Happy Sad Confused - Riz Ahmed

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

You're not going to see a finer film performance this year than Riz Ahmed's in "Sound of Metal". It shouldn't come as a surprise since Riz has been surprising audiences with an amazing assortment of characters in recent years in everything from "Nightcrawler" to "Rogue One". Finally, he's joining Josh on "Happy Sad Confused" to talk about his journey. LINKS! Stir Crazy with Jane Levy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Riz Ahmed delivers another stellar performance in Sound of Metal. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Harowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

Another first timer this week, guys, and one of the best actors out there. If you've been paying attention in the last few years, you know what a chameleon. it is, how he's basically capable of anything, whether it's character roles, whether it's leading man performances, he can do it all. And he is back again with maybe his finest performance yet in the critically acclaimed and justifiably so new film, Sound of Metal. This one's special, guys. This is one of my favorite films of the last year. I first saw it almost like a year and a half ago at the Toronto Film Festival. You never know what you're going to get in these kind of like unknown movies that pop up there, and I was so blown away and pleasantly surprised.

A bit of a character study kind of a film. This is about a heavy, like, a metal drummer by the name of Rubin. He's been dealing with addiction issues and suddenly finds that he is dealing with traumatic hearing loss. And it is his journey of acceptance and self-discovery and just changing his life and also figuring out what's important in his life. That all makes it sound much more medicinal than it is. It's actually super entertaining and just filled with fantastic performances led by Riz.

A great opportunity for him, and he really made the most of it. Thrilled that he's on the podcast today. Riz is a very thoughtful, smart, funny guy. You've seen him in films like Nightcrawler, Venom, The Night of that great miniseries on HBO. And before that was killing it kind of in maybe not obscurity, but less hailed movies, He's kind of more indie films, and I'm so thrilled that he's now kind of operating with the big boys and in the smaller films, too. I didn't even mention Rogue One. What am I thinking?

Of course, he was amazing in Rogue One. It doesn't get any bigger than a Star Wars film. So very happy for Riz that he's getting all the accolades he is so deserving of. I should mention we tape this the day after the madness at the Capitol, this insanity, this horrible situation. You know, you've heard me talk politics here enough probably, but yet another low point and just, I don't know, like many of you guys, I was just filled with despair and sadness watching what these thugs, what these riders were doing to our democracy. So this conversation doesn't really get into that stuff per se, but it is, I just wanted to kind of give it some context, because by the time you hear this, I don't know. I don't know what's happening. Is Donald Trump still president?

Let me know. But, yeah, that's where we were at when we chat it the other day. Other things to mention some cool projects are out there. I should say, by the way, that Sound of Metal is on Amazon Prime. So if you subscribe to Amazon Prime, you can check it out there. Speaking of Amazon Prime, one night in Miami, I believe, is dropping on Amazon Prime pretty soon. You guys should check that out. That's Regina King's directing debut.

She, I mean, it's almost cruel that she is. as fine a director as she is an actor, but she really delivers in this true life story. That is well worth checking out. I recently streamed the third season of Cobra Kai. That was a welcome kind of distraction, a much lighter kind of binge, and I really enjoyed it. That's now on Netflix, a hearty recommendation on that. And I'm psyched like all of you guys, to watch Wanda Vision, which will be out very, very soon. some Wandavision-related content, as it were, coming into my world soon.

So stay tuned for that. I'll keep you posted. Over on the stir-crazy side, a fun new episode up with Jane Levy. I think I teased it on last week's episode, but she is fantastic. She's, of course, the start of Zoe's Extraordinary Playlist. If you haven't checked that out on NBC, please do. She is delightful and was an excellent guest. Always loved catching up with Jane.

And that is a fun episode of Stir Crazy. Well, worth checking out. those are the main events in Josh Harrowitzland. I hope you guys are staying well. I hope you guys are staying safe. I hope you guys are staying entertained. There is a lot of good stuff out there. And I hope you guys enjoy this chat with Riz.

We don't even get, by the way, into his musical career, which is crazy. Because if you know anything about Riz Ahmed, not only is he an amazing actor, but he's got this whole other life as Riz MC. So that's not really dealt with in this conversation, but another time. Oh, wait. I'm sorry. I'm all so scattered today, guys. one other thing that is a fun little thing on this episode. We have a fun little comfort movie

chat. Riz chose a great one. Martin Scorsese's Goodfellas. So if you're interested in hearing about Goodfellas and how that informed Riz's life and career, he really is very eloquent about that too. So check it out. And check out Glenn Kenney's new book about the making of Goodfellas. I talk about it in our conversation, but I'll plug it here too because I recently read it and it's fantastic. Glenn Kenney, great journalist, great reviewer, wrote kind of like the definitive making of the behind-the-scenes kind of look at how Goodfellas was made and its impact and its influence. And if you love Goodfellas, you're going to love this book. So check that out too. Okay, on to the main event. Please remember to review, rate and subscribe to Happy, Say I Confused,

spread the good word, and enjoy my chat with Mr. Riz. Josh, good to see you. You too, man. You're sideways. My sidework? I mean, I can handle it. I can talk to you upside down, whatever you want. Wow, you're so flexible.

Yeah, that's the only thing I'm flexible about. It's good to see a familiar face, man. How you doing? How you hold it up? Not too bad. How about you? Where are you in L.A. right now? I'm actually New York.

I'm New York based, born and bread. Yeah. I'm very super weird over there right now, and it's like just a crazy ghost town. In New York, no tourists. and how into the streets? Does it kind of feel like people are getting on with their lives, or is it like kind of ghost town? No, I wouldn't say it's a ghost town.

Certainly we bore the brunt of it at the start in March and April. That was the super scary time where it just felt like the apocalypse. And then, yeah, I mean, look, numbers are up here like they are everywhere, but it feels like we've settled into some kind of, quote-unquote, normalcy. Are you in London? You guys are in lockdown too, right? Well, I'm not in London, man. I'm in northern California right now.

I'm headed to L.A. actually, soon and feeling a little bit nervous about it, you know. Gotcha. Yeah. It seems like it's a wild time thinking of the apocalypse and then, you know, what happened yesterday as well. Oh, my God. Wow. Wow. So as we tape this for those that are listening, I don't know what the world is going to look like when you guys are listening to this. I don't know who's the president. I don't know what's happening. But we're taping this, obviously the day after this insanity at the Capitol here in the States. And man, I was going to say to you, Like, are you good at compartmentalize? Like, say you were working right now.

Would that be tough for you to kind of like focus up on the work? If like some kind of event like this is happening in the outside world, like have you been in the past on that kind of stuff? I kind of feel like in the past I've tried to separate my life or real life from the life of the story and on set. And increasingly what I'm finding is A, that's impossible. It's a losing battle. And B, why would you do that?

if the universe is throwing you gifts of you know emotional stimuli take it run with it use it in some way you know a scene that's meant to be about you being uh you know annoyed at your dad you could easily swap that out in your mind for being annoyed at your president you know if you if you need it if it's there take it yeah um so i guess i'm kind of like I'm more open to you know what's available when you allow these lines to be blurred whereas before I remember I mean I wouldn't even allow myself to draw on anything in my own personal life for a character or for a scene. I weirdly somehow felt like that was cheating or as though maybe I would exhaust a well if I kind of, you know, draw from the limits of my own experience.

And maybe also on some level I just thought my own experience isn't that relatable. You know, implicitly, I've been taught by the world is a niche experience. Right. I'm an archetypal one. So I would always just do research and draw from the character and the character situation. Now I'm much more willing to bring some of myself and real life to things. And I think that, you know, I'm enjoying that more. When did that shift happen?

Was that on a particular role or working with someone in particular? Or how do you get there? I guess I just felt like I would, I'd hit a bit of a wall working in the way that I used to work. You know, it's interesting because I think there's a different approach in Britain with its kind of history of theater than there is in america with it's kind of you know more an emphasis on film acting and and myzner and um you know strasberg and and all of this kind of stuff whereas in the uk and you know you hear about um british actors like anthony hopkins and their preparation method is about reading the text out loud 250 times yeah you know i mean it works

you know so however you're going to get there it's an amazing way of working but there's that British approach of kind of it's all about the text. You know, how do you rehearse and you sit down and you analyze and break down the text? And all my training was just Shakespeare. I just did one year of classical acting in Central School of speaking drama with Rob Claire. And that was just all, yes, it's all text. It's all Shakespeare. And I guess the idea is that, you know, you don't put yourself in emotional states. You know, feelings are kind of a happy side effect if they happen. That's not the point. And, you know, Mamet, right? about that as well when he's writing about the role of an actor, particularly on stage.

And so I was always coming from this point of view, but I felt like the one thing I wasn't bringing to the table was any of myself. And I guess the reason why that was a comfortable way of working is I'm used to leaving a part of myself at the door in any room that I enter. It's just how I grew up. I grew up between, you know, working class Pakistani household, got educated in, you know, poshia white, you know, upper class circles. So I'm always, you know, always editing yourself and leaving part of yourself at the door. So working in that way, you know, leave yourself at the door, leave your feelings of the door, leave you at the door, you've become this other thing. It's an active self-preservation. It's an act of just sort of like

this is protecting yourself when like the more vulnerable place to be is where you're at now, it sounds like, where you're dangerous to a degree, but it's hopefully reaping rewards and making you a little bit more open to the experience and connecting more with the material. That's the goal. I think so. I hope so, yeah. This film, which, I mean, it boggles my mind, I keep having these conversations with people that, like, I first saw the films at film festivals and different kind of environments we were in, right? Like, I talked to you, like, 15 months ago in Toronto about this movie. And here we are, like, who could have predicted where we would be in these little boxes talking about this movie? I knew we'd be talking about this movie again, because, like, when I saw this one, I mean, you know how it is, like, film festivals.

You never know what you're going to get. You get, like, a film title and a little log on. You're like, oh, I'm hoping for the best. and frankly I got this one like on a screener I remember back then and I was like so pleasant I was like this is awesome like why is this not getting more buzz already and I'm so thrilled we've got in there where like this is getting you and Darius all the all the acoids you deserve um the movie is sound sound of metal and you guys shot this one relatively quickly I mean this is what like four weeks of your life and and yet you put months and months of research into this so I I'm fascinated by that kind of like dynamic where you're, like, spending all this time, months learning the drums and sign language, et cetera, and then it's down. And then you're like, wait, 27 days, 28 days, whatever it is, this is where we're at. Talk to me about, like, once you get to set after you put in all that work, are you just so over prepared that it's, like, ready for the gig? Or does it feel like,

oh, shit, like, this is what it's all about. And I'm, like, feeling the pressure. Yeah, that's a great question. We did shoot it in about four or five weeks, but we spent seven, eight months preparing for it intensively. So for me, the preparation was daily, you know, learning how to drum from scratch and learning American sign language. And it's interesting because I kind of feel like the way we were shooting really lent itself

to an improvisational attitude, you know, even if we didn't really improvise. There was a beautiful, if you written script. but there was a feeling on set that if anything was possible we were kind of living through the experience we were shooting chronologically so that made a big difference

you felt like you were you know it was very lived in it felt very authentic all the goodbye scenes in the movie for example were goodbyes the actor was then getting in the car and leaving set at the end of that scene and couldn't come back so there's this kind of meta layer

of authenticity that Darius is always trying to preserve it's so helpful as an actor but the preparation as you said you know took place over over many many months so I guess you know what that process like that kind of allows you to do and dares you to do is to be so prepared that you can have the confidence to throw it all away and let go which is ideally what you're trying to do in any kind of process of preparing for a role but with something like this where it's like you're going to prepare for seven months and

then we're going to shoot this so quickly and with so many kind of unknown elements that you have no hope of trying to control the process it kind of whether you like or not backs you into that corner which is kind of where you should be which is I have no control yeah I can't even hold into the illusion of control in this process because of how quick it is and because of you know just so many factors that were at play but on some level. it's in your body at that point, you know, the drumming and the signing and it just opens up your body, you know, both those skills kind of, I think, just put me in my body in a different way and allowing me to be receptive to everything Darius was drawing all way.

Were you, so Darius, this is his first, you know, narrative feature, and I mean, that's in the nicest possible way, were you surprised that how well this turned out? I mean, you never know. You know as well as I do. You can feel good on set. You didn't feel like you're connecting, but like until you're sitting in that screening room watching it, you don't know, do you? You know, in a weird way, I just knew that Darius was going to do something special.

And if you've met Darius, and I hope the whole world gets to know and meet Darius, because he's such an inspirational guy who's just obsessed with the creative process and leaves with such a generosity and sense of play and fun. I kind of wanted to be the world's art teacher, you know what I mean? he's uh you knew he was going to do something special because as soon as i met him he just had such a clear vision it was such a bold and ambitious and slightly crazy vision but he was kind of presenting it with such a collaborative spirit right and i think again it's having being so prepared that you have a confidence to let go of control and let the scene tell you what what what what what you are yeah not you

telling the scene what it is. And so he had that rare combination. I've been preparing, you know, the sound designed this for two years and we haven't even started shooting. I'm going to, you know, all this kind of stuff, which gave him the confidence to let people into his process.

And so that, I think that's the rare combo. I find it so fascinating, like, where we find, like, Rubin at the start of this film. So, like, without revealing the entire story, I think this is a drummer who experiences this kind of traumatic hearing loss. but even before we ever meet him, he's gone on a journey. Like, he's, he's, he's an addict and he's a recovering addict. And it's like, I feel like I could almost watch like the story of Rubin confronting his addiction as the prequel to this film.

And that's kind of, it's kind of the unlikely franchise that's. We're going to franchise this silent art movie. No, but I'm curious, like, it is kind of like a story of addiction without like, you know, any heroin needles in it. It's still about that in a way. And that's another fascinating aspect that I feel like is not overly wrought. And we see like these, you know, drug addiction films where it's like really harrowing. And this is just more, again, it just feels more real and lived in because we're seeing a guy that's already kind of lived through this past. Yeah.

No, it was definitely a kind of big entry point for me into the character in terms of, you know, thinking about addiction, this broadest terms, which is about seeking a quick fix, seeking control. you know it's the inability for us for many of us to be able to sit with ourselves to face the void to face ourselves and so because of that we do as we turn to distractions that can you know alter how we feel chemically where there might be shopping addiction a gambling addiction workaholism codependency and when you look at addiction in that broader you know through that broader lens of it being the desire for control and an inability to sit with yourself it really unlocks the whole character And, you know, in many ways, most of us have addictions. You know, our society kind of nurtures them. Makes it, you know, very difficult for us to even have to sit with ourselves. And so, so, yeah, I kind of feel like that, you know, it's not like this character likes drugs. It's like this character seeks a quick fit, seeks control. And so what happens when you take control away from him and give him a problem that he can't fix?

Well, and you've talked about it. I think very, you know, accurately, I hear what you're talking about with that. This is a, it's a very relatable film to this moment because it is about who you are when you're stripped away of your, of what defines you or what you think defines you. And certainly that's something that like, frankly, I face too. Like, you know, I mean, like work defines me to a degree and work changed this past year and all your normal habits change. Do you feel like your work defines you?

does it feel like you've had to look in the mirror and be like who is Riz without without work for sure for sure and I mean and that's what I mean by saying that I could relate to Rubin's you know workahism and his addiction and you know how his workahism gives him structure control and an identity right and when you have that taken away from you who are you you you know are you nothing you nobody you worthless Or ideally, if you can push past that, do you realize that maybe there's a core of humanity that isn't defined by these more circumstantial things, something that we all share? And I hope, light would like to think that Rubin begins to maybe glimpse that other way

of looking at his identity and who he is. But yeah, for me, I mean, it was difficult. I think it's difficult for many of us in terms of just, ironically, if we're lucky enough to be stuck at home rather than having to go out and be front-line workers. You're confronted with this kind of abyss, you know, because we're all kind of taught to measure our worth in productivity, which is bizarre, some kind of Matrix X, dystopia, you know, it's like, and so it's like, yeah, it was very confronting for me, to be honest, it really was. And I think that many people will be able to relate to this film on a day.

deeper level than they might have, because Rubin's journey is a microcosm of what we're all going through as a society in this pandemic, of facing the void and asking ourselves what does really matter. Another thing that defines me for good or for better are the things I love in pop culture, the film and TV. And I asked you to select a favorite comfort movie. I've asked a lot of my guests to do this in the past year. And surprisingly, you're the first to, not the first Scorsese pick, but the first to pick this one, which I think is a comfort movie for many people. Can you tell me in the audience what you selected and tell me why? Yes, so the film that I chose is Goodfellas.

I was just obsessed with this film for such a long time, and I haven't re-watched it in a minute, and I feel like after talking about it today, I'm going to have to. Oh, totally. So, weirdly, the way I came to this film was through a drum and bass track. So in the UK, we have all these kind of dance music. music genres that grow out of Jamaican sound system culture and one of the drum and bass which is a very fast kind of 180 beats per minute kind of music and his track by UK Apache is that British Muslim guy rapping in Jamaican patois and London Cockney with his breakbeats

it's like a very you know London melting pop music and it's this track called original nutter and at the start you've got that Rayliotta sample you know one day his kids from the neighborhood, they carried my mom's groceries all the way home from the store. You know, why it was out of respect, Beck, Beck, Beck, Beck, Beck, Beck, and then this kind of Cypress Hill sample starts, and then the break-bee starts. And I was like, where's that from? And I think it's my brother and my cousin was like, oh, it's this gangster film, you should watch it. And, you know, what's interesting is, you know, you can watch a film on many different levels. You could watch Scarface as kind of like, I want to be Scarface

as a teenager. You can watch a layer and say, wow, whatever. amazing camp kind of B-movie, you know, and still a piece of genius. And Goodfellies is, I think, something that when I first saw it, I saw it, and I was so excited by it, you know, about the glamour and the bravado of these men. And now you watch it as kind of like horrible tragedy, this kind of car crash of masculinity and, you know, need to belong. So it's a film that kind of keeps giving, can keep returning to different points in life and finding things in it.

But in a weird way, I felt like it was portraying a world that I could relate to and understand in just telling the story of kind of immigrants, you know, these immigrant communities that are trying to belong

and carve out some survival for themselves, carve out a way to survive for themselves. And yeah, just have such a close-knit community with these kind of, this juxtaposition. of conservative values and kind of like scrappy they have a code they have their own code in a way and that's admirable to a degree until you realize the dark side to say the least exactly and that's something that I can relate to you know in my community and in my immigrant community and and the kind

of the weird way that people square the circle in their head where kind of moral codes can get you the same things that are designed to kind of preserve you against the outside world can kind of set you against each other you know and concepts like honor being really real and tangible particularly when you know you you kind of you don't even come over to this country their life savings the only thing you're rich in is kind of this cultural capital of honor you know that's meaningful that's something that people die for you know and so I can relate to all these things And I was so excited to see this kind of, you know, it's a white minority culture, I guess you can say, but kind of immigrant minority culture playing place in a stage like this was so exciting. It's something I've always kind of aspired to try and explore with some of the stories, you know, that I've grown up around.

Were you getting into trouble as a kid? Were you, did you almost go down the dark path of Henry Hill? No, not quite Henry Hill, but I think to some extent there was just. there was just a certain level of trouble that you were going to run into and that you couldn't really escape just, you know, I think as a young guy of any age and of any community

or background, you know, that's true. And then it gets amplified a little bit to your certain neighborhoods or communities and, you know, and so yeah, I had some run-ins, I had some brushes and kind of at that time, particularly in the 90s, I think the British Asian scene

was really vibrant, kind of hotbed of of of of of energy and possibility you know culturally a lot of interesting music was coming out this is the track I just described um interesting films being made we kind of had our first celebrities you know um British South Asian celebrities and it was also yeah kind of this explosion of subculture and fashion it was kind of this rumblefish esk world that we had our own parties and our own scene and our own beef and our own gangs and rivalry and and and It was a thing. It was hard not to get swept up in some way.

A little context for if you've been living under a rock for 30 years and you don't know what goodfellas. It is the story of Henry Hill and his life in the mob. And it's, of course, directed by the great Martin Scorsese, written by Nick Pellegi, based on a nonfiction book by Nick Pallegi. It's, by the way, here's a recommendation for your risk if you're not aware. Literally, coincidentally, I had just read this book. There's a great book about the definitive making of.

Goodfell's book that just came out in the last couple of months. It's fantastic. It's the last book I just read. It's called Maidman. It's by a great writer that I know named Glenn Kenney, talk to all the principles. So if you really want to dive deep, it's awesome.

Amazing. I'm right now, dude. Yeah, it was made for this conversation. It's fantastic. So you've, as far as I know, you've never, you haven't been directed. Can I just say one more thing about you? Yeah, please, go for it.

Yeah, yeah. I think it just has one of the greatest scenes ever. Let's get into it, which is Joe Pesci asking Ray Liotta how he's funny. To me, that is a more powerful kind of dead-eyed stare scene than you're talking to me, you know, and taxi driver. I think it's, I think it's one of the best, most exciting scenes ever. Well, it encapsulates everything I think that's great about the film because the film is very, it's actually a very funny movie, a very entertaining movie. And yet it can then turn on a dime. It's that line between comedy and almost horror.

And that's all in that scene where we see both sides of Peschi's character. And it's chilling. He's one of the most intimidating. I've told the story before. I was at the press conference for the Irishman. And he was up on that stage with Pacino and De Niro and Scorsese. The guy that scared the shit out of me the most was Joe Pesci. No, not even a contest.

You wouldn't want to mess with Joe Pesci, man. I'm not after watching that scene. And yeah, that juxtaposition, that tonal kind of like shift between the comedy and the horror, really, and the violence is present throughout the film. And as it is, a lot of spaces work in the soundtrack, you know, when you have that juxtaposition of kind of rock and, you know, just really kind of uplifting vibes of the 1960s party music with horrific violence. So, yeah, I think it just, you know, it kind of occupies so many. different kind of gears and so many different colors of the rainbow in this film um yeah it's just it's a magical crazy movie and it's one of our favorites have you had the pleasure of uh shirning company auditioning for for mr scorsese has it have you come close i haven't no never

have i've never been on the cards for me but i did once meet ray leotr in venice and he was just kind of sat in the corner of this you know bar or whatever at the film festival, looking every bit like, kind of like poorly in a way, you know, you know, can just sat there surrounded by people in his black suit and just went up to him like a supplicant going to kiss his ring and just went like, yo, just wanted to know like Goodfellas is really the reason why I wanted to do this. And he just kind of gently tilted his, you know, at me with the slightest nod and kind of with a flick of his eyes, let me know that. I should leave now.

You read the room and got out of Dodge. A good double feature I would recommend. Do you know Copeland? Have you seen Copeland with Leota and De Niro in it? Oh, man. Here's my second recommendation for you. Really? Okay.

Directed by James Mangold. It's got, of all people, Slice Stallone and actually, like, great acting performance. And it's a great crime flick. So some other things to mention here. Yes, De Niro, of course, is, plays Jimmy Conway, Leota, a career-making role as Henry Hill. Heshi won the Oscar.

You know, his Oscar speech was, it was like five words. What do you say? He said, it's my privilege. Thank you. Got off the stage. Yes. Amazing. Tell me when you win your Oscar and it's going to happen.

You're going to say one five words. Have you daydreamed about it? Is that the shortest? It's actually not. I think there is like a thank you or two. Like there's, but. Thank you. you. Wow. That's crazy. It's my privilege. Thank you. What, gee. It's also up there as one of the

the most prolific uses of the word fuck in a movie. Yeah. 321 uses of that delicious word. Bested by Scorsese's Wolf of Wall Street, by the way. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's why Wolf of Wall Street stuff feels like a such a return to form in a way because it's like going back to that world, isn't it? Yeah. You know, boys misbehaving. And it's just, yeah, I mean, for people who haven't seen Goodfellers, I mean, what else can be telling me? There's this, there's that iconic kind of like steady cam shot. It's the Copa Cabana entrance, right? Yeah, exactly, walking through the kitchen and where you just kind of understand who this character is. And you kind of shift perspectives in a way that's

actually really bold. I mean, there are multiple different voiceovers. Right. in the film. So you are hearing Ray Lottes, Carriz, Amy, he'll tell the story, but also his wife. And you kind of make that shift quite early, but it's, they're not, you know, her perspective isn't obviously set up from the start.

So these kind of new voiceovers and perspectives start entering the film and you hear Scorsetia talk about how he wanted to push that even further with Casino when you start adding multiple voiceovers and you just start inhabiting, you know, seeing the film from all these different perspectives.

Whereas before, it was kind of, you know, more kind of single point of view. So there's all kinds of like bold and kind of wacky stuff happening in terms of how stories being told. Yeah. But we just kind of carried through on this really fun ride. Yeah, because that scene you refer to where essentially that's like Lorraine Braco's characters, Karen's characters, like, entry. She's like her view into that world. And it is glamorous and exciting. and it can be at first,

it just takes you a little while to realize, again, the underbelly of how dark and scary and dangerous this world can be. But you're right, the shifting perspectives is fascinating. Another scene that comes to mind is, spoiler alert,

when Tommy dies, Joe Pesci's character thinks he's going to be a made man. And we cut back and forth from him entering, and then you see De Niro on the phone, in the phone booth losing it. You know, as despicable as these,

characters are by that point you're like you're feeling for them all you really it's kind of uh it's it's an amazing magic trick that that's gorsese does again again and again actually is the way you kind of undercar um violence with comedy right and then you kind of go from comedy back to the violence so it's even more shocking you know that scene where they go to visit joe pesci's mom after just you know having committed a brutal murder yeah And they go there and they just, you know, you have some more spaghetti. And when you're going to get married, when are you going to find a good girl? It's just like, yeah, it's amazing.

And in a way, I mean, I couldn't relate to that. But that sense of double life, that sense of like family values alongside get them before they get us. That was something that was kind of quite real in, you know, some of the environments that I grew up around. And, you know, your parents never really knew the life you were living. They didn't even know you were out of party. It was very kind of traditional, conservative. But out there in the world, it's like, it's just like all bets are off. It's why this kind of stuff's happening.

Who were your biggest influences in terms of like your love of film growing up? Did you have siblings or friends that kind of introduced you to the world of film? Do you remember big influences in that way? Or did you find your own path? I never had like a kind of, you know, someone give me, you know, kind of Austin Wells box there and go, hey, you know, you're going to learn about cinema. It was, you know, I was just the kind of movie lover in a kind of very everyday sense. You know, I just loved Terminator 2 and Robocop and, you know, the first Batman movie and was just, you know, just got into it, you know, quite mainstream movies in that way. But I guess something that shifted things for me a little bit was discovering Laen, the French film.

Yep. And then kind of doing my French, you know, high school. project on it and just starting to watch like French movies a little bit and just realizing oh wow there's all these movies up here and then watching Battle of Algiers and yes and you know that was something just as a teenager that opened up a world for me and it discovered it completely by mistake staying up late one night parents on homes watching TV once on Channel 4 this black and white movie oh it must be in his black and white must be old oh no it's black and white but

it's set now but those characters are like the characters you know in London on a state, but they're speaking in French. Okay, what's going on here? And then watch that film. And I was like, boom, that's what I'm going to do my A-level French project on is that film. And so that kind of shifted things for me a little bit. But in terms of like the people that exposed me to all those films growing up, you know, obviously isn't the day VHS rental. So you'd go down to the local post office to rent video cassettes. And that was the main kind of activity that we had growing up. We go to our cousin's house, sleepover.

We're going to the poster just to rent a film. We, you know, that was, it was always about just renting VHS tapes. And actually, just a huge thing for me was just a nightmare on Elm Street series. Because it was so what we shouldn't have been watching age, like seven and eight, eight, you know, years old. Just horrific stuff. No, it's, it's always that, isn't it? It's always the films that you're like five or ten years too young, ostensibly to see. That really makes the impact for me.

It was like the sleepover when I saw Jaws. And I was like just not old enough or exorcist. And it's like, this has scarred me, but in a good way. I'm imprinted on me. I just remember his bizarre family gathering when like my great uncle and all my uncles and my dad was sat around in a room watching nightmare on it on Street 3 in the middle of the day. And me and my cousin were watching it through a crack in the doorway. I was like, what is this?

Yeah. Did you ever, so jumping ahead a bit, you know, in recent years, I've talked to you related to like kind of these ginormous movies. they don't get much bigger than Rogue One and Venom. I'm curious, like, you've lived a life. You've done a lot of theater, a lot of different kinds of films. Did you ever imagine being in those kinds of movies?

Was that an aspiration, a dream, a bonus? I mean, tell me about sort of where you've landed in terms of like being in that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really, I had pretty low expectations all around, you know, going into this business. You have kind of high hopes and low expectations generally. And for me, I didn't, yeah,

I just didn't think that I would be asked to be in those kind of films. I'd spent, you know, had 10 years of a career at that point doing indie films and enjoying doing indie films, you know, really low-budget films like Four Lions and Shifty and Hill Manors and Road to Guantanamo, things that went to festivals and people saw, I mean, you didn't make a bunch of money, but you were learning and actually I was kind of, I was pretty happy with that, you know, taking on roles in that environment. Yeah. Well, you're working with great, Michael Winterbottom, these are juicy roles. There's nothing to be apologetic. That's a great life. That's a career that many would aspire to. Yeah, it's really creatively fulfilling, but financially

it was, you know, it kind of really pushed me to the precipice a couple of times. I remember at the time which I did night call, I was like, I don't know if I can continue doing this. Wow. You know, you just, you don't make any money often on those, on those movies. And you've got to kind of, you've got to ask yourself how long that's sustainable and whether things are going to turn the corner. And actually, the point in which I got the phone call about Star Wars was just as I was filming the night off. And I was like, wow, I'm doing something like big.

And the night off was the biggest thing I'd ever done at that point. It was the longest shoot and there were multiple cameras and it was filming in a studio. And, you know, it wasn't a four-week shoot. or three-week shoot I was often used to doing three-week shoots at that point so and even after having them the night or you know even after we'd start shooting the night of I didn't think that yeah that was on the cards and so for that reason it wasn't even an aspiration of mine I just didn't really it wasn't really on my horizons weren't that that broad we didn't see that far in a way which is kind of nice because you know you just head down focusing what you're doing but it's

also maybe kind of telling you know in terms of some of the limitations you internalize totally you don't see any of sees people like yourself in those positions you kind of think well okay that's not my part i'm going to be doing something else so now have you gotten greedy now you know what's available now you know that you know that you're playing with the big boys yeah um but you know it's interesting because doing those kinds of projects is such is so different so it was so different to what I used to what I was used to. It was like a whole new world to me. Just the creative process, the way the decisions are made more by committee, the way that, you know, it's a big machine and it's a skill, a technical skill really trying to carve out a space for impulse and

spontaneity in that environment. And it's a valuable skill. Just the rhythm of the work day. There's more waiting around. It's just you start having to kind of cultivate all these technical skills in a way that you might not need to or have to and you're doing a three-week shoot and you're doing tensines a day and you're just rushing through on adrenaline and everything's impulse and instinct. This is very different, you know. You're going to cover the hell out of things. You can't really improvise as much. And so it kind of, I think, open my eyes to the importance of developing more, just more technical abilities. Concentration, sustained concentration.

How do you keep it? Yeah, and even voice work, not losing your voice and, yeah, and stamina and all this kind of stuff. So the next time you dip your toe into that world, which is inevitable, the next $150 million movie you're a part of, do you, is there a certain kind of project you're looking for in that realm at this point, whether it's like a specific filmmaker, a franchise that you grew up with, is there something that that would be hard to, that you would shake? that you would be excited for in that realm after having done a couple of these you know

honestly i mean maybe it's silly of me but i don't think of things in that way right maybe i should think more about okay what's my ideal kind of super big movie to try and be in no don't follow the josh harrowitz career plan you're doing okay on your own but in a way i guess it's it's more of uh you just kind of respond to the things that come your way and sometimes the things that that come your way will give you an idea of how you can do something similar to that but not quite that and right now i'm trying to just think more about where where growth is you know so for me at that point it was massively a growing experience working on those bigger movies and then after having done a few of those i felt like i'd grow more by doing going back to those lower budget

shoot them quickly movies like mogul mogul and sound the metal and and i don't know i'd I guess you don't know exactly where it is until you're presented with a script or an idea and it scares you enough for you to know, okay, I might favor this, but I'll definitely grow in doing that. So that's, I guess, what, I'm trying to follow that a bit more. You just wrapped up a film, I believe, called Invasion. Do you know, do you have another one on the docket? Do you have some downtime?

What's the plan going forward? Yeah, so Invasion, I've just finished with an amazing director called Michael Pierce, whose first film, Beast, is amazing. I would recommend everyone to check it out with Jesse Buckley. And it's, it's, it was, actually, that was definitely growth. In other words, my first time working with kids. Yeah, you're a dad in that? I was my first role as a dad, which was kind of incredible and terrifying and amazing.

And kids were just kind of, they'll make you honest, dude. They were just, you know, they just cut through all the, all the, all the, all the, all the BS and, um, and force you to kind of ride the wave, you know, you kind of go to abandon all your plans and all your illusions of control in a way. So they're kind of a, they're amazing teachers, uh, working with them. So that's kind of the next one. And then, and the next, uh, sorry, sorry, that's the last one that I filmed, but the next one, I think will come out in the States is mogul Mowgli, which is a project that I co-wrote with an amazing first-time director called

Basam Tarek. And that's a super, super personal story. You know, we were talking earlier about being willing to bring more myself to table. That was in a way an exercise for me to force myself to go to the extremes of that and really draw on some of my own experiences and my families and people around me in telling that story. Nice. Well, you know, you're one of the best there is right there. today, man. And I appreciate always, it speaks volumes that we're able to talk about movies like, you know, Venom at Comic-Con, and then we can talk about these films like Sound of Metal. You're doing it right in both spheres. It's all the same in a way. And I'm excited to see what's next,

whether it's the Sound of Metal prequel or your James Bond movie or whatever the hell it is. Whatever road you go down, I'll be there, man. Thank you so much, man. It's such a pleasure talking to you always, bro. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Hey, Michael.

Hey, Tom. You want to tell him? Or you want me to tell him? No, no, no. I got this. People out there. People. Lean in.

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