Happy Sad Confused - Rob McElhenney

Episode Date: February 18, 2020

"It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" never should have made it to the air. And Rob McElhenney surely never should have been running a show with no experience. But sometimes when you throw the rulebook out something great can emerge. Rob joins Josh on this episode of "Happy Sad Confused" to talk about his unlikely path to success, why he's passionate about his new TV series, "Mythic Quest: Raven's Banquet", and what happened to that "Minecraft" movie of his. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now. Today on Happy, Said Confused, it's always sunny creator Rob McElhaney, returns to television with a new series, and it's a mythic quest. Hey, guys, I'm Josh Horowitz.

Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Yes, we're back with a new episode and a new guest, someone I have never, spoken with before, I'm a great admirer of his work. If you love comedy, if you love innovative comedy that kind of reinvented the form, you look, you can look no further than it's always sunny in Philadelphia. What, 15 or so years ago, Rob and a bunch of cohorts created this really kind of DIY sitcom, this down-and-dirty sitcom that surprised a lot of people on the FX channel, the second season they brought in Danny DeVito, and ever since then, it's been going strong, and it's one of those shows that, like, I feel like I need to return

to, I need to catch up on. Like, I watch the first bunch of seasons, and then I forget that it's like always there, and every so often you hear of them reemerging with like an innovation like a couple years ago when Rob decided to gain 50 pounds between seasons. And then a couple years later when Rob decided to end the season with a world-class ballet and showing off his newly buff bod. Like Rob, and again, his collaborators over there are really interesting, and they really push the boundaries of what's expected of so-called traditional sitcoms. And he continues that with a new show.

This is his first new series, actually. His first new, like, real brainchild of a television series since it's always some. primarily because that show is taken up so much of his time. But this new show is called Mythic Quest Ravens Banquet. And as the title suggests, the kind of somewhat pompous title is really the title of the game within the show. This is about a, it's really a workplace comedy in some ways about folks that are developing the newest iteration

of a ginormously successful video game, a World of Warcraft type game. And Rob is at the center of it. He stars in it, and he plays kind of a pompous ass right in the center of this really fun workplace comedy. I've seen the first few episodes. It's great. It's on Apple TV Plus.

Right now, I believe all nine episodes are there for you. They've debuted all of them at once. It's already been renewed for a second season. So there is investment in this. If you feel like, oh, wait, I don't want to get invested in a new show, it's going to come back for a second go-around. And it's Rob, surrounded by a great ensemble, F. Murray Abraham chewing the scenery like no one else can. A really fun show. And this was a really

fascinating conversation. Rob is a very intelligent, thoughtful guy and really interested in hearing his approach to, it's always sunny, and the character choices he's made for himself, and also why he hasn't been able to translate some of that success into feature films. We talk at length about the Minecraft movie that he was working on and was apparently like days, a couple weeks away from going into production, was Steve Carell starring, Rob as the director, and why that, even with the best of intentions, fell apart. So that's fascinating to hear. Yeah, this was a good one. Rob hasn't really done a ton of publicity over the years because it's always sunny has kind of run on autopilot. It doesn't

need publicity. But he, you know, he came to New York a couple weeks back, wanted to get the word out on this show, on the eve of the show's debut. And I'm so glad he stopped by and had a chat. This is a really fun one. Other than that, things to mention in the Josh Horowitz universe, had a chance to catch up with Zoe Deutsch. Of course, she's been on the podcast before. She is always fantastic to talk to. She has a new film called Buffaloed that just opened in theaters and on VOD. You should check that out. That conversation is on MTV News's YouTube channels. I put it up on my social, so you can't miss that. She's always fun to talk to and really fun to to see what she's up to. I mean, I've been talking to her since she made her, basically her film debut.

It wasn't a debut in Vampire Academy, but it was like certainly her first big role. And I've been talking to her ever since and been fascinating to see sort of her trajectory and see where she's going to go next is really exciting. So, yes, catch up on that. What else? If you haven't caught up our Sam Hewan live episode, check that out in the feed. Yeah, lots of goodies for you guys. I hope you guys are enjoying all that Happy Say I Confused has to offer. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to Happy Say I Confused. Spread the good word. And I hope you guys, whether it's always sunny fan or not,

or whether you've checked out Mythic Quest yet or not, this is a really interesting conversation with a thoughtful, funny guy and a true innovator in the comedy space. This is Rob McElhaney. Rob, welcome to my office. Great to meet you. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.

This is where it all happens? By all you mean, just conversation? Yeah, it's pretty magical. You filled the magic? I mean, you've had some serious guests. I feel like there's a hair coming off your microphone. I apologize. That's, you know.

Oh, this is so embarrassing for you. There's another one. That's all my hair. I shed like crazy. Oh, interesting. You've had some, like, serious guests in here. Yeah, now we're trying something different. Yes, and I appreciate that.

I appreciate you. lowering the bar and allowing me in your office. Stop it. I'm a big fan of yours. Thank you. I love the new show. Congrats, man. Thank you.

Mythic Quest. Yes. I mean's Banquet. We recognize that we had great success in having a title that was too long to fit on a poster. Right. Sunny and ridiculous. And then we thought, well, why don't just extend that for the next one? Was it always going to have the subtitle, the Ravens Banquet?

And who is Raven and what's the book? banquet. Okay, so, and that actually has been a point of contention. Is it Ravens banquet? Yeah. Was it Ravens, as in plural, or is it apostrophe S, meaning is it one Ravens banquet? Right. That's what I had assumed. Sure. Raven had a banquet. It's the

banquet of an engorged raven, I suppose, and who would, I don't know, who would want to go to that, or why? Right. No, actually the original name of the show was, you know what, this is the first time I'm actually going to talk about. This is exclusive? We have long, long form, so

can discuss it. The original... 20 minutes on the title, please. Okay, perfect. The original name of the show was HeroQuest. Okay. Now, everybody in the industry

knows that there was a game called Hero Quest back in the day, but it was so old we felt like it really wouldn't be an issue. It turns out it was, and that didn't clear. So we had to come up with another title. And so we came up with,

and I'm not exaggerating, 55 titles, and none of them cleared. And the reason that they didn't clear was because the video game industry is just so massive. Yeah. And then it also extended further outside of the video game and just into games, like board games. And we just felt like, or Apple and Lionsgate felt collectively that we just didn't want to open ourselves up to the certain level of exposure. But then we were also like, guys, we have to title the show something.

Yeah. And so Mythic Quest even didn't quite clear, but not because there was ever a, a game or a show called Mythic Quest. There was another game called Mystic Quest, and they thought that maybe that would pose some issues. So that's when we realized, okay, the entire first series, first season of the show was about this new expansion,

and the new expansion was going to be something ridiculous called Raven's Banquet. So we would call the first season of the show, Mythic Quest, Ravens Banquet. So next season, that gets out of the... That gets it out of the legalities. Solitary, like those two words. So next expansion pack will be like the next season essentially.

Exactly. So next season, which we are in the middle of writing right now, is Myth DeQuest, colon, something else. And then the third season, and then the 15th season, I don't know what we're going to do. But ultimately, it was, we didn't fight back too hard because we felt like the title, it's always sunny in Philadelphia,

was so unbelievably ridiculous. And now it's become kind of part of the charm of the show. And people just call it sunny. So we assume that people just call this MQ or Myth DeQuest. Yeah, this is your thing now. This is your brand is unwieldy titles. So how's the press tour going? Because this is odd.

I mean, essentially for the last 15 years, you've been talking about one thing. Yes. And often with other people. And obviously it's still a collaborative show, but you're front and center. Yeah, has it felt like a kind of a different kind of experience now that you're out front on a new project. Yes. I mean, honestly, we haven't done this amount of press on Sunny, I mean, ever. We just did with this press tour yesterday that, um, that was insane. It was insane. And I'm not by no means complaining because we asked for it. We, we wanted it. But I've never taught, I've never been

so sick of my own voice and very cognizant of the fact that like, you know, there are other people in the room who are listening to me say the same things over and over and over and over again. And you realize you talk to other actors and other writers and they say, oh no, that's the gays, right? Yeah, this is the norm. And I just realized we had never done that on Sunny because when Sunny first came out, nobody cared. Nobody wanted us on any of their shows, and rightfully so. Nobody had heard of the show until four or five years in.

And then by that time, like season six or seven, when it started to hit, then we felt like, well, the show didn't really need it anymore, right? And it wasn't because we were such a massive hit. It was just that we had hit the niche audience that we knew we wanted and loved. And that to expand beyond that probably wasn't going to. going to happen because that's just not the nature of the show. Right. So then I never did talk shows.

I never did. I didn't do a ton of podcasts. I didn't do, I mean, podcasts actually didn't even exist at the time. And that's how long we've been on. And so I just kind of felt like, you know, if we're going to launch a new show, that we should put, we should put everything into it. Does it feel like, I mean, I'm somewhat surprised in like, you know, when I started to like look at your work outside of Sunny.

Like, it's been relatively, you could mean, correct me if I'm wrong. Like, it sounds like there have been some difficulties in getting. other projects going. And we're going to get into Sunny and kind of like the unique nature of that. It's obviously like that was so wholly original and strange the way it all happened. But have you been surprised over the years that it's been tough to get feature directing, other series, things like this? I mean, Sonny takes up a lot of your time, but you've attempted other things.

Sure. Yeah. In the beginning, Sunny took up because we had no idea what we were doing. And even though we were only doing 10 to 15 episodes a year, because we were show running and because I was also in the show and then also editing and we were still finding our footing for many, many years, it took up a good chunk of the year if not 10 to 11 months so we didn't really have time to do anything else

then solely but surely we were able to come up with a more efficient way of doing things and then I was like okay let me branch out and do some other things and I was getting offers to write and direct movies that would be very similar to Sunny. I had a couple of offers for movies that have since come out over the years. And I just didn't want to do something for the sake of doing something. I recognized that was coming from a place of extreme privilege because I had a TV show that I owned that was on the air for seven or eight years.

I didn't have to do those jobs I didn't want. And I remember even talking to my agent at the time and then being like, you know, you're passing on everything. And I was like, you know, it's not even that I have this like incredibly discerning or discriminating taste. It's just the stuff that I'm getting is just garbage. And I don't want to work just to work. And I learned very early on from talking to people that that idea of like a springboard project just doesn't work. You have to love what you're doing.

You have to. You can't do something just because you think it's going to get you something else because it's too much work. And then ultimately it can also backfire where people see it and they go, well, that guy's terrible. So I kind of just held back on that. And then there were other TV projects, but I couldn't. act on them. So I was able to write and produce, but I couldn't act and we couldn't act on them. And we have a very specific comedic sense, right? And so it's like we would try to write things and then we would shoot a pilot and like, you know, it's not that we didn't hire great actors

we did, but they just didn't do what we did. And I remember at one point I was directing a pilot that I wrote or co-wrote with Charlie. And we thought it was really funny, right? And we hired and went through the casting process and we hired a really great actor but he wasn't necessarily known for being very funny but you know it was the studio loved him and we were like

okay we can make it work and I remember on the first day the scene was that he was like being humiliated right and I was like okay so what's happening here is like you're being basically like torn down you're being humiliated and he was like okay yeah but why is that funny and I was like I turned to Charlie

and I was like oh no You're not with us there. I turned to Charlie, I was like, I don't know what we're going to do, man. Like, he just, like, it's not, I don't know how to give somebody direction if they don't understand why being humiliated is funny. He was more of like, I'm a star, you know what I mean? And so we realized like, ooh, that's not going to work. So then I went from that to the last three years, I was going to make the Minecraft movie. Right.

Yeah, to write and direct the Minecraft movie. And that was actually really pleasant experience almost all the way through up and to the point where it wasn't. This is great, this is great, it's great. Oh, gosh, it's horrible. Yeah, and look, look, all due respect to Warner Brothers at the time.

I mean, it was a massive swing for them. Sure. And there was this executive there who was the head of production named Greg Silverman and he was such a champion of mine and a really sweet guy. And I don't know if you ever met Greg. So he was running Warner Brothers for a long time.

And I remember they were looking for somebody that would have like a different take on this on this on this mass potentially massive franchise and the only thing i'd ever directed were uh episodes of television and uh you know a couple shorts here and there um to kind of prove my worth in the visual effects realm because i just like you know your brother and eddie like i'm i'm i'm working tv but i'm all so interested in some of the same movies that i'm seeing posters for right in your office and i'm like okay but if i'm going to get a chance to do that i have to kind of prove myself like i did with sunny so i started I'm making these shorts and then paying money

to have visual effects companies come in. And I took this short and then a take that I had for the Minecraft movie. And I went, I was like, there's no way they're going to give me this job. And I pitched it to the people from Minecraft and then I pitched it to Warner Brothers and they hired me.

I couldn't believe it. Are you comfortable saying what your take was? Because I've had lengthy conversations with my nephews trying to explain what Minecraft is to me and I still don't honestly get it. So I'm just curious like what a Rob McElhanie version of Minecraft would have been. Yeah, so I, no, I'm comfortable talking about it because fuck them at this point.

You know, I loved playing the game, and I love playing it with my kids. And I basically, and Lego had just come out, and Chris and Phil to me are like, I mean, they're like comedy gods, right? So I sort of looked at it the same way, which is like video games that I've seen, video game movies in the past, most of which don't work. And I think part of the reason they don't work is because there's already a fixed narrative. The experience of gaming is that you're a part of the narrative to a certain extent, right? Like you're controlling what's happening in the game. And then all of a sudden you see it up in movie form and you're like, well, now I'm just seeing. I'm a passive, right?

And so I thought one of the greatest assets to Minecraft was that they didn't have a fixed narrative, that it was an open world experience. And all you were essentially given were the building blocks to do whatever you want. And so it was one of those games where you're, Of course, it's a much younger audience. I thought, what an amazing tool, much like Legos, right? Except now you're talking with infinite possibilities, because it's digital, to give to kids, and not just kids, but any person who feels powerless, right?

And kids mostly feel powerless. All day long, they're being told what to do, how to dress, do your homework, go to bed, and I felt like that could maybe extend to other people. And I think everybody feels marginalized to a certain extent. that you feel as though your boss is telling you what to do all day long, or your spouses, or you just feel like you don't have this sense of agency over your own life. And the game gave you that. And I thought, man, that's a really profound experience.

And I think that's why it's really hitting all over the world. Because these kids, it might seem silly, but these kids, and the graphics were awful by design because who cares? The most important part was that you were given agency over your own experience in the game. And that's sort of what I started with. I was like, well, that's like the thematic component. And I remember I spent some time up at Pixar. I became friends with some of the guys up there, Andrew Stanton,

who's this incredible director and became a good friend of mine. And they asked me to come up and be a part of one of their brain trust sessions, which is, wow, like what a learning experience. Whoa, heady room. And you're really learning how these movies get made and what a collaborative process. but what Andrew always said was he basically breaks every single movie he's ever worked on

into one maximum, one very short maximum. And no matter what, he can always come back to that. Right, if he's lost at any point in the film, what's our... Exactly.

And it should be that simple. It shouldn't be two sentences. It should be one sentence. It should be a few words. And that's why those films, by the way, work on the massive level they do because there's a simplicity

of clarity of purpose, even if you're not... cognizant of it the filmmakers are. Yes. And then he challenged me and was like, go back and go figure out, go to all your favorite movies. Right. And figure out what that maxim is. And by the way, it

might be different from what Zemeckis was intending, but that doesn't matter. Sure. What matters is you got out of it, right? Like that's none of your business anymore. That's another lesson I've learned. But as long as you have that ballast, right? And so I came up with what that

was for me. And then I pitched that to Warner Brothers. And then I pitched a very simple story about people taking agency over their own experience in this, in this digital landscape. And they went for it. And man, like, talk about really like putting your balls on the line, right? Like Greg Silverman was like, this is a $150 million movie, right? And yet I really felt supported all the way through. And we got to the point where we had a script that was in pretty good shape and you know how it works. They're always rewriting. But we had a production team. We had an art department. We had a visual effects house. You had dozens of people working on. We had Steve

Corell signed on to Star in it. We had stages booked. And it was two weeks before the holidays and someone sends me a text. They say, hey, Greg Silverman is leaving Warner Brothers. And I was like, oh, that's a bummer. I mean, he's a really good friend of mine. I really love him and this shows you haven't gotten Hollywood that you're not, your first impulse is not, what's going to do to me? No, I wish him great luck. I don't know what the situation was. He seemed happy. He was going to go off and produce. And I was like, oh, okay, I'll give him a buzz and, you know, say thank you for everything and then I'll get back to work. Well, that's not really the way

the movie business works. No, new leadership has their own ideas. And that was, and really that was it. Like, and again, Toby who runs, I don't know if he still runs the studio, but he ran the studio, ran the studio then. He was actually very gracious. And, and he never actually really said, I don't believe in you or you can't do this. It just slowly died on the vine. And I don't think it was, I'm saying, I'm not saying this because it's, I'm saying it publicly. I do say this privately too. I don't, I don't harbor any resentment. I get, I get it. I get the way that it works. Right. It's like he comes in and I'm not his guy, right? I was Greg's guy and and he had a different vision for what the studio was going to be and so it didn't happen

but but the thing that bummed me out was that it was three two and a half years in my life and we were a month away i was a month away from moving to vancouver to start prep Steve was already locked in his deal was done like we were making the movie bags were packed bags were made oh yeah we had we had a house rented that the kids were going to come up to Vancouver and all of a sudden it wasn't happening and I was like wow that's a that's a real really important and valuable lesson that when you're when you're working in this could happen at any point sure but with with with with these kinds of numbers and this kind of scale 150 million dollars which is what we were budgeted for it can fall apart at any moment and so unless you

either a truly have the power and ability to not allow that to happen which like three people have right yeah um then then you just have to live in that mystery and so you really really truly better love the process and i did enjoy the process but i didn't love it enough to do it again well it's funny i mean like as i'm sure you are extremely cognizant you have had and your collaborators have had such a very unique strange experience in like i mean i quite like what you guys did with sunny and it happened a few years before but the south park guys kind of like they created their own small thing and they were for whatever reason timing place etc were given insane autonomy and ever since then they kind of like exist in their own universe i mean fair to say

that's what you guys have had the luxury of experience yes yes well so what i found is that i certainly don't um i don't i don't have that level of autonomy and privilege in the movie world again very few people do so i don't expect that's no winner spielberg exactly uh but i do have it in the television space. And so I was like, well, okay, so the Minecraft thing was over. And I was really bummed, but mostly because I wanted to do it. I mean, it was just fun. It was really fun to live in that space.

But I thought, well, now I have to see something through again. And I remember it reminded me of Sonny, which was, you know, it was, people ask me all the time, like, oh, it just happened so fast for you. And I'm like, no, it didn't. I mean, I was 25 or 26. when we started sunny, but I didn't go to college and I moved to New York when I was 18. So from 18 to 25 or 26, I was struggling.

That's a long time. And I was fortunate enough to be in the mix going on auditions and not getting jobs and not getting jobs and not getting jobs and not getting jobs. And I just got to a point where I was like, I need to see something through all the way through. And the only way I know how to do that is by actually writing something,

actually shooting something, learning how to cut it, and then making it. And I don't know if it's going to be a thing, but it'll be done. And so that's what we did. And so then cut to 12 years, 13 years later. And I'm like, well, I'm in the same weird spot where I just got these major disappointments. And so the only thing I know how to do is just see something through. And that's when we had this idea for Mythicles.

So does the video game world influence like that? I mean, is there any connection between Minecraft and being in that gaming world and wanting to kind of delve into this video game developing workplace, comedy? Well, interestingly enough, we were approached by Ubisoft, which is one of the biggest game companies in the world. And they said, hey, we love Sonny. And we want to do a show set in the video game world. Are you interested? And I said, fuck no. I mean, and I meant it. I was like, no, I'm done. I just came out of that with Minecraft. I want to do the exact opposite. I want to think about a video game for five years. And they said, well, look, will you just come to Montreal

and visit our studio? So I was, I never been to Montreal, free first class trip to Montreal. I'll take it. thinking I would just drink my way through Canada for a while and have a good time. And I got up there. Poutine. Oh, and I had a ton of poutine and I had a ton of booze. And Montreal is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. So I go to this game studio and I just had an incredible experience talking with these people. And I just knew almost immediately that it was a great environment to put a show into.

And so much of that was because I spent a lot of time talking to these incredibly passionate, intelligent, creative, driven people who all had a common love which was games and making games and that was the only thing that they shared in common and that's what makes for the best shows. And doesn't hurt that it's like this backdrop that like has

kind of been unexploited for the most part and yet it's a gazillion dollar industry, the industry beyond movies, beyond anything. Yes. And like no one's been able to crack it like generally speaking, as we said, in adapting games, let alone a behind the scenes kind of thing. I mean, you could go Silicon Valley in an abstract kind of maybe tangential sort of way. Yeah, well, the way that it was actually even more than that, the things that I had seen in popular culture

and that we've all seen over the course of the last 30 years really took a cynical tone. I mean, it was like all so like, it was just deriding the community themselves. And there was just always that stereotype of the nerdy kid, you know, playing games in his basement. then you would just hear about the sort of toxic elements to the community that, you know, they would hear GamerGate and whatnot. And if you're not associated with the community, those are the things that were the headlines, right? And then you would, you would think, oh, it's just like gamer bros or guys playing Madden or, you know, or then it was the nerd, like the dorks, right, that were playing the World of Warcraft or whatever. And I thought,

first of all, that's just, A, it's not true, right? I mean, this is a massive, massive industry. This is everybody on the planet. No, everybody on the planet. And then I heard this stat, and honestly, this stat really, really drove at home for me. And I remember talking to Charlie about it. I'm like, this is why this is going to be so fun to write. Grand Theft Auto, the series of Grand Theft Auto, has made more money than Star Wars, the franchise of Star Wars. And I was like, no, I heard that.

I was like, well, that's not right. And I looked it up. And sure enough, that's including merchandising. Grand Theft Auto has made more money. It has made more money than Pixar sold to Disney. Whoa, right? And so, okay, beyond the scale of it, everybody knows who George Lucas is.

Everybody knows who Steven Spielberg is, right? Could you name two? No, anybody that worked on Grand Theft Auto. You don't know, right? You better believe it drives those people insane. And rightfully so. Rightfully so. I feel like everything you need to know about your character

is that it's spelled in, but it's pronounced ion. Yes. What do you enjoy about writing and performing this guy? Well, it's kind of like Sunny, right? Because people are like, oh, isn't it great that you're nothing like your character? And I'm like, well, I'm exactly like those characters. I mean, the thing about Sunny that works,

I think the thing that works about any television series, I would say, I'm sure it can't extend into movies, but the thing about TV is that you're doing it over and over and over and over again. So it's impossible to distance yourself completely from the character. You're still the human being that's playing it, right? And then the writers start to write to what you do best. And what you do best is still an extension of yourself.

It's just the worst versions, or the best versions, whatever it might be. You know, like the heroes get to play, like the most heroic version. You know, I'm looking at a poster of Kurt Russell. And like, you better believe that there is an aspect of Kurt Russell, that's snake, right? Like he, right? But then also in real life, he's not really that. Right. But he can be that.

So with Sunny, we just basically took the most ridiculous and awful aspects of our personalities. And then we just put them on blast. And then it gives you this opportunity to sort of exercise your demons of vanity or narcissism or anger or frustration or rage. And then it's, you know, cut. And then you can go back to a normal life. And in some ways, it's become so cathartic that it helps you become a better, person outside of the job because it's like you're exercising yeah exactly you're getting it out of your system it's like going for a five mile run if you're frustrated if you know at the end of the run

you're going to not be frustrated right but you're not going to be as angry so it kind of extends into in the mythic quest where I'm like well sure this guy's insanely egomaniacal vain narcissistic and and am i those things well yeah there's an aspect of my personality of course there is I mean, I'm doing, look at what I do for a living, right? It's like, look at me, look at me, look at me. But I, but those are, to me, the worst angels of my nature, right? And so I want to express them in a way that's, like, constructive and fun, and then ultimately funny, and then leave it there at the stage and then go home to my kids.

One of the things, aspects I like that you guys kind of delve into the show is you have this character who's like this young gamer. What's the character's name? Pouty Shoe. Right. Who, like, wields this insane power because he's reviewing these guys. games from probably his bedroom, wherever, and as you well know, we all know, these people really do exist, and they do have a lot of power. The part that I find interesting is, like,

as you all know, like, in recent years, there's this, like, whole phenomenon of, like, fans feeling entitled to dictating where their beloved property goes. Like, I know best what the next Star Wars movie should be, the next, you know, season of my favorite show. Where do you stand on that on like sort of like the fans like should fans lay back and enjoy or do they have a part in the process for you as a creator yeah i think i have a different perspective than i hear a lot of um some of my compatriots having i i i welcome it i truly welcome it now i have not felt the vitriol in the way that i see you know damon uh and and and and and ryan johnson you know and so again i'm coming from a completely different perspective i will say though um that

that I appreciate it. Look, all day long, part of my gig is if I'm doing it correctly, right? I'm not a painter. I'm not sitting by myself in a room painting by myself. I'm not playing the guitar and writing a song by myself. I'm working with other people to collaborate to make something. So all day long, I'm in a room with writers.

I'm in a room with actors. I'm in a room with art directors and directors and my job is not to get what I want. My job is to listen to everybody's ideas and then be the arbiter of what winds up going into the show. And I think you're really limiting yourself if you're closing yourself off

if you are so insecure that you believe you're right all the time, right? And I feel like I'm just not talented enough to do that. And I truly believe that. I'm not saying that to be humble. I think that one of my best skills is hiring the best people and then listening to them.

And then having also the, I do believe I have enough confidence in myself and in my vision of what I'm looking for to either say, you're right in this moment and we're going to do that. But also, actually, I heard you, I understand, but I believe you're wrong and I'm going to go with my gut on this one. And that's my gig. Well, and it makes you defend your argument more, justify your side.

And that can only make, hopefully, that you're creating stronger. Yes. So when I get feedback from fans, I feel the exact same way, right? Or if I read reviews or criticism or things that people are saying or it does, it truly doesn't bother me if people, especially because most likely to come from a place of love. Right. And they want to, they want their version of it, right?

And sometimes I really will hear it out and take it out and take it into account and then adjust what, what I'm doing. But not because somebody told me to do it, but because. I was open to the fact that they might be right, right? The only thing that I have no time for are opinions from people who aren't really making an effort to try to understand what we're doing and just want to be angry, right?

And there's a difference, and it's obvious what the difference is. So you have a character like Pouty Shoe, and it's really fun and funny, but it's true, right? That there are people out there that these billion-dollar industries are relying on positive reviews from these kids And everybody thinks, like, well, that's unfair. I don't think so.

I mean, if you are targeting a certain audience and you have the voice of that audience who's saying, I don't enjoy this, well, look, man, you have to at least take a look at why that might be. And in the end, in the end, you might say, I get it, I've heard you out, I don't care, I'm going to do it anyway.

That's the process. So I want to go back a little bit. I mean, everybody knows that knows anything about you and Sunny. They all know, like, the mythic story of Sunny by now, the, you know, $200 pilot, how you guys kind of, what it was in reaction to, all of that. Part of what I'm fascinated by was, like, how old were you again when you started making Sunny? So when we first made it on our own?

Well, I guess what, FX bought it, when you started to make it. 26. Okay. 26, your showrunner, with, fair to say, no experience running a show. at the time was ignorance bliss did you feel in over your head what was that first year like for you running your own show I definitely didn't feel in in over my head I feel like um well first of all I had great partners and that was really important if I was really out there on my own I don't know what my experience would have been but I had great partners right but beyond that I do think that it was a luxury to almost get it at that point in my life because anybody who's been a 25-year-old man, right? And now actually looking back with the lens of now

of a complete different experience, which is a 25-year-old white man, right? Seriously, at that time. And you don't realize that you have this tremendous amount of privilege. And it's only in the last five years, seriously, where you're now looking back on it and you're going, oh, wow, right? Like the innate sense of entitlement I had.

I was just not even thought of. And by the way, just as a diversion for real quick, I feel like there's a great resistance to hearing privilege from a certain portion of the population. I will say this. I understand the resistance as well, because I think when somebody first said to me, well, you have this privilege, my first response is, fuck you. I knew nobody. I knew nobody in New York, and I moved here by myself.

I didn't know anybody in the entertainment industry. I grew up poor. I had a great family. I had great schools. But nobody gave me opportunities. I made them for myself, right? And there is some truth to that. However, as you get a little older and you look back,

and if you have people with compassion who are not trying to make you feel bad, but just trying to get you to understand, right? And you look back and you go, oh, right. But this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened, and I was able to do this, and then I was able to do this, just by a function of my birthright, essentially, right?

And so... Bottom line, you're a black woman with the idea for Sunny 15 years ago? Doesn't happen. Doesn't happen. And I absolutely recognize that. But I will say that I also recognize the resistance to it. And we have to be compassionate to recognize that everybody's struggling, right?

And that hopefully in that struggle, you're recognizing that you're not the only one struggling. And some people are struggling even more. And for as hard as it was for me, it was impossible for other people. Okay, so beyond that. at 25, I had this, you know, your 25-year-old man, you're just like, I can do anything. I will do, I can do anything. And then it's not till later, you look back and you're like,

oh my God, I was woefully ill-prepared for any of that. But my bravado, like, pushed me through, right? And I was also continuing to wait tables at the time, so because they didn't pay us enough money for me to quit waiting tables. So to direct the pilot, they gave me off for two, weeks, one week of prep and one week to shoot it. And then I went back to waiting tables because I didn't know if this was actually going to work. So there was a sense of humility that was also imbued upon me. And so in a lot of ways, it was a blessing that happened so young.

I don't know if you talked to death yet about the weight gain and weight loss at this point, but as somebody that's always fascinated by this kind of stuff, I have to at least touch on it. Sure. So was that also, okay, so again, everybody knows this, just to put it out there, you gain, what, something like 60 pounds? Later on, you not only drop it all, but then turn yourself into this, like, insane Adonis that can do a world-class ballet sequence. I guess my question is, is that to test yourself? I mean, part of it is, I would imagine, look, you're doing a show for 5, 10 into 14, 15 years,

and you're just trying to, like, keep it fresh and entertain yourself. But there has to be something also. I mean, this is a personal journey. This is a personal test on yourself. As you kind of look back on those choices, what do you think, I don't know, what do you think that's about? Well, no, I think you hit it right on the head,

which is that we're always trying to stretch and do something different, right? And again, this is coming from a place of incredible privilege that we've been doing it for so long that we now look at it, not only, okay, if we're going to keep doing it, like, why are we still doing it? Right. And ultimately, we always say, we'll still do it if we're having fun, if we still has something to say, and that the audience is still there.

And all of those, we just keep checking those boxes every year. And a part of the reason that it's still fun for us is, and also part of the reason I believe that the audience still keeps coming back is that we're doing, we're trying to do different things. It still feels like the same show, right? We're not destroying the foundation of what we've built, but that it feels fresh and new. And then beyond that on a personal level, that I also use the show. as an opportunity to do things that are just interesting to me. And that's one of the great things, by the way, about when people say, you know, like, oh, you're on TV or you're famous or whatever, what is that like?

And I'm like, truly being famous and the level of fame that I have, which is like, you know, lower, on the lower scale of things, right? But I have the kind of the best version of fame where I don't get stocked by paparazzi. It's mostly just people coming up and saying how much they love the show. and then you take some photographs on, you know, people's phones. And then beyond that, you know, I'm married, right, with kids. So it's not like I'm out there partying and, you know, like, meeting people and, like, you know, like, it's, I live a very boring lifestyle. So what are the true advantages?

The true advantage is opportunity. You get to meet the most amazing people and do the most amazing things. And, you know, historically, the thing that fame unlocks is that people will say yes to you more often than not, right? And traditionally people have taken advantage of that, and we're seeing the repercussions of that. People are saying yes and yes and yes, when they really don't mean yes, but you have so much power and influence that they have to.

And so, but the virtuous, or at least optimistic way of taking advantage of that, is that you have these opportunities to do really amazing things, positive things, and then also just to meet the people you've revered your whole life or wanted to work with or are fascinated by. They'll take your call. They'll meet with you, right?

And those are the kinds of things. I mean, you have that right here, right? With the podcast. This whole thing is basically just a boondoggle to let me meet people I admire. Yeah, absolutely, right. And that's what I, and so that's just become an extension of that, right? Where I get to just, I thought it would be cool and fun and different to change my body.

Like, just treat my body as if it was like a piece of clay and I was going to like mold my body into something. Were you sure you were going to be able to lose the weight when you gained it? Yes. Just knowing yourself and talking to physicians and just like knowing your own temperament that you had that discipline. Well, it wasn't even discipline too. I mean, and I make sure that I'm as honest about this as possible is that my metabolism is just very fast.

It always has been. It's a genetic advantage that my family has, right? And it, or depending on what you're looking to do, it's not always an advantage because if you are actually looking to, like when I was a kid, I was so skinny and so small and I would get the shit kicked out of me. Like, that was a very distinct disadvantage. I was a terrible athlete because I weighed 110 pounds when I was a senior in high school, right?

But as I got older, it presented a lot of advantages. So, and I recognized that not everybody has that. So I knew when I gained it, it would be harder to gain than it would be to lose. Right. And to gain it, I was, you know, just consuming thousands and thousands of calories a day, and then to lose it, I just stopped doing that.

Did Max coming out have the effect that you hoped it was? Did it broaden the audience? I mean, you know, you come from an interesting background that your mom, it's well-known, you know, left the family, ended up coming out and starting a new life. I would imagine there's connections to that. But, I mean, you know, having that sensitivity, the last thing you want is to do a storyline like that

and turn off the LGBTQ community. It sounds like that didn't happen. No. But we're prepared for that. No, in fact, I think it was the opposite effect. I mean, I think what we weren't, what I was personally not really aware of was how

how large a portion of our viewing audience was there already there already because we were always teasing the fact that Mac was in the closet and I remember I didn't realize the impact that maybe it was having on people until

and this is one of those cases where I listened to the audience one of the seasons Mac comes out of the closet and then at the end at the very end goes back in, right? And we thought, okay, if we want to keep that gag going, I got to go back in the closet and, okay, that'll be funny. Well, people didn't find it funny.

They were upset, legitimately upset. And not like screaming or yelling or fuck you or any of that. It was just like, I think people were hurt. And I didn't think that people were watching Sunny for the reasons that it turns out that a lot of people were watching Sunny. And it wasn't one or two people. It was thousands of people. I know that because I was getting hit up on Twitter and Instagram about it.

And I thought, wow, maybe we have a bigger responsibility to at least be a little bit more compassionate to the experiences of all of our viewers, but specifically this particular subset that are watching the show for a very specific reason. And it wasn't because, and this would be destroying the show, if Matt came out and then all of a sudden became a completely different character. Right. That we thought we don't want to do. And that would be way more offensive than what we wound up doing, which is that Matt comes out of the closet finally and is just as repugnant and just as much of an asshole as he's ever been, if not more, now because he can use that card whenever he wants. And I'm telling you the response we got back from the community, because there was some reticence. I remember people saying like, I don't know, like, I don't know if this is the right way to go. Maybe we should adjust him a little bit. But the overwhelming response from the audience of the LBD. G-G-TQ audience was, yeah, thank you. This is because we want representation.

We don't want to change. In all forms. Like they want authenticity and nuance. They don't want caricatures. Exactly. Exactly. And you were showing a different side. And we were showing it.

That's exactly right. And so there was one particular episode where the character came out. And then the following season, again, just doing something different and a tonal shift. I just, I learned how to do a four and a half minute contemporary dance. to add that to the list of qualities on the resume going forward. So where are you out right now? So it sounds like you're writing season two. Yes.

Sunny, as far as we know, is continuing for the foreseeable future until you guys collectively decide that was good. Yeah. I mean, we just don't approach it. Look, I just don't think TV shows are supposed to end. I really don't think they're supposed to end. You're the gun smoke philosophy. When was the last time you heard somebody say, wow, like that was. the best ending to that show.

Maybe Breaking Bad, right? And yet, even with Breaking Bad, and I remember because, you know, people hated the end of the Sopranos, right? But also, the thing about the Sopranos was that you didn't quite know exactly. It was you were, it was up to you, right? And we're still talking about the end of the Sopranos. Right. I love Breaking Bad, and it had to end the way that it ended, right?

I don't hear anybody talking about the end of that show. I hear them talking about the show itself and how much they loved it and rightfully so. but it just feels so finite and TV series and again those are dramas but speaking of comedies like the greatest sitcom of all time from my perspective is Seinfeld and you know the final episode

even though Larry wants to talk about how much he loves it which is fair it's his show I did not love it and part of the reason I didn't love it was because they were ending a show in a way that didn't feel like it was the show because they were right they were trying to to hit every character, right? But that didn't feel like an episode of the show.

But beyond that, it was the end. And I didn't want it to end. You started the show, I didn't start the show when Jerry met George and met Elaine. Yeah, there was a history. Right, already there. Right, so Sunny starts, and we're already there. We're this bar that exists.

So why should it end in a way where people go, oh, and now what, it's the end? No, those people should exist somewhere at all times, right? So, and I was talking to Larry David, about this one time. He said, don't ever end your show, ever. Never do a final episode. By the way, you see what he's doing with Kerr, right? Yes, he takes a couple years off, comes back, come back, and like, you never know what's going to happen, but you know for a fact that they'll never be like, okay, this is the definitive end, because I think it robs people of the experience

of why they love it, which is that this in some fucked up alternate universe is actually still happening. Yeah, these characters are living and breathing, and it's kind of back to, like, in a weird way what you're talking about Minecraft, this like open world thing where like this world just exists and you feel a part of it. In Minecraft there are participants, but here you're, there's something comforting about knowing like that, yeah, Larry's always out there getting its arguments. Exactly, exactly. And so there's this weird human, like innate desire to want closure because it's like a control thing because we don't have it in our lives, right? And so we think we want it to end.

so it's going to feel satisfying but then we're not satisfied when it ends and it's like I don't know I don't know how really we want to get into it maybe it's like fear of death or whatever it is but like it's just that like control like oh no it has to end so I can close that door in my head

but then it's over and you don't you don't get that satisfaction so I can't say for sure what we're going to do but I highly doubt there's ever going to be a definitive episode where you're like oh that's the end of the story sure we haven't really even gotten into

and we've covered a lot but really scratched the surface like your film taste my sense and just you talking about the posters and stuff is like you grew up with this kind of stuff the same way I did I'm curious like in the wake of like your discussion about Minecraft at the outset and also in this world where

like the Russo brothers ended up doing Avengers it's not inconceivable to see like a Marvel movie directed by Rob McElhaney is it I mean having had that three year journey Um, does that affect what the answer would have been five years ago or, I mean, give me your, your sense.

Is there any interest in, in jumping into like a franchise that you loved as a kid, love now, no, as a filmmaker, no. No. No. No. No. And did that change from Minecraft? No. Well, I, it, it actually changed. You know where it changed a lot? Uh, was with Chris and Phil. I watched Chris and Phil, and they're not, like, great friends of mine, but I know them, I know them a little bit. I'm, and I truly respect and revere them. Yeah. And I remember. remember when they signed on to do the Han movie, I was like,

whoa, that's going to be really cool. Like, I can't wait to see that because that's going to feel like they should be doing that with that world, right? Which is like, why does everyone have to feel exactly the same? And I'm sure they'll figure out a way to do their

thing, and yet it'll still feel of the world. And then I kept hearing reports back, like, yeah, they're not unhappy, things aren't working, things aren't working. And I don't know for sure. Right, but I know for sure what happened there, right? And like, and again, I'm not even placing fault on anybody in there because, you know, Kathy Kennedy and that whole crew, they have, you know, they're in charge and they're running their thing. Yeah. But Chris and Phil have a very specific voice. And you go, I'm sure that first meeting was you're going to let us do our thing, right?

This is all you guys. This is all you guys. Yes, yes. And then slowly but surely. He's got the Daily's back. Whoa, wait, that doesn't feel like Star Wars. Exactly. That's not Star Wars, and they're saying, well, no, it's not Star Wars. If you wanted Star Wars, go with George Lucas. Like, you wanted us to do our thing. And I would, personally, I would be afraid of doing that. And then I look at, you know, somebody like JJ or Ryan, who I think did an amazing job, right?

And so you're like, I appreciate and love that great filmmakers want to go do those movies because I enjoy watching those movies. But I think that they have, for somebody like Ryan is so talented and also, also just has the ability, he's such a sweet man, too, and probably has the ability to navigate those things. And I don't have the filmmaking prowess, and I also don't have the temperament to do it. So that's my verbose way of saying, fuck that.

Fair enough. I'm glad you're getting the sandbox to play in that you've got at FX and now at Apple. Mythic Quest. How are you guys dropping? This is one at a time, or all of them? No, so all nine episodes, yeah, are going to drop on Friday.

And I love that. And they were very collaborative about that because some of the shows were coming out weekly. And they asked us, they said, hey, what do you think? And I said, I think the show should come out all nine. And here's the thing about TV, where I'm at with TV,

specifically half-hour comedy. I am, I'm certainly not Steven Spielberg, but I have the ability to do what I want, right? And again, it's much lower stakes. But I'm trusted because I have a track record and I bring all my shows in on time and on budget. I truly do because I respect the fact that these people are willing to invest millions of dollars in my thing. And the only thing I ask is that they let me do what we

do. Doesn't mean we don't take feedback. We do take feedback. But when an Apple did this and FX does this, somebody's paying you millions of dollars. They have opinions. They should have opinions. At the end of the day, they would say, hey, we read the script. We don't like this. And I would say, okay, let me take it back to the team. Talk back to the team. We come back. We say, sorry guys, we like this. And they'd say, okay, but here's why we don't like it. And I'd say, okay, let me take it back to the team. We talk about it a little bit more. And we'd come back and we'd say, guys, we feel strongly that this is going to work. And they'd say, thank you very much for listening, for listening, and go make your show. What is up with this evolved adult

conversation shit they're doing over there? Look, I think part of it is also, there were times when they said we feel really strongly about something. And I would even go back to the team. And I would say, look, they feel very strongly about that, and we have to respect the relationship, right? I fear none of them. And again, that's coming from a place of privilege. If they really are going to fuck up my show, I will quit. I don't need it.

I own my other one. We're good. I'm doing this because I love it, right? And so we want to make something great, but I respect that they feel strongly about it. And I don't think they're really great creative partners. And so I'm like, this is a give. Even though we feel like we disagree,

it doesn't change the show fundamentally. It doesn't hurt us in any discernible way. We still feel like it's a surface level adjustment that's going to make them happy. And I think it's important to show respect to your partners. And so we do it. And so it really is reciprocal.

Yeah. And it's worked so far. It definitely is. Honestly, the new series is great. Some of these podcasts can feel like I'm like stretching and stretching and stretching. I feel like we scratched the surface today. So for season two, come on back.

we'll keep talking absolutely uh great to meet you today rob and again everybody should check out mythic west ravens banquet thank you very much for having me i'm honored if you need me for a vo let me know i'm around do let me hear it again mythic west ravens banquet oh that's pretty good once i knew i was up for it i know okay you got the gig all right thanks buddy thanks man and so ends another edition of happy sad confused remember to review rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh.

Goodbye summer movies. Hello, Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Chalemay playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lantamos' Bagonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis' return from retirement.

There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2. And Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.