Happy Sad Confused - Lin-Manuel Miranda

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

We throw words like genius around but it's hard to argue using that word around Lin-Manuel Miranda, the man who in large part can be credited with such pop culture juggernauts as IN THE HEIGHTS, ENCANTO, and of course HAMILTON. Here, on his first visit to Happy Sad Confused he talks about it all, from coming full circle with MOANA to why he turned down a Spider-Man villain role, to why success didn't always fulfill him. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And here's all the stuff that's been building up in my brain. And you put it out on the table and you go, oh, everyone goes through that. Got it. The second time I called him was in between off Broadway and Broadway in the Heights. My show I'd spent my 20s writing was on a stage and I feel the same. It didn't fix it. It didn't fix the hole in me. What's going on?

Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, sad, confused. Today on the show, a first-time guest, an absolute legend, Lynn Manuel Miranda, in the Heights, Hamilton, all the way up to his new effort.

Yes, Moana is back in live action form, and Lynn is a huge part of it. I'm so thrilled he's on the show. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Spotify, however you're doing it. I appreciate you guys. And remember, before we get to the main event today, a quick reminder, check out our Patreon.

You get early access to every single episode of Happy Say I Confused, and you get special access to our live events in New York and L.A., you get autographed merch, lots of cool bonuses over there. Patreon.com slash happy, say I'm confused. Check it out. All right. So today's episode is one that's been a long time coming. Needless to say, I've wanted to have Lin-Manuel Miranda on the show for a long while. For whatever reason, it's never happened. Not only that, I've literally never spoken to the man before, which is kind of surprising, given all the junkets I've done, all the films I've covered, everything.

I'm happy to report he more than lived up to his reputation as not only a guy that has an amazing body of work to talk about, but is just the genuine article. Sweet, smart, funny, all the things we like and happy, say, I get confused guests, and we cover a lot of territory in this. we talk about Moana returning to that film in this new live action form that's now out in theaters. But of course we also talk about in the Heights and Hamilton and all the opportunities that came with Hamilton. There's an amazing story for you. Marvel heads out there of the role he turned down in a Marvel movie that will shock people.

First time he's ever talked about that. A tease of his next film, he just directed other musicals that he weighs in on. Good, bad and the ugly. there's a ton of this conversation. So I know you guys are going to enjoy it. I certainly did without any further ado. Here is me and Lynn Manuel Miranda. I'm very excited.

Lynn Manuel Miranda, you're on the podcast. You're unhappy, say I confused. I'm so thrilled to be here. I'm a fan of the podcast. I'm thrilled to be on it. I am a huge fan of yours. It is kind of strange, actually, our paths. I've literally never crossed.

We were just talking about mutuals and commonalities. Both grew up in New York City, both loved Weird Al growing up. up. Indeed. You've got a few more awards on your shelf than me. I'm not going to hold it against you. Thank you. But we have a lot to cover. Congratulations. I'm O'Anne. Thank you. First of all, can we talk a little bit about some commonalities? We were just talking a little bit. You're still a city kid at heart, I would imagine. You're still... How like, are you living close to where you grew up in? I live 20 blocks from where I grew up. I live, I moved all the way down from Dykeman Street to Washington Heights, from Inwood to Washington Heights. So I'm still up there. Did you ever do the LA thing? Did you ever have to? Was it... No, I, the only time I had gone to

to LA was for work. My first time there was shooting an arc on house as an actor. And I stayed, this is how green I was to LA. I stayed in Lamont Rose Hotel, but I, like, read it wrong, and I thought it was the lemon tea rose. You went vertel. You broke it up, a little too. Yeah. And then I remember my then-girlfriend, now wife came to visit me because that was five weeks. I was, that was like a two-hour premiere that I was on for season six. And I went to pick up my Vanessa at LAX and I got lost. Yeah. And I found myself in South Central, but I played so much Grand Theft Auto San Andreas

that I had like a mental map. Because this is pre-Ways, this is pre-GPS. And I was like, okay, up the hill is close to, like I knew up into the left would get me to West Hollywood. Amazing. And I literally used my Grand Theft Auto San Andreas skills. I was like, oh, that's where I started a gang with smoke. That's where, like, I knew San Andreas got me around. Video game service well.

I don't have a driver's license unlike you. I'm really hardcore. Oh, wow, that's hardcore New York living. I do feel like, though, my years of playing, like, pole position and roadblasters. I could drive if me and be. A cruise in a world. Right? Yeah.

There's not really nitro boosters. I just have to break that to you. It doesn't help you in L.A. That's very sad. Yeah. What was your version to connect to Milano of going beyond the reef? Like, what was the street? you didn't go past growing up.

Like, were you kind of, like, close to? Yeah, sure. Well, you know, it's, I grew up across the street from Inwood Hill Park, which was, like, the last natural parkland in Manhattan. And I grew up in the 80s, and it was wild in the 80s. Like, I would be in the middle of the woods, like Calvin and Hobbsing around talking to myself, and I'd see entire chunks of stolen cars. Like, I was like, how did they get up here?

Right. So, you know, it was wild. Like, I kind of grew up in the days of like good block, bad block. Yeah. Like, I remember like, my street was cool and I was friends with, like, a lot of the kids on my block. And then, like, it was like, don't go to academy. Right. Academy's rough.

Right. And I remember, like, hiding in the snow once when the kids from Academy were, like, coming around. Yeah. So, like, it's that kind of New York existence where you learn block by block where to go and where not to go. Did your parents give you a lot of freedom? Like, did you feel like... I was definitely a go outside kid. Yeah.

And, like, there was a whistle. Right. You know, I'm like, I'm the generation of, like, your dad. had a whistle and if you heard that whistle it was time to go home how much different in existence is it for your kids growing up the kids of when Manuel Miranda a public figure i see you seem like a very grounded human being but there are also some trappings that go and love your life i mean honestly pretty great because i'm in the neighborhood i grew up in everyone like and when you're there it's not a big deal like yeah people see me with my headphones on they go he's writing and they leave

me alone. Like, I'm like, you know, like in a Fiddler on the roof and they're like, and then there are the special types in our village. Like I'm the dude walking around with the headphones in the background. Let him create. Just let him cook. And, but like my kids, you know, my kids have a lot of freedom in the world and they, you know,

my in-laws live you know, like on our block. My parents are 20 blocks away. So we actually do have like a mini village uptown. Amazing. So talk to me a little bit about, you referenced this just now. Like, out in the world, it sounds like, you know, again, I know what New York is like. New Yorkers are pretty cool about their celebrities. But like I would imagine though you still do, okay, yes, maybe they accept you and say like let him create and let them cook. But do you get like requests, do you get quoted? Do they want to sing to you? Do they want you to sing to them? Like what do you get when somebody does want something? I'll tell you my favorite New York experience and I always keep it at the front of my mind and it happened around like the peak of Hamilton Mania where everyone not only like knew who we were, but where we were. Like we were in that building doing that show.

I was, I think I was outside of Glass House Tavern, one of those like bars around Times Square and I was waiting for my ride to pick me up. And I had to get up to tell you this story. And a lady, two people were walking by me in opposite directions and a lady walks by me and she goes, say you're famous. The guy walking in the opposite direction saw her say that, looks at me and goes, no, you're not. New York in a nutshell. And I always hold that very close.

I'm like, say you're famous. No, you're not. It absolutely. It does. It does. I think I have a pretty normal existence. I get recognized. Normally people are pretty happy to see me.

And then there's always a level of like, and then I see like Dwayne walking around and he's got eight cameras and he can't go outside. And I'm like, I'm cool. I'm like really cool where I am. Yeah. I get to take the A. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I get to take it.

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It is. But first, let's go back to the first Moana, where you were at when this gig came around. So obviously in the Heights had happened, this is kind of like when Hamilton is still bubbling up. It hasn't hit Broadway yet when you... It hasn't even hit off Broadway yet. Yeah.

I was one of many musical theater composers who, like, interviewed for the job. Yeah. And I remember meeting Tom McDougal, who now is head of music for Disney, but was head of just Disney animation music at the time. And I just, you know, I was really excited to even be considered truly. Like I knew some of the other people they were interviewing, and I went in and again, like Little Mermaid was like my, that's like my Proustian, that's my rosebud slay. It's all in that.

That's the text of study. Yeah, it's like a Caribbean number happens in the middle of a Disney animated movie and my life is never the same. I was like, I didn't know this was allowed. Right. I was like, this sounds like, Caribbean is a calypso number in the middle of, like, and Disney movies were always like, when you wish, like very grand and very orchestral,

but this felt very fresh and sort of exploded my brain. So I went and met with, you know, Ron and John, who directed the original Little Mermaid, we're directing Moana. And I said, I'm here because of you. Like, if nothing else, I'm really happy to have this conversation because I'm here because of you and your incredible movie that exploded my brain.

And then I got the gig, and I'll never forget. The day I got the gig was the day I found out I was going to be a father. And my wife is an attorney, and she had a business trip. So she, like, whispered my ear, I think I'm pregnant. And then got on a plane. Oh, my God. I was still, like, half asleep. And then I found out I got this job.

And with that job offer came a one-way plane ticket to New Zealand. Because the entire creative team was already, they'd already hired Opatio. It'd already hired Mark Benchina. They already had two great songwriters there, and they were looking for someone who could really tell story with music. And so I flew to New Zealand, had this sort of shotgun marriage with Obataya and Mark

that went, thank goodness, really well. Like, our first time together was like a four-hour car trip to a studio in New Zealand, and we just played each other in music. And not even Pacific Island music, just like songs we liked. So we had a shared musical language by the time we got to the studio,

and I'm sitting on like, I'm going to be a father. And I haven't even had a chance to celebrate it with my wife. So it was like this very magical week. And it was probably about a year before Hamilton started off Broadway. At that time was Jain signed on? Like were you writing songs like you're welcome with Dwayne in mind? Yes.

So it kind of is all happening at the same time. I wrote the Mawana songs before we had Aulili. But Dwayne was signed on to play Maui. And that mixes like the ultimate mix of like, what I know about the actor and what I learned about the world, right? Like, I am a wrestling fan. I can, like, you know, I can recite rock soliloquies. It doesn't matter what you think, right?

So I literally went on YouTube when I found out he was playing it and just got a sense of his vocal range. I typed in The Rock Singing on YouTube. And it's a lot of cuts of him as a heel, pulling out a guitar, being like, Chicago sucks. Or like, whatever town. he was in and he's trying to rile them up. But the thing that was always impressive about

was he was always like a heel baby face. Like he would be, he would curse wrestlers out to their face. He'd curse out entire cities and you loved him for it. He had this persona that was the lovable, arrogant Superman. And so I wrote to, so Your Welcome was the first thing that popped into my head. I was like, you're welcome for humanity.

Right. And then the meat of the lyrics is research. It's, you know, Maui is the Prometheus in these Pacific Island myths. He brings them fire. He brings them grass. He brings them coconut trees and coconuts in different stories. And depending on an island, each island, like each version of Maui is different. And so we kind of coalesce the greatest hits to write this braggadocio song.

So jumping to where we're at today, when this comes back around, I mean, you know, these are challenging, interesting things. puzzles to unlock, these live action versions of these things. Because you want to kind of like honor what folks grew up with. You want to do that. You also want to make it worth doing. What's the reason? What's the why? Is that something you and Tommy discussed a lot?

100%. And again, like people ask me, what was your role as producer? And I said, I had one note for Thomas' producer. I said, if it's under two hours, you win the game. They're all too long. Every live action. Bless you. Our kids have to go to the bathroom.

They're kids. Yeah, it doesn't need to be the Odyssey. It doesn't need to be the Odyssey. It wasn't 90 minutes. Like, you're adding fat if it's too long. So I said that to him. But also his big Y was like, it's one thing to animate this part of the world

that never gets to see themselves on screen. It's another thing to give jobs to hundreds of Pacific Islander actors and choreographers and seamstresses. And, I mean, just like across the board. to hire this part of the world, not represent this part of the world in an animated movie, but see them on screen.

And again, like, being on that set, like I was in Motenui when they were filming where you are, I was there for most of the musical numbers. And not since in the Heights had I seen a cast where we'd yell cut, and then they would just all kind of keep singing. People are singing their own songs from their respective islands,

like to keep each other entertained between setups. People were so proud to represent their heritage, in their ancestry. And so that's the why. And you hit upon at some point the idea, and yet this often happens where there's a new musical number added to these things, but I mean, again, the why here, correct me if I'm wrong, is connecting the generations a bit. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And frankly, like, the fact that, honestly, like, I don't think a lot of people, like, a lot of people discovered Moana at home. Right. Like, there's a reason, like, that was, like, the top streamed movie in 2020. Yeah. It's still near the top of the

streaming charts, like every year. And so, you know, this is an enormous big screen experience. And Tommy delivered, like, something that belongs on a big screen. This does not feel like the actors acting the animated movie. It is its own giant, gorgeous, colorful big screen experience. So I'm excited for folks to bring their families to see it on the big screen and here in Dolby's Around. Do you hear from friends when one of your songs becomes like these crazy earworms?

Like when like, when, you know, Moana is on repeat. Like, do friends say, like, I love you, this movie's great, but my kid has watched us 20 times in a row and I need a break. Yes. And it's funny. I, you also get DMs from people. Like, my friends, sure. Yes. But like, the people you don't know that start texting you, like, I remember after Mufasa came out, I know, it was Enkanto.

And Taika Watiti was like, sent me a DM. Like, you motherfucker. We don't talk about Bruno on a loop in our house. And he was the canary in the coal line of that song. I get this like DM from Tyco, who I've met and I'm friendly with, but I don't like know that guy. And like he's like, you son of a bitch. And then he was speaking for the world.

He was speaking for the world that was. He was the first to write me. But yeah, I mean, a week doesn't go by that I don't get a video of a classroom singing how far I'll go. I mean, it has never really gone away. And that's very special. You weren't able to do Moana 2. You were working on Mufasa at the time.

And Joanne said that there's talk, there's some development on Mwana 3. Would you be potentially involved? I'm past that. I want Mawana 8. I want Mawana 8. I want Mawanna 3 presents Hobbs and Shaw. I think Mwana 3 should be called Tokyo Drift.

Like, it's about family. Every third film should have Tokyo Drift. Should have Tokyo Drift. No, I mean, honestly, like, I think they had such success with Mawanna 2 that, I think honestly, the secret sauce of the Mawana animated scores are really Mark Manchina and Opataya. You know, Opataya for me is the Lebo M of the Moana world. Like everything that comes out of him is so authentic to the world.

And, you know, he had a big hand in Moana 2 as well. And I think as long as Opataya's involved, like they're going to sound great and they're going to represent that part of the world really beautifully. I mean, you're so much a part of the Disney family, obviously. You've done a lot of work with them. Are you actively working on other Disney projects that I just don't know about yet? Am I? It's a good question. I think... Like, how many projects... We'll get to Octa, which you just wrap, the directing effort. I don't have anything right now, currently. I know that there's a world in which I would love Enkanto to come to a Broadway stage. I think that one uniquely lends itself to being on stage,

and I think they're waiting for me to be ready. I'm not ready. I've got some stuff on my plate, But I think with time, that could be a really beautiful stage show because it's this family in this house. And there's a world in which that whatever happens on stage, like that house can surprise us in lots of different ways. And I can see that one in a way that's really exciting. But there's nothing formal. There's no one attached or anything. But really, that's kind of it. That's it for my Disney docket.

I don't have anything up my sleeves. I know you're always asked about the Hamilton movie. And you've said, like, there's no rush. You're a fan of waiting when this life has lived its life in theater and around the country, et cetera. Do you think down the road, though, even of like, would Tommy be the one to direct? Would you want to direct? Have you even contemplated what that treatment would be? You know what I'm looking forward to?

I'm open to my, like, Andrew Lloyd Weber, like, let the directors do whatever they want, Renaissance. You know, for me, it's been... You want the Jelical Ball version of Hamilton? The Jellicle Ball, I would go to that. show every night if I could. I'm guest judging again. I was like, has anyone to guess judge twice because I just want to go back and be around skimble shanks? But I think that thing is so brilliant and it's not something he would have come up with. So my, you know, I never say never because I don't know what director is going to come

along and have some idea that unlocks it in a totally different way. You know, we're doing, in The Heights is getting some performances in New York for the first time since the original run at City Center this fall. And really, one of the reasons that exists is because David Mendez-Abal, who directed Mekidis off-Broadway, I thought, did such an incredible job with that show that was like,

oh, I'm very curious to see what David will do with the nights. And so Kiar and I were really excited. We went the same night, and we were really excited to see what this artist does with this material that we had our shot at and we're really proud of the show and the movie.

And like, what do you want to do? Can we go back a little bit to more about influence? because I know a lot of them. You've talked about obviously the musicals you grew up with. You talked about hip hop. You've talked about Weird Al. Outside of that stuff, because that stuff, I feel like, well covered.

Like, were you also, like, a genre kid? Like, were you reading comics? Were you reading fantasy novels? Like, what else kind of filled your brain when you were a kid? I mean, like everything. I was such a sponge. I'm the kind of person who, like, if I read a book by someone and I really like the book,

I then go read everything that I person wrote. Like, I remember being assigned, I know why the Caged Bird sings by Maya Angelou in ninth grade English. And I went to the library and read every Maya Angelou autobiography. And thank God you wrote four or five of them. Just like every other ninth grader. I'm going to read the collected works in Maya. I'm going to read the collective works. I mean, I have like old songs that are adaptations of her poems.

Like I had my Maya Angelou phase. I, my wife and I, one of the things we bonded over when we started dating was that we were both like Stephen King completists. Oh, really? And we read the Dark Tower series, I don't think, was done when we started dating. So we read it together to catch up. We are in the middle of the Brandon Sanderson Stormlight. Those things are each a thousand some odd pages. She's ahead of me.

She's on book four. I am like struggling through the flashbacks in book three. But then he ends them so good that you're like, oh God, what's going to happen? So yeah, like we're like, that's like our lane together. is like the fantasy stuff. But I remember reading Lord of the Rings and comics. I was going to say, were you Lord of the Rings kid? Yeah, I was not like a Magic the Gathering kid.

I tripped over those kids while they were on the floor playing the cards. In high school, I would always never see them around the corner. But, yeah, no, like, that's been, but like Stephen King was like a thing we bonded over big time when we started dating. Later on, I mean, the Potter books were happening when we were young adults. Like, you were heavily entirely Potter? I read the first three at jury duty. I remember it was like a book per day. and it was around the time the fourth one was coming out.

And so I sort of hopped on the train right as it was getting good. I think you told Emma once in an interview that the way Harry first met, Draco influenced a bit of Hamilton. Is that true? Absolutely. It's in the sense that like Hamilton meets another person who's very much like him. He meets Burr getting off the boat, right, in our version of it, obviously. And Burr gives him the opposite of the lesson he wants.

to learn, right? Like Draco says to Harry, like, make sure you stick to the right kind around here. And, you know, Burr says to Hamilton, talk less, smiles more. And then Hamilton sees his friends. He goes, no, I'm actually going to hang with these guys. Right, right, right. So, yes, I guess in that version, Lafayette is our Ron. Amazing. Jumping around pop culture, you're a West Wing fan. Indeed. What impacted that make on your life that you literally played the West Wing? Wait, let me pause here. Tommy snuck a West Wing reference into this movie. Wait, tell me. Mind me. Mowie hits the beach and he gets on his boat and he goes, that's what I remember. That's Leo McGarry's alcoholism line. And he snuck it into a Disney movie.

Five stars. Five stars all the way. You even played some of the theme, I think, ending Hamilton when you walked off the thing. They surprised me with the theme. On my final baths, they played the Western theme. So was that just the Sorkan dialogue? Was that just the idealism? Yeah. I fell in love with it on, I didn't see it in really. It was on like Bravo reruns back before Bravo was all reality all the time. Yeah. They would show West Wing at 11 a.m. Oh, back when I had cable. I had cable kids. I'm really millennial. I'm a geriatric millennial. Have you cut the court? No, no cable anymore? I'm the last one. It's me. Just us.

Yeah, it's me and Pat Kiernan on New York One. Exactly. I'm watching the papers to you every morning. Absolutely. And so, so yeah, no, I fell in love with it watching the reruns and then I kind of caught up to it as it was happening. Then they elected a Latino president. And I was like, well, this is my favorite show for life. So yeah, so I, yeah, it is that dialogue. And dialogue as music would really kind of made me tune in. And were you a comic book kid? I mean, like any New York kid, were you with a Spider-Man fan? I can't claim to be like the completest.

My buddy James Monroe Eagelhardt can, like, tell you every variant plot. Like, I'm like a basic, like, I have the four Death of Superman comics. Yeah, that's what I was your time. That was a big deal. I was a big Spider-Man fan. Like any New York centered superhero I was very into. I was doing the math. You did say once that you turned down a Marvel role summer of 2016 when you were leaving Hamilton.

I did my due diligence. I did some research. Can you guess it? Yeah, I think I can guess. I'm going to guess it's Spider-Man Homecoming. They were shooting. It was that. And then part-wise, is it like Martin Starr's right?

I would have been so miscast. Is that the role? It's not Martin Starr. Is it the vulture? Is it the Michael Hitz? It was vulture, and Kevin Faiyi told me the entire plot over the phone, and I was like, oh, and then they get to the door, and it's her dad, and I went, oh, on the phone.

Again, you're the canary in the coal mine. I was really the canary in the coal mine, and I said, when does it shoot? And he goes basically the moment you step off stage in Hamilton. And I went, well, I would really like to, I love these movies. but I would really like to stay married. Yeah. So I cannot do this. And I mean, God, that would have been terrible.

No, it would have been great in a different way. No, Michael Keaton was perfect. Like, they found exactly who they needed. That scene in the car between, you would have been. Yeah, yeah, it would have been. And I'm very glad because I, you know, Michael Keaton and that was perfect. I have no regrets. I needed a vacation so badly.

So it was not life right. And I think I would have been deeply miscast in it. So speaking of that, we're talking on a very interesting day. Do you know what today? Today's July 9th. Is that day meaning anything to you? It's when we started previews, right? Ten years ago to this day was your last performance.

Oh, wow. In Hamilton, stepping off that stage. How about that? Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. So we kind of already referenced it a little bit, but like that is a moment. That is a huge shift. You're coming off of like a run like no one has ever had, basically.

And I'm not playing Walter. After. Right. And did not. By the way, though, Kevin does say, he goes, when I told you that over the phone, that's when I knew the movie was going to work because of your reaction.

That's amazing. So I take, that's my little footnote in history. It was me going, oh. He should always call you with every plot, just to test it out. Yes, he should. So you've talked about this shift. This amazing kind of strange moment

that very few people, I mean, people have, but you had really the ultimate version of it where, like, you come off of Hamilton and you have this world of opportunity, and that is a blessing and it is also a curse in some ways. Did you have a mantra, like what you wanted to do with your life and career coming off that stage on July 9, 10 years ago? Sure. And it came out of a very real conversation I had with Vanessa where it was like, hey, we don't have to work to pay the rent anymore.

Yeah. And that's a crazy experience that I'm incredibly grateful for to be able to have that conversation in the first place. So it was sort of like, it's not the what do we have to do. It's like, what do we want to do? And a couple of things. One, my first love was movies and directing movies. I was a kid with a camcorder in the 1980s and then a, you know, hiate camcorder when that happened. And so I really, like, went to college to study film in theater and then, like, fell into theater because it was financially more feasible than studying film.

Sure. Like, I can't afford a senior film. So I'm just gonna make a lot of theater. And so I really kind of treated the years after being in Hamilton as like the film school I couldn't afford to go to. So I went to work with Rob Marshall and Mary Poppins Returns,

not because I had some everlasting love for Mary Poppins, but I mean, who doesn't love Mary Poppins, but because I wanted to watch Rob Marshall direct, a big musical movie. And I learned a lot. And then year two of that film school is working with Tommy on Fosse Verdon, where we get to make, you know, hours of TV about the guy who was a consummate theater maker

and a consummate filmmaker at the same time and how that happened and how he was able to do that with Gwen Verdon. And then year three is really John Chu and in the Heights and watching someone else adapt to my work and living in my neighborhood and getting to walk to set in a different part of the neighborhood every morning. And I learned a lot from all three of those directors. Like I felt ready to direct tick-tick-boom by the time I'd been through those experiences.

Rob is, you know, an inveterate planner. Like he, like you have touched every scene by the time cameras are rolling. It's three months of rehearsal. And, you know, Tommy, in the way he chopped up Sam Watson's Fosse biography and said, actually, no, Gwen needs to be

an equal partner in this. And played with the timeline of their love. story was really like really educationally did that with Stephen Levinson his his showrunner and then and then John Chu like it was magic watching him work because he's a planner and you've got Christopher Scott who's an incredible choreographer and the team and the corpse of choreographers they have but then he's also someone who looks up and goes what magic is happening on the day and so you get the shot of you know the superintendent with the mop and in the heights which is my

favorite shot in the entire thing and is not in the script yeah it's just magic that was happening on that day, you get champagne being sung live in an apartment because on the day, he went, holy shit, it's quiet. It's never quiet in Washington. I was. Like, you can never actually record live sound in that neighborhood in the summer, but it was quiet. So he was like, can we do this live? Because it was a winner. Let's do it live. Amazing. And so, you know, it's nine takes of champagne and take nine is what you see in the movie. Was there any kind of period of morning after that film, which was extraordinary. John did an amazing job with that film. It was kind of kind of a victim of pandemic times.

100%. And I think that for me, that was the ultimate lesson in the weekend release is not even the first draft of the legacy of the movie. And, you know, you want everything to be a big hit. But it has continued to grow in the consciousness in the years since. I was just watching a Martin Short's documentary, which is so gorgeous. And there's that great anecdote of John Mullaney being like, listen, we all grew up. watching Three Amigos on a loop

and Martin Short goes, well, we lost a golden child. I was like, no, no, no, buddy. No one's talking about the golden child. Like the legacy of Three Amigos is so enormous. And that's been, you know, the case on a lot of movies I've worked on, you know. Moana was like a hit, but it wasn't frozen. Right.

Like that was basically the conversation coming out of that opening weekend, well, it's not frozen. Right. But it has gone on to just like be so meaningful to so many people's lives. And I've watched that, within the Heights as well.

Well, and the trajectory of these like ups and ups and huge ups and then downs, whatever, in anyone's career, but yours in particular is a very unusual, like, if you were charted out, it's like in the Heights alone would be the highlight of anybody's career. I thought I was so famous in 2009. You were. But like, it never left the arts and leisure page. Right. You were in a certain world, you were huge.

Right. And then you have this outside, this thing that is just like once in a, like in a century thing that happens with Hamilton. Yeah. And I'm, like, you've probably had a couple instances of, like, is this it moments? Of, like, well, what's left to do in a way? I'm 28. I'm 35.

Like, what's the rest of my life even look like? Yeah, it coincides with when I call my shrink and go, I'm ready to come back to work. We have more work to do. Yeah, you know, it's funny. Like, I have a, I've been seeing my shrink since I was 19, but like at moments in my life. Like, I'm not someone who goes every week. And the first time was, when I broke up with my high school college girlfriend

and was like, who am I? And here's all the stuff that's been building up in my brain. And you put it out on the table and you go, oh, everyone goes through that, got it. The second time I called him was in between off-Broadway and Broadway in the Heights. My show I'd spent my 20's writing was on a stage and I feel the same.

It didn't fix it. It didn't fix the hole in me, what's going on. Right, well, that's the key. And then I went back again, like, after Hamilton came out on Disney Plus in 2020 and we were all sort of locked down, and I had nothing to do but drink from the fire hose of everyone's opinion on everything I'd ever done in my life,

which is good, bad, like, runs the gamut. And I was like, this is really bad. And like, I'm just home with nothing to do but reading terrible things about myself. And so, like, you know, and like, I think where I've gotten to is sort of like, you know, I'm so grateful and lucky to make stuff. Yeah.

And so, like, there are people who make stuff and there are people who talk about the people will make stuff and I'd rather be the person who make stuff. As long as I get to make stuff, I'm happy. More happy, say, confused coming up. The world of Sonic the Hedgehog has been thrust into a not-so-dark, not-so-stormy, hard-boiled detective story that probably nobody saw coming.

Follow Sonic and the Intrepid Chaotic's detective agency as they take on their biggest case yet. This high-flying action. impact adventure will take them across the world, fighting for every quill they can fight. It's one heck of a tale, which is good, because this story might be the only thing that can save their lives. Well, if that's all, I can just dispose of you. Wait, what? All will be revealed in. Sonic the Hedgehog presents The Chaotic's Case Files. Listen now, wherever you get

at your podcasts. When the chaotics are on the case. Goodbye, Kyle. Did the sound of those words call to you like Pavlov's dog? Then you might enjoy our podcast Turtle Time. Every week you can join me, Riley Hamilton, and my co-host, Amy Scarlotta, as we cover the most pressing Bravo news and dig into the new episodes to answer important questions like, who the hell is Adrian Maloof in this world?

Listen to Turtle Time on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you've, get your podcasts. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. The place that Hamilton holds in your life, which I mean, again, it's always going to be with you every single day, the rest of your life. Yeah, it's the first line of the obit. And it's smart to reconcile that now. But it's also fascinating to look back at the time when it was at its apex, right? That 2016 moment. You're coming off stage. Obama's in the White House. It's a different, it's a different time. 2026 we sit here. I mean, ICE, Trump, we don't need to get super political, but it is, you know what to say, a much different time.

Can you kind of reconcile us sort of like what the show means to you now, given where we're at versus where we were 10 years ago? Yeah. And I think for me, it's interesting to me that it gets tagged as like the Obama era musical, I think mainly because I debuted that first song in the White House. Always going to be connected there. Always going to be connected in the same way that like Camelot. and JFK are connected.

And I'm cool with that. But it's been around, I mean, it was only around the Obama era for one year. It's been around for 10 plus years and people are still finding something in it. And I think that's because I don't think it was, I don't think I ever painted

as rosy at pictures. People think I painted. For me, the big political takeaway from Hamilton is like, they were flawed people, they made a flawed country and we still live in that flawed country and we're constantly taking steps forward

and back. It feels like a really dark time right now. My big thing with Hamilton on this side of nearly 11 years of it living in the world is the joy I have in how many artists of color get their first credit on this show.

I look at the Tony race this past year and I get to see Josh Henry who started as Chris Jackson's understudy and in the Heights as like just giving this towering performance. And opposite him is Nicholas Christopher, who was our first Benny and our first national tour of Heights. And has been George Washington and Burr for us for Hamilton for years. I look over and I see Hannah Cruz, who started as Eliza on the national tour of Hamilton.

And it goes back to Maya Angelou weirdly. In her second or third biography, she writes about being the principal dancer in the first European tour of Porgy and Bess. And it was the first time leaving the country and seeing race relations outside the insanity that is the United States of America and moving freely through the world and being part of a company. And every time I visit with a Hamilton cast, I think who are the Maya Angelou's in this crew for whom I am a footnote? Hamilton is a footnote. It's a stepping stone. It's a foot in the door to their incredible career and journey wherever that takes them.

And I could say that about our incredible original cast. I think of Ephraim Sykes and Ariana DeBos and obviously Leslie and Renee. But I also think of, you know, Carl Clemens Hopkins on Hacks, who was in our tour of Hamilton. I mean, there's so many people for whom it's just a foot in the door, and I'm really grateful to have provided that. Expectations as you could, as you would imagine, are sky high for your next production, which is going to be the Warriors next spring. I don't know if that was the Walter Hill version was a big influence or book. 100%. Like older brother, like friend's older brother with the VHS cassette.

a set when I was four. Totally. So gender swap, the music's already out there to a degree. I would not write that music. Were you at in terms of like getting this on its feet and figuring this out? Yeah, Issa and I have been, I mean, I have basically never stopped working on it. The first goal was we just didn't want to solve for X and Y at the same time.

Right? Like, does this work as a musical is a host of questions? Does, do, can we write songs that tell this story in a really compelling way? was solving for X. And we released the album and we got these all-stars who would never do eight shows a week. You know, Miss Lorne Hill, Buster Rhymes,

Nass, Mark Anthony, to play these voices that have been careening around in our heads. And then since then, we've just been slowly assembling the team we think that can solve for why, which is how do you sing and fight

at the same time? How do you make a journey from the Bronx to Coney Island exciting on a stage and surprising? And so we've got an incredible team with Jenny Coons and Andy Blankinbuehler, and they're, the creative team they've assembled. And we're really excited to share it. So you referenced, you recently wrapped production on your second film, Tickdook Boone, was amazing, by the way.

Thank you. And here's performance, remarkable. But you've collected, I guess, eight actors for Octet, which doesn't have a huge profile outside of like a smaller theater community. No, it was, yeah, it's true. It was just beloved, it's like a cult that loves Octet, and I'm in that cult. I've seen every production. Amazing. And you've collected an amazing group that includes the likes of Rachel Zegler, Jonathan Groff,

many. They're all exceptional actors. So this is fresh in your mind. And it's interesting, you were talking a little bit about wanting to be the person that makes the thing than rather than the person that talks about the thing. And that sounds like it's very much on your mind with this film, this internet addiction story. Can you talk to me a little about the themes of the reason for you?

It's a brilliant musical by Dave Malloy, who, you know, wrote Natasha Pierre in the Great Comet of 1812, which is where I first saw Pippa Sue. Actually, not, I was going to say on the stage, but it was in a tent, eating pierogies because it was like this amazing, funky off-Broadway show that began at Ars Nova. And so he's written this brilliant musical

about a recovery group for internet addicts. And I kind of describe it as like, chorus line meets the matrix. It's these eight people, they all have different reasons for being there. One is addicted to games. one is addicted to porn one is addicted to

you know there's there's a woman who had like a racist meltdown that went viral and is addicted to reading negative things about herself her song is called refresh and and so it was

I really just first was like respectful of like that journey of the show and its trajectory in the world and once they got to the phase where they were licensing the show I went, can I please make this as a movie? Because more people should know about this incredible score. It's only gotten more prescient with the advent of AI and the conversations we're having now around

technology. It was already talking about AI and all these things back in 2018 when Dave was writing it. And so, and I think the other thing I learned on Tick-Tick-Bomb was I really love making movies where I'm working with actors in a space and we're figuring it out together. Well, that's what you've referenced this. This is interesting because I would imagine you're not wanting for opportunities. You could work on a bigger scale.

And I've been offered some big ones. I would imagine. And I just think, I don't want to be in effects meetings all day. Right. Because I've seen it. I've seen the animation meetings. Yeah. I've seen Tommy working out the effects for this film.

You don't need, Rob Marshall knows how to make that kind of job. They're the best in the world at it. And like, let me make the funky little thing that no one else can get made. You know, we independently financed Octet. Like, we just raised the money because we really believed in it and believed it should exist as a film and that there were things film could do that were unique to this property,

and then I think we'll hopefully advance the theatrical life of the show. Is there a movie musical that's not held in high esteem that you go to bat for with friends and family that you say, like, people miss this one. People didn't give this one it's due. There's a ton. Well, it's funny, like, there's all...

I have two different lists. I'm trying, aching to show. share with you. There's like the list of the like musicals that are so good but the adaptation doesn't capture what made them great and I think I'm allowed to talk about them I think the people who made them no longer are with us like Mano La Mancha is like

a great musical and has a great lead performance by Peter O'Toul Sophia Loren but like that movie like doesn't hang but it was all I had yes so I adore that movie yes you know I think that I think chorus line is do like chorus line is one of the best musicals ever The bones are there.

The bones are there. The movie just like, it was like, it doesn't work for me. Yeah. I always bring up guys and dolls. Do you defend Brando's singing is not the best. Like, holy lady, that was rule for doubt. You know what? That is one I'd go to that for.

Me too. I think it's legit, great. It also is like, like, it's this kind of filmmaking that doesn't really exist anymore. And like, they just trust like a long tracking shot to introduce Time Square. Time Square in that movie. And he's thrilling in that. Like, yeah, they had to sew his syllables together to make it work, but, like, I'm also not, like,

the absolutist of, like, bring back lip-sinking. If someone else can sing it better than, like, the actress who's gonna act the hell out of it, like, never enough in The Greatest Showman. God bless Rebecca Ferguson for being, like, get an opera singer in here. I'm playing an opera singer. I'm gonna bring your film down.

Like, someone else. And she looks incredible delivering that song. Like, whatever makes the movie work wins. We're not doing a live show. Do you understand, we reference like Jellicle Ball, and like, I feel like it's okay. No one's really going to bat for, sadly, the cat's adaptation years ago at this point. But, like, when you see something like that, you're like, oh, I get why, from a filmmaking standpoint, this just didn't, like, even with the best of intentions, great cast. Yeah, God bless.

You know, it's, what's brilliant about Jellicle Ball, though, is without changing word of text and changing the people who are performing it, you solve the show. You're like, oh, it's a naming ritual. And in this queer drag culture where everyone creates their own names and creates their own houses and creates their own clans, suddenly the world of cats makes sense. Like, it makes sense in a new third way. Yeah. That is thrilling. The original production was so genius because as soon as you walked in, you saw a giant Campbell soup can and a giant tire. You're like, oh, we're in cat's eye view.

And we're witnessing a secret ritual. Like, let me explain to you for those who wonder why this thing ran for 19 years. we felt like we were witnessing a secret ritual. We were seeing the sexiest dancers on earth, acting like cats. And it felt like we were witnessing this thing we weren't supposed to be witnessing. It really was like this voyeuristic, incredible thing

that also required like no prior knowledge. Like, we're just here, we're watching the cats go. And then Jellicle Ball comes along and it adds this other layers. that like, like Rumtum Tugger as a song is like, all right, this is about a cat whose name Rom Tum Tugger. Rumtum Tugger in a walkoff. Suddenly.

Suddenly you're like, oh, all right, Rumsum Tugger, get your best life. So it really is a genius adaptation, but like that other one ran 19 years for a reason. Like they're, they, it's amazing to like get to see both versions. Where are you at on kind of the so-called jukebox musical, like the mama meas of the world, etc? Can they work? I think they rise and fall on the wits. of their adapters.

You know, I've seen a lot that are not for me. But I'm a huge fan of Ann Juliet because I thought David did an incredible job of surprising us with when those needle drops are. And as someone who grew up with all those Max Martin tunes, like when the guy turns her and goes, I love you. And she goes, I think I did it again.

I remember thinking, oh, this is how my parents felt about Mamma Mia. Because I didn't grow up with Abba. So I was just really confused by that show When I saw, I was like, what's going on? What's this mega mix? I don't know these songs. But when I saw it in Juliet, I was like, now I get it.

Is there, I want to come back as we kind of like, Corrine towards the end that, like, when I think of the decade that's come since Hamilton, you kind of reference kind of trying to figure out what your ethos was. Also part of it, when I look at some, like, the credits, it's like, Lynn is living his best life. He's, like, living, like, fantasy camp.

Like, he gets to do, like, a Star Wars little bit. He gets to do Duck Tales. He does a WrestleMania thing. Like, is there an aspect of it? of that where it's like, yeah, like these amazing opportunities. I'm a little in my Shaquille O'Neal era. Like, I'm doing side quests. Why not?

I think the only, I think, again, I think the work I try to make is like the work that I would be thinking about forever if I didn't make it. Yeah. Like that's the impulse for working on warriors for making Octet as a movie. And then there are the things that come along where you'd kick yourself forever if you didn't get to be ringside with Dom Mysterio. Or, or, you know, like get to be. be on set with JJ while he's making one of those massive things.

We end every happy, say I confused episode the same way with our profoundly random questions. Ready for this? Okay. Dogs or cats? Dogs. My condolences. I know your dog was very close to you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how to write. You know, that was the thing. I'm someone who's like not superstitious about writing, but our dog crept into our life and she was the first listener on everything and just would sit there

while I was singing to myself. And so I'm still struggling with how to write without her. I can imagine. What do you collect? I collect. What do I collect? I mean, right now, you're talking to me the day after my producer, John Skidmore, on Octet sent me the He-Man, Castle Grey Skull, Popcorn. I mean, better late than never, right?

But, like, I got the cup. I got the, I'm a, still got all the He-Man's, still got all the G.I. Joe's. I'm my parents' house. Did you? I just had Danny McBride on the podcast. You know, he's written, he's going to do a G.I. Joe movie. Danny McBride. This is very exciting.

Is he playing Duke? Like, who does he play? And that is he Sergeant Slaughter? Well, in the fantasy camp for Wynn, who does Lynn play? Snake eyes. I don't have to say a word. You don't even know if it's me in there? State guys are Storm Shadow.

Obviously. Favorite video game of all time? Ooh, that's a good one. It's probably the most hours longed is NBA Jam. Yep. That was like every day of college, we had a, at the campus center, four quarters was four quarters. And Ewing would just go crazy.

I think like the programmers had a bias towards Ewing. So like, I'm thrilled the Nix won in real life, but the NICS had been winning in NBA Jam for a very long time. Ewing and Starks. Yeah, yeah. Ewing, Starks, Oakley, that era, that was me. So I feel a little lighter on my feet these days, do you? Absolutely.

It's, yeah. I think it was, Michael Che was like, it's like, it's like, Reverse 9-11. Oh my God, that's such. Like, everyone in the city is like, hi, how are you? Knicks and five. Nixon 5. There'll be a lot of tattoos that say that now, I think. What's the wallpaper on your phone? The wallpaper on my phone is my friend's kid, Natalie, flipping the bird. She's seven. She's just showing off the gems on her finger.

Obviously. So she's just kind of casual doing this. The Dakota Johnson Memorial question. She asked me this. I ask everybody. Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt? I'll take the mouthful of bees. Interesting. Minority opinion. Yeah, well, my first bee sting was like deep in my ear, so I just feel like I could handle it. Okay. How long do I have the... We haven't really gone to figure this out. I was going to say, like, I would do the B in my butt for 30 seconds. Right. But like, if it's 30 seconds each, I'll take the mouthful.

Okay. We'll range that afterwards. The removal feels easier. Last actor you were mistaken for? Never happened? When I was young, I got Freddie Prince Jr., and he was so dreamy and I'm so grateful. And I think the last one I got... When my son was little, he thought I was Ray Romano.

Time has not been behind. Worst note, a director has ever given you as an actor. When I, my first TV gig was as a bellhop in The Sopranos. And the director was great, and Gandalfino was great. One of the other actors came up to me while I was getting makeup, and he was like, hey, kid, when you do the line, do it with like a real like fucked up Latin accent. So we have something to react to.

Oh, no. And he walked, and I, my heart dropped. And he walked away. And the makeup guy goes, ignore him. He tries to note all the actors. By the way, what's fucked up Latin accent? I don't know. I didn't do it.

And finally, in the spirit of happy, second fuse. An actor who makes you happy would be. Jack Black. Great. Joy, every time. Movie that makes you sad. I'm going to go with like a little scene one called the Saint of Fort Washington

starring Matt Dillon and Danny Glover and it's about homelessness in New York and it's one of those masterpieces you can only watch once because it's so devastating. It's like I have a list. It's like Requiem for a Dream. St. of Fort Washington. There's just those movies that are like you're like, this is a perfect movie. I can never watch it again because I cannot expose myself. Dancer in the dark.

Yes. 100%. Great movie. Can't watch it again. Yep. And finally, a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. I'm a collector of, I have a group chat with two people,

Chuck Wendig, the writer Chuck Wendig, and my friend Miranda Bergen. And the name of the group chat is, I'd eat that. And whenever a weird food comes out, we send it to each other. And it's like, would you eat it or would you not eat it? They sent me a Dorito-flavored liquor. Oh, no. And I passed it on to my wife.

saying my birthday is January 16th. I have it. I have two bottles of it. It's gross. But it smells just like Doritos. But the last one of those I had, because we sometimes buy them, was I had a pizza-flavored soda.

It was bad. It was just like watery tomato sauce. It was terrible. It really confused me. We've gone too far in science. We'll end there and go full circle. Congratulations on Milana back in a different, bigger,

if it's possible way. It's going to be great. A new audience, bring back the old audience. It is a spectacle that demands to be seen on the big screen. So congratulations all around. Thank you. And I'm especially happy that it got you on the podcast, finally. A long time coming.

Yeah, hopefully first of many. I'm really a big fan of the show. Please. I appreciate it. Thanks, man. Thanks. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh Hey y'all It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair Ever order furniture online and wonder

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