Happy Sad Confused - Patrick Stewart, Vol. II

Episode Date: March 3, 2020

Talk about a guest who needs no introduction! The great Patrick Stewart returns to "Happy Sad Confused" this week to talk about his long journey playing Jean-Luc Picard, why he said no to bringing him back many times, and why "Star Trek: Picard" was too tantalizing an opportunity to pass up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Patrick Stewart returns to an iconic character with Star Trek Picard. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. This is one I've wanted to do for quite a while, which is not to say that Patrick hasn't done the podcast before. Yes. He was one of our very first guests nearly six years ago.

If you go back into the archives, that's still there. It's a great conversation. It's the audio quality. I was just checking it out. Maybe not so great, but the conversation was good. We've improved. We've made some improvements in the last six years. But the beauty of this conversation with Patrick Stewart is that it was an opportunity to talk at length with one of my favorite actors about one of my favorite characters and franchises, Star Trek. Star Trek is so close to my heart. I grew up with Star Trek. I watched all the series.

I went to have the conventions. I was obsessed. I still am. And to get a chance to talk to Patrick Stewart in nearly an hour-long conversation about that character, about the history of that character, about this new series,

about what that character and Star Trek has meant to him throughout his life. It was such an exciting opportunity I didn't think was going to come. But thankfully, Star Trek Picard is succeeding. It's a great series. It's on CBS All Access.

If you haven't checked it out, now is the time. I think there's six episodes in. I think I'm one ahead, so I still have a few to go. I think it's 10 episodes all in all. So we've still got a few more hours of Star Trek Picard to come. And the good news is they've already greenlit for season two. They're already talking about what's to come. There's some teases about that in this conversation.

This was just a delight. I mean, Patrick Stewart, I mean, he's got the stories, the perspective, and the voice to carry a podcast like no other man. This was a real treat. And I think you'll really appreciate this. If you're a fan of Star Trek or of just of great acting, you're going to enjoy this chat with Patrick Stewart. Other things to mention, well, there's a lot of good TV out there, guys. I caught up on a lot of stuff. I think I mentioned hunters on the last podcast.

I've now gone through all of Hunters. Then I switched to the other new Netflix series. So that's, I guess, an Amazon series. But the new Netflix series was Sophia Lillis. I really enjoyed. I'm not okay with this. That's a really easy watch. It's seven episodes.

They're all like 25 minutes and under. It's kind of a coming of age, teenage, a young, Y, A kind of story fused with a bit of superhero stuff. So that really worked for me. And then I watched some Netflix true crime because you can't go wrong with some true crime. I watched The Pharmacists, which was fascinating and a relatively short and easy watch.

So yeah, I'm catching up on stuff, guys, because right now movies are hit or miss right now. There's some good stuff out there, but for the most part, I feel like right now is the time to catch up on all the good TV, and then, like, the really good movies will hopefully start to come. And hopefully I'll see some of them. I'll be out at the South by Southwest Festival,

which is both a film and TV and comedy festival, but I'll be there for, on the film side, so I'll hopefully get a chance to see some good stuff there. So all of which is to say, there's a lot of good stuff out there, including Star Trek Picard and the other TV series I mentioned, as well as my own shenanigans for MTV and Comedy Central. I just did a new one. I mentioned the other day with Chris Pratt.

That should be up any minute now, if it's not up yet, on Comedy Central's YouTube channel. Check that out. That's a really fun bit of silliness. that we did with Chris Pratt to support his new Pixar film onward. So that's enough plugs, right? Oh, one more plug. I should mention this because we want to support Patrick and his family.

His wife, Sonny, has a great new album out. We should mention that, too. We didn't even get a chance to talk about his wife that's really opened him up to all these new experiences in recent years, and he's very proud of her and her new album. So check that out as well. That's about it, guys. That's my information before the main event,

okay? Remember to review rate and subscribe to Happy, Say, confused, spread the good word, and enjoy this chat with the legend that is Sir Patrick Stewart. Listen, if you've got the stomach to sit and listen to me, going on and on, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. It's your call. Okay, I'll hang over here, I'll be very quiet. Okay. This is the Dune Pat podcast, apparently we're going to talk for an hour about Dune.

I could do that. Oh, it was, I mean, it was the first. Actually, no, it wasn't. It was the second big movie I'd ever been in. The first one was in Scalibur, with a John Boulman movie, which filmed in Ireland. Yeah. We were in Mexico for five months. I would say you could tell from the screen that you were, that wasn't a two-week shoot. The sets must have been insane.

It must have been bananas. We waited for the big, triumphant ending when Kyle and me and a couple of other people, what's her name, I can't remember her name, actress. We were riding the worms into battle, these huge creatures that came through that. And we were in full fucking rubber suits. A nightmare, just sweating. We put them on, and they wouldn't let us take it off. They said, we don't know when we're going to need you.

So you've got to be ready to shoot. Two and a half days we sat waiting. Probably lost 10 pounds. You probably sweated it out. Sweated it off, yeah. I just remember you holding a cute little dog screaming. something like long-lived duclito. Again, this made an impression, Patrick.

But I reckon I worked like one day in ten. So I saw Mexico. There you go. There were some benefits. Well, Patrick Stewart is here. We're talking Dune. That could be a whole other podcast because that's a film I have a great affection for.

But the reason you're here today, it's like almost too insane for me to say, is that we're going to talk Star Trek, which probably a couple of years ago, if I had said that to you, you would have thought I was insane too. I would because this is not the first time that a proposal came to me about reviving the series or an associated version of the series or an animated version of the series, all of which I passed on because I felt that after seven years and 178 episodes and four feature films,

I had nothing more to say about Jean-Luc Picard, and I was perhaps alone in that. I think the rest of my beloved dear friends from that series would have liked to have gone on. Right. Seven years was enough time. And over the 18 years of the past since, I've always said, no, that's behind me I've moved on. What made a difference this time was when I saw that. the list of writer producers on the show. And it was awesome, Michael Schaubon,

Pulitzer Prize winner, Akiva Goldsman. Oscar winner. Oscar winner for a beautiful mind. Alex Kurtzman with a great track record of work that he's produced and directed. And Kirsten, Kirsten Byer, who is like the world's leading authority on, well, much science fiction, but certainly on Star Trek. And I felt just to say no to guys like that was insulting.

So I took a meeting with them on the understanding that I was going to pass, but I wanted to explain to them myself face-to-face. It was not because of them at all. On the contrary, it was a thrill sitting in a room with them, meeting them. but why I did not want to return. Did they come to you with, from what I gather, if they came to you with any kind of concept, it's not what we see on the screen here. It's not close to what you arrived at.

I think there's very little of the first pitch that I listened to about it. And then they very generously, once I'd absorb, some of the details of their of their plan. I then made my speech about this is why I'm saying no and then they said could we just have another hour of your time just to talk to you about some of the feelings that we have and how much we want your input in this and that without your input there would be no serious so we need you to contribute to this and I don't think that was the time they mentioned being a co-examined producer, something I had never been on any project before, but by the time that hour or two was over and they'd all talked, like they're all great talkers, I said to them, look, what you've said, some extraordinary things, and I'm intrigued, but could you please put it all on paper so that I can sit down and study it and think about it and, you know, who knows?

was maybe ask some questions. They did. And about 10 days later, I went back to see them again. And I said to them, you've got my attention. And then, but I said, however,

up front, I need to let you know about the things I do not want to do and the kind of stories I do not want to tell. That's what I was curious about. So, yeah, were there kind of like stipulations? Was there like no enterprise, no uniform, no, was there a certain list of those?

Yeah, yeah. The uniform particularly was very important to me because you see a photograph of Star Trek, you see a photograph, Jean-au-Bucat, I'm in uniform, even though there were episodes when I might have been in some kind of civilian or no clothes at all. One of them, when David... How many lights are there? Exactly. And that was a wonderful David Warner playing that role, who I had played a very small supporting

role when he did Hamlet with the Royal Shakespeare Company. So that was an exciting day for me. There were a lot of conditions. And I felt bad about making so many conditions because quite a few of them went against some of the ideas that they were pitching. I knew I did not want to create the next generation. It was not going to be a return to the same cast. enterprise or a new enterprise because I think Marina Sertis crashed the other one.

I seem to remember. Or maybe she crashed it twice. I was going to say, I think it was twice. I didn't want to. But at least you got a chance to fly it a couple of times. And certain themes that I didn't want to pursue. But most importantly, I talked about how the world, our world today, has changed in the 18 years since we wrapped Star Trek Nemesis, the final movie.

And also how my life had changed. And what was of interest to me now and what seemed important in the society that we live in. Because always, particularly during the third season when Gene very sadly and tragically left us died, and we missed him very much. But it meant that we began to tell the stories in slightly different ways. And with Rick Berman at the helm and the writers that he had, we were able to reflect more of our present day. Because it's one of the things about science fiction that, for me, anyway, I'm actually not a science fiction fan. This is now most commonly known, but I'm still a little uneasy about it.

Okay, you can say it loud and proud. We embrace you, nonetheless. I, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it, it, it, it's, it, it's, in 20 years time, or 300 years' time. And that I've always found fascinating. You know, being for many years of Shakespearean actor again and again on the rehearsal room floor, those of us who were so in love with Shakespeare and the Royal Shakespeare Company,

we would say, my God, this reads as if it was written today. Right. You know, and that's, and that's, one of the things we always thought was so remarkable about Shakespeare that he was writing for a 16th, 17th century audience. But the things he was writing about were contemporary. Human nature doesn't change. And yes, I think you hit upon two of the things

that I think are very clever of what you guys have done on Picard. You allude to the fact that it's reflecting our times. And yes, the Federation is not the Federation that we remember. It's more than isolationist body. And it's dealing with reprisis. And Starfleet is not Starfleet. Exactly. Either.

And then the other aspect that you also allude to is, I mean, this came after Logan. And I think that's the last time I spoke to you and Hugh for Logan. And I don't think it's any coincidence that between Logan and Picard, we're seeing arguably two of your, you know, most recognizable characters now dealing with age and dealing with, in a real, in a truly realistic fashion, much more than we're accustomed to in these kind of genre pieces. So I guess, did the experience on Logan inform a bit of how you approached this one or what you wanted to see in this one?

Massively. In fact, I talked at length about Logan. All of our associate producer writers had seen it and knew what I was talking about. But I was able to articulate to them why Logan became the most important element. of the X-Men franchise for, I think, both Hugh as well as myself. Here were these two characters. We had got to know so well and how they lived and what was important to them,

how their lives were structured, all abandoned, all thrown away. The world was different. I mean, there was Logan, Wolverine, driving around in a shitty, dirty old limo in Santa Fe and Juarez and he was only doing it so he could keep Charles Xavier in medications which were expressive and there was Charles Xavier in this nasty old wheelchair living apparently on an upside down oil tank so far as we could tell covered in rust and dirt, and out of his mind,

crazy ranting children's nursery rhymes and jingles that he'd watched on television because, yeah, there was a little black and white TV in the oil tank, and also dangerous, unpredictable, and physically, although he was handicapped, very handicapped physically. Nevertheless, there was a kind of... A lack of control, a lack of control, a rage, a fury that was out of control in him.

And so I talked about this and I said, look, I am not asking you to write another Logan for next generation. But I'm telling you that these were the elements that drew me back so enthusiastically to what became for you and myself, our last. a last outing in X-Men. Well, the idea of taking risks too and both risks thematically and aesthetically. I mean, I think that's also an important choice that Logan looked different than any X-Men film. And Picard doesn't, it's not the warm next generation glow

that we felt. It's not a safe environment. As edgy as next generation could get, it was kind of always very, it felt like home to the audience, I feel like. Well, the enterprise was a home. Yeah. And the crew were a family.

a family who cared deeply about one another as well as the world and the galaxy and other galaxies outside. But the thrill for me was watching Alex and Michael and Akiva and Kirsten take on board in an excited and stimulated way the kind of things that I had been talking about.

And, you know, it was evident from the opening shots of the series that that was how it was going to be. Here we had a man, yeah, living on his beautiful vineyard back in France, growing grapes, making wine, being looked after by two gorgeous people who just happened to be Romulan, which there was a... Already there was a huge contrast there to the relationship we'd had with Romulan. in the past, and yet he was clearly not happy. There was a scene which never quite made it into the opening of the film,

where I was yelling abuse at some of the vineyard workers in French, because it would have to, I want to, I don't think I spoke a word of French in the original series. And clearly somebody who was trying to, troubled, even disturbed maybe, and discontented with the life he led and, and acknowledging that he made, he had made choices that were bad ones. Jean-Luc Picard, making bad choices. Inconceivable. So that built up a base for us to work from, and it's what gave me a fascinating five, six months

of shooting. So the reception to this has been over the moon. I mean, you can't ask for a better critical and commercial reception. You've been renewed for a second season. I assume you guys are probably hard at work already in cracking the story of the second season. We are. So I guess this has to feel like a much different kind of experience than next gen.

And virtually every respect, you're at a different stage of your life. You have different wants and needs and interests. What surprised you about sort of this journey? the reception, has it gone sort of according to your best laid plans, or has it surprised you in some ways? We knew that we were taking risks, and I think that was one of the reasons why in the original pitch that I heard, there were overlaps with next generation, and I think that was because they seriously felt that without those overlaps, we might not make it.

as a new look at Star Trek. Yeah. We were gambling and yet I was so excited by that gamble in exactly the same way that I've been excited by Logan. And we, no, let me take myself out of this. An extraordinary cast was assembled, a cast of outstanding talent, and diversity, because we are living in a very different world, societally now than we were back in the 80s and the 90s. So it was a gamble.

It was not quite a toss of a coin, but I felt from beginning with the writers we had, the directors we had, and the cast that I saw, I was only involved in the casting of Issa Briolnes. When she came in for her final audition and reading, I was there and I read with her. Because Issa came to us from the North American tour of Hamilton. That's what she was doing when we met her first. And I don't think she had done much work quite like this.

Well, you've seen how that has turned up. seen how that has turned out. I mean, she's done extraordinary work, playing actually three characters, three versions of herself. And the rest of the cast we have are amazing. And already I'm in love with all of them as I was with the next generation cast. And I actually, you know, I've had a few months break now, but I want to begin again. I am so ready to start. But it's several months away. So I've seen, I think I'm one episode ahead as we, as we, as we, speak now, so I still have a few more to go before the conclusion of the season. Without, obviously, ruining where the season ends, like, is there a mandate in your own mind a thematic

thing you want to explore in season two? What's season two going to look like versus season one? Very different. And without, it's impossible to discuss it without leaking information, which may not even come about, you know, because one of my experiences of being in the writer's room, which I had never been before as co-executive producer, I had sufficient reasons for being there. I love those experiences. I rarely opened my mouth,

but I listened to the dialogue that would flash across that big table in the writers' room where we worked. And I was dazzled by, I was dazzled by the ideas they threw out You know I mean one writer would pursue an idea And talk about it and talk about it

And I would begin to, yes This is it And then something would come up But if what it No no forget it I'm saying no wait That's not totally discarded But that was the tone

And that is the tone with which I can't say we Because again I'm not I'm not writing But they are looking at season two it has an astonishing theme in it and quite how we will connect to the last episode i don't really know probably not a lot but the last episode it ends well it looks as though it's not going to but it does. And so I'm already intrigued by some of the things that are drifting across my computer screen.

Are there other, obviously, part of the joy in the season has been sort of like, you know, the most recent episode I just saw, we get to see Jonathan and Marina, get to see you interact with Jerry, these old familiar characters. Is it safe to say that in season two we might see other next gen or Deep Space Nine or Voyager characters we haven't seen before? It is more than possible, and I'm excited about that too. It is my hope, if there is a third season as well,

that by the time that ends, we will have encountered our friends from next generation, all of them in one form or another, because their lives have changed, too. We can see that in Seven of Nine, in Jerry's character. She's not the same. same person that she was in the series, not at all.

So are you thinking about it as three seasons? Is that the... It's, you know, it's too early to say. I don't want to chance fate by talking about that. But at the moment, the, and I wanted to go back to this, something you said earlier, the response has been glorious and not just here in normal. America or in the UK or in Europe, but worldwide, our following our fan base in Asia is huge. And I had never thought that it particularly was when we were shooting next generation.

There is now a worldwide passion, not to say obsession, with Star Trek and Star Trek Picard, particularly. And that's very exciting, you know. I've been touring a little bit, promoting this, and mostly in Europe, because I have a problem with long distance flying these days, it really messes me up. I'm with you, don't worry. When people say to me, you know, what aspect of Star Trek would you like to have to take? A transporter, please give me a transporter unit, I'll go anywhere then. And now, as you've seen in this series, we have.

transporters now that people have them in their living room, right? I would kill for that. I've always said, I mean, I fly quite a bit for work too, and I still have a bit of a fear of flying. I would give up any desert, anything in the world, just to never worry about air travel again. It's just, it's always going to be there, but it's a necessary evil, I guess. If you'll indulge me, I want to go back a little bit in the history of, with this character. So like, when you started out playing Picard, was there a choice that you made that in retrospect, really has informed the character especially over these 35 years, et cetera,

that was or wasn't in the script when you think back to the early days? Oh yes, that was one in particular. And to talk about this in this way would seem to be grandiose and overblown and self-advertising. I asked the question, it's okay. I brought it on.

I think by the time we were into the third season of Next Generation, I had begun to become aware that there were elements of Jean-Luc Picard that actually had nothing to do with Jean-Luc Picard, but it had a lot to do with Patrick Stewart. And I'd never worked like this before. I'd always seen myself from the age of 19 when my professional career began as a character actor. You know, I was never a juvenile. I was never a juvenile lead. I was never a classic leading man type. So I'd always been putting myself into someone else, but the kind of interest that I developed in watching other actors, particularly American actors who are so brilliant

at doing this, but of exploring where a character lived inside myself. And if those two things could merge and so that there were aspects of Patrick Steuers that I could tap and hopefully give some deeper authenticity to what people were seeing on their screens. And I now believe in that as a method and as a way to go. And not just with Picard at all, but for several years now, which included Logan, as well as several other films that I've made in the meantime, I have been experimenting with that aspect of an actor's work, of how can you internalize it, and still communicate it in a vivid and interesting and unusual way.

Why did it take? Because, I mean, you know, you were probably in your late 40s, what, when you started playing? 46. So that's relatively late to kind of discover like a much different way to approach the work. And you clearly had a lot of accomplishments to then. So you were doing, you had a technique that was working for you. Do you remember why you felt like it was time to open yourself up to a different paradigm, a different method?

Security is one of the things. And knowing that I was safe and an increasing belief that this was a job I really could do. My brilliant director of my acting school, which I graduated from in 1959, a man called Bill Ross, Duncan Ross, who ended up teaching and running the Seattle repertoire theatre. He called me into his office towards the end of my two years of training just before I graduated. And he gave me a pretty tough talk, things that were hard to hear, and I even thought at one point that he was going to say, so I don't think there's any point you're staying with this any longer, and I was readying myself for that, and then he said, but look, I think you do good work, you can do even better work,

but this is what you have to remember. You will never achieve success by ensuring against failure. oh man you know what a big concept that was ensuring against failure yes yes i went home that night and thought he's right of course that's something that's stamped so much of the work that i've done being careful well and i know you're a big sports fan so i feel like it's like the notion of playing defense instead of exactly and in fact funny you should mention that but i was a passionate soccer player and a fan and I always played defence and I love

playing defence. I never got across the halfway line in most of the soccer games that I played and I was pretty rough. Very unfortunately actually broke someone's leg and then word reached me that

they were going to take there was going to be a price to be paid for that and that's when I gave up playing soccer I thought my acting career is more important. Right, no broken bones. No, no broken bones at all. And I say in the street, a young guy stopped me only a couple of days ago

and said, I don't want to hold you up. I swear, I'm a fan and I watch what you do. I'm just beginning as an actor. I'm right at the start of my career. Is there one thing you could say, you could tell me? And it's always the same thing that I say to them now because it took me so long to learn it. Fearlessness, you have to be almost recklessly brave, I think. And if you can do that, the chances are you will do original work, personal work,

and work that will grip people who are watching. Because when you do that and you actually, I mean, there's this, there's this movement. out at the moment now, Deepwater with Mark Ruffalo. Yeah. You watch that performance of Marx. It is extraordinary. It is very quiet, very calm, but very much internalized. And he is living that role.

So, I mean, I don't think I ever sat back in my seat for the entire movie. I was just so captivated by the power of that performance. So that's what I say to young actors because I wish wish I played Henry the 5th when I was 23 I played Oberon when I was 23. I had some great roles. Oh, the

opportunities I missed by not being braver. It's funny but in looking back at some old interviews it sounds like what you always appreciated whether you knew it or not. I mean, I know a formative experience for you was seeing on the waterfront and I can only imagine seeing

Brando and even Marie Saint and Carmel Those are performances that are electric, that, like, anything can happen. I knew that then. So why couldn't I put it into my work? I saw that movie three times in one week. I even took my poor mother to watch it who had no idea what was going on. And I knew that I was watching a different kind of work.

Before that, you know, it was Rock Hudson and Tab Hunter and Doris Day. I love Doris Day. And then suddenly life was on the scene. And I began to think, was there a script? Or are these guys improvising all the time? Because it was so natural, so spontaneous, so of the moment. Why could I not say, I want to do that? You got that.

Partly because nobody asked me. It was not until, oh, I don't know what the year was when a director cast me in a Shakespeare play that's not very well-known or popular called The Winter's Tale. And it was to play a horrendous character. He murders his wife, his child is killed by him. And Dan Peggy Ashcroft said to me

when she heard that the R.S.C. had offered me this, she said, don't do it. Please don't do it. I can tell you, I have known several actors who've played this role, and they've all hated it. He is such an unpleasant and vile man but the director said to me look um this guy lives inside you uh this was a wonderful director he's inside you i know he is and with your approval and support i want to find him and watch you bring

him out and he also said because he was also a psychiatrist this director i promise you that if you take this gamble, I will be at your side every single moment or reachable anywhere, anywhere in the world at any time, if things go wrong for you or if it gets difficult. And an American friend of mine, a Shakespeare scholar from UCLA, said to me, after he'd seen the production for the third time, he said, you know, you would have had much more success in this role. I had an okay success, But he said, if we had not felt that we shouldn't be watching, that something too private was happening on stage, and we ought not to be there.

Well, that scared me a little bit, but at the same time, it allowed me to inhabit the life of this guy in a way that I thought was worth doing. I want to jump into the Star Trek movies. You got a chance to do four of them, your cast. First Contact, I take it as your favorite. I mean, it's most Stodrick fans' favorite. It's just works. So what do you think worked about first contact? What was the right call in that one that elevated it above the three others, you think? Frank's directing it. Yeah. He's a

terrific director, and he creates an atmosphere on the set, which actually brings about exactly what I've been talking about just now. And also, we have so much fun. And, you know, until I worked with these people on Star Trek, I didn't know that acting could be fun as well. I thought it was deadly serious, you know, and you don't have a good time. You know, you suffer. That means you're doing it wrong. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You must be.

I, and I loved what happened to Picard in that, and that there was an opportunity to examine him in conditions under circumstances that we'd never seen. scene before. Right. Also had the opportunity to, you know, sometimes I feel like it's difficult, at least it used to be maybe the back of the day to attract kind of like a certain caliber of actor to Star Trek. I think to some, it probably felt like an Albatross. It felt like something that didn't, wasn't worthy of them. And in that film, you were fortunate enough to get Alphrey and James Cromwell. Oh, so fortunate. And again, that was Jonathan who brought, who wanted those acts and he had worked with Alfred before and brought her in and she was fantastic, as was James.

It's... Yeah, like, have you ever had to... I'm curious, like, from your position, have you ever gone out to try to convince actors that were hemming and hawing or a name director that you were considering for one of the next generation movies?

Did you ever try to convince anybody to get involved and who might have had a Star Trek prejudice, a worry that it was going to... No. No. I was dismayed when we were making the movies,

my suggestions about directors were, on the whole, not received well. There were directors I'd worked with in the past. I mean, David Lynch was one of them. Did he suggest David Lynch? I did, yeah. Was there one particular film that he would have been up for? I think that would have been number three.

So, insurrection. Yes, I think that was it. I would like to say, I mean, with respect to Jonathan, I would love to see David Lynch Star Trek Insurrection. Me too. I'm, I love his work. It's extraordinary. But there was only one instance where something like that happened, but it happened the other way around.

I, we had wrapped Nemesis, Star Trek was behind me. I had done this movie, Jeffrey, when I said to my agent, just bring me something far away from Star Trek as possible. No space, no suits, no uniforms, and this wonderful script of Jeffrey turned up, and I loved that so much. But then there was the role I was pursuing in a very good movie, which had an outstanding director attached to it. And it was a smallish supporting role.

but I'd read the script and I thought this is for me. So I finally got in to see the director and oh, God, it was a challenge getting in to see him. And we met in the meeting was very pleasant and he said finally. He said, look, I like your work. You're a good actor, but why would I want Jean-Luc Picard in my movie? So your worst nightmare probably isn't it? Oh, can you imagine what that felt like? that I was suddenly at liberty to do anything I wanted to do

and I was being told no because you're Jean-Luc Picard that's not going to happen it was very difficult so from that time I have diversity has been as well as quality of writing because if the scripts are not good there's only so much that you can do to make them better but something I look for and everything that I undertake

that I have never done before. Even sometimes things that scare me a little bit. There's a script I'm looking at right now. Ooh, that scares me, but I've got to do it because I've never done it before. Yeah. Well, and we've talked to, I remember the last time you were on the podcast, we talked at length about the way that extras opened up

a whole new side of your career, the comedy side of your career is obviously a whole, like you could live off that the rest of your life and enjoy yourself. But yes, I mean, I remember in the wake of Star Trek conspiracy theory. You played a couple great villains for a while, and then, yes, comedy opens up,

and then you kind of come full circle in these older characters. It's amazing to watch sort of the way a career can be so unpredictable. I mean, you have some choice, but so much of it is out of your control too, right? Yes. And aging is one aspect of it.

And I'm having to embrace aging and add it to the pot of who, Patrick Stewart is, you know, I have to, I mean, you saw in episode one that was seen when I ran up a flight of stairs and they said, it's okay, we've got a stunt double who's going to do this for you. And I said, please, let me do it just once. And I won't break a leg. Let me just see if I can do it. And it worked out. Again, the broken legs were on the soccer field. The, so in the wake of nemesis, so at the start of our conversation, you talked to. about sort of after Nemesis feeling like, okay, I've said what I had to say for this character. That being said, I mean, I think you would agree with me. Nemesis was probably not the high point

for the Star Trek film series, the Star Trek series. No. Was there, I mean, I've read different things. I've read that John Logan had another idea for a film that involved like a rogues gallery of villains. Is that something you remember? Is that something? I do.

I do. I think he and Brent Spiner had been working on an idea. and there was, it included, at least Brent's version of it, it included every single leading actor who had ever appeared in Star Trek at that point would be, would be, that everyone will be brought together for one last final desperate attempt to write the universe, you know.

That's why it's so lovely that Jerry says in the first scene in the year, you're still trying to save the universe, Piscard, which is, which I love because it kind of stands outside the episode as well, because that's what, that's how people viewed him, but she made a joke out of it. It's a prerequisite for a captain of an enterprise. That's right. One of your side pursuits is always liking to save the universe. That's right.

So was there any sense in the wake of Nemesis that at that time, if I talked to you after that, were you resolute that that was it? Or did you feel like this is not the way I want to go out? I was intrigued by John and Brent's ideas and I'm really disappointed that we didn't have a chance to bring them to the screen they were terrific Logan is a wonderful writer

and it it was frustrating it would have been so in a sense I think and I'm thinking this for the first time maybe taking on Picard and laying down certain conditions of what I needed from this was trying to turn the clock back a little bit to those conversations with John Logan and Brent Spiner about the next Star Trek project and how different it could possibly be. Yeah, because during the series, you're obviously the lead of that series, but did you feel like you had some power, some, like were you able to influence the arc of Picard or the arc of that series when next generation was happening? What were you talking to the writers about

with Rick Berman, et cetera? Yes, I did increasingly feel that. It took a long time before I could take on board. I have always talked about next generation as being presented by an ensemble. I never ever wanted to think of myself as the leading man or as the lead character, or anything like that.

And that remains today, my first. philosophy, Star Trek Picard is an ensemble. I was struck by that when I saw it. I mean, it didn't need to be that. I mean, it's enough to sell it on your name. And yet, you have really surrounded yourself with, and many, as you said, many actors I've never seen before. It's kind of exciting.

You're going to see them a lot of them in the years ahead. I know it, absolutely. It's one of the advantages of being my age that you can look at young talent and see. see how it is now, but then you become aware of the potential that lies behind it. And you know, I've, Evan Evagoria, he and I have had several conversations about this, and it's with him that I've talked about, you know, take risks. Right. Yeah, this is the opportunity to do that.

And then I walk on the set and I see him doing that. as well. It's, it's, it's, it's another level of satisfaction of doing what we do. And I'm sure that some people listening to this podcast, to this conversation, would say, you know, what a load of crap he's talking and, you know, this is bullshit. Another instance of actors being obsessed with themselves. But I, I saw play yesterday afternoon. I saw Matt and he ever play. And, uh, Some of the, well, most of the acting work in that play was extraordinary. It's at the Atlantic Theatre, and it's called The Story of a Suicide, I think is the name of it. And it's really three stories literally intertwined.

I mean, they talk at the same time and they overlap, and sometimes they say exactly the same words. but there are one, two, three plays happening in front of you. Every moment of the play, and it was an extraordinary experience to sit in the audience, not knowing what was going to come next. And yet the courage of those actors taking on something so challenging because they had to be technically so tuned in to what was happening as well as creating a real living person on this. It still remains for me, as I say, like watching Mark Ruffalo in Dark Waters.

The most thrilling element that I can see in actors I'm on stage with, in front of the camera with, or sitting in a cinema or sitting on my sofa at home watching. Would King Lear on stage be such a risk for you? Is that something that I know you've mentioned it in the past? It's on the table right now. I have not said this publicly before. But there's one person I want to direct it. In fact, I don't really think that I would want to do it really with anyone else.

And I sat down the other afternoon. I had to go out and buy a copy of King Lear because. Because I had it, I have the whole, the whole complete works of Shakespeare as an app. But I didn't want to reason, I needed a book, I wanted to turn pages, you know. And luckily, book soup, they had a copy of King Rear. And it's scared the wits out of me. I had some ideas for the first couple of scenes. And then it got into the big stuff, the verbal battles, the storm on the moor,

the tearing off of all his clothes. Oh, man. But I think I'll have to do it because if I don't, you know, how am I going to live with myself after that? And we've had a lot of great kinglyers. My dear buddy, Ian McCallan, gave his second Kinglayer last year, and it was extraordinary. And Glenda Jackson recently played King Lear. Oh, and I didn't see it, and I wanted to see it so much. So I've got to find the right place, the right location, and the right, you know, that's why there is this one director who I worked with several times on

both film and stage. And he is brilliant. And I know that I would be safe with him. We're keeping that name under wraps for now. Yeah. Okay, fair enough. You've given enough of yourself to me today. It's okay.

Now, wait, have we lost you from New York for a bit? Because Picard, as great as Picard is, it doesn't shoot here, clearly. You're not shooting that in Brooklyn. So do you still consider yourself a New Yorker? What's the plan? Well, we have recently bought a house in Los Angeles. Patrick, no.

I know. But we are still living. We have an apartment in Brooklyn. I love Brooklyn. Oh, God, what an extraordinary place to be living. But at the moment, work is focusing much more on the West Coast than it is here. And I have to say, the relief with which I stepped out of doors into Brooklyn this morning to find that the temperature was going to be 58 today and not 34 or whatever it had been

or with, you know, with the wind impacted, we're going to be down in the 20s. Because of my age, I've got to think that California might just take a little more care of me than perhaps Brooklyn. If California allows you to do more great work for us, for you to entertain us more and live a happier life, then I guess I support it. But I'm crying a little bit inside. Lastly, I'll let you go. But a couple of collaborators that you've worked with in recent years, is there any chance have you talked about collaborating with? I don't have to see you in McAvoy work on something together. Or are you and Hugh in a different capacity?

Oh, I have a project for Hugh. Yeah. Yep. Theater or film? Theater. And there are conditions attached to this as well. But now Hugh is, as we see every Sunday in the New York Times, that he's preparing to shoot Music Man,

which I cannot wait to see. In the years that I've known Hugh from when he came in as a replacement actor, we were on set shooting when he came into audition. And as I've said before, he came back from the audition. We'd all met him, we'd sat around, and we all said, what a nice guy. Really great gay, you know, go well. He came back and he said, well, you guys are never going to see me again. He said, and then they said, Mr. Jackman, would you mind just coming back there?

They won't have another talk with you. And there it was the phenomenon that his Hugh Jackman was created. Clearly an amazing actor because he's the nicest man on the planet. I have a project I am passionate to do with Hugh, and it was. would be a stage project, and it will be on Broadway. But, I'm sorry, this is very embarrassing, but you mentioned another actor. Oh, James McAvoy. James, yeah.

Who I know is maybe your biggest fan next to me. He'll say yes to anything that you want to do with him, so you might want to think about it. Hey, you know, actors, all we do, all we remember are the negative things. I can remember the first review I ever got because it said, and as so and so and so, Patrick Stewart was barely adequate. I was 14. And it crushed me.

And I remembered the very words from the review, barely adequate. John McAvoy was doing an interview, and they said, so how do you feel about stepping into Patrick Stewart's shoes? And James said, I'm going to bury. him. He said, I know enough about James and admire him enough to know that it was a joke. Yes, he's a madman. It was a joke, wasn't it? It definitely was. Yeah, yeah. Okay. He said it because he loves you so much. He's intimidated by you. Well, I would love to do more work with James on stage because he's a tour of a stage actor as well as well as film. Apparently, he's just wrapping up

Cyrano that's been very well received in London. I think I'm going to miss it. I can't get there any time. Yeah. There's not enough time for all of it, Patrick. We're doing our best. But But it's always such a distinct honor to talk to you about film and television and theater and to talk about something that's so close to my heart growing up, Star Trek, and I know close to your heart, it makes this day all the more special. There is one irony about our conversation this morning that when I leave here, I'm going to a meeting. And it is a meeting about writing an autobiography.

I mean, a serious meeting for the... It's come up. before, like Sartre, it used to come up time to time, and I'm going to go and talk to people who have an offer to make, and it's very challenging. I don't

know how I feel about it, but I'm going to listen and listen, and maybe I can get some help. You've got stories to tell, and wisdom to impart us, as evidenced by our hours we spent together. It's more than stories, though. It's, you know, I want to do something that, I want to write

about my family and my childhood and I don't know if I can but we haven't even touched upon that but all the great work you've done on behalf of domestic violence is really inspiring as well and I know that's something that connects to your childhood so that's for another conversation on another

day it is thank you very much I've enjoyed this so much and so ends another edition of happy sad confused remember to review rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. You want to tell him? Or you want me to tell him? No, no, no. I got this. People are. out there. People, lean in, get close, get close. Listen, here's the deal. We have big news.

We got monumental news. We got snack-tacular news. Yeah, after a brief hiatus, my good friend, Michael Ian Black, and I are coming back. My good friend, Tom Kavanaugh and I are coming back to do what we do best. What we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack. To eat a snack. And to rate a snack. scientifically, emotionally, spiritually, mates his back. Mike and Tom eat snacks. is back. A podcast for anyone with a mouth.

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