Happy Sad Confused - Matthew Vaughn

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Matthew Vaughn knows action. He knows spies. And he knows making big popcorn entertainment. Just look at his credits, LAYER CAKE, X-MEN: DAYS OF FUTURE PAST, KICK-ASS, KINGSMAN, and now ARGYLLE starring Henry Cavill. In this rare extended chat, Matthew talks about his entire career, his love of Superman and Star Wars, and that time he was the director of a James Bond film for 24 hours. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! HelloFresh -- Go to HelloFresh.com/50hsc and use code 50hsc for 50% off plus free shipping! ZocDoc -- Go to Zocdoc.com/HappySad and download the Zocdoc app for FREE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. So where are you at on Bond now? Because you know, as well as I do, that your name always comes around for Bond. There is about as much chance. No, I would say, I think I've got more chance being cast as Bond as directing Bond. Seriously?

Yeah. Why do you say that? Ask them. They're not keen on me. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. I'm Josh Horowitz. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, we've got a kick-ass director who actually has a kick-ass film.

to his credit. He's also got three Kingsman films and so many more credits. My favorite X-Men film of all time. And his latest coming soon is Argyle. I am so thrilled to welcome. Matthew Vaughan to happy, say I can fuse for the very first time. Welcome, sir. Hello.

Quite an intro. Hey, I mean, no cue cards, just off the dome. I was impressed. I was really, I thought, wow. Well, I'll do my best to keep you in that chair and happy and satisfied. I was going to say, like, you know, we were talking before. I've done some small bits some bobs with you over the years, but I feel very privileged. Like, in my research, you haven't done a lot of long chats about the career,

and I feel this trust is very misplaced. You've made a horrible call, Matthew. Well, you can thank the Sag Strike. Yeah, I was going to say. So I'm being asked to do things I wouldn't normally do, but hey-ho. I was going to say, yeah, you've assembled this amazing cast for Argyle. You must be the most resentful man besides the actors for the strike because normally you'd be pushing Henry and Sam and Bryce in front of you Yeah, no, I'm saying well Matthew has to carry the load. This is your confused part. Yes, it's

It's frustrating and but I think the strike's got a load more bigger problems and people than me however I do hope when it's over it will be much more fun sitting here with a bunch of actors to hide behind him You're in town in my neck of the woods in New York for Comic-Con. You are no stranger to Comic-Con. I remember you were here for the King's Man a few years ago. Do you have affection for Conns? For Comic-Conn's in particular, what are your memories of coming to these kind of things over the years?

I have a huge, huge affection. Primarily, they made Kick-Ass get distribution. So when we made Kick-Ass, nobody wanted it and it was a terrifying moment because I turned up and we were going on stage after Cameron with Avatar

and I was like this this is going to help and yeah let's say Avatar didn't saw then as much as we were imagining and I think sometimes being the underdog helps

and the audience were great I mean that room Hall H was fantastic and their cheering made executives here maybe a little bit of money and of course they didn't have well I'll be polite about them for a second but they did they they needed a nudge which that happened well I was going to get to this this is kind of a recurring theme in your career I feel like I love your work because my sense is over the years you you trust your own gut you trust your instincts you make the movies that you want to see on the big screen yeah and studios we love studios there are some studio folks here we they put up the money they make it happen

Why do you love studio? Well, I love it because they have the mechanism by which we get to see your films. Okay. Eventually. Eventually. So I guess my question for you is, do you feel that push and pull still? Because you've had to kind of like play that game, but you also need to stay true to yourself, and you've somehow managed to do that. Yeah, I have to be, well, I shouldn't be careful.

No, because it's I think the studios I mean it's like any artistic form that you look at the music business now you look at movies, you look at fashion you know the financing and the commerce

has taken over the creative and that always means eventually for short term gains you do well long term you kill everything and I think that's what's happening right now whether it's film music fashion art even

It's commerce took over. Now the pendulum is about to swing back, started. And creativity should always be the driving force of any decision. And then you figure out how to make money out of it afterwards. But if you're trying to make money up front, you'll kill some brilliant franchises. What percentage of the notes you've gotten from studios over the years have actually been helpful, would you say? Can you think of it off the top of your head that actually improved your film? Notes are a really good thing, and sometimes the studio notes of something being wrong is they're right.

They're very good at identifying problems. They have... Not the solution. They're saying the solutions are truly dreadful. And so I've... Yeah, I think... Yeah, no, I'm trying to think of specific notes. I mean, you sort of...

Yeah, I mean, I don't really get that many notes. We're totally independent as well. So I tend to show movies when they're finished to Hollywood. But by friends, I mean, I love test screenings because then you get notes from people that are actually sitting there to enjoy the film. They're not scared of the movie, not working. They're just watching it as a viewer. So their notes are they're correct, whether I like them or not. If you watch a movie and you have a reaction to it, it is what you have to listen to it.

And when I try to do, if I don't like the reaction, if more people have this reaction I don't like, then I'll change it. Or if it's just a one-off. And it's balancing the level of the complication. You know, if you get too complicated, you lose too much for the audience. But if it's too simple, you lose a clever audience. So it's a balancing act for my movies.

Which of your films you think change the most, thanks to a series of screenings, whether it's friends and family or just anonymous audiences that saw your movies. As a producer, we did a had to do a lot of work on Snatch with screenings. And that was the first time we'd done test screenings with Snatch. We never done that before. So it was odd to suddenly making a movie that people were actually interested in. So that, I think Snatch, we really had to hone a lot through screenings.

And as a director, I'd probably see. say the Kingsman actually because that was a real balancing act and of people really coming in expecting something totally totally in the Kingsman world not getting that and trying to actually by the end we did try and dial it back a little bit right the Rasput and stuff I know you dialed back a little bit because it was pretty oh that was oh god yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly we try to make it less um I was about to say less manageable and you can understand what that means in this in a context as well no I remember being surprised in a good way for by the Kingsman because it's more manageable even sorry I got you yeah but um because it's as much like

it was as much a world war one you know drama in some ways as it was a what your signature kind of wild style and it was right a tricky thing uh want to manage I would imagine yeah it was it was hard because the pressure on the Kingsman was and I had to explain this to certain people that it can't start as a Kingsman movie because it's about the birth of the Kingsman so you've got to start somewhere very you know it's in the first film when Colin Firth is talking about you know we were founded in 1919 and because of many many of our founders had lost their children and the war so i don't believe in a world war comedy it's not my my instinct to all so i felt we start there and it's and you know the death of comrade is the birth of the kingsman and once we get

through the sadness, then we can start dialing up the more Kingsman-y tropes. So for much of the last decade, I mean, obviously, you've been producing a lot of things, but on the directing side really has been devoted to the two Kingsman films, the Kingsman. Now we have Argyle. Which definitely feels from the trailer, everything I love about Matthew Vaughn, that has some distinct differences from some of the films you've done in that. Well, we'll get this. More than you can imagine, but you'll have to have.

have to see it to find out what they are. Unless you've seen it. I haven't seen it. I'm dying to see it. I am all in on this, though. So let's talk a little bit about what this movie is about. So this is not based on any IP that I'm aware of. Or define IP.

Pre-existing. It's based on a book. It is based on a book. Yes. Okay, so I'm confused by this because has this book been published yet? It's coming out in January. Okay. So it's been written.

I've read it. It. Okay. The author of the book, the name of that person. Ellie Conway. Ellie is also one of your principal characters in Argyle, the author within the story. Correct. Credited as a co-screenwriter currently, I believe, on the film as well. So this is a real human being. No, no. Okay. Jason Fuchs is the writer. Okay. So real human... Of the script. Wrote the script. Ellie wrote the book. Just getting the basics down for me. Try.

I'm just doing my best. So there's some meta qualities already because she's... A lot of better qualities, a lot of matter, yeah. And I guess give me your, I don't know how you are on the quote-unquote elevator pitch. What is, in the gist, how would you describe what Argyle is? Well, do you want to finish off the book side of it, or do you want me to pitch the film? Which one do you want? I want both, man.

Let's pitch the film and then we'll come back around to the specifics about around the book. So Argyll, like him in... I'm always sort of just, most of my movies are always, I call them a love letter to the movies I loved as a kid or which I felt could be reinvented. And when we, during lockdown, it was the first time I could actually get the family to watch movies together and I could pick a film

and they'd actually watch it because they were, you know, they had no choice. No choice. Exactly. They were open. So we watched movies like charade. We watched romancing the Stone and they loved it. And actually my daughter.

said why don't we make movies like this and then with serendipity came i read the book they were the manuscript of the book and met with fuchs and we just came up with this it is a very meta movie so it's got lots of tropes that i've been guilty of making with spy movies which we're sort of trying to reinvent and then there's a whole series of books planned and so this movie. I mean, as I said, I don't want to spoil at all, but I sort of like the idea of the book, but also the idea of showing

an author, writing the book, and it just inspired a whole lot of, a lot of just meta movie universe, sort of not, you know, not, I didn't want to say metaverse, because that's a whole other thing. But it, I sort of like, I love the idea of what would

happen if J.K. Rowling met a wizard and was real. and so we sort of ended up and book four which is the movies based around was the one that would work for it so book one is being published but book one is

you know you have to listen Mr Lucas was clever enough to start Star Wars at episode four so why not us so there was a whole thing about book four a meta universe in the sense of having fun with reinventing what the cliches of what spies are all about. And then you guys, you know, you'll read book one, which I hope to actually shoot next. So you jump back to book one.

Book one. Yes. There is a scene of book one in the movie. Okay. I feel like this is one of those movies where it's like almost easier just to watch the damn footage than to talk about what it is. Which I hope. By the way, that's the whole point of movies. Of course.

So that would be good. So, yes. And the thing I can say, I am excited about with Argal as the trailer, to Universal's credit, I said you can only use the first 28 minutes of the film. And they stuck to those rules. So it isn't, you know, everyone goes,

oh, the trailer's all the good bits in. I'm like, you guys have seen nothing yet. I love it. Okay, so let's talk, there's a bunch of things you said there that I want to jump off of. He described it as a love letter to 80s action movies. Were there filmmakers in particular that you...

Zemeckis. Zemeckis is the guy. Romancing the Stone, of course. Remancing the stone, back to the future. Those, you know, blockbusters with heart and a wink. Is that the kind of thing then, like, to key your amazing cast in, you're like, do you show the movies? Is that helpful? To be like, this is what we're going for?

No, no. It's on the page. They can get it. It should be on the page. or they will have it explained to them on the set if they don't understand what it is. I want to talk a little bit about your cast. We'll get to Cabell in a second

because I know you have a bit of history there, but I love seeing, I mean, Sam Rockwell is one of my spirit animals obsessed with him. And I know this is only just the first 28 minutes, so I don't know if he is your lead action guy or just a part of it, but to see him in that context, even from the trailer, and you have a long history of this, of course, of kind of putting actors

we don't necessarily associate with action. Yes. Putting them through their paces and making them into action stars. So where in the spectrum is Rockwell from like the Colin Firth to the Henry Cavill level of action. I'm not like, I've got to say, where in the spectrum is, is, is, he has his own rainbow. And, um, uh, so one of the themes of, of the film,

it's not in the book. That's what I'm saying. That's where it's sort of interesting. is the world of espionage and how it's portrayed is, whether it's Kingsman or Bond, we have this idea of what spies are. And then you have the La Cary version of what spies are.

And I thought, well, Le Cary is quite serious, in fact, very serious. Why don't I do a mashup of a Le Cary style spy film, a Kingsman style spy film, but the two, balance each other and create a new type of genre. How does that relate just in terms of the Rockwell of it all? Well, Rockwell is more LeCarrie-ish.

I see. So he's more Alec Guinness, sort of smile these people, where he is, you know, Rockwell can walk in a room, and I love him dearly, but you're not going to notice him. Yeah. All right. Henry Cavill will walk in a room, and you're going to notice Henry. Yes. And if you're a spy, you want to be the real spy, you don't want to be noticed.

That makes sense. So Rockwell actually is a proper suit. super spy, well, you know, Henry would have a... Our imagined version. Yes, exactly. So I know you go back with Henry. And I'll say the difference between Hollywood or not. So I'm sorry, guys, but I'm going to go for it now.

I'm warming up. So if Hollywood had made this movie, they would have cast Brad Pitt as the super spy, you know, and then they would have thought it would be great to cast... Tom Cruise is the other one. Tom Cruise as the other one and go, hey, you need that contrast. You need the contrast and the reality of both worlds. And that's where Hollywood makes it wrong because they would think that's Pitt and Cruz definite hit. But when the movie doesn't actually make any sense and the audience go, nah.

So you and Cab will go back to Stardust, of course, relatively early in his career. Yeah, Humphrey. Was it clear to you that he had the stuff to be, you know, whether it was literally Superman, but like play those kind of parts man from uncle superman oh definitely I mean I cheered when he got cast as a Superman because he was the poor guy had been down to the number two on so many franchises and I think he was even beginning to doubt that it was going to happen so and he's actually blossoming as well I mean I you know when you see him in the he's so good in the film and he's lovely to work with he's a gentleman and

big fan big fan of Henry do you share his love of painting Warhammer figurines? Are you as big a nerd as Henry Cavill? We build computers together. Oh, there you go. Yeah, we don't. Okay. All right, no, no. He's got different tastes when it comes to that stuff.

Goodbye, summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late, summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme.

Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos' Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the L.A. Times.

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Learn more and subscribe today over at lorepodcast.com. Okay, so since we do have a little bit of the luxury of time, give me a sense of sort of how your filmmaking loves developed as a kid. Like, did you have one specific influence in your life that you can point to that introduced you to movies? Did you find movies and filmmakers on your own? Yeah, I mean, I'm not as, I mean, I know a lot of directors love to talk about the craft and I'm like, I just watch films and make them.

I don't think it through as much as, I mean, no offense to what they do. What they do is brilliant, and I learned from them, but by osmosis, more than studying it. But when I, I think I fell in love, I mean, it's such a cliche, and now I'm at the age where everyone probably answered this question in the same way. But, you know, as a kid, I used to go to the cinema. to like the Disney, there's a Disney cinema in St. Martin's Lane, and it was always Disney films, and I was like, yeah, they're okay. And then I saw Star Wars, Superman, and Raiders of Lost Ark all in one year, and that was it. Then I went, no, this is the sort of movies I want to

watch. Not, I was never think I want to make, but I wanted to watch. And that's what I've always, you know, I can talk to you more about blockbusters and commercial movies. If you ask me about Godard or something, I wouldn't know who he is. Part of that he was a film critic, which I thought was interesting. That was the only thing about him I was intrigued about. Obviously, in the early part of your career, you spend it as a producer working obviously a lot

with Guy Ritchie early on. Did you happen in your head? I guess I'm trying to understand the circumstances by which you became a director. I've heard you, whether joke or be serious and say, basically, you want to be a director because you saw sort of like the things that you couldn't stand other people doing.

Not a joke. No, no, it's deadly serious. Yeah, okay, so I like Guy taught me so much by demystifying the whole process of directing, right? And it sounds crazy, but when you make a movie, it's literally you need a script, camera and actors. So it's, and there's only X amount of places you can put a camera and X amount of lenses. So it's not, I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not as complicated as people like to make it sound, right? And you can look at kids making great stuff on their iPhones. So, you know, it's, it's, um, so I, but I had no aspiration ever to direct at all.

And then after working with Guy, we developed layer cake for Guy. Right. And he decided not to direct it. And it was, it was, it was, Guy did the usual Ritchie comment of, well, there's no one in the world who could direct this as well as me. So you should just bin it. And we done a lot of work on the script. And I was really passionate about. And it was an odd moment where John Connolly or J.J. Connolly said to me, I said, look, I've got bad news, guys, not directing it.

And Connolly was like, well, I've only met guy once. I spent every day with you working on the script. You should do it. And I was like, I don't think that's going to happen. And then that night, I saw my wife, and my wife said the same thing to me. She said, you should do it. And I was nervous because I was just thinking that was ruined my, there's nothing worse if you're a producer and you have a go directing and it's terrible than you've lost all respect of any other director. That's just I think you're a

back seat wannabe director. And I, but something in my gut was saying it might, you know, you should do it and and but when I made that movie, I knew nothing. I mean, the first day of filming I remember looking through the lens,

seeing Daniel and I just cat, without thinking, looked up to and went, oh, I've never done, I've never looked through a lens before. And then then look back down. All I saw is sheer horror on Daniel's face. I was going to say, that's the last thing an actor, anybody on a crew wants to look him down. And I was like, I'll, don't worry. Yeah, everyone's like, that's the director that just said that? Yeah, we feel really good.

Yeah, yeah. And yet, Laircake turns out phenomenally well and is, he boosts Daniel Curley. We all know this. Daniel Craig turns into a star. He gets bond off of it. Yeah. Is the word true? Did you also get Bond off of it?

I kind of haven't been wrong. You thought you were the director of Casino for a day. So, yeah, it was a really weird time when I got a phone call, the powers of the old MGM saw layer cake, hadn't come out, and the broccoli's saw it. And I got a phone call saying, would you be interested in meeting about? about doing Casino Royale. And I was like, oh my God, yes, I would. So I had this, I read the book again, and went, met with them.

We all gone on, actually, I thought really, really well. And then welcome to Hollywood. I get a phone call from MGM saying, you've got the gig, don't tell anyone. I'm like, okay, I can get it. And they said, you're then gonna go meet Eon and they're gonna tell you, but you have, and so we go for this meeting

and I'm pretending that I don't know. And all I'm thinking is, come on, can we cut to the chase? I'm ready to go. and ironically we talked about who and I'd cast and I said what about Daniel and they were like we're not sure about Daniel and I was like okay um but and then so MGM told me I had it and then I had the lunch had the meetings and at the end of it I wasn't offered it so I went home thoroughly confused then I rang up um the chairman of MGM and I said what's going on and they went ah we spoke too soon you ain't got it and we're going to cast Daniel I was like oh okay did you ever get any clarity did you ever talk to Barbara and company and be like what did I did I say something wrong at lunch did I probably said so many things wrong at lunch that I killed myself I think back then I was naive of you know my skill set was making

movies for a very small amount of money sure so I do think I I was doubting the the time that they wanted to make the movie in and I kept saying I don't think there's enough time in in post and and because I was you know I right I They wanted to hear the filmmaker say, like, absolutely whatever. Well, I didn't know the concept of throwing money at problems. Right. That's why X-Men 3 I pulled out of it as well, because I was looking at, I knew that the schedule, everything was impossible

if they wanted to stick to the budget, which that was my, I was a producer, turn director. So I learned later that budget and schedule is totally irrelevant to these guys. They have a fake one that they will say they're intending to make. And then it comes in at some ridiculous number. that's that but that wasn't back then that was not the way i uh i made film i still don't make it like that but i but i you know i i try to respect budgets still so where are you at on bond now because you you know as well as i do that your name always comes around for bond and currently

they are about to do their next reboot and how do you know are they i don't know i actually don't know so there is about as much chance no i would say i would i think i've got more more chance being cast as Bond as directing Bond. Seriously? Yeah. Why do you say that? Ask them. They're not keen on me.

That's a shame. Yeah. If things ever shifted, do you haven't, like, do you know what you do with Bond? Yes. You'd be a little hint? No. Would you go period? No, you know, Kingsman is my bond.

My, my, because obviously Kingsman was a huge, huge influence. So everything I do in Kingsman, I would have done on Bond. Got it. Got it. we don't have time to go into every film obviously you do start us you do kickass you do honestly first class I think is my favorite of the X-Men film what you guys did with it

that's got a huge Bondi-esque absolutely I mean yeah so so how much freedom did you is first class feel as much your film you're working within a big studio a big IP that they have a lot of interest in

what percentage would you say that's your film the one you wanted to see on the screen first class about 98% I mean, where first class was a sort of a unique time was, one, I'd quit X3, right? So they knew when I, and I was literally told by Rothman and X amount of people, you'll never work in this town again. You do not walk off an X-Men movie.

You're an arrogant idiot. You've only done one film as a director. What are you doing? And I walked off X-Men. I mean, it's a long story, but there was a lot of lies. and there was, I was naive because I didn't realize they actually would have given me

much more time and more money to solve it. But, and I was, just wasn't comfortable with, I mean, some of the lies that these other, not Rothman, which other, which I turned to Tom Rothman about later, and it was, I mean, total lies about casting and the way they were dealing with other actors.

I mean, it was so bad, I found a script called the Halley Barry draft, and I was like, wow, what is this because it's starting off in Ethiopia with with storm creating rain to and I'm like are we doing this and they're like no no don't worry once she signed on that's going in the bin and then that when they soon as they said that to me I was like wow if you're going to do that to an Oscar winning actress I'm fucked so I literally got on the got a cab went to the went home and then like where are you I'm home in

London not coming back so they weren't happy about that then this will kick ass and actually Emma Watts and Tom said look we actually really want to do it differently would you know they didn't have a script they want they said you got 10 months from no script to we want it in the cinema but now I knew oh my God they'll give me the the machine yeah and the money money so I was like okay

let's do it but because we only had 10 months Rothman became a partner and not many people everyone loves to slag Tom off because he I mean He's a very loud, opinionated guy, but he's clever underneath it all. And once you navigate it and talk, sometimes louder back to him, but you construct arguments with Tom and he listens.

He's a lawyer deep down. And I kept, and I had this, my secret weapon, I was like, okay, we can do it your way, Tom, but we'll miss a release date. And then he back off very quickly. And to his credit, when he was seen, the cut scenes and he he he's not he he loves film underneath the the the bluster should say um and again and brother he's a guy that really identifies problems

brilliantly um right not great solutions and i've told that to his face but really good at knowing what the public wants and what they won't like you um you move on to you don't do days of future past you do kingsman yeah um which i didn't do days of future passed because welcome to Hollywood I wasn't I had to wait for Brian Singer to decide whether he wanted to do it and no one had told me so I worked on the script right got it all the whole thing ready and then they're like well we want you to do it but Brian's got first bite at it and I was like you know what I'm gonna go off and create my own franchise I don't like all this these

secrets and yeah and plain contracts and yeah so I was like good luck have fun with it well it clearly worked out Kingsman you I've gone to know Taron a lot over the years and what a gem and obviously the casting of that is is somewhat well known and he's talked to me about this he said to me that initially Aaron was maybe on your mind for egg Z I've heard that boyega was close boy ago close Daniel Kalula very close the chemistry between Kalula and Firth was unbelievable I totally forgot about Aaron he what I mean yeah Aaron was considered I met with him and then Taryn came in and just I knew it You know, casting is sort of, again,

if I do it very with my gut and my eyes, and you see it, and you go, that kid or that lady or the guy, whatever it is, is got what I'm looking for. You guys have a very special thing going, obviously. You produced a bunch of stuff he's been in as well. He has absolute affection for you. When I did an event with him last year,

I asked him about working with you, and he said with a big grin on his face, I love him, but he's a fucking nightmare. I think he was, he seems. give you the exact same answer about him i was going to say so what would you say i mean he must have been very green on that set did you have to he was really green but he didn't behave like he was green okay so he's very opinionated he thinks he knows everything and you know i have to bash that out of him right and then but we we've actually come to a place where

ironically we we could we were the different end of the spectrum from life and um views and life and movies and you know so we're like we're like still we've battered each other and become stronger my sense is like you know there are different ways to handle actors and coax great performances out of them is that you're not one to coddle an actor yeah is that fair to say like what's your attitude about working with actors what's your most frequent direction would you say on a set to an actor has it evolved um I tend to, that's why casting is so important, because if you cast the right actor for the role,

you know, I'm just dialing up a little bit, shading it, sometimes explaining. I think one of the main things with actors is reminding them where it is in the film and what's happening, because sometimes I think, oh, well, let's do this, this would be a great idea. And you're like, well, no, because in 45 scenes later, this character can't, will have to be written out.

So, but I, yeah, yeah, As I said, if you cast it right, it's not as hard to draw out performances because I'm not really that I'm not a, my job isn't to be an acting coach. It's to be a director. So I, you know, I'm not going to teach a stunt man how to kick someone or hire the best people. Put them around you. Yeah. So high, you know, cast it right. That makes your job a lot easier. Did you take it personally when Tarant didn't get the Oscar nom for Rock? furious actually I genuinely believe that and then when Austin Butler as well I'm like okay what happened here that Taryn no offense to Austin and and Rami they both did brilliantly but I think what Taryn did was just as good let's say I'll be polite as what they did and and I also think the fact he was singing and you know Rami wasn't I just thought that took it to another level and I still don't understand what happened there. And he's never going to get a role as good as that either.

That's what's sad about it. So the association with Taryn continues producing Tetris another find a new side of Taryn we haven't seen. Yeah. Is he always on your mind? How did he come to mind in terms of putting this one together? Is it Taryn first or Tetris first? That was Tetris first.

And when I read the script to Tetris, I was like, did this really happen? And then I was like, oh, it did. And then lockdown happened and, you know, I spoke to Taran a lot during lockdown and I went, look, I don't know why, but for some reasons, movies have been deemed so important. We're allowed to make films during, during lockdown. But let's go off and make a movie. And I didn't want to direct it. And I said, Taryn, I'll be there.

I'll look after after you. And I think it could be a really good for you to playing. I knew he can pull off a moustache. So, yeah, so Tetris was, yeah, I'm proud of it. It's a good film, good movie. Yeah, I mean, the breadth of material he's done in his young career, whether it's, you know, Eddie the Eagle. These are transformed again.

Like, there you go. It takes a special kind of actor to rock a good mustache. Yes. And we're just getting started with him, which is the most exciting part. Decades of great work to come. Yeah, and with him, he, yeah, he's got a lot more. a lot more to show.

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and get up to $2,400 in value in your first 13 months. Terms and conditions apply. Visit bemo.com slash the iPorter to learn more. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to election day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances. It can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with.

I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News. And every morning my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So, kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News, because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. We do Golden Circle, continue to cast the hell out of it, including Pedro, who was. not really much on people's radar quite yet not pedro couldn't believe i he kept saying he's sure you've given me the role i was like you've got it he's like i never get the rolls i'm older now this is it's never going to happen for me like it will it will and it has it did it did

certainly did around this time too okay i want to correct the war or not it was said that you were offered a man of steel sequel like were you actually no what's the story behind superman so i with mark i'm a superman not and so is Mark Miller and Mark and I sat down and we plotted out a three picture deal or not deal trilogy film and pitched it to Warner's and this is after Man of Steel had come out already no it's before Man of Steel okay that's what I'm saying it's so weird so we pitched the the how to do a trilogy of Superman movies they warners said they weren't interested and that's my that's as far as as it went that's the closest that ever came has come back around never

come back around. Again, I don't expect you to divulge everything, but what was the gist that what would you do with Superman that's different than what we've seen or what, or similar to the Donner films or what? Yeah, I think, I think Donna nailed it. And I think Wonder Woman worked very well because it was basically a Donna Superman film, but reimagined it as Wonder Woman. And yeah, I would have done it a modern version of, you know, of the Donner, And we wanted to do it. Our big idea was a twist that Krypton doesn't blow up.

It does eventually. Spoiler on the movie too. The dad was right. He just got his timing wrong. So when Superman's grown up, suddenly there's a mass exodus and then all hell breaks loose. And that was our idea.

Who was your main villain? Did you have? Brainiac, Zod. Zod and Brainiac. basically and Luther Luther. Luther was the main villain until Krypton explodes and then escalated, then you get some Kryptonians. Yeah, then it all goes, yeah, exactly. That was sort of the idea. I'm surprised, given your association with Henry that they wouldn't at least have a chat with you at some point about. No, I wonder, well, DC have reached out and Gunn and Peter, we've been

talking and they're great, but James, you know, he ring fenced. man. Yeah, the authority has been mentioned as something, but is that of interest to you? I never say never. At the moment, I'm very much enjoying creating my own things, because, as I said, I don't get all the tentacles of political madness, can't get hold of it. And I think guns, the franchise or D.C.'s in the best hands it's been in for a long time. So let's see what happens. As a friend and a collaborator with Taryn, should he do Wolverine? If he's offer the role? I think it'd be better as Lex Luther. I think it'd be an amazing Luther. He shouldn't be Wolverine. I don't think. Any particular reason why? I don't think he's

right for it. I think you've got to go more, really go back to what the comment. Hughes, brilliant, as Wolverine. Yeah. But I would go back to what the comic is, go really small little grizzly, tough guy. Bob Hoskins back in the day. Exactly. Right. Yeah. That's what I would do. I don't know who it is, But I think Hughes made it so iconic that if you go into that, you know, whoever's trying to do the Hugh version, they're bugged. And Taryn and Luther just because, I mean, we saw a little bit in Blackbird a little bit. Yeah, I think he would make an amazing, intelligent villain with depth. I love it.

Okay, so let's talk about some of the world building of both Argyle and where Kingsman's at. So Argyle, it sounds like full steam ahead. If the audience is there, you have passion for this material and there's... Yeah, yeah. If it's like anything, because I'm, my thing about Argyle or anything I do is, is, I think what's exciting about this summer is the studio being forced to realize that director is actually are quite an important part of making a movie. Imagine that, yeah.

And new IP is okay as well. Yes. And one of the reasons new IP doesn't work. because the studio just doesn't get behind them. I always say it's madness. You'll spend more money on a Harry Potter or a Superman advertising it when everyone knows what it is, but you do a new piece of IP.

That's what needs the push. And they don't spend the money, so no one's heard of it or knows what it is. And it's this sort of vicious circle of new IP never really breaking through. Yeah, it's pretty basic. You make a great quality product, and then you get enough of the audience

into the theater to spread the good word. But you have to spend a lot more money to get them in. Yes. right so and that and that goes against all their instincts or training so um but for me you know when i was a kid close encounters was new IP raiders was new IP these were all new you know we I wasn't um and actually the sequels remember always remain diminishing yeah because we were oh god they made another one um or you spread them out enough so um and I just like the challenge

of of launching new IP I think it's it's harder but it's it's more um It's more fun. And Argyle, as I said, we've got the book coming out, and we'd love to do the book next, and we have an Argyll 2 planned. So there is a universe, and what we're trying to do with Marv is sort of, you know, Marvel to superheroes. We want to be despise as well.

So we've got the Kingsman on the right, I'd say. Argyle's on the left, and then we've got an idea for something in the middle as well. And then you've got these sort of competing franchises in a galaxy that one day might meet. Oh, they might converge. Yeah, one day. You just drop that very subtly in the back in the end, wait.

Yeah. Oh, so you haven't, that's interesting. Yeah. Because, I mean, one of the things that we haven't said that is a little bit different is also, this is not R-rated material. This is fair to set. I mean, it's not. We haven't got it rated yet, so I'm intrigued.

I think it's not R-rated. But I think my mind, I'm probably more of a very strong PG-13 guy. So I'm hoping it's PG-13. Are you looking forward to potentially not? You've had some ratings fights over the years. You've had some issues, so hopefully this one will be a little bit more. This will be easier. It should be easier.

I mean, as I said, I designed it watching it with my daughters. So I've made it so they've watched the movie. Let's put it that way. They'll be my fiercest critics and guides on this one. And where are we at on Kingsman? Obviously, Tarrin's talked about this. You've talked about this, having a third film. We want to end the relationship, we want to end the relationship, well, not end the relationship, but conclude, should we say, the relationship with Harry and EGSI.

And it's 90% written. It's the issue I have right now is, while Hollywood is figuring itself out, I just want to know who my partner on it will be. So in the sense of distribution. And that's why we want to get Argyll finished, because I said we're planning the spy universe. So we have to pick, you know, I'm not, I can't distribute movies. So Kingsman isn't still necessarily absolutely with Fox. Oh, no, Kingsman's math. We have it all ourselves.

So you can do what you want with that and what we want to do with, you know, with Argyll. So I want to make sure you can't build a universe if you're at three different studios. So, you know, you're like Fox and Disney with X-Men and Spider-Man at Sony. Thank you. You know, it just creates problems. much better to... Well, especially if you want these to conversion. Yeah, if you want them to bring together.

And you want people that are protecting the assets, even when they're not making the asset. So that's one of the things Marves deciding at the moment. Is there still ambition? Because I know there have been a lot of other ideas in the Kingsman universe. There was talk of a statesman film or TV show. The idea is Kingsman from now on is the modern Kingsman will be for cinema and then the Kingsman.

The King's Man, the movie, the Kingsman, was meant to be a TV series, by the way. It really was, and then I got sort of dragged into making it as a film. But we've got, yeah, so we do want to do TV with it. I mean, it's a remarkable thing that you've been able to kind of create your own sandboxes with, you know, association with Mark Miller, et cetera, and to create these worlds. That being said, you know, we've talked about other IP that you've kind of dipped into, whether it's X-Men or forded with. You mentioned a film that was formative to you early on.

would you ever do Star Wars? Would that be tough to say no to? Yeah. Well, now not so much. It's been tainted a little bit. It's a little... Well, it's not just being tainted, and I'm not going to... Yeah, I'm not going to go there.

But I would say, for me, doing a Star Wars movie is to play with the characters that I loved. So if they said to me, we'll reboot... Do you want to reboot Star Wars and actually have Luke Skywalker, Solo, and Vader? And you do your version of it. Everyone would say you're an idiot to try, but that would excite me. Oh, my God.

You won't have a death wish. That's so scary. To even contemplate recasting? Yeah, why not? Bond. Do you mind Bond? That's true. That's true.

You know, you asked me who's going to play the next Wolverine. That's true. Why are these characters so hallowed that from 77, you can't redo it for a new audience? And that's the story. I mean, Star Wars is the Skywalker family. Yeah. All right. And that's where I think they've gone wrong because they've,

forgot that it's and they're done brilliantly in the TV but it needs an epic new film and that's what I would do I go right everyone's going to go bat shit crazy but let's bring it on because if you want a new generation

make the movie for them and the old generation can hopefully make it well enough that they go okay I'm enjoying it yeah is there a trend in movies you see on the screen less about kind of like what the studios are doing we've talked about sort of why it's compromised product

I hate calling it product compromising films, but like, you know, you've made your bones in great action, a lot of great action. Are you sensitive to as someone that grew up in the 80s and saw all sorts of action? Like, I have a very high bar at this point, and I love your stuff.

I love, like, the John Wick stuff and mission, but besides that stuff, 90% of the action I see now is crap, and I can't stand it. Are you sensitive to that as a, like, what are your pet peeves, your loves, your hates in modern adventure action filmmaking?

Would you say? When the action isn't telling a story, that's when I get bored. And, you know, even if you look at the Marvel movies, the action is now in Marvel films. You could literally intercut seven Marvel movies together in the action sequences, and you wouldn't know that you're intercutting

between the only thing that gives it away would be the costume, but not the style, not the punch, and there's no story. They're just, everyone's just hitting each other, or shooting each other or blowing things up. So I'm always, all I care about with action is, is it telling a story? Is it visually doing something we haven't seen before?

So there are two sequences in the Argyle that you will go, never seen that before. And I'm, which I'm proud of. It's getting hard. Yes. What else can we do that's a surprise an audience? But there are two very, very surprise. And by the way, they're very marmite.

A lot of people have, when we've tested, of the movie, going, you know, what is your favorite scene? X action. What is the scene you most hate? The same X. Um, which then I get excited because I'm, I'm, because I think it's, it's it's happening. There's going to be, you know, people, I want to make movies that be either love or hate, but if they go, yeah, it was all right. Then number, you know, five out of ten I'm not interested in. I'm like, you know, uh, let's, let's wrap on this. We talked a lot about your your casting acumen over the years. Um, what's the one you're proud of stuff? You're, a discovery when you had to fight for the studio tooth and nail said no this is not the person

you know whether it's taran jennifer warrants i know wasn't necessarily an easy that wasn't easy no um um do you know i'm sort of proud of every all of them i think it's really um because they've ever made a mistake have you ever cast the wrong person in a role and felt like oh fuck where my instincts here what happened i did it once and they and i fired them the second day and recast. I'm not just there it is. Because I realize the movie is not going to work. And I've fired quite a few actors during rehearsals as well.

But it's really nice when you see people that are desperate to have a career as an actor and then they go on and become movie stars. And yeah, it's nice. I mean, it's, um, they're, um, yeah, some of them, I mean, yeah, I, I, I, I'm, they've all been fantastic. I've been very lucky with the actors. And it makes you look good. And it's really easy for me as well, because they don't, I don't have to do with all the, the

ego crap. And they tend not, when I see them, dial that up with me. Right. You knew them when and you, yeah, exactly. So, um, but also, I also feel with movies, when you cast people that you don't know them, They really are that character, you know. So, like, for me, Luke Skywalker is Luke Skywalker. It was never, oh, Mark Hamill's doing a great performance.

You're like, that's just Luke Skywalker up there. So I do, it is hard, the more famous these stars become that they don't, it's hard for them to really be that character. Sure. Because you're just going, oh, X movie stars doing a great performance, but it's, it's, but they are doing a performance. So there is something about, I try to, I always like it when the movie is the star. I think, and they last as well, longer.

Well, I'm very excited to see, this is one of those rare conversations where we have a little bit of a road to Argyle. It's February 2nd, it comes out. I love the early stuff we've seen. You literally have like cast like my all-star team of actors. Like this is just an amazing assembly of talent. And I know the combo of that and your direction

is going to turn into something fantastic. Good luck to the finish line, getting a good rating, getting the audience, in theaters. Touch wood. And really touch wood. Yeah, exactly. And enjoy your Comic-Con man.

And again, seriously, I'm such a fan, and I appreciate you, you and Team Vaughn trusting me with this long conversation, which I know is not necessarily something you've done a lot of. So it means a lot. Well, I would say the other positioning we're trying to do in Argyle is it's the perfect date movie. Okay. It really is the perfect date movie.

That, I think, yeah, I'm not going to get into it to pull why, but it. It's a good date movie. The wife is already in. This is her cup of tea. So you'll get at least two tickets out of me. Please do. Are you watching the thing tonight today? I'll be there, of course.

You'll see a scene which you can ask me afterwards. Then you'll go, oh, I'm really beginning to understand this. Excellent. And the fact that I've only seen portions from the first 28 minutes, very excited, man. Thank you again, truly. Well, thank you. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

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