Happy Sad Confused - Paul Verhoeven, Naomie Harris

Episode Date: November 9, 2016

A legendary filmmaker and an actress on the rise visit Josh Horowitz for this week’s episode of “Happy Sad Confused”. In the 80s and 90s, Paul Verhoeven’s name was synonymous with Hollywood spectacle and at times, controversy. He directed a trio of acclaimed sci-fi films, Robocop, Total Recall, and Starship Troopers. But he also pushed buttons with sex, violence, and at times with sheer high camp with Basic Instinct and Showgirls. But for many years Verhoven has been making smaller films in Europe, often barely getting any attention in the states. He’s back in a big way with “Elle” (opening November 11th), a tale of yes, sex and violence, that earned a standing ovation in Cannes and widespread critical praise ever since. The filmmaker joins Josh to talk about his new film, why he refuses to censor himself, and what’s been missing in the many sub-par remakes of his films. Later in the show, Josh is joined by a true chameleon of an actor in Naomie Harris. She’s perhaps best known for her roles in 28 Days Later and two giant franchises, the James Bond series, and the Pirates films. But it’s her acclaimed performance in the small but powerful film, “Moonlight” that may prove to be the most important of her career. Harris talks about playing a crack addicted mother in the course of just three days on set and why she didn’t want the part at all at first. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

DC high volume, Batman. The Dark Knight's definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. With progressives name your price tool, you can find options that fit your budget, because giving you options is the right thing to do. Oh, yeah, like when I hold the door for someone. Sure, it may be weird if I don't time it right, and they're a little too far away, and now they're running,

and we're both asking ourselves, is it worth it to run, instead of just, you know, letting them open their own door? But still, it's the right thing to do. So get options based on your needs with progressives name your price tool. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and third-party insurers, comparison rates not available in all states or situations, price is very based on how you buy. Hey guys, welcome to happy, sad, confused.

This week, Paul Verhoeven talks about a stellar and at times controversial career and Naomi Harris on why it sometimes only takes three days to deliver an amazing performance. I'm Josh Horowitz. I do the chitch-chatting around here. This over here is Sammy. Hello. What do you do over here, by the way? It's hard to say.

Jerry's still out. No, no. You're like the, you get everybody excited. You get me excited for the show. I'm the mood setter. Yes. What's the mood this week? We are excited this week.

We're thrilled. We're deep in November. We're actually filming this in a very crazy time. Well, yes. So we don't know the outcome of the election. Should we do two different versions depending on how it goes? I don't know. Maybe three. One if either wins and third if there's just like an apocalypse.

Right. I was one of just screams and cries. So you guys know more than we do about the fate of our country. But we're not going to talk about that. We're going to talk about happier things. such as Fantastic Beasts we both saw. Where to find them. Yes.

So we wanted to tease that beyond just this fun little podcast today, Sammy and I are working on a couple fun events. Really fun events. We can't really say too much about the film set because it's under embargo. I know. I'm not going to – you're so scared. I'm going to just say everything. I just know what you're like.

You have a lot to say, and there is going to be a lot to say. Maybe we'll talk about it on next week's podcast when we're actually allowed to. But talk about the events. Yes. So I know a lot of people that listen to this podcast, I'm sure, are fans of Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts and the actors in this. And we're doing a couple really cool things. So on Thursday night in New York is the, I believe it's the world premiere. I'm pretty sure it's the world premiere of the film.

And we will be doing a Facebook live on MTV's Facebook page from the red carpet. I'll be chit-chatting with everybody and anybody from Eddie Redmayne all the way to J.K. Rowling. That's pretty true. Joe. Yeah. When am I going to ask Joe? What should I ask her? Well, we have to, I can't tell you that. We have to talk about this because you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the, you're the big potter person. Makes such an ass out of yourself.

Well, that goes without saying. Then, if that's not enough for you guys on Friday, Friday afternoon on MTV's Facebook page, we have the four main stars of the film, Eddie Redmayne, Catherine Waterston, Dan Fogler, and Allison Sudol. And they are all coming into studio. And I'm going to chat with them for about 30 minutes. And we'll probably solicit some of your questions by social media. I'll ask a bunch of my own stupid questions. Play some games. It's going to be a good time. Yeah, get out and have a nice weekend. Yeah, so a lot of fantastic beast stuff coming for you guys. I think you all are going to enjoy it.

I'm really psych. The movie is dot dot dot. I can't say anything. But it's worth talking about. No, it's not if you can't. I'm saying it's worth talking about. Next subject. Okay, okay.

Next subject. I can't control us all. Calm down. Okay. Okay. So on to this week's show. This week, later on in the show, we have Naomi Harris, as I mentioned. Naomi is our second star of the film Moonlight, which you know that I love. I've been talking a lot about this film since I saw it in Toronto. She plays, it's an intense part. She plays the mom of the main character who's a crack addict. She's not exactly going to win Mom of the Year awards. She goes through a lot in the course of this film. And she also remarkably shot her part in three days. That's crazy. Yeah, we talk about that. It was just the nature of the shoot.

It's a small film. There were visa issues, yada, yada, yada. She actually did it while she was in the middle of promoting Spectre. You know, she plays Moneypenny in the James Bond movies. So she was on the publicity circuit. She snuck away for three days, shot this amazing part in three days, and now everybody is in love with it. So we're going to talk all about that with Naomi. So it was worth it.

I would say so. But first up, Sammy, you know how much I love to geek out with a filmmaker that I adore. Oh, who does it? This is what I live for. Paul Verhoven, Sammy. Paul Verhoeven. Yeah, I was waiting for that. Okay.

Paul Verhoven case came by recently. And yeah, his accent is, by the way, amazing. Did you mimic his accent throughout the interview? No, we wait for the second podcast interview for me to start to mock my guests to their face. Got it, got it. But he is, of course, as any film fan knows, the director of Robocop and Starship Troopers and Total Recall and Basic Instinct and, yes, showgirls. And he made some of my favorite movies of my childhood, and we talk about a bunch of them, and we talk a lot about his return kind of to filmmaking. I mean, he basically left Hollywood 10 or 15, about 10 years ago after Halloman, not a great movie, even by his own accounts, and started to make films in Europe.

And now he's made this film as a French production, a French star, Isabel Huper, and it's a film called Elle. And it premiered at the Cannes Film Festival this past year, and it got rapturous. applause and standing o's and all that. And it's become a very well-reviewed film, despite it being actually a pretty controversial subject. And that's not something surprising for Paul. He's a filmmaker that does not shy away from being controversial. And he talks in the interview about not liking to censor himself. I won't say too much about the content of the film because it's the kind of film I think you want to discover as you see it. But essentially, it starts with the main character, Isabel Huper, plays a woman who is sexually assaulted, literally in the first

scene and her reaction to that assault and her reaction to her attacker and how that relationship, if you can call it that, develops is very unusual and not what you would expect. It's a drama, it's a thriller, it's kind of a black comedy at times. I highly recommend it. It opens in limited release, I believe, this Friday, and I'm sure it's going to spread around, and it is getting a lot of critical attention, and it's definitely one you're going to talk a lot about after seeing. So that's my preamble for Elle. Check it out this Friday in the meantime, enjoy this conversation with Paul Verhoven, who is truly a living legend in my book. He's one of the greats.

And he, this is a fun interview because he's, I don't think he gives a fuck, Sammy. I love that. I think he'll just say anything. Like a Nick Nolty. Yeah. We're seven on the Nolty scale. Perfect. Enjoy this conversation with the great Paul Verhoven.

So there's no formal introduction, Mr. Verhoven. But I'll introduce you by way of saying I vividly remember I was 11 years old and I was taken to a film that seemed like a very silly fun concept at the time that what possible damage could it do to my psyche. It was a film called Robocop and I've been scarred in the best way ever since. I'm so sorry. No, I'm thrilled to have you here because it's that film and many of your others stand the test of time. And I'm just thrilled that you're back with this great piece of work called L. Congratulations, sir. Thank you.

So I think when people see this film that know your work, I think they're going to be very hardened to see that you have not lost a step at all. This is as, you know, all the buzzwords that always are associated with your name in terms of entertaining and provocative and obviously great craftsmanship and great performances. Give me a sense of, this must be a satisfying time to see the reception to this film because you've gotten all sorts of receptions throughout your career. Yeah, this is a really nice one till now. We have done France and Belgium, Holland and Canada, Spain. But of course, it could be a bit different than the United States. I have to find out. But in general, everything has been extremely positive.

Certainly if you compare it to the reactions of, for example, or Starship Troopers or Hollow Men, or especially showgirls, this was a really pleasant surprise, yeah, so far. And are you somewhat surprised the film debuted in Cannes? And, you know, the film, the subject matter is, it definitely is provocative. It's going to stimulate conversation as it should.

Isabel Hubert stars as a really unique character, a character I've never seen on screen before. She is a victim of sexual violence at the outset, and her reaction to that is anything but typical. that we see in a film. Were you surprised by the initial reaction in Cannes? Were you almost stealing yourself for more backlash? I think we were all aware that it could be provocative.

Personally, not for me. Of course, it was not provocative. In fact, the novel, the film is based on a French novel called O, like, oh. And that had already been controversial in the French press. But there were, let's say, very positive reviews of that book and some negatives. So we thought that it would be a bit similar with the movie. But what happened in Cannes was really one-sided, I would say. It was only positive.

And if you would have been there, it was. extremely interesting that at the end of the first screening of Elle, which was at the end of the festival, the theater of a couple thousand people exploded in an applause that took about 15, 16 minutes. I mean, all standing up and we were in the middle of the theater. You were not going to stage. You would stand up in your seats, which is in the center of the theater. and all the people in an enormous circle would be around you all and all applauding.

But that's not three minutes, but 15, 16, 17 minutes that went on. And I think I've never seen anything like that at all. I mean, it was probably the biggest applause, the most unexpected reaction to a movie that I've ever witnessed. You know, we were not even, we didn't know what to look anymore, you know, because it went on and on. You guys can sit, thank you. And then we were embracing each other and kissing each other and waving around and then then went on another couple of minutes.

So then we started again embracing each other just to fill in the time because you don't know what you have to do for a 15 minutes standing basically and with 2,000 people around you also standing. So yeah, that was extraordinary, I would say. I mean, given the track record and the ups and downs in any. but his career, are you more appreciative of that than ever? No, I, no, because this was something that was beyond anything that I had ever witnessed. Right.

You know, so it took me by, and everybody else, but it took me certainly by surprise. Yeah. So it's not that you basically get accustomed to these things. Something like that had never happened. It was more that you were, yeah, completely, let's say, taken aback by something. that continued this way so long and that you suddenly thought oh we made a very interesting movie

if people really like this and so the idea of controversy disappeared. Sure. Do you take it as a badge of honor though that throughout your career you are like you can't be introduced without the words provocative or controversial being assigned to you? Do you take that as a compliment or do you find

that odd that people still assign that to you? Well it has been there has been, clearly some of these movies have been let's say controversial, isn't it? I don't think that you really, let's say start a movie by thinking

I'm going to be provocative. I never felt that. What I do and that's perhaps unique and that might be where this idea of provocation comes from. I refuse to censor myself. My thinking, I see it this way

and I think, okay, that's how I see the scene. That's what my interpretation is. This is the political context that I would put underneath it or whatever. And then you realize, and later you realize that you were provocative. But it's, I, and by now I know that my fact, the fact that I don't censor myself got, got me in serious problems. Well, it's interesting when I started to think back to your career and, and, and, and, And the recent films in the wake of, you know, leaving Hollywood after Hollow Man, it almost seems to me like you haven't necessarily changed. It's the world that we live in.

It's the culture that has changed. You know, Hollywood films back in the day were provocative. We're pushing people's buttons. We're willing to take risks. And in the 50s, perhaps, in 60s. Well, but even, you know, in the 80s and 90s in your kind of heyday of Hollywood stuff, that you were still able to make films like that. And those simply don't exist made by studios anymore. Yeah, no, because it would, certainly most of these movies, all of these movies were R-rated.

All the American movies I made were R-rated or showgoers was even NC17. So, and the studios have decided that R-rating is not good for money-wise. Right. So basically, if you see now an R-rated movie is rare. I mean, it's all PG-G or PG-13. And so by feeding into the idea that everybody has to be able to see the movie without being offended or pissed off or angry or whatever, I mean, has seduced the studios to avoid anything that is a little bit what you would call provocative. Sure. They don't want anything.

People should like the movie. If they're babies or 80, it should all be fine for everybody. Right. And I think that has now dominated American cinema for the last nearly 10, 15 years. You know, that basically, and I think it makes American cinema poorer idea-wise. Well, there's a sameness to the blockbuster to the studios. And a certain moment, I'm still thinking every year, well, now they have seen enough of Marvel comic comics

and I've seen enough sequels but okay they continue this is the next the next remake and the next I mean it's so it's so interesting to see a remake of Ben Hur that was recently in it and to

say okay yes some things you can do better because you have all these digital possibilities but if you're done they think this is really enough because there's special effects and all the action is great,

but the characters don't matter and fill it in with actors that basically are not Charlton Heston or Stephen Boyd. Then I think then you diminish the possibilities of movie making, you know? There's not a reason for them to exist

other than to capitalize on an existing property. It made money, let's do it again. And in this case, they were punished. They were punished by that for being. too superficial. And I'm not saying that you cannot make

another Ben Hur. You can. And the latter part of Ben Hurd, the latter part when it's all about Jesus is not that good, you know.

The film breaks off, in fact, in all honesty, and I'm a big fan of the movie. I think it's great filmmaking, especially these horse races,

the wagon races. But basically when, what's the name, Stephen Boyd character, Massala, I think, he's called, dies, the movie, the movie is over.

Right. Then there is a kind of, let's say, somewhat vague situation where you see a little bit of Jesus and whatever, but, and you get some miracle stuff at the end, but it's really not good, you know. So, and you've talked about this, but I mean, it has to be said that, like, you know, those films that I referenced earlier, all of your films have been either remade or sequelized by now, all the big Hollywoods. successes and none of them have succeeded in these other iterations.

Have the filmmakers ever reached out to you? Have you talked to them when they were getting involved and have you warned them of these kind of pitfalls that they're going to fall into? Or do you kind of like have a hands-off attitude when people remake your stuff? I don't know what I would have done if they would have approached me, but they never approached me in any way. Nobody. No studio, no director, no producer, ever asked me.

Can we just talk a little bit about the movie? What does Verhoeven know? Yeah, sure. I mean, well, yeah, I was looking at also in many of these movies. They have good script writers, of course. But they eliminated everything that made these movies possible, I think, by using a certain irony, a certain amount of humor. It's not taking the ideas of the narrative completely seriously

because both narratives, all these. science fiction narratives are of course always a little bit silly in it so to to accept the fact that it is a certain kind of comic book certainly a robocop is yeah and and i think you have to add a certain distance you know a certain lightness because if you do it really completely seriously as they have been doing then you lose you're not the story is not convincing enough you know then you basically don't have the story the narrative is is then to simplistic and to direct to be fascinating for two hours. So I think if you have a certain distance and bring in a certain amount of satire

or irony to it, then you can then basically that enlightens the narrative and you accept it better. Is anyone approaching that are able to work within the studio system these days that that is working with these kind of large budgets that's giving it an extra wear like you're talking about that you're seeing? Yeah, there are several that could do it, you know, basically. I'm sure that Cameron can do that if you want to and Spielberg too. But they have not done so, in fact. Yeah. I mean, can you recall the last studio large-scale film that worked for you?

Well, that was probably Ben-Hur. The remake of Ben-Hur. And before the other adventure that I had was Superman versus Spider-Man, you know, which was also not good. No, it didn't work. I mean, of course, I mean, there is talent enough in Los Angeles or in the whole of the United States, talent-wise, actress-wise, and crew-wise. and I think a lot of the possibilities of all these people is not used at the moment. Yeah, that's the frustrating thing. Or it is basically, let's say, a television has seen its possibilities there

and took a character and narrative towards them and left all the special effects to the studios. And so, yeah, that I think is a big mistake. I strongly believe that we need, at least to a certain degree, go back to a bit more interesting narrative and also a little bit more character. Yes. But I don't see it happening yet. You don't see hope for this changing. No, as I said, you know, I every year think, well, okay, now they've seen enough, now they go a bit. perhaps they go in further 3D or whatever

or get these goggles on whatever and I don't know it's a bit depressing I think that so much talent so much of the talent that's there is not used I agree I mean you mentioned something like even Batman versus Superman you look at that cast you look at the I mean clearly the crew

behind the scenes they're amazing and it's all just poured into a product that's just not worthy of their talent Right. Yeah, I feel so. But there's hope. There's L. It's really going for trying to guess that basically what the audience wants to see what they have already seen. Right. So in the buildup of L in creating L, this was actually, you intended to make this in the States here in the United States with an American cast, with a quote, quote, you know, American movie star. Sure.

There were talks of like Nicole Kidman or even Sharon Stone. What happened? Was it the actors that were that shied away from the material? Yes, mostly. Of course, there was also the idea of doing a French American coproduction, basically what was in the background of our idea of Saeed Ben Saeed's, the producer's idea to make it to an American movie. That was not possible either.

It was also from the financial point of view, there was no interest of anybody or any studio or whatever to participate in this script. I mean, we're talking really about the script that was written by an American writer, David Burke, but the financiers or the people with money and the actresses that we approach, all, let's say, A-level actresses, refused, but refused categorically. I mean, really sharp, no, absolutely not. Did they say why? What was it based on? No, no, of course they didn't say why, no. And you hear these things mostly through agents and managers.

You hope that, then you still have to hope that the actors herself read it, or that was basically, or perhaps the agent, I mean, it has to do with the fact that L is not a revenge movie. Right. I think basically if the third act would have been about, she takes a revenge, she finds out at the end of the second act, who the rapist was. The man is in the beginning, he's masked, so she doesn't know. She finds out at the end of the second act, it's this and this person.

And then the third act would be her revenge. That would be, let's say. That's the playbook. That's what you do. That would be, yeah, an American way of looking at movies. And the fact that that doesn't happen, although you could argue, let's say, that she gets her revenge anyhow. I mean, and people see it when they see the movie. But by coincidence, I would say.

She gets her events. But the third act is really about something completely different. She goes in the opposite direction, which is meaning stretching out her hand to the rapist. And I think that was the reason that actresses of name basically, didn't want to do it. Right. Well, luckily, you got someone of great note and great talent and Isabelle Hubert is being celebrated justifiably for this amazing performance. And it's, you know, again, if you follow the playbook on paper, it's not the kind of film that generally is considered awards material, but people are talking about it in that vein. And that's,

that's an exciting prospect. Yeah. It's interesting that in evangelical terms, I would say, that you can say this movie is about love your enemy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is Jesus, Jesus did not say really love your neighbor. Right. Because that's easy.

You need your neighbor, you know. So Jesus really said, love your enemy. And that is one of the most difficult things to achieve in life anyhow. Yeah. I mean, who is able. Of first, I believe that Jesus was talking hyperbolicly, yeah. Yeah, like a hyper, hyper, how you say it? Hyper.

Hyper. hyperbole, yeah. And so over the top way, but I think what he was pointing, he was pointing something out, something that we should try to achieve, of course. And in fact, there was something interesting happening in the beginning of Obama's presidency when he was in Cairo and told there, the people there, that from the American point of you, that we, Americans, should step in the shoes of the enemy, just to look at ourselves.

And that is coming close to Jesus. Yeah, interesting. And of course, he failed, in fact. I mean, he tried. Well, as we sit here in the midst of this election, sadly, 40% of the country seems to not want to think about anyone but their own self-interest. No, that's very weird what's happening here. And that, of course, we knew and that there was something like that.

And in fact, some of Starship Trooper is playing with these kind of some fascistic ideas, in fact. But that it would be so big that we were talking about 40%, isn't it? 42 or 3. That is thinking in that direction. That is something that I, during the 30 years that I'm now living here, had not really noticed. Now, of course, you could say living in Los Angeles

is not the best place to judge the country in it. Fair not. But it's, for a lot of people, I think it was basically surprising that this, let's say, first reactions to the Trump campaign were so extremely positive. Well, he's a character out of like the commercials in Robocop or the world of Starship Troopers. Right.

Like that is not a far leap. No, no, clear. I mean, I fully realized that, of course. Yeah. But, I mean, without saying that the Starship Troopers was prophetic, we were still at Newmire and I, when we were working on the script, we were pretty much still aware of certain streams in American consciousness and what was happening in the already happening in the United States. but that was like small elements, you know, that used to, oh, and then we were exaggerating them for, let's say, to make, not to be giving messages, but to, to play with it, kind of. It's a very playful, let's say, attack on, I think, stars to people's on, say, fascist possibilities in a big country. Right.

You're listening to Happy, Sad, Confused. We'll be right back after this. The Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x E. It's electrified. Boogie, wooge, boogie, boogie, boogie into the forest. Boogie, boogie, boogie, whew through the mud. Or boogie, wooogie, to work, where you boogie, wugie, down the hall to your boss's office to tell him you quit.

Short got the boogie, then you boogie, boogie, boogie to the elevator. as the boogie-woogie-woogies after you begging please take me with you the electrified jeep grand charity four by e learn more at jeep dot com jeep is the registered trademark of f c a u.s llc so if you'll indulge me we can backtrack a bit to um you know your your your film work that was celebrated pre-holy pre-robocop and basic instinct etc um were you were you embraced in holland for the films that you were doing were you celebrated there what was your identity there as a filmmaker I mean, from my audience point of view, let's say that was always very positive. All these movies that we did there were extremely successful. It's still one of them is still the best. Right. In Circus, it's still like the most. The most successful movie, a Dutch movie ever made.

But at that time, let's say the committees that basically the government committees that finance European movies, European movies, not in. like in the United States where companies basically give you the money. In Europe, it's also independent money, but there is a lot of government money. So that's that, and you get that government, that money you get that, that can be 30, 40, 50, even 60% of the budget can come from the government. That's not only in Holland, so it's in all the European countries. And let's say European cinema would not exist without government help.

right and so what happened at that time we were talking about the 70s 80s is that these committees became more and more in holland to leftish and then they felt that my movies were perverted decadent sociologically let's say uh lacked any social insight lack this lack that and and so they started to decide to not give me money anymore so the more The more success I had with the movies, the less they gave me. And that was the reason, ultimately the reason that basically I decided, in fact, I'm going to say, to be honest, my wife decided to go to the United States. Because we had been getting invitations all the time, but I really, I was never like, oh, I want to go Hollywood. I want to be Hollywood director.

I was very happy, like Ingmar Bergman, with my small group of people and all talented actors and actresses and crew. I was very happy in Holland making movies there. But because of the circumstances and, of course, the fact that I got all these invitations, included even from Steven Spielberg, to come to the United States, which I didn't dare to do, but my wife dared and pushed me over the border, in fact. Well, we're grateful to her. So that's why I left. So what was the, for instance, like you mentioned Spielberg, was that just to come

and meet, or was that over a specific project, or what? General, basically, he was out of a, he called out of admiration for Soldier Warns that he liked very, very much, and said that basically you should come here, come here. There's a big country, you make bigger movies, and it's too small, Holland. So what were the, then he introduced me to the studios, yeah, he did. What were the first things, do you recall the first things that you were offered that piqued your interest before Robocop? Before that, there was an Agatha Christie story, basically, that I was working on.

Basically, I thought it was more English, probably, but it was supposed to be with American money. It was one of the, the only novel that Agatha Christie wrote that is historical. I mean, it's a thriller situated in the time of the Faro's. That comes as the end, it's called. It's not so well known. It was a really interesting project, I thought, because you would be able to do all these, yeah, with the pharaohs and all that.

It was that in the background, that was the Nile and the pyramids and all the. And that was offered to me, yeah, sure. And I think there were also a couple of projects, Ms. Jane Fonda and Barbara Streisand, in fact. But none of that really happened. That was had to do with, yeah, you never, I mean, in a retrospect, you forget why things don't go forward, but ultimately the one that went forward turned out to be a Robocop.

So did you, you immediately saw the potential of, as you say, kind of you're in for it, was seeing this as kind of a Jesus parable in a way, right? That was... Ultimately, that took me, that took me some time to see that, huh? I mean, when I read the script for the first time, I just threw it away. I thought it was ridiculous, you know? I mean, I make, no, if you look at the Dutch movies, it's all realism, you know? it's not there's no special effects it's really about people like people a lot of most of the movies I made in Holland were based on biographies and autobiographies so it was

very close to real life and then of course Robocop was like was that your first so that must been your first battle with the motion picture of the MPAA in terms of the rating well we had already this is a semi-American movie flesh and blood it was like in between the Dutch and the American career that was already I was already warned because I had to recut that

and recut that for the American market you know and Robocop was I think we had to go back seven or eight times to the MPAA the rating board

to get an R rating so we had to cut it I mean you felt that it was too violent too strong they called they say it's too strong that is the expression they used at that time

it wasn't too strong for 11 year old Josh I handled it I'm okay I haven't heard anybody. Now, perhaps because I cut some stuff out. Oh, yeah. I'd seen the unrated version. Oh, my God.

Right. But, I mean, you're not one that that subscribes to the theory of some that, for instance, a violent film begets violence, that it influences people in that way. Well, I have studied that at the time, that it was a whole topic, which was in the 80s, of course, there was a lot of writing, psychological writing. And what I got out of that is not that it was. that there was no causality between, it's not that a violent movie makes you violent.

No, that the evidence was, statistical evidence was against that. But there was a correlation that, meaning if you are a violent person, you like violent movies, or if you like violent movies, you're probably violent yourself. So that, I believe,

but that it stimulates. I mean, how can, that basically everything what's happening in the world is 10 times worse. I mean, if you really try to follow a little bit what's happening in the Middle East, isn't it?

I mean, okay, I mean, it's horrible. And even if you look at the war in Vietnam, I mean, then so many people killed there. So, I mean, why would you, why would then the violence of film make you violent? You know,

I don't buy that, you know. I think it confirms you, If you're violent, basically, you will look at violent movies, but that you become violent because you see, well, so you would not become violent because hearing that, let's say, 500,000 people or 1 million, 2 million people are killed, that doesn't make you violent. But there's one movie that is just on the screen and there's all not true. It's all that basically influences you more. I don't believe that. Moving to the next film, Total Recall. I mean, I've read a lot about sort of the development

of that film. When it came to you had it already, because there were talks of like Kronenberg was going to do it with someone like with William Hurt or Richard Dreyfus, those kinds of types of actors. Obviously, it ended up with one of Arnold's best, I think really, like, utilized his talents as best as anybody outside of James Cameron perhaps

has. Was Arnold attached to that time? Whose idea was that? Arnold knew about the project when it was in the hands of the producer, Dino de Laurenti's. and he wanted to do that movie for a long time. And he knew Dino from Conan the Barbarian. And so, but Dino felt that if you look at the script,

the original short story of Philip Dick, then you see that the main character is like an accountant, a measly guy. And Dino felt that Arnold would be absolutely impossible. So Arnold was really disappointed that he could not make that movie. Then when Dino basically went more or less bankrupt in Australia, I was there already setting up. Bruce Beresford was at that time setting it up already. They were not shooting yet, but then the company went down.

And then elements of the company were for sale. Arnold called Mario Cassar, basically, was the Caroleco guy as CEO at that time still was Andy Vina and said basically buy me that script

and Mario did he bought the script and then Arnold said and now I wanted the director of Robocop it was Arnold in charge in the whole movie I've never seen that

Arnold was in charge of everything That was the height of his past He was rowing the planet. He used them well, you know. He did. He didn't abuse them. He used them, basically, if there would be meetings about posters.

Right. He would have all kinds of ideas and would reject things. And in general, I was sitting there. I wouldn't even dare to open my mouth. But I was really, like, surprised how much, let's say, insight he had in all these aspects of filmmaking, you know. I learned a lot from Arnold, basically, how to handle the crew, how to work with people where we shot the whole movie in Mexico City. How do you work with a crew that is for 70, 80% Mexican?

And he did that in such a socially gifted guy that basically learned, started to learn a little bit Spanish, or he could basically greet everybody in Spanish. And as I always invite the crew, Paul. And I learned from him another thing. He said, there's two things about filmmaking that you have to basically take into account. And that is, one, is making the movie and you have to go 100%, isn't it?

Arnold goes, always for movies, 100%. But that's one. There is also another very important aspect to filmmaking. That is the publicity. And you should do that also with the same kind of intentions by as of you make the movie again.

And that was the last thing he told me. He said, and don't forget when you do publicity to mention already your next movie. No, but I mean, I give now a little bit, let's say, examples of who Arnold could be.

Yeah, yeah. I was because that guy could be a politician. Oh, wait. Oh, yeah, sure. Well, and he was, of course, always already at that time, very interested in politics. We disagreed, of course, on politics.

But it didn't matter with him, you know. I mean, he would never be getting angry if you would have a different opinion. He said, no, I think I'm right. Were you on the same page in terms of, I mean, some people call that ending an ambiguous one. It wasn't, it's not necessarily for me. I mean, I don't know. From my perspective, it seems like it's clearly a dream. No, it was basically, the idea was not to, the idea was to make a movie that would be working on both levels.

Right, it works. So that the movie can be completely. analyzed as a dream, or a dream that starts at a certain moment, or there is another reality there. And it's true. He was in Mars. So that was what we tried to do. I mean, for me, the most important scene of the movie is really when he's on the planet

Mars in an hotel or whatever it is. And this guy comes in, Dr. Edmire, and says, you know, I have to tell you, but you, but everything that happened, all these, let's say, adventurous thing and you're escaping and all that stuff, that never happened, you know, you're still asleep. You're still asleep in that, in that recall office. And there's a problem because we try to wake you up, but we can't do it, you know. And so they sent me in into your dream to say, okay, you have to eat that pill. And if you eat the pill now, you will come back to reality and you will be based and well that's the scene that that sells the film because that that that gives it depth and takes you out of it and makes you evaluate everything

right and then basically so it's so interesting that that i think that was really gary goldman and i that added that especially gary um not the original writers uh that he then tells dr edgemark tells you the the whole story of the rest of the movie in fact yeah you're going to be If you don't take the pill, then this is going to happen. He says the walls of reality will fall apart. Of course, the walls fall apart immediately after that. He tells you exactly what's going to happen. That you will be the bosom body of Kohagen or but you will also be the savior of the planet and stuff like that.

And then that all happens, but people forgot somehow are still interested. Well, they're caught up in it. It's not that they feel, it's so weird that they know, in fact, what's going to happen, but they don't believe it anyhow, and then when it happens, they say, oh, yeah, of course, yeah. Among the folklore about basic instinct was that Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone didn't necessarily get along. Famously, maybe you can refute that or not. But I'm curious for you, the key of directing some very graphic, intimate sex scenes, perhaps even when a co-star doesn't necessarily get along, that.

well with a co-star is that tricky for you i mean i didn't notice that really you know i i don't know on what that's really based um it was more so that um michael from the in the beginning really wanted somebody like mishap fiver to play the he felt that the it needed an ala star at that time to have to share the burden the nudity burden the sexual burden of the movie to share that with the top actress that it would at least be divided over two people. And that didn't happen, of course, none of these actors wanted to do it

because of my approach to the script, isn't it? That everything would be really new, you know. There was no escape there. There was one quote at the time that I read that at the time, your goal was to be the first Hollywood film to have an erect penis in it. Is that true? Was that a goal at the time?

not on your list. In fact, there is not an erect penis in the whole movie. I did that basically already in Spettlers, yes. You did it already. Who cares? No, no, I mean, I absolutely never thought

that would be possible in an American movie. Right. Now, we went very far, basically, took a lot of time to do the sexual scenes. But I think at that time, in my opinion,

Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone got along very, very well. What is basically probably not has been so clear to not to produce as neither critics, neither perhaps the audience, is that Michael Douglas added by being there and being, let's say, antagonistic on the set during the scenes, strongly antagonistic and challenging to Sharon that Michael Douglas was able, basically, to bring out all her talent, you know, that she needed to really walk on her toes to basically to counter Michael. And even if he would not be in frame, even if he would be the side of the camera,

giving the other dialogue, then he would be completely in character and challenge her all the time, you know. I mean, Michael being a producer also, knew that his performance, would depend on her performance and I thought it was fantastic to watch you know but what Michael basically added to the movie which you don't see that you say okay yeah it's Sharon but I think

he basically of course she did it it is her talent but he basically was really able to bring that out in the most distinctive way you know I was in awe really what happened there at the set

you know how he that she became really this person because he was like against her you know i'm sad to say that apparently your press day continues because i have so many other questions about showgirls and starship troopers i mean the film that i positively adore not to mention black book etc but i'm thrilled that you made the time to come here today and to talk about l which is a great piece of work and i hope people check it out i know they will it's gotten great reviews justifiably. Isabel Hubert, one of the greatest actors on the planet, is just phenomenal in it. And I hope you enjoyed this publicity circuit and this run, and I hope it gets a great

worthy release for you, sir. Well, thank you very much. I mean, certainly this conversation was extremely pleasant, I thought. Thank you very much. Thanks, Paul. For asking questions that were interesting to answer. After so many interviews, it's sometimes difficult because, you know, the questions are too much.

And I think this went very spontaneous and innovative. So I liked it very much and thank you very much. I've been prepping for it since I was 11. I've been working up to this moment. So we made it. Well, okay. You got me there. Thanks, Paul.

That was Paul Verhoeven. Remember to check out L in theaters on November 11th. Okay, next up on the podcast, Sammy, is Naomi Harris. Yes, she is. We've been talking about this film for a while. Moonlight, if I haven't talked it, better enough. Here comes another conversation because, damn, you guys need to see this movie. You just need to see it just here in on the conversation for awards time because this is going

to get a ton of nominations. Yeah, I don't want to sound ignorant. Don't sound ignorant, Sammy. I'm trying to help you. I appreciate it. I need it. Okay. So even if you haven't seen it yet, this is this conversation still works because Naomi Harris is an actor who, even if you don't know her name, you've seen her in a ton of things, whether it's 28 days later, the last two James Bond films, the Pirates movies. She's been in a lot of stuff and she's very chameleon-like. She always transforms to such a degree that it's almost to her detriment in a way because you don't know, oh, wait, that's Naomi Harris. I don't remember her, but she always looks different. She has a different accent, et cetera. And the same can be said for her new role in Moonlight, which is now in theaters.

And by the way, he's doing great business and limited release. As I said, I think it's going to be around for a while. So check out Moonlight and enjoy this conversation with the very talented Naomi Harris. I'm so thrilled to welcome Naomi Harris, our second cast member from this film that I adore, Moonlight. Welcome, Naomi. Thank you so much for having me. As I was saying to you, as you sat down here today, we were privileged to have Mahershala on recently. So fantastic. And as are you in this film and throughout your career. I was telling him and I'll bore the listeners with the same story. I was at Toronto. And I saw this film and I walked out of it. And I was just so moved and really felt such. happiness for the experience, but also for the opportunities for you, for actors that I'd seen in other contexts that just had such great material to work with and so just

hit it out of the park. It must be a very gratifying time for you right now to be talking about this. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's really gratifying and it's also just an incredible experience to be going to these Q&As and to be opening the movie and to see how this movie kind of just deeply connects with people's hearts. You know, it's a movie that manages to kind of rip apart all the labels that we attach to ourselves, that society wants to attach to us, and just speak to people's heart and say, fundamentally, we're all on the same journey, and that journey is for love, truth, connection, and to find out who are authentic identity, or what our authentic identity is, rather. Well, it's also, I think, a film that

I think it works in certain ways because of its specificity, right? It's a very specific story in a specific place, and yet it is, as you say, it has these universal themes that we can all relate to. And I think that's probably why it's working for audiences, if I had to guess. Like, how many times in your career have you been this happy with a product? Oh, my gosh, wow. I mean, I've done a lot of projects that I'm really proud of. Sure. But I have never been part of anything that has connected with an audience in this way.

You know, at Telly Ride, which was the first place that we showed the film, Barry, our director, actually had a 70-year-old man sobbing into his arms. And likewise, I was talking to a girl about the movie who'd seen it. And then she ended up sobbing in my arms as well. And it's just, it's extraordinary to see how deeply people are affected by it. Yeah. When you look back, were movies a big part of your childhood was pop culture generally? What kind of kid were you in terms of, I mean, I know you, obviously. acted as a kid but yeah you know what it's really weird because people always ask me like where did

you get your passion for acting from and was it from seeing movies and it actually really wasn't i just always loved this thing of performing pretending to be someone else i used to spend hours in front of the mirror as a kid trying to make myself cry imagining that i was another world but i don't know why i don't know why i had that impetus to do that i just really enjoyed it and it's still you know more than anything, it's the actual process of acting that I enjoy, this ability to just delve deep and connect with another human being in a way that perhaps you wouldn't even connect with your closest friends, but you get an environment on set where you're allowed to do that. Yeah, it's a license to be like intimate and access the parts of our humanity that we frankly

don't get a chance to indulge in a day and to discover also those parts of yourself that you didn't realize were there. Like, I miss T-Total, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't even drink coffee. So to go from me to like a crack addict is a massive jump and one that absolutely terrified me. And I didn't realize that I had that in me. But I discovered that. And I actually what I discovered through the journey was that there's a lot smaller gap between myself and Paula or anybody suffering from addiction than I initially thought. So I got to confront my own judgments. And that's so beautiful. I think that's one of the wonderful things I adore about acting is that it forces you to do that. Is it true that on the face of it at first? Is it true that on the face of it at first,

this wasn't the kind of role that you were necessarily attracted to or when it was presented to you. No, I was really scared by the idea of taking on this role because I think as an actor you have very few choices. You know, you don't have any control over the material. Really, you know, the director directs it the way he wants to do. Then the editor edits the way that he wants, he or she wants, rather. And sometimes your work is presented back to you in a way that you think, oh my gosh, I never saw it. written that way and I never wanted it to be that either. But I think one of the few areas where you do have control is in terms of what you choose to be part of. And so I always wanted to make my

choices based on representing positive images of women and positive images of black women in particular. And so I was really apprehensive about taking on the role of a crack addict because I'd kind of always drawn the line there. Yeah. So what made the difference in the end? What was the turning point? The turning point for me was speaking to Barry Jenkins, our director, and him explaining to me that the story is semi-autobiographical. It's based on his life and the life of Terrell McCraney, the playwright, right. And it's an amalgamation of their stories. And he said, look, I don't want to ask you to play a stereotype, nor do I want you to represent what seemingly seems like a negative representation of a black woman. But the reality is, I want to tell my story. And to, to

To do that, I have to tell my mother's story, and my mother was a crack addict. So what do I do? So effectively, he asked me to play his mom. And I thought, here's someone who has a vested interest in ensuring that this character is three-dimensional and has her full humanity. So when you're on, and I know you've talked about this a lot, and I apologize, but it is fascinating that for those that don't know, this performance that you see in the film, and the film, if you haven't seen it yet, is kind of told in three sections and three portions of a young man's life. And this part that you are so fantastic in and you see really a journey for your character as well was shot in three days. Yes. Which is just mind-boggling.

And not in sequence either. Not in sequence. You were in the middle of press for a bond film for Spector. Exactly. Yes. So is that like a badge of honor? Are you like embarrassed to say that or excited to say that like, yeah, I got that done in three days, by the way. Do you know what?

I actually watched the movie and I think I can't believe that we did that in three days. I don't even know how we did it. We were forced to because I had visa issues. I'm British, obviously, and for some reason, something got messed up at the visa office, and I couldn't get my visa. So it was never meant to be shot over three days, but we had to do it like that and cram it all in. But it just meant I had to do a tremendous amount of research beforehand. So I spent a month researching this character and getting to grips with what addiction is all about and really understanding the character inside and out. because I knew when I arrived I had to hit the ground running.

Well, not only that. And I think I was hearing another interview with Barry about this, perhaps, where like the first scene you shot, correct me if I'm wrong, is the confrontation scene where you're trying to get money because of your habit from your own son, which is maybe the most heartbreaking. They're all kind of heartbreaking scenes in their own way. But that scene in particular really hits you at your core, I feel. So give me a sense of sort of are you, I mean, you've obviously been doing this virtually all your life. So this is your chosen profession. You know what you're doing. That being said, do you feel a pressure?

Do you get off on that pressure when you have to dive in into a scene like that on the first day? No, that was a tough one. That was really tough because, you know, I also, I'd only been rehearsing to myself in my hotel rooms that I, you know, because I'd been going every four days. I was in a different hotel and different country. And so it was just me and my hotel walls that had seen my performance. And then suddenly I get thrust into this environment with a director who I know his mother was a crack addict. And so he knows what addiction looks like.

And I'm just not sure. You know, I'm basing this on YouTube clips that I've seen of interviews with crack addicts. And I just think, I don't know whether this is going to, you know, live up to what he wants to his expectations. So it was a terrifying day for me. And the last thing you want to do, obviously, and you all successfully avoid, what did this is like be the – because we've seen types, these kind of archetypes in films before. And you don't want to be the caricature of that. Exactly. You want to humanize this person and make it feel like, you know, she's her own tragic.

figure. She's a very, you know, I think, to your credit, you empathize with this character too by the end and you see that she's a human being. And as you say, we maybe relate to her more than we would think that we do. Well, the thing about it is from doing my research, the biggest thing that I found was that addiction really is all about pain and wanting to run away and escape your pain. And it's just that people with addictions, well, crack addiction in particular, are doing in a way that's socially unacceptable and that's extremely self-destructive. But ultimately, that's no different from any of us because we all have our own emotional baggage that we are trying to escape.

We're just doing it in very different ways. There's more happy, sad, confused coming up after this break. So you seem to be without advice in your daily. I'm sure I do have a vice. Well, that's what I'm asking? So what's the closest thing to a vice thing you have? Closest to crack addiction, I don't know. I'm not saying on that end, but maybe a one or a two on the one to ten scale.

Oh, gosh. I think overworking, you know. You seem to be, from reading up, you seem to be a type A personality. I'm a very, absolutely. Oh my gosh, you've summed me off already. I can't believe it. Am I that easy to read? No, no, no.

It's a compliment in my book. Don't worry. Thank you. Is that, is that's accurate? Is that from the start when you were. A kid, were you that kind of person? Absolutely. I'm always, you know, I was always that kid who's like, does her homework on time, you know, sits at the very front of the class, answers all the questions, Miss Goody Tooshoes, yes. So, and was acting the first thing that you found that you could focus those energies for good on?

Like, was that the first kind of obsession where you found, like, a reason to pour your love and your passion into, or was there anything else? I think it was a way of really actually overcoming my shyness because I was very, very shy when I was. I was young. And acting has been extraordinary in that sense because it just forced me to come out of my shell. And not just because of this process of acting where you have to inhabit somebody else, but also from doing everything else that surrounds the acting professions, like sitting down here today with you. Normally that would have sent me into a sweat. And I probably, at the start of my career, I just would not have been able to do it. But I've seen myself grow tremendously and been stretched, which is, it's such a wonderful thing to see because I'm all about growth. You know,

I'm just always wanting to grow and learn. And I think acting challenges you to do that in a way that many other professions don't allow you to do. Well, so, and I'm fascinating, and I want to talk about the acting, but I'm also fascinated by what you just alluded to, which is like the machinations around it. And you've worked in these franchises that necessitate traveling the world and talking to every kind of journalist with every kind of agenda in these bizarre circumstances. Side-stepping all those little holes that they want to just pull you down. Yeah. And working on projects that have a lot of secrecy around them.

And it's, I mean, it's a world that I in particular am obsessed with because it's my world too in a different way. But give me a sense of sort of like when or how did you kind of figure out how to handle that part of it. When was the first time you had to deal with the press in that way? And what were the big learnings that you kind of had? I think the biggest jump in the learning curve for me was being part of Skyfall. So, you know, Bond. That was a whole other level. That was a whole other level. And I thought, you know, I'd done Pirates of the Caribbean. I've done these other films that, you know, people have seen. But the level of interest in that movie is something. Even now, you know, I haven't done it for several years now. And but still, every interview, I'm asked about it, you know. And in particular, when I did Skyfall, you know, because I was pretending to be a Bond girl. But all along I knew I was Miss Moneypenny. And holding that secret. And oh, my God, it killed me. It was the best training ever. I feel like I became a CIA agent. So, okay, so now I can run down the questions you were asked in every interview. Who should be the next bond? Is Daniel

coming back? Exactly. That's those. Those are the questions right there. So what are your stock answers? What are you, do you have legitimate? My stock answers are, um, I love Daniel Craig, but I do. Because I just, I have to say, I love Daniel Craig. So they won't drag me down to asking, you know, like, who's going to be the next bond? So I just say, no, Daniel's the best bond that we have. But the reality, he is the best bond, right? He's the best bond that we've had in like a decade for sure. Yes. So, well, we'll get back to that. Well, let's go back to the chronology. So you're a kid, you land a pretty major part on a major TV show, as I understand it back home, yes. I mean, was it a big deal in the time the first show you were on? The first show

was on was Simon and the Witch, yes. And I was only nine years old, yes. And from what I understand, like that, that actually delivered a degree of celebrity in your own, in your own world. And maybe that wasn't the best thing for your social life and school life, right? It really wasn't. I was, yeah, I was bullied at school and it was largely because of being on that TV show because they just thought I was too big for my boots and wanted to pull me down a bit. And so how did that, how did that manifest? Like, how did that play out? And how did you deal with it at the time? Well, it's interesting because, you know, one of the themes in Moonlight is bullying. And so there's this scene where Chiron is waiting in kind of a cage-like environment, one of the outdoor

rooms of the school and he's watching the bullies downstairs and he's thinking, oh my gosh, you know, how am I going to get home? Because they're waiting to beat him up. And I remember those moments being at school and being that terrified. I remember one particular time when one of the bullies said to me that she was going to beat me up after school. And so I was so scared that was walking down the hallway and she was there and our headmaster was there as well. And so I just decided to attack her because I figured if I attack her in front of the headmaster, he's going to break it up. I'm going to be okay. then he's going to call our mums and I'm not going to get beaten up school.

So that's what I did. Preemptive strike. Yeah, exactly. Did it play out as you hoped? Do you know what the weird thing is? It's so bizarre. I was bullied for years at secondary school and that one attack changed everything. Yeah, you had the rap.

Yes. But the next day, she apologized to me and she didn't bully me anymore. I mean, I don't want to like, this is not the right message to say. I'm not sure. I don't know what happened there. But yeah, it was it was the bizarrest thing to me. Look, whatever got you through. You made it through, clearly.

I clearly made it through. So what scares you nowadays? Clearly, you're not scared. Or maybe you are by different parts. Maybe that's a part of the process. I'm absolutely scared each project that I take on. And Moonlight absolutely terrified me. I just didn't know how I was going to reach this character.

But that's the joy, isn't it? You know, to do something where you think, I'll never be able to reach that. And then you do, you find her. It's incredibly liberating. Oh, and when is the when and where does the satisfaction come for some, specifically with Moonlight? In doing it. In doing it. When you've reached it and you feel it. You know you've reached your own potential and you've come close to what you wanted. Yeah. You've connected to something in yourself that you didn't know was there initially. And you found truth. Because I don't think characters are

really outside of you. I think they're all within. It's just the outside, you know, the research outside helps to access that part of yourself that's hidden. Well, and one of the things that that strikes me when I start to, like, you know, think about the things I'd seen you in and look at your career is, I mean, to your credit, you really are very chameleon-like. You can, you can, you can, you can transform from. That's what I enjoy, though. It's, it's kind of remarkable and not many actors are able to kind of, I think, go to the range that you are. Do you, are you of the mindset that's virtually anything is within your grasp, or there are some things that are just not in your skill set? I would say singing and dancing, much as I would love them to be part

of my skill set are not. Okay, so no musicals, outside of musicals. And you know, that's the one thing that I would love to do. Really? Do you appreciate them? I love musicals. I adore them, and I would love to be in a musical, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. Have you ever tried? Like, seriously?

You know, the voiceover for me. Hey, it's happened before. Back in my fair lady days, they did that kind of thing. Did you, was that a rude awakening as a kid or in recent times did you like go up for a musical and realize, oh, no, this is just not going to work? Oh, no, I've always known. And I've always been told, like, no, you can't, you can't. dancing. When were you told or validated that, yes, you can act? Like, who told you or how did you know when you were a kid? Because that's part of the journey, right? It's like to realize that's part of what I would assume you stuck with it is like, oh, I'm actually good at this and people seem to acknowledge that. Or was it simply I enjoy it? No, I don't really remember anybody kind of saying you can do this. But what I remember is, you know, getting parts, like auditioning. And basically, as a kid, I got everything that I went up for. So it was. a huge shock for me when I turned an adult. And I thought it's going to be the same thing. You

know, you turn up for an audition. You get the parts, of course. And it was a rude awakening for me when I spent nine months unemployed auditioning for anything and everything. And nobody wanted to employ me. And this was out of drama school? Yes, after drama school. Yeah. And had you had you also done work by that time in the States or were you predominantly working back home? After drama school? Or before even, I guess. No, no, no. It was all in England at that stage and things changed after I did 28 days later with Danny Boyle and

then after that then I started to work in the States so yeah so not only do you get the the Danny Boyle experience who has been on this podcast and who I adore everybody he's the best not only a great filmmaker but also just the sweetest coolest man but that film really was revolutionary in many ways it was I think the first digital piece of filmmaking

I think in mainstream media kind of revitalized this genre of the zombie genre that we're still living through. Give me a sense. Did it feel like something unique at the time? Did you realize the specialness of that project at the time? Or was kind of ignorance bliss? Were you just getting started and you, was it just another gig or another job?

I was just happy to be working, you know, because that was, as I said, no one would employ me. I had one job in that time period where I was paid 30 pounds a week and 30 pounds wasn't even enough to cover my train fare to and from work. So to finally get, you know, a role in a film with an incredible director like Danny Boyle, I was just hungry to be on set and to learn from him as well. And I had no idea that it was going to do as well as it did. So it was a huge shock for me. But when I sat down with my family and we watched a private screening of it and I saw it for the first time, I just thought, this is extraordinary. Because it was, you know, it was all there on the page, but when you see it on screen, he just added something extra that I never imagined.

It's such a visceral experience. It's literally that cliche of the nail biter, right? Exactly. Did it feel like, I mean, how would you describe Danny Boyle's approach in that film where generally, I mean, it has a very loose, almost run and gun kind of vibe, but maybe that was based more on that specific project. I don't know if that would describe like Steve Jobs, for instance. But were you kind of spoiled in a sense by Danny? Like, what was unique about him, you think, as a filmmaker to work with? Well, I described the experience as kind of guerrilla shooting in the sense that, you know,

we weren't allowed to take over certain areas of London, but we did, because what we discovered is what the production discovered was that if you put someone in a high-vis jacket and they look like they have authority and they say stop to traffic, they stop. And so that's how we managed to take over, you know, parts of London and film this. but then as soon as any cops turned up or someone got a bit or right, then we had to pack everything away and run, you know? So it felt like a very unorthodox way of shooting. And post that, did you notice an immediate kind of sense of opportunity?

I mean, you did the, for instance, you did the Brett Ratner film after the sunset, did like a winter bottom film. Yes. Did those kind of come quickly? Was there a sense that like being a lead in a Danny Boyle film of that stature made a difference in your career? Well, I really hoped it would. kind of it came out. It did really well and I was expecting like the job office to flood in and it was not like that at all. It was there was just complete silence. In fact, I remember that I sent out like,

I don't know, a hundred CVs to all the casting directors and actually one of the casting directors contacted my agent and said, Amy's just done 28 days later. She really should not be sending out CVs at this stage. It's a bit weird. Tell her to stop. But I was like, but there's no work. And it's, it's really funny how there's a kind of delay between the work you do and then the response, because it took a good, good year and a half before the impact of Twitter. I felt the impact of 28 days later and I started to work again. So what was that year and a half? Like, was that almost in a sense more frustrating than the nine months of unemployment? I mean, I was, no, I think the nine months of unemployment was the worst period in my career ever. Because you were like, I don't

know if this is going to happen. Yeah, exactly. I didn't think it was going to happen. And I didn't feel as though I could call myself anything. I felt like a non-person because I'd go to, you know, dinner parties and people would say, so what do you do? And I'd feel like a fraud. I couldn't say I was an anxious because, like, I hadn't had a job, you know? Now I know nine months is absolutely nothing. Like, you know, it's crazy that I was stressing over nine months. You know, in acting terms, that's really nothing at all. Do you, I mean, I've talked to many actors of like, as with as star-studded a resume as possible, who still feel perpetually anxious about the next role.

Do you feel security at this point in your career? No, you don't. You know, you never do. It's not like kind of training to be a doctor when there's a set path for you. And you know that you're going to reach a certain level and then you'll be, you know, promoted to the next level and you'll always have job security. It's not like that with acting. It's all, you're always insecure.

Well, and there's so much randomness in every aspect down to you can make a great film that's the distributor has no money. You can make a Mandela, which got great reviews, that didn't necessarily, wasn't seen by nearly enough people. And I'm sure you have a ton of pride in that. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that can screw with someone's brain. Or you can have an amazing script and, you know, give an amazing performance.

And actually, in the editing, it just doesn't come together. Yeah. So it's always just luck. And that's one of the amazing things about being part of Moonlight. You know, when all these magic ingredients come together and it actually connects with people, that's extraordinary. So was the next big, quote-unquote big thing, would you consider that pirates? So was that kind of the next kind of step in your career? After 28 days later.

It was white teeth. Yes, the Zadis Smith. That was white teeth. And then it was after the sunset. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So give me a sense because I think a lot of people, you know, appreciated what you were able to do in two of the Pirates films in that. Like, those are such giant films.

And I feel like it's easy for someone to get lost in something like that in every respect, whether it's like, you know, enjoying yourself and making it a satisfying, you know, a process for yourself or just getting lost in kind of the machinations of a franchise. How was that a learning curve in operating in that world? Did that feel like natural to you to kind of take on that? role and be in that kind of scale of film? I think I just felt very privileged that I hadn't started off in that kind of world. Right. Because I think you're right. It's very easy to feel like a very small cog part of a gigantic wheel that's really unwieldy and that you feel like you don't have any influence and your voice isn't heard in that context at all. So I think it was great for me to start

off doing indie films and, you know, British TV as well, where you're made to feel, like it's a much more collaborative experience. And in terms of pirates, I just think that, you know, it was an incredible experience because it's also like Moonlight. I was only on that movie for just a few days. Right. So I got to do all of my work beforehand and then come on and just play. And Tia Delmer is still the most fun part I've ever played.

What does Johnny Depp smell like when you think back to Johnny? Johnny. Smell like. Yeah, what's his odor? Is it a... Very earthy. I was going to say, I feel like there are a lot of different elements. No one's ever asked me that, by the way.

That is an amazing question. I'm trying to break new ground. You really are. Wait, she's walking out of the room. No, come back, come back. One film that I, I won't ask what any of your other co-stars smell like, don't worry. But I am curious about Miami Vice because I really love that film. And I love Michael Mann and another guest.

He's been on the podcast. Quite a guy. Oh, wow. Quite an intense man. He's the only person to ever come here with a binder about his own work. No way. Are you serious? He was like fact-checking himself and me as we were talking.

It was like quintessential Michael Man. I felt kind of privileged. Like I was like, yeah. I'm in Michael Man land. You know, Michael, working with Michael Mann was this amazing experience because it was basically like, if you said to Michael Man, I need to learn the bongos and I need to go to Outta Mongolia to do it. He would say, here's a budget, here's the private plane, go. You should have done that in retrospect. I know, I really should have, right?

Well, he had me training with undercover agents in New York and going on drug raids with them. So I think I did pretty well out of the whole situation. Yeah, you've got a unique life experience. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it was amazing because he would just give you whatever you needed to create your character. He respects actors and their process so much. He's like, whatever you need, you can have it. How many days did you spend bound to a chair?

for that film. I think it was about three days. But never mind that. I didn't mind that so much because that was good. I got to just sort of have a sleep every now and then. But that movie was shot completely at night. So I don't know. Disorienting a little bit.

Yes. That was a really tough shoot. And it was like so unnecessary as well because it was like a lot of the time. Yeah, it was indoors. We just blacked out the window. But because Michael likes realism, we had to do it at night. And I will tell you. I'm a morning person.

I hate night time. When it gets like 9.30, I'm like, that's it. It's time for bed. So I was just, I really struggled for that movie. I have to be honest. Yeah, that's a bunch of, I mean, you also work with someone like David Eyre, who's another, like, he's a, for Street Kings, no? Was he not?

Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. David Air, another kind of like a tough filmmaker, kind of like a hard-nosed kind of guy. And then I think of like someone like, well, moving to Bond, like Sam Mendez, who is like theater, you know, theater train, comes. out of that element. I was so lucky, actually, to do Bond with Sam because of his indie background and, you know,

theater background as well, he likes a really small set. So he doesn't like a lot of people around at all. So it made me feel like I was making an indie movie. It didn't feel like this huge James Bond thing because I was absolutely terrified by the time I got on set because everyone kept in saying, you're doing Bond. It's Bond. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just another movie,

like any other movie. No, no, no, it's Bond. So was it just not a big thing where you grew up in your family or whatever? Bond was just, I mean, you know, it's part of our... No, it's if you're British. I was going to say, it has to be. I mean, and around the world, as I've discovered, since traveling around with Bond, everybody loves and adores this franchise.

So I knew it was big. It's just I didn't want people to keep on telling me that. I was like, let's downplay this guy. Just do the work, guys. So, and when you met with him, was it, like, how much did they tell you about the role? in terms of it being money penny or not or a different take on money penny. So I auditioned about three times and they didn't tell me anything about it being money penny. And I thought, this doesn't make sense.

Like, guys, you know, I'm too old. Because, you know, the bond girls had historically been like in their 20s. So I was like, listen, guys, I'm too old. I do not have the assets to play a bond girl. What are you thinking? Like, this is all wrong. So I just thought, you know, it's just part of their process because I know that they go all around the world. They audition like thousands of people.

So I just thought, this is part of their process. This is just fun. Let me just do this for experience. And then it got to like my final audition. And Sam said it's actually down between you and two others. And so I was like, really? You're serious about me being a Bond Girl? And he was like, well, actually the role is for Miss Money Penny.

And then I thought, yes, that makes a lot more sense. Now I get it. And those have been creatively satisfying thanks to Sam's work and working with someone like Daniel, despite working like on that scale, again, like pirate. It's had its own rewards for you. It's hugely satisfying because, you know, at the helm of everything is a brother and sister team, Barbara and Michael. Sure. It is kind of like a family-run company. It's 100% of family-run thing.

And also because there's so much love behind that whole franchise because it's, you know, they're living, their way of connecting with their father who died, you know, and keeping his legacy alive. So there's so much passion. And they like to keep it like a family. So everybody who's worked on it has worked for it for decades. Like my driver had been driving on the Bond movies for the last 22 years. The makeup person is doing it for Roger Moore. Well, actually, the stunt performer, his brother was the stunt performer before him and before him it was his dad. So, yeah, it's a really special feeling.

Is it funny to you that you've ended up in kind of like some of these action-oriented things? It's really weird. It's not in keeping with your kind of thing. It's so not in keeping with me at all. If anybody who knows me, they know I like a comfy chair and a good book. So it's very not like me. And what is your attitude about kind of like quote unquote franchise movies, et cetera? Because you've done two of the biggest ones out there.

Do you feel like in a way you've checked that box? Like you have that kind of, from a business standpoint, if we're looking at it in that kind of cynical way, you have that kind of recognition and associations. See, I never ever look at anything in a kind of business way. I think it drives my agent's bananas. particularly now, because they are like, you know, wouldn't you like to do this name? Wouldn't you like to do that? And lovely offers are coming my way.

But I just look for things that I connect with emotionally. And that move me, you know. And I think I can go on an interesting journey and I can learn something from it. I'm not about, you know, making strategic choices for my career because I don't think you can make them. As we've said, it's, you know, it's a lottery in terms of what's going to do well in this business.

Well, and the lesson learned out of the film we're here to talk about today of something like Moonlight, which, again, it takes all the elements coming together in the right way for this to be seen by, I think, the audience that will end up seeing it. I think this is going to get, you know, a lot of attention. And it's getting, yes, it's getting award detention justifiably so. And on paper, maybe it could have just come and gone. It could have been a, you know, VOD, whatever it was. And this arguably will have more of an impact on your career even than pirates, for instance. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? So looking ahead for a second. So you shot something for Jungle Book, yes? You shot the East, which I'm very excited

about. I am so excited about it. So was this a mocap thing, like a motion capture thing? Yes, it was. And this is Andy Circus. It's Andy Circus. It's fantastic. An incredible cast of Benedict Cumberbatch and Cape Blanche and Christian Bale and yeah, these amazing actors. So yeah. So and what was the, was that your first kind of, like, so is that like literally the suit with the balls attached to you? That kind of thing? No, you don't even have a suit. It's incredible. All they need is like you. You wear a helmet and it has a light and then you have dots on your face and that's it. And then you, you know, you're on your hands and knees, howling, pretending to be a wolf. It is brilliant.

And you don't need any lighting set up. You don't need any scenery. It's all in your imagination. So it's like being a kid again. I was going to say it's like some kind of like acting school exercise. Exactly. Yeah. Are we actually, and it's going to end up looking like a fantastic 100 plus million-dollar movie.

I mean, I haven't seen it, but I know it's going to be amazing. And who do you get to howl at the moon with? Who are you getting? Well, I'm Nisha, the mother wolf, playing the mother again. But a nurturing mother this time. Yes. And we're also going to see you this holiday season in Collateral Beauty. That's right.

An amazing ensemble in that one. Yeah, incredible. Will Smith, Kate Winslet, Helen Mirren, Keira Knightley, Edward Norton. It's an insane cast. And you shot that here in New York? Yes, I did, yeah. And is London still home or do you go back to? No, London is still home.

Yeah. London will always be home. I live on the same street as my family. So, yeah, I'm not leaving any time soon. Okay. Well, you're always welcome in New York. Thank you. New York is a sister city, I always say, to London.

I grew up here in New York, and I feel like London and New York have a lot of... No. Really? No, I think they're very dissimilar. New York is a 24-hour city. London is much more sedate than that. You know, it's like come 12 o'clock. Yeah, it's true, actually.

I'm in the suburbs. Naomi's boring part of town. In bed by 9.30. With no drinking or smoking or anything. No living, just surviving on air. They're just all just sitting on couch's reading more. Thank you. Oh, my gosh, I'm going to come back here again to get insulted.

No, it's all out of love. Perhaps if I did, you know, actually, I've never smoked a cigarette in my life, so I'm not one to talk. Ah, there you go. You're part of my camp. There you go. I'm back in the good company. Do you know what you're off to shoot next or do next? No, no.

I don't know. I've just got a lot of promotion ahead of me. So, you know, I'm promoting, obviously, moonlight, and next will be collateral beauty. Very cool. Well, as I said, I'm a huge fan of both your work and this film, and I hope people check it out. They should check it out. As I said, it's a very specific story, but a very universal one that I think audiences are already connecting with, and we'll continue to connect with throughout this award season and holiday season, et cetera.

I hope to see you on some silly red carpet soon talking about it again. Thanks for coming in Naomi. Thank you for having me. and so ends another edition of happy sad confused remember to review rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts i'm a big podcast person i'm daisy ridley and i definitely wasn't pressured to do this by josh this episode of happy sad confused was produced by michael catano james t green mukhan and kasha mahalovitch for the mtv tv podcast network with additional Engineering by Little Everywhere. You can subscribe to this and all of our other shows on iTunes,

Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever else you find your favorite podcasts. With one of the best savings rates in America, banking with Capital One is the easiest decision in the history of decisions. Even easier than choosing Slash to be in your band. Next up for lead guitar. You're in. Cool. Yep, even easier than that. And with no fees or minimums on checking and savings accounts, is it even a decision?

That's banking reimagined. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See Capital One.com slash bank for details. Capital One and a member FDIC. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance.

Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo. Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves. Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S. Army and Native American warriors, to dark corners for the disaster of the Donner Party, and shining summits for achievements like the Transcontinental Railroad.

We'll go back to the earliest days of explorers and mountain men and head up through notorious Pinkerton agents and gunmen like Tom Horn. Every episode features narrative writing and cinematic music, and there are hundreds of episodes available to binge. I'm Chris Wimmer. Find Legends of the Old West, wherever you're listening now.