Happy Sad Confused - Kevin Kline

Episode Date: August 31, 2014

Kevin Kline is a veritable acting legend which means this conversation is replete with stories of “A Fish Called Wanda”, “I Love You to Death” and the revelation that the Oscar winner has never eaten at Bubba Gump. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Hey guys, welcome to another edition of Happy Side Confused. I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to my podcast. This week's guest, it's another big one, at least for me and hopefully for you. I, you know, growing up in the 80s and 90s, there's a handful of actors that made the impact that this gentleman did. Kevin Klein is my guest this week on the podcast. And whether you're talking about his collaborations with Lawrence Kasden in such varied work as Silverado and Grand Canyon and the Big Chill and I Love You to Death, or, you know, his film debut in Sophie's Choice or his Oscar-winning amazing performance in a fish called Wanda, soap dish. The list goes on and on. Nobody, but nobody makes it look as easy and as fun as Kevin Klein and able to negotiate drama and comedy equally well. So this was a huge This was a huge one for me, and it was a delight. Kevin Klein spent a good, you know, basically an hour hanging out at my office,

swapping stories before and after the podcast. It's, this one's a real treat. And if you're a Kevin Klein fan, I know you'll appreciate it. And if you're not, hopefully this will get you looking at some of his amazing work because it is well worth your time. Yes, those are authentic honks and horns of New York City behind me. I can't fake that. The films that Kevin Klein was and is promoting are two, actually.

He has got two smaller films out. One is called My Old Lady, starring two amazing actors, Kristen Scott Thomas and Maggie Smith alongside of him, basically a three-character piece set in Paris. And The Last of Robin Hood, which is a truly fascinating true story about the last days of Errol Flynn, who was a notorious alcoholic and womanizer,

a dastardly fellow to say the least. least. And Klein plays him in his last days, one last affair with a young lady played by Dakota Fanning. Susan Sarandon also stars in that one. So two films worth checking out if you're a Kevin Klein fan. As always, guys, hit me up on Twitter, Joshua Horowitz. Use the hashtag, Happy, Sad, Confused. Let me know who you want to hear. Let me know what you're digging. And as always, I will just say, if you guys have a second, please do. Go to Eye iTunes and just hit the review button, jot out a few words, or even just rate it. It really helps get this podcast listened to by more people and would meet a great deal to me. So

thanks in advance for that. In return for that kindness, I give you this. The great Kevin Klein. Enjoy guys. I'm going to play the part of the Grand Inquisitor today. Mr. Kevin Klein is. Very good. I'll be Ivan Karamatsu. Actually, could you play Kevin Klein for the purposes of my podcast today? Ooh, he's, there is no Kevin Klein. Oh, wow. We went deep right at the beginning. Yeah. This is, I will, I will enact the role of an authentic human being for the next 30 minutes or so. I will create a, the illusion of authenticity. You seem authentic sitting here, like an actual normal human being. Acting. This podcast is a great pleasure of mine

For no other reason that I get to sit down with people That I've long admired We've never spoken before, sir But I couldn't be more excited to have you here In my strange office You're a New Yorker, you're in Times Square I apologize for Times Square, inflicting that upon you It used to be so, used to have such character, didn't it?

It did? And now... How would you describe it? Now there are Elmo's everywhere, there are... It's a little, what's the word, over decorated That's charitable Yeah

But if you need to go to Not what you'd call Nuiced No Architecture But if you want to get some Food at Bubba Gump Afterwards with me

We can we can Get it some what Some food at Bubba Gump Bubba Gump Yeah Is that a chain You never had the Bubba Gump I have

The B Gump Gump Gap's in my Gastronomic Experiments You're not missing anything Sir No okay

It doesn't sound terribly appetizing As good as it sounds, it's worse. It sounds like something you get, and you have a little gump in my stomach. I think the case of the gumps. You have not one but two pleasurable films that I've just seen in the last day or two, sir, to talk about. I want to talk about a lot of things, those films, but also, you know, being that you are a New Yorker, and I grew up in the city whenever I have somebody on that is an authentic New Yorker that obviously embraces the town.

I want to revel in that for a moment because we're a different breed, I like to think. Are you a New Yorker? Born and bred. Wow. Where? What neighborhood? I grew up in the Upper West Side. I always like to say the mean streets of the Upper West Side West 70th Street.

Oh, okay. Pretty rough. I lived on West 70th when I was at Juilliard. Is that right? So was that? Just to bring the conversation back to me. You, for the record, you asked me a question. I know, but isn't it funny how I just.

You got bored so quickly. It's a boomer up and West Side. I live there. Yes. Was that your first encounter in New York when you came to Juilliard? Had you been before? I came once or twice on short visits. I was at Indiana University studying music, supposedly,

and then I switched over to the theater department, and suddenly I realized there was a lot of theater I should see. So a bunch of us got in a car and drove up here to see Hair, which was an event. And, you know, those occasional outings, like that. And also people graduated before me from college and, you know, fellow Thespians and I'd come and visit them. Was Juilliard, what was the atmosphere at Juilliard then? Is it a competitive nurturing environment back then, or was it something cutthroat or? Go on. It was all of those.

It was, well, you know, I would rather have an opening night on Broadway with all of the critics there, which they never are on opening night anymore. But they used to be. And rather than have to get up in front of a class of actors who are going to sit in judgment while I do a scene. Yeah, it was pretty competitive. And then after a couple of years at Juilliard, then I was with the same people for four years following that in the acting company. So there's a bit of too much knowledge. And the worst thing you could say to an actor when you're having an argument with him,

fellow actor, and that company was, and that's the problem with your acting. Whatever it started with, you're always the last person to get on the bus. Why do you keep us all waiting? You're so blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's the problem with your acting. That's the actor's equivalent of the ultimate epithet.

That's the... Yeah. It's the finger in the face from an actor to an actor. Oh, yeah. So was a... No, but it was also very nurturing. And a wonderful, you could say, in retrospect, a safe haven wherein one could practice.

Right. And be pushed to stretch in various ways. What was the intent out of Juilliard to... Because, you know, it's well known. that the first part of your career was in the theater. It took a little while before you made the entry into films, was that from lack of opportunity? Was that just prioritizing one thing over another?

Was that? I was in the first graduating class, and John Hausman, who ran the school, decided to have a mini-repertory season. So we did four or five plays in rep and invited some critics and all of his theater friends. And the New York Times gave us this wonderful review. And then Houseman had the idea against his better judgment,

he said, I'm going to form you into a repertory company, my seventh, which is the last thing I need at my age. And so we were all handed equity cards and sat out on the road. And so I spent four years doing that. It was such a, yes, we paid our dues. We were paid very little. and lived on a bus practically and saw the world, I mean, toured across and up and down the country,

doing an array of classical and modern plays in repertory, fantastic experience that very few American actors are afforded. So that was grand. And his point was he said, I just don't want you to take all this training and then go out to Los Angeles and do television. Right. And then, of course, he won an Oscar

and then was appearing as a guest on just about every television show. The very thing he tried to protect us from. Literally everything that you were not supposed to do. Everything we were told not to do, he did for us. But he did it with a profound voice and gravitas. Yes, he did. And we were out, you know, sort of doing the classics in the hinterlands.

So was it a frustrating? time because, I mean, you know, you've got the skills, I would think, by then, you've got probably the, for lack of a better word, hubris at that time, probably you think that you can conquer the world, and yet you're probably seeing opportunities go by in film when you're like, that's where I want to get to. Yes, I actually had an agent who said, well, please, when you're going to come back and actually, you know, have a career, you're not available, I can't, no, this is, don't you understand, this is, this is art, this is great, this is wonderful training, and this is, I'm doing great

roles in great, you know, plays from the Western canon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but Young and the Restless is looking for something right now. Yeah, and actually there's, you know, so anyway. And it was true that after those four years, I had to kind of go back to square one because we would have a little mini, you know, three or four week seasons in New York, but then we just disappeared for nine months. And flashed Florida, I know a number of years, but.

Sophie's Choice, obviously, was your film debut. Now, Merrill, actually, I was just telling you before we started today that I got to do this press conference for this movie The Giver. Merrill was there, and I know you're going to be working with her again. In October, yeah. Which is crazy. This is going to be the first time since Sophie's Choice? Well, we've done some theaters, certainly since Sophie's Choice.

With Mother Courage and The Segal. But we did Bob Altman's last film, of course, the Periome companion. Now, I think I have. I had one line with Merrill, different plot. But we were there, we were there in a movie together. Was she a force of nature back then too? What was the aura of Merrill back in around 82? Indescribably,

vivid, powerful. She was the most self-assured, confident, assertive, without ever losing her humanity or femininity. I said, she just, she knew what she wanted to do. She always had ideas. We would finish a day's work and then we'd say, you know, I have an idea about tomorrow. What do you think of, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I went, yeah, it's a great idea.

We would go to watch the dailies together and, um, I gave her a few notes. I'm kidding. No, in fact, I remember one day after Daily's, I said, it's a real privilege to sit here and watch what is going to win you an Oscar or something. Something really show busy like that. But I was right.

No, it was just extraordinary to watch her work. Yeah. And she was also very generous to me and to Peter McNichael. She would just whisper little things, certainly in my ears, saying just say it when I was making a meal out of some speech you know is that something inherited from from the theater is that something or is that so nerve for the first time on a film set both yeah both and also playing a

character who was well theatrical in a way who was play acting of sorts that's that's my defense against some gross overacting I don't think anyone's emphasizing your performance in Sophie's choice at this point. Do you feel that the ship has sailed? They know what's the point? Live with it. Sophie's choice is many things. I wouldn't call it a light comedy,

which is something that you, for my money, I mean, you know, this is going to make me sound like an old man or a young man and make you hate me. But like growing up, your films, as a leading man in comedy, you were unparalleled. You own the screen and had such a, and made it look so effortless. Did you feel that comedy came especially naturally to you?

Yes. I've always felt very at home doing comedy. It's fun being in a comedy. Sophie's Choice was fun, believe it or not. Really? Oh, so much fun. Not in the way you would describe fun. There are many people would describe fun,

but fun in the sense of stimulating, challenging, exciting, working on that material with those people. It was fun, terrible letdown when it was open. When it was open. Yes, when it was over. When it was on Broadway after? Yeah, when it was open. Yes.

That was a letdown too. I suppose. Yeah. Because, you know, you make this baby and then you, and it's not yours anymore. Suddenly it's the world's and you send it out there into the world and they will make it of it what they will. But no, it was, yeah, it was, there was a real crash after it was over because it was my first film and what an experience. But as I say, Merrill was was helpful and inspirational. Yeah. The, I mean, segueing into into the, the two films that are going to be coming up very soon. I mean, I would think, like Merrill, when a script comes,

I don't know if Maggie or Chris and Scott Thomas, for instance, were attached, but Maggie Smith, I mean, it's got to be such an opportunity that you don't want to say no to. No, exactly. No, I was actually attached four years ago, it seems like, and went through many readings with Israel Horowitz as he hammered away at,

at turning his play, which was tremendously successful. He had just, I think when we started working on it, he had just returned from Moscow, where the Moscow Art Theater was doing it. In fact, just recently, I didn't realize this, that he first got the idea of expanding it into a play as he was watching the Moscow Art Theater production of his play, where he said the woman who played the old lady

he looked like an aging Elvis Presley and she kept leaving the station coming back with a different costume and he didn't understand a word but he'd seen the play in at least a dozen languages previously but he found himself musing about what was missing which was

Paris. It all takes place the play takes place in one room in an apartment so he wanted to open it up and then Personally, I think he just said he got that inspiration because he wanted to drop the name Moscow Art Theater where his play was playing. It's like, yeah, me in Chekhov,

and they do all our stuff. All the horror bits and Horowitzes are very pretentious. We all are, I apologize. Not at all. Perfectly understandable. I would be dropping the name. I actually visited the Moscow Art Theater. That was my brush with Stanislovsky.

I actually saw the bed that Stanisovsky died in. That was interesting. Not a big bed. No, small man? Very modest. His apartment, though, was, I mean, he had a theater in his home. Like a limax theater, like a home like... It was his version of the home entertainment center,

but it was like a small European opera house. He literally had people so he could stage performances in his own? I don't know what he did with it. It could go down another road. But I don't remember reading about that. But I said, wow. Oh, this is his little theater. Nice.

Yeah. You get to do many things in the film, including playing slightly inebriated. Is that a challenge as an actor? Not when you're working in France, because they serve wine with lunch. Your method that way. The challenge is playing sober.

After lunch. No, I'm kidding. Of course. I guess it's always a challenge to do what we call a convincing drunk. But especially in this piece, which is so oddly mixing comedy and drama, the tone was very elusive on the. page and it was only in the doing of it that we found the tone but there was you know some experimentation along the way so you could play a comic drunk

actually there was there's the one scene it's in the movie that we've done a couple takes he said try falling down in this take okay so I fell off the seat and that's the take you like it that's a bit it during a very dramatic right moment At least in my head, I'm saying something very profound, I think, in this drunken stupor. But anyway. You've never, you've always been an actor that's, I mean, I think of some of the more notable comedic performances. And I wouldn't count this one necessarily as a comedic performance. As you say, there's a lot more going on.

I don't know. Well, but I think it could be. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen it with an audience. I don't know what they're, I saw a little screening of an early cut of the film, and people who hadn't seen it were laughing. But in the doing of, one didn't, you never know. Especially when you're trying different things,

and you don't know which take is going to be used. It's always an interesting discovery. I guess what when I think, though, to certain of your performances that are among my favorites, in the comedic realm, I think of you going, not being afraid, frankly, to go big at times. I mean, you think of Otto smelling his armpits. Yes.

That's, was that in the script? No. I did it one day, and John, please, I like that. Do that some more. We'll do some more of those. I, it was, that was another film that, well, the tone was not, it was pretty, not so elusive. was a farce but in terms of the character I there was there was complexity there

yeah and I kept saying to John I said who who is this guy because he was just so stupid and so weird and and and he just wanted just encouraged me to just be silly right so I could I remember the scene where I'm we're about to make love and I pull her boots off, he said, smell her boot. Okay, so I smell her boot, and then I realized, oh, it's inflatable. So suddenly I'm inflating her boot and then smelling my armpit and somehow that his own body odor seemed to give him. To me, it was the ultimate narcissistic, just primitive sort of self. to inspire yourself, to do great deeds of amorous lovemaking,

whatever, I mean, of amorous lovemaking, and not to mention redundancy. It's one step away, though, from beating his chest with raw meat. Like, he's pretty primitive. He's a pro-magnan man. Originally, we were going to do the sex scene we talked about. He was actually one of those gym, one of those things, doing his weightlifting while she's straddling him.

And, and, um, but we always agreed that, uh, that his orgasm, he should look like a complete idiot. That his true, his inner, the essence came out in that moment, was in that moment of surrender or bliss or whatever you want to call it. He's kind of like, as I'm, as I'm, as we're talking, as you describe him, it's, he's like a proto Will Ferrell character. Will Ferrell's built his career on these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, that's kind of what Otto was in a way. years. Oh, very full of them. Completely misguided and completely confident. I kind of missed the time where I don't know in our politically correct society today

if you could get away with a performance that mocked, or I mean, he's an idiot, so he's the one being mocked, but a man stuttering, for instance. Well, it was very funny because they were picketing at the premiere. Is that right? Oh, yes, there was a coalition of stutterers who thought that stutterers were being depicted in a negative light to which Cleese remarked once privately he said, I don't understand why there aren't stupid people

picketing because we put stupid people in a very bad light in the film. And I think he was referring to me my character. They're not good at organizing, though, making signs. Maybe they were trying to. They were trying to. But wait a minute, now we've got this. sign but where do we put the stick on it to hold it up I don't know what you think I don't know but no it was it was a very small coalition and we and we wrote letters of apology and never mentioned the fact that Michael Palin's father was a

stutterer so he was you know Michael doing a brilliant brilliant stuttering and of course my characters makes fun of him which isn't very nice, but the other thing, please said, no one seems to worry about the fact that we're killing, we're trying to kill this old lady, you know, with many attempts, and we're killing all her dogs, and you're getting run over by a steamroller, and everyone's fine with that.

But make fun of the poor stutterers. I mean, come on. Two other roles, if you'll indulge me, sir. I think a criminally underappreciated film and performances I Love You to Death, which is one of your many collaborations with Lawrence Kasden, obviously. Which is a film notable, for me, like, it seems like everybody in that film was going for it,

was really making, like, big choices from Bill Hurt to Keanu Reeves to River. Tracy Olman, in a way, is almost like the straight woman in it. She's subdued, yes, because Tracy, no one can be as outrageous as Tracy. Ironically, yes. She's in that mode. But no, she was very grounded in that. And again, even your accent in that,

I don't know if the Italian-American Wabi appreciated it or not. I still adore it. Well, originally, I thought, oh, he's Italian-American. And then I found an interview with the real, it's based on a true story. Right. As outrageous as it is, it of course, it's not the first time that art has imitated.

life and seemed just too bizarre to be real but this happened and he was not he was from Bari in the southern part of Italy and had an Italian accent and and that helped me once once I decided I'm not gonna do you know this kind of Bumba thing I'll do this Italian accent and I found it and it sounded you know as close as I could to him I met him, actually, after the film had come out, I was doing a playoff Broadway, and he came backstage. He said, you want to feel my head? I still got the bullet.

It's still there in my skull. You can feel, and I felt it. That's interesting. Yeah. Also, perhaps the best line reading of, the small moments I love is just your pants falling down and you're just feebly saying, oopsie daisy. Oh, you know, and he's completely stoned on.

They're trying to kill him. He's like Rasputin, he won't... It just gets them a little kind of woozy. Yeah. It holds up. It's pretty funny. Oh, that's good to hear. Pretty amazing.

And I feel like I'm doing this is your life, Kevin Klein. I apologize, but you're indulging my childhood obsessions with your films. I was 15 years old when I skipped school for about six months, and I saw soap dish, I think, about 20 times in the theater. I literally knew it by heart, probably still do. Did you have... So you skipped... You didn't have to ever endure the life. of a soap actor you never did you yeah oh yeah and a and a dinner theater actor that

scene where I'm doing Willie Lohman and dinner theater that's what I guess it's the first time you see him yeah don't call me Will stop calling me Mr. Lohman or whatever and then when Robert Downey Jr. comes backstage and you know and he does the whole oh no you were here tonight oh no no no you know you saw the wrong performance they were terrible referring to the audience I mean there's so many actor jokes wonderful actor jokes

than dinner theater is that pretty much the Pitts as an actor it's it's really well I wouldn't want to do death of a salesman in a dinner theater

I actually did star spangled girl in a dinner theater in Staten Island when I first arrived in New York the hotbed of dinner theater in the world

it could well have been but the audience the clinking of silverware and Crystal and talking during the play. I guess it was good preparation for Broadway. With cell phones and old people saying, what did he say? I don't know.

Do you find audiences are getting worse? Or would the amount of devices that they can now call upon if they get bored for five seconds? That's, I mean, that's distracting. The last thing I did on Broadway, Sierra, though, Bergerac. I was dying and doing my big dying speech, and then I fall into the arms of Jennifer Garner, and then the curtain comes down. And she said, did you hear that lady in the third row? I didn't hear because I was orating, but she said, did you hear what she was saying?

I said, no, I didn't hear a thing when the curtain finally came. She said, her phone rang, she answered it and said yeah it's almost over I'll be there in about 10 minutes Kevin Klein is on the ground he's dying yeah he's he's practically dead and so I'll be there

you're right around the corner so hang on and this is all during my and I missed the whole thing thankfully you were in the zone you were I was in my yeah I was in my death throes otherwise I would have

certainly commented in character or would you break character no I would have I would have said it in character somehow you um the other film I want to mention which I very much enjoyed is the last of Robin Hood which features you and then great performances from Dakota and David Fanning and Susan Sarandon of course this is the latest and long string of swash bucklers that you've you've done in your career though this is not his finest hour certainly no his his swashbuckling days were long over no he he was complete wreck so this is I mean this is a fascinating story which I maybe I'd heard peripherally but certainly not I mean clearly in that back in the day it was

the scandal of its time and he was a none too subtle cad about town say to say well to me one of the great outrageous ironies is that less I think you were than 15 years earlier. He had just barely been acquitted for a double statutory rape rap. And he was front page, that was the big scandal. I mean, World War II was relegated to the third and fourth page, but this was front page news

for the weeks and weeks and weeks. But he was so outrageous. I mean, his second wife, I believe, was working at the concession stand. She was 17 at the time. I believe, and working at the concession stand at the courthouse where he was on trial for statutory rape. Shamedless man. And he talks about it in his autobiography, My Wicked Wicked Ways, How he looked over the counter and saw her legs.

He was obsessed. Well, he was obsessed with many things about women, but particularly legs. And I think he waited until she turned 18, and then she got pregnant, and then they got married. And then they had another trial. But how did we get, oh, he was, yes, he lived by his own rules. I think he was a very loyal friend. And according to David Niven, he said, who shared a house with him. He said he was more fun than all of my friends in Hollywood put together

and told stories about how, I mean, he was a prankster, a jokester. and completely unpredictable and loved to shock people and you'd think he was kind of a party animal but in fact if he had a day off from a film he was doing down on his boat

loved his sailing loved his adventures at sea there's of course on the other side that I mean famously fictionalized in my favorite year that was based on him wasn't it Peter who obviously had his own wild days famously yes good casting but that line

And it's funny, you know, you read all these biographies of these famous, illustrious movie stars or whatever, and I found this when I played Cole Porter in the film, Delovelie, the more biographies you read, the more contradictory evidence, and you just try to find some corroborating. Four people said this, even though one of them placed it at this moment in time in this geographical location, But for instance, the line in my favorite year when O'Toole says he walks into the ladies' room, she says, this is for, and he's already got his thing ready for his elimination at a urinal. And the woman says, this is for women. He said, well, so is this. But occasionally I have to let water run through it. But they gave that line to, I mean, of course, Baramar was a great, great pal of,

Flynn's and and you never they never mentioned Flynn but it's clearly I mean he's an amalgam of all those outrageous kind of I'm not an actor I'm a movie star exactly is the note in the film is that is that moment where he's on your character's on stage and he literally doesn't know his lines as reading off cue cards is that that seems that's out of soap dish literally it is but that he was yeah he that he took the is he was doing theater. His friend Huntington Hartford had asked him to do this adaptation of Jane Eyre, which he had done, and Errol did it. His film career was really in terrible shape. I mean, he was only playing old drunken Ruiz and just shooting morphine and just shooting morphine and

drinking one or two quarts of vodka a day and living it up. But, yeah, he apparently did that play, and he left it. He quit after a couple of weeks. Is the breakdown right now, I mean, obviously, you know, you mentioned Ciro, that was the last time you were on stage, which was just a few years ago. Is that something that, how does theater develop for you? Is it just sort of like an itch where you say, okay, next year seems like the right time to go back and I'll look for the best available project or is it more of a project

comes to you and it's much much more random yeah it's if a project comes to me go oh yes Cyrano yeah I always wanted to play serenone yeah let's do that um that actually had happened a year earlier I'd met with David Levo the the director and he said I'd love to do something with you and what parts of you always wanted to play and I said since high school I've always to play Cyrano. We read it in English in high school. And I loved it. And then I guess I'd seen the movie. But it had always been on my list. Yeah. Roles to play. And then it kind of went away. And then suddenly I got a call from LeVos saying, the theater has just become available in October. This was in August. Shall we do it? And I said, okay. And that, you know, Sirono never shuts up.

It's a long, loquacious part. And so I started learning my lines that as soon as I hung up the phone. You mentioned Sirono. I mean, you've also played Lear. I mean, these are high on the list for any actor to, like, knock off that list. Okay, I'm going to get through those quintessential roles. Right. Do you still have some that are scratching at you?

I find myself, there were some on the list that I, I've just crossed off as... They're less interesting now, or they're... Maybe having done Lear, which is a cursed and cursing role. I remember friends telling me that some English actors that, oh, we have to go see our friend he's doing King Lear, and it's a career ender

for many actors. Once they've done it, there's just nothing, they just don't want to act anymore, either because it's a dismal failure or... Interesting. it's well I've done that's the pinnacle

what do I do now well if you're English you just do another layer but Lethgo's doing it now yeah

I'm hoping to see it in the next few days no there are these yeah they're kind of signposts along the road if you're going to call yourself a serious actor

this is what you take on the fact I could do Lear a couple more times, although I really think, I mean, you don't have the stamina. Everybody said, well, you know, he says, you know, four score and upwards. And Olivier famously said, it's a young man's part. Gilgud played Lear. His third Lear, the third leer he had done was at age 45. Is that right? Yeah. Schofield did it in his early 40s, and Peter Book directed it, and they made a film of it. You can't carry Ophelia if you're 80.

You can for a few seconds, and then it's not going to go well. Olivier had her on cables when he did the television leer in his 80s. I think he was in his 80s or damn near. And the stamina required is tremendous. Actors have done it. It, you know, greatly advanced ages, so. But it is a, it's probably the, well, many people. It's the greatest play ever written for some of the greatest literature ever written.

It's different than when you're putting on a show. It's like, yes, it's great, but now how do we make it work as theater? That's a whole different set of problems. Is, are you happy with the kind of material you get? in terms of film right now? No. To answer your question, why do I go back to the theater?

That's where the still the best roles are. Well, I started there. I was spoiled by doing great plays. And once you've had a taste of that, and if you enjoy it, you want to do more. So I've returned to the theater almost exclusively to do plays with, poetic diction, elevated texts, or whatever you want to call them,

Shakespeare, Chekhov is, well, at the time, was considered quite naturalistic, but I think now it's considered classical. But you don't get writing like that in films. And I was really foolish in the early part of my career by bringing the same criteria to base while reading a film script as I would a check off play or a Shakespeare. Gee, this is so inferior.

I mean, there's not one line here that gave me goosebumps when I said it, you know, or when I read it. And so I learned eventually that it's a whole other animal. And it's not about great language. great language. There's not a lot of poetic diction in even brilliant. Well, there is in a way, but now it's called poetic. I mean, I was going to say when there's brilliant dialogue, sure. Great dialogue is great dialogue, whatever the medium. And I've been fortunate to have some great dialogue. Do you feel much connection though, like when you see like what's playing at the multiplex now? Because it is, you know, I mean, it's not breaking news to say that it is 80%

comic movies and the rare r-rated raunchy comedy and a musical here and there it's it's an odd bland what Hollywood has become is a is an odd assemblage the the industry is it has become more industrial and it's you know the whole thing it's run by businessmen and the bottom line is everything and you know I've talked to a couple of studio heads years ago who said you know we have to do the big blockbusters in order to be able to produce the things that we care about deeply. Seems like they forgot the second part of that now. Well, no, because the whole independent movement, now, they don't have to worry about those scripts. They said, we just don't bother now.

We need, you know, we'll make $100 million or $200 million a movie because it'll make a half a billion or a couple of billion or whatever. and those indie people which there's no no budget there's no time there's certainly no pay

it's more like a hobby for an actor so what happened to the weren't they going to overpay me splendidly for doing what I love to do where are those days that ended with Wild Wild West

that was that trailer catering must have been nice on that one Well which caterer I mean you could go to the sushi bar Or you could have the French Yeah no no It was a regular catering was very good Is there enough perspective on that one to have a laugh about that film

Or was it painful at the time It was Well I did a very stupid thing I said I've never done this kind of movie So I'm going to suspend my normal criteria or

taste. Well, this is this just go with what a green is from them. This big spider the leg is going to come right down in front of you and will and then say something funny.

And about halfway through Barry would he would trust us occasionally. to just do something funny or say something funny. And my point was that, well, all right, this, okay, we've got it, we're moving on. It seems like it could have been better. We could have acted it better.

We could have been funnier, perhaps. It could have been logical. It could have made sense. But all these things that I, but I just, no, no, no, no, it's a different, this is a different thing. Logic doesn't matter when they're giant spiders. But then, then I went to the premiere and it was the first time I'd seen it. It was sort of interesting because I thought, no, you were right. That wasn't funny.

It felt not funny when you did it, and it's, nobody's laughing. everything can't be fixed in post. There's... Taste your... No. Everything can't be fixed in post. And look, it's many, many...

And the movie made a fortune. It was like a disappointing $300 million first weekend because they were expecting half a billion. But it's still made a chunk of money worldwide.

and and also someone just recently pointed out to you know that's one of the early movies to have steampunk that's true yeah yeah and then of course I said what is steampunk and then I said yeah I guess you'd say yeah so it was perhaps ahead of its time or in the vanguard of what is now a completely steampunk I guess those uh Sherlock Holmes things that Downy has been doing. That's steampunk, isn't it? Yes, fair to say.

But we were there first. I don't know, there's probably been steampunk for years, we just didn't have a name for it. But you didn't have Kenneth Brana showing the scenery and giant spiders. Yes. On that delicate note, I wish you a disappointing $300 million gross

on both Last of Robin Hood and my old lady. No, two fine pieces of work, and I'm so pleased that it brought you into the insanity that it is Times Square? Yeah, it's my pleasure. That's called acting. I love it down here.

It's just vibrating, teeming with life. We're going to go get into our Spider-Man and Elmo costumes now and make some extra money. Yes, but don't, we can't be too pushy, though. That's right. We're gentle, gentle. Just open our hand. If you feel so inclined. Give as much as you feel.

Next time you pose with Elmo, look closely. That could be Kevin Kline. Yes. I've worked with Elmo. What's he like? Oh, charming. I did Sesame Street a couple times. And then I did a movie directed by Frank Oz.

In and out, of course. Exactly. A real pleasure, sir. Thanks for your time. I was my. of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers,

and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S. Army and Native American warriors to dark corners for the disaster of the Donner Party and shining summits for achievements like the Transcontinental Railroad. We'll go back to the earliest days of explorers and mountain men and head up through notorious Pinkerton agents and gunmen like Tom Horn. Every episode features narrative writing and cinematic music, and there are hundreds of episodes available to binge. I'm Chris Wimmer. Find Legends of the Old West wherever you're listening now.