Happy Sad Confused - Rawson Marshall Thurber

Episode Date: October 28, 2021

In this age of reboots and remakes, Rawson Marshall Thurber is the odd man out in the best possible way, writing and directing original films influenced by the films of his youth. Rawson joins Josh this week to chat about his latest. "Red Notice", plus the Marvel comic he's dreaming of making, and the Kevin Costner flick that's his comfort movie of choice. Don't forget to check out the Happy Sad Confused patreon here! We've got exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! For all of your media headlines remember to subscribe to The Wakeup newsletter here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Square. You're not just running a restaurant, you're building something big. And Square's there for all of it. Giving your customers more ways to order, whether that's in-person with Square kiosk or online. Instant access to your sales, plus the funding you need to go even bigger. And real-time insights so you know what's working, what's not, and what's next. Because when you're doing big things, your tools should to.

Visit square.ca to get started. D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Knight's definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot? What do you mean blow up the building?

From this moment on, none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Say, Confused, Ross and Marshall Thurber, from Dodge Ball to becoming Dwayne Johnson's director of choice with Red Notice.

Hey guys, Josh Horowitz here with another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused, and a new guest on the podcast, Mr. Rosson, Marshall Thurber. He is, as I mentioned, a director that's become in. recent years, kind of the go-to guy for the biggest box office star on the planet, The Rock, aka Wayne Johnson, Central Intelligence, skyscraper, and now Red Notice, his last three films. This one also stars, by the way, Galgado and Ryan Reynolds. So you know he's operating in a ginormous movie star realm, and it's been a fascinating journey for Rossin from Dodgeball Mysteries of Pittsburgh, We're the Millers, and now, as I said, this kind of

run with with jane and getting earning the trust of the biggest star on the planet no small feet and also by the way making films that are original yes there are homages to the films that he grew up with that i grew up with in the 80s and 90s but it's original life he and that that's credit should be due mr rosson thurber for not only um creating these things and helping to create these things but also writing or co-writing these projects so um fun to talk to rosson who Evidently, as you'll hear from this conversation, speaks my language, probably speaks your language, grew up with all the right films, has all the right reference points. It's just a good dude and clearly gets along with everybody in the business if he's working with the likes of Dwayne and Gal and Ryan.

Red Notice is going to be in theaters, November 5th, but it's also going to be on Netflix for the world to see on November 12th. And this is very much a callback to the Oceans movies, to Thomas Crown Affair, to these action-adventure movies of the 80s and 90s. And if you want to see movie stars being charming and double-crossing each other and just having fun in big-scale action set pieces, this is the movie for you. I'm sure it's going to do gangbusters business through the holiday season. So happy for Rossin and all involved. And as I said, this is a fun conversation.

is a guy that grew up with the movies that I loved. We talk Bull Durham, his comfort movie. Great pick there. We talk comic book movies, his dream project, a Marvel property that he's dying to do. We'll see if that comes to fruition at some point. All in all, just an easy chat, an easy listen. I know you guys are going to dig this one. Other things to mention, let's see.

Well, there is a new Game Night episode up on the Patreon page. Very happy this one came together. You know, sometimes on Game Night, I bring together folks that know each other to have long histories together. This time I brought together three young actresses that had never met. And you never know what's going to happen with performers that have never met, have no history together. We all got along like gangbusters again, and this was so fun.

Rachel Zegler, soon to be seen in West Side Story, Kat McNamara, who, of course, you know from the Arrowverse and the stand and Shadowhunters. She's been on a previous game night episode. and Madeline Klein, known to audiences, Netflix audiences on Atter Banks. She's going to be in the new Knives Out sequel. These guys are the future. They are young and vibrant and talented and so charming, and they were just awesome on this episode of Game Night. So if you're intrigued, go over to the Patreon page, patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused.

And remember, you can watch video episodes of the podcast there, other kind of bonus features. little tour in my office the other day. We try to keep it interesting over there. Also worth mentioning video episodes of the podcast, including this episode with Rawson, Edgar Wright from last week. I want to give a shout out to Edgar because last night in Soho opens this week in theaters, and it's really a great movie. I'm always a fan of Edgar's, and this is a change of pace for him, rather. And, you know, the less you know going in, the better, but just know that it's it features thomas and mackenzie and you teller joy and matt smith and has twists and turns and it's kind of has maybe a little bit of time travelish kind of

things going on mystery horror thriller all the good stuff so that's my pick of the week for you in theaters what else can i tease oh something good coming up had a chat with christin stewart yes my old buddy christin stewart so happy for her She has delivered an amazing performance guys in Spencer. Of course, this is the film from Pablo Lorraine that tells the story of Princess Diana, not like a biopic in a traditional sense, but more of the Jackie treatment, a very specific finite period of time, very much a subjective piece of art. That's just stellar, and I know it's going to last through the award season.

and I'm not an Oscar prognosticator. I don't consider myself well-versed in that stuff necessarily. But if I were putting my money on anything, rather, I'd put it on Kristen Stewart right now. And had a chance to have a deep dive kind of conversation with her for MTV. That is coming next week. I'll put it up on my socials, Joshua Horowitz, on Twitter and Instagram.

I'm losing my ability to speak clearly. anything else to mention i don't know there's always stuff cooking oh um some sam hewin stuff cooking did i announce that officially we shot something with sam hewin yeah so that's coming very soon you're going to like it it's funny it's silly it's big it's weird um more to come on that soon okay let's get to the main event rosson marshall thurber again he is the writer director of such films as Central Intelligence, skyscraper, way back when, Dodgewall, and now the big holiday event film,

that is Red Notice, Joanne Johnson, Gal Gadot, Ryan Reynolds, doesn't get any bigger than this. Here's me and Rosson. It is my pleasure to welcome the first Rosson we've ever had on Happy Side Confused. Thanks for the time today, man. You're welcome.

Happy to be here. So did you ever come? consider now is there another rossan thurber what's with the three names like are you uh well uh the the three names uh well my father's name is marshal um and so uh and my name my actual first name is marshal but i've always gone by rosson and uh it's my great uncle on my on my father's side which is my mother likes to tell it uh he was known as being one of the niceest men the kindest men in the northeastern kingdom so it's a family name and uh yeah he got by ross and thurber a lot and then uh and then when I became a super fancy director, I thought I might as well ride the horse in the direction

that's going. Yeah, just keep adding names. Yeah, either so like a director or like a Supreme Court Justice, you know, just wanted to fit in at all the polo matches. You got to use what you got. I was saying to you before when you hopped on, it's kind of surprising we haven't crossed paths. We have some mutual friends. I was literally just talking two days ago when your name came up with Ben Schwartz. Oh, the greatest of all time. And I would say, I've known Ben for many years through a mutual friend and um yeah he's the best uh hopefully he's not listening to this uh and i was saying i think ralston's going to be on the show and he was like oh you're gonna you're gonna love him i think you guys just saw a movie together so he's like just did to kick out with oh he's the greatest

uh what was he yeah go ahead ben and i uh yeah we gosh we've known each other for a long long time uh he actually went to union college which is uh where i went to school and upstate new a tiny school in Schenectady, New York. We went in different times. I graduated in the 1900s, and he graduated after that. But yeah, I love, he and I have been trying to work together forever. I made a TV show called Ryan Hanson Solves Crimes on television. It was two seasons on YouTube, and I'm very, very proud of the show.

And I convinced, tricked, probably the better way saying it, Ben, into doing a cameo in the show with Ryan, and he just came in and nailed it. And we've been friends ever since. And actually, while I was making my last movie, Red Notice, Ben and I started to send each other Marco Polos. And I don't do that with anybody else. It's just Ben and myself. Like, I don't have, like, a group of people.

It's just me and Ben. And it was a really fun sort of video diary of the experience of making the movie. And he and I were cooking up something else. we have this idea. He's got this great idea for a half hour show and we'll see if we can convince somebody to let us go make it. So we'll get to red nose in a second, but let's start like in terms of, you know, it's the trajectory of her career like most directors, knowing Paul is a linear normal path. But like, you know, obviously Dodgeball is the film that started it all for you. When you were, when that film came, did you have an eye on the kind of movies you're making now?

I mean, you're in this very rarefied, interesting giant budget, star vehicle, original properties. I know you love like 80s, 90s stuff, but like, was this even in your head, like, where in a No, I don't think when I was first starting out, I guess I was just trying to make a movie that that I wanted to see. That's, you know, as simple as that sounds with Dodgeball. and I wrote something that I thought that made me laugh. You know, I've always been a sports fan and kind of a comedy geek and just sort of wanted to put those two things together.

And that was basically dodgeball. It was my love letter to, you know, revenge the nerds and Hoosiers, more or less, you know. And Island of Misfit Toys, a scrappy underdog story. And, you know, when you're first starting out, like you're, you know, you're mostly just trying to not get fired, which is mostly what I was doing. You know, but I'd written the script and I knew why it worked and, and, and how it worked. But no, I never really thought about where I was going after that. But I've always loved to sort of big, big crowd-pleasing entertainment pieces.

You know, as you've mentioned, I grew up on 80s and 90s cinema, you know, or movies. It's probably better way saying it. And, you know, I'm born in San Francisco, raised in Northern California. And so the Spielberg-Lucis, you know, world is kind of, you know, that's my world. I'm not alone in that. And so I've always liked that kind of storytelling. And so, and that's kind of what's guided me. I think you can't, if you're writing, especially writing and directing, I don't think you

can try to be something that you're not. Right. And it took me a little while to kind of accept that and accept that. that the stuff that I like to make, you know, is sort of crowd-pleasing entertainment. And their bread notice is certainly unabashedly that we can talk about some other time. Well, no, it's interesting, too. I mean, you do, several aspects of your career in the kind of movies you're making set you apart from the pack.

Like, you write a lot of your own stuff, which is not a lot of the blockbuster records don't necessarily get that writing credit. So that speaks volumes, and I'm sure it's something you take a lot of pride. And as much as these films are inspired by films of your youth, they're original, the original IP, which, I mean, these are, again, two things that maybe you don't get enough credit for. But like, to look at the stuff that you've been doing with, with Dwayne in the last few years, you know, that is unusual. Talk to me a little bit about how important those two aspects are to you to the kind of work you're doing that. I'll first of I just want to say thank you for even asking that question. noticing that yeah you know when you talk about original ideas um with budgets of you know over

a hundred million dollars um written by one one person and directed by that same person the list of of people who do that is very very very small um and you know i like yeah very very very, very small. Like, I'm not sure there are three people on that list. I'm not kidding. Like, I think that's it. So, uh, and most of them are like eight, eight writers on generally any blockbuster. For sure, for sure. But so like if you look at like, you know, if you look at like writer director at that with original IP over $100 million, it's, you know, it's sincerely, I think it's like three or five. So, you know, at least I'm in the top five. Hey. On the list. But, But yeah, it's, I've always, I've always, I take the writing very seriously.

It's something that, you know, I could always write from a pretty young age. And I guess I never really separated, separated the two. It was never, it never occurred to me to write, to write a story and hand it to somebody else. Or to take somebody else's story and try to direct it. I just, I think I would be lost. I don't, I think I wouldn't know where to put the camera if you handed me a script that I didn't write. And, and so the process for me, and I'm not alone in this for writer directors, I start directing from Fade In, from that first line. And I'm learning what the movie is, what the story is, what the tone is, as I'm writing those scenes and sequences and pages and scripts.

And so by the time I'm shooting it, I've directed it in my head so many times that it's, it's oftentimes it's about trying to communicate that as much as best you can to the people are helping you and try it and trying to capture that. And sometimes you can't get it. And sometimes you do. And oftentimes it becomes this other thing. Once you bring in actors who have a different perspective or bring something you hadn't thought of, And it's, yeah, it's really, it can be really fun. It can also be really challenging because sometimes you're like, oh, this is not anything like I thought it would be.

And it can be very frustrating. And oftentimes it's better than what you filmed. If you're a little patient with it. The last, I think it's the last three films have been collaborations with Joanne Johnson. Yeah. Biggest movie star human being on the planet physically. By weight. By weight.

by every measurement. Yeah, exactly. You know, he's another one. I've had a great pleasure of knowing over many years. I feel like I have the distinction of having the one project with Jwayne that never got off the ground. He was producing a talk show for me. Oh, no.

What happened? What'd you do wrong, Josh? What'd you do wrong? I know. How do I drive a Juan Johnson project into the ground? No, but he's the best. He's the best. I love him.

I know what he demands of others. And I know, you know, hardest workers in the room, you know, never giving up, turning over an idea in every way possible, demanding excellence. Talk to me about, like, is that something? Like, how did you guys click in the first place? Did it happen very quickly on central intelligence or what happened? Yeah, it was. It was really, it was, I mean, you could ask him, but my, you know, what he thinks,

because he's probably that fucking guy. But nobody, we were, we became fast friends, really from central intelligence. It was not, Central Intelligence was not originally written for Dwayne or anybody like Dwayne. The original script was written by Ike Baranholtz and David Stassen, who were incredibly talented, funny guys. And it was, I think, their first spec that they wrote. It was a great script. And, but the original joke was that it was about this guy who was sort of a loser in high school. And, and then came back to the reunion was actually, you know, a CIA spy. assassin and he was sort of, you know, uh, heavyset dude, right? So it was sort of fat Jason

born was the joke, right? Like you would never expect this guy to be great. And that was a good joke and all that. But when Dwayne, I think Dwayne saw my movie before that, he saw a movie I made a call Rick Miller's and he thought it was super funny and, um, and he wanted to do action comedy. And, uh, and he liked this idea. And then for me, when, when I thought, oh my God, this, this is so much better, right? Like the idea that a kid who was picked on in bull, in high school, you know, would transform himself into, into the rock, right, into this physical armor. But so he looks totally different. But on the inside, he has the same insecurities he always had. And it was just such a better way in. And so it started from there. But as it relates to

Duane, you know, the thing that I love most about him is that, and you know this from working with him is that he takes the work very seriously. But he doesn't take himself seriously. And so he's the first guy to laugh at himself. He's the first guy to make fun of himself. And that just opens up, you know, opens it up for everybody else. So three movies in a row. And, you know, it's been fun every single time. And it's been great to kind of expand the palette every single time. And yeah, it's just, it's been a pleasure. I think I'm all set, though. I think I'm all done with Duane. I think he's done with me. We're never going to work. Well, he's going to be emperor of the known universe soon. So he's not going to have time to make. He's skipping president and

just becoming the ground. Yeah. No, no. I mean, I'll, you know, look, I'd watch that guy's car if he asked me to. I'm a big fan. Big fan. So I'm glad you say all of them have been fun productions because Red Notice, which is this just like glorious kind of like star vehicle. And I'm a sucker for like just like movie stars being movie stars, right? And it's like, especially like nowadays where like we keep talking about like, oh, it's not about movie stars anymore. It's about and the concepts are great. And this is a great concept. Don't get me wrong. But like there's something about seeing three ginormous movie stars share a screen. You've got Ryan Reynolds, you've got Galgado and Dwayne, but you're making this in some very interesting circumstances, and this is obviously

not a new conversation. A lot of folks had to deal with this, but you're making this global spectacle in the middle of like the hell year. Talk to me about how malleable you, like how did you, in a nutshell, for three hours, how did you make this movie in these? Yeah. I just, thanks. Another smart question. No shock there. It was really, really, really hard. So I'd like to slightly modify my previous statement about all three being fun. This last one was incredibly hard for everybody. And, and, you know, about halfway through shooting, almost smack dab in the middle of our principal photography. That's when the pandemic hit, and we had to, we shut down for six months. We were about two weeks away from heading to Italy

to shoot a car chase. We scouted it. We'd pre-vised it. We'd had every, you know, we were ready to shoot, a big sort of fun car chase that kicks off the movie. And the plug got pulled. We couldn't go anywhere. And so we retrenched and rethought. And then when we came back, we ended up not leaving Atlanta. We shot this entire movie on stage or on the back lot at Atlanta Metro Studios, except for, I think, three days after a splinter unit that I went to Rome to get a couple shots that I just couldn't live without. It was just a skeleton crew there. But it was incredibly challenging. And then when we came back, we were in an NBA bubble. We were quarantined. And so for me, like, and then I, so all the crew was staying at one of two hotels, but I had to stay in a separate space. Because as, as the director,

if I were to be, if I were to be in contact with somebody who tested positive, I would have to be pulled from the set and we couldn't risk that. So I was essentially in self-isolation for 90 days away from my wife and three beautiful children in Atlanta. I would get up and drive myself to set Monday through Saturday. We shot six-day weeks. Drive home, you know, by myself, be at home, get up and go back again. And this was, it was, it was, no physical contact. It was, and, and at the same time there was an election that was happening, the 2020 election, which was, you know, as you know, really intense. You know, so no physical contact, isolation, you know, the fate of the free world at stake in the 2020 election. Your biggest film ever. My biggest film ever, three giant

movie stars, 100 plus million dollar film that I thought up in my own brain pan, you know, and And yeah, it was the closest. Like, I'm not somebody who struggles with or suffers from anxiety. Thank goodness. I just never, never had that challenge. But this was as close as I've never gotten. It was really tough, really, really tough. Yeah, well, you wouldn't be human if you didn't feel any of that.

It's amazing, given, I think you described that the film turned out how it did, and it's not evident on the screen that you shot this in the way you did it. Oh, that's great to hear. Can we backtrack a little bit just in terms of how this one came to be? Because I remember this is one of those properties that like, again, original concept, clearly inspired, I would guess, from, I don't know, Thomas Crown Affair, oceans, movies, all these kinds of different things, right? Do you go out and like, do you go on the road with Dwayne and pitch this to all the studios?

And how does that go? I mean, my sense is like this was the hot property for when you put it out on the market, right? It was. It was. So we were shooting a skyscraper, which was my movie before this one, which was an idea that I came up with that I pitched Duane while we were post on Central Intelligence. And then while we were prepping skyscraper, I started noodling with this idea for Red Notice. And part of that, I think, is any sort of writer-director will tell you, you're always tinkering with something. You're always, and it's usually like because the thing that you're working on, you know, all you're dealing with are problems on the thing that you're trying to make and the one that you're kind of mess around it doesn't have any problems yet it's always more interesting the one that you're you know so you're you know you just can't quite leave it alone so i was working on on on this idea for for red notice and then um and then i talked to beau flynn our producer of both of skyscraper and red notice and i said i think i've got this idea and i sort of half pitched him and he's like

that's great i'm in like let's let's go when do we tell de wayne and i'm like no no no i don't have it yet We're still making, I, like, don't have, and he's like, well, I'll tell them, let's tell him tomorrow. I'm like, it's not ready. And so eventually, you know, in the fall, I think, of 17, I want to say, I went out with Dwayne and pitched him. We went out to dinner, and I pitched him the idea for Red Notice. And we're all at this fancy steakhouse, and my steak is ice cold because I'm pitching him a little hard out, and Duane's like eating a steak.

And then I get to a certain part in the movie and the pitch. and he breaks into a smile and he like stands up, he throws his napkin down and he goes, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in. And then I just got really drunk after that. That's a good moment. That's a nice moment. Yeah, it's a great moment.

So then we went and pitched it in the, I don't know, February of 2018. So I was in post on skyscraper, went and took it around town. And so what happens is I go to all the buyers with Beaufort and my producing partner on the on the on the on the movie uh he's got you know his his company and i've got mine and we went out and and uh we go to all the buyers and i basically give an hour pitch 45 minute pitch which is you know one man show more or less um and uh and so then we went around and we

think we we we pitched at 10 places and then and then we had 10 offers we had 10 uh it was just dwayne attached the gal was not attached although i i would speak about her in my pitch, you know, and I would speak about Ryan in my pitch. Those are the people that I wanted. I've got a little book somewhere, you know, with their names written in and I can, I'll show you one of these. But anyway, so I pitch it and then it became a bit of a knife fight for the for the idea. And we ended up selling it in a competitive situation. And it's my understanding that we set the record for the highest pitch sale in the history of Hollywood, I think. Amazing. So get me, yeah, more than cool. Give me some context because,

you know, we alluded to the beginning of the career. Like dodge ball is a hell of a start, right? Like it becomes pretty, as I recall, maybe you have different memories, like kind of an instant cult classic, instantly kind of quotable film. Yeah, which maybe you appreciate even more as the years go by. I do. But, and then you, and then you follow it with a film Mysteries of Pittsburgh, which has to be like, you know, a blow. It doesn't, it doesn't turn out the way, right? No, brutal. Like, were you in that, that, like, fabled director jail after that? Like, what happened in that, in that period?

Yeah, that was so, such, so hard. So I finished Dodgeball and, and I wanted to do something totally different. And I think, and this goes back to me earlier saying, you know, you just need to, I've learned to be, to be okay with the things that I, that I love and that I'm good at. And so I love this little book called The Mysteries of Pittsburgh, which is Michael Chabon's first novel, Michael Chabon, Pulitzer Prize winner, the coolest, by the way, if you ever get a chance to talk to him. And so I convinced Michael to option the novel to me and I adapted it on spec and we went

and made it. It's a little six and a half million dollar movie. And I, and the movie, I didn't do enough job, you know, the movie is not good enough and that's on me. And it was gutting. I poured my heart and soul into it. And we took it to Sundance and I mean, there's, there's nothing more painful than to work as hard as you work on these things and to have the movie not work and to have the audience just kind of go, like that. When did you know? Do you know like before it even screens or did you know like that premiere at Sundance or like no, I mean, I think that's not. No, no, no, no. I mean, you learn so

much from your from your from your you know disappointments or misses right um i think that i i i think i i was worried pretty early um in i think in especially once we got into the into the edit uh and i was like oh gosh i i i didn't i didn't do i didn't do this right i didn't i was not good enough i was not a good enough director um uh i think the script that i wrote was pretty was was good enough but i don't think i directed it well enough uh And that was really hard for me. And then, but you hold out hope, right? You hold out hope that maybe it's not quite as ungood or bad as you fear.

And so you take it, maybe the audience will see it and see what I was going for and look at me, you know, and it didn't work that way. Although there was this one moment at Sundance after we, you know, premiered at Eccles, you know, 1,500 people. and this is a giant theater, right? And did, you know, I was pretty sunk at that point. And I was walking out and there was this one, like a ticket taker or something. And she said, hey, are you, are you, are you, Ross and Thurber? And I said, yeah, she said, you did the Mysteries of Pittsburgh? And I said, yeah.

And she said, I loved your movie. And I was just like, oh, my God, thank you. I just wanted to hug this person. I wish I knew her name. because you're just so devastated. So that was really hard. And then really, really hard. And then at the same time, it was about 2008,

the writer's strike in town happened. And so everything shut down. But right before it shook down, I took, I think, four writing jobs like stacked together to try to keep the lights on. And so the strike ended. And then I spent the next 18 months writing out of out of that hole um of just writing and i'm just writing for for hire not writing for

me um and and and uh and so then it's 20 i don't know 2011 basically end of 2010 and then and then when you look at at my career at that point i had a film that came out in 2004 and nothing uh really because mysteries doesn't doesn't work and was in four screen and it's 2010 and a half and your your ice cold, right? But back to Director Jail, the good news about being a writer-director is you don't really end up in Director Jail because you can write your own get-out-of-jail card, right? Director Jail happens when you are a director who needs a script and you need somebody to hire you to direct a script. And because I'm able to write my own ticket, I'm never really in danger of that. I suppose if I am unable to write a screenplay, I'd be in trouble, or I could be.

So anyways, that was that. And then New Line called me up and they said, look, we've got this thing called We're the Millers that we want to make. And I read the script and I thought the premise is really good. And a lot of the jokes were really funny. And I kind of knew what I wanted to do with it. And I really, really needed to make a movie. And so I said, look, this tone, this tone, this sort of R-rated tone is not really my thing, but I am going to fashion a leasily effective comedy widget out of this. And that's what I did to get back in the game. And you cast the hell out of it. I mean, with some known quantities, but also, I mean, that's, I think, when most of us discovered the genius that is Will Poulter, who's going to

now be like a giant, enormous Marvel superhero. So excited for everything he does. He's the greatest, humblest, like, oh, my God. the best and he um because i knew him from son of rambo but he was like 10 when he did it and he and he came in and he was like you know sprouted oh he was like six four when he walked in the door but i didn't know that that he was british like he came in and he just he had a perfect american accent and then he then you know we we ended the audition he's like right thanks and i was like oh my god what like you're british and he's like yeah yeah yeah and boy was he just he was just the greatest he's so such such a sweetheart and just stole that whole movie

There's one piece of IMDB trivia that stuck out for me that I'd love to be clarification on. Sure. Was Adam Driver cast Scotty P. in that film? No. No. Adam Driver, by the way, he put himself on tape for Scottie P. And he was amazing. He was amazing. And I was like, well, we have to cast this guy. I mean, you've seen him on set. I mean, you've seen, you know, he's Adam Driver, bow down. but um but you know he's so funny on saturday aunt live oh my god yeah he's obviously an incredibly

talented serious dude but he's also very very very very funny um and uh and his read for scotty p was just fantastic and i'm like well yeah we're casting that guy and then uh and then the dates couldn't work with uh with girls i think like we couldn't get him um and then the uh shan anders and john morris the um the original writers who was super talented dudes they're like you know you should look at this guy mark young he's really really interesting and then i was like you know as soon as i as soon as i saw mark's read i was like oh well you know that's a great choice and he was fantastic it worked out fantastic but yeah i do want to be in the alternate universe where right could you imagine josh could you imagine what a

do you still have the tape you can monetize this ral i would never i would never i could never uh i'm sure i could find it but i just would never do it no yeah you don't want Kylo Ren coming after you. No, no, sir. It is kind of shocking, given your resume and your sensibilities, given the world we live in, that we haven't seen the Ross and Michael Thurber comic book movie, just being realistic. Like, I mean, it's just what we all talk about and what's being made.

And I know there was talk of Ant Man, and if you believe the reports that you might have even turned down Ant Man after Edgar Wright left it. Can you clarify what went down? Yeah, that's, gosh, it's so funny how these things happen. No, yeah, I never turned it down and they never officially offered it to me. I think the way these things work is everybody knows what everybody's answer is going to be before anything is officially said. So there's never a, there's never a version where if there's no version of Kevin Feigy offering a movie to somebody and not already knowing what the answer is going to be. just doesn't work same with the casting like they go in they sign they're like i'm going to do

five movies whether if i get this part or not like it's yeah exactly exactly so so you know i had conversations about and um and uh and uh yeah i think um i'm a big fan of the of the marvel stuff i haven't been able to keep up on all of it just because i've been making this movie but um yeah i love what they're doing there is one particular combination in the marvel universe that i would push a small child off of a bridge to get a chance at. But, you know, is this the, I think I, you mentioned it some, like, it was Hulk and Wolverine. Was that the, the combo? Yes, that's exactly right.

How do you know that? When did I ever mention that before? You mentioned it. I do my research. A little Google, it goes a long way. You clearly do. This is, this is getting spooky. Yeah, yeah, I thought, I thought the, the, the, the Hulkwring, Lindelof run was,

was, was, was pretty, pretty fantastic. So, do you must have put a feeler out, even just to say, like, no you're ready when they're ready basically is what you're telling me they they have they have they can tweet me no uh they that's how these things happen yeah yeah exactly if they yeah if they're interested in doing that uh they have my number what what is just to geek out for a second what is intriguing about that combo like what's oh well i mean there's i mean obviously i don't know how you want to go but like anybody who knows those characters know knows that wolverine was introduced in Hulk, they're inextricably linked, right?

So you have this unstoppable force and a movable object, and I think that in and of itself is really fascinating, but they both, they both suffer from the same curse, essentially, and they handle it in totally different ways. And I think that is, that in and of itself is incredibly juicy and, you know, and on and on from there. But certainly I thought, I thought, I thought, I thought, I thought, I thought, Linda Loss had some really, really kind of clever, clever touches to that, to that old saw. If you have a chance to read it, you should.

Have you daydreamed you were casting for Wolverine? Obviously, Hughes. Yeah, I mean, well, he, he sort of set the bar. You know, I have not let myself do that. And I think, yeah, I mean, there's certainly every once in a while, you go, oh, that's, but I try not to just because, I don't know, you end up, you end up disappointed, you know, typically. No, I've not yet, but I'll let you know, Josh. If my phone rings, I'll send you a text.

Please do. You know, I asked you for a comfort movie. I've been reveling in comfort movies ever since the world ended in 2020 and we're hanging by a thread. We need comfort in our lives. You chose a great one. I haven't seen it in a number of years.

Maybe the first sports movie on the list. Tell us your comfort movie and why you selected it, Rosson. Well, I picked, I picked Bulger. I picked Bull Durham, written and directed by Ron Shelton. That was his first film. It is my all-time favorite movie. I'm not saying it's the best movie all-time. I think there are some others that would have a claim to that,

but it's my personal favorite film. And I guess to me, back to what I was saying about Dodgeball, I've always loved sports, and I've always loved sports movies. And I think that Bull Durham blends comedy and heart and romance in such a wonderful way. It's got so much depth. It's got great characters, life lessons. I think Kevin Costner has never been better

than he's been S. Crash Davis, Susan Sarandon, never more beautiful. Tim Robbins is Ebby Calvin, Nebuchalooch, just absolutely delivering just a free and silly performance. And I think I guess to me, like, I don't know, I guess I just always identified with Crash Davis more than I'd be Calvin of just like, you know, someone who has all the, you know, all the world weary wisdom and maybe not as much talent as the next guy, but he works hard, you know, and I guess I identify with that. Do you remember when you first saw it? Because, I mean, we're roughly the same age. And I remember it being, it's kind of kind of like an adult sexy movie for like our age. Yeah.

I was like 12 or 13. You probably were about the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it's so funny you bring that up. Yeah. So for me, it was the first R-rated movie, well, second R-rated movie that I saw in the theater.

And it was a big deal. And I had to talk to my mom. And I had to, you know, and she said, look, now there's some, you know, there's some real stuff. You know, are you ready? And I'm like, yeah. And I went. And so there was a little bit of. a little bit of that just sort of personal life nostalgia attached to the movie.

But it was a really special moment for me. And in my family growing up, movies had real importance and significance. And we would, you know, I mean, some of my earliest memories, like I remember being in the lobby in this, you know, one screen movie theater in Avon, North Carolina during the summer when my mom took me to see Raiders of the Lost Ark. and she said now look this movie is incredibly exciting and you're not going to want to go to the bathroom so you better go to the bathroom now and I was like oh my eyes are biggest saucers and I the point of the story is I peed I went and peed and then I went to the movie but but these movies were really important and whenever we would finish um you know my just watching a movie we driving home my mom always asked me like you know what were what were your favorite moments or scenes and and I think from an early age I started to think of movies as as moments or scenes and once you start thinking of them that way then and that they're ordered right that somebody had to create that order or create those scenes and then you start to think about

oh somebody wrote that you know um so so anyways back to bolderum that's that's why and when i went to usc uh for film school uh we had to write um we had to uh there was a special project where we had to we had to add a film to to the sort of USC canon right like you had to pick something that matter to you go interview somebody who worked on it and you you put that report in this big kind of you know a repository of information and and I picked Bull Durham and I wrote a letter to Ron Shelton who is prepping play it to the bone and I wrote a letter to him and he was in prep and and and you know I quoted the movie and all kinds of stuff and That, you know, it was embarrassing at this point.

But, but anyways, Ron responded, and he invited me to interview him for, you know, half hour. And so I went to his production office. I interviewed him. I asked a bunch of dumb questions. And he invited me to set and actually, I played to the film as the first films that I'd ever step foot on. So, big, it all, it's all important. Yeah, no. And he has such a distinctive voice, an authentic voice as a filmmaker.

You know, for those I don't know, like, he spent time in the minors, inspired. apart, but from his own experiences. And it has such a unique kind of human tone to the whole thing. And there are, you talk about collection of moments. Is there a scene that jumps out as the one that really sticks with you, that's your favorite scene in the film?

Oh, yeah, yes, of course. Well, I mean, everybody talks about the bus ride where we're crashed to Jezebby, his cliches, you know, good Lord Will and things will work out. You gotta, you know, play one game at a time and all that. And I mean, it's just, it's a treasure trove. But I would say there's basically two scenes in Voldem for me that really mean the world to me. And the first is when Crash Davis, he gets, he misses the tag at home plate.

And the umpire tells him that the runner was safe when in fact, Crash believes he tagged him out. And Crash Davis ends up calling the umpire a word. you can't you can't call them and gets thrown out of the game but i thought that entire sequence uh in performance in writing was so beautiful and so free and so vibrant and so funny uh that it's just i just i can't help but smile every time but the one that really sticks with me is when is when ebbie calvin gets gets called up to the majors and he goes to find crash davis in sandy grimes is a pool hall in his bar to tell him I got I got called up and crash has had a little too much to drink and he and he's a little bit better about it and he tells Ebby Calvin that

you know your arm's worth a million bucks and all my limbs put together aren't worth seven cents a pound and and that moment of crash seeing that that he was never going to make it You know, he had 21 days in the majors once, but it didn't matter how much he loved it. It didn't matter how smart he was. It didn't matter how hard he worked. He just didn't. His right arm was not a thunderbolt. And to see him have to accept that was a, I just always find it really powerful and beautifully performed by both people, by everybody.

Exactly. It's a great matter of performance, direction, writing, etc. Yeah, it's all there. Good, great pick. And you said, and they're all, like, at the height of their powers. Like, yeah, it's like, Kossner's great. Sarandon's the best. Oh, how good is Kossner?

So good. I mean, and you also believe him as an athlete. You like, he's like, you know, he's a great swing. And he's a great. I know. He can throw the ball. He can swing a bat. That's great.

So I know always cruel to look forward, especially as you just probably put the finishing touches on your ginormous movie. But there's a lot of intrigue and excitement about the division, which has been around for a while. People have been talking about adapting the same. for a while. You're the man for the job now, and you've got some two, correct me if I'm wrong, you still have Jake Gyllenhaal and Jessica Chastain, two of the best and the best in those attached. Yeah, unless you know something I don't know. I was talking to Jake about

an hour ago and he didn't tell me anything. So yeah, yeah, no, Jake and Jessica and we're developing the script. It's in really good shape. We're plugging away. We're hoping, hoping, hoping to start shooting next year. And it's the movie I want to make. It's a movie I want to make next. I love the game deeply, deeply, deeply. I play with three buddies in mine. We play every Tuesday night, like the bowling league.

And so I really enjoy the game. And I think what I love most about the division is I think that it's, do you know the game at all? Have you played it at all? I don't actually, no. I did some research on reading about it. No, it's really, okay, so it asks, I think, at its core, the game and the, and hopefully the movie that we make asks a very, very simple question, which as, you know, what do we owe each other in a society? What does one person owe to another in a society? And when the chips are down, how do you choose to live your life?

are you a selfish person or are you a selfless person? And I think those questions are key to how the division works. And I'm hopeful that we're going to make an incredibly entertaining, sort of inspiring, uplifting, fuck yeah, version of a movie. And clearly more resonant than ever, given what I know about the premise of the film. Like it takes on some really interesting time. Yeah, you're right. The pandemic part of it is really interesting, right?

because the division is based, you know, the inciting incident, as they say, is a really lethal pandemic that causes a lot of trouble. And I'm hopeful that, you know, that, that the movie itself is not going to focus necessarily on the pandemic because the game doesn't. It's all post-pandemic. It's all aftermath. It's, okay, so now what, right? Now we have a, you know, it's a mid-crisis movie essentially, right? So it's not post-apocalyptic, but it's, there's an opportunity. You have these division agents and their job is to save what remains. Their job is to rescue society from the brink. And it's up to us whether or not that's going to happen.

And that's super exciting, I think. Well, you've got two of the best in the business again with Jay and John. They're so good. So good. They're so good. Is there speaking of great actors? I mean, you know, you've been spoiled. We've had an embarrassment of riches in Red Notice alone, three of the biggest stars on the planet.

Jake and Chastain coming up. Like, is there an actor that you're dying to utilize in a film? Yeah, I mean, there's one one bucket list actor that I've always wanted to work with. That's Tom Cruise. I'm a huge, huge Tom Cruise fan my whole life. And I haven't been able to quite figure out what that thing would be just yet. But that would be number one for me. McCorrie's hogging all the mission impossible.

He's super talented. I know, Chris. Rotate every year. What happens to that? Somebody else in chance. I know. I know. Well, McCory, that guy is, that guy is about as good as they, good as they come. So I understand what Tom's hitched his, hitched his wagon to Chris, a smart guy.

That makes sense as a collaboration. That's, if I was going to guess one, that totally, I'm saying for you. I mean, that's, that's, that would be awesome. That would be very cool. Thank you. Well, yeah, I would, I'd jump at the chance. Congratulations, man. Ben said it right. He said I would enjoy geeking out with you.

You're so easy to talk to. We obviously share a lot of the same sensibilities. And I'm so thrilled. you were able to execute this film as well as you did given the circumstances and insane I know it's getting

people are going to be able to see it on the big screen as well as Netflix too which must be able to watch to you yeah I was very very happy when Netflix said they were going to put it in theaters for you know the week before it came onto the platform so it comes out in

select sort of cinema arc I think theaters on November 5th and then it comes on to the Netflix platform proper on November 12th. I'm really proud of the movie. It's the best movie I've ever made and I hope you like it. I'm sure they will, man. Congrats on everything. And yeah, here's many more conversations, hopefully. I hope so, man. It was a real pleasure, Josh. And I have to say, you do your research and it's really, really a joy to talk to somebody who actually puts the work in. So thank you.

And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't personally do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the Kid and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batman, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast.

We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S. Army and Native American warriors, to dark corners for the disaster of the Donner Party, and shining summits for achievements like the Transcontinental Railroad. We'll go back to the earliest days of explorers and mountain men, and head up through notorious Pinkerton agents and gunmen like Tom Horn. Every episode features narrative writing and cinematic music, and there are hundreds of episodes available to binge.

I'm Chris Wimmer. Find Legends of the Old West, wherever you're listening now.