Happy Sad Confused - Michael Douglas

Episode Date: October 19, 2026

The one and only Michael Douglas joins the podcast. Michael bares all in his new memoir, ONE HELLUVA RIDE, and he sits down with Josh to share an even more in-depth look at the book’s revelations–plus a few that didn’t make it to the page. From telling his father, Kirk Douglas, that he wanted to act, to getting pushed by Oliver Stone on the set of WALL STREET, to an account of what it was like to film intimate scenes before an intimacy coordinator became the standard, to why he decided to do ANT-MAN, this episode is a treat for anyone who’s resonated with Michael’s prolific life.  Recorded at the 92nd Street Y SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/happy #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at no frills.ca. For most of the history of professional sports, there was a wall between the game and gambling. Then suddenly it was everywhere. Ontario is all in on sports bat. Make every moment more with band do.

But that wasn't supposed to increase. include the players themselves. For records for, Jonté Porter is under NBA investigation. Athletes are the perfect gamblers. Understood. The Big Bet. Available now on Spotify. Did Catherine, your lovely wife,

did she know everything? All of these stories going? I'll be home to ask her because she just got the book two days ago and I've told her this was all, as I say, B.C. before Catherine. Prepare your ears, humans.

Happy, sad, confused begins. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, Michael Douglas, an absolute Hollywood icon talking about his life, his career, his new memoir, and more. Thanks, guys, as always,

for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Spotify, wherever you're doing it. I don't care. Just hit the subscribe button. Do me a solid. Also, if you like what I do, check out our Patreon.

Patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused, early access to every single episode, autographed merch, posters, access to our live events, and much, much more helping us over there, helps us make more over here. I don't know if you guys have been listening or watching the podcast for a long time, if you're recent subscribers, but we're on a really good run. I'm really, I can't say enough about the level of guests. We've had on lately. Ben Affleck was an all-timer. A lot of attention for that one. But yeah, some really good stuff. And this is another one like that. Michael Douglas had never

been on the podcast. This kind of came around kind of honestly at the last second. He was doing a 90 Second Street Y event and I was invited to host this. And it was such an honor because, look, of people of a certain age, we all grew up with Michael Douglas. Wall Street, basic instinct, Mancing the Stone. The list goes on and on. He produced one flew over the cuckoo's nest. He's been a star for decades. He, of course, came from stardom.

His dad was Kirk Douglas, Spartacus himself. And he has laid it all out there in a new memoir. It's called One Hell of a Ride. I've read the whole thing. I absolutely tore through it. It's a great read. Tons of amazing stories in there. And this was a real treat.

We welcomed him to the 92nd Street Live for a live event. This was taped on the publication day of One Hell of a Ride. So it was a real honor to kind of have this moment with Michael as the book was coming out into the public, as it was getting a ton of attention. It's still getting a ton of attention. A lot of like, there's a lot of like sort of salacious kind of gossipy things in the book, like about, you know, his relationships. He's very open and honest about, you know, his substance abuse issues. his affairs with, you know, the likes of Gene Triplehorn and Kathleen Turner, his troubles with his marriage. But to be honest, for me, as a geek, as a movie lover, it's all about the movies and the stories. So we really concentrate most of this conversation on that stuff, because that's what I care about. I wanted the stories about Wall Street and Basic Instinct and Oliver Stone and Danny DeVito

and all that cool stuff. So that's all in here. He's an absolute icon. I'm thrilled he finally came on the podcast, and this was the perfect time to support his new memoir. Excuse me. All right. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sag Confused.

Today on the show, we don't throw this word around lightly. He's an icon. Michael Douglas is on the show talking about his memoir, his life, his career. It's all there. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember, hit that subscribe button on YouTube on Spotify. However, you're doing it. Up to you.

And remember, if you like what. what I do, check out our Patreon. Patreon.com slash happy, say, confused. We give early access to every single episode. Bonus materials when we can. You hear those New York sirens? That's ambiance. You don't get that on smart list, guys.

But yeah, check out the Patreon. Patreon.com slash happy, say it confused. Honestly, supporting us over there really does help us make more stuff over here. And I have to say, I am so, so, so proud of the conversations we've been having the level of guests we've been having. one banger after another. James McAvoy, Ben Affleck and all-timer of a guest. Coming up soon, some really big ones. John Goodman is coming up on the show. We've taped that already. Another all-timer. We're just, we're in a groove. So I hope you guys are enjoying what we're doing

over here. And this episode is a big one for me. You know, people of a certain age, I think we all came up loving and adoring Michael Douglas movies. I mean, everything. Basically, against thing, falling down Wall Street, romancing the stone. I mean, in the late 80s, 90s, he was as big as you got. It was like him and Harrison Ford, basically, as leading men. He had a run. He had an amazing run. And he's been, like, prolific pretty consistently through the decades. He's lived quite a life. It's all there in his new memoir, one hell of a ride. I highly recommend the book. I tore through it. Absolutely adored it. It's got all the stories. It's got the kind of gossipy stuff, if you like that kind of thing, like he's open about his troubles, his substance

abuse issues, his marital problems, the affairs he had with some notable co-stars. For me, though, honestly, it's mostly about the movie stories, and there are tons in there. And that's what this conversation really covers. It's those big major movie moments in his life that I just wanted the stories from. He'd never done the podcast before, so I had to go there with him for this. And this was a treat. This was a live event in New York City at 92nd Street Y. This was taped on the publication day of One Hell of a Ride. So it was like, honestly, a big honor for me, not only to have Michael on the show,

but to kind of like really usher in this book into the world. It's gotten a ton of headlines. Maybe you've seen it all over the internet, all over your Instagram feed. It's certainly all over mine. But maybe you haven't actually had a chance to sit down and listen or watch the conversations with him. And this is a really good one. So I hope you guys check it out.

I take you now to a live event taped at the 92nd Street Y. It's me and Michael Douglas. Enjoy. Hello, everybody. Well, again, welcome to the 90 Second Street Y. You are in for a treat tonight. My name is Josh Horowitz. I host a podcast called Happy Sack and Fused.

And whether you know it or not, you're inside of it right now. I apologize. No, this is like such a special treat for me. This gentleman has never been. on my podcast. He's a regular here at the 92nd Street Y. He's been here before, but never for an occasion like this. To know and love film and TV for the last five decades is to know and love Michael Douglas. He is an absolute legend. He's one of the greats, one of the great actors, one of the great movie stars, one of the great producers, and it's all there in this remarkable

memoir. One hell of a ride. It is also one hell of a read. Let me tell you that. I very much enjoyed this. You were going to absolutely adieu. And today is the publication day. He's celebrating it with us. So please make him feel welcome, everybody. The legend that is, Mr. Michael, Douglas, everybody. Come on out, sir. You don't have stage fright anymore, do you? Because back in the day, Michael used to have stage fright. Is that true? Yes, well, that was very true back in the day, but this might just do it again. But yeah, when I first started at University of California, Santa Barbara, my first performances,

I had a waste basket offstage and every time just before I go on. Should we get one just in case tonight? No, we'll be all right. We got this. Congratulations, sir. I hope you feel the love tonight and I hope you feel the love out there. I feel like my internet algorithm is all Michael Douglas right now. You are everywhere.

This book is everywhere. Today is the publication day, so congratulations. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. And Josh, thank you so much for doing this and for all of you showing up. I really appreciate it. It's nice to see you out tonight.

Thank you. It is a remarkable story. And I have to say, like, look, you've done a lot of press tours in your career and you've talked a lot about films, but this is a really open and exposing moment, I would imagine, for you. Does it feel like you're kind of putting yourself out there in a different way than you ever have before? Oh, yeah. Very much so.

You know, it's one thing to have a character in a film. But when you make the decision to tell a story, a personal story about yourself, it's uncomfortable, it's nervous. I like to think that my films have always been most of them trying to be as truthful as possible. and I am fascinated with that gray area, the good and the bad and somebody, and I certainly have seen it in myself. So, yeah, it was a very kind of nervous feeling over the past 18 months as it's coming together,

and I'm quite honestly, have been blown away. We've been getting a lot of really good reviews and response to being open about being a bad one, Boy. We'll talk about the good than bad and the ugly tonight. But let me read actually an excerpt from one of those reviews. The New York Times absolutely gave you a rave. They said, quote, some celebrity memoir skate over the good stuff offering a highlight reel more than an in-depth feature. One hell of a ride is a blockbuster, intimate and uncensored, worthy of a bucket of popcorn with extra butter. New York Times.

Is that as meaningful a review as you've ever gotten? Were you the kind of person that felt the reviews the good and the bad over your career? I haven't looked at closely to the films, reviews over a period of time, but when it came to a book, and I must say when I saw that, yes, such a feeling because you're not sure. You really aren't. And you share things that are uncomfortable

and except who you are, but I guess that's the privilege you get when you get into your 80s. Yeah. So this book, so here's the cover, for those that can see. And then here's the back. This is Michael from another day.

It's a before and after. What would you say to the guy on the back? What do you remember? What do you miss about that guy? What would you say to that guy? It's a good-looking smile. I wish he was as relaxed as that. No, I had, I don't know how I was able to keep up with it

because somebody told me very early in my acting career said the camera can tell when you're lying. So the camera, it'll tell when you're lying. I used to get so, wow, you know. So I had this sort of method acted time where I was trying to wipe the character of the makeup off your face and feel it like what you read.

But you can't do that all the time. So it really wasn't until, I think, as far as a fatal attraction. I said, okay, here's the character. Let me start the character. And I said, okay, he's a lawyer in New York. Okay, I can be a lawyer in New York. He's married.

He has. He's an adult who are, yeah. Yeah, you know. And so I said, well, wait a minute. And then this moment came over me. They said, acting is all about lying. It's not so it's about lying. It's convincing you or an audience that you're telling the truth.

when you're telling a lie. And once I understood that, it really freed me up so much more in my acting. You also, like Needless to say, you had an absolute icon in your house to live up to. I mean, Kirk Douglas, one of the all-time greats. And, I mean, that hangs over your life and career, your career, especially as you were starting out, I would imagine.

Was he encouraging of you being an actor? As I understand that, like, the first performances, he wasn't necessarily super encouraging of what he saw. first. No. Well, he came up, God bless him. I grew up, my mother and father got separated when I was five, and I grew up in the East Coast with my mother, and my father was on the, on the, the West Coast, and I went to sort of private school, went to Allen Stevenson here in New York, and then later I went to Choate, and it was all, you know, all boys, you know, this is 19, late 50s, early 60s, and so when they came to the end of Chote

where I was in a go and I was pretty tight you know I was pretty tight and you go when do you remember you go to your your high school college counselor and they always reminded me like travel agents you know they had these brochures you'd go through and you'd sit there and they'd go through the brochures

and I went to it was one way by me stop and they pull this out no Ivy League buildings nothing and it said, campus by the sea. And then I had him a cover, and then there was this guy carrying a surfboard, and he had two girls next to him in two-piece bathing suits.

You were from back east in 1963. You hadn't seen a two-piece bathing suit. So I said, I want to go there. So it was Santa Barbara. So, of course, Dad was wonderful because Dad thought, my son wants to be close to me. I'm about to decide to me. He's close.

And so I got out there, and I mentioned it was the biggest, you know, change of my life. It was the early 60s. It was a very exciting time on the West Coast. UC system, the UC system was exploding. It was growing very fast, great people. San Francisco, the whole scene there.

And within about a year and a half, I went from being a prep. a hippie with all of the things. And then I'm enjoying my hippie life. And then I got called in the second year, a college counselor. I said, you've got to declare a major. I go, what? So you've got to declare, you got a major in something.

You can't just keep taking general education courses. So I don't know, man. And I said, theater. You know, I figured theater. my mother was an actress, my father, that was going to be the easiest thing to do, so I did flick theater. And then started that,

and then I never acted before my life. And so the first show came up was, I got a messenger speech and much ado about nothing. And I remember my entrance in the show was down an aisle, and I came down the aisle as the messenger, and sure enough,

I had a stop. right by my father, and they talked me how to stand. You know, they showed me how to stand the right way. I ran, and I said, my lord. And then I went, Yadda, you say, I fernig, something. And I ran out, and he said, what did he say? What did he say?

And dad came backstage afterwards. He said, Michael, you were terrible. And I think, to answer your question, John, I think he was so relieved. He said, well, I don't have to worry about this guy becoming an actor. Little did he know. I don't have to. So I was a grinder, you know.

I can't say it came to me naturally, and I had a lot of stage fright. I don't know why I used to do it. He used to fight to get out there, but by the end of school I left and dad came to see a play and said, son, you were good. More Happy Say and Confused coming up. Unlock on Limited Free Grocery Delivery with PC Express, Power. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month.

Learn more at no frills.ca. For most of the history of professional sports, there was a wall between the game and gambling. Then suddenly it was everywhere. Ontario is all in on sports bat. Make every moment more with fan do. But that wasn't supposed to include the players themselves. For records for, Jonté Porter is under NBA investigation. Athletes are the perfect gamblers.

Understood. The Big Bet. Available now on Spotify. And of course the first big break, I guess, was Streets of San Francisco, right? Working with the great Carl Malden. And so you come off of that, the great experience, which is a number of years, yes. Was it, I mean, at that time, transferring from a TV star to a film star was not the way to do it. That very rarely happened.

Did you feel, was it as much better? baggage being a TV star is having that Kirk Douglas attached to your name? Did you feel that weight going into audition rooms and trying to jump start a film career? Well, you got to remember after I left streets of San Francisco to produce Cuckoo's Nest, one of the Cuckus Nest, which is a whole story. And mind, you have to help me, Josh, with time. No, we're going to keep you here for five hours. They didn't tell you that? I guess, I don't know you all know this story, but I, I, on cuckoo's nest, but my father had just done Spartacus, and he had a production company, and he found in Galilee, this book by Ken Casey called Wonderful Over the Cuckoo's Nest,

and he acquired the rights, and he made it into a play by Dale Wattison and wrote the play, and he came back to New York at his height right after Spartacus to play R.P. Mc Murphy, the play. The play didn't work. It didn't happen for whatever. reasons it was maybe ahead of its time. And his idea was originally that it would work out, that he would develop and do it in a picture. It didn't work out. And then for many years, he tried to develop it, and then he decided he was going to sell it. And by that time, I had actually read the book in my second year of English, classic American novels, and was in my episodic television. The quick jump was I did five movies. I did five movies.

in a row that were turkeys. All turkey. So I was in episodic television doing that. Streets came up. And I said to Dad, I just had me in the office, and I saw that he was selling it. And I said, please don't stand. It's a great story. Don't sell it. Look, give me a chance.

Let me run with it. I'm trying to get you the part. We'll get production together with the picture. And he said, okay, son. And you're just in your mid-20s here, right? This is... 23, 24. That's crazy. Right? So he said, okay, so I'll give you a shot, forgive it for a year.

So I'm up and I go through his files about who showed any interest. And I find this guy, Saul Zanz, who's in Berkeley, California, owns fantasy records as a jazz label, a milestone prestige. But the one thing he had is he just signed a rock group called the Galiwags. So he hired this group called the Goliwogs. So we got to change your names. So they changed their names to Creedence Clearwater Revival. So we had all these jazz labels on one side,

but Creedence is what played for Cuckoo's Nest. And so anyway, I got in contact with him, and he's in Berkeley, California. I'm shooting the series in San Francisco, and we figure out what had happened. So I acquired the rights to it. I come back to Dad. We got a deal, made a deal with it.

And then we look for a director, with my partner, Saul Zanz, we find Milos Foreman. Mason. And he seems like he's perfect. And then Milosh tells me, Michael, I love your father, but this is 20 years now later. He's too old.

He's now right. So I had to do the hardest thing ever had to do in my life, which is go to my father and say, Dad, We got the money. We're going to make the movie, but you're not going to be in it. And that was rough.

That was really rough. Do you remember, like, how vividly do you remember that conversation, like, how he reacted? Well, I just, there wasn't a lot of conversation. It was him just looking at me, you know, and wondering, I said, wondering whether I did everything and everything. And I had, I tried. And so, but he'd give me the rights and we'd sign things that were on the way. But I realize now you have maybe four good parts in your entire career, maybe five. You've got them on one hand.

And R.P. McMurphy was certainly one of them. So that was a really hard, hard moment. But I left the series after four seasons. I had a five-year contract and God bless Carl Malden and Quinn Martin, the producer, because in these days they never would let you out of a produce. To go do the picture, produce the picture. And the best moment was when I brought Dad up to see it in Berkeley, California,

our final cut. And before, and he saw the picture. We came out afterwards, he said, son, it's a great job. It's really good picture. And Jack, he was wonderful. And so, you know, I thought, oh, thank goodness. And so he was proud of it. But over the years, whenever he's wanted to, he would always say,

you never let me play that part. You know, and then I said, yeah, Dad, but you never made more money in your life. Look at all these Oscars it got. Look at how much money it made. Yeah, it was the right call. I mean, but that's, I can't even imagine that kind of conversation. So as the, so the producing career takes off off of, like, in this kind of interim period of your TV career. And then we get China Syndrome.

We get romancing the Stone, which establishes you as kind of like this, like, bona fide kind of action adventure star. At that point, like, was there a point that you remember feeling like I have now established myself as my own man, as my own. No, Josh, all I was established was I had four. hits as a producer in a row. I had four hits as a producer. And after, after cuckoo's nest, I had a studio deal as a producer. But I had films, I was not an approved actor. So I had films I produced like Starman with Jeff Bridges, right? I wanted to play that part. You got an Oscar nomination for that. Jeff did. Yeah, Jeff did. But no, I was still the television actor. And it's hard to explain because of streaming now.

The separate rails television actors and movie actors were on. And television was really treated a much more secondary factors. So even after those, and even like romancing the Stone, I tried to get Bert Reynolds for it, you know, and try to get it. And so I came in on the back end. So I was known as a producer. I think after those four pictures, Sid Scheinberg, who was running Universal,

brought me into his office, and asked me if I wanted to run the studio, run the film division of the studio. And I was so taken aback because I never even thought of myself as this producer, but I was a successful producer. I said, well, no, I mean, I like to act. And he said, well, after three years, you can act, you know.

I said, no, that's not going to work out. But, no, it didn't, it really, To get the credibility, it really wasn't until the year of fatal attraction, followed three months later by Wall Street coming out. So fatal attraction was the biggest grossing picture, a second biggest grossing picture of the year, and then Wall Street and getting the Oscar. And, you know, Dad had been nominated for three Oscars and never won,

and I think me winning that Oscar, well, first the nomination, I remember meant so much to me because the nominating committee is your fellow actors. Sure. So for me, it was the first time as a film actor was a man, I'm getting nominated

by my fellow actors. So I remember how important that nomination was to me and it gave me the kind of a credibility as an actor, the confidence that I didn't have before. And then, you know, winning was gravy.

I mean, Gordon Gecko, one of the all-time great characters and performances truly in history. And look, Oliver Stone is famously a button pusher of a director. He likes to provoke his actors, and seemingly he definitely tried that with you. And I guess it worked because it's an amazing performance. But can you take us a little bit inside that production? And in particular, the iconic speech, the Greed is Good speech.

Did that read to you as what it was going to become? Well, I just recently, recently found out that I was not. the first choice, which was a bit of a shock. But I was reading Oliver's book, Warren Beatty was the first person he went to for the role of a gecko. And then he went and then he went to, Officer and Gentleman, Richard Gear. Richard Gear, thank you.

He went to Richard Gear before he got to me. So all along I first met with Oliver I said, well, why did you choose to mean? He said, well, I wanted an actor who had some business acumen. And, you know, my producer, oh, I said, okay, that makes sense. I found later I was a third choice.

But it was a great script. I mean, Oliver, it was a really, really, he and Stanley Weiser, it was a wonderful complicated script with a lot of dialogue. And yeah, Oliver's got a tough way of working. I was in the picture for about two weeks. We've been shooting for about two weeks before. It was a knock on my trailer door.

And Oliver came in and he said, hi. I said, hi. And he looked at me. He said, how are you doing? I said, yeah, okay. I said, you doing drugs? I said, no, I'm not doing drugs. Oh, because you look like you never acted.

before in your life. Gordon Gekyll well I guess I never go look at I mean the dailies and stuff because you'll usually see the bad stuff so I don't like to do that but there's a problem I said well I guess I'd better go

look at a couple of the scenes so I go to the editing room I look at a couple of scenes they're both in Charlie Sheen's seduction scene in the back of a car and 21 club scene and I'm looking at I'm super critical. I think they're pretty good. You know, it's pretty good.

So I come back to Oliver. I say, Oliver, I think they're pretty good. He says, yeah, they are, aren't they? I said, what are you doing? What are you doing? And Oliver was ready for me to hate his guts for the rest of that picture. It would make me just that much angrier, that much of an edge. and I got to thank you for me.

You want to look at Oliver Stone's films. You know, you start with Jimmy Woods and El Salvador, Tom Cruise, Fourth of July, Charlie Sheena, Platoon, Kevin Costner, JFK, Val Kilmer, and the Doors. He has gotten the best performances out of actors. And the difference, if you would ask me,

the major difference between him and every other actor, He's a motherfucker. He, to them, most directors are like the patriarch figure, you know, actors were all insecure people. And he, and patriarch, the director takes care of them. Oliver is like he's back in Vietnam, and you're in the trenches with him, and you better be as good as he is. So I adore him, and I admire him. And I just actually did a little part in the picture. He's got called White Lies, which is a biography of his life.

him. And I'm playing his father. There's karma for you. There's something there. More happy, say, confused, coming up. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low, No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at nofrills.ca. For most of the history of professional sports, there was a wall between the game and

gambling. Then suddenly it was everywhere. Ontario is all in on sports betting. Make every moment more with band do. But that wasn't supposed to include the players themselves. Rackers for, Jontay Porter, is under NBA investigation. Athletes are the perfect gamblers. Understood. The Big Bet. Available now on Spotify. So like in this series of like this insane run that you have from like kind of like the late 80s on for the next 10, 15 years. It's like not only are you in a series of amazing films, but they're, they're

zeitgeist movies. They're movies that like become part of the cultural conversation. It's fatal attraction. It's falling down. It's basic instinct. And they, they inspire conversation. They inspire controversy. They're all like debated. They're protests for all these movies for various reasons. Do you really, that must have been such a high to go from kind of like, not only great film to great film, but zeitgeist film to zeitgeist film, to feeling like you're the center of culture. Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was, well, I'm a news junkie, you know, and I follow the news.

And so, you know, for a long time going way back, I've felt this struggle of roles between men and women. It's just an overall feeling that people are having a tough time finding the positions. And it goes back to actually casting on cuckoo's. when no actress wanted to play Nurse Ratchet. Right. Because back then in the women's movement, the idea of a woman being the villain was not acceptable yet. And so Angela Lansberry, Colleen Dewhurst, we had five different major actresses turned that part down until we found Louise.

So I've always had a little sense of what was going on. And, but the thing you have to realize is you got to have a good script rather than a good message. I mean, if you can get a message in there, that's great. But I think one of the issues and problems been having more recently in films is they're trying to get messages out there rather than make the film. You also, like, had this run of like, I mean, forgive me, but you were kind of like the king of like the sexy thriller. You had like all of these films. It was disclosure and basic instinct. And you're doing like, you know, sometimes like really extreme scenes, like right in the heyday of this kind of like era for that kind of film.

A day before intimacy coordinators. Do you have thoughts on that? Like this is the era of the intimacy coordinator. You didn't do it with that back then. No. No. We just did the old-fashioned way, you know. But there's a, I mean, there's a, I mean, there's a, there's.

There's an arc to sex scenes in films. It's not easy to do things like shadowing people when you're on top and this and that. But the big thing with sex scenes is trust. And as long as, and I'd say the lady trusting me, obviously I trust her, but like a dance, like a dance move, you're taking the lead. And if you just talk it out,

slowly kiss kiss by looking at you is it right to touch your breast yes alright my mom touch your breast kiss kiss and you do it and it's just like

choreographing a fight scene it really is you start very slowly very slowly and this like that and then action is and it all makes it look like it really happens

but it's the trust issue And I always felt it's Dick awkward enough for ladies in terms of mostly being surrounded by a male, a male crew and everything, especially in those days, to make sure that they were as comfortable as possible. And also, Josh, it was my producing hat. And because what I realized, it separated me from a lot of people was I really didn't worry about the part.

I mean, if I found a script, I just read the script, and I loved it, you know, it made me scared whatever hell the story was, I loved it. Then I would go back and look at my part. But I've always thought, you know, your part roles one small part of the whole. And so what you really need,

and something Paul Newman used to talk about a lot, You want better actors around you. You want the best you can get because it's the whole thing that matters. I mean, I'd rather be good in a little movie than lousy and a big part. Well, and that reminds me of a few other films. I mean, I think of something like traffic

where you're a big part of the ensemble there. And even something like, honestly, one of my favorite films, and you are the lead in it, co-lead, is the American president. Right. But it also, that movie works, of course, it's you and Annette,

but it works because of Martin Shee, and Anadivir Smith and just down the line. It's an amazing ensemble. And that's a famous Aaron Sorkin script, of course. And I always think, I think of so many iconic scenes from that. But I also think of, like, that final speech that I'm Andrew Shepard and I'm the president. Do you remember that speech in particular, that dialogue of Aaron Sorkin? Well, I remember it because the movie is made 35 years ago.

and what Andrew Shepard said then is prevalent to the situation now. So it's exciting, you know, on one side and very depressing on the other. One movie that happens to be one of my favorites that's a really ensemble picture and never achieved the kind of, you know, commercial success was a film called Wonder Boys.

And if anybody, you know, for anybody, if you ever get to, chance. It's a great picture. It's Robert Daly Jr., Francis McDormann, Toby McGuire, myself. Directed by Curtis Hanson. Fantastic. Curtis Hanson directed it. I never quite understood why, but it's a charming, shaggy dog. Connecting to your old hippie days a little bit. That guy was, had a little bit of that, right? That's right. I mean, speaking of which, you can tell him the cinephile. I could talk to talk to you endlessly about every single film in your filmography.

I do want to talk a little bit about the stuff that's in this book that some of it's making headlines is like you talking about the difficulties in your life outside of your career. You know, your first marriage that was a struggle. It seems like right from the beginning. Your difficulties with drugs with Cameron, your son. You didn't need to write a book that covered that. You could have just been like this, my life in the movies. Was it hard to kind of like go back and really kind of relive all?

of these difficult parts? Yeah, yes. I mean, it's, you know, we always like to try to forget the more painful parts, but I didn't really think there was any sense in writing a book, especially one that, you know, I wanted my grandchildren to understand without, you know, sharing the whole story. And I think part of the success, actually, and this is the part I was so nervous about, terms of coming out and having that kind of vulnerability. But people seem to appreciate it and understand the roles.

Yeah, I mean, one of the first things that shocked me when I was working on it, when I met my first wife, DeAndra, at Jimmy Carter's inauguration at January 20th, 1977, and I married her. her on March 20th. I married her 60 days later. Well, I couldn't believe it. And

when I realized it, you know, the invitations and everything, so I must have asked DeAndre to get married about 30 days after I knew her. And so, needless to say, we had a lot of ground to cover. And she was a

beautiful lady. Obviously, was infatuated with her. But we had she never knew anything about Hollywood. And I was already into the late 70s, early 80s, into my alcohol and drug phase.

She was nothing about any of that. So we had our struggles. And for instance, the realization that I had an affair with Kathleen Turner on romancing the Stone, we were separated, DeAndre and I at the time,

but still that happened. And I, well, hell, I'm selling a book, man. I figured I got to have a couple of the stories about, that was one of those stories where people did know. I told you, I knew it, I knew it, you know. Well, it's even also basic instinct. Like, I feel like everybody's like, oh, maybe him and Sharon. Yeah.

It's Gene Triplehorn. Gene Triplehorn. That's right. Sherrod was my beard. Now, here's my question. Did Catherine, your lovely wife, did she know everything? all of these stories going? I'll be home to ask her

because she just got the book two days ago and I've told her this was all, as I say, B.C. Before Catherine. So, you know, and we have a 25-year age difference. I'm looking at some of these films

like with Kathleen and Catherine would have been seven years old. So, you know, I don't feel bad. I think she, understands. Yeah. And on the alcohol, the drug stuff, I mean, do you see that in your

like when you see certain roles, do you see what you were going through personally that you were struggling? Is there a certain film of yours that was compromised, you think, by what you were going through? I don't think so. There might have been, but the trouble with alcohol and drugs is as long as you show up for work, you don't think you have a problem.

Right? So as long as you show up in the morning, this has always been the story, but I'm here. You don't have a problem. And again, our career was the most important thing in many of the lives, at least certainly with my life and my ambition was going on, and certainly was a difficult effect on my first marriage with DeAndra because I was working all the time. And the fact that you could halfway,

function. But then it was really the culmination, I think, of dealing with my son's problems. And then my stepfather, we haven't talked about this, but my mom remarried when I was 12, my dad remarried when I was about seven, and was my stepmother for 65 years. And I was really fortunate because the four of them loved each other. They get to you, they had dinner, together and there was no friction between my mother or father after the divorce. And I think that really helped me so much. And so I preach to people a lot of times about, you know, step-parents are fantastic. I'm sure there's some nasty ones out there, which you make movies about, the reality for most of them to assume, you know, out of their love for their spouse, they

assume the responsibility of somebody else's kids. And so Bill, Bill, Darren, who my father was my stepfather my father said Bill and told him Bill was your surrogate father I'm so grateful to Bill your stepfather for raising you and living back east so at that time right before Bill passed away and I loved him dearly

and the whole thing was too much in the marriage so I went to rehab thank goodness I mean I had a few friends that were advising me Michael might be a good idea check in and so that was very helpful. I mean, I can't imagine the complex series of emotions connected to your son then, who has his own struggles then, right, with drugs and eventually ends up in prison for over seven years, which, I mean, unfathomable for a parent, I would imagine.

So I would imagine you've gone through all the cycles of grief and guilt, and thankfully it seems have come out the other side. He's in a good place now. but you must have had time to reflect on that whole journey in the writing of this book. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not a pretty picture. You wonder how young or how early he was when he saw me acting out, what influence I might have had.

But the reality is that there's a gene. There is a gene. There's a risk gene. Certain families out there are the Kennedys, for one. You look at who have a gene. have, who like to take risks and it can go the wrong way. And yeah, Cameron has had a really, really rough time. He's out the other side.

I have two beautiful grandchildren with him. I'm proud to say that all three of my children are actors and they're good. I mean, I feel like my father, you know, if they can shake you in my head. You really want to do this. You really do, but they do. And, you know, you get through it. There's adversity. This is why, you know, I gave it the title that I did in the book.

I mean, another big adversity you faced, and I'm sure everybody in this room can relate to it, is you faced cancer. And that was, you were diagnosed, I believe, about 16 years ago. And you talk about it openly and about the struggle there. And you also say that it made you a better actor. It made you kind of a better human being. You've, like, kind of found the silver line. in that very difficult journey. Can you explain what you mean when you say why it's kind of like made you the better man that you are today?

Because my career was no longer the most important thing in my life. My family was, and the people closest to me. And that's lasted, that's continued after the 16 years since I first had the cancer. It was sort of similar in my father's case. he had a helicopter crash. He was 72. He was with a friend with a helicopter. They were going up in the pits aerobatics,

which is one of those tail draggers, was taking off and couldn't see, and hit the helicopter at about 40 feet in the air. The pits went down and exploded. An 18-year-old pilot was killed with the instructor. And my father's helicopter fell about 40 feet down, road is still going gasoline pouring out and it didn't catch fire and he was he didn't break a single bone in his body as Kirk Douglas not a single but he was black he was completely his body

and he was black the entire but the hospital and he started thinking why am I alive and this 18 year old kid is dead. And so he began a return to his Talmudic roots and got together with a rabbi every week and began studying the Old Testament. And at 72, he lived 103. His third act, he was a different man because he too, his career was now secondary. and his kindness, and his generosity, his foundation, giving everything he's given away,

and his thoughtfulness, his ability to listen, he totally changed. He's a man in our relationship really bonded. And I, in my own way, have felt that coming out on the other end of cancer and realizing what is so important. And particularly in this but cocked the world we're in right now, I was born in 1944, so I'm not the war, but this is by far the most complicated, difficult time I can remember not only in this country, but on the planet. And so for me, you know, the only way to make any sense of it was to go back to the roots to say, you've got to start with your family, you know, and remind yourself, I know I all got problems, but sometimes you learn not to make the biggest effort to a strain.

and take the person closest to you for granted. But, you know, every day you make that in from the family to your community, realizing, you know, those people who run for town council, maybe we, democracy is complicated. And it really realized how much more effort, when you look at our forefathers, how much time and effort they spent into maintaining, creating this democracy. It's a beautiful system, a beautiful system, but we really got to work at it. I feel like I just got a bonus scene from the American president. I got like the sequel.

Sequel moment right from it. President Shepard thank you for service. We've got some questions from our wonderful audience. This one is actually one I wanted to ask as well. When you look back on your career, is there a part that you regret turning down? No, I've got a lot that I'm glad I did. But I don't really have. There was impossibility in the very beginning of doing a love story.

but I didn't really have it, Ryan or Neal, but he was, I wasn't sure he was going to do it, but no, I don't have anything, no. Is there, does anyone come to mind you've worked with either on screen or producing, you feel hasn't received the acclaim or recognition that they deserved? Who's an unsung, great talent, you feel that you brought?

Boy, well, she's going to get an honorary Oscar this year. That would be Glenn Close, who's been nominated like eight times. And there's an extraordinary, extraordinary actress, so I'm happy that she's going to get that. There's so many really, really good actors out there. It's just a question, as I say, they get one of those four or five times. You get the good part. You're still tight with Mr. DeVito, with Danny DeVito?

You go way back with that guy. He's still tight. He was so sweet. He read the book one night. He's not a good sleeper, so he was reading the book all night. He was like, type, he's like he's bawling. He touched him. They made a lot to me, but he knows me.

We were roommates, you know, right out of when I was out of college in New York here. And so I was very sweet. It was a lovely letter from him. Let me ask you a couple other not so random items on your filmography. You devote some time because it's kind of tied to your cancer journey to behind the candelabro, which is a remarkable performance working with Stephen Soderberg and Matt Damon. Did you feel out on a whim? on that one, that's a bold swing.

That's a big choice. Well, yeah. But it was, you know, I was coming out of my cancer, wondering if I ever was going to work again. And God bless Stephen Soderberg, you know. We had done, you know, traffic together before. And it was just, it was so wonderful. And I love playing character parts.

I've always hidden behind wanting to do more. character work. So we had to wait a year because I lost so much weight to kind of gain some. And I remember we got together before the picture was starting. I threw a lunch at a friend's house out in Malibu at the beach and Steven Soderberg was there and my kids were there. And I know Steve was looking at me. I'm not sure because we had talked. It was a complicated piece. And all of a sudden my son Dylan started going through the thing, well, thank you very much. you're doing all the things, and all of a sudden, Soderberg realized how much rehearsal I must be doing

that his kid is here playing the role. So he gave him a lot much more security. But we had a great time on that. And we had, I mean, when Rob Lowe came in, oh, as a psychiatrist, all the uplifts and everything. Matt and I, hey, how about this? A few years ago, how brave is Matt? The prime of his career, right?

You know, go with me from the rear. You know, I don't know. I remember shooting that scene and Steven Soderberg is also the cameraman and director and he's figuring out how to stage it so he said what, you're lying across the bed and Matt, you're behind, I'll be down low like this and say okay and action

and blah blah blah man takes off going and I'm supposed to be taking poppers and this like that we do the whole scene and then he all right cut and he puts the camera down He takes his glasses off, and he says, I have no notes. There's one film that's actually, I don't even know if you cover in this book, but I love it so much. You talk about iconic filmmakers. David Fincher on The Game, that's a great movie.

I really love that movie. Did you and David get along? I mean, he's a tough cookie himself. Yeah, no, we did. He just, he does so many takes. I know, yeah. He does, no, I mean, no, I admire him in so much. much. And I love that picture. I have a big check of the book. I have 10 chapters on 10 different

movies because when I first started producing, I read a book called Memo by David O'Seltznik, which is the greatest book to read if you want to learn about producing, this is all about his notes in all the pictures that he produced with gone with the wind and the others, which gives you an idea of what a producer can. do. And so that was a big help. So in the middle of the book, I got ten chapters on different

movies starting from the very beginnings of the big book and understand how they start and create and sort of an education on that. And unfortunately, that's what I realize, how many good pictures. You made too many damn good movies.

The game and the game and Black Rain, which I liked a lot. Black Rain were not included. And Wonder. Boys. Winter Boys, you have enough for volume, too. You've got plenty of your boys. Yeah. I've always wanted that shirt that Sean Penn presents you to at the end. I was left for dead in Mexico and all I got was this lousy t-shirt. I've been looking for that online for years. You also, I mean, just like as a comic book geek, it was fun to see you pop up in the, in the Ant Man films in recent years. And those have those own unique challenges. Obviously, even in like that last one, like green screen, the whole thing. Is it true that you asked to be killed off in the last Ant-Man's film?

I'd been killed off after the second one, but he wouldn't let me. No, after the cancer, you know, and after having a behind the candelabra, there was a moment. I said, well, what haven't I done? What am I interested in? And comedy. I am such a fan of

comedy, and I'm just so curious, and resent the fact that when Oscar time comes comedians are never acknowledged. And yet we all love our friends that are funny. We all cherish them

because there's not that many of them. And, you know, so what makes comedy? So when Chuck Lorry came to me with the Kaminsky method with Alan Arkin, I said, man, what a chance what a chance

to work with two comedy geniuses. And I would watch Alan Arkin talk about Jewish Jewish humor and you know Alan I could only have to yeah and it was wonderful

so I said okay that takes care I feel like I've learned more about comedy then I said I've never done a green screen movie I said I've never so I said I liked all my ages I like to do one of these green screen movies to see what they like you know because it's amazing it's nothing just a green screen that show you the pictures

once you look like when it's all finished it's hard acting, that's really, it's very copy. You learned why you weren't. You're telling you. All right,

it's coming at you there, this and that, you know. And so we did Ant Man. Paul Rudd was a wonderful actor, a lovely group. And, but then, you know,

you can't get out of it. Reading the fine print. Oh my God. They've got me. The fine print. And then finally, I had never done a period movie. All my career,

I've never done a period movie. Right. And the Franklin series, the Ben Franklin series, came up for the year. That was the end of 20, 23. And then I kind of called it quits. I said, you know, I finished that.

I said, well, I'll take a rest. And I took a rest for a while. And I loved it. I just, and I realized I've been working really hard, Josh, for almost 60 years, you know. And so I'm taking off now for a while, for about a year and a half. And then Shane Salernie,

who co-wrote this book with, was a, it is a screenwriter. And when I was in the hospital, I read in the book, one of the things that was weird when I had cancer is people don't like to, you know, I didn't get many visits.

People, they're a little over there, they hear stage four, you know, it's like they don't know whether they're supposed to say goodbye or, you know, this. But Shane, who I didn't remember, I remember he began to rewrite. He started writing these notes, you can be. They really meant a lot to me.

And then over the years, he kept saying, you should write a book. I said, your story's amazing, man. No, no, no. And then after about a year and a half of this resting up,

I thought about it. And I realized, God, between my father and I, we got, you know, 80 years in the business, and 120, 130 movies. and kind of a legacy,

and they're really not any other families that were quite like this before, and now my kids are actors, and so. And then also the big thing was memory. I said, if I could do this, my memory is not that good in the past. And so this allowed you to go back and rediscover these memories

and the friendship. So it all came together, and so it's been 18 months, and I'm really proud and happy the ways it turned out. No, we're loving all the stories. Hello to everybody again. And truly, I know you guys all have the books. This is the tip of the iceberg.

It's an amazing read, and it's an amazing life, well-lived. Every happy, sad-confused episode, my podcast ends with some profoundly random questions, Michael. Are you ready for some random questions? I hope so. We'll see. Are you a dog or a cat person? Dog. Do you collect anything?

What? Do you collect anything? I used to, well, when I was a kid, I collected stamps. Then when I made some money with Cuckoo's Nest, I collected Hudson River School paintings. And since then, no. Have you ever been a video game player, an arcade game back in the day? No video game. No, that's fine. Not a video game, nor was I a comic book guy.

That's okay. We forgive you. What's the wallpaper, the background on your phone? Is my, an older picture of my kids that this should be updated? I wouldn't imagine this happens to you, but are you ever mistaken for another actor? Who's the last actor you were mistaken for? That's a good question. No, well, I get, sometimes I get, let me tell you a quick story. So dad, before he passed through

he was saying Michael, Michael. I'm looking at one of my movies on television the other night, right? I'm looking at the movie, Michael. I can't even remember this, where it is. And then I look at it again, and I say, wait a minute, that's Michael. That's not me.

So I'll get, people get excited and they go, Kirk! Kirk! I said, no, he's. You were great in Spartacus. You were amazing. And I do see, I must say, even the older I get, I see tremendous resemblance. You see it in the mirror sometimes when you catch yourself, you see it? No, I see it in photographs.

I don't look at myself in the mirror that much, Josh. What's the worst noted director has ever given you? The worst note that director's ever given me. I can tell you the best one. That's fine, too. Faster. Just go faster. That's helpful. You like that? Everybody loves when in and out, pick up the pace.

Yeah. And nothing sticks out as like aggressive with that one? No, one of the problems, I wish I got more. I think too many times directors were intimidated because I was a producer. You were their boss, kind of. Well, or just I knew it so I would have loved to have gotten more help. I was much more insecure as an actor than I was as a producer. And in the spirit of happy, say, I'm infused. Who's an actor that always makes you happy?

You see them on screen. You're just in a better mood. Well, Albert Finney was my inspiration. I loved Albert Finney for years. Jack, of course, is a lovely actor. there's so many but it's also the part it's also the part Brian Cranston's wonderful too

I like Brian Crenson Is there a movie that makes you sad I remember years ago Anybody who remember a movie called Lily Yeah A song of love is a sad song I remember that when I was a kid I loved two for the road

That was a really, really sweet picture. I have to admit, Josh, I am not a large moviegoer if I have it for a few years. I've turned a little bit of a sports news junkie. That's okay. All is forgiven. You make them. You don't have to watch them. Yeah.

And finally, a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Why do people eat that? Marmite. Oh, yeah. Marmite. Can't figure that. My wife, I look at her.

I don't know what we have. common. This is the biggest source of friction at home, the Marmite discussions. Oh my gosh, I just said, how can you eat that? Well, good luck getting past the Marmite. Congratulations, and we're so privileged. Again, this is the day this book comes out, this wonderful book, One Hell of a Ride. You all have this copy for those folks watching at home.

Check it out. It's a remarkable read. Thank you. An absolute living legend. Mr. Michael Douglas. Give it up one more time, everybody. Thank you very much. Thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

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