Happy Sad Confused - Patty Jenkins

Episode Date: December 16, 2020

She's got the most anticipated Christmas movie about to drop, a Star Wars movie up next, and a world of opportunities beyond so there's a lot for Josh and filmmaker Patty Jenkins to cover in this chat. Jenkins gets candid about why she almost walked away from the "Wonder Woman" sequel, her disappointment in WB's plan to release all of their movies next year on HBO Max, and how a rarely discussed accident almost ended her career (and life) before it all kicked into another gear. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, filmmaker Patty Jenkins, on the movie everyone is talking about this holiday season, Wonder Woman 1984. Hey guys, I'm Josh Harowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I said it before, I'll say it again. We are in the midst of a very cool little run of filmmakers. here on Happy Say I Confused, if you checked out the podcast last week. Christopher Nolan was the guest.

That got obviously a lot of attention for his favorite Fast and Furious movie. I was going to say I wasn't expecting that, but as soon as he said Tokyo Drift, I was kind of expecting that would be the thing that travels. But there's a lot more to that conversation. If you've only seen that headline, I highly recommend if you're a fan of film in general and Christopher Nolan specifically check out that conversation. But we continued this filmmaker run on this episode with another fantastic conversation with someone that I truly admire the work she's doing all throughout her career.

There was sadly a large gap between films, between Monster, her film debut, which earned Charlie's Theron, of course, her Academy Award, and then Wonder Woman a few years back. Well, thankfully, it's only been a couple years since Wonder Woman came out, and Patty Jenkins is back with Wonder Woman 1984. Of course, it is out in theaters and on HBO Max on Christmas Day. You've probably heard the early reviews. This is a very satisfying, fun movie that if you love the first Wonder Woman, I think you're going to love this one too, Galgado. Again, amazing. The chemistry between her and Chris Pine, fantastic. Pedro Pascal is hysterical and fun and just going for it. Kristen Wigg works. It's just a big fun piece.

of entertainment and a bright spot in what's been a dark year. So I highly recommend you check it out as if you needed my endorsement. So some context around this conversation. I got a chance to see Wonder Woman 1984 relatively early. I was told I was essentially the first person outside of the production to see the film, which felt like a big weight on my shoulders, to be honest. I was like, oh my God, what if I don't like it? This is a lot.

What if my wife is shooting it on her iPhone? she would never do that. But it felt like a big deal. And thankfully, I did enjoy it. And soon thereafter, I spoke to Patty in one of her first conversations about the film. And you could tell it was a weight lifted off of her shoulders to finally be able to talk about this movie. Because it was so early, it was prior to the news that just broke a couple days ago that Patty Jenkins is going to be directing the next Star Wars film, Rogue Squadron, which is just amazing. If you haven't seen the video that Star Wars, Star Wars social media posted of her announcing it, it's a kind of a really touching, a touching piece of video that explains why

she is connected to this material so much. And I know she's going to be amazing as the next Star Wars filmmaker. So we obviously don't get into that in this conversation. But we get into a hell of a lot of other stuff. We talk a lot about Wonder Woman 1984. There are no spoilers in this. I mean, nothing that's going to spoil the movie at all. But we talk a lot about the themes of the movie, what brought her back, the things she wanted to see in a Wonder Woman sequel, the casting of Pedro Pascal and Kristen Whig. And also looking to the future, perhaps. You know, she's a little bit ambivalent about where Wonder Woman goes next. And if it includes her or not, especially given, I think, what I didn't know at the time,

which is that she's going to be directing a Star Wars movie. But I think also, frankly, relations with the studio. And it's, you know, you've heard the comments from Christopher Nolan on my podcast and other places. You've heard Patty talk about this, and you're going to hear her talk about it more on this podcast. There are tensions between Warner Brothers and the filmmakers that they have cultivated there because of this ginormous decision to put not only Wonder Woman 1984, which at the time felt like a one-off, but they've made this announcement that the next year, 2021, all of their releases are going to be released on HBO Max simultaneously for a month. That's big movies. That's Matrix. That's Dune.

So you can sense from these conversations, these filmmakers are ambivalent, all of which is to say, I don't know if Patty Jenkins is going to direct the next Wonder Woman movie. I don't think she knows either, but she does talk a little bit about her intentions going forward, the Amazon spin-off film that she has in mind and a little bit of a tease there. We go back in time and talk a little bit about the Thor movie she was going to direct way back when. And also fascinating, we go way back, and this is a story that's not all. often told about Patty Jenkins, but I know it from my history with her, this kind of crazy debilitating accident that she had right before she shot Monster. And it's really interesting to hear her talk about what a big moment that was in her life and career and how the two kind of coincided. There's a fun symmetry to this chat with Patty because I first spoke to Patty Jenkins

15 years ago for a book I was doing at the time called The Mind of the Modern Movie Maker. You haven't heard of it because it sold, I think, maybe 50 copies, maybe 500. I don't know. It wasn't a bestseller, but I'm very proud of it because it brought me into contact with filmmakers such as Patty Jenkins. And it was fun to go back and look at that conversation and kind of remind Patty of her comments back then and what she still believes, how far she's come, et cetera. So this was a fun conversation for many, many different reasons. A couple other things to mention in the Josh Horowitz podcasting and entertainment world.

New Star Crazy episode this week. We've got Wonder Woman 1984, clearly on the brain, because Pedro Pascal is the guest on this week's Star Crazy on Comedy Central's YouTube and Facebook pages. One of my honest to goodness

favorite episodes we've done. He is so charming, so delightful, so game. It was fantastic to talk to him. So I highly recommend you checking that out if you're a Wonder Woman fan, a Pedro Pascal fan, a Mandalorian fan,

or just a fan of silly comedy. Check it out. Also, check out this podcast that I've been listening to because not only is it a good podcast, but I'm going to be appearing on it very soon. It's called The Wake Up, and it's basically a daily news roundup of everything you need to know in Hollywood, in the social media world. And the beauty of it is, it's from my friend, Sean McNulty. He does it all in about five to ten minutes. So it's a great digest of sort of just like the quick hits, what you need to know to go about your day and feel in the know in the media Hollywood landscape, a really cool podcast that he started just relatively recently. I highly recommend it the wake-up. And I'll also mention it because I'm going to be

appearing on it very soon. So look forward to an episode where I'll be chatting with Sean. I don't know what wisdom I have, but hopefully he'll pull it out of me and you guys will enjoy it. That's upcoming on his podcast, The Wake Up. Look at that little podcast synergy. for all of you guys out there. All right, let's get to the main event. You know the drill. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to Happy, Sad, Confused, spread the good word,

and enjoy this chat with the wonderful filmmaker that is Patty Jenkins. I've been looking forward to this for a while. Patty Jenkins, welcome to the Happy Sadden Fused Podcast. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So congratulations on Wonder Woman 1984. I have to tell you,

there was a lot of pomp and circumstance. going into me seeing this film. I was told, I'm like, one of the first people to get this chance to see it. And I don't know if you have this feeling when, like, you want to love something going in and you're like, please don't film me. Don't, like, you know.

Oh, my God, all the time. Totally. It's terrifying. Yeah, totally every time. I'm like, I remember it happened to me when I went to go see Hamilton. I was like, surely. What if I'm the one?

That's, yeah. Surely it can't be. And I remember as it started, I was like, God damn, I'll bet you this is going to end up being. And then cut to me at the end, just sobbing and like, It's a masterpiece, like so, so happy and relieved.

Well, you'll be relieved to know that I love this film. This really is big and emotional and yet remarkably different from the first one, yet satisfying in the right way. So congratulations. I know it's been a long road for you. Thank you. Talk to me a little bit about, I mean, obviously, these are insane circumstances this last year. Your film has been done for quite a while. Talk to me about, like, when did you walk this movie?

Have you been tweaking this movie? or is it essentially the movie that it was, like, nearly a year ago? It's literally the movie that it was. We finished, finished the movie in the end of January, February. I was literally went back. We had finished it in December, and then because we knew we had a little time, I did fiddle with it before the pandemic.

I, like, fiddled with this and that. But then we rescored it and, like, finished doing that. And I flew to England to work with Hans and, you know, fiddle with the score a little bit. And I was there when the pandemic started hitting. And so I was sitting there looking at the news and saying to everybody, you guys, you guys, we're all getting this now. So I got to go because I had my son with me and I was like, I got to go.

They're going to start locking stuff down. I got to get out of here. So we literally finished our sound mix. And then I did one day remotely back from the States and then boom, went into quarantine. And so that's why it's so weird. You know, like there was no every single thing that's supposed to happen when you finish a film, vacation, relaxation, celebration, wondering what people think, good or bad, nothing, dead silence. So it's been so weird, so, so weird. And the entire year, I've just been

cooking and cleaning and going and watching the film by myself every, you know, twice a week because I have to approve the IMAX version and the Dolby Vision version and the 5-1 mix and the 7-1 And so I just watch it over and over and over and over and over again by myself. And that's it. So weird. For you, thankfully. Yes. Thank God.

Talk to me a little bit about, I mean, the only thing harder maybe than an origin story for a hero is coming up with a worthy continuation. Sequels are a tough nut to crack. Talk to me about, did you like have guidelines, goalposts, rules in your head about what you wanted to do going into a continuation of this story? Yes. I did. The first one was we're not doing more of the same. Like more of the same, like what I think every film you make, you have to aim to make a masterpiece of something that you don't understand what it is exact. So that you've never seen or experienced, right? So the first thing I said to everybody was, this is not a sequel. And then that actually carried into the press

and stuff. And I was like, no, of course, it's technically it's not, we're not rebooting it. I'm saying you can't, don't approach this like a sequel. We are taking. a character who's had many great stories told about her, and we're taking all of our characters and all of the timeline. We are making a whole new film. So it has to be absolutely its own movie. So that was number one. Number two was I loved the idea of seeing her in this more modern setting because that's the Wonder Woman that we all got to know and love in Linda Carter's show. So it's like that Wonder Woman is very of that time. And I loved the idea of making a movie about full-blown Wonder Woman.

Because that's the only frustration of making the first movie is that you're doing the birth of a superhero, but she's really not Wonder Woman until the last shot of the film. And so now I was like, now let's make Wonder Woman. I went through all that. Now, let me make a Wonder Woman movie

about Wonder Woman, you know? So those were really the things. I was like, now let's make an amazing Wonder Woman film. And then the story to tell really felt like what the world, the world was telling me what I wanted to talk about and what I felt I was experiencing and seeing in the world, and then the story kind of formed itself out of what would Wonder Woman do in this modern

world? What would she be facing? I want to talk a little bit about the choice to place it in this great time period, 1984, when I was watching it and I was watching it with my wife, hopefully she's not going to be drawn up on charges for having seen this movie early. But she turned to me about half an hour into the movie, and she said something to me that I had just written down. And she said, this really reminds me like those old Superman movies. And I mean that as a high compliment. I grew up with Richard Donner or Superman. I take it as a high compliment, believe me.

But it does. It kind of feels like the lost superhero movie that came like in between Superman two and three. Thank you. That I was trying to do. Okay, good to know. That was the other thing. I kept saying to everybody, too, we're not making a movie about the 80s. We're making a movie as if we were in the 80s.

Right. Right. And so Hans Zimmer and I would talk about. about that all the time, where we were like, no, we're not going to make a campy, you know, a campy, ha ha, remember the 80s score. We're dead serious. This is as if we were making this movie in the 80s. It's got all the influences of it, but it's sincerely that way. The other thing I wanted it to be is certainly there are a lot of great filmmakers working today doing all kinds of things, but I feel like I'm kind of craving this kind of temple where it's for the whole

family and it feels good and hopefully it delivers something for everyone. And so that was something too, like the Spielberg, Zemeckis, you know, like, and absolutely the Richard Donner films. It was like those guys were making those huge experiences for all kinds of people. And so I wanted to tap into the greatness of that brand. I think one of the cool things about the quote unquote superhero genre, if you want to call it that, and obviously a lot of things can fit into that. umbrella, but, you know, because of the nature of it, it allows you kind of to deal with these kind of really big themes, these kind of basic truths, you know, like, you know, in the lessons of the first one in believing in love and humanity and the lessons of this one without revealing

too much, like these themes of embracing truth. Yeah. You know, in a quote-unquote normal movie, that might feel hard to kind of like dig into that kind of really broad, basic human theme, but does a superhero movie, does kind of like big operatic filmmaking like this, allow yourself to explore those themes? Absolutely. And as a result of that, it allows me to make as personal of an art film deep down inside as Monster was to me because these emotions are as earnest and truthful to me as they are to anyone and I'm being supported in doing it.

So I love the big emotions. Like, I just really love hitting those big emotions. And it's hugely cathartic to me, you know, like to get to experience these stories. I'm processing it myself. I always joke that I feel like I face Wonder Woman's struggle all the time. This pandemic has definitely done it. Where I'm like, I look at the world and I get so angry at what mankind is that I'm so tempted to almost turn my back on mankind.

And then I have to talk myself back into saying, no, no. We've got to be better people. We've got to be, I'm like, it's the Wonder Woman struggle, you know? So I'm getting to process that when I make these films about, you know, like, and what do I do? What's the right thing that I could do right now to help the world? I don't know. And so, like, that question with Wonder Woman as well is like, if you had all this power, knowing the right thing to do with it, what a profound thing to turn.

So I just love that about these films. Is there anything you learned from the audience or critical reaction to the first Wonder Woman film that you applied to this one, something that surprised you about how the character was interpreted and received or risks that you took in the first one that paid off or didn't pay off that you took to this one. Yeah, I'll tell you, and I'm not trying to just, you know, say that I didn't learn and see a lot. I did. But the biggest thing I learned was I was a tiny bit, I believed that I was doing the right thing in the first one, but you're a little wing in the prayer. I was very alone making that film. And the studio saying,

We're afraid that she's to this or she's to that. And we think she should be harder or this or she should be this or that. And I was saying, no, I'm telling you, I feel like this is what we want. We Wonder Woman fans want. I'm telling you. I would argue with them saying, I'm arguing with you for you. Like, I'm telling you, I think that that's not true. To have it so massively reflected back to me that that female audience did want what I was, what I was having a feeling we wanted was incredible.

So it did just, I embraced that support. The studio has changed very much since back then. And they embraced me and even back then and supported me. But now they really understood and have supported me so much. And so definitely that was a big influence. But, you know, just being aware of how responsible you have to be with these characters, too, because it means so much to so many. And so, you know, I'm always learning both about filmmaking and how to be a better.

person from this experience in Wonder Woman, you know, it sets both those bars really high. Well, and clearly even just looking at the credits of this, I mean, you come into the first Wonder Woman film, you know, never having done a feature of that sort before, Zach had cast your lead. So you kind of inherit that part of it. This time you're a writer, you're a producer. It has to feel like as much ownership as you had over the first Wonder Woman film, this is your baby. There's no, there's no arguing that. No, exactly. And it was great. I ended up having a huge influence over all those aspects on the first one, too, but it was a process to get there.

Right. So this time to actually have the ability to totally shape the story that I wanted to tell from the Genesis, you know, and have it just go very smoothly. It was a much easier film to make in that regard. It was a much harder film to make in ambition, scope, and scale and longevity. You know, like it went on for so, so, so, so long. And I did it back to back with the first one. So you're just, it's a surreal thing to do two tent pulls back to back.

The fans, the hardcore fans were excited to see in the early trailers. I believe it was Alex Ross's artwork First and Kingdom Come. That has come to life for the first time in live action form. Was that an early, was that something you've been considered in the first one? Was it just sort of organic to the story you were telling in this one? Did you know you wanted to depict that at a certain point when depicting that? Yeah, the first movie I did never consider it, even though I did have like a big poster of it up on my wall while I was making it because I love that. I love Alex's artwork across the board, but I think that's such great suit. In the second one, it actually came from Lindy Hemming, the genius costume designer and I sang, we need to do, let's do a new suit. Like we should do something. We want to honor the timeline of Zach's films. And so we didn't want to contradict the Wonder Woman suit. But normally you would change her suit a little bit if you're making, you know, things.

So we said, oh, my God, let's do the golden armor. And then it found its way into the story. Does, you know, I mentioned the 1984 setting by my math. You were, what, about 13 years old then? Is this the movie that you would have loved coming out as a 13-year-old? I think so, and I hope so. You never know. Like, it's so weird.

I can't even ever tell. No, I do. I can tell that I love it. And I can tell that that I love the film. Otherwise, I would have kept working on it. you know, like to try to make it better. But yeah, I can't even quite imagine that. But films like this, I loved.

So I would hope so. So as I said, when you came on the Zoom today, I reminded you the fact that I think back to one of the early projects I did in my career was a collection of conversations with filmmakers. And this is almost exactly 15 years ago, Patty, that you and I first chatted about your career. You were coming off of Monster a couple years in the past. And I have to say it was fascinating.

I dug it out and I read our conversation. And I wanted to tell you a couple things you said back then. And let's just reflect and see where you are now. I can't wait. I've got to read it again too. So, yeah, I'll definitely share it with you. But one thing you said to me is you were kind of, I don't know if you were hard on yourself or what,

but you said, you know, I'm not particularly a visually talented filmmaker. Yeah. Thinking at the time, these films are big and beautiful and ginormous from the whole perspective. did you just not have the confidence at the time? Has that thought process changed or what? I'll tell you what it was. I wasn't prioritizing visuals, right?

I understand what great visuals take. It's work. It's labor and its focus and it's thought. And so because I grew up and going through art school and all those things, I have been visually skilled at times, right? But I made a choice, a proactive choice to tune that out. in favor of emotion. And so I started to throw away visuals saying,

don't focus on that. Go fucking completely straight. Like just do a totally straight visuals. And so at that moment, I was not, I was ignoring the visuals. Of course, I wasn't really. Of course I still had a very, I did all my shots myself and I, you know,

have that I wanted the poster to have the Marlboro font for Monster. Like I'm very visual actually because that's what I've trained in my whole life. But I was not focusing on it. So at that moment, I wasn't all that talented. I could see what people like David Fincher were doing and like great masters. I didn't know how to do that.

You know, I didn't. As my career went on, as what I really feel like, and I give this advice always to young filmmakers too, I'm like, getting good at telling stories first. Then you can add these layers on top, right? It's been a lot of years since then. And as particularly as I did television pilots, where they're not my baby. And so what I'm trying to do is elevate somebody else's baby. Then I started really focusing on, okay, I'm going to do what I will need to do to support this person's story.

And then I'm going to start focusing and gilding these other layer tension and visuals and all those things. So actually, it's interesting. I was so frustrated in the years between Monster and Wonder Woman that 700,000 things happened that made me unable to make my next film. But by the time I made Wonder Woman, I was like, oh, I'm so grateful for that. because I did all those pilots and they kept getting bigger and bigger and all those television episodes. And by the time I got to do Wonder Woman, I was very, I was in a different place with all of those skills, you know? So, so. You put in your 10,000 hours by then. You were ready. Exactly. Exactly. It's curious to me too. And this kind of dovetails of what you were talking about

before. I asked you like the one kind of film that you could never imagine yourself doing. And you, you said pure action. Now I wouldn't call Wonder Woman Pure Action. No, not at all. Not at all. I still feel that way. Like a bank heist movie, pass. Like, I'm never doing it. Like, I'm not, you know, and of course, now you're going to talk to me in 15 years and I'll have just finished my bank heist movie. You'll have made an emotional bank heist movie. Yes, yes, exactly. But no, the truth is a action movie that is just a series of events and, like, get to the end of the line. I'm always going to want to make Trojan horsey films that have big emotional components that I can experience. Well, it's why, I mean, as you well know, why Wonder Woman worked, yes, the bells and whistles

are great. But at the end of the, what were people talking about? They were talking about no man's land. They were talking about Wonder Woman and Steve in that emotional relationship. It's like that's the stuff that really sticks with you. Action's great. Don't get me wrong, but like need it all. And even in the action, one of the interesting things to me about the reaction to the action was women saying they thought they didn't like action, but they loved this action. And I was like, oh, it's actually the objective that when we can't relate to the objective, then what am I watching? And so often when we're watching the objective to be to like kick the shit out of that guy or whatever,

and we don't relate. But in this movie, because they related with the objective, they were as fired up about action as anyone. So that was an interesting thing to me. And it also, I think it reminded us like the power of iconic imagery. Like the Themyskera scenes in the first part of the first film were so unexpected. emotionally emotional for me, I remember, and emotional for a lot of people because we just hadn't seen it and we didn't even realize we hadn't seen it. And it felt so fresh and exciting in that way. I didn't realize it either. And it kept freaking me out because I remember gal started crying when we were on the beach and Themyskira filming that beach battle. And I was like, what's going on? She was like, I've just never seen anything like this before. And I'm like so down the rabbit hole. I've been working on it for like 100,000 years like the details. So I'm like, what? I'm not even thinking about that. I'm like, of course women are. can do a battle. Have we never seen it? I didn't even think about that. So 15 years ago, I asked you if it felt like, if it felt like you were working in a man's world. And you said,

I don't feel that. I'm so uninterested in the subject. I've just talked way too much about it. I just try to look the other way. I ignore it. Now, here we are, Patty, 15 years later. And poor Patty Jenkins is still being asked this stuff a thousand times every day. you were clearly even and understandably so you were burnt out then you probably get burnt out by it at times now some perspective on that ongoing conversation 15 years later yeah it's interesting my point of view is still the same i think i have succeeded because i not thinking about it and so it just never occurred to me that it should be a problem or an issue however also as the years have gone by i have definitely learned to appreciate. I never really thought that my mom is a passionate feminist. So I grew up talking

about it all the time. So that's why I'm like, okay, that's in the past. We're done now. Right. I never realized how very wrong I was until I became successful. And so it was the, it's all those years after Monster that I started to really notice like, Jesus Christ, I'm a woman filmmaker. You guys, like, like, I'm not a filmmaker. I'm a woman filmmaker. And it was, and it shaded so many things. it has had very little effect on my life in lots of ways and in my relationships with my crew and my life on set, like, I don't think about it and they are wonderful to me and it's great. But when it comes to the industry and what I have been offered and how I'm offered things and, you know, I've definitely noticed it. Definitely noticed it.

Now, usually, as you well know, salary negotiations for a director aren't necessarily commonplace knowledge. But, I mean, in this one, and, you know, in all credit to you, you, you, you, you, you stood up for yourself and said, you know, I just delivered something pretty big for the studio. I'm going to need parity from, yeah, comparable to my, my male cohorts in this. Was that, was that an odd situation for you to kind of, to be like a public face of something that's, you know, generally speaking, a private matter? Did it feel important to be, to be, to be out front with that or what? It was very uncomfortable to be that it was publicly being talked about. That part was very uncomfortable because I don't like talking about

money. It was very uncomfortable to be asking for money because that's a weird thing to do. It's interesting as someone who's never made any profit my entire career up until after Wonder Woman that I was always at peace with it. I was like, hey, I get it. But now I was like, listen, I've never made any money in my career because you always had the leverage and I didn't. But now the shoe's on the other foot so it's time to turn the tables. And I don't want to talk about a quote system that's boxed me out. And it's not even true. it was easy to find that all of the men who had even not just not just had quotes they'd made a first superhero movie they'd made an independent film right and then they'd made a first movie

they got paid seven times more than me for the first superhero movie and then on the second one they got paid more than me still you know still even what I got so it was an easy fight to say this can't be like it super can't be and it really can't be on Wonder Woman you know like and so of all things exactly of all things and so it was an issue interesting thing to do, but it was an easy thing to do in the fact that I was dead serious, that I was like, if I can't be victorious in this regard, then I'm letting everyone down. You know, like, if not me, who? So, so it became, it became a something I was very, very, very, very passionate about. Were you ready to walk away? Did you come close to walking away?

I totally did. I started to walk away. Yeah, I was going to walk away. Yeah, as I even said, I was like, I'd be, I'd be happy to go to another studio and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, make a quarter as much because it's not a sequel on principle. No problem. Wow. There's an alternate universe and it's appropriate. We're talking about superheroes. They're multiverses. There's an alternate universe where you made the Thor sequel and that was the path you went down. Yeah. Did you know immediately that wasn't the right? I mean, it sounds like you kind of came and within a couple months you had left that project. Did they won like, oh, I didn't know immediately. I loved those guys and I loved the idea of doing a Marvel film and I was so impressed that they

hired me and and I thought it was super brave of them. No, I had actually pitched them a way to tell that story and that I really, I still love, you know, I think it was, could have been a great film. But then as they were hiring me, they told me, well, there was this script we've been kind of working on before you came here. But anyway, whenever it comes in, and I said to them then, don't hire me if that's what you want to do. I said, I'm not the right filmmaker for that story. It was pure action, right? It was pure action. And I said, I'm telling you, I'm not the filmmaker for that film that's no no no we won't do that and then as the months went on and it's not their fault either it's where they were at like that things were shifting and what they you know what was

going on and the old the bosses knowing that script existed and you're on a timeline and they just got to a place where they were like that that's what we're going to have to do and so it was heartbreaking at the time super heartbreaking but I had no doubt that I was worried that I could not make a good movie out of that movie I was like somebody else may be able to but it's not I can't. And so I can't make a failed, I can't make your first failed superhero movie and have it be me. So it was really, no choice. If I'm learning something from this conversation is you've made some calculated and well thought out gambles on yourself at pivotal points in your career and by and large, the big ones have paid off. And there's a lesson there. It doesn't even feel that way. But it,

because it was, you know, it was, it was something that has turned out to be good in retrospect, but it was, It was for many years, you know, like somebody wrote some ugly piece foe defending me saying, like, was she fired because she couldn't make her dates? Was she fired because women act differently? And I was like, oh my God. And so for years, anytime you searched my name, it said Patty Jenkins fired for being unable to make indecisive or something like that. I was like, oh, my God.

Nobody ever said that except for one person speculating in an article that maybe it was because I was different because I was a woman that I got. I was like, oh. So it was very, very painful for a long time. Well, it also must be so satisfying that the narrative around your career, which prior to Wonder Woman, I mean, forgetting the Thor Escapade was, it took, like, where was she? Where's her second film? It's never going to happen. What's, what's the holdup? Yeah. And now when you Google Patty Jenkins, it's, you know, biggest female filmmaker of all time. It's, you know, revitalizing, creating Wonder Woman. So that's got to be, it took a while, but it's a sad. Took a while. Oh my God. It totally. They'll,

because there was a period. I've worked, I got my first job when I was 14 and I've worked every day of my life. So I was so befuddled myself during those years because I was going to do a movie about Chuck Yeager and then that didn't work out. And I was going to do my prison movie with Ryan Gosling and then I got pregnant. And so now I have a little tiny baby and then I was going to do. It's like, and then I was going to do Thor. I was so confused. Right before Wonder Woman finally showed up again, I was like, I give up. I don't understand what's going on. Like I've tried everything. I've tried to do their project. I've tried to do my project. I don't get it. I don't get what's gone wrong. And then boom. The first thing I ever told Hollywood I wanted to do after Monster was Wonder Woman. And so somehow, yeah, I went to Warner Brothers and I said, I want to direct Wonder Woman. And they said, well, Chris is making the dark night. We're right now. We're not sure what we're doing. And I talked to them about it like every two years and boom, got to make Wonder Woman. So it's weird. Are any elements of that first discussion kind of where you landed in the end of what you pitched them or what you said? Yeah, only insofar as I wanted to do a great origin story. Right. You know, I wanted to do the Richard Donner to Superman of Wonder Woman. You know, like that was what I felt she was missing in the world, that kind of movie, and I thought she was the perfect one to do it with.

Amazing. The Snyders are producers on this film. They obviously cast your Wonder Woman remarkably well. Are you amazingly well? I mean, yeah. Are you curious? about, you know, Zach's had this amazing kind of career that is now moving into this kind of reassessment of Justice League. Have you any inside intel on what he's doing on the Snyder

cut? Are you curious as a fellow filmmaker and collaborator to see what he's doing? Totally. I can't wait to see it. I'm super happy for him that he's getting this chance to do it. It's got, it was such a terrible circumstance. Everything that was going down around. That was just so heartbreaking. And I was watching it all from the backseat that whole time. But since he started working on it again. I've just been so busy. He's been so busy. We haven't, you know, like we haven't had a chance to connect about what exactly he's doing. But I think it's great that he's getting a chance to do his thing. You are, if all goes according to plan, also going to be producing an Amazon set, a Themiscare set film. I know way too early to talk

specifics and I don't want it ruined for me years in advance. But that being said, can you say anything about what the germ of the idea was or why a non-Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman universe set film is a healing to you? Yeah. Who knows what's going to happen with that film because the whole studio is in such a strange place right now. I have no idea what will happen, but I still really want to do it. You know what it was? It was seeing that it's such a great world, you know? And people are so thirsty for it. And even when they see the new film, they're so thirsty for more of that thing. And those are great actresses. And there's so many more great characters that we didn't get to really roll around in that I'd love to do. And I just thought of a, a story that I think is hilarious and amazing that could happen in the interim years after Diana's left. And so I think it could be, there's a way to make a smaller budget movie there with a really huge appeal to a whole bunch of people. And so I think it's like as a spinoff of Wonder Woman, I think there's an amazing movie to be made there out of those characters. And so

I love the story we have and we'll see. We'll see what happens. And presumably a different protagonist than we've met before? Is it someone from the comics? Can you say like who's what kind of you have? Yeah, there's a bunch of different leads. There's a bunch. Yeah. And there's, anyway, I won't say too much more. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Another topic you can't say really anything about, but hopefully you'll get you, I don't know, complete or maybe you're going to make you wonderful movies till the day you die, but you've talked about a trilogy, perhaps. Perhaps. Okay, so that would that have become more questionable. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, every day, as we well know, as we speak today,

things are shifting but that's right you've thought about and you have said that if you do another one you're thinking present day you want to bring her to the present day maybe I have to see it's interesting we have to figure out what's going on with a lot of things and really honestly this second wonder woman really came forth from what I was feeling I wanted to say in the world with her and I don't know what that is I did I knew what I wanted to say before the pandemic I had a whole story mapped out. But now I'm actually saying, don't even think about it. Put a pen in it and see where you are when you start working on it because I want to use Wonder Woman to speak to our world, you know? And so it'll be interesting. It's the first time I've ever done that. I usually

know exactly what I want to do. And this time I'm like, don't do that. Actually process all this first and then see where you end up. But I would make me to do one with Galligan. It's like it's so hard to, it's a dream come true doing these with her. And who you've surrounded. with her, especially in this one. We haven't even mentioned, I think what Pedro does in this film is just, like, so entertaining and fantastic. And Kristen, I'm so glad. Kristen's evolution in the film totally works as well. I'm just curious, like, how you go about, yeah, how do you go about filling out a cast? Because it seems like not only did you have a good time, these guys got along, Pedro, you know, that's a tricky character, like, to go too big or not, and he is big

at times, but it kind of works. And it takes bravery to do, and it takes willingness to just be out there. Like, you know, you have to go way too far and then come back. It's like you, it's a very, very, very hard thing to nail. And it's funny how some of the people who appreciate the performance the most are people like the actors in the film, because they know what the needle he was trying to thread. And they, when they saw the film, were like, oh my God, Pedro, you did it. Like, so it was so, it was so great to work with these guys.

Listen, casting is really, really hard. It takes a ton of thought to really sit and figure out exactly what, what's going on, you know, and what you need out of a character, like, because you need a latitude. So with Pedro, you need somebody who hits that, can hit that thing of camp, but be totally sincere at the same time. And so you're feeling depths of emotion, but you're also willing to play with it a little bit. With Kristen, I needed somebody who could go all the way from someone who's truly funny and benign to somebody who actually has an edge inside of them once you tap into it.

So these are hard performances. You know what was funny? I'm a fan of both of theirs. I had worked with Pedro before, but I was just a super fan of Kristen's. You never know who people are going to be. So it was luck to a certain regard, or maybe it's gal and my fandom of Kristen was saying something about our that we would be kindred spirits but on this film it was like on another level because we're all kind of peers and so it was it was I felt like I was like a good band camp you know like I'm

making a film with my friends on this level we're just joking around and hanging around and talking playing mafia on the weekends together and going out to dinner all the time you know like we're we're just hanging around but then we're getting to make this massive movie it's really weird it speaks it speaks volumes obviously you worked with chris again and i am the night and you You're potentially working with Gallaghan for this Cleopatra film. So clearly whatever is working. It's great to kind of assemble that company of actors. Obviously, Charlize and you always talk about each other.

I'm sure you guys are going to collaborate again at some point. I'm sure we will. Yeah, I cannot wait. So one other thing that struck me, and this is a little out of left field, but I forgot about this when I read the conversation with you all these years back. And I don't know how often you talk about this. I'm just curious if this kind of like permeates your life to this day. you were talking about before you did Monster, you had, there was a pretty serious accidents that

you were involved in. It sounds like a kind of a life-changing big moment on the, on the brink of doing, of a life-changing career moment. Yeah. You were hit by a car. You were a car accident, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Is that informed your life? Yeah. Well, here's the funny thing. I never, ever talk about it. And it's so funny you would bring it up because I just mentioned it last night to my husband for the first time in a long time, because I said to my husband, And I really think there's a good chance I did die in that accident because the things that keep happening, like getting so lucky to finally get to make these movies and getting, and I'm like, God, I just, I was feeling a moment of feeling really grateful. And, and, and I was like, maybe I

really did die because it's all kind of like whatever I would have made up right then when I got hit by that car. Like, then, because I had just finished writing monster, right? I'd locked myself up and I wrote it on spec, and it was just such a difficult script to write and very, very dark. And then my dog died two days later. And I was just devastated and I went speed skating and I got hit by a car really badly. So the car drove into me at Griffith Park at the top of a hill going at full speed on the bike lane. And I like smashed through the windshield and rolled across the pavement and I was out like a light. And so it's a funny thing to look back and think like if I had stopped at that moment and made up what would

happened in my life because I'd written the script for Charlize, but it's a spec, you know, like, and I'd written, don't stop believing into it. And, you know, you're never going to get that song, of course, blah, blah, blah. And the fact that, like, if an immature person made up what did happen, it would be like, then, like, she's going to do it. And then I'm going to get Charlize and she's going to win an Oscar. And Steve Perry's going to totally become our friend. And then he's, you know, I was like, what? You know, and believe me, I've had my struggles, too. All those years between movies, I have plenty of, plenty of struggle. And, and, And so it's not like it's all been a cakewalk, but it is funny getting to do these,

these big movies now, which are, of course, a dream. It's like such a lucky thing to get to be the one doing them. You mentioned Don't Stop Believing in Steve Perry. And I know, again, from our previous conversations, that music is such an important love of yours and perhaps even before filmmaking. Do musicals interest you? Is that, I mean, those are big and emotional and dramatic. So that would seem to be something that could fit into the Patty Jenkins, you know, filmmaking.

I would want to do a musical one day. I would. I would. It would have to be the right one, but I think a, like I, like, Mulan Ruse is one of my favorite movies. Like, to do a movie like that would just be fantastic. What do you think you said your best quality was as a filmmaker 15 years ago? My drive and empathy. I would, something like that. A tenacity. It is tenacity. Still, definitely tenacity. And now I would add my empathy, not saying I'm the most empathetic. person in the world, but my curiosity to understand what other people are feeling, I think is very helpful working with my actors and my crew. You know, like my interest, I'm truly genuinely

curious of what makes people tick. And so then I think that it helps to be a leader of a crew when you are aware what their experience is and like, and observing it. And so that's probably Well, I think it is when that empathy, again, marries to the skill set that you've developed, that toolbox you've just increased and augmented over the years. And now you're at a place where, like, your powers are great. You've become Wonder Woman. You can wield all your great powers for it. Thank you.

I should be so lucky. I don't want to end on a sad or weird note, but I'm just curious. I'm sure this is going to be a conversation I talk to filmmakers about for the next few months. This has been such a crazy year for all the reasons we described. as we tape this, you know, HBO Max makes this big decision, you know, for features going forward. You know, we love movie theaters. I love watching movies in my home, too, my big screen TV. Are you, what are you feeling about the future of theaters?

Are you more pessimistic? I'm feeling very worried, very worried, very, very worried. I never thought that I would be someone who would embrace our release plan, but I do. I embrace our release plan. It felt like the right moment. I felt like the world, I felt, I felt the desire to share something positive with the world overrode money. You know, I was like, listen, every movie happens for a different reason. Let's not keep waiting forever when we could give this right now.

Like, let's just get, let's just do it. Let's just release it and won't make as much money. And, and yet, it feels like it will be something that will fill this holiday season with something, you know, new to watch. However, I'm not at all behind the idea of doing this as a release plan going forward. And I also don't understand it because I feel like there are already streaming giants out there. And I feel like Hollywood has this tragic repetition of everybody going after the same thing. And it just makes no sense. And so for studios to turn their back on what they do have going for them, to pursue Netflix,

who's already way ahead of them is so strange to me. Like, I don't get it at all. Like, that's okay. You know, people are, the general audience is not going to subscribe to that many things. They're going to subscribe to two or three things. So you could throw away your entire studio system and the future of your ability to go back and make revenue by rolling the dice that you become one of the three that they pay for. I just don't get it.

I just don't get it. And they're going to have to lower their prices to be competitive with each other, right? So what Netflix was doing before, you're not going to be able to make that revenue either. And here's the kicker. Netflix has gotten where it's gotten because it's willing to pay people that much money. And these studios don't have that money. Right. So why would any of us go work with the studios again?

Hell no. I'm going to go make a movie for Netflix. Why would I ever make a studio movie? They can't pay even mildly. So anyway, I don't understand it. I understand that Warner Brothers is. saying that this is temporary and they're only going to do it through the pandemic. I absolutely hope that's true, although I don't understand why it's, you know,

why anything had to be decided, but it is what it is. I hope that it's not, you know, the beginning of anything. I appreciate your passion as a film fan, as a filmmaker, your talent as a filmmaker, and I appreciate you contributing this to a crazy year that, as you said, could use a bright spot in Wonder Woman 1984. It's certainly that. Patty, thanks so much for being on the podcast today. So good to talk to you again.

Josh, can you please send? I have that book somewhere. Somewhere in that library. I don't know where it is because we just moved. I've still got a box of them. I can send you an extra one. No worries. Please, I would love it.

Would you? It's good to catch up today. Thank you, Patty. Because it's funny. My old house, it was sitting next to where I would sit. Amazing. So great to talk to you. Good luck for the film.

Thanks, Patty. Thank you. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't to do this by Josh.

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from the League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies. And we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old.

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspool, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button.