Happy Sad Confused - Nicolas Winding Refn

Episode Date: June 27, 2016

Filmmaker Nicolas Winding Refn (Drive, The Pusher trilogy) joins Josh to talk about his new horror film The Neon Demon starring Elle Fanning, what lead him to start creating films that he wished to see, who would make the perfect Wonder Woman, and his love of the James Bond films. This episode is sponsored by Blue Apron and Casper Mattresses. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get after him or have you shot What do you mean blow up the building From this moment on None of you are safe New episodes every Wednesday Wherever you get your podcasts Hey, guys, and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused. I'm Josh Horowitz, and you're listening to my podcast.

That's how this works. And this is where I talk to cool filmmakers and actors. And in the case of this week, a very cool writer-director by the name of Nicholas Winding Refin, the director of such films as the Pusher trilogy. More recently, Drive, the Hall of Rising, only God-Forghumed. and the new film, The Neon Demon, a, it's a cliche to say, but it's true, a divisive filmmaker. We'll get into that in a second. But first, a big hello to Sammy on the intro. Hi, Sammy.

Big hello right back to you, Josh. We're so thrilled to have you back in the country for two consecutive weeks. Wow, me too. So, yeah, so let's see. This week I want to mention that, I want to give a little preface to this movie because it is a movie that is worth talking about. There's a lot to talk about. If you haven't heard about it, it's called The Neon Demon.

It stars El Fanning, Keanu Reeves in a supporting role, and it's, God, how to describe this? Well, Jenna's in the office. Jenna saw the movie with me. Jenna, how would you describe the movie? Jarring. Jarring, okay. She said jarring for those of you who didn't hear. She said jarring.

You can tell the movie had an effect on her because she audibly said a word. Well, I, when I saw Jenna this morning, she was, she was a little shell shocked to It's that kind of a movie. So it's basically about a 16-year-old model, would-be model that moves to L.A. And kind of just goes down the rabbit hole and basically a lot of really screwed up things happen. It's filled with, God, necrophilia, murder, cannibalism. You loved this movie. I did.

It's filled with the most. All the staples of great cinema. Kianu is great. Kianu. Love Kianu. He's great in this. So happy to see Keanu. He's used very well in it.

Honestly, I've seen this movie twice. Oh, and a terrible way to describe a human being. What? He's used very well in this. He used the receptacle that is Keanu Reeves. But I know. He's a mesmerizing kind of filmmaker. He's clearly, whether you find his work abrasive and some do, you can't quarrel the fact that he knows how to craft very arresting images and sound and color.

He's got all the ingredients to be a great thing. filmmaker and he, and I think he is one. I love, I mean, everyone loves Drive. I think Drive's got an incredible soundtrack and it's beautiful and... Yes. Oh my God, I just realized. What's that? Christina Hendrix.

Yeah, she's in this one too. Yeah, is in both of them. She, he loves the Christina Hendricks. Who doesn't? He talks in this conversation as he's talked before. He wanted to make a Wonder Woman movie and his stipulation was that Christina Hendricks had to play Wonder Woman. What idiot didn't let that happen?

I said to, I was saying this morning, I was saying this morning, I was Like, when I see Christina Hendricks, I feel the same way I feel when I see Beyonce. It's like an empowerment. Like, she's cool. She's only got, I think, one or two scenes in this, but she's pretty funny in it. Christina Hendrix for everything. She's great. And this is a really interesting conversation with, like, someone, again, whether you appreciate him or have quarrel with some of his work, he is unabashedly, you know, a unique artist.

And certainly someone that, like, talks the talk and walks the walk and talks about his. intent and and his singularity of his vision and his quest to make great art. And it's all, you know, kind of heady stuff, but really like, I think a different kind of a conversation than we often have here because usually, frankly, I'm, I have very banal stupid conversations because that's the kind of person I am, right, Sammy? Yeah, no, absolutely. I heard he did something cool at the beginning of the screen. Yeah, did you ask him about that?

Oh, no, we didn't talk about that. The selfie moment kind of a thing. Well, as he said, it's kind of a film about narcissism. So he asked everybody before the screening to take out their cell phones and just snap away. Did you? No. I disobeyed counterculture. But no, this is a really cool conversation where we talk a lot about his work all throughout his career, but also the temptations of Hollywood and doing big movies because he's been somebody that's been attached or at least talked about for big studio movies since making drive.

We talked about him perhaps when he's directed James Bond. movie. Interesting. Sorry, Christina Hendricks or what? Well, he said he's next wants to do a spy movie, and I suggested Christina Hendricks, and he said that's a really good idea. So if it happens, I get full credit. We'll see. Right?

Yeah. No, but I'm... So Hollywood works, isn't it? We also talk, of course, about the Ryan Gosling. Yeah? Can't help it. Did you? I wonder if him and Ryan talked about you. No, he would definitely not. He has no, no, at least he didn't say that.

I basically apologized to Ryan. through Nicholas in this conversation because I think Ryan hates me but I'm trying but but Nicholas said he would try to thing going for a while I know you have to be thankful for that you know I'll save the reason for this for the actual podcast

but you'll hear why I feel like Ryan Gosling hates me but hopefully Nicholas will mend all the fences and things will be okay I wouldn't hope for that but I don't think that's in the cards for me no okay I think you and Ryan are at the end of your road we had a good run exactly I think you need to be happy for what you did have with him You know what I found out, well, not in this conversation, but when Drive came out,

I think I talked to you about this, they sent out as a promotional item, one of the greatest promotional items ever for a film, the jacket that Ryan wore in it with a scorpion on the back. There's a picture of me wearing said jacket that's horrifying, and I thought it was gone. And I was 99% sure it was gone. I certainly didn't know where it was, but my wife the other day mentioned that she thinks she has it and she's been like hiding it because she I think doesn't want me to ever wear it in public. She's so good to you. You don't deserve that woman. And if Jenny's listening, I'm

asking her to let you wear the jacket in public and see what happens. Oh, God. It's just, yeah, but like feel it with such confidence. Screams from children on the street. Yeah. What is that? More than usual. Okay, I won't wear that jacket ever. But it's good to have, good to know I have it in case of emergency. Anything else to talk about? No, I'm excited for this combo. Okay, me too. We've got a lot of cool stuff coming up already.

I can mention this because we taped it next week on the podcast, a returning guest, the first three Peter on Happy Second Fused, the amazing Anna Kendrick on the show. Wonderful, lovely Anna Kendrick. Just in time for July 4th, guys. Come back next week and you'll hear. Perkins, sweetheart, just in time for July 4th. Exactly. But for this week, enjoy a very thoughtful, interesting filmmaker by the name of Nicholas Winding Refin.

Go check out The Neon Demon. It is in theaters. And it's actually an Amazon film, so it'll be on Amazon in a bit, too, if you just want to hold out and get it for free on Amazon Prime. Got it. Got it. You got it? Do you know how Amazon works? Don't need to walk you through it?

Well, yeah. Okay, we're going to go do that. I'm going to go teach Sammy how the internet works. And we'll do Ask Jeeves tutorial after that. Here's Mr. Reffin. Enjoy guys. Enjoy. It's good to see you, sir. Thank you for coming by today.

Very welcome. Where do you rank in the process, this part of the process, the talking endlessly dissecting yourself and dissecting the film? This isn't why you make the movies, I know, but can't be enjoyable in some bizarre way? Yeah, because I love opinions. I love reactions I've seen your film twice and I'm a great admirer of yours

and a great admirer of this work I really very much enjoyed it I'm still processing and I don't know if you asked me to explain a lot of it maybe I wouldn't be able to but I can tell you I enjoyed it let me hear

well here's what I'm curious about like I sat through last night at the New York premiere or whatever and I was kind of surprised by some of just like the reactions throughout the screening were you sitting in with the screening?

No no no no I mean, L was, but I'm too, I'm too scared. I tend to just hide. I never watch my own films. The only time I have done it is they make you do that can. Right. They make you sit through. Yeah.

Corporal punishment. Like for the sins you've done. Exactly. But else, I'm the first one out of the door. Do you, so do you ever, like, do you do like friends and family kind of screenings? I assume you don't test screen your films, but do you show your films as work works in progress to people. I don't test my films.

I don't show my films to anyone until they're done. And how do you know they're done? When I'm done. Does that mean in terms of physical and mental exhaustion or knowing like this is as close to the piece of art that I had envisioned at the start? I don't envision from the beginning because I know it's going to change. It's when I feel it's done. Yeah. And has that process changed significantly since the beginning in terms of that in the

instinctual kind of knowing it. Does that come with experience? Does it come with? I've become a lot better at just trusting my instincts. Yeah. And, well, because I mean, I would think part of this, I mean, are you the type of filmmaker, for instance? Like, as I've been researching and getting ready to chat with you today, like, I found no less than two or three, like, rankings of your films, right? Every time a new film comes out from a filmmaker that we appreciate, we see these kinds of things.

Do you digest that stuff? Do you look at that stuff? I mean, I'm aware of it. Sometimes I indulge in it, sometimes I don't. It spends in the mood of the day. How much you want to self-flagellate and tell how much you want to. Yeah, it's like, do I need punishment or I need worshiping? Oh, what to choose from.

But I love that, you know, both elements are there because I always, you know, believe that the end of creativity is a reaction. I do not believe that good and bad has any real value in creativity. I think that

we're certainly in the future very much beyond that limitation. Because, I mean, let's be honest, there's an audience for everything. Yes. So it's kind of like beyond of control. And because the digital revolution has allowed complete access to everything. thing and everyone there's no longer a gatekeeper and I think that's wonderful because it really

comes back to the active creativity being everyone's ability you know what's interesting I think you're you're right in terms of you know back in the day I think if like a unique filmmaker wanted to kind of keep kind of elevating in status whatever that means and getting bigger budgets they would have to kind of like throw the ball down the middle a little bit more. But I feel like you could stay in this lane forever. There's that Nicholas Reffen audience waiting for you that appreciates your kind of thing, if you so choose.

It's there. It's choose for your liking. And because the digital revolution, it's forever. So maybe new people will come. And I think, because for me, it's not about so much what you do anymore it's what you stand for you know I have children I have I think that's important that we teach our next generation that you don't have to fit in you know normality is not particularly interesting right there's nothing wrong with it but

don't strive for it if you don't want to and the only thing that can ever be taken away from you is your singularity. And if you want to be an artist, just remember that that's your only strength you really have. Yeah. It's your singularity. And never shy away. Take the praises, take the beatings, stand up and be proud. It feels like, I mean, looking at your work so far in your career, you really haven't. I mean, correct me by wrong, do you think you've made a compromise at some point, like a significant compromise? in terms of your artistic integrity? I think I did it on one movie many years ago

and it failed miserably because of that. This was the, I confess, I've never seen the John Tertrero. Yeah. Well, a lot of people haven't, so that's a good reason for that. You're fond of me never seeing it or you? Well, I mean, you know, I mean, there are I think probably some good ideas in it, but I was lucky to experience extreme failure.

when I was fairly young so I was like 30 29 30 and I was thank God for that experience even though at the time it was absolutely terrifying and and you know it like it was a snowball it went from you know creative disaster to financial disaster to my going bankrupt to me owing my bank a million dollars personally to us having our first child and like wow and but then like any dyslexia you turn it into a strength right and you become a superhuman and this so the if in terms of the chronology setting this uh in the framework this was post push or this is post the trilogy no actually um i made to completed the push your trilogy of two and three because I needed the money. Oh, to get the money, yeah. That's right.

So I paid off my debt by two and three. So it was like starting over again. But I started over again just a little bit wiser. Yeah. And I'm glad because then I realized that now I knew what not to do. Right. And that I would now make films purely based on not one to be accepted, but based on purely what I would like to see.

So I became very self-indulgent, self-obsessed, self-absorbed, narcissistic, and beautiful. Can that ever lead you down the wrong path, though, to be, is it possible to be too self-indulgent as a filmmaker? I don't think that you can never go be too self-indulgent because creativity is about narcissism and self-indulgent. It's like key factors. ego you name it if you don't have those elements we can go through the list of people and you very quickly see a very strong parallel to certain abilities you know you take everything

from you know Picasso to any wall to Stanaco break I was going to say I mean my favorite filmmakers when I think of them they're the meticulous people that kind of had a singular revision that could not be compromise, whether it's Kubrick or De Palma has been up, talked about a lot lately. All right, great, Brian Palma is a wonderful filmmaker.

And I can certainly say that there is self-indulge and narcissistic behavior, which is beautiful. Yeah. Because that's what creativity is. It's marrying your own vanity and your own needs to express. It's a very personal process. It's very intimate. But the more in love you are with yourself,

the more you can fulfill some kind of childish fantasy of of an inner need to create. It's like an infant drawing, painting a picture. What I find fascinating about you, though, is like, and I rewatched yesterday

the documentary made by your wife and during the making of Only God forgives, is there, I feel like there's that push and pull, and this is probably for many artists of the ego, of the self-confidence, of the believing in yourself, and yet, I mean, if you look at that documentary, you see you're filled with constant self-doubt and misery and all of that. They're two sides of the same coin and it's impossible. I mean, you can't be human and not have one without the other, I guess.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we all go through times of self-doubt, self-loathing, patheticness. You know, love, hate, paranoia, anxiety, godlike status, paranoia. hatred god like it status it's like closest thing men have to going into labor I guess but it's um it's part of the process and say it's important because believe me if you don't have humility in the process then your narcissism don't really function yeah where yourself indulgent is not true so I embrace all these quote unquote difficult sections of it the process as a strength but I need to extrovert it

right I need to relish in it in order for me to pass through it and even as pathetic as I can get the stronger it makes me and the more clearer it becomes and the more clearer it becomes about singularity, but I have to live through the doubts and the hatred and the mood swings. And it's not always easy for a family to live with that. I mean, I've been with my wife for 20 years, so she kind of knows the process. Now she decided to document it. Are you happy that it's out there now for all the world to see? Yeah. I think if it inspires There's other people. I'm happy.

I mean, I'm happy for her to kind of come to terms with our marriage, and this is what it's like. And if she wants to get away, she needs to divorce me. And I didn't know that was even on her mind, so that was a bit like, whoa, of a shock. But, you know, behind every great man, there's always a greater woman. I do believe that women are the most brilliantly invention God has ever created. man was just a byproduct. Is there a point in every film that you've made thus far where you think it's an unmitigated disaster?

Have I that I made? Yeah. Oh, by no mean to know. No. That doesn't go hand in hand where there's a there's a low point where you're like, why did I even get into this and they can't be salvaged? I think the earlier movie that we talked about, I can look back and see why that was wrongful, right reasons.

Right. and right for all the wrong reasons. But since then, no. So let's talk about this one. I'm curious, like, again, process-wise, and, like, you talked a little bit about how it's a bit fluid, and you've talked to others about how meeting L really informed this as I assume your collaborations with people like Ryan Gosling

have informed those films. But just in terms of, like, mechanics, like, of getting a green light, of getting a funding for a movie like this. Like, is there a set, was there the sets? script, the set pitch? Was there a pitch meeting where you had to kind of like show your wares and what in a nutshell was that pitch? Well, it started a few years ago. After I had done Valholler Rising, I went to France because I knew that, or I had learned that a kind of average French movie can cost very easily between five or six million euros. And I went to Gomont-N-N-Mal

bunch, which are these two big French companies. And because I, because I, had done Valorizing with Wild Bunch and they had made a lot of money on it. And at that meeting, I told these two actually competing companies that when I are joining forces around me, that I would give them two movies for six. So I just needed three million euros per movie and then they would get two films. And then they were like, okay, how about this? How about we each put a million euro in a hat so one for come on one more wild bunch one for you

and then we'll split 50-50 and I said okay and how about this how about we do that I'll write produce and direct and we'll see you at the premiere they were like okay so the first one

was going to be only God forgives then I went off and I did drive a lot of things changed for me thank God but I'd never want to to renegotiate the deal because they were very honorable when I made it originally because it had given me two films, you know, automatic. So only got because it became the first one. We shot that on $4 million.

It made a lot of money. And there was a script, of course, that they had seen and greenlit and so forth. It changed a lot in the process, but they learned that that was the whole. essence of how I do things everything will change right and so when I got time to Neandem and I went back and I said I need a little bit more money because I want to shoot in

Los Angeles which is expensive and I don't have a script and I don't have a cast and they were like okay that's a good place to be in the collaborators have yeah that I had the backing of a wild bunch and gumont to basically go make the movie and then when it was done

By that time, I had sold the film to some key partners I have around Europe, especially France, UK, Italy, and Germany, which have been kind of partnering up on my films in the last few years. So it's the same people I work with again and again and again. But of course, the big game changer once the film was done, Nian Demon was Amazon kind of came in and purchased the U.S. rights. And that was just like a whole new avenue of possibilities, both because of the abilities, the strength, ambitions they have, the boldness. And Bob Bernie, who runs distribution, had done drive with me. So there was a very, there was a real safety kind of atmosphere for me.

And Roy and Jason, who kind of. of top brass were like totally behind the film and they had seen it and they were like we're in and they gave me a very beautiful long theatrical run i was going to say you still get three month i think three months theatrical run and and and because i make experiences and then at the same time a very strong streaming presence which is forever yeah so you get the best of what works Hey guys, we've got a returning sponsor to Happy Sad Confused this week. And it is Casper, a sleep brand that created one perfect mattress sold directly to consumers, eliminated commission-driven, inflated prices. Its award-winning sleep surface was developed in-house, has a sleek design, and is delivered in a small, how did they do that sized box? In addition to the mattress, Casper also offers an adaptive pillow and soft, breathable sheets. An in-house team of engineer spends thousands of hours developing the casper. They combine springy latex and supportive memory foams for a sleep service that's got just the right sink and just the right bounce. Plus, its breathable design, sleeps cool to help you regulate your temperature throughout the night.

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H-A-P-P-Y. You will love how good it feels and taste to create incredible home-cooked meals with Blue Apron, so don't wait. That's blueapron.com slash happy. Blue Apron, a better way to cook. Now, had you, I don't know if you still are collaborating with them or not, but there was talk of the Barbarrella for Amazon. Was that something that ever is still being developed, or did that come up? Well, I don't, I don't own a barborella. It's owned by the estate, and I think Gomon still has it.

But I decided to be more interested in the neon demon. And plus, there's other television things that caught my attention where I actually enjoy a lot more designing it from the beginning. Got it, as opposed to reappropriating something else that's... Yeah, it became like Barbara was almost like, you know, It's like Logan's run. Certain things are better left untouched because you don't need to remake everything. Which is, I mean, which is definitely a part of the conversation I want to talk to you about because, you know, your name, I mean, as you say, drive changed things for you clearly.

Absolutely. And got you into a lot of rooms that you probably weren't being welcomed into. Oh, yeah. And that there's got to be just tremendous amount of temptation. You're getting, you know, different kind of scale of budget that you can play with. And I would think at some point you are going to take advantage of that and find the right fit. But like, why do you think, because like there have been things I know like Barrella and Equalizer and, you know, I could rattle off a few. Is there a particular reason that you think it hasn't happened yet where you found the right match for a big budget studio kind of project?

Are they scared of you? Are you scared of it? Is it just not fitting yet? Well, I mean, I love Hollywood. And I love Hollywood movies. I mean, I love Michael Bay. I mean, he's a very inspiring filmmaker, I feel, and I basically watch all his movies.

I think that... I believe that since I'm the future, I'm much more interested in the creative high. And no money can outwe. way creative control right it just does not match and the idea that you can wake up every morning go to work do exactly what you want to do is beyond the idea of money right it also becomes important in that it's something that we must always remember to give our children which is again don't create your own world create your own future right you don't have to

play the game in order to achieve what you want and everything is not about money actually it's exact reverse we should maybe stop talking so much about money and talk more about why we're doing it because in a way we'll probably start doing something else right so I think that on this very lucrative ride of financial opportunities, it just hasn't been a project that's worth the trade-off. Not that it hopefully won't happen. I mean, God, I'll take any meeting. I'll look at anything.

I have no, by no means, not opposed to it. It's just hard when I'm just very, very happy with what I do. Right. You're spoiled in a way and having your own sandbox to play in it. At least it's my sandbox, you know, and I've been very lucky to do some wonderful advertising, so it's like my day job. Right. Pays the bills, which, my God, you need when you have a lot of people dependent on you.

But, you know, you'll never know. I mean, I'm off to L.A. on Saturday again. More meetings to come. Yeah. Well, it's funny because, like, from my perspective, just as a lover of film and, frankly, a great admirer of your work, but also a great. admirer of genre and spectacle, the notion of seeing you do, you know, like, I don't know how flippant you were at the time, but like you kind of talked a lot at the time about Wonder

Woman, right? Did you ever get in the room with Warner Brothers about that? Are you kidding? They didn't let you in? I don't know. No, they didn't let me in. At one point, they did come to me at a very early conversation, but you know, I was like, I love on a woman, but I would only do a Christian handwrecks. What about Bond? There was some talk, there was some rumors a while back that you were at least discussing with the Bond folks.

Did that get anywhere? How did these things come out? I had some wonderful meetings with the broccoli. and Daniel, Craig, and so forth. I very much like them. I love James Bond. I'm a huge. I've actually started watching them again with my eldest daughter.

Oh, nice. I'm a big Sean Connery guy. What's your favorite of the bombs? Well, I think that from Russia will love and Dr. No, which is the first one. I mean, Terrence Young, who really created you know, of course it's Ian Fleming's character but what we know is the film Bond

really created that the film Bond and the world of Bond it was a really great film director and he kind of defined this character that Sean Connery plays based on the Fleming's books in a world that is so

largest in life but I love the first ones because they're very raw like very very almost kind of culture in a way so I love the first two I like Goldfinger because of just the absurdity of the story

and but I think probably my favorite one is in a magic secret service George Lays and Bid yeah and of course he is who he is but as a movie yeah I mean that was Peter Hunt who had edited a lot of the films came in and and did that film

as a director and it's one of the best directed action films I've ever seen. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's also, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's probably, my favorite, James Bond. I was, I was, I was, I was, feel sad that, um, Timothy Dalton didn't get more to play with. I actually thought living day lights was a solid one. license to kill probably less said the better

but he at least had a little bit of that danger a little bit of that edge that we needed after Roger Moore well and then live a let live or let die wasn't that the one with Roger Moore yes the great music where that song of poem accord is just amazing

so did you just out of curiosity do you even have a take or what if I gave you the reins of bond what you would do with it at this point I got ideas okay okay um well we'll jump around a bit okay let's go back to neon demon if we could so um do you you have a teenage daughter now right i have two and one of them just turned 13 so have you shown them the film no are you kidding the only thing my eldest did was she

wanted or insisted on walking the red carpet at can to hear i can't deny on that that tree that's a lifetime okay your mother says yes i guess it's yes So you've said whether flippantly or seriously, this is kind of like you're, you know, there's a 16-year-old girl in all of us. Where did this, you know, creative obsession and inspiration come from? Because, you know, you've talked about, you know, the hyper-masculinity in a lot of your films, and this certainly is a little, again, the different side of the coin. Did this feel like fresh territory for you? Did this feel exciting in that way that you were getting a chance to kind of explore a whole new part of? yourself oh absolutely i mean i uh it was it was a film that that you know i kind of already

knowing i was going to do like after drive but in order to get to it i needed to go through only god forgives which partly is about emasculating crawling back to the womb of the mother in order to come out as a 16 year old girl um so they're very you know thematic connections. But you can kind of see the origin of it. Originally I'd spoken with Christian Hendricks about it some years ago and I said to her, I really want to make a horror film next and she was like, oh, what's it about? And I said, I don't know yet, but I know there's going to be blood and high heel. And then later I woke up one morning, you know, one of those morning we feel just terrible and I was like I was just accepted I was never born beautiful but my wife is

and I wonder what that would be like and then I saw my children you know how the social media is changing their perspective of the future in such a rapid way that we can't even follow up with it thought, I want to make a horror film about beauty, but it has to be about a teenage girl. And that became like the conceptual idea. And then I had the opening, and then I came up with the ending, and then I had the basis for structure. And then that's how it began. It's funny, like, even the notion of the topic of, like, of beauty is something, it's

like, even in my profession of, like, talking to actors, it's one of those things It's, like, hard to even discuss because, you know, I mean, you know, you've worked with some of the most, you know, objectively gorgeous genetically gifted human beings on the planet. You know, think of Orion Gosling and L, et cetera. But it's hard to talk about to their face. Like, can you, I don't even know how I would discuss with L or Ryan like, you are beautiful. Like, that's a tough thing to even say to somebody. How do you process that? Because in their own mind, they probably process it differently.

well actually with al it was kind of interesting because when i started casting the movie i was still writing the movie and i'd been working on it for about a year and a half script-wise going to various phases of it trying to figure out how to bring it into a singularity because it all these themes i wanted to touch upon all these scenes i wanted to touch upon all these scenes scenes that I had written down or I write on index cards. So when it came to casting, I was, I was like, well, maybe when I cast Jesse, the lead actor or lead that, the lead character, that will be able to kind of zone everything in. Because it's, for me, it's always that, because it's the alter ego of me.

And because I shoot films in chronologically order, I approach everything in a very chronologically approach. So I was casting unknown actresses in LA because there was no one that I felt had the thing. So I'd gone unknown. And my wife one day says, we've been talking about El Fanning because she had seen a film of hers, one of Elle's later films. And Liv said she was like really, really good. good in it and I spoke with the casting directors who Nicole and Courtney who were just like absolutely wonderful and they were like oh yeah yeah no we know her we know they have worked with her before so it's like what can you set up a meeting and they set up a

meeting and prior to that Elle's manager then sent me a photo shoot that Elle had done and just like instinctually I was just like that's her so much like a nevola in the film his his reaction to her basically it's the same exact same thing i did the nevola classic nevola i just gazed and i was like i was in love so i was like agenda get l fanning so Elle came over for a meeting and little that i know that she actually really wanted the part so i thought i had to woo her

so i was selling it left right and center but i was really boring it down to saying I would like to make a horror film about beauty I would like to live out my fantasy of a 16 year old girl and it has to come through you

A, because you're 16 and you're the exact thing that this movie needs and we would continue to talk a little bit about more about beauty and the digital revolution because I have this theory

that you know you and I are the generation where we saw the invention of the digital world. My children will remember when it really became a tool of normality, but their generation will only see it as a real reality and not artificial because it would be so well perfected in our mind that it's no longer artificial. And Elle said, ironically, she wanted to make a movie about beauty for her generation. So it was like a kindred spirit.

Yeah. So during this conversation, I felt I still needed to kind of zero in on one pinpoint. Because we thought I had to talk about narcissism and I said, it's very interesting how when I grew up it was a taboo, but with your generation it's like a celebration. And so I asked her, do you think you're beautiful? and she would giggle first and take her time to answer and I said, no, I'm seriously

do you think you're beautiful and she said yes and that moment I knew exactly what the film was going to be about and all that

years of developing was just like erased like vanished because now it was so clear what it all came to if if i empowered you to schedule this film with another film is a lovely double feature a nice sunday afternoon is there a film that you'd want to program this with outside of your own my initial vote after seeing it a couple times i thought let's go well with a moholland drive David Lynchess Mulholland Drive Oh, that's a great film What would I think? I would probably say

A great double feature with a Niant You would be pretty woman It's a different era But it's kind of a similar Topic in a way Much more similar Yeah Is

Well I'm curious I mean you're watching this film, I'm just fascinated by, I think I alluded to this earlier, kind of like the reactions of a crowd. And there's so much of the narrative about you, and I'm sure you're sick of it, is like the divisiveness of Nicholas Reffin's films. If you could change the narrative about yourself, or are you okay with that kind of narrative, that it's so much of the first paragraph in most articles about you is that love him or hate him, he's whatever he is. Is that something that you

kind of feel cool with, feel happy with, feel satisfied with, or would you want to change that kind of narrative? It makes me feel like a superstar. Because again, I guess going back to the kind of filmmakers we were talking about De Palma, Kubrick, all these people,

their films are all debated till the end of time. Picasso, Henry Miller. Their provocations. They're their singularity. Yeah. You know, it's, we got to, this good and bad thing, guys, get beyond it. Yeah.

Enjoy the experience. Or not. But you're going to react to it, baby. And that's what I'm here for. I want to mention a couple other of the actors in the film because I, something I, in watching it a second time is, I think it speaks well to what you've created here is I, I'd almost want to see films about half a dozen characters in this film. You know, whether it's Bella and Abby as these two supermodels from hell, like, they're amazing. They're just like, I mean, they're demons in their own right, right? Keanu Reeves, who is a king.

An icon. And I mean, I don't know, I don't know if you trade on that iconography or not, but like, undeniable, both times I've seen it, like, as soon as he steps into the frame, there's just like a moment from the audience of absorbing his presence. Um, is that something that's in your mind that like when you, you hire someone like Keanu Reeves, you know he brings a certain kind of preconceived baggage is the wrong word. But there, there's, there's weight to his, uh, his very presence. Oh, absolutely. It's a bit like having an unknown. So, like, you can treat it in a different way. Right. So it was a lot about how do I introduce him and how does you want to be used in the film. I mean, Canada is a wonderful actor, very smart, intelligent. sophisticated, very understands subtext, you can talk about hours, about multiple meanings of words.

So it's very inspiring to work with him. Yeah. And of course who he is, you know, he's one of the few pop culture icons that we actually have around us. I kept on everyday quoting John Wick when I would see him.

I always say, what was in that movie? They say everyone keeps asking if I'm back yeah I think I'm back and I thought that's fucking poetry man it's beautiful he's on the sequel I can't so it was great to have him around and we had a lot of fun with his opening dialogue

which is are you high I don't think we even wait do we see him at that point no he still shot through behind the door so good but that voice I've been trying to will into universe for years the Bill and Ted three Oh, my God, it has to happen. He wants it to happen, I think.

Oh, my goodness. It would be amazing. Is the red rum reference, an actual kind of like knowing reference to the Shining? Like there's a what? Red rum is mentioned when they're talking about lipstick in the bathroom. Oh, right. Not intently. Oh, okay.

Wow. Okay. But that's very nerdy of you. Well, I don't know. We're talking about Carr, talking Kubrick. We're talking red rum. I don't know. Did you fall in love in particular with any of these supporting characters where you start to daydream about what their story is beyond the frames of the film?

Yeah, of course. I mean, you know, else you can't love the characters. You have to kind of fantasize what's going to happen to them. I really liked working with Abby Lee a lot. I think that was a pretty cool experience, also because she is a true supermodel. Right. So, you know, there were so many things that you could do with her. And she had no problems taking off her clothes.

So it was a win-win. Are you inspired by filmmakers you meet at this point? I know you mentioned, and I'm a great admirer too. I think you caught up with Paul Verhoeven in Cannes, who's someone, like, dovetailing kind of our previous conversation, he's somebody that I feel like was able to negotiate that bringing that singularity when he did make what could have been compromises, seemingly, when he did things like Robocop and Starship Troopers. These are great pieces of art, I think, as well as popcorn entertainment.

They're beyond art. They're like institutions of our, you know, of our culture revolution. Is it good to, I mean, do you warn anything from interactions? Do you warn anything from meeting your cinematic heroes? or is it not so much the cinematic heroes it's more like

if I meet people that I like or I just usually tell them that I think they're pretty groovy I mean with Paul Verho

and we were at Cann and he was screening right after me in terms of the day after and I went up and I said to him that I wanted him to know

that I was a younger version of him and I wished him luck. What did he say? Gave me a kiss. It's a beautiful thing. And what about, you said some provocative things about Lars Rontreir back in

Cannes. I mean, how would you characterize your relationship, whether personally or just in terms of fellow filmmakers with Lars at this point? Well, I think he's a wonderful force of creativity. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But, I mean, it doesn't change the fact that he tried to get into the pants of my wife, which was not particularly

grovee when you're a raving drug addict. He's had some issues in the past. He's still seemingly working through. Do you have one film in mind that you want to do next that you're itching to do? I don't know. I think I want to do a spy movie.

Not James Bond. How nerdy have you to ask. Why not nerdy? I'm trying to will it into the existence, will it into the universe. What's the, can you say more? Teas me a little something? Bye.

Is Christina Hendricks the spy? Actually, that's a really good idea. I never thought of that. Gosling? I mean, that's a lifelong relationship, I feel like you and Ryan are going to be working together on and off for the years. Oh, yeah, no.

I mean, we had a wonderful surprise with him at the L.A. premiere. How's that? Like, he came out and did at the Hollywood Cemetery. Oh, yeah, Q&A. Yeah, he came out with me and Al, and we had to, it was a, you know, we know each other very well, so we have a wonderful routine. Amazing.

I feel sadly because I've had many great conversations with Ryan over the years, but I think he now blames me for the hey girl phenomenon because we once talked about it and it went viral in that way. I think I'm now the face he sees when he hears the words, hey girl. So please, the next time you see him, can you apologize for me? It's not my fault. I will. And you didn't mean it and you take it all back. I do. I just want, I mean, I'm such admiration in love. It all comes from a good place. Thank you so much for coming in today. As I said, I'm a tremendous admirer of your work. And I wish you all the best with this one. It's a special piece of work as all of the films of Nicholas Refiner, The Neon Demon. Check it out, guys.

Thank you. on rana and beverly we like to ask our guests the tough questions how old were you when your parents got depressed his brother's ways and raised him like nine did you see them date other people did you walk in on them with other people i never walked in thank god are they remarried each of them can i ask you a question were your breasts and her breasts the same size when you saw a woman of that age without a clothes on did you think that's not as bad as i thought it was gonna be i was only impressed i didn't know there were any black people in color Is it true?

This is a decent amount. Can you imagine the muscle on muscle in the bedroom for the two of them? Like, very acrobatic. Okay. Listen to Brianna and Beverly today on Earwolf. Jod.com, Howl, or your favorite podcast, yep. This has been an Earwolf production, executive produced by Scott Ackerman, Adam Sacks, and Chris Bannon. For more information and content, visit Earwolf.com.

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