Happy Sad Confused - Kaitlyn Dever, Vol. II (THE LAST OF US spoilers!)

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

SPOILERS for THE LAST OF US season 2, episode 2! Kaitlyn Dever joins Josh to talk about her long history with THE LAST OF US, nearly playing Ellie, getting cast as Abby, her personal loss while filming, and shooting "the scene". #happysadconfused #joshhorowitz #thelastofus #kaitlyndever UPCOMING EVENTS! Tony Gilroy in NY 5/14 -- Tickets here! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Quince.com/happysadco⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for 365 day returns and free shipping! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming only on Disney Plus. You know, Neil and I would keep in touch throughout the years and, you know, but I never, yeah, I hadn't seen him in a long time. And I was like, oh, I guess it's to play Abby. That's really interesting. And I didn't know that they had like, also, it was sort of like a meeting to talk about they want me to play the it's there's no other lesson like I thought I was going to read or do a thing and it was just like no we want you to play abbey and that was also like really shocking to me too I was just like what's going on what's happening prepare your ears humans happy sad confused begins now hey guys it's Josh welcome to another edition of happy

sad confused last of us fans this one's for you Caitlin Dever, Abby herself, is the guest today. That's right. Caitlin Dever's back on the podcast, one of our great young actors out there. And not only that, but she is starring in an iconic show and an iconic role. Abby in The Last of Us, season two. This conversation coming up in just a bit is going to cover what happens in episode two. So spoiler warnings. If you have not seen that episode, this episode is probably not for you. If you do not know the events of the second game, The Last of Us, this episode might not be for you. I'm going to warn you guys again, but there I said it, choose wisely.

Before we get to that, a new event to announce, very excited to say. I'm a big Star Wars fan. I'm sure a lot of you guys are, so we're going to dive into Andor, May 14th with Tony Gilroy. Tony Gilroy, brilliant writer, brilliant director, brilliant showrunner for Andor. baby. It's going to be a live event, nice second street while in New York City. And it's going to be, I believe it's literally like the day or two right after the finale of season two of Andor. So there's going to be a lot to talk about. If you love Star Wars coming out, tickets are available. They just went on sale. The link is in the show notes, all that fun stuff.

As always, early access, the first announcements of all these things. Bonus materials, all that jazz, patreon.com slash happy, say I confused is your friend. Please try to support us there if you can. It just helps us make more cool stuff over here. Okay. I'm going to throw to our main event, which is Caitlin Dever. So Caitlin is, I've always been a fan of Caitlin. She's just like, she just can do everything as far as I'm concerned. Whether it's Book Smart, Detroit, Ticket to Paradise.

I mean, you know, unbelievable apple cider vinegar earlier this year on Netflix. If you haven't seen that, check that out. She can do drama. She can do comedy. She can sing. Big, big fan, if you can't tell. And now, with a really juicy role on The Last of Us, you guys know, Abby is a choice part, a controversial figure in the game and the series.

As far as I'm concerned, and I've seen a bit of this new season, she is amazing, as I would expect she would be in this. And I will also say this conversation, in addition to covering spoilers. for episode two in particular is a very open and emotional conversation. Caitlin lost her mom a little over a year ago, and the timing of that very sad, tragic loss is insane, as you'll hear straight from Caitlin occurring right around when she shot this, actually, this episode and a scene in particular. I'll let her tell her. the story. But so yeah, this is, you know, a fun episode at times, but it's also an emotional

episode to hear Caitlin tell that story. So I want to give you guys a heads up on that. But I'm very proud of this conversation. I always love catching up with Caitlin. She's a world away in Australia shooting the new Godzilla King Kong movie. So I'm very appreciative of her taking the time out from that hectic shoot to come back on the podcast. Okay. Spoiler warning again. I'm going to keep saying it. The Last of Us. Here we go. Caitlin Deaver and I talking all things, episode two, watch it, or this might ruin things for you. I'm pointing at you. If you have watched that episode, if you don't, the events of The Last of Us 2, proceed ahead and enjoy this conversation with Caitlin Deaver. Look, she's halfway around the world. We have crappy internet, but none of this is

going to stop the love I have per Caitlin Deaver her performances on apple cider vinegar and The Last of Us. It's good to see you, my friend. How are you doing? It's so good to see you too. I'm doing all right. How are you doing? It's been far too long since I've had the real thing. Yeah. Well, you saw me. We saw each other very briefly at The Last of Us premiere. You were threatening to stab me in the eye. Oh, yes. But that wasn't. But in a formal way. Yes. This is the formal deep dive. Welcome back to the podcast. You are, it should be said, you're back in Australia and you are, you're doing a, checking another thing off the bucket list, I would expect. You're just getting started on a ginormous Godzilla-Kin-Kong movie. How's it going?

It's going well. Again, I feel like I'm in such spoiler territories lately. I can't say anything about anything. But yeah, we started shooting. not too long ago and it's been yeah just really exciting new you know a totally new

sort of world genre that I kind of haven't done this like you know type of action-packed big big movie like this before so it's yeah it's great

I love everyone I'm working with and yeah I can't stay away from Australia right so you obviously you obviously shot Obviously, you shot apple cider vinegar there. You're practically, you're practically a Hemsworth by now, basically. I mean, I feel like I'm a Hemsworth, yeah.

I'm a brother. I'm a Hensworth, brother. You're the lost Hemsworth. Yeah. Are you shooting in the same part of, I mean, Australia is not exactly the smallest country on the planet, but are you staying around where you were for apple cider vinegar or are you exploring new parts of the country? New parts, where, like kind of where I was.

We shot ticket to paradise on an island, or most of the shoot was on an island. Oh, right. Did that one too? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is the third project I've done here now. Crazy. Take me with you. I'd like to escape myself.

Is there a room for another one? Yeah, I'd love to take you. I mean, I'm high on those Delta miles, you know what I'm saying? you're beyond my silver medallion status i have a feeling it's so far you are really so far when you're here it's crazy you can really feel it too but it's um it's such a beautiful place but yeah i'm in a similar area that i was when i did take to paradise apple cider vinegar was shot in melbourne which i also really enjoyed it's a lot like like a mixture between l.a and new york gotcha got Okay. So let's start by doing, let's just go right into it. Let's start talking last of us. I've seen a bunch of episodes. I've already put in some spoiler warnings for folks. We are going to get into some definite spoiler territory. You guys have had a few days to see episode too. So we'll get into some of the amazing pivotal events in that episode. But before we even get into that stuff, educate me. I know this, but tell me how deep the gamer roots are within you. Not even just for The Last of Us, but did you grow up generally a gamer?

not really honestly i had like you know mario super mario or whatever it was super the one on the the gray console thing yeah yeah super mario brothers or mario car there's there a lot of mario yeah i play mario cart with the we right um i think this is really showing my non-gamer roots I'm like 20 years older than you You're sounding really ancient right now Just so you know I mean Well I had that console

I think it was like a Like it was passed down Like I think it was my dad's or something Let us play with it But anyway I've played like my dad is the gamer Right And I've played like an occasional

You know PS4 game with him along Throughout the years And then Um, when the last of us came out, my dad got it and we played it together. And then throughout playing that game and then there was talk about the last of us becoming a movie. And then I met Neil Druckman a couple of times, um, to, to potentially play Ellie when

they were making a movie. And then once that, you know, that obviously as, as movie making goes, it's sort of, disappeared for a long time. And then The Last of Us 2 came out, and I played like halfway into playing Abby. And then I just kind of, I was like, Dad, this is so I can't. I'm not a good gamer also.

I'm really not, but I can appreciate, especially a game like The Last of Us, because I've played other games with him, and there's nothing that really compares to The Last of Us. And I think that that's why I was so, like, drawn to it was because it felt like, oh, this is a different game that he's playing.

This feels like I'm like watching a film or something. And the story line is so beautiful and complex. And it, yeah, it just stood out to me when I was playing it with him. But yeah, the second game, I just, it's so long. And it's also, I've just not good at playing. Tell me that. Okay, so tell me, go back to me for a second. on those early conversations you had with Neil.

Like, did you allow yourself? I mean, this is kind of the thing, you know, actors get invested in characters, even through conversations or auditions, and you let your mind race and you start to like almost imagine yourself in the role. Like, how far down that road did you get in your mind about playing Ellie in a Last of Us film? I think it was, you know, so exciting to even be a part of that kind of conversation when I was that young. I think I was like 16 or 17.

And, you know, I think it, yeah, just really felt like a big deal. And what I remember, like the highlights of that time were just like going to naughty dog headquarters, I guess, and walking around with Neil and him showing me how the game is made. And I, like, really remember all of those details. And he even showed me at one of our, I think we only really, like, in the grand scheme of things, I think we only had, like, two meetings.

And the second meeting, I really remember him showing me, like, parts of The Last of Us 2, when it was, like, early, early days of getting made, which was pretty crazy. and he told me what happens, which was also crazy. I've been sitting with this secret for so long. Basically, Neil and you have known this for 12 years. So that was just, yeah,

I've been holding sin my entire life. No, but I, yeah, I, I never, like, had the role of Ellie. It was never like, okay, it was like a for sure thing. But I was just excited. to know him and and learn from him and and we did one table read and um and then that's all that really how I mean that's that's it that's really like the extent of where it got I think in the

process yeah the it's really just like a couple meetings with him and you know sort of months months long conversations about oh is this going to happen is this not going to happen obviously didn't end up happening but I was just thrilled to know Neil because then not long after I knew that the movie wasn't happening he

asked me to do Uncharted 4 which was a super cool experience but yeah it was it was never like I never had the role or it was never like ever an official like none of it was official but it still was yeah it was still a part of my life

and it was still like you know We would talk about it at the dinner table and, you know, with my family. And it's been a part of my life for so long. And it was something I always thought about. And then when the show came out, I just thought Bella and their portrayal of Ellie was just so brilliant. And the show is so brilliant. I was like, wow, it really ended up, you know, it's so special. I was hoping it would do something and get made one day.

and then for it to come full circle back into my life, it really just, yeah, it was pretty surreal. So when I had Craig on the podcast, he's been on the podcast a couple of times most recently for the new season, and we talked about your casting. And to hear him to say it, he says that's kind of towards the end of the run of the first episodes of the first season,

he and Neil started to have the conversation, okay, it's time to talk about Abby. And your name came up, and it was sort of one of these things where it was like, they all were saying, Caitlin, and then that was kind of self-evident. If everybody was thinking that way, this is the way to go. Is that your, is the timeline drive with your memory? Like, was the show on the air when Neil and Craig came to you?

The show was, the show was on the air. It had, it had finished. I think I had seen the whole show. I'd seen the whole season. Um, yeah, I'd seen the whole, like, all of season one. And I didn't hear a peep from them about any of that. So the fact that it was happening when while they were still shooting it, it's kind of crazy. I didn't not hear a word from them.

And then I, I think it was. Did you have in the back of your brain like Abby at this, like had your mind shifted towards Abby? Not at all. No. I was just like, shows out, cool. You know, it's awesome. I did a great job. I genuinely was just like a big fan of the show.

I had no clue that I was even being considered for Abby at the time. And then it was, I got a meeting set with Neil and Craig. And, you know, Neil and I would keep in touch throughout the years. And, you know, but I never, yeah, I hadn't seen him in a long time. And I was like, oh, I guess it's to play. Abby that's really interesting and I didn't know that they had like also it was sort of like a meeting to talk about they want me to play with it's and there's no there wasn't like I thought I was going to read or do a thing and it was just like no we want you to play Abby and that was also like

really shocking to me too I was just like what's going on what's happening and I and I distinctly remember the timeline being around I ran into Bella at the Met And I introduced myself and I just, I was like, hey, I have a meeting or no, she, like, I think it was, no, I said I had a, I had a meeting with Craig and they were like, yeah, we've been, we've been, they told me. Like, okay. Everybody knows about this from me. Was anybody going to tell me? However, I was talking about it. So, yeah, I had my meeting, and I was like, oh, oh, it's great.

Yes, sign me up. There was no, like, hesitation. It was just like, you know, it was a really nice meeting. We just were, you know, Neil and I were catching up. I was getting to know Craig, and they were just, you know, telling me all about how the first season went, and I was so, so game. it. It was like kind of a dream come true. But yes, very, yeah, again, very, very surreal. I was like, whoa, I guess this was always like, like meant to me in my life in some sort of way.

It just found its way back to me in a really interesting way. So cool. So do you remember what you thought of Abby playing the game initially and how that judgment's connection or lack of has evolved now having gone through the motions of some of the seeds that she's done in this new season? Yes. Yes. I remember being just as shocked as obviously I think everyone who's played this game was when they first played the game.

I was just, I couldn't. I think it was like my dad was like, here, he got to give me the controller. He had already done, he had already played that scene. He's like, here you go. I couldn't. I was so shocked because she does just sort of come out of nowhere. And I remember, yeah, I remember being really heartbroken.

I'm like, okay, how do we, how will we go on? You know, how do I go on? And then all of a sudden you're playing is Abby, and it's a real, like, shift in a point of way. view in like a really interesting way because for a while I was like you know the way it's cut in the game like the scene happens and then all of a sudden you're playing is this as this person that kind of resembles Ellie to me like it that that was my first reaction I was like is this Ellie is this like a what is this and it took me a while to figure out obviously that it's not

Ellie and then it's Abby, but I just, I really loved how they did that in the game, um, where those two characters are kind of really like mirrors of each other in so many ways. Right. During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute. This September lease a 2026 Xe 90 plug-in hybrid from $599 bi-weekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event. Conditions supply, visit your

local Volvo retailer or go to explorevolvo.com. Calling all book lovers, the Toronto International Festival of Authors brings you a world of stories all in one place. Discover Five Days of Readings, Talks, Workshops, and More, with over 100 authors from around the world, including Rachel Maddow, Ketourou Isaku, and Kieran Desai. The Toronto International Festival of Authors, October 29th to November 2nd. Details and Tickets at Festival of Authors.ca. You talk about the circuitous nature of this and how it kind of came to you when it did, and, you know, know, there's something about fate in there, et cetera. You could, you could say it also should be said. And, you know, you have my profound contolences about the loss of your, your mom that occurred really right around by timeline. I think right around when you were starting to shoot this series. And look, I mean, anybody that knows anything about Abby knows that this is a character motivated by by grief, by profound grief. And how she reacts to that grief is, is, uh,

questionable, but it's real. I don't know. I mean, give me a sense of like, I mean, I don't even know what the question is, except that like you're going through all of this real stuff at the time that you're dealing with this extremely, I don't know, resonant character,

I would imagine to your real life circumstances. Yeah. I, yeah, it was such a, When I think back on the time, it was like such a, like, so much of it is so blurry. I think I have talked to a lot of, like, a lot of my friends who have also lost someone very close to them. They're, I feel like we all share that experience of just like total fog and, like, memory loss in a lot of ways. but leading up to the shoot I think I was probably I can't remember like what time of year it was

if we were using the Met as a starting point from that point I don't know it's like what is it May I think yeah so it was it was a year before I shot and ended up starting the shoot. So what was cool is that my mom got to know about me getting the role. She got to be a part of those conversations. She was so excited about it. Like, she was really, like, I could, it was one of those moments, like, where I could really feel like my parent was, like, very proud of me.

And it was, I can, like, it's a feeling I go. back to a lot and a memory that I have of just, you know, that I, I, I hold, I hold it very, very close to my heart, that memory and just, and, and remember it very deeply. And then, yeah, her health started to decline around December and then January, like mid-January, I had to go, this is all very confusing, but January, I had to finish, like, my last, 10 days on apple cider vinegar. So I was shooting apple cider vinegar from October to January of 2023, 24. Whatever year I thought this is the last of us, which was last year. Your excuse for having a fall because this is a lot. No, but the timeline is like, yeah,

it was pretty just, yeah, it was just a whirlwind of an, like a, just a, just a whirlwind of an, like, a, just a whirlwind of the time. But I remember going from apple cider vinegar to then like having to go prep in Vancouver for like three days. I do fittings and stuff. And then I went back and I was in the hospital with my mom. We were out February. And I was having to go back up to Vancouver a couple of times. I randomly asked for days off.

or not days off but just like I wanted to fly home for Valentine's Day weekend and that was when she passed and we were all together and all home and I you know yeah

and we had her funeral and then three days after her funeral I had to fly back up to shoot to my first day which was the scene what it was me big that was my first day on set um which you know i had a whole monologue

you know just it was just so i i can't like thinking back on that time uh i can't even comprehend you know where i was where i was at even now or i hadn't processed anything I was just sort of floating through sets, through life. And, but there was a moment in time where I was just like, I can't, I can't go, like, I need my family to stay here. I'm scared to go up there by myself and, you know, do this thing that my mom was so excited about. And it was, I remember it being a really tough moment.

and like I don't I don't know if I can do it I don't know if I have it in need to do it and I think it was thinking about specifically there was one moment when my mom was still in the hospital and I

was up in Vancouver and I was doing like combat training and they would put these like the stunt team would put together these really cool edited like iPhone videos of like a compilation of all of the things I was learning how to do and they put it to this like really

intense like cool music and I of course snuck it to my parents I probably was not allowed to do that but I sent it to them and um my my dad told me that it which you know she said that was the coolest thing I've ever seen it was just like a simple little thing and simple video but like I I kept going back to that and just like how I you know sort of I did all of this for her like I did all of it to make her proud and so that's what kept me going and and I can't even begin to tell you how taken care of I was by this this group of wonderful people I they were so respectful they were so accommodating they ended up like flying my family out to come and stay with me and

And it just, like, the whole, just, it's such a wonderful group of people. And I remember talking to my dad about it. And I was just like, man, I really, I just love all of these people so much and how sweet they all are and how sweet they've been. And my dad was like, I don't know if it were any other job what it would have been like because I, you know, if the timing had worked out and you were in a different job, like, I don't know how this would have, just don't know how this would have. just don't know how this would have been for you but the fact that it was you know they were all so um like caring and kind and and supportive of you know me and just uh yeah i can't i can't even really believe it i can't even really put it into words how how they how they made me feel and how taking care of i felt so i did not i did not realize the time on that that that's i'm blown

away. I mean, and I really connect on a number of levels. I mean, a totally different way. Like, my dad passed in 2020, and I remember, I'm so sorry. I appreciate that. And I remember, like, not, I did a Zoom interview that night with George Miller. And I didn't want to cancel it because, and I remember talking to like, you know, you're, you're in that other fugue state. And I remember talking to him about, like, how, like, a lot of what I do is because of the love of film that my dad had and how, like, I felt like honoring him in a way to continue to do the work. And so I, in my own small way, I, I hear you and, you know, wanting to carry on the work and, and, and, and finding your happy place, which is not just family, but the work you do.

And I'm so happy that Neil and Craig created a safe place for you in that, in that circumstance. That's crazy. So come, so that scene, okay, so obviously by now everybody knows. Now we're there. Everybody knows what that scene is. So I feel like we're both like, can we even say what happened? We can say what happened because people by now know. We can say it.

Yeah. So obviously this is Joel's death and it is just such a traumatic event to watch in both the game and in this remarkable scene between all of you in the show. What happens after? Like, is there a period of, I don't know, do you and Pedro get drinks? Like, is there like a morning period? Just give me a sense of the aftermath of shooting that remarkable sequence. Oh, the aftermath was, what did we do?

I mean, I think it just, you could sense the shift, I guess, and really, like, the crew, you know, behind the Video Village, because I was able to watch, like, I was able to watch the monitor for the Ellie Joel moments at the very end of that, that whole sequence. And that was really like, that really, really, really got me. And you could feel, yeah, you could feel a shift. it's a lot of the same crew from season one and they just spent so much time.

I mean, you know, Bella and Pedro have such a beautiful relationship that is so, it's just really a special thing to sort of get to witness in person and see that love in real life. It really, it's really real. and it just was just so heartbreaking and I think yeah it was just sort of you could feel this like end of an era in a lot of ways

you know for the characters specifically in their journey together in the show and in story but also just this sort of family that they had created and I definitely know what that feeling feels like And for him to now not be a part of the story is definitely, you know, heartbreaking for so many reasons.

But it was, it was really sad. That's, I, I, I, I, they only did it a few times that last moment that they, you know, she just holds his body and that it just, it just. It was really intense to watch. For you as an actor. Yeah, they just did a beautiful job. Yeah. Like, are you able, like, you know,

when I was watching that scene, like, when the tear comes for you, like, is that, like, something that, like, just happens, or is it like, are you in control of your own instruments enough that, like, I am going to, I want the tier to come at this point? Can you do that?

Or is it just sort of like, if it comes, it comes? I feel like it's so different each job. Yeah. On every day, I feel like it's so different on every job. But that, like doing that in particular, yeah, I just, I, I, the writing was so good that. And I, we had to, I had to do that chunk of, like, the big monolole. long part, like a lot. I had to do it many times because there were so many different angles to get. And I wanted to, you know, do it, you know, full on every single time. And I just remember

it feeling so real and remembering sort of those emotions and those feelings being so raw for me that I really, you know what, I will say this too, like those two days, I just really felt my mom, and I don't know if you have this experience at all, but I just really felt her in like a big, bigger way. And I felt like I was being sort of carried through. And I was just sort of allowing whatever there was um i was just allowing for that to to happen and and um sort of just going with the flow and when the when the dialogue is that good it's sort of just you just sometimes just have to let that breathe and um but yeah the the the tears i feel like they were coming at different times every time, every day.

I can imagine. Sure. No, I get it. Yeah. But that scene was shot over two days. That's quite a head space to be in. That's crazy. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. When your investors, customers, and workers demand more from your business, make it happen with SAP. The AI-powered capabilities of SAP can help you streamline costs, connect with new suppliers,

and manage payroll, even when your business is being pulled in different directions. To deliver a quality product at a fair price, while paying your people what they're worth, too, so your business can stay unfazed. Learn more at SAP.com slash uncertainty. so we're taping this before obviously people at the world has seen the episode like are you going to be going on on reddit like on social media because people are going to talk yeah well you know how can how am i supposed to just i'm just going to put my phone away just going to set it aside and i'm going to watch Gilmore girls for the weekend no i'm certainly going to be

you've looking at it all. And, yeah, I can't not stay away from it. I mean, are you curious? I mean, like, and Craig said this to me, like, you know, obviously he casts you as Abby, not just for this part of the arc, but where she goes and how she does, you know, develop and turn into a bit of a protagonist. And that's quite a journey considering what we see in episode two. Um, talk to me a little bit about, I don't know, what that journey has been like so far for you and what's to come in the next season.

And, I mean, that's a challenge to start at this place, essentially, of betraying an audience and murdering in cold blood, the most beloved actor slash character on television. And then to somehow, somehow earn the trust of an audience and empathy. Right. No, I've definitely thought about that. definitely cross my mind no um i think that the way that they have structured the show so far is obviously different from the game in that i feel like we're given a little bit more context to abby and who she is where she comes from what drives her in the game we don't get any of that so it's It's instantly, and I was even just like, who is this?

And this is just like an awful person that's come in and killed Joel. And with the show, they've definitely set it up in a different way, which I think is helpful for exactly what you're referring to, which is just allowing people to see what is driving her and be able to see a little bit more how that grief is sort of the thing that leads her to, I guess, getting to that goal that she sets for herself in episode one. And I think that that is important for her journey.

And again, you know, when I was prepping for the role, you know, you start to really think about everything that that makes up who she is and again, how deeply angry she is. and she's but she's also a very broken person and but when I was doing the prep

and really contemplating how I wanted to you know play her sort of dawned on me that like she's not all that different from a lot of the other people in this world and in this game in the world of this game

you know so I think people will get to see that and recognize that as this you know the season goes on um but yeah i i i i don't know what you know i've yeah we just got picked up for season three so i it's a it's a whole so yeah it's a it's a long journey ahead i'm excited for it is there now that it's official i mean not that i mean obviously of course there was going to be another season but it's official yeah um uh is there specific scene part of the character moment that you're excited that you haven't covered yet from

the game that you hope is covered in what Neil and Craig come up with in season three? Oh, gosh. I mean, yeah, I have no idea what their plan is at all, really. I have no idea how they're going to structure anything. I guess I'm just, yeah, I'm excited to like get to some like perhaps like more flashback stuff that could be exciting and also get into like more Abby and Owen dynamic. I think that is a really, you know, interesting part of the game. But I have no idea what I have planned. And I'm also scared to say anything.

That's okay. It's okay. It's scared now. Don't be scared. Don't be scared. This is a happy place. I will say, I mean, I alluded to the fact that Australia is a connection for you, not only from Ticket to Paradise, but Apple Side of Renegger, which we never got a chance

to catch up on, but was an exceptional performance, an amazing, and weirdly a throughline connective, I mean, you could argue this is the year of Caitlin Dever playing these kind of questionably morally ambiguous hero. anti-heroes. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you're asking your agents to pursue. I said, hero, anti-hero. That's the year of 2024, 2025. Honestly, questionable. But it must feel. Yeah. It must feel, it must feel, you must take a certain satisfaction. I know you've talked a lot about just from a purely technical standpoint, the accent, insane.

And also not to mention, like when I was watching it. When my wife, I was, like, looking at all the other actors, I'm like, I think she's the only non-Australian. Like, that's balsy to be, like, in the middle of it, having to do that accent where everyone else is like. So do you feel a little bit of achievement unlocked between apple cider vinegar and the challenges of the last of us, these last two gigs? Yeah, I certainly do. I feel like it definitely feels like both of these, both the last of us and apple cider vinegar. I feel like I've tapped into like maybe another level of intensity. And I think that that is something I've always, you know, I want to continue.

I think I've told you this on a past pod. but just like, you know, I'm always wanting to challenge myself. And so the fact that I was able to do two very intense shows where I was really using like a whole, like totally different muscles, like within the same year is really just like, yeah, I feel so lucky. I was truly shocked when the team at CSON with apple cider vinegar came to me with this role. I thought that they sent it to the wrong person. I thought that sent it to the wrong email. I genuinely thought like, okay, I don't understand. I've never done.

Like, it's always been, like for every role that I've ever done, it's always been, well, you haven't done that thing before. So you can't get this role because you have a. done the thing before. Right. So I'm like, I've never even attempted to do an Australian accent. I remember Billy Lord when we were doing ticket to paradise. She would always like tap into her. She's very good at doing the accent too.

I was too like, I couldn't. I was never doing it with her. She was like when she saw the show, she was like, why didn't you ever do the Aussie accent with me? Because I didn't know how the time. But no, it, it, yeah, it was. such a challenge and yes it was so scary to be the only

American on the job like I think that's why I was the most nervous because I just know everyone's going to be judging you know I knew you know I started learning the accent probably like three months before I actually started shooting and oh my God

I everyone's going to be listening to every single yeah every single little thing and I think I don't know how I I really don't know how I how I got through it but I know that like I had an amazing like amazing dialect coach named Jenny Ken she was with me every single day and that's how I got through it and then I was just like super like hard on myself And I think because, I don't know, I just heard everything that I did wrong for each, like, take that we did. I just, I could, I could only hear what I did wrong. And so she, like, we would go in a little corner and we'd go over, you know, like little tiny words within sentences.

And I just wanted to perfect it because it was just like I just felt like it was a huge responsibility. And I just had, I felt like I needed to get it right. I really didn't want to mess it up. You definitely did not. And beyond just the accent, it's just, yeah, a remarkable performance. And you told me before, I remember on the last pod that auditions are always terrifying. The good news is it sounds like from these latest roles, a little bit less auditioning. They're just saying, you can do this.

We want you to do this. What was the last, have you had any terrifying auditions in the last six months or year that have traumatized? you? You know, actually, no, I haven't. Oh, gosh. I've been like wanting, you know what? I was like, I hate audition. And then I've been really kind of like craving an audition.

Massacist, yeah. I think between the strike and then doing, like, once you're actually shooting something, you don't get auditions. And so, like, from, you know, yeah, I feel like it's just worked out, like, timing-wise, it didn't, I haven't gotten an audition because I just, yeah, I got, I was shooting Apple Cider and then I was shooting The Last of Us, and then I kind of took a little, like, break, but I do kind of, like, I want to go back in, like, actually go into an audition room, like, not do a Zoom audition, I want to go, like, into audition. I miss those nerves. I was going to say, should we manifest a Christopher Nolan audition, a Quentin Tarantino audition? You want in the room with Greta?

Who do you want to get in the room with? I probably, I definitely want to get into the room with Greta, Quentin, yeah. I'd say both of those. You'll take. Honestly, like, I'll take any audition, honestly, at this point. Fair enough. I do think like you're after the roles we've discussed, maybe it's time for another musical, another light ticket to paradise, something, a bit of a pallet cleanser just for your own. We want you to just enjoy life. You know, I was just realizing that the other day, like how I've only done pretty intense and sad things for the last few years. And I would like to do a comedy soon.

I don't know what that'll be, but it'd be nice. I heard you mention you saw O'Mary here. I saw too, unbelievable, right? Is theater in New York on the list? Come on. Caitlin. I mean, I know. I would love that.

I was actually living in New York for like two or three months just once I finished the last of us officially, which was like in August or something. I took myself to New York just to sort of, like, not do anything, not work, and just literally live there. And I saw O'Mary, yeah, three times. I saw it with Betty Gilpin, who was amazing. I didn't see it with Cole. And I know that's... You, I mean, Betty, I'm sure it was incredible, but Cole...

Yeah. It's just like a whole other experience. Right. I've never seen anything like it. I'm obsessed. And they're back on. I know. I know.

You got to go. I know. I will. You have to go. I will. I'm seeing a lot of theater. It's pony seasons. I'm catching up with everything right now.

Yeah, there's a lot of really amazing stuff. Okay. We're going to end with this. I'm going to let you go to battle Godzilla and King Kong before we do that. The happy, confused, profoundly random questions, Caitlin. You're ready? Here we go. Okay.

dogs or cats dogs say it proud don't feel don't apologize no no you don't do elaborate if you don't want to

it's okay no I was sort of eye rolling at cats oh wow cat hate I'm sorry I don't care I don't have a cat

I'm not a cat person you're in a safe place don't worry it's okay it yeah do I need to elaborate no you're okay you've already you've already alienated

the cat lobby you've already destroyed your career don't worry what do you collect if anything um okay uh it used to be snow globes okay or no first it was beanie babies then it was snow globes then it was like vintage concert teas and then how much I still collect those but now it's like sconces and small lamps. You're a woman of refined taste.

You've gone from, yeah, like, you know, I'm a hip early 20s, bands, and now it's like, hmm, that lamp would go nicely over there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I like them when they've got a little switch on them. Anyway.

Okay. All right. Favorite video game of all time. Last of us. Yeah, yeah, I got it. You got to go. This is the Dakota Johnson Memorial question. She asked me this provocative question.

Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one B in your butt? I think one B in my butt. Yeah. Yeah. That's the conventional wisdom. I don't want, I'm like, I'm, I don't like bugs in general. I mean, I love bees. I always want to.

Good for the planet. I do love bees. I have, I actually haven't, knock on wood. I haven't actually technically been stung by one. I only got stung by a bee because I still only stepped on one and the stinger. I didn't end up killing the, well, the sting, Gervin and me. So I guess, yeah, that's, but. The circle of life.

I haven't. But, no, I definitely don't want a mouthful bees. No, don't worry. We're not going to make that happen. What's the wallpaper on your phone? Want to see it? Yeah. it's that's my my family my mom my two sisters my dad the sweetest love it love it last actor you

were mistaken for uh it's always it's yeah it's julia garner we're always we're always yeah we look very similar i love julia she's amazing she's an incredible actor um yeah i was gonna say You were great in Ozark. You were amazing in that I was going to mention. Thank you. Thank you. I worked so hard. I won Emmys.

It was, what a thrill. Worst noted director has ever given you. Oh, worst note, a director has ever given you. Oh, worst note. Just like act like a girl? Not great. No, not. exactly what does that mean what did you say did you just kind of I you know I was young and

I was just like I was like early 20s I was like okay thank you you know yeah yeah you took it in and said you know what in about six years I'm going to mention you on a podcast so and finally in the spirit of happy sag infused an actor who always makes you happy honestly i'm gonna it's pedro it's good answer just seeing him in interviews seeing him in film and tv it just brings a smile to my face a movie that always makes you sad oh now it's oh the titanic after all that you went deep you went all the way 97 okay cool I mean it's a classic yeah that's it should it's a very sad I stay away from it because it's so sad we're Jack I know rarely I really watch it I like I've only seen it a few times and a food that makes you

confused. This is the final one. Food that makes you confused. Okay. Eggplant, because sometimes like, why is it good sometimes? Right. You know, you're not, you're not the first. It's a Barry Keogin also went eggplant. So you share, maybe great, great actors of your generation hate eggplant, apparently. I'm a big fan of his. I mean, yeah, I don't know what's going on with the eggplant. Can't really get to the bottom of that. Right. Well, we'll continue. we'll continue that on the next chat to be continued thank you for this conversation thank you for taking the time away from your your busy set out there and thank you for being so open and I know this kind of conversation that's a lot to talk about and I you know thank you just

for the open emotional honesty and and congrats honestly on on both of these performances apple cider vinegar that's on Netflix and the last of us is extraordinary. I've gotten a sneak peek at a bunch of episodes. So congratulations. And on to season three. Here we go. Here we go.

Thank you so much for having me. Of course. Anytime. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. Simon's celebrates freedom of expression with a daily ritual of getting dressed.

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