Happy Sad Confused - Richard Jenkins

Episode Date: December 4, 2017

It's hard to pick a favorite Richard Jenkins performance simply because he's always excellent. Do you love him as the suffering father in "Step-Brothers"? Or maybe for his Oscar nominated performance as a solitary widower who takes up the drums in "The Visitor"? Or perhaps his nearly silent turn as an aging caretaker of a vampire in "Let Me In"? And how could we forget his ATF agent in "Flirting With Disaster"?!? In other words, the man has range like few others in his profession.  In this visit to "Happy Sad Confused", Jenkins talks to Josh about his approach to acting, why he had given up on a film career decades ago, how he's managed to carve out a prosperous career while living in Rhode Island, and of course, his latest role in Guillermo Del Toro's magical new film, "The Shape of Water". Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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to you by the First Amendment. Moving like a river in my soul. Learn more at freedomforum.org. Today on HappySeg Confused, Richard Jenkins on The Shape of Water, Stepbrothers, and being the consummate character actor. Hey guys, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy Say I Confused, my podcast where I talk to cool actors, cool directors and cool

sidekicks like Sammy K-E-W-L K-E-W-L K-E-W-A-O-A-CTERs Richard Jenkins loves being considered the cool actor I'm going to have to vet with you

in the future the things I plan on saying the problem is I don't plan on saying anything as is evidenced by my shitty intros hence your participation oh I love when I'm not on them and I listen to them

it makes me laugh so hard you're really upsetting yeah Sammi sort texting me the other day when she was clearly listening to one where I had to ride solo and I'm insecure about it because it feels like... You're just talking to yourself. I am talking to myself. Yeah, but like in call and response fashion.

It's a hard thing to do. It's fascinating. It really is. Like this is what happens in there. And by in there you mean in the brain? In the brain, yes. Yeah, it's dark and cold in there. You're doing great.

Okay, great. Oh, let's talk about this. I don't do that. No, it's so good. All right. It's so good. Let's talk about someone that is so, so good and super cool. Richard Jenkins.

I know who you're talking about. Richard Jenkins is the guest on this episode of Happy Say I Confused. His new film is The Shape of Water, which is directed by the great Giermo the Toro. I got a chance to talk to Garamo, actually, if you haven't listened to that podcast, we taped it way back when the film debuted at the Toronto Film Festival. So just go back into the archives a bit if you want to hear from Guillermo. Is this the movie you were seeing when you sat next to somebody special? This was my special Benedict Cumberbatch time. Had Benedict shared his offer to use some popcorn?

It was a magical experience. It was a really special time to be alive. So I still need to see the movie again because it's the greatest movie ever made because I shared popcorn with Benedict Cumberbatch. You didn't even see the movie. You were just like, does Benedict like it? I was just staring at him the entire time. Is he eating the popcorn?

Popcorn, you're just holding it as a prop. Should I ask for more popcorn? Yeah. What's the etiquette? And you like lick your hands and take some of his popcorn. I got my own bag, just for the record. He gave me a whole bag of popcorn. Why did he have?

Because when you're Benedict Cumberbatch, people just give you like six bags of popcorn. Oh, so it was a charity. Hey. If it wasn't like you're my friend, here's some, he's like, why the fuck am I going to hold two bags of popcorn? How many bags of popcorn has Benedict Cumberbatch ever given you? You don't want to know. Anyway, the movie that we saw.

while we'd popcorn together was the shape of water, which comes from the wonderfully deranged and magical mind that is Gierma L'Otooro. Gerem was the best. And this one has garnered fantastic reviews. The brief summary of it is basically it's kind of a beauty in the beast's tale. Sally Hawkins plays a woman who kind of,

it takes place, I think, early 60s, I want to say. and she falls in love with kind of like a fish man, a mythical kind of creature played by the remarkable Doug Jones. He tug is the guy that's been in like virtually all of Guillermo's movies from Pan's Labyrinth to Hellboy and always kind of inhabits those fantastical creatures. And it's a story really about outsiders and about love. And it's kind of a mix of all kind of the genres that Giermo's toyed with over the years. There's, you know, kind of like there's magic and fantasy involved.

and there's a bit of a musical vibe to it. It's gorgeous to look at, and it's filled with fantastic performances. Beyond just Sally and Doug, Richard Jenkins, plays Sally's kind of best friend. Who else is in it? Michael Shannon's in it. Michael Shannon.

Michael Stoolbarg, who's coming up on the podcast very soon, is in it as well. And, yeah, it's a solid, great piece of work. work. I'm excited to check it out again very soon. And I was delighted to have Richard Jenkins on the show who, of course, you probably know from, it could be any number of things. He was Oscar nominated for his role in The Visitor. You remember that one? I was glad you enjoyed that one. He was so good in that movie. He was great in that one. We talked about that in this one. That was his, I think it was his first leading role, maybe his only leading role. He's one of those guys that just is always rises to whatever the occasion is. he can fit any number of different parts. He's someone who like, if you see it, you're like, oh my God, he was in this, you look at his IMDB page, you're like. Flooding with disaster.

I don't know if you remember him in that one. He and Josh Brolin were kind of a couple in that one. Really fantastic in that. And of course, stepbrothers kind of also kind of revitalized his career, or at least introduced him to a new audience. And this one may end up getting him an Oscar nomination. He's getting great, great reviews for this. So really thrilled to talk to a guy that also, as you'll hear in the podcast, just seems

like the most decent human beings. Like he's been married for like 50 years. They love that. They've always lived in Rhode Island. He lives in Rhode Island? He took the train from Rhode Island for this. I mean, he honestly, like, I fell in love with him. Did you, like, feel like you wanted to, like, do more since he came all the way from Rhode Island?

To be fair, he did, did us. And then I think he had a Q&A right after the podcast. So he was double duty, but still. You want some of the stale candy on my dad's, too? I always offer the stale candy. So, um, so, yeah. that's Richard Jenkins. Let's actually go right to the Richard Jenkins podcast conversation because it's a long career and well worth talking about. He's one of those guys that probably hasn't

done a lot of these kind of long form interviews. And damn, but he deserves time and respect. Sure does. He's one of the best out there. So go check out the shape of water. I believe it's out in New York and perhaps L.A. right now and spreading around the country very, very soon. It's a special one. Enjoy this conversation with Richard Jenkins. Oh, and Sammy, what's I remind people. Hey, I think it'd be cool if they would rate, review, and subscribe. I almost forgot. And you weren't helping.

I know. I completely forgot. I completely forgot. Guys, but now that you said it is all I care about. We're being serious. Just go to iTunes. Do me a solid. Do it right now.

Like right now. What are you doing? What are you doing, dude? Yeah, pull over. Exactly. Yeah. It honestly would mean a lot. Just go to iTunes, review, rate, and subscribe.

Spread the good word of happy, sad, confused. then come back and enjoy this conversation with Richard Jenkins. Yeah, press pause and then come back and press play. And by the way, guys, not to tutor own horn, but we're cranking them out right now. You've got two more podcasts coming up this week with two other... If you lose your voice. Me? Then that's what you're here for.

You're subbing in. The interviews, you could do a good Josh Horowitz imitation. Yeah. All right. Here's Richard Jenkins. I'm very pleased to be joined by Mr. Richard Jenkins. As you can hear from the squeaks, we're getting adjusted in our chairs on a rainy night in New York. We're not outside, though.

No. Small favors. We at least have some, yes, some shelter here. Thanks for making the trip. I know you're starting to spread the good word again on this great film and this great performance, The Shape of Water, which I'm such a fan of. Oh, thank you. I first saw it in Toronto.

And I would imagine have you had a bit of a break from the press? Are you kind of like gearing up again? Well, from Toronto, we went to London. I was just done in Savannah. Oh, a festival down there. It's a good way. It's a good place to, it's a good way to go see places you haven't been. Yeah, some good food in Savannah, hopefully.

Wasn't there long enough? We had one great meal. Okay. One great meal. Okay. You made the trip by train, I hear, today. I always do. Is that right?

Yeah. I love trains. Yeah, I've bought a family in D.C., so that's the way we travel back and forth. they had to stop and check the brakes about an hour outside inspires confidence how do you do that and there's a guy walking out and he checked the brakes and they came back

and said it's fine I'm going to go do you get um I mean do you how many times are you recognized on a trip like that does that happen well it happens all the time you know I mean they don't I don't get mobbed but you know people are very nice

is it the right level of fame that you feel like you have or are you manageable I you know you forget when somebody comes up to you think you know them from some place you know and then you realize oh okay it's it's not that it's uh stepbrothers or something right did it ramp up a lot with stepbrothers it did stepbrothers it's with an age group it ramped up yeah yeah it widened the the richard jenkins appreciation club well it's dr doback that's who they call me it's doback but then i i guess you also get the and i know will was actually doing some press here in new york today uh for his new

film. I would imagine you also are one of those guys that for years have gotten kind of like the people that are not sure what they know you from and it's a lot of like, did we go to school, my teacher, that kind of a thing. One guy came up to me one day and he said is your name Roy? I said, no. He said

are you sure? I'm pretty sure. I'm not that far out yet. Okay, I'm Roy. That's what I am. What do you want me to be? I'm school or, you know, how do, what do I know you from? That must be such a painful. I mean, it's nice that People want to acknowledge you in some way, but it's also like, you don't want to start listing off your resume and be like, I don't know.

I've done that. That's not good. You don't want to start doing that. Because once you start doing that, listing off movies, they go, no, it didn't see it. No, no, I didn't see it. One guy was. I listed a movie I did, and he said, why would I ever see something like that? So I've stopped doing that. You don't do that. Probably was. Because you just say, what have I seen you? I don't know what you've seen. Well, you've had the kind of career, luckily, that from stepbrothers of the visitor to a, you know, shape of water, it draws different kinds of audiences, which is nice. You know, you can tell, you know, older folks, the visitor, older folks, younger than me, but Olive of Kitteridge, I get that from, you know, so. And for me, I think the first time I saw you on screen was Witches of Eastwick. It was really my first, that was the first part I had in a movie.

Is that right? But you did Silverado, but that was kind of just like, you were there. I said, howdy, and you can't do that, and they shot me, you know. So that was really not. I think Jeff Goldblum, very funny man, said to me one day, who are you playing in Silverado as he was in it? And I said, Kelly. And there was this long pause.

Oh, you're Kelly. And that Jeff Goldblum kind of play. Amazing. Brutal. He's brutal. But what was the least look was, you know, I was telling you before when you walked in, a child of the 80s and uh that was a big one for me and i'm such a as every kind of film geek is i think like yermo george miller is just the gold standard for me and he's been he's been in here

he got we talked about um you know fury road of course but uh that was that was a tough one for him i know he's talked about how like that was he said he'd never come back to the states and do another movie i don't think he has either yeah he's not kind of on his own terms ever since yeah um did you sense that as kind of yeah really yeah he talked about it he just said this is crazy And, you know, he's an really interesting guy. I mean, he's so smart. The doctor, yeah. He's really an interesting dude.

And it was, they wouldn't let me on the set the first day I was shooting because they didn't believe that I was in it. I live probably 60 miles from where we shot in Massachusetts. And I pulled up to the, then the guard wouldn't let me through. And I said, you guy, I'm in this movie. And he goes, yeah, you and everybody else in town. No, I've got some actual stuff to do. I get to watch Veronica Cartwright throw up for extended periods of time. Yeah, cherry pits, no.

And then some grip walked by and the guard said, hey, you know who this guy is? He said, never seen him. Oh, no. It's been up until since that. It was up to feel. When did you start to feel comfortable in your own abilities as an actor? I mean, do you ever ever do, really? I mean, you start to, you know, it's a, God, it's a long, it's for me.

long process. It's never ending. Hopefully it never, I mean, you know, it'll end someday, but you learn constantly as you go. And, but you know, once you think you figured it out, you're in trouble, I think. But I think I got comfortable

with who I was as an actor, maybe 15 years ago. Did that coincide with any specific experience or film or? Well, it was before the visitor. Yeah, I was going to say. And I don't even know, I felt, because it was That was the first time I'd ever had a lead in a film, and last.

But it was one of those things where I felt, yeah, I think I can do this. It's not that. It's not that you can act the part is what people want to watch it. That's really the fear that most actors have, I think. When you walk onto a set, when you walk onto a set like shape of water with someone like Yermo, do you have it already all kind of figured out in your head? I have none of it figured out in my head. None of it.

So that must still be a degree of fear, the first. couple days when you're kind of everyone searching together it is well we rehearsed for about a week or a week and a half um but that's really kind of a just to get to know each other and sally and i became really friends and um which was really important i think for for for uh for the movie but no you don't i don't know i have no idea what i'm gonna do i mean i haven't you have a game plan but you're ready to a lazy actor isn't i haven't read it that day i read it my line i don't believe that for a second yeah no i am But it's until you're there, until you're living in that apartment with her coming in and going out,

you know, once you make a decision about something, this is about how I feel, once you make a decision about something, it's dead, dies. Now, it doesn't, you know, if you say, that's what I'm going to do here, then you destroy any possibility of doing anything else. Any life that could possibly see. You miss things that come at you. You're not aware of the... You just, I mean, the truth is you have to live your life on the screen.

That's what you have to do. Well, and especially on something like this, where I know you've talked about this, and I can tell from seeing the film, the sets are just remarkable. I mean, like, what the world that Giermo creates is both... Feels authentic to the time, but is a heightened reality that only he can create. And that must kind of just like fire off synapses, like, when you walk onto it. Loved it. I was... I called my wife, and I said, you have to see this set.

This is what I thought making movies was going to be about when I was in college, you know, look like this, where everything is authentic and nothing is real, which is so hard to do, all the books and all, I mean, the cats and the sketching and the charcoal and the bed and the refrigerator. And yet it wasn't real. Right. It was otherworldly. It was a piece of art. It was what movies can do that they do.

that they don't do very often. Well, it must inspire. I mean, it's part of why I've just loved everything Guillermo's ever done, whether it works 100% or not. He's put so much time and meticulous care into creating both what you see on screen and everything kind of like that's bursting out of the seams, you know, outside of the frame.

You can't ever say he has not put in the work of like really creating a world. Like nobody I've ever worked with. I mean, that's what he does that better than anybody. And it's a conscious, he knows consciously what he wants to do. And he knew what this film was going to look like. He knew what it was going to sound like. And, you know, he told us, but I still didn't get it until I saw it.

Did you worry when you come onto a set like that again, knowing the kind of the craftsman he is, like, am I just going to be a pawn in his little chess game where there's not going to, I'm not going to have that room to breathe the need as an actor? I would demand it We'd have a conversation But you know That's the difference between now And a few years ago

I wouldn't do that If I thought that's what it was going to be Right You know I read the script I love the part The part was three-dimensional It was this man with his own life His own world

That ends up You know Leaving that world And helping somebody else But But you know He wrote these three-dimensional characters And that's why I said yes to the film

And I knew I mean I didn't know But I was pretty sure He was going to film that But what you see immediately with Guillermo, he says, let's see what you have to bring. He has so much empathy also for, like, every kind of character. Like, he obviously has a clear love of the outsider,

of the person that feels like they're not being seen literally or, or figuratively. And that's what this film, it really, it feels like it's an ultimate distillation of what he's all about in that, like, virtually every character is unseen in a way on the fringe. And that's why it takes place in 19. Right. Because that's the time when everybody's let's go back to that. Yeah, the good old days. It was an American grade again. Well, you know, and I grew up in 1962. I was a freshman or sophomore in high school.

It was great, but I was a white man. Right. You know? If you were anything other than that, literally anything other than that, it wasn't so great. You know, and, you know, but it was a great time for me, you know, but it's really, you know, until I saw the movie, I knew what we were doing, but it,

the degree in which the, I think the brilliance of putting it in that year is just, I mean, that to me was spectacular. And I didn't realize that until I saw it. You mentioned kind of the time you grew up in, and also the place where you grew up. I'm curious, like, was it a diverse place at all? Did you? No.

No, no. No, there were no gay people in my high school until our 40th reunion. And then, you know, you just didn't come out. You just didn't say you were gay. And you didn't, there were no African Americans in my town. I grew up in a farm town. It was great.

I mean, I had a wonderful childhood. It was 60 miles west of Chicago. It was a safe, wonderful place to grow up. But you didn't really know the world. The only way you knew the world was through movies and books. That's the only way you could see the world. But, you know, I had a great time. You had an early love of film, right?

I loved it from the minute I started going to the movies, yeah. What are your first indelible memories of... We'll be going. Haley Mills. Okay. I just fell in love with Haley Mills. And I thought I could go to London and be her gardener. I did.

I had this fantasy. What a romantic. And then she would see me out there planting tomatoes. And it would fall for me. So being an actor was the closest thing you could get to get. This will get me close to Haley Mills. I mean, I was just, but we used to go. I used to go to the movies every Friday and Saturday night.

Didn't matter what was on. We just went. I went. I saw it. Sometimes we stayed twice. That's back in the day. You could sit and watch it again. But I loved movies. But you say, how do you go? How do you do that? Right. And nobody in my town had ever done that. Well, actually, somebody who was on Raymond, on, Perry Mason? Perry Mason. De La Street. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Barbara. Barbraban. Not no. Gosh, she's not awful. Yeah. I can't remember her name. But it's William, William Cat's mom.

I remember the actor William Cat was a yes right yes and and her husband his father was Wild Bill Hickok okay yeah oh gosh it's terrible that's okay I grew up loving Perry Mason that was a great show but she was from DeKalb and that would always come up if she was ever in in Chicago or Illinois so did you express at the time like a like even a secret dream or was it a not-so-secret dream or was it it was it well I didn't know what to do I didn't know how to go about it, but I told my parents, I did a play in eighth grade, and I came home and I told my parents that wanted to be an actor. And I didn't know this, but my father just freaked out. He told my mother, I will not allow this. It's not going to happen. He'll starve to death. This is not how a grown-up

makes a living. You don't do that. We had no point of reference. No, not. And so my mother said, relax, and he said, I'm not going to relax. I will not allow it. So she called up the theater teacher at my junior high school. And I didn't know any of this. They did an article on me in the local paper and somebody sent me the article and this theater teacher told this story. My parents were both dead when she told. So anyway, she said, my mother called her up and said, you have to talk to my husband. He's being unreasonable. And God, bless my mother, the sweetest. And so she said, we'll put him on the phone. And he got on the phone. He said, I will not allow this. She said, him no way to me. He said, no, I will not allow it.

She said, okay, okay, you go ahead, you put your foot down, and you say no, but you have to understand that when you do that, he will never forgive you for the rest of his life. And if you're willing to live with that, you go right ahead. Wow. And I never knew my father was against me being an actor.

My father, I thought he's my biggest supporter and my biggest fan. That's a beautiful story. That's amazing. What a gift. What a gift. I mean, I never got a chance to thank him or my mom. But I did go back and thanked her, the drama teacher. I knocked on her door, and she was very ill. And we talked for an hour. And I just said, I had no idea.

That's amazing. You were bringing me to tears. I mean, me too. I read it in the, and all I could think of was, you know, listen, if you have parents and you love them, tell them you love them. Yeah. Because you don't know what they did. The secret sacrifices. You didn't know what happening behind the bedroom door that you had no idea of the conversations.

I mean, my father, I just, I was gobsmacked. I had no idea. I thought he was pushing me to be an actor. And all the while, he was terrified. And not to mention, it took a while, at least in terms of the film career. We'll get to that. But, like, you, I mean, were you making a living? Like, you were doing a lot of theater?

You moved to Rhode Island, where you still live? Were you making a decent living? No, I was making a check every week. But my amazing wife was, she went back, she started to teach. She's a choreographer and a dancer. And she ran the dance, the arts magnet program in a high school in Rhode Island. She ran the dance program. So if it wasn't for her, I mean, I was working in regional theater making, you know, like.

Right. And then we had a daughter. Our daughter was born and it was like really scary, how we're going to educate this kid. So I went out to L.A. for about 10 months. thinking i could uh find my way is this in your 20s or 30 i was in my 28 which by the way is still like a decade or so before the film career started to right yeah it's about 37 or eight i started doing movies yeah 36 or seven so clearly that trip did not that did not do i did not do well out there um i it was i as they say got my ass handed to me and i couldn't nobody would see me i

couldn't get in anywhere. I mean, I was this, and I was this goofy-looking 28-year-old with corduroy pants because it was cold when I left Rhode Island and it was 100 degrees. And so everywhere I went, I was sweating. And I just, no, I didn't get anywhere. And I said, I had to borrow $200 from my uncle who was in the Air Force in San Bernardino for gas money to get back to, uh, and I, my, my wife and our daughter stayed at her parents' house for, for all that time waiting and they came back yeah and so um i came back and said it's not going to happen that's got to be a tough road trip back by yourself thinking in your head like it was really depressing it was really depressing but um you know i'm glad i'm glad it happened glad i went and then

in the ensuing eight or nine years you're still you're in rhode island your your wife still making a decent living so you are able to get by and i start doing plays at different theaters i do with the L. Rep. And then John Pasquen, who is Joe Beth Williams, her husband, is a wonderful director. And I was at the O'Neill Center doing theater there. And he said, why don't you come do a play at the Longworth holiday with me? And I said, John, I had just done play at Yale Rep. I said, I don't want it. He said, no, come. And I said, no. And he finally said, let's do this. So I said, okay, I did it. And one night, Sandy Dennis, remember Sandy Dennis? Remember Sandy? Sure. Yeah, yeah. And Bill Tresh, who was a manager, her manager,

he had a place up in Connecticut in the weekends, and they came to see Holiday, and she said, sign him. And he came backstage afterwards, and I was 36, and he said, I want to sign you. I said, okay. This isn't supposed to happen this way. It isn't. But, you know, I'd forgotten this. I'd forgotten about it because it was like I'm going to have to make my way doing this.

Right. Because I didn't. I wasn't in New York. Nobody knew who I was. Right. It's not like I was in the New York theater scene. So he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to be in movies. And he said, okay. I said, I don't live in New York. He said, I don't care where you live. But if I call you for an audition, you've got to get on the train or the car, however you do this, and you've got to come. You can't say it's too far. It's too much. I said, okay. I said, but, you know, just don't get me an audition at 7 o'clock in the morning. You know, try to get in the afternoon. So I did that for, I don't know, 10, 12 years.

Sometimes I would go in four or five times a week. And that's before the Seller Express. I was taking the, because it was cheaper, too. But it was like sometimes a five-hour train route. Yeah, you've gotten to know the train routes quite well over the last 30-plus years, I'm sure. And you'd go into an audition, and then you'd have a line like, okay, freeze. Back on the train. Thank you.

And I go, oh, God, I got five hours they went to train. To think about what you just did, about one line, right? And you get home, and the phone rings. Can you come in tomorrow? Okay, yeah, go ahead. And so that was, but, you know, I didn't complain. I think, I think about it now, and I think, oh, my God, that was, what do you? But it was a chance, I mean, he was.

It speaks to your love and passion for this thing, which is more than a job to you, which is obviously, it's, you know, it's kind of who I am. Yeah. I've always been an actor. I can't imagine me doing anything else. I drove a laundry truck and had five accidents in two months. you know it's like i uh my dad said he was a uh a dentist he said you should be a dentist i said dad that means i have to graduate from dental school that i don't think i can do that but you know it never occurred to me to do anything else ever and well by the time so did did working on

something like uh which is a basically kind of jump start yeah that changed it just by being in a high profile film and i and you were holding your own and you know you immediately like again I remember that I remember that performance because I mean you know you didn't have the biggest part but you've it it worked you felt a part of that world I did yeah I know it changed everything that changed everything all of a sudden agents were interested in me and and it's all because of Bill Tresh crazy took a chance and Sandy Dennis who I did thank I did think but people that people don't often talk about him you've already cited a few like three or four people like the people that that prop up an actor's career that you that's yeah there's so many whether it's a teacher an agent a of parents it's and then you go along you go along there's something else happens somebody else comes into your life sure and um and then it changes sometimes it goes this way sometimes it goes down sometimes up and um you know um i have five or six people like that yeah just to change my life you um a couple a couple filmmakers and films i wanted to mention um you were mike nichols a couple times twice yes i love mike

I mean, every actor that's worked with him, well, that's the first line out of their mouth. What was it? What was about the experience of working with him that felt special? Well, I first auditioned for him for a play he was directing in New York, and it was, oh, God, what was in heaven? It was like William Hurd, however can I tell, and all these stars. It seemed it was a big hit. And they asked me to understudy every part in the play.

I said, I can't, I can't do that. So I thought I'd never hear from him again. Right. And then he called me up to do Wolf. Yeah. And I just loved him. I loved him immediately. The first day on the set, I play it this kind of vague cop.

Right. Which was not very clear in the story. I played a lot of those parts. But he was interested in. He would make it work. He wanted to know what we, you know. And I don't think he's very smart. I think it just seems to me to ask kind of questions

that the questions are not really probing and so the first day on the set I'm sitting at my desk and they say action and the phone rings the phone's not supposed to ring and I'm and there's a Mike Nichols yells from off camera it's your mother on line too

wow so I picked the phone up I go yeah mom and there's nobody on the phone so I just start talking I say what what is it mom what do you want no mom you don't put the cable box on three you put the television on three and it was this and and I said what what do we happen tonight again I'm not again okay all right mom yeah I get home like so I hung a simple mama's boy I got a phone up and I hear from the back so you live with your mother that's amazing that's how he got to it he just wanted to see what would happen. So did he

engineer for the phone to ring, or was he just making this at that moment? It was his idea. Yeah, he did it. He was just, he was incredible. Yeah. So it was a whole thing where I couldn't type very well. I needed white out. You know, this guy was just not too bright. Well, again, speaking to

Mike's, and similar to what you're talking about, Guillermo, like, filling in the smaller characters with lived in details that make that world come to life. Yeah. Yeah, he was I think his assistant director who became a producer said I've known him for 30 years

I've never heard him or Pete himself He was one of these guys It just was Smartest, interesting guy in the room Sounds like It's kind of like Giermo Yeah Giermo is I would go to Giermo

And ask him about stuff That had nothing to do with the movie Just to see if he'd thought about it I just to test them It was like you seem like the smartest person I've met let's test that here I just wanted to say Have you seen every single movie?

Yeah I think you have you have but he knows who he is he's incredibly articulate and he comes from a real point of view which was Mike Nichols Mike Nichols was

he was amazing definitely another unique filmmaker in their own right in a much different kind of way is David O' Russell to say the least I mean running with disasters again was such a wonderful piece of work

and an amazing ensemble that was another one that changed I would imagine yeah right and David you know I'd done a few things but he put Josh and I together, Josh Boland, and we read together, and then I went down, and John, no, we read us separately, and I went down, they said, you want to bring you back and read with Josh, and I said, Josh, just come and let's go, I don't really want to. Josh, what are you talking about? I said, I don't think he's going to use me, you know, and so we went up and we read, and we just had a ball. It was kind of, again, every character is so fascinating in that film, like, you can say that on all of his films, but like that very unlikely, you've never seen a pair. depicted like that in a film

these like ATF agents two gay men like you know in time you wouldn't see you just I don't think you still would see that in the film you know it's one of the reasons I cast you is that you were a man who happened to be gay yeah it wasn't a flamboyant crazy depiction it was a very

lived in and and so but that was just one fun day after the other yeah yeah and Prolin I know is another character a smart guy but a very interesting and a really good actor Oh, my gosh. We've been discovered it more and more. Yeah, it's really good. Really good.

And it seems like, yeah, you mentioned like fording kind of like jump-sturning things. Like you started to work with like, like, whether you were gravitating towards them or the directors were gravitating towards you, you know, Sidney Pollock and Clint Eastwood, you're starting to like accumulate this nice roster of filmmaker. Yeah, I mean, Sydney, I did two things with one I just acted with him in and one he directed me and we acted together. He was a great actor, by the way. He was a really good actor. I think he wanted to be an actor more than he did a director. He was just one of those guys that, like yourself, honestly, that never a false note. It just felt like a lived-in real...

But it's funny, when you're acting with him, he would cut and he goes, how was that? Oh, no. Something to insecure. Yeah, sorry, is it. Oh, well, shall we ask the director? Oh, you're the director. That's in me, yeah. He was, Sidney was great.

Sidney, I think I heard that he wanted to see the visitor, a tape of the visitor. He was very sick at the time. Oh, wow. And I don't know if he ever did, but I, he was great. Sidney was great. By the time you got to the visitor, which, you know, Ferris, say, became an unlikely, you know, mini kind of phenomenon. You know, got you had an Academy Award nomination. This was the great Tom McCarthy.

But I know you even had trepidation, not about the part, but about like, are we really going to make this with me in a leading role? You said before you hadn't ever been the leading guy. No. That, again, this is not one of those things that happens. no it doesn't happen and he called me and said I knew him I didn't know him very well but this is my agent this is my agent Rhonda Price

who is Tom's agent and she kept shoving movies of mine to him because she had been reading the script he was writing and she said this is Richard this is Richard so he didn't he knew me but he didn't so she's given him movies so then he called me up and we went out to dinner in L.A. and I just said okay we're

both working out there in different movies he was acting in a movie went to dinner and we talked in a nice time and then about six months later he called me up and said I wrote this part for you I want you to know if I wanted you tell me if you're interested in doing it and okay you send me the script and it was just like I mean it was I said to my wife who never reads things that I said you have to read this and tell me if it's as good as I think it is because am I just see because it's a leading part or it's actually as great as it seems and it's just The writing was so brilliant.

And so he called me up the next day and said, do you want to do this? And I said, Tom, nobody's going to give you money to make this movie with me in this part. And he said, that wasn't my question. You let me worry about that. Do you want to do it? I said, you bet. So that was the...

Had you come close to kind of like getting the kind of leading role that you... I never was up for leading rules like that. Really? No. No, not really. I mean, I'm a character actor, you know? Yeah. And is that something that at some point you kind of like made your piece? with or like at a certain point you're like you know what i'm i'm getting to work with great people these are rewarding parts and it's it's it's not on the cards it's it's it's got to be on the page you know there you go through times where you'd have to do whatever comes along just because you have

children to educate and and and you want to be an actor and you want to keep busy and you want to keep working um and then but that day comes when you can say no yes yes no right and and that's a nice day because you don't have to do you know no they're they're not going to warner brother's not going to put a hundred million up and say hey let's put richard jenkins in this part it's upsetting to me to hear that you know you kind of made light of it but like in the wake of the visitor you know which was a success and got you an oscar nom yeah it sounds like you didn't get other opportunities to be the guy oh it doesn't need to be a hundred million dollar movie i'm talking about five or ten million dollars yeah yeah i did okay yes yes and um but

it's still hard you know it's it's not you know my career changed after that yeah really changed after that. That's the one that really changed. Yeah. But, you know, it's who I am. I'm a character actor, but, you know, it doesn't mean I'll do crappy parts. Right. Right. One film that I do

want to mention, because I'm obsessed with and I've talked to Matt Reeves a number of times, it was my favorite film of that year was let me in. And Matt, I put at the highest ranks of the filmmakers working today, and I know he's very meticulous and has his own method,

but he knows what he wants, and I've seen that movie many times, and I just love, I love so much about that movie. I mean, I guess I don't have a specific question, except I just want to hear kind of like what your experience was, and, you know, there's a lot of tough things about that character. It's not, you know, not saying much under prosthetics for some key sequences. There's the car crash. Like, it's, again, an interesting challenge, I would imagine.

From my perspective, isn't what you? I don't have a lot of lines to remember. That's good. No, I liked Matt. I liked the part because it was, anything was possible with that part. You know, he gave me the freedom to kind of figure it out. We kind of came up with the garbage bags and all that stuff. And what would you do if you didn't have money?

And if you were trying to make a costume to keep the blood off you, what would you do? So all that stuff was really interesting. and fun. And I just love the guy, too. But you know he's going to be an important director when you're working with. You just know he is. You know, that car crash was just, it was amazing.

Without going into like a two-hour master class on filmmaking, how was that even achieved? This is essentially one, continuous shock. I don't know if he wants you to be a tie. Okay, but not even movement being the magic, that's all good. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it unless he said it was okay. What about your final scene in the film, which I find really moving, again, thanks to Giacchino's score and your performance and Chloe's performance. Again, you've kind of like been burned totally alive and you sacrifice yourself to this child that he's done his whole life.

Yeah. You know, we always, I always, this is what I was playing, that I met her the same age as the young boy meeting her now. Right. I've aged and she hasn't. and I've been her caretaker, and my life is devoted to her. Yeah. And I see the writing on the wall. I see the kid coming in.

Right. Because I can't do it as well anymore, you know. Yeah. I'm screwing up. And it was an interesting part. It was a really fun part for an actor to deal with. On the flip side, there's no segue to stepbrothers, but we have to mention stepbrothers. Because, again, I would imagine, I don't know if you, maybe a love,

relationship is probably wrong. They're all good that's come of it. But, like, there's probably a disproportionate amount of attention you get for that role. Like, yeah, you do. You know, it's the nature of the beast. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it was a very popular movie. And it's, it was popular, but after it hit, like, DVD, that's one to another level. Nuts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam McKay's fascinating in his own right in different ways. Like, I mean, I've been on set where he's been shooting and I know he, like, you know, he's on the bullhorn, tossing out lines to people. Was that something that you were comfortable with or something? I mean, David does that too. Oh, really? Yeah, David.

But it depends. I mean, yeah, I'm – Adam said, you know, we'll do the script two or three takes, and then we'll kind of veer off. I said, we didn't get through one take. I mean, these guys can't stop. I mean, they're just – but everything they say is hysterical. Oh, yeah. And then Adam will give you –

Adam came up to me during the – The California wine mixture. That's the other thing I hear. People always say, the fucking California wine mixer. But he came up to me and he said, go tell the guys that you wanted to be a dinosaur when you were a kid. And I said, what? He said, just go tell them that you wanted to be a dinosaur. I said, Adam, what are you talking about?

No, no, no, just go tell him. So I went over and that's, and I came off. And I said, and, of course, John and Will are going, Dad, that's impossible. You can't be. And I came back and I said, well, that won't be in the movie. And he went, oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, come on, if you're going to make step,

if you can't have fun making stepbrothers, then you should look for another job. And it's very, you, you play unhinged very well, like, angry and. Well, those guys do it to you. That was an acting. That was just, I mean, those guys. Whatever you say to them, they have an answer for. I mean, I think I come up with this good line to John.

He's got an answer for everything. Yeah. And it's like after a while, they, as you well know, those guys in the year always asked about a sequel. I saw Will talking just recently about the fact that the closest they came was a treatment where they would live with you in retirement. In retirement community. Did you ever, like, read anything on that? I didn't read it, but Adam, I saw Adam one day. He goes, we're going to do a sequel.

And I said, oh, good. And then it never happened. I think it might be okay if we didn't. Right. I think either way, we're fine. Like, it could be a fun experience, but, hey, the worst things tend to leave a classic like that alone. Well, we better hurry up. Don't worry, don't worry.

I'm going to be in the nursing home by the time. You know, we've referenced, you know. He'll be orderly. Stop. Just enough. The fact that you make your life and have for many, many years in Rhode Island, which is not, you might be the first guest in my podcast that does that, it makes that work. Um, you know, from the outside in, it seems like you, you've, I don't know how you got there, but you cracked a code in kind of like a work life balance pretty well. Um, you know, you've, you've been married from your early 50 years. You have two kids. You're living away from the, I have a new grand job. Nice. Congratulations. Um, from the insanity that is both New York and LA, but yet you, you're able to work with the best directors is, you know, you know, in retrospect, what's the best decision that you think you made to kind of like arrive at this kind of, kind of. Um, you're, you know, you know, you know, in retrospect,

nice balance of work life. I don't think I made a decision. I don't think it was ever a decision. If you look back on your life and you see things that you just said, oh, okay, or no, I don't think so. It meant nothing at the time, but you see that, oh, my God, if I'd said yes to that, that would have been entirely different. I think it's, I think dumb luck is a lot of it.

I do. I think in careers and in your life, I'm incredibly fortunate, knock on wood. I have an amazing family and loving and smart. And my wife and I, she's a choreographer, and I direct sometimes in the theater. I used to direct more. I stopped. And now we do things together. We do musicals.

And we co-direct and she choreographs. And we've done two now, and it's just really fun. It's really fun. Have you done the state work here in the city? Have you worked here in the... Never on stage, no. No. No, never had.

Oh, I did a couple of workshops, but never, never on stage. So what is the criteria now that, you know, especially in the last decade, plus I would imagine there's an actual degree of choice because, you know, as you reference, like, I think that's the thing that most people don't realize about great actors is that there's very often little choice. It's like take what's available and let the wind take you where you will. But at this point in your career, you do. You get to kind of steer it a little bit. I don't, you know, I don't turn down movies that, you know, Tom Cruise accepts, you know. But, but I, you know, I have options. Yeah.

Because, I mean, but there just seems to be no reason to do something if you don't love it. Right. No. Are you relieved, excited that, when did you first see shape of the water before the festival circuit? I came back, yeah, I came back to resh. I had to grow the beard again and do one take, one added. shot for the end holding Sally and so I came back I don't know when it was but it was he had a rough cut not a rough cut he had temp music and he had right and he said he said I got

to see this you know because I don't usually not really crazy to see the movies sure but I watched in it in a screening room and and not a screening room and editing room and I mean I got lost I forgot I was in it all of a sudden I show up again I went oh yeah I mean it just blew me away And then I saw it in Venice. It's exciting to see the audiences fall in love with this one. And there's so much to love in it, as I've referenced, like, you know, hopefully I think Sally's going to stop by. And I've talked to Guillermo on the podcast and Mike, as you can imagine,

Michael Shannon's been a regular. So, and not to mention Stoolbar and Octavia, it's like there's an embarrassment of riches here. I know. It's incredible. And it was such fun to do. Yeah. I love Sally Hawkins. I just love.

Octavia is great. Michael, I've known, we actually, when I was nominated, he was nominated for the first time. And we kind of knew each other a little bit and talked. And I'd do panels with him and he was hilarious. He's just this kind of subversive

to say the least. But I didn't really do any scenes with him here, but I saw him on set and everything. I haven't really spent much time with Sally, but I mean, she's obviously from the Mike Lee stuff on. She's always been excellent. But this is, you know, it's a nearly, it's a silent role essentially.

And she has to be brilliant in this For this movie to work But she's the only one he wanted Which again speaks to his like I don't think he would have done the movie if he couldn't have gotten there Because again you can imagine like the nefarious like studio executives Like I don't know where Sally Hawkins is frankly on that list for a bankable movie So I'm so thrilled like Gierma used whatever cloudy has to

And to put her in it You know I mean she's just extraordinary and and I said to her you're my friend now and there's nothing you can do about. We're in this together. Stop fighting. No, we just had such fun. We laughed a lot.

And it was great. You know, this is kind of the first, I see a friendship on screen when I watch it. I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, you look like your friends. Yeah. You know, she's fantastic. And Octavia, hilarious. Well, the good news is you all will be spending a bit of time together

on this silly kind of award circuit, which serves a good cause in spreading the good word for this film. I'm sure I'll see more of you on a, on carpets, et cetera. Honestly, it's a great piece of work. As carpets, as in hair pieces? Yeah, exactly. That's my euphism.

You know what I'm talking. No, as you can tell, I'm such a fan of both your work and this film in particular, and it's honestly been a real pleasure to catch up with you, man. It's really great, isn't it? It's a special one. Well, thank you.

You made it easy. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, write, subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. American history is full of infamous tales that continue to captivate audiences, decades, or even hundreds of years after they happened. On the infamous America podcast, you'll hear the true stories of the Salem Witch Trials and the escape attempts from

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