Happy Sad Confused - Penn Badgley

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

Penn Badgley joins Josh to chat about his two zeitgeist-y shows, GOSSIP GIRL and YOU, plus those pesky Marvel rumors! UPCOMING EVENTS! Get your tickets now! Happy Sad Confused LIVE with Marc Maron in NYC on February 10th! Get your tickets here! Happy Sad Confused LIVE with the cast of PICARD (including Patrick Stewart!) in NYC on February 13th! Get your tickets here! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to Josh's youtube channel here! Check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! VUORI -- Go to vuori.com/HSC and discover the versatility of Vuori Clothing. RAYCON Ready to buy something small with a BIG impact? Go to BUYRAYCON.com/HSC today to get 15% off your Raycon order! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and third-party insurers. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Said Confused, Pen Badgley, from Gossip Girl to you to the MCU. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz, and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Another first-time guest this week, a very talented young actor. Mr. Penn Badgley is joining us talking about great. many things, including his latest cultural phenomenon of a show. He's got two so far in his

illustrious career. The latest, of course, is you now entering its fourth season on Netflix. I know this one has a fervent fan base. The new season is going to be in two installments. The first five episodes has dropped on Netflix, I think, by the time, yeah, by the time you're listening to this, it is out there for you guys to check out. And the last five of the season will be out, I think, in about another month. This is a great chat with a very talented actor, and we cover a lot. But first, let's talk about some happy, set, confused business, and just things going on in our world here. So, first of all, I want to mention two upcoming events here in New York City, because I always want to see you guys out there in person, if at all possible. Friday, February

10th, I am talking to Mark Maron, legendary podcaster of WTF, the amazing stand-up comedian, and actor. It is going to be a 92nd Streetwide event at the Museum of Modern Art at 7.30 p.m. tickets are still available. The link is in the show notes to get your tickets. You can also watch us live virtually. Check it out. Me and Mark Maron. So psyched for this one. Then on Monday, February 13th, this one just came around and I'm so excited. If you've listened to this podcast before, you know I'm a big old Star Trek nerd. Well, on Monday night in New York City, I'm getting together with a cast of Picard, led by Patrick Stewart himself. It's going to be me, Patrick Stewart, Gates McFadden, Michael Dorn, and Jonathan Frakes.

We are screening the first episode of the new season of Picard. If you've been following the buzz on social media, you know this is the best season yet. This is a full-on next-generation reunion on the show and in person, kind of a hugely rare event, I got to say, to see this cast assembled. Tickets are going very fast for this one. So get your tickets now. It is Monday night, 90 Second Street Y, with the cast of Picard. I'm in nerd heaven. So excited. Other things to mention, I mentioned this on a recent episode, but I want to remind you, folks, you can now listen and watch Happy Say and Confused on Spotify. Make sure to subscribe over there. That's a new feature on Spotify. Really cool that you can actually watch the episodes as well as listen. Of course, you can also watch all our episodes on YouTube. dot com slash Josh Horowitz. I want to remind you guys about the Patreon page because we have so many cool things going on over there. It's patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. You get the early access. We have four annual members, free posters. I'll sign them if you want. And if you want to be an executive producer on the show, that means free swag. That means a follow for me on social media.

and that means basically unlimited tickets to all our live events. What more can you ask for? All the link to all that stuff, all the links, rather, to that stuff is in the show notes, so check it out. Okay, so the main event today is Penn Badgley, and as I mentioned, he has had quite a career for a relatively young man. He, of course, came to prominence in Gossip Girl, and then kind of took a break, not a break from acting, but he did some kind of independent films and focused on his music. And in recent years, is back with this crazy show. I think it's okay to call it a crazy show.

It's a crazy show. He, of course, plays Joe, who is not such a great guy. He is a stalker, a killer, a murderer, but he is endlessly seductive to characters in the show and the audience. So it's a very interesting line to negotiate for an actor like Penn, but he's done it very well. He's a producer on the show. He's a director in the new season, and it has a real passion for the show. And this is a really great chat. I'd never talked to Penn before.

It's kind of surprising. But he is both very funny and self-deprecating, but also super serious in a way and really thoughtful, just clearly a very intelligent guy. So this kind of has everything you would want in a conversation in terms of like the fun, silly stuff about gossip girl, about the stories, about auditioning. and coming to fame. And then kind of the more heady stuff about dealing with fame, about negotiating these kind of like exchanges with fans.

He had a lot to say, and I was really thrilled to have him on. I should also mention, excuse me, Penn has a podcast of his own called Pod Crushed, which you guys should definitely check out. He kind of deals with those awkward middle school years. He has great guests on the show, so definitely check that out as well. And of course, look, any conversation in 2023, you can't help but talk superheroes. And I had to bring up those rumors. Have you guys heard this?

These rumors that Penn Badgley is very much in the mix for a Marvel movie. And not only that, he's been rumored very strongly to be maybe up for Reed Richards in Fantastic Four. And I can see it. I mean, I can see some of the others. They've mentioned, too. Adam Driver, of course, yes. But, like, I think Penn would be an interesting pick for a superhero film. in terms of where he's at in his career and what he brings to the table.

I would not quarrel with seeing Penn Badgley join the MCU. So let's see. Maybe we helped push it into the universe with this conversation. You'll hear what Penn has to say in just a few minutes. Remember to review, rate and subscribe. And I mean that. I'm not just saying that. Review on iTunes.

It helps spread the good word of happy, say confused. If you've listened to this show for a long while, take a minute now. Pause. Go over iTunes. Give us a good review. it would mean a lot to me. I hope you guys enjoy this, this episode, whether you're a fan of gossip, or of you, or just dashing young men with great voices and beards, this one's for you.

Here is me and Penn Badgley. Penn, thanks so much for taking the time to do the show, a lot to talk about. I'm a fan of yours, and look, you're a guy with many talents. You got a lot of titles. You got actor, producer, writer, podcaster. husband, father. And you know, those, the husband father are the most important, but I didn't want to cut you off there, but I did direct an episode this season.

So I know. Oh, I'm going to get to that. I'm going to get to that. But for me, the most important is clearly, um, relatively new TikToker. Welcome to the world of TikTok. That, yeah, that is clearly the most significant. It actually, um, we're not, we're not lying here. This is not irony.

Um, yeah, thanks for welcoming me to the, to the, to the, whatever world it is. The called the, the dark cauldron of the, TikTok. It's no, it's no darker than the other platforms. I mean, I feel like it's actually in a way, here's the funny thing.

I don't really scroll on TikTok. It, because in that sense, it does not appeal to me. It does not, I don't, it's not, it's just not my vibe.

However, it's fun to make them. So, you know, that's what I do. Yeah. I know what you mean. I'm a little bit older than you.

And I recently joined TikTok too. And I feel like it's like, how do I, how do I not, feel weird about this. And I think I think the answer is what you're saying. I don't watch with all respect. I'm sure there's some creativity out there. I don't. I put my stuff out there like this. It'll be on TikTok. Yeah. But I don't know for us late 30s, 40 somethings. Is it for us? Yeah. Well, it's clearly not. I mean, for me, Twitter's my Twitter is the platform that I

utilize the most with the most investment. But at this point, that was years ago. So talk to me about just the TikTok approach right now, because you hit it right out of the gate from the start. Yeah, that's pretty clear. Was that focus grouped? Was that an instinct? How many people are in your employ creating social media? I do not have a team like that. But I do have my friends and co-hosts of the podcast.

And we were making a bunch of other content. And it was an idea that came up. And, you know, so we played around with it a bit. and they're the ones holding the camera, you know, in that thing. And it really was the timing, man. I mean, I was waiting for years. To be honest, I thought for at least a year and a half or two years, I would start a TikTok, but it's just a matter of how.

And I'll know it when I see it. I think when social media is concerned, I'm not a generator of content. I'm more of like a responder. I don't know how to respond to something. You're remixing. You're seeing something. thing and you're yeah and so that's where um because if you look at the any viral moments i've

had they have generally been a response to something it's not something i'm doing kind of like right out the right off the right out of the gate on my own it's it's the cardy b back and forth right exactly right um and you got taylor's um approvals that's all any of us need and want that's right yeah that's true short of our own short of short of loving yourself as long no this is more But it's 2023, sadly, it's T Swift and then your own self-worth. Yeah, it is. Is part of you happy that, look, it's not like ages ago, but when the whole crazy Gossip Girl thing happened, social media was around, but it wasn't around like this.

Do you feel like- It wasn't at all, man. I mean, Gossip Girl wouldn't have been as relevant a concept with social media fully in the world the way that it is now because if you think about it the whole premise of gossip girl was that nobody wanted their private the private details of their life broadcast to their friend network well it turns out that's actually all anybody wants social media has revealed that that's um oh we've kept into something in the reptilian brain here that has to do with uh well because we don't get terro swift's affection we need it from right millions of the unknown masses yeah exactly

Yeah. We didn't get it from our parents. We're not sure about God. So if we can't get it from Taylor Swift, and we need it from our followers. Right. But Gossip Girl was, I think, a really interesting cultural moment between the world that didn't have, like, phones at all, really. Right. Because think about it. We were on razors and blackberries. razors and blackberries you say those two words to young people now they think you're talking about razors and blackberries that you eat

you know they're not it's not that doesn't mean anything to them you know you say like boost mobile I don't know what that is but we lived in that pocket you know of like newfangledness of the tech but it was still very like rudimentary

and this idea that you know there would be like a gossip website this was like this was this is a very this is a very like cutting edge idea yeah by the way hats off to the gossip girl uh this concept originator um she the woman who wrote the books uh this was like 12 years before the advent of social media this was this was long before prez hilton like the idea that kids would be blogging a web blog in and of itself was a really almost like a sci-fi concept

right so she really I don't even know if she thought of it that way but it's pretty forward thinking what about like on a personal level like you're going through what any young person goes through especially when in the other celebrity aspect

are you relieved that you didn't have access to the world 24-7 to like blurt out your inner thoughts or be photographed everywhere. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So again, I think we run the edge. I mean, when I hit into fame, it was

2007 and then the years after. So it was you couldn't zone out on social media the way that that's available to you now. You couldn't as directly engage with the your followers in that way, you know?

but but I don't feel as though I I don't really feel like I got into the fame game early enough that I'm like that I'm that I remember the old days and long for the I think it's all

can I swear on this thing? Fame is fucked up man how many more icons do we need to see fallen and depressed and and just like a shell of themselves if not if not you know i'm sorry but like dead yeah how many more do we need to see to understand that fame and wealth are not the gateway to to to to to gen to the sort of self-love and power that that t swift can bequeath unto us but seriously like that that should be coming from our parents and stuff like that. Did you know that before you started to get that? Like did you like did you like,

did you have to go through it to understand it? Or did you intellectualize it even like as it was starting to happen? Like no, I'm getting this and I don't want this. It's it's both. I don't think anybody. I mean, look at how many brilliant artists. I'm not including myself there, but I'm just saying look at how many brilliant artists really have pursued a career. gotten that and you know are still disillusioned to discover what it does like the fame

in particular you know the attention that focus on you I think like I I don't remember exactly what I was thinking about it I was definitely thinking about not acting after having been in television for already at that point eight years it was 20 years old I started when I was

12. So, you know, I really, when Gossip Girl came around, I was like, I don't know. I really don't know. And in fact, when the role, when the role was first offered to me, I said very conclusively, just no, thank you for thinking on me. But like, no, I can't. And that was based on these kind of concerns. That was like, yeah, like I really, I really, uh, wasn't sure that this was a path that I wanted to be on, you know. Um, and I think I've lived through a lot of answers to my fears, which is like, I was on to something. I'm not sure that it's, that it's, you know, I don't really believe in this point

at like right and wrong decisions when it comes to major forks in the road in life. Like, you make the decision you can and then you have to learn through it. But yeah, it's a trip, man. It's a trip. I mean, it is really interesting to just think of the cultural moment

that Gossip Girl was a part of. Like, apart from it, I got a front row seat and witness to, like, the late aughts you know which it was it was a crossroads it was a turning point in some way you know so it's interesting coming off of that and then there's you know there's a bunch of years in between that and what's happened with you you know where you're doing music and you're doing some film work etc but like i'm curious like was part of you when when projects would come around like both excited but also you knew what it could turn into all these again

all these kind of like fears and knowledge of that with success comes all the other shit that like you're trying desperately to avoid so i don't know that puts you in a weird spot because you want to achieve you want to be artistically engaged and etc but you know what comes along with it and you and you you mean after gossip girl right post that gossip girl so you now you've gone through it now you've seen the good the bad and the ugly yeah so i would say post gossip girl I think unfortunately one of my greatest concerns was like how am I going to not be known for this for the next 20 years and by the way it's been 15. Yeah, it's a real thing.

It's hard. It's been 15 years since I made that one decision once. And I was 20 and I'm 36 actually. so um i wasn't wrong to worry about that no again yeah wasn't i was on to something back then it was a smart cooking back then yeah trust your instincts kids yeah right right don't do what i did no um so i so after gossip girl i i really i actually made a couple of independent films that i loved being a part of they had phenomenal casts really good scripts and talented directors who were hemmed in

by a really tiny budget not enough time because in film you know money equals time and you need time to get things right you don't always need money but you need time I'm sure that's something like greetings from

Jeff Buckley I assume that's one that sticks out well so that one I would say is yes it was definitely frustrated by that absolutely it wasn't as frustrated as two others I'm thinking of. You know,

which are still the films that stand in their own right to be what they are. But I just witnessed firsthand. Like, I want to make I want to make something that the more I try to make the things that I want to make, the more I see that this is not what's getting greenlit and this is not

this is, it's certainly not going to not going to pay my bills, you know, so, but because I didn't have to worry about that yet, coming off of Grossip Girl, I did that for a bit. And then actually I turned to music. So that's when I started playing music professionally. That sounds like I just suddenly picked up the guitar or something.

That's when I, that's when I took a class, how to be a musical superstar. And then I finally put on the on the front burner what I'd been wanting to do actually for the last like 10 years. the original creative passion I had in life all along was to play music, to take it out of the realm of the margins and the hobby corner of life. Yeah. And really play and learn what it is to play live and be a part of that. Because you know what you don't get when you're acting on camera is the response. and you don't need the response to reward you in that way that we were saying earlier it's like the unhealthy relationship between an audience and performer you actually get a

well actually so you can of course have both but but what I wanted was at its most humble and pure that connection between connection yes people which is in a room when art is being created and performed that's very special that's very special that's very but that's an eternally human joy, you know, that's something we all have access to in different ways. And I wanted that. And I wanted to see if I could make that a career, you know. And I tried and failed.

You consider that failure. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, you know what it was. Okay, similarly. Yeah. Succeeded for a time. Right.

And realized, okay, so this isn't being frustrated by money. Well, actually, yes, it was. Actually, it is. This is where money really complicates things. that is probably ultimately what led to the the dissolution of the relationships of the band members so we couldn't really record it anymore we were poised to actually have a whole new phase

you know we toured a record we were able to sell out clubs that were like 500 or 700 capacity in major cities like you know we were able to do the thing and that's not easy to do and gossip girl we didn't get us very far with that you know it really it opens a door but not it's a novelty act at first and then it's yeah you can't in fact I feel like once critically, once people realized who was responsible for the music, it was harder. You know, the most success we ever had was with a song we released without, like, anonymously.

And then they were like, oh, gospel made this? I'll take it down on half a stuff. No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to, no, I'm not going to review that one. So, you know, so, yeah. It wasn't a failure, but that was just like, the, that, that, that, that, that, that, that project couldn't continue. Got it. Actually, when the show I'm on now, you came along,

I was considering, I was thinking about what it would take to, to have a solo career in music and taking meetings. And, you know, I had a few demos songs that I've been writing. So is that all like just on hold for four years, like while you're doing this? Or are you still like when you get back homes, it's like still the

because as you said it's not a hobby it's a real fucking thing guys yeah yeah but but at the same time I think so here's where it's not been relegated but it's but it's it is sidelined I mean it is so it's like I

there's just not the bandwidth yeah you know I mean I have a toddler now and my my stepson is 14 just turned 14 um so yeah I just it's just not it's And it's also not something that I feel the need to turn into a professional craft in the same way. I really enjoy that purely personal act.

And, you know, jamming with some friends, which actually for a TikTok I did recently. And, you know, my friend Christoph Griselle, he's, he makes music under the name Chris Youte. And he, you know, we, I wanted to help. support this track he was putting out and so we made it we made a tic-tok together and we played a little bit like rift on his own song and we actually hadn't done that at this point partly because the pandemic in like two years you know and it was it was just so nice to do again let's talk a bit about you because that's the occasion that's why we're here and to spread the good word of i want to support podcasts and yours is a good one pod crushed but um but yes you which uh is entering its fourth season

on Netflix. Again, like, it's funny, like, I, you know, not to compare everything to Gossip Girl, but I do compare them in this way, that like, gossip girl was CW. This began, with all due respect, as a lifetime series, which on paper, it's like, oh, okay, we'll see how that goes. And, like, you're hitting above your weight on both. Like, these are like, these have become these kind of iconic in their own right, much in their own right, shows.

I mean, you saw, clearly something in this material. from the start, but you probably also saw, you know, the minefields. And there are many minefields for a character like this and a show like this. Were you confident, like from the get go? Like, oh, we can pull this off. We can do what artistically and the message I want to put out into the world and not kind of trade in the. Confident enough.

Yeah. I mean, to give it a swing. Yeah. You know. But I think along the way, I was particularly concerned. because we shot it all in the dark you know we should we shot it uh before anyone had seen anything you know it used to be in the days of network television you

shoot something and right this one straight to series you say the first series the first season or yeah it uh yes we didn't do a pilot so we literally just shot the whole thing um it's it went to lifetime failed spectacularly uh uh really really did not get numbers at all they picked up a second season and it and it was actually retracted they were like oh we can you know sorry like we don't we we won't we on the money for this call this the back seas claw never mind yeah right and um but i mean to me my participation in the show is a testament to reg belanti and sarah gamble as creators and showrunners like they ultimately really know what they're doing yeah and um i put i trusted them you know at the same time like

the me too movement which it feels really reductive to call it that but it was at the time really referred to as that uh was like the thing for the thing for the thing for the first time you know harvey Weinstein trial i guess or maybe it wasn't a trial yet it was just a it was that moment was happening like in the middle of our shooting schedule and great, okay, great that these cultural level

revelations are happening, but I was like, what kind of show we're making and what kind of climate? And is this is this like a tone deaf step? I wasn't sure. I hadn't seen anything yet of what we were doing. As an actor, sometimes you're completely in the dark.

And then yeah, it just you know I think once they started to cut the episodes together they were really excited and I heard about that so I felt so then you know

you're in the middle of season you feel like you're doing something that you're supposed to and then actually to be honest people who were in the know were like Netflix they were a partner

to be clear they were like a silent partner all along they were going to stream the episodes after they would premiere on Lifetime. Now that meant it was like a very cheap, easy partnership for them.

They weren't really doing that much. They were very hands off. So once it failed on Lifetime, those who really were like in the weeds on it, they were like, Netflix is very excited about this. They know exactly. how to plug this in because it's not a it's not a mystery to them it's a science mr serendos is very pleased with you yeah right right it was very clear to them they're like we know how to make this a

hit this will be an absolute hit right it's not a question right we because at that point in this in the world of streaming netflix is the only place that had uh the the the data to support a robust algorithm you know they were like on the forefront of that youtube had its own thing in its world, but in terms of watching content like this, like Netflix is in a world of its own. And so they were like, yeah, this is like one of the second that it's off of lifetime, we are knocking this one out of the park, don't you worry. And that's exactly what they did. Amazing. That's exactly what they did.

Is it just me or in this time of year is everybody talking about making these giant changes to their lives, as if we're all going to just change overnight into a different person. For me, It's not about the giant change. It's about the small stuff and the small stuff that can impact your day to day. And for me, that's where earbuds come in. That's where Raycon, our sponsor, comes into play because with Raycon, you're getting premium audio at the perfect price point so you can build great habits without breaking the bank. They give you everything you want, at least I want, in an earbud.

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They are everything you guys need. and want in an earbud. Are you ready to buy something small with a big impact? Go to buy raucon.com slash hSC today to get 15% off your Racon order. That's buyracon.com slash hSC to score 15% off byracon.com slash hsc. Over the years, the reception to your character, has it been, I mean, this is what you were kind of going for. Like, I mean, you're, I mean, this is right? I mean, is that correct me or wrong.

Like, this is how you want the character to be received. Is it mission accomplished? Like, yeah, this is, we wanted you to be seduced in a way by this monster. Yeah, that's a good point. I think so. I think you're right. I think similarly with Gossip Girl, neither of these shows make as much sense if they're not giant hits, actually. they don't make as much sense

because they are breaking the fourth wall in some kind of way they are their cultural conversations you know they're not just these little pieces of art

to stand on their own I suppose they could that doesn't seem like to me the point so with you with this show there is something I guess when you

when you're a part of something that's huge which at this point I've had more than one of those experiences. I guess you at least know, huh, I'm tapping into something. Right. You know, at the very least, yeah. At the very least, and you have to take that at face value. Right. You know, I think what I did in the years of gossip girls, I judged it. And, you know, I suppose I've done that a bit with this one and my sort of my, my ironic refereeing of,

um, of, uh, fans reactions, you know, but that's always been tongue in cheek and, and, um, yeah, I think it's like, it's very interesting. It's very interesting to, like, to be a part of something like this and see it turn into what it is. And to have it be this character of all characters, you know, it really is something. It really is, you know. How are you received in the world day to day?

This is a different, this is a different guy than Dan. This is, how do people, what do people want out of Joe? What do they want out of you when they see you? Are they requesting creepy stairs? I don't know. I mean, what do they want? No, you know, so there's a couple levels of the question. We could take forever with this question.

Look, I'm at a period in life right now where the way I'm experiencing fame and people coming up to me is, it's not a casual experience, you know, and it can range anywhere from almost surprisingly casual to wrong place. wrong time, wrong moment. I have life experiences that make this very difficult in this moment, but it makes

no sense to try and be anything other than graceful and kind. I mean, good Lord, like why, why this is a human being? So your question is a big question to me. What does anybody want when they're, when they're recognizing

somebody and having that like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, that's oh, oh, I, well what do they want usually a selfie what is a what is that selfie? I mean I'm actually asking like what is a selfie why do we take them what is it that we think we're getting I'm not even I'm not even judging it in this moment like what is that I would like to I would love like a divine answer to just come down and give me give me so much like peace and solace and be like this is exactly what it is and this is exactly what they want and this is the role you play in that exchange but it has

nothing to do with you, you know? And it's like, okay, great, you know, but, but, but that's not, you can't keep, you can't keep that frame of mind all the time. It's, it's, um, so, so not to judge that because they, who cares? Like, whatever, we all want things, whatever. Sure. But like, what do you, from your perspective? What's the ideal interaction? What do you want? You see somebody, yeah, yeah. So, so somebody's, somebody's, it's, you know what? If they just look me in there, I, here's, here's, here's one that really was lovely and i and i and i and i and i can't even it hard to me and articulate how rare this is a woman who was like a mom why do i think that i think because she was pushing an empty stroller maybe her kid was at school or something um yeah or no she was with her kid

whatever it was i just know she was a mom um and she was in my neighborhood and she just uh she saw me for a second she was like oh she and she looked up looked me in the eye stuck out her hand and just shook my hand said oh it's nice to meet you and then left it is it is so surprising how little that happens a genuine extension of a small connection a little acknowledgement connection yeah right yeah now like i said before i do not experience this in a way that I ever want to construe this in a way that I'm complaining. Again, I'm a witness. We all are influenced by celebrity culture,

and I happen to be one of the relatively few people who's on the other side of the line with it. So we're all witness to it. I'm a witness from this side. Okay, well, that's interesting. Others need to bear witness from that side too. So to me, what usually happens, people are excited, but in their excitement,

but not even remotely even paying attention to you or your frame of mind, your tone of voice, your, your, the way you're presenting, it's, it's, it can often be so jarringly objectifying of you. It's, it's not recognizing you as a person. So even though this person thinks that they're kind of like

putting you in a pedestal, well, what's on a pedestal but an object? What's, but an idol? And to be idle. or to be objectified is dehumanized, yeah, yeah. So, and it's othering. And so, you know, I would never, like, stand on my soapbox and say, the plight of celebrities is the but, but, like, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is like, wow, this is fascinating that, you know,

I am of the relatively few who get to experience this. And it feels the same as being dehumanized. Well, and ironic, because your whole profession, and to go back to your talking about, like music and like the you know performing for folks is based on trying to establish authentic connection and yeah right no that's that's actually really strong i mean that's actually like one of the most vital points it's like what are we all doing this for and in our culture obviously there's so many things we're we're kind of misconstruing and getting confused and and are becoming really distorted and that and that i think one of them is like the purpose of art

you know like and the commodification of it and so yeah i mean it's a huge like the thing that drew me to this as a child has for long for you know 20 years now been very very quickly became something else you know i mean i was like 10 and 12 years old by the time it was already not a pure practice and not just about play and fun but it was about work and making money and um i don't mean making a lot of money i mean like turning it into an occupation and supporting myself and just trying to get those roles which you have no real control over. So, you know, it's just, it's a, it's any, anyway, in as much, in as much as anyone is interested, it's, it's, it's interesting to go, it's interesting to succeed in something like this and then see and then see kind of like everybody does, the universal

thing which is like ah the thing i've been pursuing is is not going to bring me the sort of solace that allows me to to smile really you know to to have peace and contentment in my life really you know to support loving relationships really you know it's so that's i think i'm actually grateful to to be having that experience i really am to to have in a way way such an extreme experience yeah but to find the universality in it and to and to hopefully in time i actually kind of want a storytell about this this is this is a value to me this is a valuable it's a valuable uh story to tell not necessarily mine but like it helps bring to the table like as long as we're also obsessed with celebrity and obsessed with like screens and the media saturation

and everything i think these are the sort of stories that that should come forth from people in my position more I want to talk to you guys about performance apparel and our sponsor this week viori because guys I have become so sick and tired of the traditional old workout gear it's not comfortable it's not functional it doesn't look good that's where vori comes into play everything is designed to work out in but it doesn't look or feel like it it's so comfortable it's probably I guarantee actually it's more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now Plus, it's versatile. It works with any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga. Whatever you do, Viori works for you. And Viori is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. I love that about this company. They are also reducing offsetting 100% of their plastic footprint from 2019 and beyond. They're utilizing better sustainable materials for their products, empowering your best active life. And again, guys, it's versatile. It's comfortable. It's designed to look. great in your everyday life. Yes, outside the gym, this stuff looks amazing on you. So get in on

it right now. This is an investment in your happiness. For our listeners, Viori is offering 20% off your first purchase. That's right. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at Viori.com slash hSC. That's V-U-O-R-I-com slash h-S-C. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any U.S. orders over $75 and free returns. Go to viori.com slash hSC and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. no i can't i'm revealed that neither confirmed nor deny no i do i don't know what to say about that have you ever met kevin fagie pen badgley no you know it's possible it's possible that i have but not in this context i might have met him years ago and i wouldn't you know i'm not sure okay

okay um is there any smoke to this fire of this uh fantastic four rumors of reed richards is that intriguing to you what what can you say you know where there's smoke there's not always fire it actually takes a lot to get from smoke to fire i'll say that it takes a lot so should i should should i feed the fire do we want to pen do you want my help in feeding the fire or are you that's not that's not that's not how that's not how this fire gets lit this fire gets lit by kevin i don't even I'm trying to pronounce his name. It's Feig. Faggy, that's the first thing.

Fagie, Fagie. All right. I'm trying to help you, man. All right. So I'm clearly not going to, I'm clearly not in a Marvel movie now. I can't. Are you, are you a comic book guy? Like, did you read Fantastic Four?

Did you grow up with that stuff? No, no. No, the only comic books I did read were Spawn and a bit of Spider-Man. I did love Spider-Man. And then a bit of Wolverine. So, yeah, so Fantastic Four was never on my radar. Okay. so an open mind at least to this kind of world yeah yeah yeah for the time being yeah okay so uh we haven't

even mentioned and i don't want to spoil stuff about this new season but it's a new new new context new city uh major twist major turns as anybody would expect from this show um and you direct you mentioned this earlier was that on the docket for a while have you been kind of being like nudge nudge nudge hint in well i don't yeah not well for this show i think i was hesitant to direct, partly because of my reservations, I'm like, my reservations might make me a good actor, but they might not make me a good director for this. I believe in my capacity as a director, but again, is it right for this? I'm not sure. But yeah, and I just, I think I realize like at this point playing this character for so long, I'm either going to, I have to, I have to

embrace it even more and lean in, or I'm probably going to end up checking out. that's that's that's just human nature you know yeah yeah yeah so i thought i'll lean in you know yeah and um and i really took to it naturally which wasn't a surprise i mean i've been wanting to direct for a while uh and it's an aspiration that'll you know i'll be doing more in the future but um it is also different to be to be starring as joe and directing it's it's a it's a it's a a it's a very specific kind of beast yeah and i'm not looking for that specific experience so much any actor director i've ever talked to it the goal is always like get me out of the frame let me just let me just concentrate the job it's it it's yeah in in some weird ways

i almost had more freedom with joe than i'd ever had because i wasn't thinking about him i was having to do a million other things so i actually liked being joe in that context but i could not sustain that for a whole season oh there's just no way It was even hard to sustain it, you know, for one episode. So I think, I think, yeah, we'll see. It's possible I could do another one, but I, yeah, I don't, I don't think I'm going to try on this show. What's your attitude about this series? Obviously, some of it's out of your control and the audience can be fickle.

You never know. But like, is it year to year for you? Is it like, yeah, I could see there's still three more years of Joe and me. I could still see. So it's not, it's, it's actually, we do sign a contract in the beginning, and I'm not year to year. It's, I signed a six-year contract right out the gate. So they could do two more if they wanted. Okay.

I think if there's another season, I think it's only going to be one. I think, I, this is my understanding, but I don't know. I really don't know. But I know that everybody concerned from the top on down, nobody wants this show to become tired, because that's when. That's when Joe is the, is the most disgusting. That's when the show stops having this, the, the intelligence that it has, you know. Right. So, so we're not at the end yet.

But speaking of an end of the previous big one, which was, of course, Gossip Girl, I'm just curious. I'm sure people have talked to you about this. But like, when you discovered you were gossip, was that a shock? Did you retroactively, were you like, wait, this would have been cool to know four years ago? I could have acted this a little bit differently. No, you know, I think it would have been. I think it would have been, first of all, we just know, practically speaking, that it doesn't make sense for anybody to be gossip girl.

She did too many things to too many people, saw too much. Right. So if they told me any sooner, actually, I would have been like, but I can't, how am I going to, no, but I got to do this thing. You know, so, so I knew right before we started shooting that episode. That was, that was, that was, I didn't even know in the beginning of the season. so were you like cool or like oh man i was i was definitely i don't remember what i did or said but i was like i'm after all of this i am gossip girl you have to be kidding me like like okay all right and you know now i think it's not many people can say um like first they were gossip girl then

they were you you know that's a pretty good tagline there you tagline for my 20s on mid-30s. I know you talked about turning down the role. I read this recently. I don't know if it's true that Jennifer Lawrence was actually up for Serena. Do you remember reading opposite Jennifer? I'd never heard that in my life.

Well, I didn't read opposite anybody. I came in last. Because remember, I actually turned it down and then I think, so they had cast everybody. And they were like, for some, and again, for the life of me, I do not know why they thought it was so important for me to play Dan.

I am not, this is not any kind of humble brag at all I do not think I contributed that much to the to the to the to the no this is not this is come on this is this is this is this is so so many like like what everybody else brought to their characters I think was so distinct I had no idea like I was resisting it I was I was I was I was just to me I was not the person to to to play that to be on that show and then you know but they just they they really felt strongly. And here's why I think I actually am on to something

because Dan was not the heart of that show. This is, this is, this is, this is, this is what I actually like feel comfortable

going on record saying. Okay. It's, it's not like, oh, I did nothing or I'm trying to diminish my role in it. Okay,

no, fine. But actually, I think, um, what the fans of that show came to love, really was Chuck and Blair.

And for good reason. Like, I think that show discovered, it's not concerned. about the nice guy moral center the whole point was that it was amoral not immoral but amoral it was it was it was a strange sticky fantasy you know and and the whole point is that everybody wanted to be chuck and blair and nobody in the world can ever be chuck and blair because they were 16 year olds and 60 year olds bodies they had they had the relationship of like you know

french artists with billions of dollars in their in their mid 40s like drinking skis and smoking cigars and flying around the world i mean you know nobody lives that life but that's what the show is about not the guy who's sitting on the sidelines judging it all you know what i mean like that's that's that's actually true that's an objective i think it's both elements to be fair i think it's you can have you need them both you can't have all the frosting and the icing you got to have the jaded observer you know what i'll say about about my contribution i this is where you know it's not it's not nepotism or or or um but you know i did have a relationship with the creators of the show before that i'd done a show with them before and i think they wanted to work with somebody they

knew would hold it down and be nice on set and like i it does it does i mean that's probably it because i know it's not like i ever did anything that distinct from my performance and Again, you don't always have the opportunity to, depending on what it is. And I really think that there are so many people who could have done something great with that role. But I think they probably were just like, we know that guy. And we know he's a good time. Let's cover our basis. And the voice and the facial here.

Again, let's not diminish some of your attributes, man. Sure. Okay. Sure. Again, utilize to great effect. Utilized to great effect in my current show I don't Wait did you ever you never had a beard in gossip girl did you?

You never have facial facial they totally lift on that one Before I let you go I do want to give some love to the podcast Because as a long time podcaster I'm a fan of yours and it seems like a passion project Something you've really dug Have you gravitate? Have you kind of embraced it? Does it feel like it's in your wheelhouse and you've learned a lot

or what's new skills? I think so. Embracing, you know, learning the last, the first season, which was the last season, we were doing while I was shooting. So it was a phenomenal shock to learn how much work a podcast is. I wasn't that surprised, but to do it while I was shooting my show was like was a lot. Yeah. But apart from that, it's been. It's been really, it's been nice to just to do something very different and to do something

that I'm producing on my own, you know, of course, with my co-hosts and something from, not my own mind solely, but something that is just exploring things a bit more on my terms, you know, it's fun. And for those that don't know, this is dealing with, for you and for most like the pivotal. Let's hear the same thing. Let me sell the thing. So it is called pod crushed. And we use middle school stories, stories of awkwardness, stories of rejection, heartbreak.

And they range anywhere from like really fun and kind of light to they can be quite profound and really shocking or really, really bittersweet and poignant. And what we're doing all the while is just exploring this, this period of life of adolescence, coming of age. Like, what does it mean to come of age? What does it, you know, when you're becoming you, what's happening? Why is it so awkward? And why are some of those experiences still like, you know, stamped in our mind and make our ears burn, our palms sweat when we think of them? We just sort of love that.

And a lot of the conversations, they just, they go all over the place because it's a nice portal. to get people to think um maybe more deeply than they're used to in a in a celebrity interview about you know just like where they've come from and and and why they feel the way they feel no it's it's hugely relatable yeah i mean i think back to my those those crazy years for me i was such a fuck up and and it was just sort of like that's like kind of where like overachieving josh turned into the fuck up josh and then i had to kind of recalibrate it's it's just it's kind of interesting, and I don't think about those times much, but they have so informed, they inform all our lives, those years. It's kind of crazy. Well, congratulations, man. Thank you. I know this has been a busy

press day, so I appreciate kind of like some deep thinking, some real conversation in the midst of it, man. Yeah, well, I hope I didn't take you on too many detours. No, I love it. I love it. Folks should check out season four, part one, breaking it up, just keeping them coming back for more, aren't you, for season four of you on Netflix, check out Pod Crush. and if you see Kevin Feigy tell him Penn knows how to pronounce his name now at least. Thanks for the time, man. I appreciate it.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Hey, Michael.

Hey, Tom. You want to tell him? Or you want me to tell him? No, no, no. I got this. People out there. People lean in. Get close.

Get close. Listen. Here's the deal. We have big news. We got monumental news. We got spectacular news. After a brief hiatus, my good friend, Michael Ian Black, and I are coming back. My good friend, Tom Kavanaugh and I are coming back to do what we do best.

What we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack. To eat a snack. And to rate a snack. Nentifically? Emotionally? Spiritually. Mates is back.

Mike and Tom eat snacks. Is back. A podcast for anyone with a mouth. With a mouth. Available wherever you get your podcasts.