Happy Sad Confused - Matt Damon

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Matt Damon has worked with all the great filmmakers but it's his 3rd go round with Christopher Nolan that may just have resulted in the role of his career as Odysseus in THE ODYSSEY. He joins Josh to talk about the role, the gratitude he feels, and how much he owes his female stunt double. Plus, a 2021 flashback chat talking about the roles that got away including AVATAR and THE DARK KNIGHT! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man. This July, we're faced with a threat. That can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility.

Talk to Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day. In theaters, July 31st. It's nighttime, there are towers on fire. There's a thousand extras in battle arm running through the streets. There's all this fight choreography going on. And I'm walking through all this.

And Huita Van Hoitima is behind me with the camera on his shoulder. A guy runs by. He's on fire. He's on the fire. Part of the film. Part of the film. This is all planned. No, there's a safety team waiting for him.

Like, this is all coordinated somehow. And Chris calls cut. And Hoyta puts the camera down and turns to me and goes, this is a flashback. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today, our exploration of the Odyssey continues with the man himself, Odysseus is in the house.

Matt Damon back on the podcast, plus a special blast from the past with Matt. Hey, guys, thanks as always for checking out Happy Sad Confused. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube on Spotify. Don't miss a single episode. We give you the best in film and TV week and week out. We do our best. So hopefully by now you're a subscriber. If not, get with the program, guys.

Come on. So most recently, we shared our Christopher Nolan conversation, a blast from the past of Christopher Nolan, and we had to continue covering the Odyssey because this is one that demands multiple episodes, and there will be more to come, safe to say. But this episode features Odysseus himself, Matt Damon. This is another one like the Christopher Nolan episode.

say this is a bit of an unusual format because as I said on the Chris Nolan conversation, they weren't really doing the long form chats too much for this leg of the publicity tour. But I couldn't skip out on the Odyssey because of that. So what I did was, and I had the same discovery I had Chris Nolan, which is I have a happy say I confused episode with Matt Damon that has never been shared in video form. We talked back a few years ago during the pandemic times when we were. just starting to pivot to video. I did it did Matt over Zoom, but we never ran the video yet. We at that time, we just weren't doing it. So what you're going to see in here today, however

you're enjoying this, is my most recent conversation with Matt Damon about the Odyssey. Fantastic. Talk a lot about this amazing opportunity. We even tease actually a little bit about his upcoming movie with the Daniels, which I'm very excited about and more. We pack a lot into 10 minutes. But then after that, you're going to get kind of a bonus episode that very few people have heard, let alone no one has seen, except for me, this conversation with Matt Damon way back when, which has so much great stuff in it, I will say. This has this fantastic story about the Michael Mann version of Goodwill Hunting that nearly happened. This has stories about turning down Harvey Dent in the Dark Night, speaking of Christopher Nolan. This has stories about

auditioning for Robin in Batman? Yeah, there's some amazing stuff in this conversation. So I couldn't believe I had never shared the video before. So I'm thrilled this gives an excuse to give this a little love. So that's the main event today. As always, quick reminder, remember, check out our Patreon because that's what helps support and make this show weekend and week out. Patreon.com slash happy, say it confused, early access, discount codes, autograph,

merch, access to our live events. Reminder, I'll be in San Diego in just a few days, moderating panels on Friday, Blade Runner 2099, and Saturday, Apple. And that's going to include Silo, Widows Bay, Matchbox, the movie, tons of really cool stuff. So I hope to see some of you guys out there in person in San Diego. Okay, let's get right to it. We continue to revel in all things, The Odyssey, this huge, huge event that is the latest from Christopher Nolan.

First up, you're going to see in here. This new conversation with Matt Damon followed very quickly thereafter with this blast from the past that nobody has ever seen. So enjoy Matt Damon for your eyes and ears right now on happy, sad, confused. Matt, good to see you, man. Great to see you. You played this one well. You slow played it. You know, you did the, you turned down Harvey Dent back in the day. We talked about that. Then you take the two supporting roles. It's the Killian Murphy School. Is it a slow play? Play the long game. I learned it from Killian. But it has to be a moment, like in a career filled with moments.

Yeah. To get the call for this, this director, this film. Tell me about it. It was just the greatest call I could ever want professionally. And the experience was just

it lived up to every everything I could have ever wanted. It was so challenging. Not just for me, for everybody. And the experience of trying to do something this ambitious, you know, a story that's this foundational to, you know, Western culture and, and, you know, all in IMAX. I mean, the whole thing was just this insanely ambitious undertaking. And to get to

be a part of that was just phenomenal. I mean, you've worked with the best of the best. We've, we've gone through the list filmmakers in your career. And you've obviously worked with Chris now a few times. You've worked with Ridley. And, you know, he's like the school of Ridley in some ways. This is kind of his really Scott movie, I feel like, in some ways. That's right. Like being on these sets, these six different countries, all these extras, there must be those moments where you're like, this is, this doesn't happen anymore. Yeah, every day. I mean, look, there was a scene.

We were shooting Troy, and it's nighttime. There are towers on fire. There's a thousand extras in battle arm running through the streets. There's all this fight choreography going on, and I'm walking through all this. And Hoytta van Hoitima is behind. me with the camera on his shoulder. A guy runs by, he's on fire. He's part of the film.

Part of the film. Part of the film. This is all planned. No, there's a safety team waiting for him. Like, this is all coordinated somehow. And Chris calls cut, and Hoytta puts the camera down and turns to me and goes, this is a flashback. And we just started laughing. We were like, oh, my God, the scale of this.

Just a little insert. Yeah, just a little flashback. Yeah. This is a question only you can ask. answer. What's worse? Living inside of a horse with 50 men or rooming with Ben Affleck for a time? I'm going to have to choose the horse for that one. It was, it was tough inside the horse. But, you know, shooting that, Chris, I asked him, was so curious how he was going to do it. And he said, I don't know. I said, what do you mean? He said, no, we're just going to get in there.

And it's such an interesting thing with him. He really has a deep understanding of all the elements he's going to need. And he's on top of every bit of design. And he's meticulous. This attention the detail is incredible and it's, I mean, legendary. But he still shoots like an independent film. He still discovers the moments. And you still have incredible creative freedom within the context of what he's building around you. So it's how he gets what he gets.

Does the appreciation kind of grow greater as you've, you know, you've walked some miles now in the career? And like, I would imagine it. For sure. And, you know, the ups and downs happen for anybody. Do you take a moment on set? I mean, the job is the job. You have to focus on the job, but I would hope maybe moments like this, you can kind of take a moment.

No, even on set, I felt like a real sense of gratitude every day. That even, you know, whatever would, whatever came of the film, the fact that I got to have the experience of doing something at that scale, the way David Lean would have done it, you know, was just like, but this, because those opportunities are, you know, few and far between. And particularly at my stage and my career. It's talking like you're like, Hume Cronin, like you're like. No, but, but, but, but, well, I'm older. than Wilford Brimley when he did cocoon. I'm about to pass it myself. Comes up quicker than you think.

So I was, I did think about that a lot. I can congratulate you on three fronts. The acting, the beard, and I'm not one to objectify, but this is the greatest bicep work I've seen outside of a Hemsworth. Thank you. Oh, wow, that's high praise. That's very high praise. I'll tell Chris.

Like, all the credits, it should have said, like, with Zendaya and Matt Damon's biceps. It needs its own title card, I feel like. Well, you know, when we did the forced perspective stuff of the Lestragonians, I don't know if there's been a thing about how we did it, but there were, you know, there were these kind of stuntmen who were all seven feet, right? And then they got stunt men who were under five feet. And so my double was a woman, a female stunt performer who had the greatest arms I've ever seen. And when she came into the catering tent was the first time I met her, I went up and I hugged her and like and so you know for and and I and I thanked her for like

all the work she'd put in and and and so there are those shots in the movie where you see these giants looming over me yeah and and that's so so it was almost 100% my arms in the movie but you got to get credit where it's due got to got to give it up where it's due um give me a sense like you've had again had moments in the career I'm sure seeing the finished product sitting in a theater like is there anything you can equate this to like a moment going back no no no no and I don't think I've had the experience of being so overwhelmed. I feel like I put so much into it.

It came at such a cost and it was such a joy that my expectations I just would have been unrealistic for it. And so like I almost couldn't see it. It's like, you know, and and then I sat and then I saw it in IMAX and I got it. And I was like, wow, I, you know, this was, it was a. kind of capstone moment in my career. I feel real grateful I got a chance to do it. What do you do the day after rap?

Like what's, is it right to the spa? Like what happens? Go home. Like your family. Yeah, exactly. You went home, we've made it. I made it home. Yeah.

And also like, look, you're number one on the call sheet obviously, but that being said, this is like an ensemble like you've never seen. And you've been number one a lot in your career. But like it must just be such a, you know, you know that responsibility, but to look around and to see the company of actors, he's assembled around you. It's incredible. And it also meant that every day I was working with some other extraordinary person. And they all just slotted right into their roles.

They fell right into these roles and they were so good. And obviously that makes my job so much easier when you're acting opposite somebody who's that dialed in. It just makes the entire experience just a joy. you adding the Daniels to your resume too? It sounds like you're going to work with them. Yeah. How insane does that script read? I can only imagine.

It's exactly what you'd hope. In that I have no idea what to expect. And that it's not like anything you've seen. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, I'm really excited to work with them. Is that another easy yes when you read that script and you have that conversation? Yeah, and also just them.

But I really, they're just lovely people who have lovely things to say and want to put, you know very positive vibes out into the world we could use some last thing seen anything good lately film TV I just went and saw obsession the other night with with the kids and you know at our little local spot and and that was great I really I thought you know I mean every in Indian Averett's incredible incredible but I thought all four of them all the actors were yeah were terrific in it and and I'm happy to see you know a smaller movie outkick its coverage that way. A 26-year-old. Do you know something about being

the wonderkind? It's good to see the next one. I do. And I'm real happy for everyone involved with that one. Yeah, congrats on this man, honestly. Always nice to see you, buddy. Thanks. Great. Appreciate you, Josh. Yeah, yeah. We'll be right back with more Happy, Happy, Sad, Confused. The Hulu original series

Furious is coming to Disney Plus. Starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. This episode is brought

to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales. Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. Hey, Matt. How's it going, buddy? Hello, Josh. How are you, man?

I'm doing well. Hello from Midtown. I take it you're in the environs. You're in the New York. I feel your presence in the New York. I'm in Brooklyn. I'm in Brooklyn. Yeah, I feel your force too. You're within. I can look down.

I see Midtown out there here. There you go. This has been a long time coming. I've wanted to have you on the podcast forever. Of course, we've talked at Junkets and all those kinds of things, but I appreciate you taking the time out for this one. And we chose the right one, I think. Tom McCarthy is a special filmmaker.

Congratulations in Stillwater, man. Thank you, man. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really happy with it. So, first of all, this made its debut in Cannes. I'm always, I'm endlessly fascinated by the phenomenon. of the lengthy standing ovation when it happens in can and you guys were privileged enough to get one. At what point does the standing O get awkward after, it feels like five minutes is an eternity.

Five minutes may not sound like much to somebody, but that's a long time to stand on your feet while people are clapping. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, yeah, it's very strange. And it's awkward immediately. There's nothing not awkward about it. Adam Driver actually, he crushed it this year. Apparently, he lit a cigarette in the middle of the standing away. And he doesn't smoke, but it was like he just had to, he just wanted to do something. You know, I thought that was really funny.

I read it, but I haven't talked to him about it yet. But anyway, yeah, it's very odd. But this year I was really, you know, kind of oddly emotional. Like, it just snuck up on me that moment of just being back in the movie theater again. Yeah. It just felt so great to be with everyone. And, you know, and maybe I'm just getting old. I said that to Tom McCarthy.

I was like, I think I'm getting old because I'm really emotional right now. No, I mean, we've all been, we were all suffering from PTSD from the last year and a half. I mean, I found myself getting emotional when I was in the theater for Fast 9. So something is wrong with me. Listen, that's a tearjerker. Okay. I haven't seen yet, but obviously. I've read all about it.

When they go into space, waterworks, man. It's amazing. Do they go into space in Fast 9? Oh, no, I ruined it for you. I'm so sorry. You didn't ruin it for me. I just got to see the other eight. Exactly.

I knew this about your career, but when I was prepping for this, I was reminded of the fact that to look at your filmography is to look at the history of great filmmakers of the last 25 years. It's kind of insane.

I want to get to that in a second, but let's start with like, for me, it's a no-brainer that you end up working with Tom McCarthy. So Tom is a fantastic filmmaker. People know him from work as diverse as, you know, the station agent to spotlight. From what I gather,

he's been trying to get you in his orbit for a while. What happened? Did Dinklage beat you out for a station agent? What went down? I wish I was in station agent. I mean, that was when I first became aware of, Tom, like, you know, and that's interesting you bring, bring up Peter, like, the acting in Tom's movies is always great, you know, and I mean, look, that has a lot to do with the writing and the

directing. I mean, he's putting his actors in, in a position to do good work, but, right, I mean, it's uniformly great, you know, I mean, you know, Peter, Canavalli, Jenkins, like, all these guys, you know, are just awesome all the time. And, and I, and, and, yeah, I, and yeah, I, and yeah, I had been looking for, you know, I almost did spotlight, but it conflicted with the Martian. So I, you know, it was like I had to choose between a kind of a headlining role and an ensemble role, and they were both great. Right.

And I don't like normally saying about, you know, things that, look, a lot of the movies I've done were things that other actors couldn't do. Like, you're very rarely the first choice for something. And I don't like saying that about Spiley just because Ruffalo crushed it. And Ruffalo, I think he got nominated for an Oscar. And it's like an amazing performance. So I always feel like the right actor gets the job. You know what I mean?

Like I looked at Spotlight and I was like, well, thank God, you know, because Mark killed it. I had that happen with milk years ago. You know, Gus offered me the part of Dan White that Josh Rowland also got nominated for. And Josh is, and I literally, I had to, I was in the movie. I was doing the research. I was reading. I was watching these documentaries and I'd kind of doing my deep dive on Dan White. And Sean Penn had a conflict.

I can't remember what it was, but he had to push the movie six months. And because it pushed from the fall to the spring, I suddenly couldn't do it because I already had another job. And so I had to give it up. And, you know, it wasn't a big part. It was a supporting role. But I love that script so much. And I love Gus. obviously. And so it was a hard one to pass up. But then I saw the movie and I saw Brolin.

And I was like, man, this happened for a reason. Like, this guy's amazing. So anyway, I was going to say, does it ever happen where, like, some other famous ones and you've talked in recent years about like Avatar. And I remember, I think we talked briefly at one point about Dark Knight. Like when those ginormous cultural phenomenon films come out, do you have a tough time seeing them? Like, is it weird? Do you have a tough time watching Avatar or Dark Night, knowing like, oh, wait, I could have been part of that. Well, Dark Knight was a small role that I was offered. Like, it was a, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't one.

I mean, it obviously wasn't Heath or Christian's part. Right. But it was the Harvey Dent role, wasn't it? It was the, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, and so, like, sometimes you look at a role and you're like, oh, it's good. It's a, it's a good role in a great movie. I mean, I subsequently did a small role in one of Chris's movies.

Sure. right in in interstellar like i like i i i wanted to be on you know part of that troop he he he works with the same actors over and over and they're they're they're terrific and you know i wanted to jump on that on that on that on that ride but um but there was some other big movie i was like in some big part that i was doing where i was like well i can't play you know harvey dent you know what i mean it's like this is this is it's a relatively small role and i'm i'm headlining this other thing so anyway sometimes those, but I think you got to kind of just be sanguine about it and go like it, it all works out.

Like, I mean, at this point, I passed on the biggest payday in the history of, right? I mean, accidentally, but like, so I can never do worse financially. That's a good way of looking at. I can never commit a worse financial, like, don't, you know, error. Don't doubt yourself. I believe in you. You could fuck up even more in the future. I might be able, maybe I'll figure out some way, there'll be some screaming thing that I could have, you know, owned part of the company or something, you know, and it turns into the next Facebook.

But anyway, I, you know, so, but I'm not, you know, I really do believe the actor gets the part that they're meant to get. And, and who knows, like, you know, had I done Avatar, would I have, would I, would I have written the last duel? Would I have, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah. You know, when Ben and I got really close on Dead Poets Society, not really close, we got called back. That script, well, I mean, I was, I don't know, I was 18 years old and I read this thing.

And I was like, that's, it's the best script. Robin Williams was the star, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. This is amazing. And it was an open casting for kids to play these prep school kids. And Ben and I were, I mean, you talk about like lit up for something, like this was it for us. I mean, it was an unbelievable opportunity. And I would still say it was.

I mean, you look at the careers that came out of that, Ethan Hawke, Robert Sean Lederd, I mean, amazing actors, right? So those guys beat us out. And Ben and I ended up that summer working at a movie theater in Cambridge and Harvard Square at the Janus movie theater and the Janus played one movie all fucking summer and it was Dead Poet Society. and we had to tear tickets and serve popcorn and soft drinks to and sweep up after every show.

And we would watch packed house after packed house coming out wiping tears off their face. And we were like, fuck, that could have been us. You know what I mean? That should have been us. That was us. You know what I mean? And we didn't get it. And I think there's a Garth Brooks song.

Is there somebody where he talks about, I thank God for my unamborough. answered prayers. Right. Right. Because we wouldn't have written goodwill hunting. Like we, we ended up writing out of necessity, goodwill hunting. And guess what? Robin Williams was in it. There was a better plan. You just weren't in control of it necessarily. We just controlled. So you never know. I mean, life is crazy. And, you know, you just got to keep trying to do good work. And, and, you know, I mean, had I done Avatar, it's like my favorite John Krasinski's story. Like when we were writing Promise Land together and I told John that I passed on 10% of Avatar, John jumped up and he starts walking around the kitchen and he's like, okay, okay, okay, okay.

Because nothing in your life would be different. Nothing, Matt. Nothing in your life would be different if you had done Avatar except you and I would be having this conversation in space. with Richard Francis and chef Bezos yeah exactly that's it and then and then the guys who actually have that money actually launched themselves in giant space penises like space rockets penis rockets and fucking go to space it's like you can't write this shit no you can't so coming full circle yes Tom McCarthy came back to you thankfully with the right role and the right project um this is a a fascinating one. It makes sense in Tom's work if you look at it because it kind of combines the different elements he's done. It's like it completes his like displaced men box set, which I feel like is like the visitor and station agent. But it also has this like amazing kind of procedural

thriller kind of aspect of spotlight. And I think that's what makes it work and what makes it endlessly fascinating is it kind of keeps kind of, I don't know, just like it keeps you on your toes. But I would also imagine that's the fear. It's like, can we blend all this together? Is this character study and this thriller all going to blend together? Did you have concerns as a writer, as a creator, going in that this was all going to kind of gel? I mean, if you're really literal about things and you need to put it in a genre, I mean, and I think in America, that's definitely more the case with critics. Like, they need to, I know, what is this?

What are you showing me right now? You know what I mean? What's the comp? Give me, is it? Yeah, what's the comp? Right, it's like they think the way studios think, right? Like, and that's kind of the way we talk about the film business in this country. But for me, it's like, all right, it's about this character.

Are you going to go on the ride with him? If you buy what I'm doing, then just get on the bus and go. And the movie takes you to really surprising places. And, and, and, and, and like, yeah, I mean, you just, you, you can't predict, like Tom said to me, where we're making it, like, I defy you moviegoer to tell me where this movie is going to take you. Like, you know, when you sit down. Because you, because it does sit, it does look like a very pat, you know, it does look like a, like a movie we've seen before with the setup, right?

Yes. You, it goes, well, okay, this movie is telling me a really traditional thing that American movies tell me like I'm about to sit down for an awesome Liam Neeson movie. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like and a gas and take names. Yeah, or Jason born for that matter. Same kind of like those characters.

It's like, you know, they have a particular set of skills. You know what I mean? And they're going to, and this guy doesn't have any of that. He doesn't speak the language. He doesn't understand the culture that he's trying to navigate. He doesn't know what's going on. He's lost. He doesn't know what's going on for me.

most of the movie. He doesn't understand what's happening around him. And that's a, that's a very human story with a very traditional setup, right? And so, and so that, that throw, I think that's going to throw people. It's thrown some people, you know, because they go, they go, well, you can't do this. And it's like, well, no, we're, we're, we're taking this set up and we're, but we're playing it real. We're playing it. These are, these are real people. This is a guy who's carrying a lot of pain and grief and and and regret and shame, you know, about his own failures as a man and as a father. And he's trying to repair the damage that he's done with his daughter. And he's still making mistakes.

And like, that's the movie. It's a drama, not a thriller. No, I mean, the thriller version of this. Like, I mean, I love like the risks like the, the, that Tom and you take in that like, you kind of skip like the first act that would be in another thrill. Right. Like the conventional version of this is like the first scene in the fugitive where like the mystery, the murder happens and then you're trying to figure it out. But in this, you don't even know that a murder is taking place for 20 minutes.

It's kind of crazy. Yeah, you pick it up midstream. Like you like when that was so when people like talk about the Amanda Knox story, which, you know, this is like loosely kind of used off, used as a jumping point kind of like jumping off point. Like because what Tom was interested in was like, what happens to that family like five years later? Yeah. Like when everyone, all the camera, all the sensationalism, everything's gone away. Like, how do those people live their lives? And what if one of them was a roughneck from Oklahoma from like this really specific place?

Yeah. And was this really specific thing. Like, what, you know, and he had to interact with that world. Like, what does that life look like? And so that's, so you're right. Like the movies, the first act kind of, you know, you feel almost like you're starting in the second act. because they're in the middle of trying to live through this thing with the consequences of the choices that they've made. I ask for some questions from the listeners.

So this one is from Magali, who gets at some of what we've been talking about. She wanted to know if you've ever experienced the situation of being a stranger and having to deal with cultural differences. And what would you say about being an American in Marseille? You shot a lot of this in Marseille, of course. Yeah, I mean, constantly, it's actually become a comfortable place for me to be. I've worked so many times in so many different countries, you know. And there's always that moment where you show up with your suitcase and you don't speak the language and you don't know the city and you're, you know, and you got to figure it out. And, and, you know, it's crazy.

I didn't go to Europe until I was 26 when I went to shoot Saving Private Ryan was the first time I got off of this continent and went over there. And subsequently, I have traveled so much. Like, I kind of chuckled when I got that question because that's happened to me so many times. But I would just say to anybody who gets the chance to travel to, I have a friend who recently told me, which I thought was a great line. He goes, I just say yes. He goes, just to life. He goes, because you know what happens when you say no. You stay in your house.

And, and, and, and, and, and, and you say yes, something's going to happen. And I thought that was such a great, like, something's going to happen. And if you can get your way over there, you know, something's going to happen. And it might just be great. More happy say confused coming up. Hear that? It's your money calling. It wants a promotion.

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I started this by mentioning how my theory is that your career is kind of like the unofficial history of like great filmmakers of the last 25 years. Indulge me for a second. I'm going to read the list. This is the partial list of filmmakers. For those that don't like can't wrap their brains around it, it's kind of startling just to hear them listed. In no particular order, James Mangold, Stephen Soderberg, Alexander Payne, Terry Gilliam,

Ridley Scott, Christopher Nolan, Cameron Crowe, Kenny Lonergan, the Cohn brothers, Quint Eastwood, Martin Scorsese, Augusta, Robert Redford, Anthony McGill, Paul Greengrass, Francis Ford Coppola. Many of those you've worked with several times, by the way. It's, I mean, it's a startling list. And I guess the general question is how much of it was a strategy and how much of it was happenstance. Like, you're a smart guy, you had opportunity. I'm going to go towards the icons. when I can, when I have the opportunity, and how much of it was just sort of like riding the wave. What's both things? I mean, I had the opportunity and I took it, but I definitely, if I had any strategy at all, it was aligning myself with great filmmakers.

And, you know, but look, I had to pass on a lot of great filmmakers in that time too. And it's also like, you know, it had to work out, you know, with my life. But I always, I always aired on the side of, of, you know, somebody, somebody whose movies I loved. Yeah. Because I figured, you know, it's like I was gonna get

something out of that experience, you know, and on balance, if you work with great filmmakers, the director's medium, as you know, obviously. So on balance, if you align yourself with great directors, you're gonna make good movies more often than not. And some of the movies I made didn't work, but, but I, I always got a lot out of the experience.

And that was the other thing. Like, it's not, you know, I do know actors who kind of approach with the strategy of, oh, I'm going to do a big one now. And if you end up in a movie that is quote unquote big, like, nobody knows what movies is big. Like, you don't know if the movie's going to, if, like, if you could predict what movies were big, then everybody would be an A-list movie star. Like, you have to go, you have to know why you're there.

And and it's such a time and labor intensive business. I can't imagine working on something that I didn't love. Like, and believe in. Like that, it just, you're still there for 15 hours every day. Like, I actually, I had a movie where, which I won't name, where I figured out probably one month in to a five month job that it wasn't going to work. Right. And and the depression that I went into, you know, but I really came away from that experience.

And my wife said to me, like, do your job. And it was like, it like released me. I went, yeah, you're right. The definition of a professional actor is somebody who knows they're in a turkey and shows up and goes 16 hours strong and with a positive attitude and lifts the people up around them. And it's like, I'm going to, I'm going to be the band playing on the fucking Titanic. And we're going to play some weird music. And I'm going to fucking smile the whole time.

Like, this is it. This is what I do. Like, you want to see me? Like, it was like a challenge. I was like, okay, let's go, you know. And, and, and, and I learned a lot from that, you know, I didn't. It wasn't just a, just a horrible kind of slog, like self, life defeating slog. I, I, I took away a lot of good lessons from that.

There's always a last, you know. I feel like there could be 16 different books and practically there have already in different forms of like the making of Goodwill hunting. But I'm always endlessly fascinated by the different versions that there were and the different filmmakers that almost came to directed. I heard you, I think on Maron the other day talking about how like Michael Mann was like screen testing you guys or going through auditions. Like I can't think of a more different filmmaker than from Gus Van Sant to Michael Mann. The Michael Mann version, what is the Michael Mann version of Goodwill hunting? What would that have been? I don't know.

I remember he showed us clips of Mexican gangs. And he was like, this is your movie. This is the movie you got to make. I was like, what? These dudes have neck tats and they're Mexican. Like, that's not at all what South Boston is, man. Like, I didn't understand. And, you know, I don't know.

I mean, I think he wanted to take it like in a really dark, like, you know, like, these dudes are like whacking people in the street. And I'm like, yeah. we're not doing the whitey bulger thing like we're like kids from that neighborhood but you know anyway but uh i just for that was that's funny i haven't thought about that in a long time but i but i do remember him showing like to ben and to me and we're sitting there and he walked out of the room and we looked at each other like the fuck is going on like he's we wrote it like you that's our movie okay so you're telling us that's our movie like you know but he

But look, I mean, every director comes at it with from their own, you know, the director past it. It is a director's medium, like I said. So like when we, when thank God, Gus finally, well, thank God Harvey finally gave the job to Gus. We had wanted Gus the whole time. Right. But we had an almost ceremonial moment where we like gave him the script.

And we're like, this is yours, man. This is not our movie anymore. I mean, a screenplay is like, it's like an architectural blueprint for a house, right? It's what you think the houses should look like. And then you got to build the house. And that's what the director does. And, you know, and so we, so we had to give it up to him, you know. And he made choices that we wouldn't have made.

And thank God he did. He made great choices. He thought of things that we never would have thought of. I mean, that's Goodwill Hunting's a Gus Van Samp movie. you know, that we wrote. But, but that's, that's what it is. Do you remember, Ben recently recalled your audition for the Robin role in the Tim Burton Batman that obviously never came to be?

They never actually had Robin in his two films. Do you remember, what's your version of that story? Do you remember that? Okay. So that, well, there's two, there's two stories there. There's the, there's the Robin Roll. We went down to New York, and that's in like 1986. I don't really remember that audition.

It was 1987, maybe, 88, 87, 88. I would have been like 16 or 17. And I don't remember, I remember that we didn't have sides for the, for the, there wasn't like you're reading a scene with Batman. It was like, it was so secretive that it was like, you're reading this other scene from some other movie, you know, and it's like, I never got the point of that, But there were some movies that did that back then.

I mean, I remember auditioning for him. Then subsequent to that, in 93, I got screen tested. I was one of the final three to play Robin in the George Clooney and the Joel Schumacher Batman. And I flew out and I remember I knew Joel, I had met Joel, and I had worked with Duval at that point because I remember talking to him extensively about Duval because he had done falling down with Duval. And I'm, you know, a big Duval guy, Duval and

Hackman and or you know yeah uh and i just done a movie with both of those guys this movie geronimo and so joel and i talked about that but i remember i tried to chris was chris o'donnell already had the part and uh but they were haggling over money and so they they they you know the studio was flexing basically by flying in two other people to screen test but they wanted chris but they just wanted him for a price. And I remember, and I knew Chris. And I remember calling. I was like, I'll work for a quarter of what that dude's wearing it. I was like, I want the job. Yeah, I flew in and audition for Joel, but I think they always intended the, I remember seeing Chris while he was making that. We were friends back then and they always intended to give it to Chris. And there were things, I remember, like,

at that stage in my career, you know, you would go in and read, even if you knew you weren't going to get the part. In fact, the Rainmaker, the movie that I did with Coppola, Patrick called me, Patrick Weitzel's been my agent for, I don't know, 30 years now. And Patrick called me and he goes, we'd been tracking this thing because the John Grisham movies were very, were very popular movies, right? They were big. But Francis doing a John Grisham movie was like, oh, yeah. It's like, the great, you know, it's like, yeah, the godfather is coming to John Grisham land. Like, You know, and the Godfather was a pulp novel. And, you know, Francis talked about that a lot. Like, so we were tracking that. I had read the book. I was like, what is going on? I know they're making it. I know they're making it. And Patrick was trying to track it.

And he called me out of the blue. I was living in Somerville, Massachusetts, because we thought Goodwill Hunting was going to go that year. It ended up going the next year. And Ben and I were living up there with Casey. And I got a phone call. And Patrick said, all right he goes i'm telling you right now you have a five percent chance at best of getting this movie he goes here's what's going on they're screen testing in memphis they've got three girls that they're screen testing right and and they only have two guys if you go to the airport right now and get on a plane and fly to memphis you're going to be the third guy but i'm telling you right now you you you have very you have almost no chance you're just like Like, you're just, you're like filling in. And I'm like, great.

Just put me in. Like, get me on the field, right? Yeah, yeah. And so I went and I flew down there. And I knew. So it was, it was Edward Norton, Balthazar Getty and me. And I didn't see Balthazar Getty on that trip. But Edward, Edward had beaten everybody out in L.A. for primal fear.

Sure. And Edward was, you know, I mean. He was getting everything. He was the hot shit in town then. Yeah, he was. And deservedly so. And still one of my. my favorite actors. And he was a guy who at that age, like I, you know, you got to kind of wolf out

at that stage of your career and feel like you're the best thing in the room. But it's like, it's like Charles Barkley once told me when he, when he went to play in this like all American thing when he was in college, his coach told him, Charles, you go up there, you show them, you know, you're, the Alabama, you represent Alabama, you show him, you're the best. And Charles got back, he goes, yeah, he goes, yeah, well, there's a dude from North Carolina. of pretty good. He played with Jordan, you know? And that's how I felt about Edward.

I just, I was like, look, man, I, you know. I believe in myself, but I just saw something pretty good across the. I saw something pretty good. That dude's good. And so Edward was there. And I was like, oh, shit, I'm going up against Edward Norton. He's already Edward Norton, right? He's already, like, I think he'd been nominated for an Academy Award at that point.

Yeah. Fuck, man. Well, well, this shit just got real. And I think because they paired me with Claire Daines. And the combo that worked. I really think she got me the part. I really think she that, you know, because she was so fucking good. I think she got me the part.

And, and that was, you know, that was a huge. And because I got that movie, Miramax greenlit Goodwell Hunting. Right? Because they were, they were like, you know. Yeah. You know, I remember I faxed Harvey Weinstein. like, I'm the rainmaker and he was like, what does that mean? And I was like, I got the Coppola movie.

And he goes, the Grisham movie. He said the Grisham movie. And I'm like the fucking Coppola movie. And he goes, oh, the Grisham movie. He goes, all those things make $100 million. Yeah. And so they make $100 million. Yeah, exactly.

Right. So we got fast track because, and if you ever look at the way they opened it, the, the rainmaker 97 came out in like November. Goodwill Hunting's, hunting started platforming in like early December. Like they were piggybacking. They were trying to draft off that. They didn't need to, it turned out, because there was this movie called Titanic and everybody went to the movie. So Goodwill Hunting ended up really drafting off of Titanic. Right.

Titanic was the number one movie for like 10 weeks or something. After some red. Yeah. But Will Hunting was the number two movie. Like we just stood in their slipstream. Yeah. Because when people couldn't get in, you know, you know, could people were just lined up around the block trying to get into Titanic, show after show. And if they couldn't get in, they'd be like, I, we'll go see that one. And so we did a, we did a lot, like that Titanic lifted up everybody who was in the theaters at that time. Like, it just was, everybody was going to the movies. I know I need to let you go in a second, but I do want to just hit really quickly on last

duel. The trailer looks fucking awesome. I could not be more psyched for this man. This is obviously you and Ridley, uh, reteaming after the Martian. But as people know, first screenplay that you and Ben have collaborated on. And you have Nicole Hollif Center also writing this, which is fascinating. And just to mention it, one other great aspect is Jody Comer, who I am an insane fan of. You're going to be a bigger fan

of Jody's after you see this movie. She's incredible. I'm obsessed with her already, yes. I walked away from that experience. There's a certain level of gratitude you feel as a writer when actors make your stuff better. And I

walked away from Adam and Jody. from that experience just going, I can't, you know, I literally can't thank you enough. Like they are, they are remarkable actors. And, and those roles were difficult. And they are great. And we saw it, just to give you a background, we saw it, you can't tell from the trailer, but you'll see in the movie, you know, we saw it as a story of these three different perspectives, right? And how we look at things based on how we're acculturated to, you know, take in, life. And so Ben and I wrote the male perspectives and Nicole wrote the female perspective. And

Jody is just, I just can't say enough about her. I mean, she's just awesome in this movie. And, and, you know, I'm really proud of it. You know, we'll see. It's still got to come out. And, you know, nobody's, nobody's seen it yet. But like, we've seen it. And I'm like, that's pretty good. Now, Ben, was initially, Ben initially was going to do the Adam role. I know he took a supporting role in this. I guess my question is, is there a meaty heat diner scene between you two guys? Do we get a little of Matt and Ben moment in this film? Well, I will say, I think it's, it might be,

Ben's a supporting role, but it might be the best thing he's ever done. He's incredible in this movie. He's really great. But, and I won't give too much away, Ben, historically speaking, anybody who reads this book that it's based on and reads this history, Pierre de Al-Anson, the guy who, who Ben plays did not like my character at all.

And in fact, my guy survived 600 years later as he's remembered as jealous and irascible. And you know, he's, you imagine like what kind of guy you'd have to be to be remembered that way six centuries later. So, you know. Impression, made him more. Yeah, we made quite an impression. So we thought about that as we were writing him, definitely.

Amazing, amazing. I can't wait to have a longer conversation with you and Ben and Jody and the whole team on that one. I'm very psyched for it. Congratulations, man, on this one. You and Tom McCarthy. It took a while, but I'm glad you got there. Everybody should check out Stillwater. It's a fantastic piece of work.

And I'm glad we have you back home here in New York where you belong. You bet, man. I'll see you around. Sorry, I'll see you soon. Thanks, buddy. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show. on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up?

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