Happy Sad Confused - Phil Lord & Christopher Miller, Vol. II

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

It's been nearly 8 years since Lord & Miller have visited "Happy Sad Confused" and they've somehow fit a lifetime's worth of projects in the interim. There's a lot to catch up on including their new murder mystery, "The Afterparty", their animated film, "The Mitchells vs. the Machine", Spider-verse sequels, Muppet movies, & more! Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Let's dream together. Visit Merchantsbank.com to get started. Merchants Bank is a proud member FDIC. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Phil Ward and Chris Miller on The Mitchells versus the machines, the after party, and the Spiderverse. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harrow.

It's welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We've got some returning champions on this week's episode, all the way back to the early days of Happy Sad Confused. Phil Lord and Chris Miller were some of the first guests on the podcast way back when. And in those eight years since, these guys have made a ton of amazing projects, Lego movies, Jump Street movies, animated TV, film, they run the gamut. The only consistency is quality, generally. They've got great taste.

They are able to make unlikely projects into entertaining, fun, and innovative projects. And that certainly fits the bill for their new work. The After Party is their new show on Apple TV Plus. You probably have seen the reviews by now. This is a lot of fun. It's an old-fashioned, whodunit. The conceit here, though, is every episode of the show is a different genre. So it is filmed differently, has a different feel and look.

One is a musical. One is a rom-com. One's action. One's animated. The consistent part of it is, of course, the story and the stellar cast that features our good old friend Ben Schwartz, Tiffany Haddish, Ike, Baron Holtz, Dave Franco, the list goes Sam Richardson, the list goes on and on. They're all comedy, all-stars in their own right, and they came together to make this great new show.

So I highly recommend the after-party. It's on Apple TV Plus right now. I've seen everything but the final episode, so I don't know who did it. And I will be tuning in when it comes on in a few weeks. Meanwhile, on Netflix, in your Netflix queue right now, or if it's not in the queue, if it's not in it, at it right now, The Mitchells versus the Machines, a delightful animated film they have produced. This one came out a few months back, and it is very much being talked about. And the awards conversation could very well take home at least a nomination,

and perhaps an Oscar win. These guys have won an animated Oscar before for Spider-Verse. So speaking of Spider-Verse, there's a lot of Spider-Verse talk in this episode. Phil and Chris, of course, made the last Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse film. They are currently working on the next two films. Yes, you heard me right. Two films are being made right now simultaneously. I believe one comes out next year or at the end of this year.

I need to check my dates. I don't know. All you need to know is two more films coming in the next couple years in the Spider-verse. Very excited about that one. A lot of talk about that. Plus, they're working on some TV shows in Spider-Ver. and these are live action shows. We talk a bit about that.

This conversation covers a lot, guys. There's the Jump Street talk about the films that haven't been made yet, the Greatest American Hero reboot they never made. Yes, a little bit of solo talk. Of course, the one like chink in their armor is they were supposed to direct, they were directing the solo film

and it didn't work out. Not everything works out, but they've got a good attitude about it all. And that part of the conversation is definitely interesting. I think, for Star Wars fans and Lord and Miller fans. But bottom line, these guys are always great to talk to. They're two of my favorites, so I know you will dig it.

Other things to mention, let's see, I'm keeping very busy guys, as always, wearing my multiple hats, my podcast hat, my MTV hat, my Comedy Central hat. I just, I have a big closet filled with many hats. And more to come, by the way. Another show that we're developing that I'm excited to talk about very, very soon. There's a little tease for you. But yes, on the MTV and Comedy Central front, I chatted with Tom Holland and Mark Wahlberg.

There's some fun stuff with those guys coming very soon. By the time you listen to this, my conversation with Sebastian Stan, I did for MTV, should be up. As always, the easiest way to find all this stuff, just check my social media feed. Joshua Horowitz on Twitter and on Instagram. That's the easiest way to follow all my stuff.

I have trouble keeping up with what I'm doing myself, but I try to push it out there as it comes through the transom. And hopefully you guys are digging all of it. I want to mention over on the Patreon page, we're very, very active right now. In addition to this video interview, this video version of the podcast, as always, whenever possible, that's available. But also a lot of game nights coming up, guys. I have now, let's see, we taped one yesterday, and I don't want to reveal these yet, but I taped one yesterday with a cast of new people I've never talked to, actually.

but from a TV show that you guys are obsessed with, that you guys are obsessed with, many of you, I know for a fact. So I taped that yesterday, that's coming, and I'm taping two more game nights in the next week. So those will be staggered over the next weeks, month plus, but lots of fun guys, lots of, as I said, new people, some returning people, all of them representing beloved TV shows. you know and love. Hopefully that is as much of a hint. Hopefully that'll entice you. Check it out. Patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused.

The link is, of course, in the show notes, as always. What else can I tease? You know, I don't like to announce things before they're ready. We're working on some potential live events. And again, I've probably jinxed it, but I'm trying to make this happen, guys. Now that, you know, it feels like the COVID atmosphere here in New York City is actually pretty good in terms of the numbers,

trying to still be safe, as safe as possible. I don't know how I've avoided COVID for two years. Again, I've probably jinxed myself. But it feels like a lot of people are feeling comfortable with doing some live events more. I'm certainly in a headspace where I feel like I could do some of these here and there. I've already moderated a bunch of things. So stay tuned, some happy, say I confused, live events. We're working on it.

We're doing our best. It's hard to kind of line up all the ships with the right guests, the right venue, the right timing. But know that this is actually, I'm spending a lot of time on this right now because I want to do it. I know you guys want to do it. So more to come on the podcast. I'll make the announcements. But, of course, the first place I'll announce stuff is on the Patreon page, patreon. com slash happy, sad, confused.

I think that's about it before the main event. Here's one thing. I never mention it. I should mention it. Leave a review. I used to mention this all the times. This helps spread the good word. Leave a review, if you would be so kind,

on the Apple, on iTunes, you know, a positive review, I should mention. I don't need your negative review. If you have a negative review, write it and put it in a bottle and just stare at it. But if you have a positive thing to say, write a positive review. Give me five stars.

Give me six stars, if that's possible. This is all just about spreading the good word, letting other people enjoy this podcast that hopefully you've come to love. All right. That's my PSA for myself for today. Here is my conversation with two delightful gentlemen geeking out, as always, about all the cool stuff. Here's Phil Lord and Chris Miller.

Why, look, it's Bill Lord and Chris Miller, the dynamic duo that has outlasted Kanye and Kim. The Cohn brothers, who would have thunk it? You guys just keep on trucking. Keep on trucking. That's your motto. That is. We have a lot of compromise on one another. That's right.

Any partnership. Mutual assured destruction. That's what it is. So many incriminating photos, so many voice memos. Lord. That's what happens when you go to college together. Welcome back to the podcast. You guys were one of the first guests on Happy Second Fused nearly eight years ago.

Right. Hard to think we could improve on that appearance, but we'll try. No. it is good to have some history with folks, and it's good to have folks that just create an insane body of work that makes it overwhelming for me to research. Like, I feel like I know the Lord of Miller-Uvra. I know it well.

And then I start to, like, look back at the filmography again today, and I'm like, oh, my, you guys are just obnoxious in productivity. It's just... I don't know what does the matter with us. I'm home. I'm here in my mom's office. I'm home hanging out with my parents and my sister and her kids. and my nephews are like, how many things have you made?

And I said, I don't know. I forgot. Speaking about you guys as a unit, do you resent the fact that Wikipedia has you down as a collective unit and not as isolated human beings? No, I think. I'm with that. I mean, that's been part of our daily life. People get us confused. They just call us, where's the other one?

They don't know which is which. It's fine. It's fine. We are, to the DGA, we had to present ourselves as one, one soul in two hosts. That's about right. I'm also very shy, so I like having, like, you know, hide behind Chris's legs, like a top. It's not, it's not, you never lonely. I think of you guys is like the creature from Total Recall, the clotto, where like one of you.

Oh, yeah. I'm inside Chris's, yeah, that's right. I'm like a parasite living in Chris's ribs. This is now promo for the new movie, Malignant. I don't know if you guys have known about it. We're doing the next malignant. Oh, my gosh. We're announcing it now.

There must have been... It'd be so funny. There must have been a week, a day, a month where you guys took a timeout, where you said, we love each other, but let's just reassess, like in any relationship. Well, we did, when we moved to Los Angeles, not to brag, but we, We moved into Park Libreia Tower 46, Apartment 5C. And we shared a bedroom and we had like Burton Ernie beds next to each other and had to like, are you good to go to, I'm going to turn out the light.

Are you done reading? Leaper. And then we also commuted to North Hollywood, again, not to brag together. And we worked in the same office. And so the only time apart was like showers. and laundry. And that was like, we need some space here. Maybe we should get separate apartments.

That was a good choice. I was against it, Chris, but whatever. You're a part of his anatomy, of course. Why would you want any separation? That's right. The surgery will be painful, but it will be productive. There is a lot to talk about, as always. I've enjoyed all the recent work.

Let's start with the after part. There's so much damn love for this one, guys, and well-deserved. Congratulations. Oh, thanks. Thank you very much. We're so relieved. I'm psyched people are seeing it. Yeah, I mean, you never know, as you well know.

This one is really clicking with audiences. The reviews are just insane. I mean, there's a lot to talk about. First of all, it's a fascinating show for those that don't know. It's a who-done-it. It is a show that switches genres episode by episode. I know this started as a feature. Talk to me a little bit about, okay, initial idea.

Is the initial idea I want to play around with a whodunit? Is the initial idea of the form? Like, I want to play around with different genres within at the time. I know it was a film. What was the first kind of... Yeah, I mean, I sort of came up with this idea of 11 or 12 years ago. And it really came out of my love for murder mystery. It's a genre that I've always...

absolutely adored. So I thought, oh, it would be really cool to do it in a sort of Roshaman style where each suspect gets to tell their version of the night and then just the puzzle of it of being like each person sort of gives a clue and then add up all the different points of view and you can solve the mystery. That was the original idea. I went to my high school reunion and it seemed like a perfect place to set a murder mystery. And it wasn't until sort of like getting into it and figuring out what the thematics of it were and how it was really about perspective and empathy and how you can sort of see the world

through your own myopic lens and not realize or sort of stereotype other people that it became clear that what it was really about. And that's sort of when, and then when we expanded it into a series and we really could like dig deep into each person's perspective and let them be their own thing and their own style storytelling

and really lean into the film genre, genre aspect of it. And so that came about later in the development because, you know, it was almost like a weird puzzle exercise at the beginning that sort of that grew feelings along the way. It started with one of those perp charts that you see in like police procedurals and, you know, homeland at like Carrie Matheson's house. But it was in like Chris's office. There was yarn everywhere. And he's like, this is the, I have an idea for a movie. It's this pile of yarn in my serial killer wall over again. And I can't get out of it. I have to write it so I can get my office back and my children will stop looking at me in a weird way. So that mission accomplished.

Yeah, all your work is obviously so dense in every way, in the good use of the word. I know. We don't like it until it gets really hard. And I feel like that's why, like, it didn't totally click and get made until we've figured out a way to make it even harder, but instead of making one thing, we could make eight different things. Well, that's the funny thing. Like, you know, for those, you know, for people that make TV, part of the joy is, part of the shortcut is, oh, I've used the same sets, the same style, the same everything. You guys, you fucked it up. You totally know. We did it the most complicated way where every episode, different lighting, different cameras, different lenses, different costumes, different music.

Poor Daniel Pemberton who did the score and did the Spider-Verse score with us. How to do 10 different genres of music. And so every episode was like a whole new like reinventing the wheel again and again and again. It was really, he really didn't realize what he'd sign up for when he did it. But that's part of the fun. This cast, this is one of those cast that like is just stellar from top. to bottom. They're already very accomplished in their own right. But I also do think this is the kind of cast that like in five or ten years, you're going to look back on and be like,

how the hell did they gather that group in one place for a few months? Because it's, they're all in different kind of like levels of success right now. But I feel like it's all going to equalize in five or ten years and they're all going to be like ruling comedy and acting, right? Well, there was a pandemic on. It was, you know, it was a slightly less competitive. Best thing for availability. Right. Well, it was, yeah, everyone, I mean, was, We were very lucky to get that group of people. And they're not all just great actors. They're also, all of them pretty much are hyphenates

where they're like writers, producers, directors, creators of stuff. And so they all come at it with this like intelligence. Like you're asking these people to, you know, not just do their own character, but to do eight different shades of their character going like, well, what's the rom-com version of my character and what's the horror version of that character? or you're like, your brain has to be a certain way

in order to understand how to do that. And then they could add so much to the show because they could understand what it was as a whole and think about it like writers, producers, directors, as well as actors. You guys were early adopters, thankfully, of the Dave Franco, getting the Dave Franco thing. You knew there was gold to be mined in that sweet.

Something about that guy, yeah. Well, like, we've got to know him on 21 Jump Street, he plays, you know, a heel. And we, we auditioned a lot of people with Jonah. And Davy got the most out of Jonah because unlike some of the other people that auditioned, some of the other folks, they, they, like, they created a competitive feeling in Jonah. And so, like, a lot of their improvisations were about, like, one-upsmanship. Right.

And for some reason, Davy, be like, he inspired Jonah to want to, like, be his best friend. And so then all the improvs were about, like, how much Jonah liked Dave and how he wanted to, like, get into his world, which, of course, was, like, great for his relationship with Channing. So you, something about Davey just makes you, like, fall for him. And when we were thinking about this part, here's a guy that you have to spend the whole, the whole show going, like, yeah, everybody, that's. guy probably deserved to die. You need someone who can ballast that with enough humanity that you're on his side.

And you want to solve the brother. He was really invested in figuring out ways to sort of humanize him and not make him just sort of like a one-note douche. And he did an amazing job of it. And later in the season, you get to see more sides of him and sort of almost feel sorry for him.

Almost. Almost the operative word. And that's really and that's really fun. And he's really, and he was really game to do anything. I mean, he, like, wearing that suit with no shirt, dyeing his hair blonde. We made a music video, and he recorded four songs for the show. They beat me out right now. That's right.

Amazing. R.I.P. Xavier. I could explore the glorious, expanded universe of Dushbag Xavier endlessly. There is a lot. We made a lot of props of various Xavier-branded serials and grooming care. X's and O's. I love it. I love it.

Okay, a lot to cover. Let's also mention this great animated film. Came back a while ago, but it's still staying in the conversation. People are still digging it. It's getting awards conversation right now, which is always nice. The Mitchells versus the machines, which you guys have produced. Talk to me about, you know, unlike a lot of stuff you've done, a lot of animated use, stuff you've done. This is not IP. This is not something that is derived from another source.

Is that tough to get off the ground? Or are you guys at a stage where you get some trust from Sony and, I guess, Netflix then acquired to make something like this? There's obviously clearly enough trust. These movies are expensive and it took a second to help everybody see what we saw in this movie. But they obviously committed hard to it and it is it's an original animated movie about a very original family and it's told in a way that you know that you've never seen an animated movie tell a story before and for us that you know that's exactly what we're dedicated to doing and when we met mike rienda we saw it early early early past that he'd done and it was funny and it was warm and it was daring and our whole thing

is I don't want these animated movies to become a genre, to become a product or a formula. It's not the province of like, you know, it's not the province of like, you know, companies and shareholders. It's like people make these things. And, right? And so, and we came up making animated movies in like a studio together at college where it really was like a handmade thing. We drew every darn frame. And our favorite animated films that inspired us are all. like strange independent shorts that were made like former breakaway Soviet republics and so that that spirit of it is is is why we wanted to make Spiderverse and why we wanted to be part of Mitchell's and it's and it's why Sony is a was Sony is a special place to make a movie because they don't have a

house style they don't have like like a formula that they use and and so we were able to and because of our relationship with them and we were able to say like this is going to be good we guarantee it we're staking our word on it and you can just trust us and and they did and that was great that's a good place to be in that's a good plateau to reach i mean i often hear about like in respect to like for instance the Pixar films like these films are always on the precipice of abject failure before they become brilliant is that part and parcel of the nature of animation uh have you guys experienced that with this or other films were Every single thing that we've done, we've had some screening midway through the production

where we all looked each other and go like, oh, we are screwed. We are absolutely screwed. Even Spider-Verse, we did an early test in Arizona, and it did not test well at all. No one ever liked it. We made some adjustments. We figured out what people were, you know, bumping on and why they weren't engaging with it. And you just keep working.

It's a product that you're like, I mean, it's just a thing that evolves and you, the audience sort of tells you what it wants. Yeah. And then you have to figure out the way to give it, give it what they don't realize they want. It is a case of just grinding. Yeah. Where you kind of go, I'm trying to sustain an audience's engagement in this thing for as long as possible, which means you have to sit there and watch it going. like, all right, those five seconds, those are great. The next five seconds, those are great.

Then something happens in my body, like the whole thing grinds to a halt. And I'm like, what? That was dumb. And then you got to either cut it or beat it. Usually we try to beat it because, you know, we try to leave it all in the field. And they only cut things down as a last resort. So it's, you know, we've been working on a sequence that opens Spider-Verse for the, you know, about a year, and it's getting good, finally.

So you're at the stage where it's starting to actually look like. Right. It's such an iterative process. Animation is a very iterative process. You get to see it and feel it first before you finish it. And I think that's part of why a lot of animated movies turn out so great because you have a chance to, like, ask your gut, is this working or not? Right. in a way that it's hard to tell when you're on set on a live action movie or show where you're

like shooting a scene like you get a sense of it but you don't have the chance to like watch it think about it and go like you know what we're doing this all wrong let's flip it around and do it over again right yeah it's it's it's curious because you have to make these things with your this part your frontal lobe which is the smartest and stupidest part of your body but you watch the movie with everything else. You watch your movie with your stomach. And so you have to be honest with yourself when you're watching the material going, I'm not into this.

I don't know what it is. And then you can use your big dumb, you know, the gray matter to try to decode why that was. But the stomach, that's like true. That's true, the truth. Again, always focused on the stomach, I guess, as a quato, that's just where you live. That's where you live. The second most nerves in the body. Why do you think our first movie was Clydie with a chance of me, folks?

It's all about the time. So speaking of Spider-Verst, the last time I spent some quality time with you guys was on that circuit. I remember moderating a New York Comic-Con event that where Shamique ruined the first act of the film by telling the audience on a live stream what happened, not realizing. I think that's right. Yeah, right. Didn't he say that like Peter Parker died or something? No, no, no, no. Only people in the room saw it.

No, no, no, Shemik. listen we're all learning all the time god bless him you were a very gracious host that day always fun always fun and um talk to me i'm so endlessly fascinated on where we are in spider-man world because right now there are okay so there are two different there are two different spider-man multiverse spider-man franchises going or are there this is my question all the multiverse is big and wide and all things grow

in the universe I mean all I'm saying me as Josh Sony the heir to the Sony franchise would not want two different things you would want it all to cohesively come together wouldn't you that would create why would you think a multiverse in which many many

things are possible that they're not related right that everything is possible except for this one thing that everyone wants. So, okay, I don't expect you to spill a lot, but I'm just, here's what I'm curious about. Like, how plugged in, like, when did you know what they were doing at a no way home? Because I remember you guys talking about wanting all those Spider-Men in potentially an end sequence in Spider-Verse, was that scuttled partially because they were already thinking about bringing them together in live-action?

Was that your understanding? You're imagining a level of forethought that is. It's adorable. It's adorable way I think. I know, I know. It's very generous of you. We work, you know, Amy Pascal, who it was a producer on Spider-Verse and also on the live-action Spider-Man's,

and she's been, sort of our conduit to knowing exactly what's been going on in the Spider-verse in its various forms. And the writers and the director are all buddies. of ours so we sort of have been in the loop as far as what's going on and we always are trying to make sure that we're not stepping on each other's toes and telling different types of stories and different themes and all that stuff because people want an original story that feels new and interesting and it's our job to give it to them it's a bit of a like a forced collaboration right where you're you're collectively advancing this like humongous mega story and you have

total control over your little sliver of it and everything else you just have to make you know communicate as much as possible and make adjustments and kind of treat what everybody else is doing as a sort of a provocation or what's that like Lars von truer movie like the five obstructions. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's almost like a film school exercise where you're like, okay, we were going to do that, but they did it first, so we're going to have to do something different. And often that makes you think of something that you wouldn't have thought otherwise,

and it makes it all, you know, it makes your thing better because you're having to come up with an off-speed pitch and not do the obvious thing. And the first Spider-Verse was like that, too, right? It was like it's playing off of the canon and allowing, and that gives you the freedom to do something else. In terms of, I mean, I remember like one of the mantras for the first one was like you wanted aesthetically to feel like you were inside a comic book, right? And I know in the next one you've talked about each world, each universe kind of feeling aesthetically unique. Is that one of those kind of mantras? I'm sure there are a bunch of kind of like guideposts for how you create this next one.

Like what are the most common phrases in development of this one that you guys? are uttering to keep you on your note. A note we often say is that looks too reasonable. That is a very reasonable solution to this problem and that is reasonableness is not this movie. You know, the same thing happened on Mitchells. It's like we're not here to be reasonable. Right. We're not, we're here to be unreasonable. This is the province of maniacs and you and the brand of the first spider verse movie is like i haven't seen that before i can't believe they did that so if we run it back i think we failed if you watch that movie and go like yeah i've seen this before then it is not a success so part of the fun of going to all

these different dimensions is and is like figuring out what is a drawing an art style that feels like it's in the world of comics but feels very distinct from each other world right um or are in a Spider-Man universe that feels like this is true to a Spider-Man universe, but it doesn't look like anything else. It doesn't look like the world we saw before or the world we'll go to next. And it's really exciting because you can always feel like, I bet we can push this a little farther. And so we're going to some pretty radical places.

No one ever walked out of a movie going like, wow, those people who made that movie must have been such great compromisers and so reasonable in meetings. So much restraint. All my favorite movies were made by unreasonable people, groups of people who collaborated. We have a very, like, healthy collaboration with all of the great filmmakers we're working with,

but the goal is to make something that, like, you're not allowed to make. Yeah, big swings are nothing. That's, that's all right. It's like, feeling like, people are like, well, I can't believe they got away with this. Yeah, everything that we do. And this is no different.

Have you spent some quality time in the cage yet in the VO booth? And if not, if you have any room in there for me to eavesdrop or just need the proximity, please. The fun secret about Nick Cage is he is so fun and easy to work with and so dedicated to making it great. And you might think like, oh, you're going to get somebody who's like a wild man, but what you're getting is someone who's just wants to be creative and have a good time. It was actually just an incredible actor and people, I'm glad a lot of people like came to pig, like maybe not realizing that, oh, this is like a real, this is like, oh, remember this guy's an incredible actor.

The best, and a consummate talk show, a storyteller. The Rain Man horse anecdote is gonna go down in history. I mean, he's, he's lived a life. We'll say he lives a life. You guys are so prolific and have had such a story career that not only do you have a Wikipedia entry that's filled with projects, you have a Wikipedia entry that's devoted to

your unrealized projects. If you'll indulge me, I want to go down these and tell me what, just tell me what you feel comfortable telling me. So, for instance, on this page, 2014, Ghostbusters. Did you write anything? Did you have a pitch?

Did you have a take? How far down the road on Ghostbusters did you get? We got, oh, well, it depends. I don't know, I'm looking at Chris. I don't know what we're, I don't know we can or something. should say, but we could say that we had a friend who had an idea for a Ghostbusters thing that we thought was great, and we developed it for a little bit with Ivan, and then we put it to the side for a bit. And I don't know if it will ever come back or not, but it is fun. Is there room

in what they're doing now for your idea to still exist? My understanding is, like, for what there where Jason and Ivan are heading is just like first things first is like protect the mothership this was a little more sideways of that I think one that um I am sad who has never seen the light of day you guys are working on a greatest American hero TV show and I got worshiping greatest American hero I don't understand Rick with Rick from you I was the best so so is that is that somebody you would ever return to that feels like that that right for um exploring in some... I mean, certainly in a world where there's

a lot of superhero content. It was sort of a... It was a very unique and fun and very relatable show by the great Stephen J. Cannell who also did... The 18 Jump Street. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.

Yeah, we got to meet him. Right, before he passed away. And he was great. He had like a, like, you know, like Silver Fox, like Lions Main of beautiful. beautiful white hair. And that shows here.

And Rick had a great take on it, which was, you know, about the gentrification of Englewood. And we were really excited. He's a really lovely guy to work with. He was a huge fan of comics. But, you know, it's not everything, you know, is, you know, works out. That's why we have a lot of irons on the fire.

I know it. I know it. One section is devoted just to all. jump street permutations a lot of things in there so let's see let's run it down 23 jump street there was talk of 24 jump streets skipping by 23 jump street right yeah there was talk of um the men and black jump street crossover and then of course the female led jump street that was rumored for tiffany hadish and aquafina among others yeah 21 lady street is that your working title yeah yeah there we've had it it's

true that there was, you know, there have been some, a lot of these things have been developed. There was a, believe it or not, a men in black jump street crossover script that was very funny and very crazy that we really adored. One of my favorite ideas is that the men in black, like the black suits were like martial arts belts that you had to work your way up to black and that they were, they were, they were issued powder blues, men in black suits. And was that all the, was that both your cast? Was that, was that play with that Tommy?

The idea was, I mean, I don't know what we should or could say. But yeah, it was basically the idea was that Jonah and Channing a thing happened while they were doing their medical school adventure that got them embroiled into the world of men in black. and they ended up sort of teaming up to sort of stop an alien takeover type of thing. So it was, it was very funny. It was very crazy. Trying to sort of like manage these two franchises and not drive them both into the ground

seemed like a real challenge. What if we can ruin two different franchises at once? I mean, that's one way to go. I will say it came very close to happening. Very, very close. Well, in retrospect, I'm sure Sony is killing themselves for men in Black international and thinking maybe we should have gone that way,

but you never know. It's very easy to play Monday morning quarterback. Of course. So are any of them still being developed, or is the female-led one? Softly, softly. Soft development. That's a new phrase I've never made.

It's not not being developed. Of course, there's also a section on there, and you guys are too nice for me to, like, really dig in here, but there's a big section on solo, of course, on the unrealized projects. Sure. You barely talked about it over the years, and I get it. I understand why.

Do you talk to your therapist about what went down? Who has heard the stories of solo? Gosh, I'm in my mom's office. She's a therapist, so I did talk to her a little bit. You know, those things are, you know, we've always wanted to, you know, make projects. that are like Han, you know, a maverick. And so, you know, that's what we're always trying to do. That's what we were hoping to do with those movies.

What's funny about Star Wars is it's an independent film made outside the Hollywood system. And Han is the spirit of that kind of independence. And that's why we were always inspired to work on that with everybody. And the good news is, you know, you, they can't take away what you learned. We learned so much. We got to work with the greatest people.

We made so many friends. We put, so what an animation we call pencil miles, you know, under our belts. And it made us better filmmakers in the long run. So in a funny way, there's obviously a lot of,

there were some negative emotions associated with that. But the way I feel about it now is just like, like I feel about all these projects, which is you're just trying to become better and learn and collaborate with people. And that doesn't go away. Has it colored your love of Star Wars at all? Like, are you able to watch all these series and not have the baggage of... It's really a colored.

It's certainly also you, like, know how the sausage is made. So you were actually watching, like, oh, I know where that prop came from. I saw that prop in the prop warehouse and that sort of thing. So it's interesting in that way. And but I can... And we also splatching some of the things. we came up with on Solo sort of trickle in to the rest of the

canon. A lot of these like aliens and robots. Five eyes. Yeah. Well, there's rumor at this point. Six eyes. Yeah. I have the eyes that go like this. Each one is independently moving like a piece of amazing. I'm sure it's pretty fun. And it's very easy to root

for Ryan Johnson, for example. Like just having spent a lot of time with him and watching his movie come together. You know, it's really, it was really easy to root for Gareth, having sort of been on the ground, watching him put that together. And on and on, you know, all through the ILM group. You know, there's like a lot of great craftspeople that we love rooting for and the creature shop people that are amazing. So, you know,

so that's my access point. Is it true? Okay, the one last thing just on casting. You guys have done such amazing casting over the years. Is it true you almost convinced Christian Bell to be in a Star Wars movie? Did you come close on that? I'm not sure about almost. I can't, I can confirm it was discussed. Okay. He was interested, but it just didn't come together in the end? I actually don't know. Okay.

Okay. You know, you know, I can muse. I'd like to see him one day do something in there. I asked you guys for a comfort movie. I always find this a very telling, fascinating thing. You guys, you guys went way back to your childhoods, presumably. Tell me how you collectively came up with the movie that you did and why it's, a source of comfort to you to this day.

We chose the Muppet movie, which was a very formative movie for, I think, both of us. For me, there was like a real moment where I started thinking about the craft of filmmaking because I was like, how, I know these are puppets, how is Fawsey driving the car, and where's the puppeteer, how is he not crashing the car, Where is he looking out the window?

How can he see what's happening? Why aren't they dying? And made me like wonder how it was done and then start to think about like draw schematics of how they might have done it. At that age I was more like, how did they teach a bear to drive? This really is telling of the developmental pace

of both of you guys. But the thing of that movie is that it's like full of these amazing beautiful songs written by Paul Williams, like really, really funny. and sweet and emotional and like it's full of this joy and earnestness that like is in you know is rare these days and so you know if you want to feel something that's just about like the purity of like people coming together and go into Hollywood to make their dreams come true uh it feels

thematically like a thing that uh that is appropriate for us about like we're this crazy band of weirdos that we're gathering a bunch of other weirdos along with us and going like come on and let's make some things, and let's make some things that are putting good in the world and not, you know, trying to, like, make things worse. That is what I love about the movie, and we talk about it a lot, especially the last couple of years, is that how can we help imagine goodness, you know, that we experience a lot of people not getting along in real life? And we talked about tons on the Mitchells.

It's like, how do we, how can we show people trying to get along? Like, I don't want to watch 90 minutes of people fighting, but I could watch 90 minutes of people trying to figure out how not to fight. And one of my favorite movies of the last couple of years is Borat 2, because Borat 2 helps imagine goodness. It witnesses all of these, like, negative things that are happening in the world. Those happen, right? You've got, like, Rudy in the room, and that's just something that you can't avoid.

But they create goodness by, like, inviting people. to help this young woman. And so that movie actually created goodness. And so I love that about the Muppets. The Muppets run around, you know, in their Studebaker, inspiring people seeing them, seeing people who aren't ever seen, even though they're like a seven foot tall, like crazy looking monster, you know, and seeing what they have to offer,

like taking a guy like Gonzo and going like, We could use a guy like that and for the right way, you know. And it is kind of like putting together a film crew or a basketball team or, you know, it's like major league. It's like these parts by themselves are sort of not up to snuff, but together with the right, you know, with the right collaboration, like they make an amazing whole. Do you have a favorite relationship? Does it have to be Piggy and Kermit? Is there, like, where do you grab it to? I mean, this may be seeming too appropriate, but I think the Fazi and Kermit relationship is sort of formative.

Where they're like, they're super different, but they both love each other, and they, like, just have this, like, instant friendship. And I think it's a little bit like Sam Richardson and Ben Schwartz on the after party. They're like, like, one's a jokester and one's, like, trying to be more serious, but they love each other. and their buddies, and you can just keep watching them. And one of the guys has their head in the clouds, and the other one is, like, fuzzy. But they're both really, really sweet. Like, neither one is a jerk. They're both really, really, like, pure of heart.

Looking ahead for a moment, as I alluded to from the outset, always a full docket for you guys. There are a couple of potential projects that have been mentioned as the next directing effort. One that sounds like a big change of pace, and it sounds intriguing is the premonition. um is that something that you guys clearly are intrigued by and i don't know if you've been like thinking about doing something more dramatic for a while but is a swerve like that necessary and important and exciting to you at this stage in your career well it's not um quite so like well thought like we try not to think about like a filmography we just try to go what is something that that inspires us and that we have a we feel like we can do a great job with in the case

of the premonition, you know, Michael Lewis wrote a book with full of appealing characters, all of whom are trying to do something that hasn't been done before. They're all fighting against the system. For context, this is early days of COVID. It's three days of COVID. Even before, where like the people who wrote the pandemic plan under George W. Bush. Oh, wow. You know, like, what's the crazy about it is. It's about, you know, people who had foresight about pandemics,

but it's not, it's not like a down. It's actually really fun. That's what really intrigued us about the book. It was like, this is a really fun book full of, like, crazy scenes, and you could make a movie out of this that would actually be a joy for people to watch and not like, here's a lecture to you about why things are important. Nobody wants to do that. Right. But it is somewhat imagining what good government is, you know? Like it's like it's these. So sci-fi fantasy. So true. It's the people who

are in that might not be the front-facing people in a government, but they're the ones who are there because they care about the mission and they're willing to do anything. Amph those are work around the red tape and bureaucracy and all the other nonsense that there is, like getting in the way of actually people getting things done. And fundamentally, they don't care about being fired. They don't care about being fired. They're like punk musicians. They're like, sure.

Fire me. I don't care. This is the right thing to do. It sounds very intriguing. And where are you at with the Andy Weir project and the Gosling had been mentioned for that one? Oh, yes, Project Hail Mary. Very fun. Great book.

If you haven't read it, read it. It is a great, great read. Or get the audio book while you commute to your living room. I walk in my kitchen to my bedroom. But it's a really, really delightful book. It's really fun. And like any Andy Weir thing is full of science porn. But it's also like got a really great relationship and friendship at the heart of it.

And is one of his most emotional books. And so we've been working with Drew Goddard, who's a fantastic writer, and wrote the adaptation of The Martian. And he's done an amazing job on the script, and I think it's going to be a great movie. And how goes finally you're building out of the Spider World and Live Action TV form? We know that Silk, it sounds like, is I think, the first thing that you guys are working on. That's the word on the street.

Again, like, where does this fit in? I assume from our previous conversation, this fits in with everything is the answer. Like, you're not siloing these off. Where does it stand? And what's your... All things grow in the multiverse, my friend. The Garden of the Lord. Yeah, I mean, we were working on something related to this just this morning.

It's a big focus of our day. You literally jumped off of that Zoom to talk to you, Josh. Yes, it's true. I'm stymieing your development, I'm so sorry. Yeah, you're hurting it as we speak. No, we're working with some really great partners on that and trying to come up with something as unusual and surprising as the other spider stuff

that we're coming up with. And we, you know, the thing that's, like we've, sorry to repeat ourselves, but creating this like collective work of art that is the, you know, the, I don't know what to call it. The spider universe of Sony Marvel characters. I don't know what it is. But this collective work of art that is like imagining that all these stories fit

together, right? And giving people the space to use their imagination to connect these things is really exciting and you're just trying to like make a good contribution to it and not deny anyone the ability to imagine that these things that when we're not watching that these people are hang out totally well if only there were an audience for all this stuff people don't really care for the spider folks but maybe one day they'll still realize it's a great world i can't wait to see where that goes two more spider-vers films all these TV series, but on the front of the docket for our listeners, if you haven't checked out the after

party, what are you doing with your lives? This is great. This is joyous. This is really innovative and always entertaining. And it features just a dynamite ensemble. My Mortal Enemy, Ben Schwartz. Oh, yeah. Sam Richardson, the Lanna Glazer. The list goes on and on. And on the animation front, I mean, guys, on Netflix, Mitchell's versus the Machines, check it out. The Buzz is Real. It's a great one. congratulations, guys, as always. It's always a pleasure to catch you. I always enjoy to talk to you. A pleasure.

Back to your therapy session, Phil. Yeah, thanks. We'll check on your collato growths on our next session. That's right. We'll do. He's like, we got him separated, and he's like, he's walking around on his own now.

It's very good. You're so proud of it. But if I, like, lifted up my sweatshirt and just comped Chris and like a camera set up and like a tiny library. Oh, God. There's your. Applying image of the night.

Thank you guys. I'll see you soon, I hope. All right. Be good. Godspeed, Dash. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period. of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles, between the U.S. Army and Native American warriors to dark corners for the disaster of the

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