulate what I know of you, which is kind of like you're the character actor, weirdo in the leading man body, kind of. Like you've lived both lives and you've got like the eccentricities, which makes every character, like you can't play the boring leading man with all due respect. What's interesting, and I'm not going to mention who it is, but somebody just stopped by the house. And this is very rare that this happens, but he's an actor that I know. And I really like him a lot. He's a good dude. And he was talking about shaving his head doing this thing. and everybody was like, you can't do that because people know you as this thing.

And I thought, how funny. I said, I'm the opposite. I'm like, nobody expects, and I'm very grateful for it, that nobody expect, like, I'm kind of this in Neanderthal kind of category where people are like, you don't know what he's going to do. It doesn't really matter. It's not based on a type that we've accepted him as. He's just going to, you know, throw all caution to the wind and do whatever the fuck he wants, which I, or whatever the collaboration, you know, creates and whatever we decide upon, which is more, you know, that's more truthful. But yeah. What a more fun, what a more fun lane to be in, though, man. I mean, come on. Like, I mean, with all, I love Harrison Ford. Don't get me wrong. But Harrison Ford has had to be in that one lane for 40 years. He tried to do other things,

which I actually appreciated very much. But remember when he was shot and had and he had. Regarding Henry, short. Regarding Henry. Yeah. I like the movie personally, but I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Daniel Craig is an amazing character actor. Good example. Then he did this, which is why to me was one of the best bonds that has ever been. Yeah.

You know, but it's hard because he had, and he knows it. He has this franchise now that he has to work against. And I want to be able to find something with him because I know what that itch is. You know, I've done, you know, not that Dune's not a character thing, but or Avengers or whatever it is, but you do these kind of highfalut in movies. And there's something that starts to scratch at your throat or your brain or your desire. And that's how can we screw this up? A lot of people do the opposite. How can we keep this going? I have no interest in keeping this going. Or playing it safe. I mean, that gives me a good segue to your new project.

I mean, outer range, like you were talking, Mr. Sterling like 15, 16, 17 years ago when you leave that one. And that's a network show, has some great talent behind. it. But the thing that's changed is everything right in the last 15, 16 years and the environment that allows for something like outer range, which is a super fucking weird show. And I say that like with the highest compliment. Like it's not like you guys are embracing the mystery and like not laying it all out there. And that's got to be like a really creative fulfilling place to be as an actor and as a producer. Ultimately. During the process, it's very difficult. And And it was a very difficult show to do.

And it's a tone that I think was very difficult to find. And I think if you're really truthful about it, it's like the idea of getting into this and saying, hey, man, let's go for this big swing. And we're all in the middle of it saying, God, we're going for the biggest swing. And isn't this and this. But the truth of the matter is you don't know how people are going to respond to it. And you don't, you know, what's the cohesiveness of the series? And does it really tie up?

And, you know, does it feel like one acts? or does it feel truly tied together or what do people respond? Like, to me, the hole was the biggest issue. And it's turned out to be the least issue. It's the one thing that people have literally, as we've tested it, have gone, I don't know about all the other stuff, but I fucking love the hole. It's great. And I'm like, really?

Okay, that's great. We spent a lot of hours worried about that hole, but great. You know, I was worried about that hole. And I made a lot of jokes about the hole and all that kind of stuff. But the idea of, and you know what I'm going to say, the idea of taking a genre that's pretty straightforward and being able to turn it on its head with something supernatural or metaphysical, I find really interesting, especially having been grown up on a ranch and having been truly deeply influenced by like Ray Bradbury and Isaac Asmoff and people like that, especially Bradbury,

which just like, it just blew my whole world wide open. And I just thought, wow, you can think in these terms or kind of escape on these terms and actually come back and it will, you know, kind of change the hue of your reality and all this kind of stuff and perspective. And I always found that deeply, deeply inspiring. So, you know, this will be a process, which I like. It will definitely not be boring in the making of whether we continue this thing or not. It will, there'll always be kind of an interior question mark that drives this thing. And me, especially, like what can we do? What's the most interesting in taking ordinary people

and throwing extraordinary circumstances at them and watching them tweak? And it's also like surprising to me and maybe it shouldn't have been surprising, but it's not like just a vanity piece for you. It's a true ensemble. Like, I mean, you give a lot of room for this great cast to have some fun and sink their teeth into the material.

That being said, like, I'm curious, like you as an actor. Like, I think it's an episode two. You've got this great, like, kind of little monologue at the kitchen table as the kind of, camera pushes in on you. Do you still kind of get off on that when you got when you kind of know like it's your day to. I don't know if I get off on it. I think I get scared, which I think is the whole point. Yeah. I think again, it's like, oh, above title to this, this is your show, how are you going to play it safe? That's not playing it safe. Right. That's a scene that you can really fail on,

you know, and and I like that aspect. I don't like it while it's happening. I like it as a concept. I like it as a reaction. But while it's happening, you know, that's when you go home and you actually study. You know, I was talking to Anthony Hopkins about that. And he, no, I know that's a name drop moment. But it was like he's a guy who I truly look up to because, you know, he, there's a similarity in how we think. There's a humility in how we think. And then there's also that that factor of like, I know what it takes in order to be in the most effect. place when you do something like that. And what it is is study, study, study, study, study, some people like to do it off the cuff. They don't want to be over-rehearsed. We're kind of the

opposite. You know, we read the script 150 times. We'll go over the scene hundreds of times. And then to me, then you kind of like, you have the ability at that moment to pretend like you never looked at it before. And then it hits you from different angles. And you're like, oh, well, let's go down that road or well, you're thinking of something in the middle of doing the speech and I get up and the table goes over or something like that. And you go, okay, that doesn't work. We didn't get it on film because you didn't tell us you were going to do it. That becomes exciting to me. And to not tense up in that moment. Because yeah, I've heard Anthony Hopkins talk about this. I mean, to hear him talk about it, he's not even working. It's like, I show up and I say

the lines. He's obviously minimizing it completely. He's doing the work like you are. He's lying, what he's doing. He's lying. But because I've heard you talk about this before. And look, I've talked to every manner of actor. And you got to respect all the processes as long as it's not fucking with someone else's process. But like you do the work, a lot of the work before you even get to set so that you can, as you kind of just said, you can play and be hopefully relaxed and in the moment. I'm curious, like, do you work well with every kind of actor? Can you work with the guy that's like in it and is just kind of like he's Thanos at the catering table too? Like, is that fuck with you?

Or are you like, okay, God's speed. I've been very, very lucky and I haven't been, I've heard horror stories and I've worked with people who those horror stories are about. And I've never had, or rarely have I ever had to deal with that. Yeah. I don't know if, I mean, I know what I bring to a set and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, it's, it's, it's, it's almost like dictating that that thing doesn't work here, whatever it is. I don't know, and I don't want to sound arrogant in that, but I've been very lucky to work with some either well-known incredible actors or totally unknown incredible actors. And what I've found, especially with well-known actors and while working with well-known

directors, is, again, there's an incredible humility there. and there's a deep work ethic. Do you know what I mean? And I'm not saying that I would tell you the, I mean, you know me, I would tell you the opposite. If there were people that I go, oh, no, that guy's just a dick.

It's just, but, and everybody does have a different process. But I think, I don't know, man, I've really been, it's crazy. I mean, even working with Oliver, I'd heard horror stories about Oliver. And Oliver was the kind, I'd heard things that I don't think are true about, Spike. And I got along with Spike probably better than any director other than the Cohen's that I've ever worked with. Wow. And I just loved him. I loved everything that he was about. I loved how he pushed. I loved how he went, you know, I asked him at some point like what, like I'm a little afraid of this character. What do you think? And he goes, kill it. That's what I think. I think

you're going to kill it. You know, I was a direction. All right. Spike the cheerleader. Good. So I've been very fortunate. Yeah. So, okay. Okay, forgive me, I'm going to bounce around a little bit, but I'm curious, okay, like over the years, you've, it's funny. I was talking to like, of all people, like Jerry O'Connell yesterday, and we talked about stand by me and how stand by me, like, over the years, he kind of had to kind of, you know, come to terms with it. There were times where he loved talking about it, times where he hated talking about it. My sense from you is maybe you had a little bit of that with Goonies for a while. I don't know. Was there kind of a journey with Goonies?

And now that, sadly, we lost Dick Donner in the last year, is there a new perspective? on that journey and on what not because of losing dick i think that there was new perspective once you know things like no country american gangster and milk happened because you know i mean some people again some people thrive off this and i'm not even saying anybody in the goonies but you know if you're lucky enough to have one movie that people remember i think that's a huge thing in our industry um or that chosen profession but i i didn't want that personally you know So it was 20 somewhat years of you're the dude from the Goonies. You're the old brother from the Goonies.

And after a while, you're like, yeah, yeah. Hey, do you want a Dubloon? I can get you one. No, I don't want one. Do you want a piece of the house? No, I really don't want a piece of the house. But not because I don't care, but because I don't care. And then it's a really, really, really,

wonderful moment or it was a wonderful moment when I was able to not only look at that but look at thrash and which became like a cold hit right in people coming up and saying you know you have no idea what that movie did it changed my life you know like my parents were this types of people these types of people and I got into skateboarding and if it wasn't for skateboarding I probably wouldn't have lived past 13 or whatever and now I can hear that whereas I couldn't before I was like I sucked in that film I wish we could do it over kind of thing. You know, so I love talking about the Goonies now to the point that we did a reunion reading and I had a blast. I think I think Martha Plimpton and I were more into it than

anybody. We had like props like little bicycle props and you know what I mean? It was like it was really it's really fun to be able to get to a place in your life where you can embrace things that should be embraced, but that you don't because you feel like it defines you in some way. The baggage is gone because you've accumulated enough other fun stuff to talk about. I totally get it. I'm curious, you know, like the choices you've made again, these last 10, 15 years when like the great directors have, I mean, I guess it's easy. Like, look, at the Cohen Brothers call, you say yes. I mean, that's an easy one.

But are the blockbuster kind of things tough to figure out? Has it been tough to figure out which one to say yes to, to say yes to Thanos, to say no, from what I gather, or I don't know what happened on Jurassic World. Like, why was that the one that didn't work out when these other ones did? I don't know. It's an, it's an, it's an instinct, man. And, you know, that there's only one movie. And I might tell you what it is.

There's only one movie. And again, I don't like, even that one movie, I don't look at like, God, I should have done it. That would have changed something or that would have, because I understand why I didn't do it, this one movie that I'm talking about within you read to. and I think what it wasn't based on the movie, it was based more on working with another great director and I still appreciate him as being one of the great directors. But that's all I'll say.

Revenant? But now I'm going back. No, it's not. It's not Revenant, but it's another one. It doesn't have that big of filmography. I'm going to figure it out, Josh. But like, but let you know, I know he doesn't. But it was Amoros.

It was playing one of dogs. It was, so when I, you know, with like Avengers, that wasn't supposed to be what it turned out to be. That was a much smaller, you know, and they had given me this Bible. I think I was doing Everest at the time, and I was in London, and they brought this Bible over. And I just, I loved kind of how inside it they were and how into it and how impassioned they were. And I knew Louis Desposito when he was at first AD. And so there were all these connections. And I was like, oh, this would be fun.

This is something different to do right now. You know, something like Deadpool, you know, that was more around like there is no 50-year-old guy that does an action film for the first time. Like there's 30-year-old guys that build a career on it, but there's no 50-year-old dude that shows up and does that. That was interesting to me. that was that's a big swing kind of thing to me and then Jurassic world you know with all respect to Stephen you know I I just started I just it didn't I could not picture me doing it I could not picture me being that guy and I'm very very happy based on my decision of what Chris does with it because I think Chris is the right guy do you know what I mean when I saw Chris in Guardians of the

Galaxy, I was like, because I knew him a little bit before that. And I was just like, what? I mean, we all were. Sure. I even said it to him kind of embarrassingly when I saw him at a party once. And I was like, dude, what the fuck? You know what I mean? And it was kind of, it was embarrassing.

I was, because I get really excited about other people doing well. You know, it doesn't just have to be me. And, and so, yeah, I think he's, I think I knew from a big picture standpoint that somebody else would do a much better job than me. I've asked you about this in the past. I'm only bringing it up because I feel like this would have been cool. I know there have been like six Batman that have come and gone since then. There's a new Batman every 18 months now.

But the idea of being Batman for a second when Zach had that conversation with you, excite you? Yeah. That was interesting to me. That was his decision. That wasn't my decision. Got it. That was his decision.

That was an interesting, yeah, that was an interesting con. Again, because like something that is set up to not work at all or to work flyingly, I like, I like those odds. Yeah. I like playing with those odds. I'm like, am I the guy who's going to make it all fail? You're screwed up, you're screwed up. By the way, who I didn't think was bad, but, you know, you talk to Clooney and he's just like,

yeah. He's still joking about it. I know. And it wasn't his fault. He loves a nipple joke. He loves a nipple joke. I was all Joel, but, you know, he didn't do anything wrong. But, yeah, that's a, because again, it would have been, that was before Deadpool 2.

Yeah. It would have been the older, you know, more, the raspy, for lack of a better word. No, you were closer to that, that Dark Night Returns comic book that I envision. Like, if you can't get Eastwood, who was a little too old, long in the tooth to play that, I can see Brolin doing that. So, I mean, it's one of those, what-ups that would have been cool. Honestly, that would have been a fun deal. Maybe I'll do it when I'm 80.

Hey, there's time. You and Deney have a good thing going, Needles to say. That's a good one to hit your wagon, too. Talk to me a little bit about you. So Dune is coming up relatively soon for you. Have you insisted this time your songs don't get cut? Did you take it personally when Deney cuts a scene from you? I did.

He felt really bad. He actually felt really bad. And it takes a lot for me to sing. But we will do it again. and it will stay unless i'm so even if i'm bad they'll put somebody else's voice in there doesn't like seline dion it's that's not josh for a what yeah i i yeah i look forward to this next one do you know what's in store have you seen anything yet like script wise or no it's too early no i've been told i actually haven't been given a script and habier and i spoke about it the other day

which is why i was boxing today because when we saw each other at the oscars you know we both said that we had talked to Denis the week before and that we panicked because he was like, you know, you're in the desert and you're with the fremen and, and, you know, you fight for a lot of the movie and, and I did. I panic because I still had my punch and so did Javier. So we both went on this instantaneous diet. You remember the still suits. Do not forgive that body. They cling to every morsel. Yeah. And it's a different thing when you're in your 50s, man. It's like it takes a lot longer and it's a lot more work to get back into that kind of shape. You mentioned the Oscars. Don't worry. I'm not going to rehash the controversy of the Oscars, but I want a bigger picture stuff. Do you lose sleep about like the state of the industry? It's the elephant in the room we all talk about. But like we all love movies and I don't know about you. Like do you worry that it's Marvel and Star Wars are bust in theatrical? There's this dwindling audience clearly for the Oscars that doesn't seem to ever be coming back. Like there are real signs that like we are in a major, we're living in the major shift. And there might not be.

going back. Is that something that worries you? There was a there was a there was a there was a point where every studio and every negotiation was based on well the industry isn't what it was before and that was a negotiational tactic but it was never true and um and and now there's a shift and now the shift is because of a lot of different things because of marble it's because of you know what Thomas Toll created who's a really good buddy in mine you know which is the tent pole kind of system and spend a lot more money on a movie, go big, and then the profit margin is much bigger and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, worry is not the word. You know what I mean? Are you malleable within the shift? You know, we're not volvillian actors anymore in a, in a, in a,

in a wagon that gets put down in the middle of a forest or whatever, and nine people show up and we're able to liar themselves through, you know, whatever story. And I think story is so essential, man it's the hand me down it's the it's the you know the the the the fire pit you know hand me down of stories and you know things that i grew up with and that i appreciate very much and again just in the big picture of things you hope it doesn't get marred by only escapism and that there is some social mirror that is that is that is still incorporated into our storytelling which i think is the point to be able to identify in some way and to say oh wow or like with Ray Bradbury when I was a kid being,

God, I would love to live in that world just for a moment. And that's the type of artful escapism that I think is actually good for us and not necessarily bad because it enhanced my life for sure. But I don't get worried because I know things change. You know, it's like having kids, man. It's like having a 33-year-old and a 28-year-old. And then you have a three-year-old and a one-year-old. Well, are you a different person?

Are you this? you that you know that again it's like can you work within the chaos right and i feel very good because i don't have a set thing that i do so i already bring my own chaos into it so as the shift happens i'm kind of going welcome i've been here the whole time right so how are we going to make this new medium of streaming work for us are we going to figure because nobody's figured it out yet. What does this mean? Oh, do you do a series because everybody's doing a series and all that? No, if I'm going to do a series, I'm going to do eight episodes. I'm not going to do 22 episodes and I'm going to do something that may fail miserably. And I'm willing to do that

just like I have been with movies and just like I have been with theater. I have no interest in gliding. Why haven't you directed yet? You love photography, you love storytelling, you love the big picture. You have learned at the feet of the greats. I'm kind of shocked. Maybe outside of having kids that are occupying your time, is there another reason why you haven't directed? You know, I mean, it's a good question, and it's a question that I need to be asked a lot right now, because a lot of people have asked me, a lot of filmmakers have asked me, and very sweetly. And I think, I think part of it is I was, I was really focused on that road around no country. and there was there was and i was really lending my you know i'd done behind the scenes in no country

and nobody ever had had a camera behind the scenes of a cohen brothers film and we did that kind of satirical fun film for you know with that i had done x at the time but i think one is time and i think that what happened i don't i think it's experienced too it's like i've now i've gotten to the place where i've worked with enough people where i feel like i've garnered enough experience it's an enough point of view where it's time. So we're focused more more on it now than we've ever been. But I think there's a fear factor too. It's funny because you take full responsibility for that.

And I think that I've done that like without a range or with brothers or with, you know, taking more of a producer and not like a vanity producer role, like an active producer role. And and I feel the weight of that. And I know I can deal with the weight of that. And I just think it's lending myself to finally just, fuck, dude, you got me all fucked up. Just get out of the boxing gym.

And no, no, I mean, look, it's a huge undertaking. You just got to do it. You just got to do it. It's very simple. And, you know, I finished a play that I wanted to direct when I was doing Outer Range. I finished that play and I had all that cast read that play and it read pretty well. And it's an interesting play, a very strange off-camera play,

but an interesting play. And I was going to direct that. during this time, but with kids, there's no possible way. But yeah, it's close. I'm close. Thanks for asking. No, no. I mean, it makes sense on paper, and I hope you get to it at some point when the time is right. I mean, look, there's too much to do. I know it's been probably two decades since you've done stage here in New York. We'd love to have you here. But like, that's, that takes you out of the game for six months and moves your family and it's just practical life gets in the way. And I get it.

I ask you for a comfort movie. I've been asking folks for comfort movies the last couple of years when we need comfort. It's always very telling, I think, in different respects, what we choose. I love the one you chose. You've worked with this director before. Tell me why you chose what you chose and why it brings you comfort. You know, there's kind of a past I have with it.

And when, you know, I've had many surgeries. And it was always in that kind of oxy-cotton haze that I would put on get shorty. Because it literally, there's in that hay. post-surgery, there is a deep discomfort. And for some reason, get shorty, got me great comfort. And every time I see it, even now,

not being in an oxycotton haze, it always brings me great joy. There's nothing I don't like about that movie. Take two oxycontin and one get shorthy and seeming the morning. So for those that don't know, and look, if you listen to this podcast, you probably do. But it's, of course, based on the Elmore-Wennard book. It was written by the great Scott Frank.

Frank, directed by Barry Sonnenfeld, amazing cast. What do we got? We got John Travolta, Danny DeVito, Gene Hackman. I mean, there's no actor I talk about more on this podcast than Gene Hackman. René Russo. And yeah, it's one of those things that like... James Gandalfini. Gandalfini Del Rilindo.

It's a, yeah, it's a who's who of great character actors, having fun, and it feels like it's... And look, Sonnenfeld's work is always fascinating to me because he's swinging board. his tone is kind of all over the place. And on the times when he hits it, it's amazing. And the couple times he hasn't, it doesn't work. But again, you know, no risk, no reward. And Elmore Leonard stories, they're tough. They're tough to crack.

And he did. No, he absolutely did it. I think it's one of the most brilliantly, I mean, to Scott Franks, it's one of the most brilliantly constructed, structured scripts out there, I think. What do you watch generally? Again, I know you're busy with young ones at home. But like, do you watch TV? Do you watch film?

Like what would you try to watch TV? You know, I, I, what is that? Oh, it just escaped me. What is the big show right now? Zendaya's show. Oh, Euphoria, sure. Euphoria, you know, I've seen some of those which reminded me of this movie, Waves that I really liked a lot, that a DP, Drew Daniels, who worked on Outer Range.

And so I saw that because I knew he was going to, or he was possibly going to work on Outer Range. And I saw that. So Euphoria reminds me of that way. And I like it a lot. You know, I miss the Breaking Bad days, you know, and that may be just because I'm not because I have kids and all that and we're not just sitting in front of the TV. Yeah. But Breaking Bad to me was one of those things that you're like, oh, yeah, I'll watch it.

And, you know, Brian Cranston is so good and da-da-da-da-da, and then you watch it. And then you find yourself, it's three in the morning and you're like, you know you have to wake up at seven. You just go, okay, just one more. Right. Just one more. I love that feeling. You know, I love that feeling. There was a movie that I saw this year called the worst person in the world. And I got that feeling. It was like we had to turn it off because we had to wake up with the kids. And then we, you know, when we turn off a movie halfway through a movie, the likelihood that we're going to get back to it is almost nil. And we had to the next step was like both of us. My wife and I were like, we have to. It's like, put the kids to sleep early. But isn't also a great feeling to see, like, also an actor you've never heard of before? And you're like, oh, my God, this is a star.

This is someone to see the next 30 years. We saw Paul, you know, I worked with on, in her advice. And then we were talking for a long time. And then he said, have you seen this movie? And I was like, dude. Yeah. We saw it. It's amazing.

He goes, oh, she's become a good friend of mine. I was like, introduce me. And I'm never like that. I'm never, ever, ever like that. And I had to meet her. And we talked to her for a very long time and then we left. It was like the perfect, it was like, okay, that was the moment. Yeah, you did it.

That was a sweet spot. And then you don't go to the party after that. And then you're going to go over to the other party after that. You just go home, happy. And I went home happy. Yeah, she's really special, special actress, man. Are there filmmakers, you mentioned any of Ritu, like, are there one, actors or filmmakers that you're surprised you haven't collaborated on

that you've been chasing for the last couple decades that you're still itching to there's no chasing going on because i've never been that guy and i don't know why but you know you would think it would be lack of ambition and it's not necessarily or lack of interest but i've never like oliver was like god if i could only work with oliver i could only work with i could only work with i never had that i just and there's never been a role if i could just there's one role that i've always wanted to do i almost feel like i should have that at this point but um but someone like dinklish who you just worked with that is is that the kind of actor where it's like a secretly on some kind of list in your brain you're like it'd be kind of cool to

spend a couple few months no i think after i mean yeah it's to say no it sounds like dicky but no no no it it like once i had the idea then it became really really attractive like it had to happen kind of thing it's like of course these guys with the brows playing brothers doing a movie together their heads are like super large like it just makes all the sense in the world but it didn't happen until I had the idea that it should happen. But I'm just thinking whether I should tell you this thing, but I'm not going to. It's it, you know, Spielberg, again, there's, there's, there's movies that like I did a deep dive on Spielberg. I did kind of a marathon on all Spielberg's movies when I was doing Dune at one point. I had like two weeks off and I just watched a bunch of his movies and I wrote him a long

letter and he wrote me back. It's the kindest letter. And it's a strange because that wouldn't necessarily, but there's something about that, you know, about Spielberg. I'm surprised that I haven't worked with Clint Eastwood. You know, and again, filmmakers like Clint Eastwood, he's a very simple filmmaker. There's nothing, but I'm surprised. I'm just surprised, given the history and all that kind of stuff. So, but no, man, there's new filmmakers that are going to come up and there's people that, you know, and it's interesting because you have, you have older filmmakers, OG filmmakers that we've all looked up to who are struggling right now. And that's, that's the shift.

That's a weird thing. That's a strange thing right now. Still, I'm happy when someone like Spielberg can still whip out a West Side story and someone like George Miller can do Fury Road and you're like, I mean, unfortunately, those are the anomalies, but, but yeah. Or Spike in Black Klansman, you know, after he did, um, uh, old. boy and then i remember he was asking me hey would you do this like crowd funder thing for me and and and i you know i mean that's a guy who's malleable yeah that's that's that is a born

innate storyteller that knows exactly like that's he he knows his place on this earth yeah that's tell stories and it's exactly right yeah and whether he's up here whether he's down he doesn't care It's just how do I tell a story? How do I get the money to tell a story? When's the last time you auditioned for something? Do you care? Do you do it? Does it, I mean, you don't have to do that anymore. I think, honestly, like American gangster, I think.

My son played Denzel. My 16-year-old son played Denzel. I still have the audition. And I cut it together. But yeah, I think that, yeah, that was after swimming. with the dog all night and I got home at 10 o'clock in the morning and we did that audition and sent it in and then I heard probably a couple days later. It's probably not in your light like the way your wife is built right now, but do you keep up with Marvel at all? There's too

much. I mean, I'm a geek and I can't keep up with it all. So I'll give you dispensation if you're not, but do you watch like the latest films, the latest TV shows or are you kind of like I'm fast? No, it's funny. I do and I try. You know, Loki was a good show and and Paul and Lizzie's show is a really good. I haven't seen it. WandaVision's great. Yeah. Like Wanda Vision, incredible show. Yes, I'm interested for sure, but it's, you know, it's funny that you're asking this because I literally had this thought yesterday. I was like, how interesting that they had that 10-year kind of book-ended moment. And then what? Are they going to try to create another thing? Or are they going to see what pops? Are they just involved in TV now? Not

exclusively, but you know what I mean? So it just as a kind of up from a business point of view, I, the question surfaced and it's curious to me. No one ever stays dead. You know that. Thanos may have been killed already. I feel like three or four times in a few movies, but keep the phone lines open. I will. I will. Josh, I really appreciate the time, man. You're always a fun guy to talk to it, especially when we actually have some time to dig into it all. The new show is out of range. Folks to check it out. Like, look, if you, you admire this guy's work and the swings he takes as an actor and as an artist, you'll appreciate what he's doing in outer range, which is anything but typical

and is aspiring to something cool and interesting, and it will work for me and it'll probably work for you. Thanks as always, man, and I, again, appreciate the time. I appreciate it, man. Good to see you again. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pleasure to do this by Josh Goodbye Goodbye

Summer movies Hello Fall I'm Anthony Devaney And I'm his twin brother James We host Raiders of the Lost

Podcast The Ultimate Movie Podcast And we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases We have Leonardo DiCaprio

leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Chalmay playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bugonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine,

Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis' return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast

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