Happy Sad Confused - Matt & Ross Duffer

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

Ready to go inside the upside down? Josh welcomes Matt & Ross Duffer, aka the creators/writers/directors of the phenomenon that is STRANGER THINGS! SPOILER ALERT: this chat goes deep the many momentous events of STRANGER THINGS 4 and looks ahead to the final season! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy Say Confused, it's a Stranger Things spoiler spectacular with Matt and Ross Duffer. Hey guys, Josh Horowitz here with another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. And this is a fun one, guys. What's bigger in pop culture right now than Stranger Things? Come on. The new season has just dropped. The final two episodes of Stranger Things Four have just dropped.

By now, you've probably watched it. If not, you might want to take a pause and check out the finale, the last two episodes, before listening to this conversation. Because this is a special one. This is an exclusive. I don't think the Duffer brothers, generally they don't talk much. And I don't think they did much talking after this season. But they were kind enough to make the time.

for a big conversation with me here. This is their debut on Happy, Say I Confused. Matt and Ross Duffer, so what do you need to know about these guys? Essentially, they are the creative force behind Stranger Things. This is their baby. They are the creators, the executive producers, the writers. They direct most of the shows. They live and breed this show.

And their story is a fascinating one. These guys came out of North Carolina, had no connections to Hollywood, had no real significant credits prior to Stranger Things outside of a film that, frankly, nobody saw called Hidden, a TV series that some people saw that they were writers on, Wayward Pines from M. Night Shyamalan, and then out of nowhere comes this pop culture phenomenon with a mostly unknown cast, and yes, our beloved Winona Ryder, and the rest is history. So for context, I've never really talked to Matt. and Ross, though I'm big fans of the show and big fans of theirs, but I did run into them

when I was lucky enough to host the Stranger Things 4 premiere alongside my old buddy Terry Schwartz for Netflix. They were kind enough to invite me to do the big live stream on TikTok of all things. I feel like an old man being like, on TikTok I was hosting, but I was. And I met Matt and Ross. They came on stage, and that was literally our first meeting on this bizarre giant stage for the premiere. We talked a bit afterwards, and I found out they were very kind. I think it was Matt I was talking to. They're identical twins, by the way, so easy to mix them up.

But I believe it was Matt I was chatting with. Who's kind enough to say that they were fans of mine. They knew my stuff, and certainly I reciprocated the love. And since then, we made arrangements to catch up. So here we are. This is a big conversation. It's an hour-long chat. It is full of spoilers.

So again, if you haven't watched Stranger Things 4, take a pause, finish up, then come back. Because we directly address all the major events that happen in the latest season. There's a lot here about that. There's a lot also about looking forward to the final season of Stranger Things that, yes, there will be one more season. So we talk about that. We talk about their planned spinoff that they're going to be doing. We talk about their future beyond Stranger Things, their background, their influences, their love of Star Wars. There's so much in here.

So, yeah, this is a fun chat with two very talented guys who share much of my sensibilities, easy to talk to, common reference points, and a lot of fun. I should also mention, by the way, they have a new master class. I just watched the trailer. I haven't watched the whole thing yet. But if you're so inclined to learn the ins and outs of how to develop a TV show, why look any further than the Duffer Brothers? That's a new episode of the Masterclass series, which I'm a big fan of. So just a little plug there for them.

Yeah, not much else to mention, guys. I mean, this is, like I said, this is a longer one. This is an hour-long chat. So I want to get right to it. If you're here for a deep dive into everything and anything, stranger things you can't go wrong with this one if you want to watch the video version of this as always go to patreon.com slash happy sad confused we've got a new game night episode coming very soon with a whole batch of new folks to game night but i think you'll be very pleased um i know i was

that should be coming hopefully maybe by the end of this week if not the beginning of next um and yeah we've got a big a list superstar on the podcast next week we've got comic con around the corner lots of things happening um all right let's get right to it here i am with the creators the executive producers the writers directors they do it all um here's my chat with matt and ross this is a first for happy second fuse we've had family members on we've never had identical twins so you've broken ground already guys matt and ross stuffer welcome to the podcast guys thanks for having us yeah thank you for having us man yeah of course of course we we met uh very recently as most modern relationships begin on a ticot live stream that's just the way of the world

my first ticot live stream that's right me too we were all together was it yeah was it your first yeah yeah i don't even understand how it works i'm assuming people watch that i don't know so so i hear i think anything related to stranger things people watch no matter what the platform um but no i've been such fans of yours for a while, and I'm so excited that this is the occasion. So we are talking, and this is like a cathartic moment for me, I can only imagine it for you, because you probably, first of all, you guys just

finished this. This is the last two episodes of Strange Things 4. I got a chance to watch these the other day, and I had no one to talk to about it. I literally, to name drop, one of your friends, I literally texted Harbor, and I'm like,

I have to talk about this, so I started That's all that's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah, nobody has seen it. So few people. Our actors just saw it, just saw it. I'm sure David has just seen it when you talked to him because they just kept bugging it. It just literally wasn't done.

It wasn't right. That's why nobody has seen it. I mean, it just, I guess was it yesterday, right? That it became available. And then we changed some shots today. Yeah. Still a work in progress. It's still always a work in progress.

I think we're actually at the point where Netflix is going. pencils down. So pencils are down. Pinsels for Matt and I are down. There'll be a little tech fixes here and there, but it's, it's pretty much done. You'll be happy to know Harbor seems happy. Seems very happy. He did say to convey to you guys, he'd like more lines next season. I don't know if he said that's here. Yeah. Well, it'll be easier because you're not going to be imprisoned in the Senate for the majority of this season. Yeah. So we'll give him some more lines. Fair enough. I mean, look, he's an actor. He's an actor's actor. This is a, this is a common note, so yeah um all right so let's just talk i mean okay so this is a spoiler conversation by now if you

if you haven't watched the last of the two episodes guys um get with it get with the program and check it out um let's clear some things up okay so renner is dead i think yes yes for real this definitively he's dead toast okay we'll get get these out of the way and then we'll circle back Eddie Munson, officially dead? Yes. Sadly, yeah. Breaks my heart. What a performance from Joe Quinn.

Amazing. We can say Max is alive. Right. Yeah, she's brain dead, but she's alive. Could be better. Could be better. Brain dead and blind. And all of her bones broken.

But she's doing great, Josh. So, yeah, she's seen better days. That basically describes me most days. And Steve, despite the internet's predictions, seems pretty okay. Well, we beat them up like always. I mean, we have to beat Steve up every season. It's just become a thing now. I don't know where the Steve, I honestly don't know where the Steve death prediction came from.

Because I don't think we foreshadowed it in any way. Because it would have been kind of a bizarre thing to do because we hinted, you know, we kind of had the cliffhanger on episode six where you think he might. might die from the bats and he's rescued. So it would have been odd, I think, to, I guess we did that with Max. I think it goes back to the early trailer. There was a Steve screaming, you know, but again, that was all from episodes people have seen now, which by now they should have been like, yeah, we saw it.

So, yeah, he survived once. I think the internet, they like to get riled up about, they riled themselves up on purpose. So I don't know how many people really think he's going to die. Right. But they've threatened us and so on if he dies. That wouldn't stop us from killing Steve. we'll get we'll get to that on the next thing they're going to be unhappy enough about Eddie you know I mean for sure they're going to be unhappy well let's let's talk about narratively why it was time

for Brenner this time to go for good well what we really wanted to do this season you know and one why we really wanted to bring it back is we felt that 11 hadn't really ever come to terms with her relationship with him and what all that meant and you know we even in Season two, we talked about this sort of festering wound. And I think a lot with that 11 had, and a lot of that in our mind had to do with her relationship with Brenner, never actually dealing with and confronting it. And so I think, as you can see, especially in episode eight this year, she really, her and Brenner go at it. And she finally says everything that's on her mind. And Brenner, we wanted to also show that he's not just this black and white villain, that at least in his mind, obviously the things he's doing.

or unethical, but in his mind, he is a justification for it all. And so we wanted to give him an opportunity as a character to at least try to tell this 11 his justifications. And ultimately, she doesn't accept them, that she is conflicted and we see, you know, we see her emotional, but at the end of the day, you know, she's not going to forgive him. And once you've, I mean, she's been totally manipulated by him, you know, as a child, but his feelings for her are real, you know. And a lot of this actually came from, you know, our conversations with Matthew because I think

Ross and I weren't, you know, when we were working on season one, he was much more of a straight villain in our minds. But then it was so interesting that Matthew really bristled that if anyone, you know, there would be, you know, screenings where fans would boo him. And he actually felt like hurt by that because he did not, and that's any great actor, right? They're going to find a justification for everything. In his mind, everything he did was justified. I was like, well, that's actually really interesting to explore, like, Matthew, you know, how he got there in his own head. And I'm like, okay, this character really, no one's the villain of their own story, right? So he's in his mind, he's doing, he's doing, he's doing things for the right reason, even if he does some things that,

that, you know, cross moral or ethical lines. And then Millie has, Millie and Modena are also in real life close. And Millie has, and they're very close to their characters as well. And she's always had, you know, talked about 11 conflicted relationship with them. So it just felt like rich territory to explore. It must have been, this is a unique circumstance, because this is the first time you were literally editing the final two episodes while the fans were reacting to the first seven. That's right. And obviously, you can't go back. But like, when you see the reception to Joe's performance, and Eddie Munson, I mean, you knew this was designed.

He was going to be a lovable character. People were going to fall for him. That was the hope, yeah. Right. But was that always a design to kind of build him up, and yes, this was going to be a one-season arc for him. There was never a thought of it. In a way, I mean, we sort of saw Eddie as a bit of a doomed character.

I mean, even imagining the flip side of that, where he does survive that final battle, is not a lot, not a great life awaiting Eddie back in the right side up either. So we always, you know, he was really designed from the get-go as a doom character, unlike someone like Bob who was, oh, let's make a lovable character. And then it's like a shock to, you know, to really up the stakes. In this case, it's like Eddie sort of was hurtling towards his doom this whole season. But of course, you know, when you do a death in a show, if you're just, if you're killing someone that no one cares about, it has no impact. So the goal, of course, was to make Eddie, you know, a very likable character and have, you know, have the audience fall in love with him.

But to see the extent that they did obviously made us go, oh, boy, this is going to get a reaction. Yeah, but he was always, like Damien, you know, Damien Eccles and in the West Memphis three were always a huge influence. That's a tragic story. So it was like, in our mind, the minute we came up with this character, it was like, you know, he was going to be a tragic character. There was no, never any art, other arc for him. And like, as Ross is saying, there's, there's no, how do he survive this? I mean, he's still, you see at the very end, he's still, they're drawing devil horns on his head.

There's, you know, no one in Hawkins is going to accept some sort of supernatural explanation for any of this. He's going to wind that he would have wound up in jail. And this, this fantasy that he would have been able to walk and graduate, sadly is just like, you know, was not ever a realistic outcome for him. So it was like, it was a really sad, tragic story, but like, we always wanted there to be a little bit of hope there. And like, Eddie is frustrated with the world as he, as it is. Right.

And sort of the structures and values and morals. And he looks to specifically Mike and Dustin in this new generation of kids, the generation coming up after him as being that source of hope. That's why he's talking about, like, you know, rescuing all the little sheep. So in Eddie's mind, though he dies, he sees hope and not despair. And I think that's sort of what, you know, for the future. And that is what, you know, why I love that, you know, the final moment between him, you know, him and Dustin. Yeah. And Eddie and Eddie talks about it when he talked, I mean, Dustin talks about it when he talks to Eddie's uncle about how Eddie never, never changed and never gave up hope.

He wasn't, you know, he's not a nihilistic person. in spite of all that awfulness that was heaped on him. So I don't know. It's obviously a really sad story, but hopefully one that resonates with people. It was not designed for shock value. As a person of a certain age, as much as I all of the kids,

you know, I gravitate towards Harbor and Winona always. And they have, I don't know if the fans are going to call this, the shirtless hopper scene or what this scene will come to be known as, but it's a great scene between them. Oh, good. Oh, good. Can you talk to me about how that scene happened on the writing stage and on set? Like, what do you recall about kind of developing that very key moment in that relationship?

Well, obviously, you know, I know people have been waiting for this moment, and we have, too, for these characters finally, you know, admit to their feelings. And in this case, you know, lock lips. think it's been a long, long buildup to it. So, you know, we've waited till we found a spot, which happened to be, you know, top of nine, where there was a moment where we could actually keep it quiet. It's not sort of in the heat of the moment thing. It's where we could actually really build up the tension. And so that was part of our challenge with the riders was just trying to find out where we had room to do this and give it and give it justice. And then we just wanted to just milk that, milk that tension as much as we could for as for as long as we could

so that the payoff would be, would be satisfying. What were the actors like that day on set? I mean, to remember. I mean, David and Winona really get along, I think, and they were, you know, everything, there wasn't, no, it was like an exciting, fun, silly day. It was just, it was a great, I mean, it was a great, you know, it was a really fun scene and sequence to, sequence to shoot. And then there was actually and then and then you know there was that other kiss that that was added that was sort of an idea that they had they that they had on the spot but it's good that it is also a relief to get that moment done and out of the way and now they're sort of officially a couple after teasing it for they still haven't had their date though but uh it's it's going to be

challenging now because downtown got you know yeah i don't even know inzos is doing all right That's a good question. I'm worried about Enzo's, and I'm worried about Marissa, the librarian. Hopefully. No, we thought we actually came up with like,

I hope she's not in there in the library, is it erupts. I feel like the library would be closed at that point. She's probably at home, but she's out of a job. Let's talk a little bit.

So going forward, I mean, look, this season was such a, you know, as we've talked, the episodes were supersized. They kind of expanded. That wasn't necessarily earned, but that's just where the story dictated. So what are the learnings from this season

that you apply to the next one? I mean, do you go into the next one knowing, like, yeah, we can play with episode length. We can do six, two-hour movies, as it were. Like, how do you approach it? I know, but I think what you're saying is right in terms of that it was so much of it was dictated by the story. So Ross and I, you know, with our writers,

we're just going to have to sit down and really figure out the story. We don't expect it to be so long, long. And the only reason we don't expect it to be as long is because typically, or this season, if you look at it, it's almost a two-hour ramp up before our kids really get drawn into the supernatural mystery. And, you know, you get to know them, you get to see them in their lives. They're struggling with adapting to high school and so forth. Steve's trying to find a date. All of that. None of that obviously is going to be occurring in the first two episodes of

this. I mean, this is for the first time ever, we don't wrap things up at the end of four. And so everybody, it's going to be moving. I don't know if it's going to be going a hundred miles an hour at the start of five, but it's going to be moving pretty fast. Characters are already going to be in action. They're already going to have a goal and a drive. And I think that's going to carve out at least a couple hours and make this season feel really different. I'm sure the wrap up will be a lot longer. It's going to be return of the kingish. yeah with like eight endings i mean we do that already a little bit it's just like i got to give our you know you because you're writing and you're like well what about we got to give these characters

no but this is my thing about sorry i don't want to go on like too big of a return the king tangent if you it actually feels if you just watch return of the king it feels like too many endings right but you spent the time you put in the time with these characters you deserve it's actually exactly correct because if you you watch all of them back to back, which I've done, it's multiple times. It's exactly right. If it were any shorter, it would feel cheap and wrong. Right. So you're saying the final episode of Stranger Things will just be an epilogue. It will be a 90-minute epilogue, just everybody hugging. You might need it. Although I will say I do have issues with television, so they do do it where the

penultimate episode is the strong episode, and then they wind down on the last one. So we're more likely to do what we did here, which is just have a, you know, two and a half hour episode. Right. We kind of cheat in that sense. We do. In the sense that, yeah, the wind down is just part of a two and a half hour episode. I would expect the finale to be at least two hours and then, but I'm thinking it's not going to be a 13 hour long season in part just because it was so challenging to, but it was

challenging to produce, but it's not mainly that. It's mainly the fact that our characters aren't scattered to the wind. Right. In the same way this year. So everyone's going to be back in Hawkins, and that's just going to streamline things naturally and the fact that there isn't a big ramp up. So we'll see. I mean, you know, if you had talked to us at the start of writing four, I would have told

you it's eight episodes and they're about now along each. So I don't know. I wouldn't trust a word that comes out on the know. Do you anticipate it basically all being Hawkins now? Like do you come home and just stay in Hawkins? Yeah, that's what we anticipate and hope to do, which is to keep it contained in Hawkins. we want to, it's going to feel a lot larger and scale than season one. We want to go back to a lot of things we did in season one, a lot of the original groupings and pairings that we had in

season one. There's something nice about coming full circle. So it's going to feel bigger than season one, much more massive in terms of the stakes and the scale, but it's going to be, you know, we want to revisit a lot of things we did in season one. Have you thought about, because I know you guys were movie guys growing up and we'll get into that a little bit of that if we have time to talk about your background and your because I think we share a lot of the same interests but like has there has there been a thought of or serious conversation about releasing any of these in theaters of like in the final season to like release the finale as a movie or something like that that'd be sweet because you guys must want to see this with an audience like you that again yeah no it is

exciting I mean part of the the challenge is like we were even going to put the finale the last two episodes in a theater, that was a Netflix idea, but it just can't, like, we literally, as you know, just finished it. Like, when you, so to make a DCP and get it done, so some of it is just a logistical thing, but certainly, you know, especially with sound, like when you hear this in a movie theater sound with Atmos sound, which we do when we're mixing it, it's just, it does take it to another level. So it would be amazing in the future if we could figure out a way for that for fans to be able to see that. It's, yeah, it's more, you know, I ask Netflix about it all the time. I mean,

you know, it's just, I think it's challenge, you know, it is, it is challenging. Yeah. For a number of reasons, but I'm just going to keep asking about it. Maybe one day. And we'll, and we'll see. But yeah, no, it is something. Every year, the only time we get to experience it is at the premiere, the first, you know, episode. And it's so fun. Well, there's such, it's such an audience show. I mean, I was there at that premiere. And just to feel collective gasps and reactions and laughter, it's like certain shows don't work on the big screen. Your show absolutely a thousand percent would work on the big screen. Right. It's so, yeah, it is so fun. Yeah, it would be great to figure out for sure. So as you know,

Millie Bobby Brown has bloodlust. She wants death. She wants murder in the final season. I've heard. I've heard. So, Is there a body count? And do they know? Do the actors that may not make it? No, they do not know. No, they don't know. Well, to answer you, so no, they don't know.

But, you know, I mean, we aren't, we'll see. A lot more is on the table, you know, as we move into the final season. I mean, a lot of the, what did she call us? Millie, she said we were sensitive Sally's. Is that what she said? That's such an innocuous mean thing to say about somebody. She's hilarious. Anyway, yeah, she publicly called this sensitive Sally.

No, the reality is when you kill one of these characters, like, I mean, believe it, we've explored all of it, all options in the writing room. But the problem is just as a complete hypothetical, you kill Mike, you know, it's like that's Nancy, it's a depressing, it's not, we're not a depressed, we aren't Game of Thrones. We don't, you know, this is Hawkins, it's not Westrose. And like, it just, the show is not, because. becomes not stranger things anymore, because you do have to treat it realistically, right? I mean, you do, like, so even when a character, you know, not, I don't even, but when Barb dies, right, it's two seasons worth of grappling with that. So imagine, you know, imagine Mike Diane's like, do you want, is that something we're interested in exploring or not interested in exploring? Eddie's that is going to have huge repercussions on season five, right?

So that, that, you know, so it's not, you know, it's not just serving, you know, thematic purposes, serving narrative purpose. And then, and then Max, Max's coma is going to serve, you know. Just the ripple effect of Billy on Max this season. It's the same. Billy on that. Right. Exactly. Here, Billy does not exist with that. So every debt has impact. As we're moving in the final season, I think more of that's on the table because it is going to be, you know, you know, we'll see. Well, you're headed towards the end. So it's not like, you know, whatever the repercussions are, they're going into a match. imaginary season. So I don't know, but I, this is me basically defending myself against these

Millie Bobby Brown accusations and explaining that there's logic behind. It has nothing to do with my sensitivity. So there you go, Millie. Do you, do you, for the final season, do you build from the back to the front, you were talking about Return of the King. Let's talk about TV finalies. My brother was a writer and executive producer lost. So I'm well acquainted with all of this. I've everything that goes Yeah, no, the TV ending TV is a thing. So, like, do you wrestle with, like, yes, you want to give the audience answers to a certain number of questions. You're never going to answer everything, I would think, right?

But, like, there are certain key questions that you know as a person that's been an audience member yourself that need to be satisfied. Like, I guess, how do you approach satisfying yourself and satisfying an audience with a finale of a show when you know Sopranos, you know, every major show has had controversy, Game of Thrones. It never works. according to the fans. It's really, it's a challenge. And I think it also depends on the show, right?

Like, I think Sopranos is brilliant for that show. That would be a really weird Stranger Things ending if we did something like that. So I think some of it is going to depends on that. So when we talked about it. But for Matt and I, you know, every season, we just, we constantly talk about in the writer's room that it's about sticking the landing. So the stuff that happens in 409, you know, when I was talking about Eddie being doomed, all of that is that's some of the first big decisions that are made.

And we generally stick to those plans. We don't, we don't, I think it's, it's dangerous as a writer to be, you know, writing hours and hours of, and not know where you're going. I'd rather leave some of that middle journey vague and fuzzy, but you know where, as long as you know where that destination is, it sort of gives you that clarity. It's like that lighthouse blinking in the distance. So we do, you know, during the pandemic when we and everyone else,

you know, shut down, we worked with the rioters. And that was a big focus was like, do we know what that, make sure that whatever that final destination is feels right? And at the moment, we feel pretty confident about it. So while a lot of season five is actually pretty blurry, the last, you know, 30 minutes of it are pretty clear in our head. So if we can, if we can make the journey entertaining, I think that we have an end that will hopefully satisfy. Again, like you're saying, you can't satisfy everyone. But the hope is that it's, you know, something that feels, feels right for this story. It was just one of those things that it just feels inevitable.

And so it was like, okay, that just feels like that feels like the right, that feels like the right ending for the show. And I don't, I think it's super, it's so, it's hard every year. I mean, it's weird doing a television show. Like, so I always think about back to season one and I'm like, well, you had no idea what anyone was going to respond to or react to. there's something so pure about that. And then like every year you work on it, it's like more and more people shouting at you. Or voices, yep, yep, yeah.

Shut it out at the end, go back to the beginning and just trust your instincts, right? You got to. You have to. There's no other way to do it. I'm like, it's because it's so, I mean, it's scary, but like you cannot please everybody. Something's going to upset somebody.

And so at the end of the day, it's like, okay, let's just do what we did with season one. That made a lot of people happy. just and which is just let's make do what excites us we have a small tiny group of people a writer's room it's like and that is the closest thing to a focus group that we have and we all it's like if if ross and i are excited about it and our friends or you know in our room are are excited about it and feel good about it and it's like okay it's like let's that's what we'll do let's not like consult Reddit if if you wanted to I'm sure Netflix would be

happy for you to spend the next decade of your life do expanding the sandbox right four different spinoffs what you know what hbos doing with game of thrones exploring every aspect and nook and cranny and i know there's one spinoff that you are pursuing but i guess i'm just this is a fascinating career thus far and it's going to get more interesting because it's like it's so much of it has been really game of throne so we i'm not getting stranger things for what we know you from i guess i'm curious like do you have that appetite to spend like a lot of time in this universe the next decade or is it more of like, we want to put a bow on this and then explore other stuff. Exactly that, very much that.

I mean, so we do, we are, actually, we were working on it today. It's a spinoff idea that we haven't told anybody about. Is this the one know that Finn, Finn knows? Yeah, no, it's right. I think it drove Netflix phrase that we're talking about in the press and they don't know what it is. Oh, so Finn knows and literally Netflix still doesn't know what it is. No.

No, they were just asking. I wonder if they're like trying to get it out of Finn. They're really, they're not, they're not irritated, but they're like, you know come on where fin wolf part is being waterboarded by ted sarandos right now i know i feel like he's escaped to canada no no he didn't it's not like he machine gunned ideas out he just he's just like is it this i don't know and it's so off the wall it's not what anyone would think so i don't know how i've been figured out that kid's that he's a really great smart kid um and really creative kid but like uh no so we have that idea but the idea ultimately is to sort of

past of a time to someone else who, you know, someone hopefully who's like really talented and passionate. And even the idea of Ross and I say doing a pilot and then leaving it, it's just like, it just feels silly to me. It's like you, you know, you need to be there. You really need to be there from the beginning to, you know, beginning to the end. I think, I think we need to find, you know, a partner to help us with that. Otherwise, yeah, it's going to, this, this show will have been about 10 years of our lives by the time we're done. So it's like a decade of my life and I loved every second of it. I don't take any of the back.

But yeah, I don't want to do another decade in the Stranger Things universe. So I think that's sort of what we're thinking about. We do want to be very involved and we have an idea that we're really, really jazzed about. But at the same time, you know, we have other stuff than we want to do in other stories. So hopefully, yeah, we find that right person to pass the baton to while we we go on to do new stuff. So does the spinoff, I know you're not going to tell me anything, but I'm going to go fruitlessly ask anyway. Is it have like any familiar character or familiar setting or is it totally just different characters, different actors, a thousand percent different just. It's, uh, what can I what can I say that we'll get, um, I think we can say that it's, it's a thousand percent different.

this right yeah yeah yeah no no it's not it's not following i've read these rumors that it you know there's going to be an 11 spin-off right this is even dustin spin-off um or it's going to follow number four or yeah another number it's like that's not interesting to me because i feel like it's like we've done all that i mean we spent you know i don't know how many hours exploring all that so it is it's it's you know it's it's very different um but it shares it does there are there's connective tissue but almost the most important connective tissue, I would say, is the storytelling sensibility of it. And I think that that's more than anything, uh, what connect. There is story that connects to the Stranger Things world, but it really is more about how we're telling that story.

I think it was like that was mostly what Stranger Things was it's like, no, I mean, I get that when people say it was always, you know, it's just a big love letter homage to these films, but really it was an homage, more us trying to recapture that style of storytelling or that, that, storytelling sensibility that seemed to have kind of gone out of fashion and then we moved in 2000s. I love Chris Nolan, but everything became like very dark and real and grounded. And so, you know, you wanted to bring, we wanted to bring back that sort of a little bit more. Um, it's since and, you know, no, um, not ironic, sincere. Right. Um, adventure, um, family storytelling that just seems have gone, you know, with the exception of Super 8, nobody was doing. And the Super 8 was kind of a

one-off. We've loved Super 8. I loved Super 8. But then it was gone. I mean, it was like, there was no other Super 8. There was no super 9, you know, and then, and no one else did it. No one else did it. And I was like, I do think there's an appetite for this, or that's why I hoped, for this type of storytelling. So that really more than anything is what it is. It's still like trying to stay in that zone. Is there, I know we could spend an hour just talking about your influences because it sounds like they're all the same ones I grew up with and I love. But give me a sense of like the evolution of like the posters on the wall, the evolution of the directors, like the first director that you guys bonded over through, like was it Spielberg to Zemeckis to lynch? Like give me a

little bit of a trajectory of like where you guys. It really started with Tim Burton was the first one just because when we were really young, well, I mean, Tim Burton's amazing. And when we were really young we fell in love with his Batman and then going from following his other movies his style is so distinct right you can see from any still you can understand that even as a child like you can recognize his art direction like I didn't know what art direction was but it's like it's such a personal stamp yeah from film to film so I think it really that was Tim Burton was the first time we were like oh there's someone behind the scenes overseeing this whole thing So that was really our first love.

And then of course, you know, it led to, you know, Spielberg and Zemeckis and then scream when we saw that really led us down. That was sort of our gateway drug into horror. And then we became high school for us was really a lot of it was about Sam Ramey and just his. Sam Ramey was actually middle school. So we saw Evil Dead in the sixth grade, which was like too early for Evil Dead because it's not funny. it's just sheer horror at that point. Yeah, but John Carpenter, West Craven, but I think Sam Ryan Parker,

because it's like, we really like that in Peter Jackson's early work, where when we were younger, because it's so bold, you know, we really like, it's, you know, the David Leans of the world were not blown our minds

when we were in middle school. It was like, big Gandhi heads. You guys are like, let's fire up the double cassette of Gandhi one more time. He loved the way he moved the camera. I mean, I even remember seeing the first, do you remember the scene that seeing the first

Spider-Man that Sam Ramey did. I was like, why, why is the camera so static? Like, where's, you know, why is Sam Ramey not flying this camera around? Typically. And he finally did it in Spider-Man, too, you know, in that Doc-Ock sequence. I was like, okay, there is this? There's my Sam Ramey. Were you guys listening to, I know you have this new master class, which, by the way, I'm a big fan of the master class series that the left of you guys are doing this is awesome. I feel like masterclass is like the equivalent of like director's commentary when we were growing up listening a little bit. was that were you into those like was there one in particular oh my god yeah i've been wanting to do it

for there's just not like i can't remember what netflix says i was like i would love to do a director's commentary but that um anyway maybe one day someone did one and i think no one no one listened to it but yes no exactly we're exactly like i'm sure you were dressed at where it's like that was how we learned so through the direct and also the um you know any of the behind the scenes documentaries were like very, very helpful. I'm, like, I'm so grateful for those, you know, like the Lord of the Rings, behind the scenes, the Lord of the Rings. I still watch those and learn from those because it's so incredible what they pulled off. I mean, it stresses me out a little of that behind the scenes because Peter Jackson is always so stressed because he's

such a Goliath. I mean, it's unbelievable what they did. But I love that. I mean, when you're not from Hollywood like we were that was our way in to see even how a how a set runs you know you know it just to see a prop house to see you know what a PA is doing to see what the AD is doing like that's that is how we learn and so I do miss that aspect that that sort of DVD boom right around 99 to whatever it was 2005 that was a glorious time for a film nurse a thousand percent so this this i'm fascinated by the trajectory of your career okay so like the the clip notes version is and check me if i'm wrong did did hidden come before wayward pines or bite yes hidden hidden was the first thing that we wrote that i think it came out later because they

put it on a shelf but yeah it was first it was theoretically first yeah for context you guys had got the film school you done a bunch of shorts you you direct a film a wonder brothers film a studio film, Andrea Reisborough, Alexander Scarsguard. And with all due respect, this might be the lowest grossing studio film I've ever heard of my friends. Yeah, no, it was a disaster. I mean, it was a disaster in the sense they didn't release it. Right. It's out in a shelf like three years, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then when they put it out, it was just, you know, VOD. And this was pre-streaming, right? So there was no option of putting it on, you know, HBO Matt. I'm sure now if we had done it, they would have put it on you know straight to their streaming service or something like that but this that wasn't an

option and it just uh it sort of sat there and so yeah it was this feeling of uh you know it was like that james cagney is like ma at the top of the world kind of moment and then it just you explode it it was like nothing you know um you know you pour three years of your life into something and to see nobody see it and then everyone scatters like also it's like right produced producer scatter studio like everyone answering the phones they're just not yeah everybody leaves you high and dry and it just felt like we were at a really uh low place after that you were in probably what they called director of jail right like essentially for a little bit i don't think we were even prominent enough to be in dick like i don't think anyone knew who we are to even arrest us you know

that's how out of it we were it felt like we had finally after knocking for a long time it had finally been let in the door yeah and that it in you know everyone talks about imposter syndrome yeah and uh which i think so many people who experienced any amount of success in hollywood feel that actors directors writers and so that was like a real sense of it it was like oh wait they accidentally let me in here and it was a mistake and i got kicked out so it took a while for us to like you validated my self doubt in myself yeah yeah i was right i was right yeah i was right to doubt myself every single day on that set so it was like um yeah it was a really hard point and then i mean we still like i mean i didn't know we didn't we don't really have any other skills so we still

you know i didn't you know we're never going to give up on this dream right and we just kept going around trying to picture movie ideas and everyone kept asking us about if we had any television ideas because everyone wanted television and ross and i were just not television guys so we didn't have a television idea. And then randomly one day we did, which was the idea for Stranger Things. I mean, it was like a paragraph long. What was the elevator pitch? What was like the short version that you would get? I'm sure we had it in our masterclass. But the really short version was because it was right after we came out of Denny Villeneuve's prisoners that we had the idea. So the really the shortest version of it that morning was,

just a supernatural kidnapping. That was how it started. It was like prisoners kind of mixed with, you know, that altergeist idea of like someone is lost, you know, a child is lost in another dimension. How do you get them back? I don't think we didn't initially have the concept for all the kids and everything. But then we had this old idea. It was like it was going to be a found footage thing about Montag.

And there's all these, you know, we're conspiracy nuts. So we grew up obsessed with the Philadelphia experiment and this Montau. Contag conspiracy where there was all this bizarre theories in terms of, you know, involving testing on children, psionic ability, you know, psionic kids, portals to other dimensions. And so we kind of, and that all took place at the end of this 70s and early 80s. And we're like, well, that's, if we set our supernatural kidnapping idea in Montauk and around this base, and that's what resulted in the kid. going missing. Then we're in the 80s or the early 80s. And then we're like, oh, wow,

that's really fun. And then that's when we introduced the Amblin aspect into it. And then we got really genuinely excited about it. And then I remember even that week going to pitch somebody, like we just pitched them the elevator pitch. And there was just like nothing. And they were not interested at all. And I was like, I was like, I really thought this was the idea. But anyway, so we're like we need um and the other problem is rosa had no television experience experience and we didn't want to just write it and have someone else take it away from us and then like no within a week it was a week or two weeks we got contacted by fox and shaman who is someone who we grew up idolizing um and he was a big influence on us and then he he had read our script

hidden which was kind of a rip off of his movies and though he liked the script hidden because I think it reminded him of his work because we were aping him basically and he wanted us to write on the show Weaward Pines and they're like would you go down you know we and they flew us out to and we're like of course and we flew out to um shaman's house and we stayed on his like compound basically for two weeks he was next door writing uh the visit at the time and then he would come in every once in a while and check in on us and we learned a lot from him and that two weeks working on the show and then we eventually flew up to where were they shooting in Vancouver and we worked on the show and we we learned a lot about television and we I guess we ended up writing about

half four of those scripts or something like that something like but it was funny because it was like the first time we wrote a television script I remember um I think it was for episode one of the episodes five yeah we got a call from night and he was like you guys you can't this is ridiculous you can't this is in you can't produce this on television Like, it was going to cost an obscene amount of money. It's like, right, you're writing television. So now we're writing the scripts that night, that now we're finally able to write the kind of scripts that night.

And Fox were, you know, was just, it was impossible at the time to produce something with that scale. And so we had those dreams of sort of merging the two very early on. And we just were naive about what Fox. Some of it is like the little, like the interstitial scenes. You know, like I remember on Wayward Pines where I was like, These monsters are coming and we wrote a scene where there's just a neighborhood dog and he's hearing something and he just starts barking. Right.

That's it. And they go, well, we can't shoot that. We can't put lights out there and shoot this dog doing it. And they're like, we don't need it. We just need to go to Matt, Matt Dillon over there. And I'm like, yeah, but that's the kind of stuff. And that's the stuff that I think can separate cinema from television. So it's really exciting now, not just with Stranger Things, but overall that the form is evolving to allow scenes like.

just a dog barking at the woods because that's the kind of stuff that makes uh to me can make a movie special it's not just the scenes close-ups of our leads but it was it was also very weird just only being writers and just and then and then eventually seeing the episode um you know on on television it was weird it was like i was like i really want to be a part of this you know especially if it's our own idea i really want to be it there from beginning to end and i never want to leave it and i and just see it all see it all the way through so it became increasingly important to us with stranger things to stay involved and that as showrunners despite having like no experience and also directors and that became a challenge um like there was a company i won't name where it was like

you know they loved the project loved it wanted to buy it and but we're not keen on the idea of us directing it and they said uh could we you know could we see your film this is the film hidden that's done nothing but negative things for us and so we sent it to them and then they go yeah yeah we don't want them directing after watching it it was like the most hurtful thing ever and then we walked but we walked away and I was like so I always tell and I mentioned this in the like master class thing too it's like there is a power even if you're totally powerless just in saying no like people do start to like go oh what maybe they know what they're talking about when you don't actually So a lot of it's sort of, you know, the fake until you make it bullshit is kind of true.

Well, speaking of saying, saying no, here's something that must boggle my mind or maybe your mind. Like so if I talk to you right before Stranger Things had happened, I would think any number of projects that could have come your way, like even offers to direct something, would have intrigued you and be like, oh, that's a great opportunity. That's really exciting. Yada, yada, yada. Yeah. And now, and now, though, like, you have the pick of the lit. you probably are saying no, I would imagine, both by virtue of how busy you are and your ambition.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, to us, it's certainly there, that mostly happened postseason one of like, here are these opportunities to play in these sandboxes in these world, sort of, and that was before we were really committed to the show Netflix. And at a certain point, Matt and I just went, well, why would we go to this other, we, other IP that someone else made, you know, what's the upside of money, much years ago? Like, we made this IP, you know, on our own.

And so at a certain point, we just went, no, let's, despite the pull of some of these other properties where you go, well, I grew up loving that. At the same time, it was exciting to go, wait, well, we made this IP. And I always talk, I talk about this to Netflix, which is that, you know, Spielberg wanted to make James Bond. And Lucas goes, well, I got something better. which is Indiana Jones, right? Which I think is better and more exciting to me as a property.

And he owned like Spielberg is like it's like Spielberg's. He would have never been that James Bond would never be his. Right. And the way that. Didn't Lucas want to do Flash Gordon before Star Wars essentially? Exactly. Flash Gordon Star Wars. Like another great.

So I think there's a power to, yeah. I mean, in this age of IP, it's exciting that we are, you know, Netflix allows us to sort of do something at this scale. of something that was, you know, an original idea seven years ago. It's my favorite thing ever that Netflix has no, like, no IP. I know. Like, it's the best thing about Netflix. Yeah, they can't say, well, what about these six other things over here?

No, they're like, well, you want to look at what did we do back in the, like, you know, 70s and 80s, maybe one of these things will inspire you. And it's like, they don't have that. And so they're very invested in creating new IP. And like, to me and Ross, like, that is, I mean, it's a little bit riskier, I guess, in some sense. not really. I mean, you know, I'm even seeing it happen with Stranger Things now where the expectations from these fans are just like, it's, I don't know, man. It's, it's, it's scary. And I like, there's something nice about starting fresh and, and trying something new, something that is

inspired by the stuff that you love. And, but it's its own new thing. That being said. and more exciting. Look me in the eyes and say you have not had the Kevin Feige meeting and the Kathleen Kennedy meeting. You've had both of us. No, no. I have not had either of those meetings, no. I definitely never heard from Marvel.

No. Ever. But we do know, we do know the Russo brothers who are great, Joe and Anthony. They've reached out and they've been like really sweet and supportive. Yeah. But, you know, it's funny, one of our first jobs out of college sort of in that in between prior to selling hidden was reading scripts. for a live action Star Wars television series.

This was before it had sold to Disney. Underworld, right? That was that famous. Yeah, and so we just were reading because we actually interned at Kennedy Marshall. But even then I never met Kathy Kennedy because they were off making more of the world. So I was like in this weird.

We were basically pretty much in a closet. We were. I don't know if it was a glorified. We were in a closet, but I did find my favorite discovery there was I found a letter. from Daniel Day Lewis to Stephen Spielberg declining the role of Lincoln. This was prior, of course, to him a green like five or ten years later.

So it was the most like eloquent polite letter. It was very polite and felt like a felt tip pen. It was, yeah, he was already in character just in case. But anyways, no, but we haven't had those meetings, nor have I ever even met her. One day. One day. It's on the, it's on the bucket list. For sure. They're both doing tremendous job.

Yeah, yeah, they're awesome. Meanwhile, apparently John Watts is doing like a Stranger Things inspired Star Wars show. There you go. It all comes around. I don't know. I don't know. Were you comic book guys? You mentioned Batman.

Like every, I feel like every writer or filmmaker or actor I say, it's always like when I ask about the one comic book character, it's always Batman. Batman's the one like. Batman was the one for us. Certainly when we were kids and like specifically, as Ross said, Tim Burton's, the version of him. We always wanted superhero things, but we never read the comic.

books you know uh so we'd be obsessed with like the x-men cartoon series and things like that but we never actually became we're never comic book that's why we would actually be bad matches at marvel or dc because um it just i don't know if i have enough you know someone should do it someone should do it who knows more yeah about it you know i mean like because i don't think you should be doing something because i don't know i think we'd probably would probably make not the best the best thing you know What about Star Wars then? Is that going to... Star Wars is pretty awesome.

Yeah. But what an amazing universe to play in, you know? But maybe one day. But right now, we're... We are excited about... I'm interested in the IP thing. You mean the new IP thing? Not the IP.

Yeah, the new IP and what we can do with sort of this long-form movie storytelling thing and what that's allowed for. for us, which is, because it opens up so, so, like, if Stranger Things had been a movie, I don't think it would have been very interesting. I think it would have felt a lot like, you know, Super 8th. And that we, oh, we had just kind of seen this, like, done really well, like six years ago, five years ago. What was interesting about it and what got us excited was when we started to think about

what does it look like over eight hours. And it's like, oh, wait, suddenly you can, you can have the Nightmare in Elm Street teen storyline, and you can have the Gooney storyline. And you can have the chief of police and, and, you know, Richard drives close encounter storyline. You can have all of that and then you can weave it together. And even this year, it's fun. It was like, we've Ross and I have always wanted to do, you know, we always wanted to do a nightmare in Elm Street. We always have wanted to do like a prison escape.

And so it's it's so fun to basically be able to do these different genres and movies and then weave them into one one story. yeah you're getting the boast of all possible worlds because you're bringing this like film sensibility and know you've talked about each season and it's a very intelligent way to think about it as like a sequel as like you know the T2 the et cetera what Cameron does like kind of reinvent but you have more leeway you have more you know real estate to kind of just like go to go to the side stories etc exactly um talk to me a little bit about so at this point like are you as we tape as we tape this the last two episodes haven't come out yet. Are you going to be like watching?

Are you, can you like not watch the fan reaction? Like are you, where are you headspace-wise on the Reddit's at everything when it starts to blow out? No, we're going to, I'm going to have to look at the fanbase. I wish I had the self-control, but the good news is we're both going on vacation in a few days. So I'll just, I'll take it in for, take it in for a couple days. A lot of it will be people sending it to me. And then, and then I'm going to shut off my phone and just let it live in the world for a bit. I don't believe you'll be able to fully shut your time.

I'll try. Good luck. I definitely am going to try not to not to look. Most of the excitement occurs pretty quickly. You kind of get a sense very early on. I mean, I mean, sometimes it'll change. It's the Roman gladiator, you know, you're just seeing the thumb move. That's right.

Yeah. For some reason, I'm less nervous. I was really, really nervous, like, before the season four. The first volume. The first volume came out. I'm less, maybe I should be nervous, but I feel. like a little less nervous because people know the tone and it very much is still if you like the first seven you know chances are you going to like the first two minus hopefully you don't

want to kill us over the Eddie thing is the only thing making me go oh oh did any of the reaction over the years you guys have pretty pretty much emerged relatively unscathed by the fans and critics I mean I think back to maybe I don't know was there a lot of like around the bottle episode an episode in season two, maybe a little bit of talk about that one being, you know, that was an experiment for you. Yeah, that's not people's favorite episode. For sure. Was that ever intended as an actual kind of a backdoor pilot or was it just no, no, no, no, not at all. No, I was more of an excitement of going, oh, are there other numbers out there and what would that look like in making it part of 11th's journey? But, you know, so obviously

we see those reactions and certainly not the reactions you want, but I remember coming into the writer's room on season three and the first thing us all talking about is we can't we we know we could play it safe if we want to we know that we could do that and that we don't want to that doing that is a swing for the fences move and so we wanted we wanted to keep doing that every year and and i think you not to get not we didn't want it to get you know getting any sort of negative reaction to cause us to right get too jittery about trying new things but it does i mean it does shake you a little bit, obviously. Like, I mean, you don't, you know, you don't want to miss. Although it's not like we, with that episode, you'd be more shaken, I think, if you go, oh, I'm shocked at

that response. And we weren't, you know, obviously. And so I think that, you know, I would be more shaken if, if something that I, that I was like, oh, I know this is good, people are going to react like this and they don't. That would have, that would shake me more. But I think, you know, again, just swing for the fences. And this year, you're, you know, obviously we've got our, giant long episodes in multiple locations. We have our monster who's, you know, talking to people and it's a relief that Vecna worked. But obviously, for us, it was scary because you go, we're putting an actor in a suit, Jamie in a suit. And he's saying lines like, join me. And like, that's, that can, you could have fallen flat on your face. And, but that is the kind of thing where

we want to just keep doing that. Don't, don't play it safe. We could have fallen flat on our faces. But I'd rather that fall flat on our faces than then just play it safe. Because no one's happy with that. Part of the balance, though, is making sure, and I know that, you know, this is a balance that the fans get agitated sometimes about how long it takes. But the more time we have, the better. Like, you know, it's like, you know, like I've described it as it, it does really feel like at a certain point, you know, you build half the tracks. You know, you build half the track the railroad track and the train's going and you just have to you know it just feels like a race at least that's how it felt you know the first three seasons where we're just trying to frantically

get the track built before the train crosses it in a certain point you just have to put track down and so this was the first year where even if sometimes you know that track is a little crooked or whatever and this was the first year where we um you know we're able to have it all written able to look at it and able to correct course correct as we were going so that was a relief and i think that may be um and i think i think i think it made a difference and i think we're talking about season five and netflix is actually the ones who were really interested in us doing this again which is having all the scripts written ahead ahead of time it just it just requires more more more more riding time.

Yeah. And, you know, a lot of this has made one reason to also, I'm not sure people understand. One reason it takes as long as it does is because Ross and I are directing. And normally, you know, the show, you know, your show running and writing it, you're not, you're not also directing because that means we're not able to be writing, obviously, while we're directing. So that adds, that adds time. But I don't know, I think especially as it's the final season, I think we want to make sure we're

not indulgent, but we take a little bit more time to make sure we get it right. Don't want to, don't want to slip at the end. No, I hear you. I hear you. I do want to say, among the many joys, you brought a lot of joy to me with the show itself, but also bringing David Harbor into my life and bringing me closer to my childhood love, Winona, who is just the most wonderful, esacratic human being on the planet. What's been the most unique note question that Winona has posed to you in the course of the show. What stands out when you think of a one. Millions and quite. That's what

Winona, she comes on set every day with a lot of questions and thoughts. And she's great. She's always right. That's the first thing you realize about Winona. She's like extremely intelligent. There's thought

you know, she has to understand exactly you can't bullshit her. You can't you know, if you're just trying to get out a piece of exposition, there better be a reason why Joyce is singing. I mean, it's all, it's a collaborative. It's not an antagonistic process. They're very like positive creative process with her. But I'm trying to remember, I mean, well, a lot of it, honestly, with Winona is, I mean, occasionally it's just making sure that the logic is sound. And then some of it is just,

she is a really great understanding of both Joyce's voice and also how she can sell something like exposition in order. So she'll tweet. around and move the words around so a lot of the conversation with nona on set is hey can i delete this word or move this one over here and do this and then you we go you know we see her practice and suddenly it sounds one more organic and also just sounds like joyce and so uh i don't know it's it's always a pleasure it's always nice to have an actor that has that much of an understanding she has it yeah it's she has an incredible ear so if we write something that's just the tone is just a touch off she'll pick up on it but then she'll be um work with us to get it get it exactly right so

it's been so impressed with her like film knowledge like she's like oh it's insane like oh it's insane i mean she talks to us about movies i've never i've never heard us i know she'll be like have you seen this movie and i'm like i don't i'm embarrassed i'm that is and i look it up on i'm dv and it has like 500 votes like no one you know if you've looked up if a movie is five 500 votes on IMDB. That is deep, deep cut. That is, that is beyond a cult film. Last week, I asked her to send me a list. Nice. Because she's making her boyfriend, Scott, go through. She's like, you got to watch this. You got to watch this. So I said, can you give me that? Give me that list because I guarantee you I haven't seen like 70% of it.

No. Yeah. Yeah, she schools everybody with film knowledge. Her film. I'll let you go on this. first respect on the sneakers sweatshirt. My niece is what we just... I was hoping you would like it. Oh, my nieces just watched sneakers the other day for the first time and told me, and it made me so happy. I was like, yes. Too many secrets.

Does it still work for the new? Does it work? They liked it. They really liked it a lot. Yeah, I was actually pleasantly surprised. Oh, that's great. It's a huge big one for us. Vecna is Vecna is the big bad of the final season?

Is there a new, like, what could... He is the big bad. Yeah, he is still the big bat. Okay. For sure. For sure. For sure, the final season. That's right.

Okay. I'll let you go on that. Gentlemen, this has been a long time coming. Congratulations. Take a big exhale. You did it. You delivered.

Get a well-deserved vacation. And I'm glad finally, you know, it was such a pleasure to meet you in that chaotic, bizarre environment of the premiere, but it's even better to get to know you today, guys.

Yeah, no, it's awesome. This is great. This is so much fun. Is this going to be on TikTok too or no? We weren't live streaming, were we? Oh, yeah.

You guys are blowing up on TikTok right now. On Friendsster, you guys are just huge right now. I prefer this, for sure. This is a mold and more my speed. Thank you, Josh. This is so much fun. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pleasure to do this by Josh. Bye. Summer movies, Hello Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget

Emma Stone and Jorgos' Borgonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes the running man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.