Happy Sad Confused - Martin Freeman

Episode Date: April 23, 2018

If you've listened to "Happy Sad Confused" before, you know we love our Brits around here so of course it was inevitable that we'd welcome Martin Freeman to the show. And as you might expect, Martin does not disappoint, in this fun and meandering conversation about the "Sherlock" actor's career, fame, and which Hobbit characters he'd fuck, marry, and kill. Martin is currently appearing in "Ghost Stories" (in select theaters) and "Cargo" (debuting on Netflix on May 18th).  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Say I Confused, Martin Freeman on two new films, Cargo and Ghost Stories, plus the office, The Hobbit, and much more. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused. We love our Brits around here. You guys know I'm an Anglophile.

You know I love these guys. And, well, add Martin Freeman. the list. I mean, I already knew I loved Martin Freeman, but my gosh, in the next hour, I think you're going to hear a love affair begin. Martin Freeman's great. This was such an awesome interview, a conversation, really. I mean, we really clicked and had a blast. And, you know, of course we all love Martin Freeman from his various, you know, amazing different incarnations in his career he's had. He first came to fame, of course, in the office, and he will always be linked to that show, and it stands the test of time. I could watch that show over

and over again. But, you know, count, you know, The Hobbit Films, Hitchhiker's Guide, all the way up to and including, you know, his collaborations with Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg. He's appeared in all three of the Coronado trilogy, most notably in The World's End. And now in two new films, two new films for Your Eyes and Ears. He's appearing in Cargo, which is debuting on Netflix, 18th, so check that out. It's a post-apocalyptic tale, plays a dad taking care of his child in really extreme circumstances. It's definitely a tense thriller sort of thing. And also this great film called Ghost Stories, which is now out in select cities, select theaters, also on VOD. This is a great film, a really surprising, interesting horror film recalls the kind of the hammer horror of the

past. It takes twists and turns. It kind of begins as a story about a debunker, a guy that's kind of debunking paranormal activities. And you think it's, you think it's one thing, and it turns into something else. Martin is not necessarily the lead in the film, but he plays a very pivotal, surprising, interesting role. I highly recommend this film. It's already gotten great reviews thanks to its release back in the UK, and it's now out here in the States. So trust the reviews. This one's a special little surprising film for horror fans, for suspense fans, got a great style, a bit of a good sense of humor to it, and Martin Freeman. So that's ghost stories. Check it out.

Anyway, as I said, Martin Freeman couldn't have been more awesome. This guy is funny. He's smart. He acknowledges, you know, we talk a bit about like sort of his reconciliation with celebrity and the downside to that. But, you know, in a very, like, knowing way, you know, he's first to admit that these are problems that are not in the top 1,000 problems for a human being. But I was all the more delighted that we had this kind of great conversation considering, I know press isn't his favorite thing to do. But, you know, just a good, just a smart guy, talented guy, and really open and interesting in this chat. So if you can't tell already, I'm the new president of the Merton Freeman fan club.

of a feeling. He will not be a stranger to this podcast, hopefully in the future. As always, my solemn reminder to you in exchange for this wonderful free content for your eyes and ears, mostly your ears. If you're watching the podcast, you're probably doing it wrong, is to spread the good word. Go on iTunes, rate, review, subscribe. It means a lot. And, you know, I've been looking at your reviews. We've started to dabble in having some celebrities read reviews from time to time that will continue. So there's a little bit more incentive for you. Write a nice little review, and who knows?

A big-time, cool movie or TV star might just be reading it on a future podcast. I mean, the giving never stops here on Happy Sad Confused. And I give you this, Mr. Martin Freeman. Martin Freeman is in my office. We're playing games associated with my silly board of New Yorkers. Because why not? I love your border in New Yorkers.

Because there's a lot of names on there. There are a lot. And what's good is you know all of them. Or one knows all of them. They're all proper names, aren't they? And you can almost make them out from my third grade level. That's your writing, is it? Sadly, yes.

Well, we say writing. Cave painting. I try to occasionally devote a little effort and just pretend to be an adult. But why bother? How many of those people, if you were going to be honest? Yeah. Or even, yeah, as if you would tell me, because there's a micro-no, please. How many of those people do you think you have had at some point a crush on?

Oh, a crush on? Yeah. That's interesting. It's got to be a fair amount, isn't there a fair amount? Yeah, I'm not so very lovely people on that. I have very low standards. But also, these are high, I mean, this is hard. John Crosinski?

I mean, I would give up my wife in a second for that man. Yeah. Kevin Klein. I mean, it's littered. It's littered with great names. Yeah. We're a proud city. Yeah, well, as you should be. It's a very good city. I like this city a lot.

Um, I'm so pleased to have you here today to, uh, push the good word on two of your lovely new films, uh, especially considering, uh, I thought there might be some ill will considering one of the, I haven't, we haven't talked that many times, but we did have one infamous encounter in which I, and you reminded me of this. I'm shocked by your memory. In which I made you, uh, play fuck merry kill with, uh, hobbit characters. No, because I came in and met you and met you. And then I thought, no, we've met before. You're that guy that I swore I would never speak to again. But no, you have to understand. But no, you have to understand. I'm sure you do understand, hence you're playing those games, that went in the middle of a... That sort of junk hit tour, it's quite a nice breath of fresh air. We can just play something childish and stupid. I'm glad you take it that way. Because at least that's three questions

that I hadn't been asked that day. Do you know what I mean? Oh, wait, I have to actually use my brain. It's for the most absurd purpose possible. And it wasn't really about Tolkien. It wasn't really about Midlark. It was just about who out of the cast that I would do those things. To recap, just to let you know, I looked up with your answers.

the question was fuck Marikil for Smauk, an unnamed orc and I have Sauron What do you think you answered? Do you have any guesses? I mean... Maybe it's changed. You've changed in the last few years. What? Well, Sauron is pure evil.

I think I said that. He's pure malevolent evil. Yeah. Smog at least has a nice voice. Yeah. And is charming. Yeah. I might marry Smog

and kill... You're spot on. Yeah. sour on and just have sex with an unnamed ork. Yeah. Yeah. Wise then, wise today. Yeah, yeah. If it's good for then, it's good throughout the ages.

Well, I think we're done here today. Thank you for coming by. You didn't give me a very nice choice, to be fair. That was not a very nice choice. You should be pleased because your old buddy, I've kind of stopped playing the games on the junket circuit because I frankly felt like there's a certain point where you don't want to be known as that guy. It's fun, but it also gets a little absurd.

But I played that same game with Ricky Interbase a night at the museum film, of all things, and the choices were even harder than yours. Were they? They were Adolf Hitler, Mao. And that is, in fact, the sound that came out of Ricky's... Yeah, yeah.

Who was the third one on? Or Gandhi. Well, that's funny. There were two sets. One was the Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Mother Teresa. That was one set of three, and the other was three dictators. Three bad people. Oh, wow. So think about that during the podcast.

We'll return to it at the end. I'm thinking of very little else most of my life. No. Pulis has nixed it. She's earned her keep for the day. Yeah, fine. You can keep the ones you are. I'll go with the ones.

Sauron. I'll go with Sauron. You can imagine Ben Stiller's face when I tried that. Didn't work out too well. Which names did you give him? I gave him all of them and he was like, checking out. Ricky, it's all you. Right.

Okay. It's the part he was born to play. Exactly. So, okay, so you've been doing the press thing. You've probably done the leg in, in the UK, Because the ghost stories has come out. Yes, indeed, yeah. I saw you share some time with Join the Rock Johnson.

Yeah, yeah, and Graham Norton. Have you become lifelong friends? I feel like that's a friendship I want to see explored. He was very nice. I liked him for the little time I spent with him. He was lovely. And my kids were very excited, particularly my son. Because I've done Graham's show a number of times.

And, you know, my kids are interested. You know, both me and their mama actors. And, you know, we're doing okay, thank God. And they like what we do. But when I said to Joseph, oh, I'm doing Graham Norton with Dwayne Johnson. He looked and he didn't believe me for a fair time because he thought, I must be joking.

He was very excited. So he had Dwayne Johnson and he had Miss Moneypenny. And he was a big fan of, he's a big fan of Bond as well. So to have Naomi Harris and Dwayne Johnson. He didn't care that much about Roger Daltry. That was more my thing. Well, something for everybody. Exactly.

Yeah. Well, for a kid, I would imagine. I mean, Dwayne is like a, he's a living, he doesn't seem real. No, I'm sure. Yeah, he is like a larger than life. Yeah, he is a big. fella and I'm not a big fella so when I'm on the when I'm on the sofa with so like I did it with Anthony Joshua a few you know the headweight champion and yeah I looked that's just not fair both of us look like freaks I think we both look like we could have been in a Victorian circus um is there you seem like a pretty even keel guy in that like do you get excited by meeting people at this point you said mentioned adultery is someone like that because I know music is is a first love for you yeah definitely some people yeah and it tends to be so far it tends to be more musicians i'm not looking at my watch

so how long is this shit going to go on um no sorry i thought i felt a bit of fluff um it tends to be more musicians that i get very excited about but if you know i've never met you know some of my biggest acting heroes i met michael kane the other week for a short time and he was without question one of the people who made me want to be an actor as a kid sure and and i was very pleased to meet him I was very very excited and I sat down he was sitting with Edgar right I know Edgar so I came over

said I'm so sorry to interrupt and they were very gracious and I of course please it's nice to meet you and I said and I put my hand out and said I'm Michael and he went no I'm Michael I was like yes that was clue one I was probably a bit nervous

and he was very gracious and lovely but if Dustin Hoffman walked in or if whoever you know then I would I would have a similar musician style thing It's just music was my thing before anything else was my thing. So, yeah, from reading up on you, it was music. I mean, if anything, acting might have been the third choice beyond music and professional squash player.

Oh, yeah, for a while I thought I was, yes, I thought I would be a squash player, yeah, because I loved it and I was very good at it. And I was good immediately at it, and I was a very, very physically fit kid. I trained a lot. I played squash hours a day, and then I was doing circuit training and running and swimming and all of that. And it looked like it was going that way, and they just fell out of love. with it in my later on in my teens and thank God I did because then I joined a youth theatre right in my neighborhood and um you know my career as a squash player would have been over at 31 and I would have earned 12 pounds you know so um thankfully there's a bit more

longevity and a little bit more yeah well and relieved also that presumably the fire has not gone out in this profession that you saw and seemingly I mean I can see why having you know the nature of what you do is constantly fresh if you're doing it right and if you've achieved a certain level of success. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, if you're lucky enough to be able to choose things and lucky enough to be able to say no more than you say yes, then it's an absolutely joyful job. It really is, it's a good job. It's a lovely way to live

and to make a living, you know, and again, I say not falsely, modestly, if you are lucky enough to make a living because obviously most people, it's a lot of, of people doing this job and most of them are not well off right and and some very talented people that are not well off of course yeah absolutely yeah um so yeah it's yeah it's very good fortune to be

able to pay the rent when you were in drama school and you attended what in your early 20s right um i mean looking back is there a rhyme or reason to the people that quote unquote succeeded that made a go of it and have achieved whatever level of success is it how you know when you look back How much of it is luck and how much of it is sheer raw talent, you think? I mean, I have to believe, you know, I think we have to believe that some of it is sheer raw talent. Totally, don't mean? Especially if you're doing well. Yeah.

In my case, of course, yeah. For the rest of them, yeah. But this asshole is not talented at all. Yes, I think some of it definitely is you. Yeah. And some of it is good fortune, of course, and timing and, you know, going in the right door and, you know, meeting that right person who led to that person. 15 people down the line introduce me to Ricky Jervase or whoever, whoever. I mean, are you a believer in making your own luck in being the...

Yes, without question. And I think, really, I think we all do. I think when we are being very modest, overly, like Englishly modest, not Americanly, but when you're being Englishly modest. You're trying to do a New Yorker, a neurotic New Yorker, okay, so I'm the exception. I can go toe with you. When you're being Englishly modest or New Yorker modest. New Yorkers aren't modest?

Well, there are a couple different breeds. There's many different breeds. I walked out of a like 1970s Woody Allen film. I literally came off the screen, Purple Rose of Cairo style. No, fair enough, okay. Fair enough, yeah. Modest to you is something to aspire to. Yes, exactly, one day.

If you end up being modest, you're being a bit too big-headed. What an asshole. So we sometimes we say, oh, it's only luck. It's all luck. And I think that's just not true. It's not true. You know, of course some of it is luck, and some of it is good fortune and the heavens smiling on you.

no, it's your decision-making process. It's how you, frankly, it's how you behave. You know, because you've got to do it. You've got to do the job. And if you're an idiot or not very good or both, then please, God, you'll get found out. You know, and that's how we hope those people do get weeded out. They don't all get weeded out. Right.

Most do, though. So, yeah, it's luck and skill. And judgment, you know, it's your taste as well. I'm a big believer in taste and trying to execute your taste. Is your profession more forgiving to inappropriate behavior? And by that, I don't mean anything like, you know, literally like, I'm talking about felonies. I'm just talking about being an asshole. Does it reward, hopefully?

You mentioned good behavior. You know, generally speaking, the people that come in here are very polite and nice. I'm sure, yeah. I can see from your board, they all look like good people. They do. Then again, it also behooves them to be nice to me because I'm the one that's going to tell tales. True, true, true. Oh, yes, you're right.

He's a prick. Green, five down. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That genuinely was a joke. Because now I'm looking at green. Green, no, green, the, on the third. Solid green.

Five down, one, two, three. And I don't know him at all. You know what? And that's a joke. That was a joke. That was a joke. Between the two of us. Honestly, I'm going to say, that joke would say it.

That's the prick on that wall. You're kidding. I swear to God. That's a mate. I am Darren. I am Darren. Who would have thought? No, seriously, that's, in private company, that's the one.

Of course, when people ask me. Of course. Well. For the listeners, he means Joe Biden. We don't. We don't mean Joe Biden. He's not on the ball. Joe Biden's not in showbets and recreation.

He'd had the great guest bar. Yeah, but it's not Joe Biden. That's so interesting. Because I did, this isn't going out to the public, is it? It's fine. This is just two guys with licorice lollipops in front of them. Sounds delicious. It does.

And yours is slightly bigger. But mine's more rough, right? It's growing. And Laura's having another. heart I don't. Getting hot on here, is just me? It is, no, it is, it's us, it's the sexual attention. I did SNL a few years ago.

And so, and there as well, of course, people talk with sort of encoded ways about who was, you know, and again, this is all, none, no names will be able to, obviously, but yeah, over the years, millions of people have done that show. And eventually, things leak out about, yeah, they were tricky, you know, or so and so, you know, because, and you know what, as it should. As it should. Carmically, it should. Because I think if people do behave badly, we can all be forgiven one or two because, you know, something's happened. You may have just lost someone.

You might have just be ill. But when it's a consistent thing, I don't think it, I just don't think it's that much of a massive talent to treat people vaguely well. Do you know what I mean? To be decent to people does not make you a saint. It's not that hard.

It's not that hard, you know. And to go back to our earlier point, there is a great pool of extraordinary talent out there why do we need to reward I mean no I know I've removed the assail to the occasion I've felt that several times

when you know if you do something with the possibility of someone who we know is going to be difficult but there's extenuating circumstances I'm just like nah A life's too short we could all be dead tomorrow

and I don't want for this to have been my last thing with an idiot B as we've established there are lots of good people There are lots of people who can do this job quite well who are not massively famous who could do with a break, you know. And so why would we tolerate?

I don't get it, man. Has it happened often where you've found yourself again without naming names, obviously? You step into a project and day one or two, you're like, oh God. It has not happened often, no. It's hardly ever happened, to be honest, yeah. Because like you say, you know, the name's on you. Most people are, I really think most people are quite decent people.

And even from the sort of a profession-like actors which is often quite reviled or at least mocked, you know. Right. I think most actors, in my experience, are decent people and just trying their best, and they might be a bit scared or they might be a bit insecure, but they're decent people. Now, directors, on the other hand.

Oh, direct. Who do they think they are? But everyone's trying their best, aren't they? Everyone is trying their best. And it's very, it has happened to me when I thought I will never work with that person again, but not often. Right.

And you and Edgar still keep working together. Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah, I know, it's because I like his beard. Yeah. It is luxurious. Let's mention the films because I want to, and I enjoyed them both. Ghost Stories is delightful. Thanks.

It's gotten a lot of great reception, I see. He has done really well. I'm glad. It's both referential yet to a certain type of film, but also uniquely surprising. I can say absolutely that I was definitely surprised at many turns, especially around your character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How often are you surprised by what you see in a script?

Are you easily, can you track sort of where a script is going? Well, that's a good example of a script that was surprising. And again, in my... Thank you very much. Oh, this is... Sorry, everyone, this is coffee. He's getting decaffeinated up. Thank you very much.

Caffeinated and caffeinated at the same time. Bappers and downers. Yeah. Yeah, you do want to be surprised. And the amount of times you're surprised is less than the times you're not. And it's lovely when you get good surprises. And when I read the script of ghost stories, it was surprising and scary. I read it a couple of times for clarity.

And it was, yeah, it sent a bit of a chill down my spine about three times in the script. And at other times, I was just delighted by the surprises. So, and this is the kind of film that not much needs, I think, to be said, hopefully. We want to kind of give them, like, just enough to get them excited. But, you know, for those that love classic Hammer Horror, there's definitely a bit of that in there. Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah. uh if you're expecting to see martin the first five minutes just be patient when he comes yeah yeah yeah were you warned

that you're not going to appear for a little while on the script and the andy nymann sent me the script um and i yes i knew it wasn't going to be my film but i was just very happy to be in it yeah i was very happy to be in it so yeah it's by no means my film does does this type of film the the tone of a of a work like this afford an actor opportunities to for lack of a better term go bigger to kind of play in it a little bit different way Without question, yeah. And that's part of the appeal to me as well, because you can lean into certain things. You can be a bit more theatrical.

Because the film itself is heightened, I guess, you know, as most horrors are. And certainly most horrors, well, I say most horrors of this kind. There aren't many horrors of this kind around, actually, no. But they are, yeah, they're a bit theatrical. And I am afforded the opportunity to be theatrical without doubt. And that doesn't happen very often. Right.

So it's fun to do it. You've still got to anchor it in reality. Sure. Like you have with everything. You still got to have a base of reality. But what I'm required to do at times is just a bit more up. You know, it's a bit more out there. When do you feel like most exposed, embarrassed feel out on your own acting in a script?

Whether it's something's particular to this one or just generally. Like, is there a stage direction, whether it's a stage direction, whether it's like, Martin takes off his shirt, Martin screams to the heavens, Martin cries like a baby. Is there one where you're like, oh, God, I'll go there. I'm not going to enjoy going there.

I don't know if you've seen my, it was a film I made a long time ago called shirt Baby Scream. And it's, I had to do all of those things. Is that true? No. It was just a short of eight minutes of taking my shirt off,

screaming and going, why, God, why? The thing that makes, I think that where I feel most vulnerable is green screen, actually. Potentially, if you're on your own, there's a scene in Black Panther where my character is in a sort of simulated spaceship and he's kind of bringing down some bad guys

and because that was on my own in a studio just with green all around me, you're just very aware that, you could be doing bad acting you could be doing terrible act because you're not reacting to it someone's saying and there's a spaceship behind you

you know Ryan Coogler is saying okay there's one behind you so you're doing that okay there's one right up ahead okay right any time when someone's saying to you and there's a monster you know and here comes

the Lottliss monster and now you're drowning you know it could it feels a bit like a bad commercial casting from early on in your career do I mean

when you're just asked to do all sorts of things and you have to trust the director you have to trust yourself and the entire CGI and editing process that you won't be exposed. But you're aware that you could be doing some of the worst acting of your life because you're not reacting to something. Yeah, I'm sure even putting your trust in someone like Peter Jackson and Ryan Coogler, and yes, like intellectually, they're not going to make me look stupid.

No. But still, of course, emotionally in your own heart you're going to. When you see yourself back, I am the only judge of really whether I like what I've done. Right. Now, so if other people like it or don't like it, that's completely valid. But my opinion of my performance is very important to me. It is very important to me. I have to, if I go away thinking, oh, God, then that's a terrible feeling.

It's a terrible feeling. How often are the films or projects that are revered by others, ones that you, yourself, in your private time, are not necessarily that satisfied? Well, I love all my work. So I love, I think it's all very strong, it's all brilliant. Every time I appear on screen, it's a, well, it's a magical moment. It's a gift for an audience. And not, I mean, it doesn't happen often that I'm in massive disagreement with people one way or the other, you know, for good or bad. And I think I'm quite philosophical about it now.

You know, I mean, maybe when I was 25, I would have been a bit more easily thrown. But now I'm 30. I, um... You hit the big three out? Took your minute. Took your minute. But thank you. You're just, I mean, you're bathed in oil over the way.

You just seem like supple skin. It's amazing. How can you even grow that beard? This is all stick on. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, now I think you get a bit more philosophical that you are... I saw an interview with Dustin Hoffman once where he said, some days, it just doesn't happen.

It just doesn't happen. You know, however, whatever you're striving for and searching for, guess what some days it will just elude you and it's you have to be okay with that and i thought that's absolutely right it's really right because and sometimes of course like in anything in life the more you chase things the totally the more inexplicably gone they are right and you can it's really easy to go down rabbit holes it i can't speak for anybody else but in my job to just think no one more please one more one more i can i know i've got this thing and sometimes you're right sometimes you're wrong you know that sometimes there is nothing else left

in, it's an empty box. So now you've gone on the other direction. Now you're one take, Martin, you show up on set, be like, guys, I got a game to watch an hour, let's just go back to set. I've got some Sudoku to play. I do, no, I do like, I like being on set. And I like, I'm never happier than when I'm, yeah, between action and cut, I'm very happy. Yeah.

Really, really happy, yeah. I love that. I love my job. Except over the green screen moments, which are maybe, they're fun, but a little less. Yeah, they're just a bit more. Yeah, the answer to your question was, when do you feel vulnerable? And that is when you feel vulnerable. I still like them, but they're dangerous because you've got no gauge.

Yeah, yeah. You know. Was, so the first, well, I guess I was going to say it's Hobbit, but maybe even Hitchhiker. I can't remember. Was Hobbit the first time where that experience was like really immersive and you had to kind of like go for broke in terms of dealing with effects? To that extent. Yeah.

I mean, I'm trying to think back how much, I don't think there was that much green screen on Hitchhiker. Yeah. There wasn't that much. There was some, obviously, but I suppose the Hobbit was. the first one where it was that constant. And even then, you know, Peter Jackson's not a green screen geek. He likes things to be physical.

He likes real sets. As much as humanly possible, he'll build it. You know, he'll get it built. But some things you can't build, some things do not exist, so you have to digitally render them. But he would rather the real stuff was there, I think, you know. And it's, it's tricky because the most fun thing about, acting for me is looking in another human's eyes and building a scene between you.

And if you're doing that in front of green screen, fine. But as I say, it's when you're on your own, essentially. Doing reacting to something that is not there is never going to be. That's never been there. That's potentially dangerous. So, okay, so backtracking a little bit. I mean, you know, hitting the obvious points that are often brought up in your career. I mean, the office came, you're probably approaching 30 around them.

Yeah, it was 29. of it yeah um where were you at in your life career in terms of happiness career wise personally were you making a living um and did you have visions of a certain type of career then and if so what were they i was making a living yeah i i left drama school when i was 23 and i um had worked uh yeah i'd always worked a lot in theater bits of tv um the occasional short film the occasional commercial but I would definitely making a living not a not a high rolling living but um but I was very happy I was very content um and was that what was the was that were you goal oriented was there like again you know we're talking about the danger of always seeking what's next what's next

what's next but that being said yeah especially in that point in your career I would imagine there were certain aspirations whether it's the type of role or a certain level of filmmaker you wanted to work with what were those kind of signposts for you then i don't know i don't know if i could have even um articulated that then i'm not sure i can articulate it now and partly it's because of you know don't speak too soon it's it's like you know as soon as you say it you'll jinx it and almost as soon as if you think it you'll jinx it now i'm aware as well there is the i guess the jim kerry school of thought which is no you have to say it out loud and and visualize it right and you know that works for him right um but i think i come from a bit more

of a well partly as soon as you say something I feel you limit it because the part of the beauty of my job is you don't know you don't know because I've done jobs where I had never thought never occurred to me that I would do that job

or that role until someone went I really want you to do that role and you go oh fantastic whereas if I'd gone now I'll do X, Y, Z and I want that to happen by the time I'm 35 I don't know it just seems limiting and it also to me seems crazy it does seem a little bit crazy to me

because I just think that even though yes you make your own luck the likelihood right the likelihood when you start acting the likelihood you're going to be either rich or famous or both is fucking tiny almost invisible it's almost zero

right so don't you know why bother spending that second energy. And I don't mean not have aspirations or drive. I was pretty driven and I'm highly ambitious to be good. I want to do good work. But it's when you start being specific about it, that feels a little bit to me like a business plan and it's never felt like a business plan to me at all. Were you aware before you became well known and recognizable and famous how much you didn't want that before you got it? No. No, I didn't know how much I didn't want it. No. And again,

Before it sounds like a poor me Clearly I have a lovely life And there are worse things in the world Than being famous Right clearly But what I found was You only need to be on a couple If you're of my persuasion

You only need to be on a couple of red carpets With people screaming your name To realize, ah, okay This is not as much fun As some other things in my life It didn't take long For me to go Ah, right, fair enough

I've seen that now I've peeked in the curtain and I don't hate it but yeah you don't love it of course you don't love it because there's not an awful lot to love about that because it was a kind of

at its worst there's a kind of mania about it that is not healthy human history is littered with examples and when people go when mania happens not brilliant things happen as a result and it's just my nervous system

I can't take too much of it yeah I'm not distrustful of those that are almost too comfortable with it. I know, but at the same time, I wish that I had, in the last 16 years, got better

at it, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because I still don't really know I still don't really know how to do that. I think I'm better at it than I was. Yeah. I'm still not good at it. I think people just don't recognize. And yeah, so let's again, acknowledge it's a, you know,

it's privileged problems, I suppose. Of course, yeah. But it's, but it's a 24-7 thing, you know, again, you're not Tom Cruise, but I'm sure every day, but I'm sure every day you are still noticed and recognized and you have to make that calculation in your head that like, if I'm going to the grocery store, add in 30% more time than the normal human being. Yeah, yeah, no, that is true. And you're absolutely right. No, you, because everyone has the, I'm not Tom Cruise thing, you know what? Because like, yes, there are level, there are gradations of it. I am nowhere near the top tier of it. But,

But you don't need to be anywhere near the top tier for it to still massively impact your life. Did it happen like, did it feel like it happened overnight with the office or was it a gradual? The change happened overnight, but then it ramped up. I mean, the change happened to me with my ex Amanda and I, we went out, we were just going out for a drink in Camden in North London after the office had first shown. And we were just going to go out. It was a club night on and it was, you know, soul music. I wanted to go and listen to some music. And it was different.

I was like, ah, this is different now because it was full of people. people, yeah, just doing that thing. You must feel it. You must just feel it. Even if people aren't, you just feel eyes on you. You feel eyes on you and people were doing the thing. And this is before everyone had an eye, you know, no one had a knife. So not everyone had a camera at least, but people were making it known.

And as I say, not Beatlemania, not Tom Cruise, but still enough to, that felt like an overnight thing. But then when you do other stuff. So it was at that level for a while and then it stepped up a little bit, stepped up a little bit, with the dual thing of Sherlock on the Hobbit, that was another thing again, you know. Was that, is that, do you have to put that in part of, like, the algorithm when taking on a project?

Because when you take on the Hobbit, you know what that's going to be. I did. And it wasn't so much, I took that a little bit into account. It was more the doing of it that I, because it obviously sounds like a no brain. Do you want to play The Hobbit in The Hobbit? Yes, of course you do.

Right. But the bit that, and what I respected Peter Jackson for, I respect him for many things. but the first thing I respected him for just as a human was that he understood why I was not just going oh yes please let me do you know let me because I was a father yeah you knew enough you were I knew enough and I wasn't 12 yeah exactly and I knew I would have to be away from my family for a long time

at the other side of the world as far away from London as you can possibly be he understood that because he's a family man and he gets it that was the bit that gave me pause for thought it wasn't so much the thing of oh my God now I will always be billed by baggins. It wasn't so much that. Yeah. It was just the doing of it.

And as I said, I suppose because that sort of the Hobbit Sherlock thing was part of the same tornado in a way in time, they took heat off each other. Or they added me. So it wasn't like, yes, for some people I will always be billed by baggins. And for some people I will always be John Watson. For some people, I'm meeting the second generation of office fans now. So I'm meeting guys of like 1920 who are. going crazy over the office the way I did over faulty towers or whatever, you know, after

the fact. And so that's interesting as well. What's lovely, actually, is I'm allowing myself pride in something is that I have done enough roles of varying types that people can go, oh, I really love that. And I'm, yeah, I'm very proud of that. I'll allow myself some pride in that. What's, a little out, what's the overriding, like, memory or sense memory of the office at this point? I would imagine, you know, Ricky's cackle probably is burned into your brain forever. The cackle before, but before it had a trademark on it. Exactly. You were privileged, you knew the cackle before it became the cackle to end all cackles.

My sense memory is of, I have never, ever laughed that much in a work situation, ever. It was truly funny I knew the scripts were good I'd met him before I'd done a sketch show a BBC sketch show before that called Bruiser which he contributed to

as a writer I'd met him I liked him he was completely unpretentious he wasn't like any other comedy writer I'd ever met because there was nothing learned or studied about him

there was nothing academic about him he was just like a lunatic had been let go in a world full of grown-ups and I like that a lot. So by the time I did the office, I respected him. I didn't know how good he was going to be. But he was phenomenally good in the office. What like these two films you were actually happen to be promoting now, it was a collaboration between two people. Both these films are

co-directed by Paris and the office was obviously Stephen Merchants alongside Ricky. Without question. Did it, did they have confidence in their own material? They didn't have much of a track record. They had confidence that no one had any right to have. I mean, it was, again, only Ricky and Steve know what was in their hearts. Sure. But to us, it looked like, who the fuck are these guys? It was like you had done 15 big shows. Stephen Merchant was about 12 at the time.

Ricky, I guess, was turning 40. None of them had a track. I mean, Ricky had a little bit of a track record on a show called The 11 o'clock show. He'd done a little comedy bits. So people in the comedy world started to know him as an entity. But he was not John Cleese, you know. You're like, am I missing a page of the resume I should know about? I have this confidence.

They were completely, it seemed to me, completely confident in their taste and in their skill. And they were right to be, because their taste and their skill was spot on, you know. How did you and Edgar and Simon get to know each other? You've been in all three of the Coronado trilogy, progressively larger parts as they, as it continued. How did you guys become friends? I first became aware of Simon as a performer. I'd seen him on telly, liked him. He was just here, by the way, a couple weeks ago

in case you detect his scent or horror in the room. I knew there was a malevolent feeling in here. Yeah, and I knew I would like him. I mean, like I liked what he did. And we had friends in common. You know, we weren't a million miles apart. you know, in that, as you will imagine, you know, Britain being a reasonably small island,

um, we knew people in common. We worked with people in common. And very early on, people had slightly started to compare us a little bit, do you know what I mean? Um, and by the time I met him,

I was really, because I thought, I think I'm going to like this guy. And I did. He was just a lovely bloke. He introduced me to Edgar, um, at a party.

Um, and I had, I'd really liked spaced. Yeah. And I met Simon Roundabout the second series of space. I met, or before. I met him in 2000. I met him in 2000.

And I met Nick Frost at the same time and Peter Serafenowitz and, you know, those people. Because we lived in the same area of London, North London. And yeah, they'd be just good people, you know. There were just people I liked who also happened to be very funny and very successful. Did you share kind of the geek or movie bona fides of those guys? Do you have that kind of... Not the same.

No, not. I think there are moments that we cross over. but um no i'm i mean i'm i'm not saying this to make myself look interesting or cool but i'm no i'm not a geek in that way right nowadays you go the other direction you have to be cool you have to say that you're no indeed no indeed well partly about how i knew things had shifted she's bored she's gone it's gone not even my publicist gives a shit anymore i'm still interested thanks can't say that for the audience but um yeah they've all gone um was it yes i knew something had shifted or like simon for me is an example of that modern popular culture

the way we're sort of obsessed with genre now the way we're obsessed with you know and geekdom and all that you know and the geeks have now they're the cool kids now you know um simon has a like a genuine lifelong as you know love of star wars right now when i i'm i'm a little bit younger than simon But those were the first films I loved as well. I loved Star Wars. But when I met Simon, I realized, oh, no, it's like liking the Beatles. Yeah, yeah. And then being a Beatles nut, right?

And I'm a bit of a Beatles nut. So when people say, oh, yeah, I love the greatest hits of the Beatles. I'm like, why, you little. You don't deserve a person. You deserve to hear age you. And so, yeah, I love, as far as I was in saying, Star Wars was part of my growing up. Definitely partly shaped me.

But it didn't shape me into whatever that popular culture version of a geek is. Fair enough. And Simon, we would joke about it a lot, that he would talk about Star Wars as if it was 20th century history. You know what I mean? Like if it was, we were reading about the beginning of World War II or something. Like, it was fact. Because he was naming, whereas I would say,

oh, in that bit where that happens, and he would name all the characters and all the moons. And so it was a different level. So I think that has shifted in my adult life, actually. I think that, because it's not, it's now not just, a case of, oh, yeah, I really liked that. I really liked Back to the Future. It's now, there's a quiz on it, and you have to know the five levels of it, the five layers

of it. Exactly. And there are some things I can do that about, but they're different things. Are any of them in the movies space? Oh, some of them would be in the movie space, yeah, but, um, and comedy space, you know. What's your jeopardy category in pop culture? I do pretty well, I do anything that isn't music. I mean, I'll do well on Spinal Tap.

I do very, very well on that, yeah, and I do well on, yeah, TV comedies. grew up with, I'd do pretty well on The Godfathers, you know. You know, I mean, I'd very well on West Side Story. I'd do very well on West Side Story. Spiobro is remaking it. Get your head in the ring. I heard that when someone said to me, it's like, who, I'm too old for everyone, I'm like, Doc. I'm, okay, I'd be a young doc.

Look, maybe it's a mocap, maybe you could play Maria, we don't know. It's too soon to say. Yeah, it's me and Idris Elba. Yeah, just in mocap suits. Any circus is playing every role. Every role, yeah. Yeah, no, there are things. obviously because we all have our

the things that we love yeah um but you know mine isn't in all honesty it's not as I say I'm not trying to make myself cool by saying but it's not the same right there's not there are some concentric circles that overlap but

I'm not as encyclopedic about the same things as they are are there any you know your kids are like 810 10 10 12 okay so are there films that does that change your consideration of the kind of films you do if anything just to gain with some modicum respect and interest from them?

Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to think of recent examples or any examples. Like, do you call up Simon and say, like, look, if you could put a good word with JJ, that would really help me because... Definitely, no. I mean, yeah, my son would be well into that. I mean, I think in all honesty, I mean, yes, I'm not saying that about Star Wars. Obviously, Star Wars is quality.

But I don't think I would do something just because Joe and Grace might like it if I didn't love it. But it's very... Listen, it's pretty... cool if you're the hobbit when you pick up from school time that's pretty cool yeah um it's pretty cool if you're in black panther you know that that sort of stuff is yeah um it's nice when your kids are proud of you of course yeah um Sherlock yeah this little thing that you're in that some people have some interest in still yes i don't see it i don't get it myself but no um do you believe in

the you know the the chemistry thing like do you believe like yeah you and benedicton did you do experience that yeah we just had chemistry yeah we just had chemistry and you know I say and I'm not and I'm not trying to downplay it it's almost like not even to we can't even take any credit for it it's not like oh weren't we clever because we had chemistry it's pure luck yeah that's luck yeah yes we're good yeah I'm gonna say we're good at our jobs you know we can definitely act but but so can a lot of people who don't necessarily have their chemistry you know as soon as you started reading it was oh it worked it just worked he knew it I knew it and the room knew it and it was it And it's hard to talk about that sort of stuff without sounding like your own showbiz myth. Sure. And then John NetPaul, you know, it's not... But it was true.

It was true. We worked very easily and well together, you know. As the quick bait culture has decided that you now hate Sherlock, let's go on the other side and thank you. I was just talking about that. I'm gutted about that because, A, I mean, it's part of the perils of press, of course. You do an interview, then they need a headline.

And a headline was not actually. actually something that I said in the article. So that's annoying. It's also annoying to think that, you know, people I really like and care about. Right. Who we made a good thing together might have thought, oh, he doesn't, oh, he doesn't like this show.

He hates the show. Send you a series of sad face emojis. I thought we were having fun. What happened? What happened to us? Well, no, I mean, I hope that people know, because we all do this job, that sometimes things aren't not exactly.

exactly as what happened in the room. Right. You know, and we all know, and, you know, Ben knows that. We all, we all know it. So I hope that it made me feel weird that because it just wasn't true. It wasn't true. What I had said, what was true, I have reservations about some of the way that it's received, and that is a pressure.

Right. That is a pressure. Particularly about the, you know, the absolute insistence that Sherlock and John are a couple, should be a couple, have always been a couple. And my point was, for the record, me and Ben, Given that we're quite good at our jobs, have never, and we know what we're playing. Yeah. We know the moment, the mood, the motivation we're playing.

We never played anything as a couple. And that's just true, you know. We played two friends who love each other. Yeah. That's pretty different. It's weird. We're in a culture now, and I've experienced this many times talking to people that are in these franchises, et cetera, that are just so, and it goes to the territory. It's so obsessed over that the fans, and, you know, you have to appreciate them because they put,

they make it happen. Yeah, we want people to like the work, of course. But they almost create their own narratives. And it's a beautiful thing in some ways, but it's also kind of it. But as long as we know it's that. Yes. As long as we know that, okay, that's your own thing.

So if you watch a film and then you think you've created your own universe out of it, that's great. But that's not what Spielberg or George Lewis, as long as you know that that's not their idea, that's fine. I think that's just what became odd for all of us. actually on Sherlock the extent to which that happened among a pocket of fans not all fans and you know because not all people who watch Sherlock are you know are that type of fan right most people who watch Sherlock is just your uncle and auntie just people who enjoy the show yes and there are people

who are mad into it and I love people who are crazy into it because we'll we've all got to be crazy into some things but it was weird for us when when we realized oh no these people are they're running with their own ball now do you know I mean yeah and that is great because we know, fan fiction has created a real thriving subculture, you know? And there are, I've, I've read some stuff that is, this is really good. Like, it's well-written, creative, thought-out stuff. But it's not, it doesn't happen to be the show we're making. So it's fine, make your own novels or shit, but that's totally fine.

Just know what it is. Yeah, it's like, I'm not going to suddenly go, do you know what, where Stephen Sondheim was going on, is with this little tune here. That's fine. That's my tune. It's not his tune. And it wasn't meant to be his tune, you know. was it was it surreal to watch we've talked a lot about fame and deal and and and that kind of part of it um you got to sort of see it from another end one and seeing like benedict then explode and kind of like become this

in a obsession for for folks is that something that you've you talked to him about or something that you remember was like a we did a bit but i think because we were both you know we'd be on set and it was sort of we were either in the middle of massive scenes you know just where you know what it's like there's only a little dialogue Exactly, you're too busy working, or when we were on location, we sort of, I mean, we would talk about it usually in a sort of humorous way because it would be implicit. Because there were hundreds of people watching, you know, in a way that that doesn't happen on every job. I mean, that does not happen on every job. But there is, yeah, there is something about the appeal of Sherlock. and you know what i've been watching them recently with my kids because my kids really like it and when you when you haven't seen them for a while you just you're reminded of just how good it is the quality of the writing the quality of it's just so beautifully shot yeah music everything

it's a good show he's fantastic he looks great in it he's said you know he's fantastic casting as sherlock home yeah he's fantastic can't take your eyes off of them no he's it's it's like that's a good gig you know i don't mean for him but it's a good for everyone was a winner with that one, you know, because when I went up for that to play John, I knew he was doing it, and I was like, ah, yeah.

And even, and he wasn't famous, famous then, but people knew him, people in the acting community knew him. And the first time I'd seen him, he was obviously very good. He was playing Stephen Hawking, actually, in a BBC film about Stephen Hawking. And I thought, wow, who's this kid?

He's, like, he's really good. So I already respected what he could do. And I thought, oh, he's a very good idea for sure. are like homes and it just works I'll be seeing him this weekend for Avengers shenanigans shall I give him your best or are you guys not talking anymore please do give him my best yeah we should mention

quickly we ghost stories I talked about Cargo also an excellent film Netflix premiering soon this is a tense bit of a you know quite a challenge exciting for you I would imagine a father being put to the test to save the limits

shot in Australia pretty amazing locale yes yeah Well, in the Outback, basically. It was mainly in the Outback in Australia, in South Australia. And I hadn't experienced that before. And, you know, the backdrop, I suppose, is... The mood music of the film is in a post-viral world of zombies.

And I suppose the thing that really got me when I read the script was... It was the family thing. It was the father-daughter thing. and it's ostensibly about a father trying to look after his daughter with the aid of another girl who they meet on the way and it's a great first film I think you know yeah Ben Howling and Yolanda Ramke have directed and Yolanda wrote it they did a short of it you know some years ago

that kind of went viral and did very very well so I was sent the link to the short and the screenplay I thought this is a really heartfelt, again, it wasn't just a genre zombie film. It was, as I say, for me, the connection was the human, the family connection. That was what got me about it, and I think they've done it really well. Let's end on a classy, full circle moment. Fuck Mary Kill. Oh, give me some better ones.

Simon Pegg. Ricky Jervais, Benedict Cumberbatch. Man. I mean, they're all, you know, very, very. Attractive, man. Oh, boy. Don't ignite the fans. No, I can't do that because they're people I all know.

Characters, I can do it to. Because if I offend Sauron, who cares? Okay, we'll go Sherlock. Okay. Ricky from the office, of course. David, Brent. David, thank you. Which character for Simon do we do?

Well, indeed. Well, we should do the World's End, since that was perhaps your biggest collaboration. He was annoying in that. The character was annoying in that. Not Simon. Simon's a lovely man. You know Simon. He's a delightful person.

Oh. I mean, yeah. Sherlock is brilliant but annoying, you know, as his... This could apply to all three. Well, kind of, yeah. Well, not brilliant part for David Brent. Yeah, David Brent's not brilliant. Yeah, he's got a good heart, but he's a dick.

You have to murder David Brown. I'm sorry. I'm thinking this through myself. I don't put words in your mouth, but... Yeah, well, I said, but maybe... God, who do I marry? I mean, I think maybe you might have to end up marrying Sherlock. I don't know, because at least it would be interesting.

Yeah. I think you'd maybe fuck Gary King from the world's end. Right. Because he's a good time guy for most of the film before he has an epiphany. I think he got it. Yeah, maybe kill David Brent. But God knows. Yeah, he is funny. I mean, I don't even mean Ricky's performance, but you would get a lot of,

Pleasure out of being in that man's company just for the... Yeah, I think he needs to rewatch the show. I don't know if you want to be around that. That's true. It's true. Yeah, at least Sherlock would dazzle you with his intellect at some point, and he's got good clothes. This has been so much fun for me.

Honestly, Martin, don't be a stranger. Anytime you have something that you need to hawk, hopefully this is one of the less painful stops on a publicity tour. Yeah, exactly. But if it's cutlery. Well, maybe. Who knows where the career takes you? Good luck with all your endeavors.

Thank you. Everybody check out. Ghost Stories, Cargo, and I'll see you on the next one, man. Thank you. Thanks. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. movies, Hello Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the ultimate movie podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Yorgos' Borgonia. Dwayne Johnson's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again. Daniel DeLuess's return from retirement.

There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.