Happy Sad Confused - Martin Freeman, Vol. II

Episode Date: March 23, 2021

If there's a podcast that enjoys talented, droll, self-deprecating Brits more than "Happy Sad Confused", let us know, we'd like to check it out! In the meantime enjoy one of our favorites, Martin Freeman, returning to the podcast to chat about his very personal show, "Breeders", where he's at with the future of "Sherlock", and why "Sleuth" is his comfort movie! Check out Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan on STIR CRAZY here! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! And listen to THE WAKEUP podcast here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad Confused, Martin Freeman, from The Office and The Hobbit to Sherlock and Breeders. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harrowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Yes, you know I love my Brits. I had to have Martin Freeman back on the podcast. It's been too long, about three years by my math since I connected with Martin. Of course, back then, it was in my office in New York today.

It's over Zoom. Who knows? Maybe within a few months we'll start to get these things done in person again. I'm certainly hopeful. I'm halfway there in my vaccination. I hope you guys are vaccinated. You're on the path towards vaccination. I hope, you know, things are looking up where you are.

I'm certainly starting to wrap my brain around what life looks like as we kind of sort of try to find our old lives again. and maybe travel a little bit safely, of course, if possible. You know, it's baby steps. I'm not expecting to go right back to where we were over a year ago, but any step towards, quote-unquote, normalcy is a positive one, and I feel like we're getting there. So anyway, that's a tangent on the bigger stuff out there. But, you know, on the more mundane, silly pop culture side of things,

Martin Freeman always delivers stellar work. I'm such a fan of his work. As I said, it's so varied. prolific. Whether you love him from the office, of course I do. Whether you love him from Sherlock, of course I do. Come on, him and Benedict. Is there a better duo on the planet? And of course, working on that giant canvas that Peter Jackson was able to create in the Hobbit films. And now, Thrill for Martin that he is not only star, but executive producer, a co-creator of his own series. I was late to the party, but guys, getting on this, it's now in its second

season. The show is called Breeders. It's on FX on Hulu. And it is really born out of Martin's own experiences being a dad. And it is a very honest and open warts and all look at what parenting is life. The frustrations, the joys, all of it. Because, you know, we see a lot of sanitized versions of what it is to be a parent. But I think Breeders seems to get at a lot more of the truth of parenting than other TV and films do. At least that's the goal for the show. And I really enjoyed it.

I hadn't seen it before I knew Martin was going to come on and I binged the entire first season. I've now started the second season. So catch up on it, on FX on Hulu. And, you know, Martin Freeman, it's just one of those watchable, fantastic entertainers actors out there. And also a great conversationalist. I was thrilled to get a chance to talk to him again. He's very bright. He's got the right perspective on celebrity and fame.

And he's got the body of work to discuss. So he's kind of like checks all the boxes for me. We dipped a little bit into what his favorite comfort movie was, which is an interesting one. He chose Sleuth, which, you know, I think it resonates in some ways. You know, it's a two-hander, a famous two-hander with Lawrence Olivier and Michael King. I think of the two-hander he was a part of in Sherlock. There's certainly some parallels there. I'll let Martin himself explain why Sleuth was his comfort movie pick.

But it's a good one. And now I want to go back to see that film, which I haven't seen in many, many years. other things on my brain and probably your brain too if you listen to this is of course comic book movies and comic movie tv or comic book tv shows rather we got two giant things drop in the last week falcon and the winter soldier uh which has started its run on uh disney plus i enjoyed the first episode i'm here and generally everybody was into it it's certainly a lot different than wanda vision was um but thrilled for anthony macky thrilled for sebastian stan um felt for our guest last week, Emily Van Camp,

and I'm excited to see what's to come in that one. I should say, related to that, big stir-crazy episode, big stir-crazy episode, Sebastian Stan and Anthony Mackie guests on this week's stir-crazy together. They are hysterical, and there's a lot of fun stuff in there, and maybe even a kind of sort of cameo-ish thing from one Captain America. check it out i'll put it up on my uh twitter and my um you know my social media handles joshua harrowitz

or you can always go to comedy central's facebook page or comedy central's youtube page so check that out the other thing to mention i'll mention it again we've been talking about the last few weeks but it is so much it's on my mind because it's like kind of everywhere is zach snider's justice league been fascinating to see sort of everybody's reaction to that there's a lot to dig into over four hours of it. If you haven't gone back and checked out my conversation with Joe Mangonello, that's worth a listen. By now also, Zach Snyder himself, who I chatted with, my conversation with him is up.

We did that for MTV News. So if you go to MTV News's YouTube page, or again, I've tweeted it out, but go back and look. It's about a 20-minute conversation with Zach. Covered a lot of stuff I always want to ask him about his Snyder v. films. The rumors of Adam Driver potentially being in one of his films. There's truth there. Daniel DeLewis that perhaps he wanted in one of his films.

There's truth there. We talk about the rumors about Green Lantern being in the New Justice League, the HBO Max spin-off series. He might want to see whether he'd want to do a Marvel movie. What specific character really piqued his interest when I brought it up? So there's a lot there. If you've seen, there's really no spoilers in the conversation, but if you're looking for more content to really dig into Zach Snyder's Justice League,

go check out my conversation with him on MTV News's YouTube page. And yet, hopefully, I think he's going to hopefully, if all lines up right, come back on the podcast for Army of the Dead, which is his movie that's just around the corner coming to Netflix, him returning to the zombie genre, which he did so well in Dawn of the Dead. So yes, lots of Zach Snyder on the brain right now and more to come. Anyway, all right, let's get to the main event. Freeman, as I said, Breeders is the show, returning show on FX on Hulu. Catch up with it.

It's an easy watch. It's a fun watch. And hopefully this listen is an easy listen to some technical difficulties. I wasn't in my usual spot recording this, so like a little bit of Wi-Fi issues. There might be like some delays, some gaps, but nothing to detract from your enjoyment of this witty, delightful man. Here's me and Mr. Martin Freeman. It's good to see you, man. I feel like my lighting is very ominous. I apologize. I'm not camera ready today. I like that. You look like a, I don't know, a creature in a scary film.

Well, some would say the lighting doesn't really have anything to do with that. That's just, that's what God made me. I mean, God made me, sir. Exactly. It's good to see a familiar face, though, man. Thanks for catching up today. Yeah, you're welcome. Nice to see you. last we spoke I think was about three years ago luckily nothing much has changed in the world it's all pretty much status world where we left off yeah um so yes bring me up to speed on where you were at when when the madness began about a year ago where you got i feel like breeder season one it just dropped at least here in the states were you making stuff were you promoting stuff were you back i was just talking i was filming a show in l.a called angeline for peacock

right with emmy rossum yeah and the lucid shirniac and having a lovely time and i i they managed to shoot me out just before and get me pretty much it was like the last helicopter out of sagon back to london one of the last ones actually i think for a while because all the way through the filming it's fine you know it's it's scary but it'll be okay and my feeling was what it's it's nothing don't worry about it'll be back in a month it's all it's all good yeah and then something changed and i don't know whether it was tom Hank's getting ill. I don't know, but maybe then the industry took it seriously because Tom Hanks is ill. Like, you know, never mind four million other people. But it, I don't know, something changed mid-week. And it was like, okay, Martin, we're going to try and get you on the last plane or get you out as soon as we can because at some point we're not going to be able to get you out, I don't think, you know. So I got back just in time. I got back in middle of March. I mean, roundabout now. And yeah. And so then, you know, what happened, happened. And I was on. lockdown or whatever, you know, like with everybody else in the UK for a long time, on and off lockdown.

Yeah. But I've done a couple of bits since then. You know, I've done second series of breeders. I'm doing something at the moment in Liverpool. But yeah, it's been, yeah, it's been a very interesting time. You know, some genuinely, for me, some positive things and some things that are very hard. You know, I mean, you can't have this conversation without also acknowledging your good fortune, your relative. I have a house with a garden and I have space and so, you know, like last summer I was just

reading till I dropped, you know, just in my garden and it was actually quite nice. I've got to be honest. It was quite nice. Did you have ambitions of like I feel like I've spoken to a lot of people. It's been fascinating to kind of document the year that was like some people went into lockdown and kind of like with a purpose like I'm going to learn Mandarin Chinese and become an amateur Somali. And others others of us like myself were like, I'm just going to survive. and hope I don't gain 20 pounds. Yeah, I knew I wouldn't really be able to stick to those. Yeah, so I think myself, I'm going to learn Gaelic or something.

I was like, no, you're probably not, you know. So no, I didn't, but it was lovely, I did read a lot. I kind of rediscovered my love for just being alone with books. You know, that was really lovely. And hung out a lot with my kids, which was fantastic. I've got such really, really lovely. not um did what was the nature of because i mean i don't have kids myself and that that will factor into our conversation on breeders today but certainly my siblings do and i

kind of felt vicariously for them in this past year because my gosh to be a parent in this last year was a challenge to say the least um did you it must have experienced that with with teenagers young young two to my best brown teenagers right do i have that right yeah that's well 15. Yeah. So I wasn't doing homeschooling with it. I wasn't telling them about, you know, the English Civil War. They were doing online schooling, right? So, you know, Joe is in one room. Grace is in another room. So my main thing is making sure they're eating and drinking enough and making, trying to make sure somehow that they're actually doing work without being too much of a helicopter parent and bugging them all the time. But yeah, it is weird. It is, you know, so between, me and my ex, you know, their mom, that we were sort of sharing, sharing that experience. And yeah, it's, it's very odd, you know. And of course, they miss school like hell. You know, I mean, so when they could go back, it was the best thing ever.

And then we're on another lockdown all this year until, until last week. They miss their friends, you know, and they miss that sociability because we are primates who need to be social creatures, you know. The good news for you nowadays, or maybe it's the bad news, is that even when you're with your kids, you can chalk it up as research for the... So, I mean, that is an interesting dynamic now, where, like, usually work for you is probably the escape, but now it's kind of like there's a mishmash.

Like, it's all material in a way, I would imagine. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I suppose it doesn't feel like that, because breeders now feels like it's... I don't know, it feels like the template is up and running. Right. And now you have more leeway to go, you know, less likely to come in and go, guess what happened to me, folks?

And we can put that in the show. No, now it is just, I can honestly say, and you know, you know what sort of show breeders is. So, you know, I'm not afraid of telling the truth about the downside of parenting. I'm fully embraced that. So I'm not lying when I say, it's like 90% of it that the spending that much time with my kids, having them at home has been delightful. I mean, it's been really good. And it's been, I think, really good for us, you know, and occasionally bad for us, you know, because you need to be doing other stuff.

Yeah. And however much your kids love you and love their mom, we can't, you know, take the place of their contemporaries, you know, we can't, you know, because I, there's no way I can feel the same way about bloody TikTok that my daughter does, you know what I mean? Yeah, you feel more strongly about it, obviously, yeah. She's quite latee fair about it, and I'm well into it. We got to get back on the tick and the talk. Did you always know you wanted to be a dad?

I mean, did you wrestle with kind of like, am I going to give up my career when I become a father? Were there those kind of existential moments of crisis? I think I always knew that, no. Like, I have never particularly wanted to get married, and I've never been married. I was with Amanda for 16 years, and that was the closest I've come, I suppose.

But no, I was always more open to being a father, I think, and I was open to being a father, you know, when I was told, when Amanda said, I'm pregnant, it felt very right. I mean, it felt, and I hadn't been angling for it. I mean, let's have a kid, let's, you know, but when she said, I'm pregnant, I thought, yeah, that seems, yeah, that seems right. I think we should fully jump on that bus, you know. I wasn't scared, you know, I wasn't thinking, Christ, what do we do? I just thought, yeah, I think we, yeah, we do this. And it will be. it'll be what we do. And how did it impact your attitude? Sure, no, no, I guess. But I guess how did it impact you think your sense of self, your sense of work, your ambition,

did it give you some perspective and maybe, you know, take you out of your own head a little bit about your own career and work? Yeah. Yes, I mean, I think it did to an extent and it didn't as much as I was hoping it would. But then I get you know, because that's the thing people say, you know, a good friend of mine said to me, you know, when he, before he was a parent, he wanted, he wanted to be the best actor in the world. And then when he was a parent, he thought, no, I want to be the best dad in the world. And I thought, well, that sounds good. That sounds like the right thing to either think or say. Right. So I was kind of hoping that would happen. And of course, you know, of course I want to be a good dad, you know. And that's a work in progress. But I think what was, what was. I wasn't, I don't think I've ever been that much in my head about my career. Do you know what I mean?

So you weren't starting from that dangerous actor place that many of them are. I don't think so. I'm definitely in my head, definitely in my head. But the things that keep me awake are not that. And it's never been that. It's, it's way more elemental than that. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's way more about what it is to be alive.

And that's not meant to make me sound, you know, philosophical. But, yeah, it wasn't really about career. because I don't know I think I have a fairly healthy attitude to my working life I think because I've also been quite lucky so I've been able to have healthy attitude but no it's more about how am I going to die that sort of thing you know I was saying because I was about 20 you know am I a good person am I a prick you know all that sort of stuff um so in some I think it took me out of my head more a little bit later. I think because in the midst of it, it made me anxious. Yeah, being a dad immediately made me very, it didn't chill me out. Let's put it

like that. It made me way less chilled out than I'd ever been. Well, now you piqued my interest on your existential crises because, you know, I envy the people that like don't fear death, that are like, you know, like, this will be like the, this will, I will never be chill about my mortality. Have you come to grips with that? I mean, I know you lost your dad pretty young and that's got to affect sort of your perspective on these things. So, I mean, where are you at in your life in terms of these big questions? And I think I've not moved really probably from when I was young, which is knowing I'm going to die, but not really believing it. You know, I don't really, I can't really believe I'm going to die. That, that still to me

feels optional. It must be optional. There's no way the world could continue without me in it. There's the actor brain I was looking for. There's the ego I was looking for. Yeah. Well, yeah, of course. I mean, you know, we are all the star of our own movie. It couldn't be anything else, could it? Yeah, so I don't quite believe I'm going to die. And of course, I know I'm going to die. And I'm not a massive fan of that fact. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not great, I'm not greatly chuffed with that, but I think I've been thinking about, I think I've felt mortality since my early 20s and I don't really know why. I think, you know, there's a point in your youth and in your childhood when, you know, there's, there's a great Simon

and Garfunkel lyric which says, how terribly strange to be 70. And they, and Paul Simon probably wrote that when he was 26, 27, I suppose, you know. And yeah, damn right. How, how weird how weird to be 70 you know but now the age i am i'm like okay yeah i'm a ways off 70 but that's not unthinkable man you know that's really that's not unthinkable um and i think it was when i was 21 and it was probably you know when i was 31 it was probably like 70 will never happen you know until you understand that it's being 70 is 100 percent better than the alternative you know um So, yeah, I hope I'm hoping I'm, I hope I'm at a place where I can sort of receive it all with quite good grace, you know. I don't mind getting older.

Of course, see, I think people are kind of lying, but maybe, maybe I'm just being, maybe I'm just being bitter. I think people are sort of lying when they say, I would never want to be 22 again. I'm like, bitch, I would. It's something great about youth. There is something great about it. Unless you happen to have had a terrible... Right. If you've had a traumatic youth,

then I understand why you don't want to be 22. And of course, there are, you know, you were probably quite annoying when you're 22, and you're probably quite full of something when you're 22, and you've got no perspective, you haven't done anything yet, but actually that's not sure. Some people have, some people have,

but a lot of us haven't done much by the time we're 22. And so, yeah, you can judge that and go, yeah, but if I know so much more now and I'm so much happier now, And that, I'm sure is true. Of course I know more, and I know more who I am. But I'm sorry, there's something pretty beguiling about youth. There is.

No, yeah. Give me a sense of, I'm curious, because when I was doing the math in the trajectory of this show, again, when we last did the podcast together, was breeders even like a going to near eye? I mean, were you thinking about generating? It was. Because this is the first project that you really kind of like produce, executive produce, your help create.

That's a big shift for an actor. How did that come about? Were you looking for something to kind of have more ownership over? No, I literally, I dreamed it. I literally, I dreamed the first scene of the first episode of series one. I had a dream

that became the opening of breeders, almost exactly. And I woke up and thought, oh, that'd be, that's quite funny in a way, in a dark way. It would be quite a good show. So then I just spoke to very smart people who can do things I can't do. And, you know, that's the number one, surround yourself with very smart people.

So I did with Simon, Blackwell and Chris Addison. And we worked the show up together with always in mind that I would be in it. And Simon would be the showrunner and Chris would direct. And we all brought our own stuff to bear as parents, you know. So no, it wasn't, I wasn't really thinking, what can I produce? was it was just something that I thought, well, I, this show doesn't exist and I'd like it to exist. You know, because of the sort of, I think partly the function of it, I think, is, as well as making people laugh, it's to make people not feel lonely or not feel bad about themselves

as parents, you know, because whenever I spoke to my friends about it, you know, before it was a thing, but when I said, I've had this idea, they said, oh, you have to, you know, like, people in my situation, parents are fairly young children, it's like, you've got to do it. You have to do it because that sounds exactly like what we're going through and that needs to be seen you know like people who who do this stuff that these characters do are not terrible people you know they're not terrible parents but um we're not supposed to show that side of our parenting we're not supposed to acknowledge it almost you know in our culture and that just seems very a dishonest and be undesirable you know i just i don't think we would desire a world really

where we never discipline our children. Well, I think partly we're seeing the end results of what happens when we don't discipline our children in this culture. Are there mandates, rules in the writer's room for a show like this? Is there like the old Seinfeld no-hugging kind of axiom on a show like Breeders

where you're trying to stay truthful to your experience? Did they have that, no-hugging? I think so. I don't know if that's become like, yeah, legend, or if it was true, but it fits, doesn't it? We had the thing of no one learns anything at the end of any episode. We have that.

There shouldn't be a teaching moment. Right. Like, and at the end of that, I think we've all learned to be more respectful. It's just, I think it's all, we treat the Worsley's, the family. The Worsleys are like, I think, like most of us, if we're being honest,

and that's just we are busking everything. Like, everything is a black. and that we have no fucking idea what we're doing. And we're just trying to cause the least suffering possible, you know. What do your kids think of the show? Are they horrified? Are they thrilled that in some way they've inspired this? Yeah.

No, they love it. And not only do they love it, but because they know they've inspired it, they are now starting to hit me up for royalties. And that's got, I think, more serious that each time they bring it up, especially Joseph. He's like, well, this show wouldn't exist without us. To be fair, honest, be fair, we should get paid. We should.

It's like, yeah, dream on. No, they love it. And, you know, it's nice, you know, because their mum is a very, very good actor as well. They like watching their parents, you know. And the fact that this show is, yeah, it wouldn't exist without it. It wouldn't.

But I think they, they recognize a lot of it, put it that way. They recognize a lot of it. Because I'm trying to be, you know, I'm letting everything in, from a just from a purely acting point of view, I don't try and hide anything, you know, because I'm not playing, I'm not, I don't want to sort of, how did he create this role? It's like, you know, it's like, it's the closest thing to me that I've ever done, right? And I'll have no, I'll have no problems if people say, you're just playing yourself.

It's like, well, to a certain extent, yes, to, to, I mean, not exactly, but I'm using all the things that made me want to make this show in the first place and happily put them on the screen. You know, all the stuff, all the vulnerabilities and all the fears and all the joy because I think Paul and Allie are actually really good parents. You know, this is a good family. It's like this is a functioning, functional family. And there happens to be swearing.

And I just think, and I've said this, you know, a couple of times today to other people. so it feels boring to me. But I think it's worth saying. A generation or two ago, our parents and grandparents, the difference is that they wouldn't have pretended they didn't shout at their kids. You know what I mean?

It's only recently that we've thought, oh, that's a good idea if I lie about that. Right. No one pretended they didn't shout at their kids back in the day. You know what on earth would be the point of pretending that? Did your mom curse in front of you? Did you curse in front of your mom growing up? was that my mom was a good swear yeah my mom was a good swear i mean i heard i did hear a lot of

swearing in the house and and again like like maybe i'm sure with most of us there are things that you see in your childhood and you experience in your childhood that you don't necessarily want to pass on in all honesty but there are also things that you think that that seemed kind of rough at the time but you know what that's called character that is genuinely called building character and it's called being alive. And I don't want to lose that. And I do want to pass some of that on to my kids as well as, you know, I was lucky because I knew I was loved, right? From the get-go, I was absolutely demonstrably loved as a child. And I was also bullocked and told off and shouted out where necessary, you know. And that for me is like as good as it gets.

That's as much as you can hope for. I think I started swearing in front of my mom later on. Yeah, later on when I felt, was this safe? Yeah, we're swearing. Great, we swear. There's no going back now. Yeah, same for me. I feel like I didn't do it until, like, I was in my 20s.

And first it felt a little odd, and then it's like, okay, you know. Yeah, I think maybe, yeah, maybe my late teens, maybe. But I remember one time, like one of the, I still remember it, so I must have been pretty scared. I remember my mum overhearing me really swearing with a mate of mine and I turned around and my mum was just there like with that face I'll explain that to people who aren't watching it was a stern face it was a stern face and then she just walked away and I thought oh man I haven't shit and I was like 10 or 11 and I've been really swearing because that's what obviously what children do and and I knew as I approached her I was like this I've got to take it I've got it and she yeah she wasn't impressed. You know, seven years later, she was like, well, okay, you're, you're a person

now. You're sort of more a grown up. But yeah, there were definitely standards and definitely parameters for sure. Um, how did the, uh, were you always planning to do the time jump this season? Was that part of the, yeah, yeah, that was always part of it. Yeah, just to sort of show another part of the family dynamic, I suppose, between infants and, you know, preteens, becoming teams. It's different. And also you can you can give the actors concerned different challenges, you know. Well, I really enjoy, and I frankly hadn't seen the first season up until this last week. I binge it this past week. And I really enjoyed kind of the use of going back and forth in time to kind of like mix it all up, mix all the joy and the sorrow, the happiness and the

tragedy. Yes. The show, as you said, it's kind of like all the colors of parenting, all the colors of the human condition and it makes it feel all the more true. I think so, yeah. I mean, I think because part of the, I don't know, the USP, I suppose, of the show in a way was that side of, you know, I think the way we show parents being angry with kids

is not very common in a comedic setting. I haven't seen it myself, not to that extent, not with characters who you're then laughing at, and rooting for yeah um but really i mean it shouldn't even be that remarkable i mean i think it's because because we've got where we are in our culture um that that that's even really weird oh my god that's so brave because you're you're showing yourself losing your temple with your kids it's like why are we pretending that we didn't grow up in families where people lost their fucking mind and when's that ever going to be different you know like yeah and why should it be

it, how on earth would it be healthy if there was not the occasional blow-up, you know? It's, as you say that, it's, I'm like, were these scenes exactly the same, like cavemen times, Victorian times? They probably were. I mean, they looked, maybe looked a little bit different, but people always were losing their shit with their kids. Yeah, I think just with more physical violence, I suppose, yeah. And it's clearly progress that the physical violence part has dropped down. Yes. And that's obviously a good thing. but along with you know being shoved up chimneys or whatever or a general child labour that was pretty common in our societies until about a hundred years ago

so yeah good that's progress but i think i don't think it's progress to pretend to sit on everything and you know for us all to pretend to be therapists and not lose our minds once in a while i just i just think that's i don't know you try staying up all night having a sleepless night with a very small child and tell me that you feel zen about it You can. You might just be more evolved than you and I, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're either a saint or a liar. Yeah.

There must be a joy in, again, having been a co-creator of this, an executive producer of this, like are you, you must have a strong hand in casting, and casting the lead roles and the guest roles. Like, are you auditioning actors? Is that an odd situation for you to suddenly be in where you're in the room auditioning other actors? It was, it was, and it was a really, and it was a really good reminder to me of what we as actors go through and what we put ourselves through in that process you know because and that process isn't easy and i think because i've been in you know i've been in the position of not auditioning for some time and i mean obviously

you know obviously i have but it but it's it's a while ago and and it's worth remembering i think the appropriate judgment of that process because it's you know it's a hard thing to do you know I've met people in the armed forces who are more scared of what I do than going into battle. Do you know what I mean? To me, it's mental. That seems crazy. But you know, what we do is not war and it's not going down the minds and it's, you

know, I'm never ever going to claim anything like it's the hardest job in the world. But there are aspects to acting which are pretty hard and which are pretty tough on your psyche, right, and on your character. And the whole thing of the notion of doing your thing, like, showing your craft and knowing that there's seven people judging you, like properly judging you, that's a tough one, man. That's, you know, so that that was a nice reminder for me that I'm, oh, I'm now one of the people judging you and I'm one of you.

You know, I'm the same species as you. So it's, that was a nice thing to be reminded of the respect that I think you should afford people for doing that. Yeah, because I would imagine you alluded to. this, but I would imagine the quote-unquote, like, key performances in your career that people think of, most notably, in the big stuff, right? You probably did an audition for, I would imagine. Did you audition for Hobbit? Did you audition for Sherlock? Actually, I did. Yeah, I went on tape for The Hobbit, and it was, it was, so it was an audition, but it was an audition

with a kind of nudge, nudge, wink, wink, we want you to do this. Because there was, at that stage, Guillermo del Toro was the director, and there was a note in the casting room that the casting director showed me and it was from Guillermo del Toro saying Martin we want this to be you so do a good job because we all read this is you have to lose this now you mean this is yours for the losing if you mess it up and that's on you but we want you to be this thing I guess that's a gift right I mean it could have the opposite effect but that's it was fantastic because because also I was in the middle actually off shooting we were shooting Sherlock at the time and half of the UK was going up for Bilbo Baggins and other parts in it and a fair bit of

Hollywood actually is where we're being sort of touted around for it and so I wasn't I wasn't expecting it you mean so I wasn't thinking this is my part god damn it I wasn't thinking that so I just thought this seems fun and you know and I heard people over the years say you know you should play bill by Baggins I was like should I you know yeah okay but I but I wasn't not every last ounce of my being was invested in you know and that's not to say I was not caring about it I'm eternally glad i did the it did the hobbit but i wasn't putting that kind of pressure on myself

and so getting that note was a nice thing i auditioned for sherlock i once badly because i was in a bad mood and i think they just caught a kind of angry vibe off me and these are people i knew like i you know i knew some of the team and and you know mark gaitis one of the co-creators is a is a old mate of mine you know but i think he think they thought i didn't really i don't think he really wants this. But then I said to my agent, no, can you please tell them I did want it? And I was just, I was in a bad mood or, you know, whatever. So they got me back to read with Benedict and, and it was frankly really good. You know, it was it, we clearly worked together, you know. So, but yeah, but since then, I'm not in the last 10 years. No, not really.

I wouldn't necessarily, I mean, Sherlock to a degree is a bit of a two-hander. There's obviously a great ensemble, but it really rests on you two. Um, it, it struck me when I heard, just a couple hours ago the comfort movie you selected there's some residents there sleuth which I haven't seen frankly in a long time but now you've given me an excuse to go back and check it out

is an exceptional two-hander Lawrence Olivier and Michael Kane talk to me about why you chose that as your comfort movies did that come like right off the top of your head like that's just a comfort movie no it didn't actually I kind of thought because these days I don't really watch comfort movies I suppose I watch comfort series I suppose

but when I was a child and into my teens, I used to watch that film a lot. You know, it was like taped off the television when I was very young. And it was the first time that I'd become aware of Michael Kane. Because I'd known the name Michael Kane.

It's like, you know, there are some names that before you know who the person is, you've got a very, like when I knew the name Shaka Khan before I'd ever seen Shaka Khan, right? And I thought Shaka Khan was like some old-timey, movie star or something. I was like,

get back, is that Shaka Khan? I knew that Shaka Khan, I'm sorry, no, I knew Michael Kane, Shaka Khan in Sli. They get confused for each other a lot, to be fair. So I knew Michael Kane as a name and I knew as a film star, but when I saw him in Sluf, I didn't realize he was, I suppose I, I didn't know people like that could be movie stars. You know what I mean? Because he was just this Londoner who was, well, not the

same as me but like not not a million miles from me right you know he was you know he was he's nice looking but he's not classically um you know matinee idol he sounds very very recognizable to me um and he looked great you know in that sort of early 70s styling in the in the film and laurence olivier is obviously lawrence livia you know it's brilliant but i just love that it's obviously based on a play it's a two-hander play but for those of you who No, well, no, there is a spoiler coming. There's a spoiler coming. There's a reveal at some point where Michael Kane is pretending to be somebody else,

and it's revealed that it's actually Michael Kane that now maybe looks obvious if you, you know, because with the aid of 48 years, you know. But when I first saw it, when I was like 10, 9 or 10, I just thought this is the best thing I've ever seen in my life. So I used to watch it a lot. And I think it's where I sort of fell in love with acting. And I think it's probably where I subconsciously, before I knew I wanted to be an actor,

the seeds were probably laid there, more by Michael Kane than Lawrence Lydia. Although Laurence Libby is obviously, yeah, they're brilliant together. Where do you stand on a on death trap? I think of death trap in this, in this milieu as well. Oh, yes. Now that, hang on, remind me which one death trap is. Death traps.

That's Michael again with, I, And again, it's been a while. I hope I have this right. Christopher Reeve. Oh, yes, I know. Yeah, yeah. Not Ben Kingsley. That's without a clue.

Sorry. Yeah, it's Michael Kane, Christopher Lee. They're lovers, aren't they? Yes. Yeah. You're just spoiling movies left and right. You want to do the crying game and that's next? Sorry.

Yeah. Is that a spoiler that they're lovers? It's been a while. Maybe it's not, I think, not from the get-go, but maybe it's not like the end of the film. Yes. I like Death Trap, but I prefer sleuth. I just think there's something something

It's like a perfect little piece of chamber music sleuth. It's contained two guys in it who are both flipping brilliant actors. It's a great sort of, you know, that sort of very English, old-fashioned crime drama as a sort of who done it. The twists and turns of it are really good. There's stuff in it about class. There's stuff in it about the generational thing. Little bits of xenophobia. just peppered through it, you know, but just not done in a sledgehammer political way,

but just sort of who these two people are. One of them is an Anglo-Italian working-class guy who's a hairdresser, new money. The other is an English aristocrat sort of crime, sort of a male Agatha Christie sort of thing, who lives basically in a castle, you know, it's a fantastic stately home and is every, this other young whippersnapper is not. Have you crossed paths with Sir Michael? I can't remember off top of my head. Have you shared the screen?

Not. I think probably not since I saw you. I did meet him a few years ago at an event where lots of lovely people were and it was like a dinner thing. And like, you know, Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg were there. And Simon, I think, had known, Simon or Edgar had known that I've always

that I've always loved Michael Cain. I've always loved him. The good, the bad, all of it. I just, you know, I love him. And one of the, I think it was maybe Edgar said, come and meet Michael Gain because they were on an adjacent table. And I went over and I immediately went, hi, I'm Michael. And he went, no, I'm Michael, you're Martin.

I was like, oh God, that's right. Can we take that again? Yeah, can we please do that again? and uh but he either knew who i was or he pretended to know who i was in a very gracious way and and i'll take either frankly like if he if he knows who i are because he said he said i know who you are yeah i think you're very good uh shakira she look this is martin freeman and my and simon said that's exactly what he said to him as well Ghiara, you like Simon, but I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe he liked me in Simon, but um

I want Simon to bring you down. It was a special moment. Allow yourself to have that. I don't think he was doing it in a, in a horrible way, but um, he was, he was sort of laughing because he was, he was there and he said that it was, you know, it made me kind of emotional because, you know, I lost my mum a few years ago and she was very aware of like how much I, and she really loved Michael Kane as well. Um, because sort of, you know in a way if if you're English and of a certain generation what's not to like about Michael Kane and I thought it was and again don't get me wrong he I didn't come away thinking Michael King definitely thinks I'm brilliant you know but I thought well I've met someone

who sort of may know me now the 17 year old me would have been dumbfounded by that you know amazed by that and I've met a few people in acting I've met more in music but I've met a few people in acting who if you told me as a 14 year old would ever go oh Martin I think I think you're like what you do I wouldn't have known how to breathe you know right so yeah that was one of those I came away so almost with a tear in my I thought that that for me maybe the only time I ever meet Michael came but that's like I've I've done it I've sort of that that felt like an achievement in a way do you know what I mean yeah it's obviously nothing to him but for me it was

like, yeah, he, and I, because I was able to tell him what I wanted to sell him, which is, you are undoubtedly one of the reasons I became an actor, so thank you for that. And, and he was very gracious and he accepted it and complimented me. But again, whether, whether or not it's not, but whether or not he was just being polite, but it was, it was just very, um, yeah, it was lovely to sort of, that felt like a little landmark, you know, so I thought this man has no clue that probably subconsciously he's the reason I wanted to be an actor. Because I think he was the first actor and that performance in Sluth was the first performance that I sort of imbibed, you know, that I really, I would find myself kind of emulating to nobody, you know,

at the age of 11. But, you know, there were certain lines in it and certain just looks and attitudes that he had that I thought that's just very attractive, you know, really, really attractive. Speaking of things and people and things that you admire, are you intrigued that your old buddy Peter Jackson has a Beatles documentary? Yeah, I'm so excited about that. I actually dreamt about that last night. Yeah, I dreamt about that last night. So, yeah, I've been meaning to drop him a line about that, about how excited I am.

I mean, yeah, you know, Peter's great. He loves the Beatles. I bumped into him a couple of years ago in London and he said just the amount of film that they had access to is just ridiculous and he said it really does when you look at it in its entirety it really does slightly set the record straight

that it's not true that that entire period for the Beatles was just rancor and arguing and you know he said there was a lot of genuine laughter with a lot of warmth but for whatever reasons. I mean, I'm sure there was also, you know, arguing. Of course there was, but and there must have been some bad feeling because it must have come from somewhere, that idea. But they said, no, there was mainly, it was a group of people who really made each other

laugh and who got on, you know. But all we love about is the downside. Yeah. You guys should do the same thing on Sherlock and set the record straight from all the tabloid rumors, release all the documentary footage. See, we were having a good time. We don't hate each other. Trust me. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I wish, yeah. We just needed more behind the scenes footage. I mean, there is a fair bit, I suppose. There is a fair bit, my God. As the years go by, I mean, you're even further removed from the last series.

I know Benedict was questioned about it, and this is one of those things that, like, you're like the Friends cast. Every day, the rest of your life, you're going to be asked about the reunion. Yes. Yeah, I mean, as of today, do you have any different thoughts like movie, another series? I'm good where I'm at. I mean, I think we're all good, but I think we're all, you know, myself, Ben, Stephen Moffitt, Mark Gates,

is something, you know, we're all busy, thankfully. And I think we're all enjoying, I hope we're all enjoying what we're doing. Is this shadow bothering you? God, my shadow's worse than yours, don't worry. And they can't see us anyway, so it's just us. Okay. I think we're all good where we're at, but I think we also all know the value of what we made together. I think we did something really, really good.

I still love that show. and you know if my kids are watching it in the in the sitting room i'll come in and i'll flop down and watch it with them and think wow this was a really good job you know and i knew it at the time i was very proud of it at the time but um my feeling is as it's always been um probably you know what probably in sub subconscious way everything like not everything but this is influenced by the beetles excuse me um or at least i agree with them uh, things should be finite, you know, yeah, I think things are supposed to end. Now that's, that's not my, that's not my headline about.

No, I got you. That's what I've always sort of felt, uh, is like, well, why do you want, like, if we do loads, loads more, then you'll end up not liking it and it can't keep that quality. Um, quality. But the truth is, if there could be, if there's a situation where there's a, an appropriate one off or whatever, I, I'm not sure. I have not seen Ben's quote, but it was quoted back to me today. roughly that you know you can see it maybe as a film and yeah I think maybe more that than another three I'm not sure another three episodes but I know he and I

both really think it's fantastically written and the best episodes are yeah I mean some of the best things I've ever done definitely or be or been involved with you know they're beautifully written beautifully directed it looks a beautifully shot you know it's a very very stylish show and it's sort of easy to forget now because even though it's like 10 years ago it was very ahead of its time I think as a television program there was not much around like show look do you know what I mean yesistically or content wise and yeah I'm very very proud of it so that yeah the truth is of course yeah I think

never say never never but at the same time I'm not going oh you know when are we going to get together again and I'm not saying I can't wait but I also I know how good Stephen and Mark are and how much they love that world and how much they know the world of Conan Doyle, the original material, and how good they are at playing with that and adapting that. Obviously, it would be in mine and Ben's interests to be open to it, yeah. Looking back, you know, this has been this last year has been a year just fulfilled so many tragic losses and frankly, none hit, I think, many of us harder than the loss of Chadwick Boseman, which was just shocking in just so many ways. I would expect that loss.

colors you're looking back at your own experiences working with him closely with him working on black panther um does it make you reevaluate rethink sort of those those times on set with him and ryan cougler a bit yeah it does a bit because it makes me reevaluate his workload you know because which i thought was impressive at the time you know at the time i remember just laughing at him when he was telling you know like just thinking how are you doing this Because he was like saying, oh yeah, yeah, a lot of the time I'm up in the gym before filming and then often I'll go to the gym after film. I was like, Jesus, mate, you're doing like 12 hour a day and then you're going to the gym before and after. And I was just laughing.

I just found that hilarious. You know, like how are you doing this? You're leading a film and you're also basically being a professional athlete, you know. I was amazed by that. And knowing what we know now, it's incredible. Obviously, it's incredible that he did all that and kept it in. Yeah, I don't, I don't understand, I don't understand how he did that. Well, and especially in this era where like everyone is encouraged to just be like such an open book and just put every aspect of your life on Instagram and celebrities like, you know, the more followers you have, the more marketable you are and he just, he didn't play that game.

He just, I find it incredible. I mean, I find it, I mean, I almost couldn't believe it. I asked a couple of people at Marvel, you're telling me you really didn't know. I know that every direct spike didn't know that Cougar didn't know, it's crazy. No, I find it incredible. But yeah, he just wanted to get his head down

and it seems to me, you know, I wasn't his best mate, but it seems to me like he just wanted to get as much work done as possible in the time he had left. It was really shocking. I woke up to a text from one of my oldest friends, Damon. And he just, had written, Chadwick Boseman exclamation mark and I was like what has he has he been knighted or so I thought

has he got some honor you know yeah it was real yeah real awful shock awful are you are you plugged in at all to the future of Marvel and potentially your character or you I'm about to be plugged in more by Ryan Coogler because I know I'm in the next background but I don't know what shape that takes and I don't know what that will look like same as anybody you know I'm as curious as you are because I don't know how I don't know how it's going to work I don't know what it's going to look like um i just know i'm i'm in it so we yeah hopefully this year sometime you know everyone you know everyone who works for marvels not really quite sure what they're allowed to say but um i mean there's there's nothing i can say you know apart from the fact

that you know ryan told me a long time ago that i was in it i think he told me before chad died actually and uh and then when he passed i was like oh okay i maybe they just won't be a black plent for them in that place but you know i i trust that they're going to do it in a way that it's tasteful and yes respectful to that world and to chadwick you know yeah the future of breeders do you have another season or two and you for this one definitely another season we want to do yeah you know um you know we're not doing it yet you know because we finish this one in December just before christmas and we're all doing other stuff as well but yeah we would like to do it in a while. Yeah. If we get the, if we get the chance, I think we sort of, we have

plans afoot. Yeah. Well, I'm glad this gave me an excuse to catch up to this show. I greatly enjoyed it, Martin. Always enjoy what you're up to. I'm glad we got a chance to catch up, even in our weird little Zoom boxes. Hopefully next time in my weird office back in New York. Thank you very much. I love me to see you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pleasure to do this by Josh.

Goodbye. Summer movies, Hello, Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the ultimate movie podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases.

We have Leonardo DiCaprio, leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar. In The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLewis' return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two.

Tron Ares looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar Wrights, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify and YouTube.