Happy Sad Confused - Joshua Jackson

Episode Date: May 1, 2018

It's two Joshuas for the price of one on this edition of "Happy Sad Confused" with Joshua Jackson making his debut on the podcast! Speaking of debuts, Jackson is enjoying one memorable Broadway debut with his role in "Children of a Lesser God". It's a huge responsibility and acting challenge as Joshua details in this episode. And of course we have to go down memory lane with Joshua, From "The Mighty Ducks" to "Dawson's Creek", he opens up about it all. Plus, did you know Joshua almost played Batman for Christopher Nolan? What about a certain leading Marvel role? That and much more revealed on this fun and illuminating episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot? What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Sad Confused, Joshua Jackson on his Broadway debut, that Dawson's Creek Reunion and the comic book movies that got away. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused, My Little Old Podcasts where I talked to big old movie stars, TV stars, comedians, actors, actors, you name it. If they're cool and interesting, they're invited on this show. And that certainly fits the bill for this week's guest.

It is Joshua Jackson making his podcasts or happy, sad, confused podcast debut. I don't know if he's cheated on me with other podcasts. He probably has that jerk. No, no. We love Joshua Jackson around here. He is, as I mentioned at the outset, making his Broadway debut. He's certainly done plenty of stage work before, but this is a big step for him. I know he's very proud of this one as well he should be.

He's currently starring on Broadway in a revival of the acclaimed play, Children of a Lesser God. This is, if you know, the original film from, boy, probably 30 plus years ago. It won Marley Matlin and Oscar. It got William Hurt, a ton of acclaim. And the initial performance on stage certainly was no less lauded. And this revival is earning much acclaim for Joshua, his co-stars. It's a fascinating production. Just a little tease about what it's about is Joshua basically is playing a teacher to deaf students,

and he strikes up a relationship, a romantic relationship with one particular student of his. And it's really about communication and the lack thereof in all its forms. It's a romance, and it's a really sweet story and features not only a great performance from Joshua, but his leading lady in this is a deaf actress who's actually making her acting, debut, which is just a phenomenal thing to even think about. So talk to Joshua about a lot of things in this one, including this show, but also, of course, we go down memory lane, talk about Dawson's Creek, the recent reunion of the cast, that reunion that I think none of us saw coming, some amusing observations about that, as well as, you know, the usual ups and downs of

a career. He's very frank and forthright about the auditioning experiences he's had. He was actually up for Batman on the Christopher Nolan Batman front before Christian Bale got it. And he reveals to me in this that he was actually also up. I don't think this has been reported anywhere. He auditioned for Peter Quill, Star Ward of Guardians of the Galaxy. So, but that's all good. Look, that ended up with the right guy and Joshua is certainly forging his own path in the right way. So very happy for him.

If you're in New York, if you're planning a trip to New York, get tickets to see children of a lesser God and support Joshua. Jackson. Speaking of Peter Quill and Star Lord, there are a couple other things I want to mention before we get into the interview this week. First of all, apologies. Again, Sammy's not with me. She's actually on vacation. Sammy is probably not listening to this as she is trying to find Sam Hewin in Scotland. Sam, if you see someone that looks particularly wide-eyed and excited to see you, that's probably Sammy and just run. We know you're a runner, Sam. just run faster. So hopefully Sammy's having a good time

and she'll be back on the podcast very soon. But I did want to mention Avengers. Don't worry, no spoilers here. I'm not going to say anything. But, man, oh man, it broke all the records. And there's a lot to talk about Avengers Infinity War. I talked to most of the cast, had some really fun interviews with them

just about a week ago in Los Angeles. And we played some fun games and it's all on MTV's YouTube page. Actually, MTV News's YouTube page, I think, is the place to look for it. And I tested them in terms of their trivia. I asked how well they know the MCU. It will surprise no one listening to this podcast to know. The guy that knows MCU trivia the best

are one and only Tom Hiddleston. Of course, Tom does. He's a good student. And then we played a fun little know-your-chriss's game because they're not one, not two, but three Chris's in the MCU. So there's a lot of fun stuff. on our YouTube page and on the Facebook page. Check it out.

It's on my Twitter feed. You can't miss it. And I will be talking more about The Avengers with a guest or two in the very near future. And that's all I'm going to say about that right now. The other thing I want to mention is, if you follow me on social media, you know that I've been spending,

I spent about a week in Las Vegas, and I'm still alive. I did it. Guys, I actually made some money. I actually gambled a little bit, And I made some money, guys. Go gambling. No, don't gamble.

It's a bad idea. But in this case, it was a good idea for me. Anyway, I was in Las Vegas for CinemaCon. CinemaCon, for those that don't know, is this bizarre... It's not for the public. It's for the exhibitors. These are the theater owners. And every year, and I've been going for many years,

used to be called Show West back in the day, all the exhibitors, all the regal cinemas, AMC, et cetera. Sorry, that's my phone going off. They all gather in Las Vegas at Caesar's Palace. in the Celine Dion Theater, and they sit down and watch every studio, like, basically trots out their biggest movie stars, and they trot out their big slate for the year to come. And I always really enjoy it, besides, I'm not really, I'm not a huge Vegas guy, but I do enjoy it because it's a really good opportunity, A, to see a lot of cool shit.

They show a lot of clips and trailers and stuff that you've never seen before anywhere else, and I get to talk to a ton of people. They just bring out every movie star. So I do want to mention just because some of the trailers have hit and some haven't, like they, you know, for instance, they debuted the Venom trailer and then that went everywhere. But there's some things that they kept in the room that I got to see that you folks haven't seen yet, that I want to tease. One, again, podcast listeners probably know by now that I'm a huge, unbreakable fan. And Knight Shama on did a spoiler podcast on Split.

And indeed, his follow-up, Glass. the third in the trilogy, the ultimate sequel to Unbreakable has actually been shot guys and there is a trailer and I have seen it and it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. And it basically teams up

all characters from Split and Unbreakable and adds Sarah Paulson to the mix and it looks... I mean, I don't know what I was expecting. I wasn't expecting anything because I know Knight likes to play with genre conventions and I will say

I'm still very excited for Glass. That's coming soon. I think it's coming in, like, January of next year. Other standouts for me, I do want to mention, I mean, my girl, Claire Foy, I caught up with there, and I saw not one but two really cool-looking films. The Girl in the Spider's Nest, is it Spider's Nest? Yeah, girl in the spider's nest. This is, of course, the Girl, the Dragon Tattoo continuation, kind of a reboot.

It's directed by Fethe Alvarez, really talented young filmmaker. He did Don't Breathe a couple years ago. Before that, he did the Evil Dead remake. two genre films that I actually really, really enjoyed, and this trailer looked great. Claire looks awesome, makes Lisbeth Salander her own. I'm stoked for that

one. And I think maybe my favorite-looking film of, well, there's two. Okay, Star is Born looks great. Stars Born, starring, of course, Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga, directed by Bradley Cooper. We're going to be talking about that all through Oscar season. But Damien Chazel, back behind the camera,

his follow-up to La La Land, first man, Neil Armstrong, stars Ryan Gosling, Claire Foy, a great supporting cast, looks epic and heartfelt and emotional and yeah, it kind of like, you know, it got me excited. I was already super excited for it, but that might be the standout of CinemaCon for me, and I saw a lot of great stuff. I'm sure I'll think of other things I'll mention on future podcasts, but I wanted to mention a few of those today. Anyway, let's get to the main event today. Joshua Jackson, Star of Children of Blesser God,

and this is a great conversation. I always love talking to Joshua. We did a fun sketch a couple years back. You can look up on YouTube. I guess what would it have been called? Just look up Joshua Jackson after hours. Google that. You'll find him throwing red wine in my face.

What more can you ask for? In the meantime, remember, review, rate, subscribe to Happy, Say, Confused, spread the good word. And in the meantime, enjoy this channel. with Joshua Jackson. It's always good to have Mr. Joshua Jackson. Thank you for having me. Josh Jam, 2018.

Here we go. It's been too long, man. Congratulations on the play. You're currently appearing just to remind you in case you're not aware of it because it's an easy job to forget. It's my day off. Yeah, it all fades away.

You're currently on Broadway in Children of a Lesser God. and it's a hell of achievement for you in this amazing cast and it is your day off so thank you for spending part of it with me my pleasure so I'm always curious about that first like when I talk to actors in the middle of like a grueling theatrical run just like the day to day of it and like so this is a day off is your head partially in the place still you've been doing it a while

in different incarnations you know the I mean we just opened last Wednesday so it's all we're in the beginning phase of this run of it. Right. And this particular play is the single most demanding thing that I've ever done in my work life. So to have

it doesn't ever actually really turn off. Right. Because to learn another language, to be able to perform in that language, to be able to communicate with my cast members in that language, there's not really, there's no off space. And as I'm trying to build my fluency inside of that language,

I'm trying to use it as much as I can. And also, as much as it is the single most demanding thing that I've ever done, it is so rewarding. Yeah. Like, it's such a joyful thing. So I am exhausted, and I'm also completely, like, filled up. And so I'm curious, like, in specifics, like, what the work looks like after, you know, you did the play? Where did you do the play initially? In the Berkshires last summer. Got it. Okay. So Berkshires. And now, as you say, you're kind of like, relatively in the beginning stages of this run, but you clearly know this part backwards and forwards. you would have to.

So is it, I mean, do you have to still look at the, at the play itself? Do you have to bone up in any way? Yeah, I mean, I'm still, so because of this particular play and the amount of text that I have for this play, I mean, I basically speak through the two hours of it. There are constantly, there's a couple, there's actually, it's down to two major places that I just can't get right. So my stage manager literally printed, I think, like, nine. full poster board-sized chunks of dialogue

and just tape them all over my dressing room in between shows the other night just to try and to remind me. But then there's also, there's just little things every night and that's the beauty of live theater is that something will change or, you know, something will happen. That's actually the joy of it. But yeah, it's a constant process

of referring back to the text to put it on stage every night. It's interesting because as we start to get into what this show is about, for those that don't know, it's almost like there are two different conversations you can have about the show in that like there's the technical side of it which is fascinating and and thrilling and as you said um the challenge of a lifetime for an actor uh but then thematically it's also hugely rewarding and fascinating and a show all about communication and disconnections

in relationships or lack thereof exactly and so so last summer my experience of the of the play last summer was technical right it was just learning the language and and and trying to be able to actually perform this show. So for people who don't know, the story is a love story between a hearing man and a deaf woman. And she is a Lauren herself and also the character, Sarah, is a pure deaf woman. And so that means that if I don't speak in sign,

then we can't communicate with each other. So I had to just get that to start. This one is now more of like an actor's journey, right? Now that I know that I can actually sign the play and I can get through it, from a technical standpoint, this process has been the more enjoyable one for me, which is like, oh, right, there's a character that needs to be portrayed here as well. And so, you know, so to have that opportunity to come back to this character and to have this, like, beautiful, beautiful story and be able to dive into it in a much deeper way this time is probably the greatest joy of my work life. Yeah. So when you started to dive into this, because this goes back probably at least a year. or two in the first read-through or whatever.

The first, yeah, the first read-through would be about 18 months ago now. Okay, so it's a journey. And I know that it's a fascinating story worth retelling about how your leading lady ended up in the show. And it's remarkable a feeling. It's almost fascinating to not know going in, but we'll ruin kind of the journey that she's been on a little bit because it's just, it doesn't happen this way. Who was, she was an actor. So, yeah. So Lauren, at the point at which this journey began.

for her was a stay-at-home mom. She just had her second kid, so she was an educator and had taken a sabbatical for, just because two small children in the house, and had been teaching our director, Kenny, sign language, as he, because his journey in this is like four or five years now, and as he had wanted to put this on, because he's just a good man, wanted to, a, understand deaf culture a little bit more, but also wanted to be able to communicate. with whomever he was going to cast in his role. And so as he put the first read-through together, and we had done a play,

and he had asked me at the end of that, like, if I get this together, is it something that you'd be interested in? And I love that man and would do literally just about anything for him. Well, I guess literally in just about it. Let's go with the other. Yeah, I would literally do anything for that man.

So once he put it all together, he called me, and he's like, look, I've got this cast, and I want to do this read-through. I just can't find my leading lady yet. But I have this amazing woman who has been teaching me sign who is expressive and beautiful and fierce and has a lot of this stuff.

She's not an actress, but for the purposes of the read-through, we'll do that. So those read-throughs are broken into two days. And the first day is just rehearsal, so it's just in the company. All the deaf and hard-of-hearing cast members had interpreters in the room. So we get through the rehearsal.

We're getting towards the end of the day in the climactic scene, and this is not giving anything away in the play because no matter how much I tell you about it, it will still have impact when you see it. So that character uses her voice, her speaking voice, for the first time. And when we got to that scene through her interpreter, Lauren told the room, look, I haven't spoken out loud in 25 years. And I'm just not sure if my voice will hold up if I use it two days in a row. So do you mind if I don't speak today, but I will speak tomorrow? And all of the hearing

people in the room have that like gobsmacked moment where you're like wow i guess that makes sense but it hadn't occurred to any of us like yeah of course so we finished that get into the next day we're doing the read-through the read-through is actually going pretty well uh it's such a crusty room you know it's like investors and new york theater people so i've been in those rooms where everybody's like oh that's nice but you know the jokes are landing the things working and and we get into the second act and we're going through the second act. Everybody who had been in the room before knew that this wild card thing was about to happen.

And we get to that scene, and she unleashes this, I mean, it's hard to describe what it is. But at that point, it's something akin to a primal scream, right? She hadn't tried to form vowels or consonants in so long that there was language in there, but the power of it was not the language. The power of it was where it was, coming from in her.

And myself and every other hearing person in the room just fell out. Like I, you know, I try as best I can to not cry in public. I just started weeping. I didn't, I mean, it just came out of me. And I looked up and Kenny was weeping and all the money people were weeping and it just gets you someplace really, really intense. And it's an interesting experience for her, and we can talk about that in a second, But for all of the hearing people, it was just this electric moment.

And we finish up and white knuckled it through the last 10 pages of the reading. And I'm walking down the street with Kenny afterwards. I'm like, Kenny, man, if she can do that, then that's clearly, like, you found your woman. That is her. And so her journey in 18 months has been from powerhouse woman that she is, but non-actor, to Broadway debut in the single most important role. inside of the deaf community and the balls, frankly, to take that on and not just do it, but knock it out. I mean, she is a phenomenon.

And it is one of those nights of the theater that leaves you drained in the best possible way, probably both for the cast and for the people in the audience, right? And it was, you know, I knew this story. I'd seen the film years ago, and then Marley Matlin won the Oscar for it, and of course, William Hurt was amazing in it. So I knew the story, but it was moving in so many different ways,

Certainly that moment you spoke of was very moving. It's also moving like, I mean, I realize as I was sitting in the audience that there were many deaf people in the audience. Right. And you're performing for that community and you're probably become like a strange, you know, a friend of that community in this journey. And it must be so emotional and surreal to acknowledge that and feel that and to see that at the end of the show. To see it at the end of the show, but also it's an incredibly. that portion of it is incredibly humbling. So to be a full-grown man with my own language

and to suddenly be stripped down to being pre-verbal, right? Like the journey from not one word to being able to perform it for two hours has been incredibly intense. And the grace and the patience that Lauren and all of our deaf cast members and then the deaf community as they've come to see it have shown me as they're like, you're on a journey right now and the journey is going to be

difficult, but to be able to invite a community that I have existed around but never in through my entire life and to have that place of connection now. Yeah, it's just a tremendous joy every night. You know, it's funny. I've been reading up like people talking about the play and it's always passing to look at a play in a new time, right? Like the 2018 versus whenever it was written in early 80s, right? And something like that. No, 70, well, the first time it was performed was 78, I think it was written in 76.

Got it. So I don't know. I didn't go back to like those original reviews or contemplations about what the play was about and then the characters. But like your character, for instance, some people have like kind of taken the character to task. Like, and as they should. Right. Yeah. I mean, because he is a, you know,

it is that sort of that classic breakdown sometimes that happens in a relationship where and often for the man towards the woman in thinking they know best and thinking they you know the term mansplain recently is apropos in this in this case um this must you know teach you a little bit about communication and and reflect on your own relationships and family and friends etc uh i think i mean so they like any really good play the the things that are important about

it shift over time so when it first came out the what the revolution The evolutionary act of the play was that it was giving representation not just to a deaf woman, but to the deaf community, and showing politically how that community had been shoved off to the side. And it brought them into a mainstream conversation. So that conversation has changed for the deaf community. Technology has changed the modes of communication, and they have moved beyond the argument. argument inside of the play. But the issue of communication between people remains and will remain forever and ever and ever. We didn't solve that one yet?

Yeah, strangely. In many ways, we've kind of gone backwards. So that, which is now, so, you know, if it was a, if the play was a political act in 1980, it's a, it is a, a universal love story now, right? That space where a man and a woman with all of the best intentions and the desire and the love still can't actually see each other, right? They can't bridge that final gap between the two of them. And yeah, I mean, he is, the James Lee's character is ultimately, I think, a decent but flawed in that very knowable way, that mansplaining is the perfect term for it, right? Like, he is a guy who his heart so much in the right place, but he has this one blindness

that stops him from being able to actually be the good man that he could be. Right. Did you feel like where you were at in your career you needed something like this? Like this was a kick in the butt or an opportunity that felt overdue or... So I was having this conversation last night. So theater is not the center of my working life. But in the times in which I've done it, it's because it's a conversation that I'm having with myself that I want to work out.

And when Kenny and I did smart people, it was very much that same thing. I read that script and I was like, this is challenging, it's uncomfortable, and it's a conversation that I'm already, like, working over in my head, and I want to have the opportunity to go and tell this story. When I read this on the page, it was that same thing. I was like, okay, this is a, like, communication, lack thereof, those are, this is something that is important to me. If I had actually known how hard this was going to be, I'm not sure that I would have had

the balls to take this on, because the process of getting from the beginning to being able to perform it every night has been so incredibly intense. I mean... I would imagine you're using, like, more of your brain, just in terms of focus, than... Yeah, I mean, the level of focus is intense. Yeah. The performing, because I'm kind of performing in three different... We haven't really talked about, yeah.

Let's lay it out a little bit about so what you're doing there, because I was in terms of this too, kind of sign language versus ASL versus sign speak, et cetera. Lay it out for us a little bit. Okay, so ASL is the language of deaf people for deaf people. And it's now called, it used to be called signed English. So in the play we call it sign English, but now it's called PSC, which is pigeon signed English. So it's something in between ASL, which is its own language with its own grammar and syntax, and our language, English, just turned into signs.

Right. So I'm using PSC in the play. And then there's a third thing, which is simcomming, which is signing and speaking at the same time. Right. Which they used to try and teach to deaf children thinking that they needed to have spoken language skills, but it actually turns out that those are two entirely different avenues

inside of your brain, and it diminishes your ability to learn either language if you're trying to simcom. So the simcoming is the hardest part, and there's quite a lot of that in the play. Yeah. So are you living the life of a monk right now in terms of like, what happens after a play?

You come down off the play. Do you need a drink, a giant meal, 10 hours of sleep? There's all, actually, yes, all three of those things. So, like, rye whiskey, immediate food, and then as much sleep as I can possibly get. Because, yeah, I mean, I'm done. By the time it's over, I have adrenaline for a couple hours,

and then there's, like, just a moment that my, that it just turns off and it's off. There's no negotiating with that. I just have to collapse. This is your first time on Broadway. You've performed, but, you know, You mentioned the previous collaboration with Kenny, which had a hell of a cast.

I'm sorry, I missed that production. That was Moherchola was in that. Yeah, Mahershala, Tessa, and Anson. Amazing. Just an amazing cast. So is there, I mean, obviously there are unique challenges, and we've kind of outlined them

for this specific, this specific production. But is there discernible Broadway versus off-Broadway different? Like, how would you kind of like... I mean, from the inside, no, the pressure is the pressure. It's the specifics of this character in this play. Like, I have never taken on something as intense as this, right? And the responsibility of being the leading man of this play, also with a deaf actress, is that, you know, like, I can't break the trust between the two of us. Because she's a deaf woman, there is, if I go to a wrong place and I'm out of her peripheral vision, I just disappear for her.

I'm not there, right? And so, in a truly unique way that I have never experienced before, the trust that she has to put in me to, like, accept that I will be. be where I'm supposed to be, when I'm supposed to be there, doing the things I'm supposed to be doing, is truly unique to this. So the broader pressures of Broadway, obviously, it's literally the biggest stage you can be on, but the specifics of it, you know, that, that, the sense of responsibility that I felt last summer when we were doing the out-of-town run is the same as I feel now. Got it. So in the middle of this great moment, like a zombie that can't be killed, Dawson's Creek, it comes back. Totally.

Like, it's kind of ironic. You have to admit that it's always part of your life. But, like, in particular the last few weeks when the EW reunion happened suddenly... Which was... Okay, so inside of my life, the weirdness of coming out of my rehearsal space, I hadn't had an actual day off in, I think, like, 14 or 15 days. And, you know, the rehearsal space for this is so intense. And then my day off on a Monday, I'm, like, having my high school reunion.

At a photo shoot, it was so bizarre. You were like, did Kenny give me some peyote when I wasn't booking? Yeah, seriously. I'm like, is this really? It is one of those moments when you're like, I know that this is real life, but really is this happening right now in my life? Were you surprised it actually happened that like all, this is pretty like the core four, if we want to call you guys that, like all showed? I'm not surprised because, and I won't spill the tea on everybody,

but everybody got was there a trickle that like once one was in then kind of like it yes exactly so there was sort of like everybody kind of got bought off in their own particular ways um and and ultimately i'm glad that we did it like i was pretty resistant but uh ultimately i'm glad that we didn't yeah did the dynamic feel similar like where you left off you've all lived lives several lives since then that's the thing And it's like, it was, it's nice to see everybody, but we literally had not all been in a room. You know, I've seen everybody individually over the years, but we had not all been in a room since the last time, since the show went off. So that's 15 years or 14 years, whatever that is.

So, yeah, I mean, it's like, how your wife, how you're kids, how you're like, there's a whole journey that has happened in between. And, yeah, it was a very, it was a funny, it was a nice, a nice day, but a very strange thing. was the fear in some ways that it would reignite, like, all the questions that every journalist and every person on the street comes at you with anyway and says, oh, you guys are back together. So the reunion's going to happen again. Like, because...

I mean, thankfully, the reunion can't happen because we killed Michelle. Thank God for that choice. Exactly. Like, Kevin really put a spike in that. So, so the... The question will be there regardless forever, the rest of your life, so... And I, and honestly, the, I have such a, a fond place in my heart for that. show in that time of my life like it probably went on a little bit longer than it should have but

but it changed my life right had that show not happened I'm probably not sitting here right now doing this right so there's no part of me that that uh looks down on that time or that experience in my life but it is a long time ago and it is not a a present thing for me no of course that's a bizarre thing like I just had uh in a much different way but in some similar similar way I had Ben McKenzie in here who's on that show Gotham and I feel like you guys could start the support group because he was very open with me too like because I'm sure

you've you've reconciled it ten different ways over the years and like I mean was there like a point in the last what 10, 15 years we're saying since the show where you bottomed out in terms of like if one more fucking person says hi pacey to me on the street I'm

not going to injure them but I might punch a wall not really I mean I'm pretty thankful about the way that my life has turned out and so it's hard for me to it's the same with the Mighty Ducks thing

it like touched people in a very specific way and it like is an important moment in a lot of people's lives and the truth of the matter is that like that's kind of what we do this for right right right so So, yeah, it doesn't, no.

I mean, I don't know. If I end up, like, broken on the street, then, yeah, maybe that would be annoying. But so far as things are going so far, knock on wood, I'm good with it. Let's go back a little bit since we have some time. So I know your mom was a casting director. And so was she also your entry point into kind of, you were talking about the big trouble and little China poster having my office. That was clearly a film like, just as for me, it touched you in an important way.

But, like, was she the person that guided you through pop culture, through film and TV? Did you find it on your own? Give me a sense of where you kind of found your passion. My mom not, I mean, I guess it's core to her who she is. So, mom gave me, and we should say my little sister's in the room here. Audience one. Yeah, being an excellent, excellent little sister. But so for both of us, mom gave us.

what would probably be considered in like an inappropriately broad pop culture education because I remember being a kid and like once I got invited into like these are important movies this is important like you need to be reading this stuff that is ahead of where you are

but when you get there you're going to appreciate that I gave you this so yeah actually absolutely I mean the my film is a very important thing for my mom and thus became a very important thing for me and, you know, getting, I remember being a kid and getting invited into that space of like, okay, this is, this is real stuff now.

And, you know, I'm trusting that you're going to be able to figure this out eventually. So, yeah, I mean, that's been in the DNA since the time I was a little kid. So what were the passions in terms of actors or comics or genres or whatever? Run through a couple, like, what would have been either literally on your walls or metaphorically on your walls as a kid? The first time I understood what acting was, was actually seeing Rain Man. And we walked out and I had never seen Pacino before. We walked out and... The Hoffman, you're saying.

Oh, sorry, yeah, yeah. Clearly left a deep mark. Whoops. But so I had the first to make that mistake. So I had never seen Dustin Hoffman before because I was a kid and we walked out. And I so distinctly remember having the conversation with my mom and being like, wow, that's amazing that they found somebody who could do that. And she's like, well, no, he, and then, you know, she eventually showed me some other films of his.

He's like, that's a character that he puts on. And that was just mind-blowing to me, like, what? And, like, that's not what started off my acting love, but it was the first time that I really sort of got, like, oh, wow, you can go and tell stories. Yeah. Like, that's what this is. Like, you can go and tell stories and embody something and touch people, right? As a little kid, I was like, that is amazing. that's the craziest thing.

That human was a different human for the two hours that I was watching that movie. Did she have tips for you on auditions as a casting director? Well, auditions, not so much. So my mom was a single mother, so the beginning of my work life was as a stand-in and an extra, mostly so she could kind of know where I was on the weekends. And she was very hesitant to let me get into that place,

which I understand now as a grown person, just because the work, I mean, the environment of a set is not appropriate for children, mostly. And it was more that she didn't really give me tips on auditioning. She gave me tips on how to be in a professional space as a young person and was much more concerned that if I was going to go down that path, that I'd be a professional person in that space, which was so immensely helpful because I see it all the time

when I'm working with younger actors. you come into the space and it has its own language and it runs at its own pace and there's so much going on that it can be really off-putting and I see it throw people who are you know who who would be able to give a performance but now suddenly are shocked out of it well it throws adults too yeah I mean the whole hierarchy on a set where like you know what can I get you at any moment we'll screw up most grounded adult let alone a kid that doesn't know anybody yeah exactly like there's this yeah there's There's many different traps inside of that life that can lead you down a bad path. Was, so Mighty Ducks was, though, like the break, I guess, the first big film, right?

I mean, I had done a couple of things before that, but yeah, Mighty Ducks was the first. It was also the first time that I traveled for work, which is, sounds silly, but, you know, as a, I was a 13. So it was the first time that I left because mom had another child. and so I left and went into a work environment where she trusted me to, like, go and be responsible. Obviously, there was somebody, an adult with me, but to go and be responsible and do that outside of the family life. So that was like a major step in my life. And, I mean, you know, you've, to your credit, you've consistently worked in the last almost 30 years or so we're talking, right? It'll be 30 years, not this year, but next year. My next, so my career started on

my birthday. On my 11th birthday, I'm turning 40 this year. So not this one, but next one, I will actually be 30 years in the business. I got my first job on my birthday. Crazy. So, okay, so was there, was there ever a moment of considering a different option, like in those teen years? Was there? I mean, it's not considering. That's the nice way to put it. The business left me twice, right? So the first real crisis moment I had was at like 17. I had grown, but not grown. I wasn't a cute kid anymore. It was many, many, many years

from being anything approximating a man. And the work just dried up for me. It's actually like, I don't know what star I was born under, but the way in which my career was saved by Dawson's Creek only happened because everything had gone to shit before. And a job that I was supposed to do a year earlier got pushed off because they lost their funding, this movie called App Pupil.

And App Pupil brought me down to L.A. And while I was in L.A., I started doing some auditions, and one of those auditions was Dawson's Creek. So if half Pupil had happened when it was supposed to happen, I never would have auditioned for Dawson's Creek. I would have done a supporting role in App Pupil. And then I probably would have gone to a community college and gotten into a very different life.

So, yeah, it's happened twice. And then after Dawson's, wow, so burnt out after Dawson's that it was going to the West End and doing that play with Patrick Stewart. that, like, reminded me, oh, right, this isn't just a task. This is, this is a core part of who I am, and I love doing this. But, yeah, there's been a couple, there's definitely been a couple moments. Were there a conversation?

So that was basically, as you said, you go to the West End after six years, 120-plus episodes of Dawson's. I'm always amazed when I talk to actors from, like, you know, any era outside of this era, basically, the last five years where we went into the charmed, like, 10-episode life. It's so nice. I'm sure, yeah. It's so, so nice. Like, oh, God, I got 10 episodes this year.

Oh, I don't know how I'm going to make it through. Like, you were, I mean, we were doing 13 before Christmas. Yeah. Right? Like, yeah, it's just a different universe. And not to mention you're kind of in a bunker in Wilmington. Which was actually a good thing. Really?

Yeah, I mean, imagine. So Ben McKenzie would actually would be an interesting person to talk to about this because that show was our show, and they were doing it in L. And when they became popular, in L.A., in L.A., it is the most... Right. So if I was 19 years old and suddenly was making money and was popular and on TV and all the rest of those things, and I was doing it in a major city, it would have been a problem. Did you, it seems like you've avoided being your douchebaggiers. Like, I mean, was there a period in the Dawson's years?

Oh, looking to his sister. Oh, look at that. Like a supportive sister. Yeah. I mean, what was your low point of like, did it ever get to your head a little bit? Of course it did, yeah. From a fiasco. Oh, yeah.

But that was later. That was a grown man. You had three teen choice awards in a row, man. You can't have a level head. But, well, I mean, thankfully my, any time I went to douchebag place was pre-social media. So I got to make those mistakes on my own time and then have them fall down the memory hole. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, no, I've made some question. choices over the course of lifetime. That's kind of what being alive is, right? Like,

I am, I am, I am not ever going to be sainted. What's the, what's the greatest learning from working with someone like Patrick Stewart in that experience, David Mamet playwright, right, at West End? I mean, he's also somebody, frankly, he, you know, he's been living down Star Trek for 30 years. I mean, I was on stage with him. So that thing that he did in Star Trek is just a nervous tick of his, where he pulls down the bottom of his shirt. Right. And when he does it, And there's strike people in the audience. Everybody's like, he-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h. And this is a guy who, before Star Trek ever happened,

that had done 25 years of Royal Shakespeare. It's like one of the great actors on the planet. And, yeah, he's just got to be Captain Picard for the rest of his life so far as people are. And now he's Professor X as well. Like, the, so the thing that I learned most from Patrick I was Grace. So that was the first time that I had been on stage in, Eight years, maybe at that point.

And Patrick is one of the great stage actors. And had he wanted to make my life miserable, he very much could have. And instead, he did the exact opposite. He took the opportunity to teach up a young actor whose desire and heart was in the right place, but didn't have any stagecraft yet. And that experience of trust between an older man and a younger man of like, thank you so much for creating the space for me to learn to try and get you know catch up to you as far as I can over the course of this process yeah and then also that

it's a career not not an occasion right that you do this and then and you you know you sally forth and you do the next thing and just being able to be around him and to hear stories are like oh right you've been doing this now for for at that point you know 50 of your 60 years and I'm allowed to want that for myself, right? It took, Dawson's was the first time that I allowed myself to think that I could be a professional actor, which sounds strange because I was years into my career,

but it always felt like something that I wasn't allowed to ask for, that I wasn't, that was a happy accident. Right. And then suddenly I was doing this thing for five and a half years, I was doing, so that was my job, but it wasn't really until working, with Patrick that I was like, oh, I get to do this, should I, you know, be good and continue

to grow, I get to do this for the rest of my life. Like, this is what I am going to do with my life. It's interesting when you look, I mean, I don't know if you would agree with this, but like it's in theater and television, it sounds like, where you've really found yourself more creatively stimulated than film, generally speaking over the years. Yeah, I mean, and the truth is, like, I haven't made a film now in a couple of years. So the the places that I've been able to tell the stories that I'm most interested in have definitely, well, that's actually not fair.

I have worked on some films that have been incredibly rewarding experiences, but the bulk of my work life has been in television. Right. So, you know, at this point I've spent 15 years working on television shows. Yeah, is that right? Well, I mean, you look at 120 episodes of Dawson's,

100 episodes of fringe. Yeah, and now, whatever we are at, 40 of, 40 of, 40 of the affair. Yeah. So that's a shitload of work. And so, so yeah, I mean, that has been the place. Just by sheer number. Forged myself as a professional.

I, frankly, I've never seen this film, but I was just curious when I saw that you had worked with him, Dennis Hopper in a film, Americano, right? I don't know, any memories of working with Dennis? Yeah, sure. He, well, he, I mean, he's a fascinating man. Yeah. And at that point, he was sort of a lion in winter, right?

So to be around him, but to be around him in a space, and there was a experimental film, and to be around him in a space where he was working on an experimental film and to just hear the stories that that man had had was tremendous. And he was such an interesting, bizarre in the best possible way, but recordist of his own life. Like he had a, the things that he had seen and done are tremendous, and given the level of self-abuse that he had put himself through, the fact

he would, he would be like, oh, I remember this one time in 1962, and you're like, you do? I'll be honest, that's surprising to me. It's, you travel, where did you shoot that one? That was Spain, right? It seems like. Spain, but really truly in the Basque country. Got it. So for anybody who is, his Basque, they will understand the difference.

Right. So in the Basque country, so it was very specifically around the Basque country and the Basque, the best culture. It seems like travel has been a very important part of your life. I mean, you made a trip to India last year, right? And it seems like, I don't know, judging from someone's social media,

it seems like you enjoy everything you see on the internet. Well, I mean, maybe that's the Joshua you're trying to portray. Yeah, yeah. It's the newest mask. But yes, no, travel is very important, and that's another thing that my mom gave us when we were growing up. So my mother's

Irish. And by virtue of that we had to make that trip multiple times as we were kids and so it just expanded the possibility of what the world was and there's just so much like we are part of the first generation of people who have ever existed that can actually see the entire planet and it's all right there at your fingertips

and yeah I mean before I'm done I want to see as much as it what's on the list? Well India was big up on the list and I would actually like to go back because it's such a gigantic country so I was in the north in Rajasthan I would like to spend some more time in South America I haven't really spent a ton of time down there and other than that

what's on the list is all of it I have this idea in my head I really want to go skiing in Iran Is Iran known for its skiing? It is apparently one of the great like the mountains in Iran are some of the great mountains in the world, and because of the political climate, people don't really use them. Right. So I have this, like, wild idea in my head that I want to go skiing

in Iran next year. Are you, as you approach 40, are you gun shy about experiences that might, because you were motorcycling through India, which can't be, like, on the list of top 100 safest activities on the planet. It is probably the craziest, like, fit, it's the most physical jeopardy that I think I've ever put myself in on a moment-to-moment basis. So clearly, as you approach, your 40s, you're not yet embracing your mortality. No, no, I mean, the, no, personality-wise, that's, I hope I never make that turn, but that's just not who I am. I like to lean into things like that.

Are you, are you surprised, like, are you dealing with the same shit you've been dealing with for 20 years as you hit a big number, like 40, or do you feel like you have made some major strides in the last decades? I'd like to think that I've made some. 30 was a big one The turning the corner on 30 was actually Pretty tremendous And I, you know, before it, everybody says

Oh, it's a big birthday and I didn't quite get it But everything just got so much easier After 30 Yeah And so I don't know what 40 is going to be But yeah, I mean, the The core issues that you deal with as a human being I think those are the core issues that you carry with you

For the rest of your life But it's just so much nicer to be this age Than it was to be like 22 was hard Yeah 39 is not that hard Yeah. Is there, would you consider yourself ambitious as an actor now? Have you always been? Yeah, absolutely.

Do you feel like, I mean, are you the kind of person that like an experience like this makes you want to raise the bar and decide like what's, like can you envision what it would be as challenging in this as this as this? From a technical standpoint, I'm not sure that I'll ever find something that's as challenging as this role. So whatever comes next will be a letdown in that. way but yeah I mean it's part of the reason like I said the when I came off fringe I was again burnt out like the those network TV shows are just hard like physically that labor is difficult yeah and and also creatively it's difficult because you're putting so much stuff out there and you're doing it at such a pace that you're never really ahead of the work you're always you're always fighting to

keep your head above water right which is a kind of a heartbreaking place to work from right so to the reason why other than the fact of the script was so good, but the reason why I took the affair was because it was a manageable amount of work, it was a supporting character, and it was really well written. So I was like, okay, this is something I can go and see if I'm any good, honestly. I was having that moment again. I'm like, I'm not sure that I'm a very good actor. So to take that on was just something, I just needed to prove to myself again whether I thought I was any good at this job. Right. And that's why I took smart people, and that's why I dove into this, not quite understanding what the requirements

we're going to be. But yeah, I mean, I would hope that we're having this conversation in another 10 years and I'm still, you know, whatever the thing is, that I'm finding something that keeps me engaged because there is a way to do this job cynically, but I don't ever want to get to that place. And, you know what, to be fair, I have done it sometimes. Like, you just get through and you're just doing the work, but it's so much more satisfying when you're fully engaged. This reminds you of the good way it can be.

Yeah, exactly. do you um it sounds like you're reasonably self-critical i think hopefully in a positive way using it for good every jackson in the room shakes their head nods yep there's no there there's no greater critic of me than me did it you know uh the the the the sad reality of the internet is that like when you're up for a big role it will haunt you forever so like batman for instance was one that you they made the right choice sadly well never know i mean yes he was amazing obviously Amazing, yeah. What was, do you remember, like, did you get to put on the bat suit for Mr. Nolan?

I put on the bat suit, I put on, I can't remember, I didn't have nipples, so it wasn't that one. But I did put on the bat suit and I have, but what sucked about that is I kind of had the understanding that I wasn't going to get that job, but they wouldn't let me take pictures because, obviously, but I was like, just for myself, I really have to have just one photo in the bat suit, like, I just, like, this is happening. I'm in the bat suit right now doing the thing

and you're going to make me not be able to show this to anybody but yeah so I did put on the bat suit that's so funny I can't now I'm blanking someone I've had in here put on the Superman costume and went into the bathroom and took photos of himself because he was just like I have to document this

fair I wish that I had done that because I was in the bat suit for half a day navigating a space doing a scene on camera as Batman and that was awesome there's something about the bat suit make you do the growl do the like husky voice thing but the growl that was new right the voice was his his addition and i nolan had the idea because he was asking everybody like the voice needs

to shift between bruce wayne and batman but uh you went to a high pitch like squeaky thing which might have been in retrospect of bad call yeah i think it was a choice and maybe maybe the wrong choice yeah um and with star trick one that you thought was a possibility captain kirk was apparently, but that led to fringe, it seems like, your audition for JJ. Yeah, I knew JJ, maybe actually, I'm trying to remember the timing on that. I knew JJ from before because he had been on the WV at the same time, so I knew him sort of at the beginning of his TV license, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had known him, but yeah, maybe it was the audition.

I can't remember whether, oh, yeah, no, it definitely was because then I had to go and, yeah, so maybe, maybe. Are you, what's your appetite as a consumer of film? like franchise stuff like is you have a favorite kind of those ilk or are you i'm a comic book nerd in my heart of hearts so all of those films i will go and see but i feel it's funny we were having this conversation last night like marvel has turned a corner in the the kinds of movies that they're making or i guess they've kind of realized that they're allowed that that superhero is not a genre that right it's it can encompass everything everything right and so as soon as

as soon as they started expanding what they like allow themselves to do those movies have become awesome it's true i was thinking about that too the last year if you look at thor from well i would started at the first guardians of the galaxy movie that's when they realized they could take risks and and reap rewards be awesome right like i walked out of that guardians i was like man and i had different for that one too there's another one where they chose the right guy but i was like dude that kicked ass that was amazing in the last thor movie and now black panther like what i know i mean Black Panther is legitimately a great movie

not a great superhero movie just a great movie and the last Thor was mind-boggling arguably the best comedy of last year would I would found this story yes and because they have that ridiculous budget and that director has

an imagination and he's willing to like the colors that they use like taking these themes of all the stuff that we grew up with like it was just such an imaginative movie rather than, you know, a lot of times when you're dealing in franchise world, because there's so many cooks in that kitchen, it becomes the like the weakest possible T version of that film. And Marvel has just gone, they're like, nope, we're going

in the opposite direction completely. Well, they're realizing that 19 films in, you can't, I guess you could keep serving up the same thing. Exactly. Like corporate logic is that like, we'll just keep on making this diminishing thing until it dies. Yeah. But I am not, I'm not party to these conversations but somewhere inside of that they were like we're going to we're going to grow some big brass balls and just try some stuff right like yeah it's just craziness that that inside of a massive billion multi-billion dollar corporate world they were like what's the most unlikely thing that we could do okay we're going to do like a neon carnival 1980s retrospective in space with a character that has already been established totally and and just see what happens like

Let's just make it neon. It's going to be neon. I'm sure a focus group arrived at that. You're right? No. Right. Yeah. Are you fine to be a fan of it at this point?

You said even as recently as a few years ago, you had a Star Ward audition. Like so, do you, are you still? Well, the, I'm kind of aged out of. Don't say that. Well, sadly, I mean, it's true. Like, you know, I've been working long enough. I didn't catch on to the superhero train. I just think I've kind of aged out of tights.

No. Don't say that. Well, thankfully, you have not aged out. of wonderful performances like the one you're delivering right now on Broadway, Children of a Lesser God, what a segue. No, honestly, congratulations on it, man. It's a special piece of work, and you should enjoy this ride because these don't come as you, well, know, they don't come very often.

Everybody should check it out if you have the opportunity, if you're in New York, and you're welcome anytime, man. Good to see you. Good to see you, too. Thanks, buddy. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

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