Happy Sad Confused - Matt Damon, Zoe Lister-Jones (Vol. II)

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

For nearly three decades Matt Damon has been seemingly working his way through the great directors of our times so it's natural he'd end up working with a talent like Tom McCarthy (SPOTLIGHT). Matt joins Josh on the podcast for the first time(!) to chat about his new film, STILLWATER, saying no to films like AVATAR and THE DARK KNIGHT, and much more! Plus, stay tuned till the end of the podcast for a catch up with actor/filmmaker Zoe Lister-Jones on her new end of the world comedy (you read that right), HOW IT ENDS. Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! And listen to THE WAKEUP podcast here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Because when you're doing big things, your tools should to. Visit square.ca to get started. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Said Confused, Matt Damon, on the roles he took, the roles he turned down, and his new film, Stillwater. Plus, a conversation with Zoe Whisker Jones. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harrow.

It's welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Yep, a lot of bang for your buck. And when I say buck, I mean no bucks. The podcast is free. A lot of show, though, for you guys today. We have two great conversations. A little bit later on, I'm going to be catching up with Zoe Lister Jones previous guest on Happy Sack and Fused. Her great new film is how it ends. We'll get to that in a bit. That's coming up after my conversation with Matt Damon. But just so you know, if you're Zoe Lister Jones fan, want to hear about her new pandemic era apocalyptic comedy, how it is. ends that features an amazing cast, stick around that comes after the Matt Damon conversation. Okay, let's talk a little Matt Damon. Matt Damon, surprisingly, has never done Happy Say I Confused.

That's bonkers. I don't know how that happened, but we found, I think, the right project to talk about, and hopefully we'll have them back, and it won't take seven more years to get him back. The new film is Stillwater. Great new film, written and directed by the great Tom McCarthy. Tom McCarthy, if you don't know, has a fascinating filmography from everything. from the station agent, which of course had Peter Dinklage way back when, the visitor with Richard Jenkins, he won the Best Picture Academy Award for Spotlight, an amazing, an amazing

filmmaker, a great actor, by the way, too. And this new film is kind of, as I say in the conversation with Matt, an interesting blend of things he's done. It is a character study in many ways. Matt plays a kind of a roughneck from Oklahoma, who, you know, without revealing too much, basically finds himself in Marseille trying to help his daughter who has been accused of a crime. Based loosely on the Amanda Knox case, this film goes in unexpected directions. It's sometimes a thriller, sometimes kind of an introspective character study, as I said. It is always very engrossing and features some amazing, some amazing performances from Matt and Abigail Breslin and others.

I highly recommend it. It comes out this Friday. The film is Stillwater at Just debuted at Cannes, as we referenced in this conversation. It had a huge standing ovation there. Yeah, well worth your time. Stillwater is the film. But this conversation with Matt touches on a bunch of things. He's a great storyteller and is open and honest about the films he said yes to in his career.

And some of the films he said no to, some of the films he didn't get. Some great stories in here about auditioning to play Robin, not one. once but twice in two different Batman films. Some stories about, you know, going up against Edward Norton on early films. An amazing story about Michael Mann almost directing Goodwill Hunting. What would that would have been? So, yeah, a lot of good stuff in here. And plus, a little tease of his upcoming film coming out later this year that he has

reteamed with Ben Affleck on. This is the first screenplay they have co-written since Goodwill Hunting, nearly 25 years ago. It's called The Last Dual. I'm so in the bag for this one. It's directed by Wrigley Scott. It stars. In addition to Matt and Ben, Jody Comer and Adam Driver. Check out the trailer if you haven't seen it yet. It looks epic and fascinating. And I'm very excited to talk to Matt and Ben and Jody and the whole gang on that one. So anyway, this is a great conversation. I'm so excited for you guys to listen to it. Other quick things to mention, we have a new game night up as I speak on the Patreon page with Kevin Hart and the Plastic Cup Boys. This is Kevin Hart's

real-life crew, and they are starting at a new show on the Motor Trend app called Kevin Hart's muscle car crew. We played some fun jackbox games and talked about cars, which is amusing since I don't own a car, and nor have I ever driven a car. Some fun was had at my expense on that front, but Kevin Hart always amazing. So if you want to check that out, go to patreon.com slash happy say I'm confused that episode of Game Night, as all the others are always available once you sign up. So check it out. All right, let's get to the main event. This is Matt Damon and I.

Matt has just moved back to NYC. Thrilled for that, thrilled to have him back in the hood. And as I said, coming up a little bit later after the Matt Damon conversation, I'll toss back to our second conversation of the day with Zoe Lister Jones. All right, here it is me and Mr. Matt. I feel your presence in the New York. I'm in Brooklyn. I'm in Brooklyn. Yeah, I feel your force, too.

You're within. I can look down. I see Midtown out there here. There you go. This has been a long time coming. I've wanted to have you on the podcast forever. Of course, we've talked at Junkets and all those kinds of things. But I appreciate you taking the time out for this one.

And we chose the right one, I think. Tom McCarthy's a special filmmaker. Congratulations in Stillwater, man. Thank you, man. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really happy with it. So, first of all, this made its debut in Cannes. I'm always, I'm endlessly fascinated by the phenomenon of the lengthy standing ovation when it,

when it happens in Cannes. And you guys were privileged enough to get one. At what point does the standing O get awkward after, it feels like five minutes is an eternity. Five minutes may not sound like much to somebody, but that's a long time to stand on your feet while people are clapping. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, yeah, it's very strange. and it's awkward immediately. There's nothing not awkward about it.

Adam Driver, actually, he crushed it this year. Apparently, he lit a cigarette in the middle of the banning away. And he doesn't smoke, but it was like he just had to, he just wanted to do something. You know, I thought that was really funny. I read it, but I haven't talked to him about it yet. But anyway, yeah, it's very odd. but this year I was I was

really you know kind of oddly emotional like it just snuck up on me that moment of just being back in the movie theater again yeah just felt so great to be with everyone and and you know

and maybe I'm just getting old I said that to Tom McCarthy I was like I think I'm getting old because I'm really emotional right now no I mean we've all been we were all suffering from PTSD from the last year and a half I mean I found myself getting emotional when I was in the theater for Fast 9 so something is wrong with you.

Listen, that's a tearjerker. Obviously. But obviously, I've read off about it. When they go into space, water works, man. It's amazing. Did they go into space in Fast 9? Oh, no, I ruined it for you. I'm so sorry.

You didn't ruin it for me. I just got to see the other eight. Exactly. I knew this about your career, but like when I was prepping for this, I was reminded of the fact that To look at your filmography is to look at the history of, like, great filmmakers of the last 25 years. It's kind of insane.

I want to get to that in a second, but let's start with, like, for me, it's a no-brainer that you end up working with Tom McCarthy. So Tom is a fantastic filmmaker. People know him from work as diverse as, you know, the station agent to spotlight. From what I gather, he's been trying to get you in his orbit for a while. What happened? Did Dinklage beat you out for station? agent, what went down? I wish I was in station agent.

I mean, that was when I first became aware of Tom, like, you know, and that's interesting you bring up Peter, like, the acting in Tom's movies is always great, you know? And I mean, look, that has a lot to do with the writing and the directing. I mean, he's putting his actors in a position to do good work. But, I mean, it's uniformly great, you know. I mean, you know, Peter, Canavalli, Jenkins, like, all these guys, you know, are just awesome all the time.

And, and I, and yeah, I'd been looking for, you know, I, I almost did spotlight, but it conflicted with The Martian. So I, you know, it was like I had to choose between a kind of a headlining role and an ensemble role, and they were both great. Right. And I don't like normally saying about, you know, things that, look, a lot of the movies I've done were things that other actors couldn't do. I would like I like you're very rarely the first choice for something and I don't like saying that about smile just because ruffalo crushed it and ruffalo I think he got nominated for an Oscar and like it's like an amazing performance so yeah I always feel like the right actor gets the job you know what I mean like I looked at spotlight and I was like well thank God you know because mark killed it um I had that happen with milk um years ago um I you know Gus offered me the part of Dan white that Josh

Roland also got nominated for and Josh is and I literally I had to I was in the movie I was doing the research I was reading I was watching these documentaries and and I kind of doing my deep dive on Dan White and and Sean Penn had a had a conflict I can't remember what it was but he had to push the movie six months and because because it pushed from the fall to the spring I suddenly couldn't do it because I already had another job and so I had to give it up and you know it wasn't a big part. It was a supporting role, but I love that script so much,

and I love Gus, obviously. And so it was a hard one to pass up. But then I saw the movie, and I saw up rolling, and I was like, man, this happened for a reason. Like, this guy's amazing. So anyway, I was going to say, does it ever happen where, like, there are some other famous ones

and you've talked in recent years about, like, Avatar, and I remember, I think we talked briefly at one point about Dark Night, like when those ginormous cultural phenomenon films come out do you have a tough time seeing them like is it we do you have a tough time watching avatar or dark night knowing like oh wait I could have been part of that well dark night was a small role that I was offered like it was a you know it wasn't it wasn't one I mean it obviously wasn't heather Christian's part right

um that was the Harvey Dent role wasn't it was the yeah yeah yeah so and so and so like sometimes you look at a role and you're like it's good. It's a good role in a great movie. I mean, I subsequently did a small role in one of Chris's movies. Sure. Right? And interstellar. Like I wanted to be on, you know, part of that troop. He works with the same actors over and over and they're terrific. And, you know, I wanted to jump on that, on that ride. But there was some other big movie I was still, like some big part that I was doing where I was like, well, I can't play, you know, Harvey Dent, you know what I mean? It's like this is, this is, it's a relatively small role and I'm, I'm headlining this other thing.

So anyway, sometimes those, but I think you got to kind of just be sanguine about it and go like it, it all works out. Like, I mean, at this point, I passed on the biggest payday in the history of, right? I mean, accidentally, but like, so I can never do worse financially. I can never commit a worse financial, like, you know, error. Don't doubt yourself. I believe in you. You could fuck up even more in the future. I might be able, maybe I'll figure out some way there'll be some screaming thing that I

could have, you know, owned part of the company or something, you know, and it turns into the next Facebook. But anyway, you know, so, but I'm not, you know, I really do believe the actor gets the part that they're meant to get. And who knows, like, you know, had I done Avatar, would I have, would I have written the last duel? Would I have, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you know,

when Ben and I got really close on Dead Poets Society, not really close, we got called back. That script, well, I mean, I was, I don't know, I was 18 years old and I read this thing, and I was like, that's, it's the best script, Robin Williams was the star, I was like, you gotta be kidding me, this is amazing. And it was an open casting for

kids to play these prep school kids. And Ben and I were, I mean, you talk about like lit up for something, like this was it for us. I mean, it was an unbelievable opportunity. And I would still say it was. I mean, you look at the careers that came out of that, Ethan Hawke, Robert Sean Leder, and I mean, amazing actors, right? So those guys beat us out. And Ben and I ended up that summer working at a movie theater in Cambridge in Harvard Square.

at the Janus movie theater. And the Janus played one movie all fucking summer. And it was Dead Poet Society. And we had to tear tickets and serve popcorn and soft drinks to, and sweep up after every show. And we would watch Pact House after Pact House coming out, wiping tears off their face. And we were like, fuck, that could have been us.

You know what I mean? That should have been us. That was us. You know what I mean? We didn't get it. And I think there's a Garth Brooks song. is there somebody where he talks about, I thank God for my unanswered prayers.

Right. Right? Because we wouldn't have written goodwill hunting. Like we ended up writing out of necessity, goodwill hunting, and guess what? Robin Williams was in it. There was a better plan.

You just weren't in control of it necessarily. We just controlled. So you never know. I mean, life is crazy. And, you know, you just got to keep trying to do good work. And, you know, I mean, And had I done Avatar, it's like my favorite John Krasinski's story. Like when we were writing Promise Land together, and I told John that I passed on 10% of Avatar,

John jumped up and he starts walking around the kitchen. And he's like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Because nothing in your life would be different. Nothing, Matt, nothing in your life would be different if you had done Avatar, except you and I would be having this conversation in space. like you're right i would have bought a with richard franz and chef bezos yeah exactly that's it and then and then the guys who actually have that money actually launched themselves in giant space penises like space rockets

penis rockets and fucking go to space it's like you can't write this shit no you can't so coming full circle yes um tom McCarthy uh came back to you thankfully with the right role and the right project um this is a fascinating one it It makes sense in Tom's work if you look at it because it kind of combines the different elements he's done. It's like it completes his like displaced men box set, which I feel like is like the visitor and station agent. But it also has this like amazing kind of procedural thriller kind of aspect of spotlight. And I think that's what makes it work and what makes it endlessly fascinating is it kind of keeps kind of, I don't know, just like it keeps you on your toes. But I would also imagine that's the fear.

it's like, can we blend all this together? Is this character study and this thriller all going to blend together? Did you have concerns as a writer, as a creator, going in that this was all going to kind of gel? I mean, if you're really literal about things and you need to put it in a genre, I mean, and I think in America, that's definitely more the case with critics. Like, they need to, I know, what is this? What are you showing me right now? You know what I mean?

What's the comp? Give me. It's like they think the way studios think, right? Like, and that's kind of the way we talk about the film business in this country. But for me, it's like, all right, it's about this character. Are you going to go on the ride with him? If you buy what I'm doing, then just get on the bus and go. And the movie takes you to really surprising places.

And, and, and, and, like, yeah, I mean, you just, you can't predict, like Tom said to me where you're making it, like, I defy you moviegoer to tell me where this movie is going to take you, like, you know, when you sit down. Because you, because it does sit, it does look like a very pat, you know, it does look like a, like a movie we've seen before with the setup, right? You, it goes, well, okay, this movie's telling me a really traditional thing that American movies tell me, like, I'm about to sit down for an awesome Liam Neeson movie. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, and it's going to kick ass and take names.

Yeah, or get some important for that matter. Same kind of, like, like those characters, it's like, you know, they have a particular set of skills, you know what I mean? And they're going to, and this guy doesn't have any of that. He doesn't speak the language. He doesn't understand the culture that he's trying to navigate. He doesn't know what's going on. He's lost.

He doesn't know what's going on for most of the movie. He doesn't understand what's happening around him. And that's a. that's a very human story with a very traditional setup, right? And so that throw, I think that's going to throw people. It's thrown some people, you know, because they go, they go, well, you can't do this. And it's like, well, no, we're, we're taking this setup and we're, but we're playing it real. We're playing it.

These are, these are real people. This is a guy who's carrying a lot of pain and grief and, and, and regret and shame, you know, about. his own failures as a man and as a father. And he's trying to repair the damage that he's done with his daughter. And he's still making mistakes. And like, that's the movie. It's a drama, not a thriller. No, I mean, the thriller version of this.

Like, I mean, I love, like, the risks and, like, the, that Tom and you take in that, like, you kind of skip, like, the first act that would be in another thrill. Like, the conventional version of this is, like, the first scene in the fugitive where, like, the murder happens and then you're trying to figure it out. But in this, you don't even know that a murder is taking place for 20 minutes. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, you pick it up midstream. Like you, like, when that was so, when people like talk about the Amanda Knox story, which, you know, this is like loosely kind of used off, used as a jumping point kind of, like jumping off point.

Like, because what Tom was interested in was like, what happens to that family like five years later? Yeah. Like when everyone, all the camera, all the sensationalism, everything's gone away, like, how do those people live their lives? And what if one of them was a roughneck from Oklahoma from like this really specific place and was this really specific thing? Like what, you know, and he had to interact with that world. Like what does that life look like? And so that's what you're right. Like the movies, the first act kind of, you know, you feel almost like you're starting in the second act because they're in the middle of trying to live through this thing with the consequences of the choices that they've made.

I asked for some questions from the listeners. So this one is from Magali, who gets at some of what we've been talking about. She wanted to know if you've ever experienced the situation of being a stranger and having to deal with cultural differences. And what would you say about being an American in Marseille? You shot a lot of this in Marseille, of course. Yeah, I mean, constantly, it's actually, like, it's actually become a comfortable place for me to be.

I've worked so many times in so many different countries, you know. And there's always that moment where you show up with your suitcase and you don't speak the language and you don't know the city and you're, you know, and you got to figure it out. And, you know, it's crazy. I didn't go to Europe until I was 26 when I went to shoot Saving Private Ryan was the first time I got off of this continent and went over there. And subsequently, I have traveled so much. Like that's, it's like I kind of chuckled when I got that question. because that's happened to me so many times. But I would just say to anybody who gets the chance to travel to I have a friend who recently told me, which I thought was a great line. He goes, I just say yes.

He goes, just to life. He goes, because you know what happens when you say no. You stay in your house. And, and, and when you say yes, something's going to happen. And I thought that was such a great, like something's going to happen. And if you can, if you can get your way over there, you know, something's, going to, something's going to happen and it might just be great. So I started this by mentioning how my theory is that your career is kind of like the

unofficial history of like great filmmakers of the last 25 years. Indulge me for a second. I'm going to read the list. This is the partial list of filmmakers. For those that don't like can't wrap their brains around, it's kind of startling just to hear them listed. In no particular order, James Mangold, Stephen Soderberg, Alexander Payne, Terry Gilliam, Ridley Scott, Christopher Nolan, Cameron, Cameron Crow, Kenny Lonergan, the Cohn brothers,

Clint Eastwood, Martin Scorsese, Gustavent, Robert Redford, Anthony Miguel, Paul Greengrass, Francis Ford Coppola. Many of those you've worked with several times, by the way. It's, I mean, it's a startling list. And I guess the general question is how much of it was a strategy and how much of it was happenstance, like you're a smart guy, you had opportunity. I'm going to go towards the icons when I can, when I have the opportunity, and how much of it was just sort of like riding the wave. Well, it's both things. I mean, I, you know, I had the opportunity and I took it, but I definitely, if I had any

strategy at all, it was aligning myself with great filmmakers. And, you know, but look, I had to pass on a lot of great filmmakers in that time, too. And it's also like, you know, it had to, it had to work out, you know, with my life. But I always, I always aired on the side. of, um, of, you know, somebody, somebody whose movies I loved, um, because I figured, you know, is like, I was going to get something out of that, um, experience, you know, and, and, and on balance, if you work with great filmmakers, the director's medium, as you know, obviously, so, on balance, if you align yourself with great directors, you're going to make good movies

more often than not. And in some of the movies I made didn't work, but, um, but I always got a lot out of the experience. And that was the other thing. Like, it's not, you know, I do know actors who kind of approach with the strategy of, oh, I'm going to do a big one now. And if you end up in a movie that is quote unquote big, like nobody knows what movies is big. Like, you don't know if the movie's going to, if like, if you could predict what movies were big,

then everybody would be an A-list movie star. Like, you have to go, you have to know why you're there. And it's such a time and labor-intensive business. I can't imagine working on something that I didn't love, like, and believe in. Like that, it just, you're still there for 15 hours every day. Like, I actually, I had a movie where, which I won't name, where I figured out probably one month in to a five-month job that it wasn't going to work. Right. And, and the depression that I went into, you know, but I really came away.

from that experience and I and my wife said to me like go do do your job and it was like it like released me I went yeah you're right the definition of a professional actor is somebody who knows they're in a turkey and shows up and goes 16 hours strong and with a positive attitude and lifts the people up around them and it's like I am going to I'm going to be the band playing on the fucking Titanic and we're going to play and I'm going to and smile the whole time. Like, this is it. This is what I do. Like, you want to see me? Like, it was like a challenge. I was like, okay, let's go, you know, and, and, and, and I learned a lot from that, you know, I didn't, it wasn't just a, just a horrible kind of slog, like self,

life defeating slog. I, I took away a lot of good lessons from that. There's always a lesson, you know. I feel like there could be 16 different books and practically there have already in different forms of like the making of goodwill hunting but i'm always endlessly fascinated by the different versions that there were and the different filmmakers that almost came to directed i heard you i think on marron the other day talking about how like michael man was like screen testing you guys or going through auditions like i can't think of a more different filmmaker than from gust van san to michael man the michael man version what is the michael man version of goodwill hunting what would that have been i don't know he i remember he showed us clips of

Mexican gangs. And he was like, this is your movie. This is the movie you got to make. I was like, what? These dudes have neck tats and they're Mexican. Like, that's not at all what South Boston is, man. I like, I didn't understand. And he, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think he wanted to take it like in a really dark, like, you know, like these dudes are like whacking people in the street. And I'm like, yeah, we're not doing the whitey bulger thing. Like, we're like, kids from that neighborhood, but, you know, uh, anyway, but, uh, I just, that was, that's funny. I haven't thought about that in a long time, but I, but I do remember him showing like to Ben and to me and we're sitting there and he walked out of the room and we looked at each other like,

the fuck is going on. Like he's the right, we wrote it. Like, you that's our movie. Okay, so you're telling us that's our movie. Like, you know, but he just, but look, I mean, every director comes at it with from their own, you know, the director, past it, it is a director's medium, like I said. So, like, when we, when thank God, Gus finally, well, thank God Harvey finally gave the job to Gus. We had wanted Gus the whole time, but we had an almost ceremonial moment where we, like, gave him the script, and we're like, this is yours, man. This is not our movie anymore. I mean, a screenplay is like, it's like an art.

architectural blueprint for a house, right? It's what you think the houses should look like. And then you gotta build the house. And that's what the director does. And so we had to give it up to him, you know, and he made choices that we wouldn't have made. And thank God he did, he made great choices. He thought of things that we never would have thought of.

I mean, that's Goodwill Hunting's a Gus Van Sant movie, you know, that we wrote. But that's what it is. Do you remember, Ben recently recalled your audition for the Robin role in the Tim Burton Batman that obviously never came to beat. They never actually had Robin in his two films. Do you remember, what's your version of that story? Do you remember that?

Okay, so that, well, there's two, there's two stories there. There's the Robin Roll we went down to New York, and that's in like 1986. I don't really remember that audition. I was 1987 maybe 88 87 88 I would have been like 16 or 17 and and I don't remember I remember that we didn't have sides for the for the there wasn't like you're reading a scene with Batman it was like it was so secretive that it was like you're reading this other scene right from some other movie you know and it's like I never got the point of that but there were some movies that did that back then I mean I remember auditioning for him then consequent to that in 93, I got screen tested. I was one of the final three to play Robin in the George Clooney and the Joel Schumacher Batman. And I flew out and I remember I knew Joel, I had met Joel,

and I had worked with Duval at that point because I remember talking to him extensively about Duval because he had done falling down with Duval. And I'm, you know, a big Duval guy, Duval and Hackman. Of course, yeah. And I had just done a movie with both of those guys, this movie, Geronimo. And so Joel and I talked about that. But I remember I tried to, Chris was, Chris O'Donnell already had the part. And, uh, but they were haggling over money. And so they,

they, you know, the studio was flexing basically by flying into other people to screen test, but they wanted Chris, but they just wanted him for a price. And I remember, and I knew Chris. And I remember calling it. I was like, I'll work for a quarter of what that dude's working with. I was like, I want the job. Yeah, I flew in and audition for Joel, but I think they always intended the, I remember seeing Chris while he was making that. We were friends back then, and they always intended to give it to Chris. And there were things, I remember like at that stage in my career, you know, you would go in and read even if you knew you weren't going to get the part. In fact, the Rainmaker, the movie that I did with Coppola, Patrick called me.

Patrick Weitzel's been my agent for, I don't know, 30 years now. And Patrick called me and he goes, we'd been tracking this thing because the John Grisham movies were very popular movies, right? They were big, but Francis doing a John Grisham movie was like, oh, yeah, it's like the great, you know, it's like the godfather is coming to John Grisham land. Like, you know, and the godfather was a pulp novel and, you know, and Francis talked about that a lot. Like, so we were tracking that. I had read the book. I was like, what is going on? I know they're making it.

I know they're making it. And Patrick was trying to track it. And he called me out of the blue. I was living in Somerville, Massachusetts, because we thought Goodwill Hunting was going to go that year. It ended up going the next year. And Ben and I were living up there with Casey. And I got a phone call.

And Patrick said, all right, he goes, I'm telling you right now, you have a 5% chance at best. of getting this movie. He goes, here's what's going on. They're screen testing in Memphis. They've got three girls that they're screen testing, right? And they only have two guys. If you go to the airport right now and get on a plane and fly to Memphis,

you're going to be the third guy. But I'm telling you right now, you have almost no chance. You're just like, you're just, you're like filling in. And I'm like, great, just put me in. Like, get me on the field. right yeah yeah and so i went and i flew down there and i knew so it was it was it was edward norton balthazar getty and me and uh i didn't see balthasar getty on that trip but i said but edward had beaten everybody out in l.a for primal fear sure and uh edward was you know

i mean he was getting everything he was the hot shit in town then yeah he was and deservedly so and still one of my favorite actors and he was a guy who at that age like i you know you got to kind a wolf out at that stage of your career and feel like you're the best thing in the room. But it's like, it's like Charles Barkley once told me when he went to play in this like all-American thing when he was in college, his coach told him, Charles, you go up there, you show them, you know, you're, that Alabama, you represent Alabama, you show him, you're the best. And Charles got back, he goes, yeah, he goes, you show him, Charles. He goes, yeah, well, there's a dude from North Carolina pretty good.

He played with Jordan, you know. And that's how I felt about Edward. I just, I was like, look, man, I, you know. I believe in myself, but I just saw something pretty good across the time. I saw something pretty good. That dude's good. And so Edward was there. And I was like, oh, shit, I'm going up against Edward Norton.

He's already Edward Norton. Yeah. Right? He's already, like, I think he'd been nominated for an Academy Award at that point. Yeah. Fuck, man. Well, well, this shit just got real. And I think because they paired me with Claire Daines.

and the combo that worked you guys i really think she got me the part i really think she that you know because she was so fucking good i think she got me the part and and and uh and uh that was you know that was a huge and because i that because i got that movie miramax greenlit goodwill hunting right because they were they were like you know yeah you know i remember i faxed harby Weinstein i was like i'm the rainmaker and he was like what does that mean and i was like I got the Coppola movie. And he goes, Copeland.

He said the Grisham movie. And I'm like, the fucking Coppola movie. He goes, oh, the Grisham movie. He goes, all those things make $100 million. Yeah. And so they suddenly, $100 million. Yeah, exactly. Right.

So we got fast tracked because, and if you ever look at the way they opened it, the Rainmaker in 97 came out in like November. Goodwill Hunting started platforming in like early December. Like they were piggybacking. They were trying to draft off. that they didn't need to it turned out because there was this movie called titanic and everybody went to the movie so goodwill hunting ended up really drafting off of titanic right titanic was the number one movie for like 10 weeks or something yeah but well hunting was the number two movie like we just

stood in their slip stream yeah because when people couldn't get in you know you know could people were just lined up around the block trying to get into titanic show after show and if they couldn't get in they'd be like oh we'll go see that one and so we did we did a we did a lot like that Titanic lifted up everybody who was in the theaters at that time like it just was everybody was going to the movies I know I need to let you go in a second I do want to just hit really quickly on last duel um the trailer looks fucking awesome I'm so I could not be more psyched for this man this is obviously you and Ridley uh reteaming after the Martian but as people know first screenplay that you and Ben have collaborated on and you have Nicole Hollif Center also writing this which is

fascinating and just to mention it one one other great aspect as Jody Comer, who I'm an insane fan of. They're going to be a bigger fan of Jody's after you see this movie. Oh, I'm incredible. I'm obsessed with her already, yes. I walked away from that experience. There's a certain level of gratitude you feel as a writer when actors make your stuff better.

And I walked away from Adam and Jody from that experience just going, I can't, you know, I literally can't thank you enough. Like, they are remarkable actors. And those roles were difficult, and they are great. And so we saw it, just to give you a background, we saw it, you can't tell from the trailer, but you'll see in the movie, you know, we saw it as a story of these three different perspectives, right?

And how we look at things based on how we're acculturated to, you know, take in life. And so Ben and I wrote the male, perspectives and Nicole wrote the female perspective. And Jody is just, I just can't say enough about her. I mean, she's just awesome in this movie. And, and I, you know, I'm really proud of it. You know, we'll see. It's still got to come out. And, you know, nobody's, nobody's seen it yet. But like, we've seen it. And I'm like, that's pretty good. Now, Ben, Ben initially was going to do the Adam role. I know he took a supporting role in this.

I guess my question is, is there a meaty heat diner scene between you? two guys. Do we get a little of Matt and Ben moment in this film? Well, I will say, I think it's, it might be, Ben's a supporting role, but it might be the best thing he's ever done. He's incredible in this movie. He's really great. But, and I won't give too much away, Ben, historically speaking, anybody who reads this, this book that it's based on and reads this history, Pierre de Alanson, the guy who Ben plays, did not like my, my character at all. And in fact, my guy survived 600 years later as he's remembered as jealous and irascible. And, you know, he's, you imagine, like, what kind of guy you'd have to be

to have that, to be remembered that way six centuries later. So, you know, impression. Yeah, we made quite an impression. So we, so that, that, we thought about that as we were writing him, definitely. Amazing. Amazing. I can't wait to have a longer conversation with You and Ben and Jody and the whole team on that one. I'm very psyched for it. Congratulations, man, on this one. You and Tom McCarthy. It took a while, but I'm glad you got there.

Everybody should check out Stillwater. It's a fantastic piece of work. And I'm glad we have you back home here in New York where you belong. You bet, man. I'll see you around. We are off to the races with the only bigger fan than Timothy Shalamee than I, lovely, the talented. Zoe Lister Jones.

Hi, Zoe. Hi. How are you? I'm doing all right. It's so good to see a familiar face. I feel like we've run into each other in bizarre, random, interesting places over the years. And now it's a Zoom box. And now it's a Zoom box. Yeah. It's almost Main Street and Park City. Exactly. Exactly. So I alluded to the important part, Timmy Chalomey. I think he doesn't get, I watched your movie a while back, but I'm trying to remember. I feel like he got a name check. He definitely gets a shout out. I would say he does get a shout out in. most of my work and also in most of my press. I hope that he is. Have you got in the Instagram follow? Are you getting any closer to real life friendship with Timmy? No, Lil Timmy follows capital Z zero. Oh, is that true? On Instagram. Yeah. So I don't feel burned. I think that's intentionally. I think that's why he did it just so that he could sort of level the playing field. there's nobody left out um no i'm not i'm i'm i'm not closer and i think the more that i um sort of like proclaim my uh desire for him the further i'm getting away um you know it's a long

life josh yeah we don't know we don't know we don't know do dune may bomb and he might need all the friends he can get we don't know how to pan out dune is not going to bomb no it's not it's not It looks so fucking good and he's so good. But yeah, I mean, I have faith in us. I might be able to help you guys because I know him a bit to the point where I didn't know he doesn't follow anybody on Instagram, but I have made it. You know how like when someone accepts like those messages to you, even if they're not following you, you're in the good comments?

I have DM'd with him because once I was at an awards thing, I literally, he literally left his credit card at the table I was sitting at with him. He DMed me for the credit card. and now we got the link. We're in. So you're going to slide into the DMs for me. That's the saddest thing ever. No, it's not.

It's happy and confused. It might not be sad. And so, yeah, so I'm so into this new dynamic where you are podcasters slash pimp. Well, I started my career as a pimp, and now I've come full circle. Right, now it's a return to form. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Let's put the good word out on your wonderful. new film, a delightful apocalyptic comedy. An apocomody. It's a narrow genre, but you're nailing it. You're in the top tier. How It Ends is the film. And this is one of the few happy things that we can point at and say,

oh, look, something good came out of the madness of the last 18 months. Oh, thanks, man. So was there any charm of this that existed in any form before 2020? like did you draw on any ideas or was this just like I need to make something let's start from scratch what am I thinking what am I feeling um no I mean darrell wine and I conceived of it pretty early on in quarantine so we weren't it wasn't like an idea that was rattling around um pre lockdown but um I would say like on a more macro and spiritual tip these ideas have been rattling around for a long time um you know this sort of

concept of the inner child, I think, is something that my therapist's been hot on for a minute with me. So I think like, you know, that came into much sharper focus, as did so many things when we were trapped with only ourselves. And I think I have always relied on my work as like, for better or for worse, one of the only ways I know how to process. these deeply existential questions. So, yeah, it felt just like very necessary, even though it was also super terrifying to take on an independent film

at the height of a global pandemic. And one that was really, like, teensy. I mean, we were really, like, returning. As you are about to return to your Pimp Roots, I, you know, was really returning to my, like, guerrilla filmmaking route. So we had, like, a crew of four people. And so to do.

Seven days, right? Like, I mean, and ironic in that, it goes right from your biggest work. You obviously were coming off and directing the craft and you're like two ends of the Zoilister Jones spectrum. So what was that week like when you're in production where it's just sort of like all hands on deck and all it's all four hands on deck? Is it? Well, we had, I mean, we shot, I think, over the course of more like three weeks, but it was sporadical. based on people's schedules. So that was actually quite nice

to be able to shoot something, watch it, see what else we needed, and then go in with, with, I think, a little more acuity when we were then returning to set, which was mostly just people's backyards. But, yeah, it was a really nice shift to go from the craft to how it ends.

I think it was obviously such an incredible opportunity to be working on a studio film in that capacity as a writer and director, MEP. But there's something about distilling the experience to just its like sort of purest elements and having so few other voices to contend with and to just like, I think the immediacy of that experience is so important to like return to to remind yourself of like yeah just like the beauty of the

like you know this sounds sort of trite and corny but like the beauty of the process yeah um over the product or you know the commercialization of the product or any of those those voices that can come into play like this um journey of how it ends was so condemned It was like, we wrote it, we shot it, we edited it, we permitted it, sundance. It was all so fast and it was so nice to not like, overthink and to just like, you know, sort of, yeah, I guess use it as a tool for catharsis. It also feels like, I mean, obviously you're calling in a lot of friends and favors to do the, I mean, it's kind of an amazing cast and insane cast. Yeah, it's insane. It really kind of permeates, and it's kind of strange to talk about this.

like as it is a film about the end of the world. But it kind of permeates with a lot of joy, I feel. And I have a feeling a lot of that came from the circumstances where it must have been like, oh, wait, I can get out of the house and see people I love and create and create art and act. Because, like, I know for me, like, I was looking for any outlet I could. We all were. Yeah.

So was it kind of an odd juxtaposition of like shooting and producing this in the worst of time? but also kind of allowing yourself a little joy of getting back to what you do what you do. Yeah, totally. It was a really wild dichotomy of like waking up every morning cursing myself for deciding to do this because I was already so like drowning in anxiety as we all were. And then to add the anxiety of writing, directing, producing story in a film was like, you know, pretty masochistic in some ways.

But then at the end of every day, I was so nourished and I was so grateful that I had this outlet and so grateful, like you said, to be sitting across from people that I know and love and to like, I guess, engender a sense of play amidst this really harrowing and uncertain time. I think for everyone, like, you know, the cast is, is, bonkers and I'm like so so lucky that that my friends were down to um to do this but for i would say everyone was their first time on camera since lockdown and i think even though um the cast is made up of like such heavyweights there was still like fear on all of our parts like can we show up and be funny and can we find that sense of play because it just felt so fucking bleak you know um

And I think to show ourselves that we could and to do so in a way that didn't deny what we were all feeling because of like, I think Daryl and I wanted to create a narrative that wasn't like based in the pandemic, but could be, you know, like contending with a similar emotional landscape so that whatever we were feeling on any given day, we could put into those scenes and we could put into our characters and it could still feel authentic to the, you know, surreal. new normal that we were living in you mentioned and i don't know if your therapist gets the thanks and the credits maybe they should but yes i mean oh my gosh i'm going to know the dvd but i mean it is kind of for those that don't know like the plot a little bit it's kind of like a it's almost like a buddy comedy where the buddies are the same person you and your younger self got um meandering the streets of los angeles cayley spani who also started in the craft for you what wonderful in this So that's just an interesting starting point. Like talk to me a little bit through like writing that and it's obviously you're not writing yourself, but it's an aspect of yourself, I'm sure, and confronting a different version, a younger version of yourself.

Yeah. That's something I haven't really seen much in a film. It's a really clever idea. Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, Kaylee and I, as you mentioned, met on the craft and became very close in that experience. And in that film, she was playing a version of my adolescent self. So we had done a lot of work on that already and sort of where our adolescent souls intersected, even though we come from very different places. And then when lockdown hit, she was in L.A. And we were spending a lot of time on socially distanced walks, really leaning on each other because I think we were,

like everyone, you know, was just battling such intense depression and anxiety. And so much of that is about like learning how to talk to the inner child, you know, and like these most vulnerable selves that we sort of tend to ignore amidst the hustle of regular life. And my therapist who doesn't get a thanks in the, man. Oh, God. It's more to sort through

in the next therapy session. Yeah, and so that's the next movie. The next movie is a buddy comedy between me and my therapist, just not thanks in the film, sort of a being John Malkovich-esque meta comedy. No, so yeah, like she was always like trying to get me to learn how to talk

to my younger self. Because I think we all do have this like person, so to speak, wherever our like our development was arrested because of whatever traumas we've experienced as children. And those children need so much healing. And it's like our job to reparent them now as we are grown-ass people. But like how the fuck do you do that?

And so I never understood it. And I think because all of that stuff was coming up, you know, in such a different way and in such a more overwhelming way in lockdown. I thought, like, well, maybe I could do that. Maybe I could figure out how to do that in an actual dialogue with an actual other person. And Kaylee was doing, you know, similar work. And I was, I sent her this book called The Drama of the Gifted Child that, like, my mom sent to me, L.O.L. That is about, like, the reparenting process of that younger self.

So it was really, like, incredibly cathartic to write the scenes between Kaylee and I because it was, like, therapy, homework, but also. through the lens of comedy, which is something that I think is, I don't know, opens up some different like pathways in terms of how to deal with these things that can feel really heavy and like, um, and darker than we might want to, you know, dive into. It's like, it's still white. And I, this is a, this is an exclusive for you that I have never seen Schindler's list. And as one of the foremost Jewish actresses of my generation, My gosh, you're excommunicated. But it's one of, I know.

And it's one of those things where it's like, but when's the right day, you know? When's a three and a half hour black and white film about those arqueous days of humanity? Yeah, it's the day. And it feels, and like inner child work sort of that thing where it's like, but when's, when is really the moment where you're like, now's the day? I really feel like digging in. Right. So this was sort of like, yeah. Well, I could do it if I.

I, if I put it into a narrative where I could also have a little fun. Speaking of darkness and a little fun, you're working with maybe my favorite filmmaker that's, that has a budding career. Ari Aster is the real deal. And I've listened to your interview with him and it's like one of my favorites. It's amazing. He's remarkable. I'm sure you can't say much, but Say what you can just about, have you started work with him yet? What's the script like? No, I leave next week for Montreal to start.

I don't think I'm allowed to say much of anything. I know that he has publicly described it as a nightmare comedy. And that is, I think, pretty true to form. And I think, like, the only thing I would say is, you know, I know you guys talked about the Coen Brothers on your on your podcast and not of course the Coen brothers are like a seminal filmmaking duo for me also as a filmmaker and anxious Jew but I would I I yeah I it does feel like there's like there is some some Coen brothers infusion in this one in in the best possible way right well disappointment Boulevard sounds like the name could be a name of his own brother's movie Let's be honest. Yeah, totally, totally. Or any Jews' autobiography, perhaps.

Yeah. Yeah. I did say to Ari, this is one of the most Jewish films I've ever read. I love it. A double bill with a serious man. I'm in. Let's do this. And I did mention a serious man.

I was like, this is definitely like a sibling. I love it. Well, that's all I need to be here. Yeah, I'm so thrilled. And I think he's one of the most exciting filmmakers. Yeah. working and it's just such a dream to I'm just like on so many levels but just to get to watch and work I'm like it's going to be a masterclass so where are you at with your own filmmaking

obviously this was a nice kind of like bonus project that kind of came out of circumstance yeah like I said you came off of your biggest film in some respects the craft yeah what's your appetite or inclination right now in terms of what you want to pursue what you want to devote your time to as a filmmaker. Well, I am interested in the world of television because I haven't played there yet. And I feel like it's a really interesting medium to explore storytelling.

You have so much more time to do so. So I'm developing a couple things in that world. And then I'm writing a new movie. that I'm also really excited about that yeah I can't speak too much about but I guess like I think what how it ends really taught me was like to really focus on making what I want to make and Ari Aster is also a really good a really good mentor in that way he would never call himself a mentor to me, but I would say that he's a mentor to me. Um, that, you know, like, he, he's like, all of his films are like these incredible fuck yous of just like, I'm going to make whatever the fuck I want.

And, um, and so, yeah, I would say, um, it's always, it's always an interesting thing. Like, you know, now I've, I've directed, um, three films. So like, it's an interesting thing to, to try to quiet those voices of like how what elevates or what's how do you level off what you're supposed to do yeah yeah what are you supposed to do and to just kind of be like what's the story that I am desperate to tell and then like let's go from there yeah and there there's some examples where there's ari aster or whatever like those filmmakers that kind of like work on their own terms and if the budget is three million or it's 10 million or 7 million or a TV series?

Like, who the fuck cares? Like, who are we trying to impress? Like, make what's true to yourself. I mean, who are we trying to impress? I would say, yeah, myself and Timothy Shalmy. She knows how to bring it full circle. Well, it's a beautiful day in New York. I know you have a lot on your plate.

You have to go watch Timor's List for the first time. That's my afternoon is booked. Stay for the blooper reel. The bloopers at the end are hysterical. Everybody should check out how it ends. Like I said, I'm so thrilled for you. It's always a good excuse to catch up with you when you create something. And I'm so thrilled that out of this madness, you didn't learn to bake bread perhaps,

or maybe you did. I did not. I did not. I had no sourdough starters anywhere near my physical person. This is your metaphorical sourdough starter. It really is. Everybody should check it out. Zoe, it's always good to catch up.

Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits.

Fan favorites, musts season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do,

come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button. Thank you.