Happy Sad Confused - Richard Linklater

Episode Date: July 8, 2014

Independent filmmaking icon Richard Linklater is still playing with the art-form with his latest bold 12 years in the making project, “Boyhood”. Josh chats with Linklater about time, resisting elder statesman status, and whether he has anything in common with Michael Bay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Because when you're doing big things, your tools should to. Visit square.ca to get started. Hey, guys. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I am Josh Harrow. It's your fearless host. And welcome back to the podcast after a week off due to, you know, scheduling issues, life, that sort of thing. We are back with another special episode with filmmaker Richard Linklater. Of course, if you're a movie's fan, you know who this guy is. He is, no man is more synonymous with independent filmmaking from Slack or dates to confused through the before. trilogy and all the way up to his new film, which is about to come out, which I cannot recommend highly enough.

It's really one of the most special films I've seen in some time. It's called Boyhood. In a nutshell, 12 years are chronicled in the course of boyhood. It is a film about a family, and most specifically, about a kid growing up. We watch a young boy from the age of 7 through 19, portrayed by a young man named Eller Coltrane. and it is just a profound, really fascinating look at a coming-of-age story, as has never been told before. Also features great performances from Ethan Hawke and Patricia Arquette as the parents of the kid. And I got a chance to see this for the first time at Sundance, where it debuted in January.

I talked to Richard about this a little bit, and it was a really special night, and I know it's going to be something that people are talking about for years to come, much less the award season, where I think it will be very much part of the conversation and deservedly so. I hope you guys enjoy this. Richard Linklater is a fascinating guy who has a lot of interesting things to say about the state of filmmaking today, his own evolution as a filmmaker. He is soft-spoken, humble, yet wise, and he's got the goods.

He's one of our best filmmakers, so it's a real pleasure to sit down with someone as talented and thoughtful as he. As always, hit me up on Twitter, guys, at Joshua Horowitz. Check out all our fun stuff on MTV.com, afterhours.mtvee.com for my comedic shenanigans. And just check out all our good stuff. We're cranking away on everything and anything in the world of pop culture. In the meantime, check out this new edition of Happy Say Confused with The Very Talented, the Very Wise. Mr. Richard Linklater.

Congratulations, though, on this film. I didn't get a chance to talk to you. I was there at Sundance at that crazy opening screening, which, I don't know, from my perspective, it's one of the most thrilling experiences I've had as a film goer. Can me a sense? What was your experience at Sundance? Well, it's pretty incredible to, you know,

the build-up of this film over the years personally, you know, the time invested in it. to feel that that connects and that resonates in some reciprocal manner. Like, you can't really see the movie and not feel that time. It's about that. Right. You know, so many movies that I've done, I'm trying to hide the effort.

It's supposed to feel really natural, but you couldn't really hide it, even though the film's very intimate and kind of small and its scale. Yeah. It's a contradiction because it's really epic, too, at the same time. So it felt great so far, you know, when people have seen it to get that. to connect, you know. Absolutely.

In that way, for it to be kind of the spirit of what the film was trying to communicate to feel like that lands, that's always satisfying. Was there an effort in the last few years to keep it somewhat secret or not? Because I remember talking to you, I feel like I've got to interviewed you before, I talked to Ethan before, anything kind of kept talking about it. And I think those in the know, film journalists like myself, it sounded like such a tantalizing. It bubbled up over the years.

Right? Yeah, I mean, there was nothing to gain from talking about it. I didn't get anything out of talking about it. I downplayed it. I had friends still accusing me like, hey, I asked you about that and you said, uh, it's just this little, because I mean, I'll talk about things. You know, I'm not superstitious or any of that. I'll talk about what I'm working on next or whatever if I know. But this one, it was so, I guess the unknowable future maybe in a way, you felt a little, they just, there was never a film I wanted to talk about less during its making and yet the word got out year one I think someone's agent leaked the word right their client was in it and then it was like so it was there for those few who do their research right so all the however many films like came out in the meantime often that last question is what are you working on next but it would all you know what's this film that's coming out in 2014 or 15 or whatever and I have to oh that's just this you know so it was an awkward spot to be in all these years but were you confident throughout the production that it was going to add up to something were there were there years where it felt like wait am i losing my focus

is this meandering or did it feel like okay i'm staying on track and it feels like we're going to get there it always felt yeah it was always going as plan technically i think there was a few points early on that maybe i questioned the plan like because i had bet the whole farm on a collection of intimate moments that that would add up to something that was just the tone that I knew so well but as you do it I remember I had a few moments like is this going to be enough or people can be bored maybe they might be because this is just kind of little stuff of life you know why am I maybe I should be you know I never wavered I just I would like okay and then I'd watch the three years first you know as we added I said okay no this is working exactly as plan just stick with your plan don't so sometimes I think there's a temptation

in our culture particularly to just go big you know totally we're Americans we go big we go big we go big you know so I didn't like but this isn't it is big the idea is big enough let's just keep it at the you know so if I ever had any wavering it was it was at that very private conceptual

thing that I was going for so but I never wavered it was never I never lost sleep I just you wouldn't be alive if you didn't have, you know, just a little bit of... Well, because if this went through, and it never would, frankly, go through, quote, unquote, the studio system, something like this in this way, but, like, I guess, hypothetically, if it did,

you would imagine there would be conversations, like, okay, where's the, where's the deflowering scene? Where is the... What are the stakes of the character? You know, they've got to have stakes. What's the... Why do we care about these people? You know, all the usual...

Right. ...jitsu that you get through, you know, storytelling, so... A lot is, we should... been made about obviously how physically, emotionally your young actor changed changes throughout the 12 years and obviously Patricia and Ethan

but, you know, filmmakers evolved too. Do you feel like you are a much different filmmaker than you were 13 or 14 years ago whenever you first started this? Unfortunately, no, I haven't involved at all. I don't think that shows in the word. No, not on this film. Not on this film. Because the conscious effort was you had to...

Yeah, I'm telling one story. I'm locked in to early conception if I evolved it was you know in the other films maybe but this was you know a director's job is the tonal you know consistency or you know storytelling so yeah this one was never open for yeah I didn't want to oh the film to look or feel different at the end it's one sitting one movie are there films you feel like have dealt with um coming of age or the passage of time particularly well and and the outside of, you know, people reference and I love the Ups series and in the non-fiction format.

Documentary has done it well. But what are the benchmarks for you in terms of the other side of filmmaking? You know, there's not a lot in the narrative realm. I mean, people point to the true foe, Dwan well, you know, but those are, you know, those films over an 18, 20-year period that are wonderful, but those are closer really to my before movies. Right. You know, as far as these gaps in time and revisiting characters.

I didn't have any precedent, you know, for a narrative that was this incremental kind of longitudinal narrative thing. It felt uncharted. I expected to find out at this stage, someone show up and say, oh, well, there was this film from, you know, wherever that, right. You know, like, but it never happened, you know, it never. I mean, initially, I thought, well, this is a very simple idea. I can't imagine it not having been done. And now I'm at the end. I can tell you exactly why it hasn't been done.

And in a nutshell, that would be or that a list of 10,000 things. I kind of doubt it will be done again. And I don't mean that in any other way except that it's such a wildly impractical idea that so doesn't go with the psyche of most narrative storytelling. Right. And as opposed to most filmmaking, which is bottom line dollars and cents, what is your I'm going to be, this is based on trust and friendship. And that's the practical side.

Just the idea of relinquishing control, because we're all control freaks, to relinquish control to an unknown future. Right. I got no control. I don't know. Anything can happen. You know, it's how you view the world. You know, you're collaborating with a very unpredictable, you know, partner here. Predictable and unpredictable.

Just like all of us, we go through lives. Like, you have a general plan for your life. Sure. In general, you're aiming whether you get there, eh, you know. Right. So it was one of those. It was like a life project. So it would unnerve the control element of any of us.

So I just had to, that was just the design to tell this particular story. Yeah. It's also counterintuitive to where we're at now, which is like so much of media and pop culture, is based on instant gratification. Yeah. And one would imagine. almost like conceiving of this today like maybe it's a Netflix here maybe every year there's a 10-minute segment on Netflix or I got asked that a lot well you know and even

IFC they've they've forgotten this at this point but like hey maybe we can show a little bit of it everyone like right no are you crazy like it's one film don't even well you know we got to justify her like real show there's nothing to show it's one movie it's all you know but we haven't talked to that about that in nine years right how much do you jazzed by the fact that you are in relatively uncharted waters and that you, you know, I mean, it's extremely difficult to break the form that we have watched in cinemas for a hundred years now. And this is not. I know. I have to think about that. I mean, I lived it, but I always thought I'd be here with people telling me, you know, oh, it's been done, but it hasn't, like I said.

And I have to think, I get asked like, how'd you have the idea? I've got to go, well, I'm the guy to actually have this very simple idea, you know, because I've spent my whole adult life thinking about narrative and time and storytelling. And then I actually had a very specific desire to make a film about childhood. And my issue was the time limitation based on the physicality of the actor. So to transcend that. And then I got to think about that for two years. So my very simple idea would come out of my thinking about this because it's kind of how I approach cinema

and my specific desire at that moment. So like science or something an idea kind of comes up out of problem solving. You know, so that was, and it's like I'm the scientist to do it. Right. Because I have spent 30 whatever years thinking about

narrative storytelling and time specifically. Structural right. You know these structural elements You know, so I've kind of replaced plot with structure in my cinema to whatever degree. So it all makes sense that I would have this fundamentally very simple idea. It's interesting also in that, you know, you've kind of come to the end of two sagas in the last year, presumably unless another story emerges. Yeah, it's weird that these two came to similar within a year, the two finish lines of these two kind of live projects. Yeah.

It, that wasn't planned, really. I just, you know, started, it became apparent, like, oh, yeah, and the 12 years going to be done, and that's, oh, they're kind of done around within. Is it scared to think that, like, okay, two, you know, I don't, you know, two of my magnum opuses, two of the things that people are, you know, are, you know, are. Well, next pressure. Exactly. And I mean, no? Because even within, within all those times, look at all the other films, you know, I've done. So it's just the next story.

So I don't, I mean, I'm kind of an answer. grandiose in my view of the world and what I'm doing so yeah it all comes in retrospect like even that what I just said about I'm having to explain in retrospect what I was just doing on instinct I don't even know if I'm the best narrator of that but um it's just the way it worked out you know like so much of life it's just the way it's worked out so far got a lot of other movies I'm trying to make any and he is um hopefully bizarrely grandiose ideas as these last two? Yeah, in a strange way.

I have a couple that are unique in that way, but maybe not quite as... I don't think the 12-year... Yeah, that one's in its own category. Yeah. I've had so many... Everything about it was different and continues to be, you know, and absolutely continues to be different

than anything else. It's just in its own category. Even processing it, I've talked about, like, the film's opening this Friday, supposedly. I don't feel like I'm done shooting I mean I know the film's done and all that effort but I haven't Even mentally

And I don't mean that in some weird nostalgic way It's just kind of like You know It's just such a big part of life And I don't really Haven't fully processed it yet Right You know where other films

I'm so ready to move on And I have here too But it's just such a Big thing in some weird way Everything about it's been different On every emotional technical level you can imagine, or if it is

plain, if it's just your basic thing, you know, the martini shot, everything is that times 12. So it's what you would normally have times 12. How do you feel that? It's that times 12. And you get 12 rap parties. Yeah, 12 mini rap parties.

It's interesting, I mean, this is coming on it in the heat of summer. I mean, I've this kind of films I've been covering or, you know, lately a lot of blockbusters as comes in the summer. I mean, do you imagine like, do you and Michael Bay do the same thing. We're another kind of, this is a different kind of epic. It's true. It's true. It is that rare thing, an

indie epic. It's true. Absolutely. A lot of those. But I mean, do you imagine that, like, a blockbuster film, like, Michael Bay and you are do you have the same job description? Do you consider yourself having the same job? I don't know. Do you? I don't, I haven't thought about that. I don't know. We're both film directors, that's for sure. So. Both end up with... Yeah, we're in 120 minutes or so

and you're in celluloid sometimes celluloid we're in the I mean yeah we're closer than myself and a or him

you know something from another world well that shows you the realm of what films can be totally I mean are you you know would you consider yourself a film I don't know I mean how do you characterize your film taste

and has it evolved over the years do you still look up new filmmakers old filmmakers. Try to be just anything old, you know, I mean, you can the history of cinema is so vast. You know, I'm still filling in gaps, you know, I haven't seen every Bergman film.

I haven't seen every Fossbender as much as I live. You know, so there's historical gaps. And then, you know, you get older and you realize, okay, I've got limited time. Right. You know, it's the thing about hitting 50. You're like, well, I can't just, yeah, I was going to get to that, but I've been almost going to get to that for 20-something years.

I better either get to it, but it just makes your time kind of precious. Sure. You know, and you realize, well, do I really have two and a half hours for that film in a genre that's really not, or should I, you know, download this and, you know, so selective. Do you think, I mean, you know, you're a young man still, but do you think that, like, in your 60s or 70s you can be a true independent filmmaker? Is it tough to still remain on the fringe or on the outside looking in?

I think, in a way, it's gotten even easier in a way. I mean, the categories are more separate. When I first started, there was kind of this blurry line between studio. You know, they were given indie guys. You know, I got to make Dazing and Fuse as my next film after Slacker. That didn't happen anymore. You know, they don't see a film at Sundance and you get to make something that's just kind of like it, your next film at a studio.

It's like, oh, you can get hired to do the franchise film, but they're not going to let you do your kind of movie at a studio. So you just stay in that indie camp. or you don't and you yeah I don't it's just different it's a different time but do you worry that we're losing thankfully there's that there's that room in the

indie side of it but it's changed a lot quite a bit too it's harder to get the film seen and absolutely distributed properly I mean do you worry that we're losing some of our finest like independent voices too I mean like you know I grew up with Star Wars and I'm thrilled when someone like

Ryan Johnson with Garth Edwards signs on to new Star Wars films but at the same time, I'm kind of like split on it, because these are such unique voices, and I'd like to see them create something new. Yeah. It's always been like that. People are just going to be

what they're going to be. I mean, you know, some people it's just how you see yourself. You know, and I don't, I know enough not to judge anyone. You don't know what cards anyone's carrying. Like, you know, the guys who made that indie film, because

that's what they could make. and then their real vision was to do this big series and they do a great job of it. It's like, well, that's where you're meant to be. I have a lot of friends, and I'm never disappointed because I think that's where they always saw themselves. Right.

So they're actualizing who they, you know. They actually want to them anyway. Yeah, and if you really talk to those guys, you don't really hear them say a lot. I say those guys, you know, whoever is in that position, they're not going, oh, I miss my indie. Indie was just, that was, Getting me started, you know, that's, but I really do see myself at this level.

I never had that. I never really saw, I always knew I had a lot of these kind of intimate films that I was just hoping to get made and always could try to be aspiring to. Mine's the other way. I occasionally have a bigger budget thing that requires that kind of thing or something I can come aboard and bring myself to. So do you feel like you've ever taken on a project directed a film for the wrong reasons, or have you been able to? I don't, no. No, I feel really clean that way that I haven't thus far. I've just been lucky.

I've never been in a position where I had to. Right. I mean, I've probably been in a position. If I thought in more careerist terms, I probably should have. But I always kind of go the other direction at those crucial moments. I never really, I never did anything in reaction to something else. Right. You know, so I was always just like, what do I feel like I need to do next?

It was lucky, even though there were times when I was definitely sat on the bench and couldn't get financing and a year goes by or two years, that's frustrating. Then you realize, okay, I'm just out of sync. I can't, you know. It is scared to think, like, there are filmmakers out there who were, obviously the environment was much different 10 or 15 years ago. But like I think of a filmmaker like John Sayles, who it's like, I know he's still making movies, but the distribution is, he's gone for them. It's just where. And the audiences too, you know. I don't know if young people are seeking out those indie films the way, you know, we did at certain areas.

They're just sort of a given, you know, they're taken for granted in a way. The culture's gotten just bigger and bigger. Does the size of the screen matter to you? I think it's harder to have an impact with indie films for them to be part of the cultural. What people think are indie, they're really not. You know, if you look at like the Oscar caliber indie films, they're not. The exact film studios used to make. They had a category for the quirky art.

But now those are the indie films. It's like, no, the indie films are one step beyond that. They don't have stars, and they don't have budgets over 10 million, and they don't have that kind of backing and that, you know. So there's this whole realm that's getting largely ignored. So that's the area that I'm worried about the most. Does the size of the screen matter to you? Does it matter to you that you're that,

a lot of the small, these films are now VOD, that's their destination, and that's where they're going to be seen. We knew that day was coming. But, yeah, you know, as a filmmaker, particularly on something like this, you know, I like the intimacy of boyhood being shared by 30 to 300 to 1,000 people. I like that feeling because there's a commonality. It's so much about life and community and family. So we all fantasize about, yeah, I wanted to be seen on a screen.

big so but it's kind of a delusion even a successful theatrical run it's still going to be primarily consumed at a home but I still I'm old school that way I don't I still think of it in a theater probably always well just because I'm sort of programmed that way but I I mean in my heart of hearts sometimes I'm making a film like I remember even during scanner saying well this is kind of a I saw somebody some 20 year old watching it a alone at 2 in the morning in their computer. You know, I just knew that was probably its fate. But I still like the idea.

But I kind of like that, too. Yeah. You know, I never saw Videodrome in the theater, actually. Right, nor did I. I saw it on video, which is perfect. You know, I'm just going way back to an early example. But it's okay. You just want people to watch it.

You don't mind people catching up with it. People have pretty good home systems now. It's not so bad. true um it feels like i mean correct i'm wrong i feel like you have a sense of responsibility and kind of passing on knowledge to the next generation it seems like you've made an effort to to talk to younger audiences and to to talk about how you did it and how it's important to you know try your own path i mean do you feel kind of a responsibility and as elder statesman status where you're at now i'm slow to acknowledge elder statesman i still figure but no i've met enough

filmmakers and I was like hey I saw that film when I was in that some of the ages just get younger and go wow I'm the old guy in the room how'd that happen yeah that's what boyhood's all about time flies you know um I don't know yeah you know I've always felt that connection to filmmakers just anyone getting their films made I think there's that kind of acknowledgement so if I can be helpful or you kind of learn from others experiences or I did tried to so that can be helpful I think the thing I I try to give back the realm I try to if it's called giving back or sharing is in the probably just film history you know like I hosted an 80 series recently in Austin my film society that started 28 years ago

or whatever you know I just showed films from the 80s that I remember when I was first falling in love with cinema I just went 80 to 83 I showed 15 films and just talked about the circumstances of you know what was going on what I was thinking you know yeah so I realized there's a bunch of young people out there who A haven't seen the films haven't seen them on film showing 35 millimeter prints so that's the area I try to concentrate in this really more just watching movies that's where I feel most comfortable right not talking about myself and my experiences so much but really just sharing the film world in general anyway I can contribute there to just general general

love of cinema area that's where I feel most comfortable is baseball still as much a passion and a love in your life as it was as a kid no I mean how could it be you know I mean I really

from the age 20 when I quit playing baseball I really gave it nair a second thought for 20 years you know then I realized oh I had some land I got a pitching machine I just enjoyed hitting but it's not I haven't watched a complete baseball game. Really? No, I'm not super fan.

I know it's represented in my things and it's out there. And I have a movie that actually has to do with guys on a baseball team, but it's really just a swirl of my own past or something, but it's not, I'm not a huge sports fan. Are you generally a nostalgic guy? Do you think back to whether it's... If I am, it's with mixed feelings. I never think there was a better time in the past.

I really don't. like personally or in the culturally. But I find myself thinking that just in this conversation, like I think the 80s and 90s, it was a better time for indie filmmaking. There were all these theatrical experiences and these, you know, it wasn't, it was a little more wide open, a little more,

but it felt shitty at the time. You know? I mean, it did. We never, I mean, filmmakers that are contemporaries in mind, we run each other and we just go, who it's gotten so hard. I said, yeah, we got lucky. Yeah.

By birth order, you know, we ended up in an era got a lot of films made that would never get made today. So I feel nothing but grateful and lucky in that regard. But at the time it wasn't. At the time, it was one big struggle, you know. So that's, you never know what you have, but you hope the culture is moving in the better direction. But in some areas, it just doesn't. Like politically, I'm old enough to go take the optimism of the 70s, as crazy as the 70s were, you know,

all the progress that you felt was being made in general to feel that go the other direction. And I lived through the Reagan 80s where it went the other direction and we're in that world now. So many racial issues, just everything, like the return of just that kind of racism. We just thought that would be drug legalization. It was such an optimistic view of the future. But having lived through it from an adult perspective to see things go the other direction, you can kind of go, well, wow, what would it have lived to, you know, such great cultures as, you know, think of Western Europe in the 20s and 30s, and to realize, oh, we are self-destructing. And to see that from an adult perspective, like, we are going to the dark side. This is happening. What a horrible feeling, right?

So I don't feel that way about the U.S. to that degree. But you do see things, you go, wow, it's really kind of a lot worse. The political spectrum's a lot worse. I can look at, you know, just the way politics operated back then was a lot more productive, you know, a lot more. I mean, now it feels just kind of ugly, horrible. It is. I mean, there are silver linings. I mean, Domo and gay marriage, obviously. Oh, so much.

It's getting, that's what's the weird thing. To know, things are getting better. I mean, it's so much better. So many areas. But then there are these specific things that just kind of drive you crazy. Yeah. you know so I don't know it's a but you realize it's always been like this this push pull two steps forward one back on almost every issue but no we're it's it's it's getting

better in so many very important areas when it comes to like human and you know just extension of rights absolutely I don't know um going back to the the the career for a second I'm curious like are you surprised by the the films that that that has seem to have resonated most with audiences in your own career. I mean, do they jive with what you view as your greatest successes, the ones that others deem your greatest successes? Feels arbitrary, not really. Does it feel like things just come in and out of favor over time,

and maybe in 20 years, suddenly the Newton Boys will be the classic that people didn't recognize at the time, you know? Nothing would make me happier. That film should get re-released, actually. It really should. That was one that was just... It was just... It was sort of...

At that very, you know, that's what's great about films. You have the moment of your making and you're coming out, and then you have your eternal moment. Yeah. And so, you know, any student of film history knows, you know, like, oh, Wizard of Oz wasn't a hit? Right. How could that be?

It's like, it's a little corny. For 1939, but then two years later, you really get the pure sentiment behind it, and it's beautiful. Yeah. But maybe at the time, you know, same with, a wonderful life, same with so many movies and you never know

how something's going to age or connect and win or ever. You know, you just, it's a complete crapshoot. And likewise, the films that are so huge, as we all know, time isn't always good to them. So it's always been kind of fun.

But as a, you know, when people come up and say, hey, I really like when they pick out one of the more obscure titles out of the thing, it's always kind of special when they I really love that or I love that. Last thing for you. I mean, when you look back at, you know, your time on film sets, is that the happiest time?

Yeah. Is it shooting? Yeah. Yeah, it's that relation with, yeah, when I think back on those films, it's really the experience. Yeah, like the final film is, it's almost abstract. I mean, I know it so well, but it's kind of like, that's not, you can't feel a physical thing.

You can feel like something you experienced that you have all these human connections to. And that's the crew and the cast and the vibe that was created for that particular film. That's the absolute best. That's the special, you know, the people you worked with. And, you know, it's kind of like, you know, help people feel that way about maybe people they grew up with or they fought in the war with or they worked with it. You know, you have these kind of special bonds. Sure. So I've been lucky to have that with all these films.

So that's always, the finished film is just kind of what it is. You know, you can't. Well, it's similar to what you were saying. On the last note, in terms of experiencing the film of an audience perspective. As I said, as I started, you know, that sundowns film-going experience, what was so special was, yeah, you felt like you'd been through something with 500 people in that audience and something very profound, frankly. That's pretty cool.

I have a lot of those in my life that I was there, that screening for that. You know, so it's really flattering for me to hear that something I would work on could have that kind of resonance. in someone else's life, but it's hard to relate that. You have to kind of be a part of that. Thanks for your time today. Yeah, really good talking about it. tales that continue to captivate audiences, decades, or even hundreds of years after they

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