Happy Sad Confused - Ryan Coogler

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

It's not overstating anything to say Ryan Coogler is the future of cinema. Not yet 40, the filmmaker's credits speak for themselves, FRUITVALE STATION, CREED, BLACK PANTHER, WAKANDA FOREVER, and now SINNERS. He joins Josh to talk about all of it, why he's in love with film over digital, and what it will mean to him to call action on Denzel Washington. UPCOMING EVENTS 1/6 in New York -- Tom Hiddleston -- ⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠ 1/7 in New York -- Jennifer Lawrence -- ⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Woo! It can't be that at all, you know, the 10 billion people on a planet or however a billion we are now. I'm going to be a happy day at one, bro. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh.

Welcome to another edition of Happy, Say, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, a first-time guest, someone we've been chasing for a long while, the great director that is, Ryan Coogler. We are talking Black Panther, Creed, Fruitvale Station, and, of course, sinners. Hey, guys, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for enjoying the podcast, however you're enjoying it. Spotify, YouTube, any podcast platform, whatever it is. I appreciate you guys.

Hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. This is a really cool one. This is one that he's been on the list. People always ask me, who are you looking to get on? He's on the short list. He was on the short list. Ryan Coogler, in a relatively young career in about a dozen years, as I think I say to him in this conversation, he's five for five as far as I'm concerned.

He has not made a miss as a director. He's so talented. I can't even imagine what the next 10, 20, 30 years look like for Ryan Coogler, but if they look anything like the past dozen, we're in for a treat. We're in for a lot of very special projects. Of course, Ryan has sinners. That is the topic at hand today. Came out nearly a year ago.

I mean, the last March, and it is still going strong. It's gotten re-releases. And, of course, lots of justifiable awards buzz. So a deep dive into a very smart, talented filmmaker, Ryan Cougar. Before we get to the main conversation, I'll remind you guys, as always, hit up our Patreon. Patreon. Instagram.com slash happy, sad, confused. That's where you get early access and bonus materials,

discount codes to our live events. By the way, we are starting January, 2026 off with a very big, exciting live event at 92nd Street Y, Tom Hiddleston. So get in on that. If you're in town, you know me and Tom. That's happy say I confused gold right there. So, yeah, get your tickets now. me and Tom Hiddleston talking the night manager and more other cool stuff to come soon too um okay in terms of more preamble for Ryan I don't think I have to say much more except um you guys know what a talent he is he's not only a director he's he's a writer director he is truly an autore you know I know that that braise is thrown around a lot but he lives up to the hype and to see what he's done with sinners totally original work obviously has

drawn inspiration from different sources, but it takes something to put it all together the way he did and what a big swing of a film and some validation that the audience will be there for big swings, for original IP, if done well. So I'm so happy Sinners is still in the awards conversation. It could, I mean, I think it's, I think it could get Coogler. I think it's going to be his first directing nomination well-deserved let's let's let's fingers cross for that one um and this is this is a great conversation as i say and it i hope it's the first of many he was very kind to me before and after he apparently is a fan of the podcast so hopefully we'll have him back because to be honest this conversation scratched the surface there's so much i want to do a deep dive

with him on all of his films but there's some highlights here there's some fun stuff on all the works in this one. So if you love film, you're going to love this one. Enjoy me and Ryan Cootler. Way overdue, but I am so, so, so thrilled. Ryan Coogler's unhappy, said, confused everybody. I mean, standing O, wherever you are. We got him. We got him. I'm honored to be here, bro. I'm honest to be here. I was excited for this, Josh. So I'm happy, happy to have, I've been able to make it happen. Yeah, we're connecting. finally we were just talking before we've we've been circling each other look as far as I'm concerned man you're five for five as a filmmaker you've had I appreciate that bro

you've had a hell of a dozen years you're off to an amazing start um talk to me a little bit I was saying to you before you know I've seen you out and about at premieres and stuff for other people's films not even your own stuff I see you out there like you're supporting and I see you at film festivals I don't bother you but I see you and I clock you as a real one someone that's there for the movies and the filmmakers is that important to you I mean You love this shit. You live and breathe it. I do, man.

I do. Like, I loved it before I was doing it. You know, I think that's the thing about our business. It's like that for most businesses, man. But like our business, everybody starts all a fan, you know? Yeah. And that was me. I engaged with the industry as a consumer first, you know.

And I don't ever want to lose that. You know, I never want to lose that part of myself. So when you see me out, you know, sometimes I'm a part of the community. So sometimes it's a friend's premiere that I want to be at, you know, and support them. But I'm also like a fan deep down, you know. So I'm in constant pursuit of that feeling of having my mind blown in the cinema. And I also like to have it blown by before I can have it ruined, you know what I mean, by a reviewer, by word of mouth, you know what I'm saying?

I love that festival experience. There's nothing like it, is there. You like, because we all get, whether we like it or not, we get influenced by what we see in the ecosystem of the ecosystem. Oh, absolutely, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's why, you know, especially today with information and really like people's opinion, it's so proliferated, you know, and also there's like a, you know, for better

for work there's an opinion economy you know so so that uh um you good man i'm good bro i'm good yeah i was just i was sorry i'm gonna get rid of this final drive icon that's jumping up and down all good but we'll just pick up where we were yeah um i had this i had this final this final drive icon you want to do share screen on the black panther script is that something you'd like just like no no it's nothing there for you yet but um But you were saying, look, it's amazing. I mean, it must blow your mind to be like, I was going to say, like, to me, I love you talking about the filmmakers you grew up with.

And some of them who became peers and real influences to you, the late great John Singleton, Spike, who's so important to you. I mean, to me, when I look at, like, the work you're putting out, I see Spike. I see Singleton. I also see Spielberg. I see those guys. Like, I see you as a love child of all these influences.

Do you see that in yourself? Oh, yeah, big time, big time. Um, everybody you just mentioned, I've had a chance to, to me, spend time with, tell him how much they mean to me, which is nice. I'm going to see Spike tonight. I'm giving him an award tonight. So I'm, so I'm going to see him and get to, you know, speak to, you know, what he means to me. Um, I had a chance to, uh, I spent time with Chris last night. Um, um, who was a big, big influence and mentor now, you know, um, um, but she Those guys, those guys give me advice, man. You know what I'm saying? Like it's going beyond influence to, it's become mentorship, you know. And just partially, bro, like I grew up, I'm a big brother, you know, like I'm the eldest of three.

So, you know, all of my life has been about, you know, trying to be there for my little brothers and advise and help be a source of guidance. But I always wanted that for myself, you know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't have, I didn't have a big brother. I had big cousins that were like a lot of older than me. In a lot of ways, that's what sinners is about, you know what I mean? But, yeah, it was something that I always yearn for. So it's a blessing in cinema to, you know, have access to movies that you admire,

to be able to, you know, I was a big physical media guy, you know, like, saw, I would watch the movies, I would break them down, you know, study them, you know, figure out why they made me feel the way that I felt. on a technical level. And then I was blessed, you know, to go to film school and get that chance to meet some of these people, you know, and over time, you know, I had a chance to befriend them, you know, and, you know, they become a part of my, some of them become a part of my life. You know what I'm, you know what I'm saying?

Like, you know, like John before he passed, you know, like Spike, like, like Chris and Emma, you know, where I can, they become a phone call or a text away. and it's been it's been amazing but no i absolutely was influenced by all the stuff that i was taken in do you see do you see some of them some of their specific work in in sinners i mean when i saw it again the other night i was seeing i was thinking through the prism of some of these filmmakers yeah and you know i you know i thought of something like people don't think of singleton with this film but like i thought of rosewood i thought of that film i thought of you know spike Malcolm X in the way that, like, he made, that's a movie movie.

Spike, like, leaned in and made, like, you know, big screen, like, David, David Lean. Yeah, David Lean. He gave it that treatment. No, totally. It was something that he talked about, man. Like, I'll talk to him about it. And it was something that made me very emotional because for Spike to make Malcolm X the way

that he wanted to make it. And I think that's a very perfect movie. I've spoken about that movie. I think it's, you know, for my, for where I sit, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, and, and, and what he had to do to make that movie, man, like, he had to go, he had to go, he had to go, uh, uh, uh, specifically, um, black people, you know, who had capital to, to, to get them to, to get his finishing funds, you know, um, um, um, um, And for me, I had this opportunity where I didn't have to do that, you know, because of what Spike did and what John did in terms of, like, paving away, you know, for me, I didn't have to go big braw still for additional funds. You know, the studio was willing to put that money up for what we were trying to do. And it made me really emotional when I thought about that. You know, what he had to go through to bring a movie that was so important.

You know what I mean? It's about one of them most important. you know, American Americans ever in Malcolm X. And I'm making a movie about, you know, it's about, you know, obviously it has the, you know, the burden of, of, this, this group that I think is underrepresented, you know what I mean? Like the people of the 1930s in the Mississippi Delta. But, you know, like, for us, like with this genre element, the studio was fully behind us. You know what I mean?

It was like, yeah, go, go make it as epic as possible. And I just, I just, it filled my heart with so much gratitude for Spike and John and, you know, and McQueen and Fuqua and all the way back to Oscar, Oscar Michelle and Julie Dash and, you know, um, uh, well, that's so much of what your work's about is also like legacy and passing it on and fathers and sons. And like, I mean, you know, you know, the next generation is going to stand on your shoulders too because you made the billion dollar Black Panther movie. and you made sinners on your own name. Yeah, I can only hope, bro, like that, that we can pay, you know, this fortune for, this good fortune that we've had on this movie and others. But when you say you see the, when you say you see the influences, bro, I'm like, I'm not trying to hide them, you know what I mean? Like, like, because, you know, one thing I learned,

we used to do this exercise. we do this exercise in film school it's called the Vagavon Project where they would get a bunch of first semester film students at S.E. And we will all go to the Vagavon Hotel which was like down the street

and we would all take the same script and split up in the different crews and we would make the movie. And it's like same lines and you couldn't change it. You know what I mean? That was part of the deal. You couldn't change it. And we would all come back with like six completely different movies. You know what I mean?

Like it was one of those things where where you realize that even when you, even, you know, even if you try to like Xerox somebody, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. It ends up being different. And I've even seen it with filmmakers who remake their own stuff, you know, like Michael Hanuky did funny games. Yeah, sure. You know, and he just did it as a, he did it in a different language and just as an

older filmmaker, a shot for shot remake. And it still felt completely different, you know what I mean? Like it's one of those things where, You know, you realize, man, you don't got a high as your influences. You know what I mean? You don't got a high as your inspiration. It's going to be your own anyway. You know what I'm saying?

Just about the fact that you are you making it. And, yeah, man, like I'm always, you know, before I make any movie, I always start by saying, all right, what did the guys that I admire when they had to do something similar? What did they do? You know what I mean? Like, you kind of kind of throw a little film festival from me. myself, you know what I'm saying? And I'm watching the things. And I'm part of watching anything, like for this movie, um, I have bought, um, don't look now. Mm-hmm. Nick Road, right? I bought,

I bought, yeah, I bought a, I bought this, I brought this movie, the Criterion in Blue Way, Blu-ray, maybe six years before I knew I was making sinners. And I just had it, because I heard so much about it, you know, um, and, and, you know, it was something I, you know, I got a lot of stuff. I got a lot of physical media that's like, oh, I'll get to this one day, you know. And it was like, I realized that I was about to make this, you know, this, you know, kind of gothic horror movie.

And I wanted it to be sensual. And I was something, you know, let me pop this in, man. Blew my fucking mind, bro. Blue my mind, bro. Like, like, you know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, like, like the film has to, it has to have a feeling like this. You know what I mean?

Like specifically that, the, the intimacy, you know what? not just that legendary intimacy scene that influence so much you know what I mean like I think I think it you know I haven't talked to Soderberg about this but I think it had to have

influenced the sex scene and out of sight you know it had to have like like but the fact that that the that this horror movie this psychological thriller supernatural could contain a moment like that between husband between grieving husband and wife

you know and bro I saw that after I had written the scene with smoking any. I had written that scene already, bro. You know what I'm saying? And I sit there and watch it. I'm like, oh, man, I'm on the same type of time

that this, you know, this film I agree with I. I hadn't ever met. I hadn't seen this movie. You know, I just heard about it. You know what I mean? Right. You pierced the veil. You spoke to Nick Rogue through the veil.

He was speaking to me, bro. You know what I'm saying? He was speaking to me. You know, and I think that for me, was like, okay, it was affirming, right? You know, it's affirming that, yo, this is possible. You know what I mean? Maybe this movie can contain this, this, this much, you know?

Yeah, you can't be constrained by genre. Like, some people might say, oh, it's a vampire movie. You can't be intimate. You can't be so sexy. You can't do it. Like, at that point, I'm in, I'm in on the movie. I'm in, right? Once you got the audience in, it's like, all right, you got them now.

What you're going to do with him? You know what I mean? And I was, that was kind of how I felt, you know, I'm like, oh, my God. You know, it's just, you know, it might be the best intimacy you've seen I've ever seen. You know what I'm saying? Like, and it's in his horror movie, you know.

I know. You know, um, it's in his movie with like blind mediums and shit. You know what I'm saying? Some haunting imagery in that one. From the parents behind law and order, from the parents behind law and order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy.

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you What are the non-negotiables when you went out on the market with this because this was sold on you and Michael and this this is not based on any IP as people know this is sold on your name I mean I can't take away

I can't take away Zanzi and Seb either, like, right? Like, it was, you know, we had, we had, we've done a lot of business, um, since the pandemic on things, a lot indirect, right? Like, like, we, we did create three, um, which, which made, you know, almost $300 million globally post-pandemic. We did, we did, uh, Judas and the Black Messiah, um, Space Jam, both of alls got caught up in the, in the, in the, in the day and date decision that happened during

the pandemic, but Space Jam still open, it's still open globally, number one. you know, you know, did a lot of good business from Warner Brothers. So, so, yeah, like, it was, it was, it was me and Mike, but it was also, it was also me, Zanzi and Sav. And I think, like, look, the non-negotiables were, number one was that it would be shot on film.

That was a, that was a big one. You know, I was probably, all of them, that was the one that I think was the most important. So tell me, okay, so tell me this, because, like, you know, I'm a cinefi, obviously a lot of people listening and watching this are but 96% of the folks that are watching movies out there they walk out of the theater they couldn't necessarily tell you the difference

oh i definitely saw something digital i definitely saw something in 65 mil why is it so important to you when you know intellectually they're not going to know that maybe emotionally they're going to respond in a different way i go what's your why is that such a passion for you i think it matters you know like um just because they can't articulate like like why i why i like something i think you know i think it still i think it still affects them you know what i mean um and look in today in today's age i think i think look i think shooting someone on film is more uh impactful now than it ever was because we because there's such a proliferation of digital photography you know um the average person in a day is going to interact with, like, I got to imagine, like,

hundreds, if not thousands of digital images, like, between their phone and they, you know, that's right now, right? We're talking via digital photography, right? It's a tiny sensor in my, in my laptop, you know what I mean? That's, you know, so, so we so used to the digital image that when you see something I was captured with cellular, it feels different. Right. Like, you know, it's, it's the same way that, like, look,

Like, it's restaurant serving food, right? It's a Michelin star restaurant serving food every day, right? Right. And, you know, everybody who's buying a reservation is not a culinary expert, you know what I'm saying? Some people who just want to have a nice night out, right? They want a good meal. I heard this restaurant was nice. I got some, you know, I'm going to treat myself.

I'm going to treat my date. I got an anniversary. And they sit down and they bite into the moose, bush. They can't tell you why it's good. You know what I'm saying? They just, they just, you know what I mean? Like, you know, they can tell you that this got, that this got a level of. Kuman in it in, you know, like a butter that was flung in for now.

You know, you know what I'm, some people can't. Some people bite it and they know, you know what I'm saying? Like who are culinary artists who engage with that art form on a daily, right? It's their life's calling, right? They know the why, but most people will know that still that there's a difference. They might not know the why or the how. They know the difference. You know what I'm saying?

Like this, and they feel in it in an instant, right? Yeah. You know, you know, your average person who goes to see six, seven movies a year, they, they know that when, they know that when Chris or Paul or Quentin, from frame one, they know something's different, you know. Now, these are, these are master filmmakers, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like, so, so, so, so, so it's a lot of shit happening in there. But that, but that, but that, but that medium is, it's playing, it's playing a, a role, too, you know. So, like, it does matter. And the other piece is that's not talked about enough is that it's a different working

rhythm when you're working in all formats, right? Like, like, things just become different. Like, you can't, like, like, like, Creed was a digital movie, right? We shot Creed digital and I love that movie. I love how that movie looked. I love Maurice Alberti, our cinematographer, we worked with on that. Um, you know, uh, but, but, bro, I had scenes, I had boxing scenes, bro, we had six cameras working. You know, me and my, me and my, my, my, my, my baby brother, Keenan was my

assistant on that. He actually, he actually was one of the screenwriters on Create 3, but we were under the ring. Maurice was in the, was in, was in, was in, was in, um, the, the, the, the, the, you know what I'm saying? But I'm under the ring, bro, with a, with a, with a, with a, uh, iPad with six cameras on it. You know what I mean? I'm watching a close-up with Stallone. I'm watching a shot of Michael and Tony's feet. I'm watching, I got a camera mounted at the top of the ceiling.

That's just like, that's just like just straight guy's eye at a ring in case I need that. I got cameras. I'm shooting, bro. I got people in HBO suits that are in the scene, like, as camera operators for HBO. Bro, them is cameras. I'm using, bro. I can cut to those cameras, you know, you know, you know, you know, you're using everything. You're going full Ridley Scott. More cameras. I'm going four really shot. I'm going forwardly Scott, bro. Like, like, and like, and like that shit, that should just split your mind

apart, bro. Like, you know, you know what I mean? Because you can't, you know, and, and, and yeah, like the, like the, in the DIT, you know, that image is actually what is it going to be. You know, it's very close to what it's going to be. Like, they're doing, they're doing a lot of color work. Obviously, the colors is going to do that thing later on with more processing power and the projection and everything. But, you know, like, that's very close to what it is. So it's difficult for your cinematographer to not spend a lot of time in the day, you know, when you working.

And I don't love that, bro. Like, I like the, I like the DP to be, to be like, because I'm next to the camera. That's how I was trained, you know. I just did a director's roundtable. you know, the great, you know, Yelkin Trir. Yeah. Oh, he does that too. I know.

He was talking about, he was talking about in this. And, bro, we're from different fucking continents, bro. You know what I'm saying? But we know, like, you stand next to that camera. You know what I'm saying? You're in the scene. You're with the actor. Yeah, you, yeah.

Where you got to be, man, it's happening once. You know what I'm saying? You don't want to be 100 feet, go to a monitor somewhere. You want to be right there. You know what I mean? And I like from, I like from my director of photography to be right there with me. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's, that's, that's what I like, you know.

And, um, in digital, you know, you kind of got to rage against the process because that, because that process kind of requires them to, they got to spend some time in that date, man, you know what, you know what I mean? That's just the reality of it, you know, like, um, uh, and, and, in, and the reality of it is when you digital, you know, more cameras kind of come with it. You got to kind of raise against, you got to kind of say, you know, we only doing, you only doing one camera, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, but if it's there, it's like, oh,

man, maybe it can get the feet, you know, maybe it can get the feet. You know, now I got, you know, now I can, you know, so, so for me, I go back to Fruitville, bro. We had one, bro. We had one, four-16. And that, and that shit was on Rachel Morrison's shoulder, you know, and that was what it was, bro. You know what I'm saying?

Octavia doing that shit, man, it's one, you know, Mike doing it's one camera, you know, and, and, um, so, so I, I wanted to get back to that. And the actors know, bro. Yeah, like I just know when you had a film, when you hit that film running through the camera, man, it's a different level of focus. Like, and, and there's also like a level of alchemy there, right? Like when you got, when you got digital, you know, it's, you know, there's monitors everywhere, but they hide that 4K monitors. So, you got video village here. You got the, you know, all of the artists who are doing that intricate work, all right, so makeup, man, we need a monitor. So we can see this. the, you know, we got, so now makeup, got not hair around, you know, so you, bro, there's nothing, bro, to, like, I'll, I'll take a walk. It's like, man, it's seven, it's seven video video, brother. Who's the director here? Like, it's, yeah, bro. It's seven video, it's seven video villages. You know, I'm like, man, God damn, what is it? You know, I'm doing what they

needs to know? Yeah, I mean, like, I'm, I'm good. I'm good with them, you know, I'm good with everybody. You know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, you know, but, but. But, but, it does it does become like like a like a like a like a like a driving theater at us right got a multiple like that yeah like yeah bro like in and and and and it's all like every it's all 4k it's all HD you see in every poor right know what I'm saying and like so for me I'm like I'm like bro like with man with with with with with with with with with with with film man people using their eyes bro yeah it's like man go look at the person man if you got an issue you know what I you know what I'm you know what I'm saying like it ain't going to be it ain't going to be in the

It ain't going to be in the monitor, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, don't bring them today ready, you know, and watch, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like, take a look, you know, look at their face, you know, and, and then I got, like, with sinners, bro, I got, I got, you know, Miles, man, he's fresh out of high school, bro. He had never seen a film camera before, right? You know, like, you turn that thing on, he's like, yo, what is this magic? You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? Like, and it would really get, it just brought, it brought a level of focus and a level of, um, and a level of, um,

of everybody's A game that I really I really missed you know you just got to convince you got to convince figy to just break the seal oh come on that's like that's an asset podcast for another day okay okay so there's so much I want to cover with you I know we're not going to get to everything but this is your first time on the pod so I do want to cover some stuff going back in the career a little bit and and look obviously you make the huge shift from me fruit veil is fantastic it's obviously a remarkable piece of work And I watch this book, you and Mike. And then you make that amazing leap to Creed.

And I'm curious, like, I'm always fascinated by that jump because, and I know you were already kind of like trying to manifest or not more than manifest. You were working on Creed. You were selling Sye on that before that even hit theaters. I think it was kind of in that. It was before we shop for Ville. I had my party sit down with, was the long. We were in prep.

That's crazy. Yeah, but I mean, it was, it was, it was an idea that I had. Um, yeah, it was parallel to Fruitvale, you know, so, so, so yeah, give me a sense of that period around that time when after Fruitvale is out, you're maybe about to shoot Creed, like, were you go, were you even going up for like studio gigs? There were reports at the time that like you met with Kathy Kennedy about Force Awakens even like you're a young filmmaker at that time. I didn't meet. I didn't meet about Force Awakens. No, no, no, no, no. That was later on. No, no, no, that that was never something that came our way. Like, that was at such a different level, bro, from where I was at. Well, that was no, first of a way. Yeah. Your Force Awakens and Creed came out the same year.

Oh, okay. So, so, so, you know, and they were, they were talking to, you know, they were talking to, like, A-list, you know, franchise-level filmmakers. Like, like, that was, that was beyond where I was at, you know, at that time. in um but were you viewing creed i know that was a passion project for a number of reasons connected to family but like were you also viewing it as kind of look it was it was worthy of doing on its own obviously you had a passion for it but it was also a stepping stone and kind of learning how to handle a bigger budget and a bigger crew and a star like sly were you cognizant

of like this is kind of kind of get me to where i need to go what i what i was yeah that's such an interesting question man because um because yeah fruville uh came with a lot of opportunity Like, afterwards. And I'll never forget, man. Like, I did something called, um, they called like a victory lap, like from a business perspective. But, what it was was like, like, you know, my agents at WME, great, great agents. I still, I still have one of them at the time.

It was a guy named Craig Castile who, um, who represents, you know, represents like all your favorite filmmakers, you know what I mean? and he's a brilliant agent. And I got a guy named Charles King at the time who made the transition. He's not my manager, but he owns macro. But yeah, Craig and Charles, they set me up with meetings

with studios all over town. Right. In these meetings, I would end up having relationships out of them that I still have to this day. Like, I met with Nigel Kukingaw, who was at one of her brothers. I ended up making Judas and the Black Messiah with her. I met Pam Abdi,

who was at New Regency at the time. And then, you know, obviously just green-lit sinners and one battle and weapons in our partnership with Mike DeLuca. But one of the folks that I met, I think his name was Adam, man, what was Adam's last night? He ran Paramount at the time. Okay. I want to say it was Adam Davidson, but that's not the right last name. But he said, hey, all, he said to me, I love Fruitville. but he said man do me a favor and don't make the same movie all over all over again he was like he was

like you got to make some something bigger for your second movie right and he was like it ain't got to be the biggest thing in the world you know what I mean but he was like but he was like he was like please make something he's like oh please make something bigger yeah uh because he was he was like I see a lot of filmmakers come out of sundance with you know with movies that that that I really love and then they're going to make another version of that same thing the same skill you know um And he was like, and he was like, if you got any hope of making bigger things, that, that, that doing that was in the wrong signal. Right. You know, and I, and I remember, it was his name out of period?

Fuck, I can't move. I can't move on a studio. But I remember, I remember that. You know, him saying that meant something to me. And I was already, I was already working on Creed, but Creed wasn't a sure thing yet. Right. You know, like, like, I think Slide was maybe, he was, he was, he was still doing an expendable movie. Yeah.

And, uh, we hadn't had a chance to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to connect. Um, and, and, and, you know, since the movie coming out. Because when we first met, it was definitely a vibe of, uh, oh, it's nice to meet you, young man. Right. You know, come back to me when your movie's done. You know what? I hadn't made this, I hadn't made a feature film yet. Um, and, uh, and so we hadn't had a chance to reconnect because of his schedule. Right. Um, and, and, and, yeah, like, other things were coming towards me, but nothing like, nothing like, nothing. Nothing. nothing like a Star Wars movie, bro. Like, like, it was, it was, you know, you know, mid-budget things and sure. And nothing I was, I was sure. And I was a writer. You know, I see myself as that first. Well, I was going to say that. Thank you for saying that because it's one of the things that differentiates you. And I think people forget that about Nolan, about you, is that you guys, not only are operating on the highest level, you're writer-directors. You're like generating your own material. You are storytellers in every sense of the word. And I'm sure that's, that's something that you take pride in and is hugely important to you as an artist.

I appreciate your kind words there, man. But yeah, it is a different working rhythm. You know, like, we all, we all different, you know, all directors work differently, you know. But yeah, like, I, it's my, it's my preference, my process to start from the page, you know. But people were still, I think in the answer, we were still learning about me and were submitting me. things and and um and it was definitely a time where it could have went it could win either direction you know um you know so this is this is 20 you know this is 2013 essentially like like uh because because fruva came out at the top of 2013 at sundance and it and it didn't hit theaters until the summer so like in between sundance and the movie

coming out to theaters there's a lot of meetings you know and a lot of festivals you know I mean, we did. We did Cannes, a bunch of other international festivals. And then I think Sly came home from doing expendables. And I remember it was a big piracy thing on this movie, too. Where, where, you know, which I know frustrated him, man. You know, and because it was still like, it's funny to think about 10 years ago, bro, like how much of this technology that's that's a everyday thing for us now is new then right um and uh yeah and then we sat down he had a chance to watch the movie you know um and then we we had some meetings and we got and we got along bro and he was like man let's do it you know like like and it changed everything

for me because it did give me an opportunity to um uh work on a skill that was that was you know obviously look it was 30 times the budget fruville was um but but it wasn't a hundred 100 times or 200 times, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't, it wasn't enough to just like, to just like wash me away in the, in the craziness of it. Like I couldn't have gone from Fruitville to Black Panther one for instance, right? Like, um, and it was, and it was also like a lot of,

with Creed, it was a film where, where, you know, I was able to be incredibly creative, but I also had like a lot of structure around me. Yeah, I'm sure Sly had some very specific ideas. He's a filmmaker in his own right. And, oh, yeah, like, like, he was, he was, um, honestly, bro, he really took me under his wing, bro.

Like, like, like, um, you know, um, I don't know if I could ever repay him for, uh, all of their advice, but also all of the trust, man, you know what I'm saying? Like he, like, he, like, he, he, he, he kind of, like, gave himself over to me as an actor. Right. While still, while still being there for guidance when it came to filmmaking, life, decisions. And that, and that went on, man, like for, you know, for, you know, for many years. You know what I mean? Like, I could go, I could go to him and say, hey, man, like, you know, for the, for the panther deal, for instance.

You know what I mean? Like, I didn't have anybody I could talk to about how to, how to approach it. That wasn't, like, my agent or a lawyer. you know what I'm saying or you know if him you know he's a writer director

right he's a writer first you know what I'm saying before you know even though he's a even though he's a world-class actor you know

he's a writer first you know what I'm saying so you know he would understand I'm like I got this this thing I got a right you know he was he was sitting

he was an art so look this is what you gotta think this is what you got to be thinking about you know you know I was about

me and says he's about to get married kind of advice there you know but But it was also Irwin Winkler there, you know, and I had the structure of the Rocky movie that I knew so, that I know so was a fan. So it was a lot of, it was a lot of, um, scaffolding, you know, for me to, for me to be able

to, to, to make that, that, you know, that creative jump, which, which I'll, you know, I'll forever be, I'll forever be grateful for it, man. over, and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders, an army scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins.

This is old-school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time, and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules-light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s, and man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the Shadow Dark every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on YouTube.com slash the Glass Cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark. If Bravo drama, pop culture, chaos, and honest takes are your love language, you'll want

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I have a random but specific one about the jump to Black Panther. I mean, that was a film that was obviously being talked about for years and years and years and went through different iterations. Is it true that you wanted Craven to be your bad guy? And I guess how far down the road did you get? Is there an iteration where Michael B is playing Craven the Hunter? No, no, no, no, no, no. Mike was always going to be killmonger.

And when I, so look, when I took that, when I took that job, Joe Robert Cole, who's my co-writer on both, both the Panthers, and he's, you know, he's the director now, you know what I mean? Like, like, a showrunner, you know, he's working in Atlanta on, on an adaptation for Netflix. But, but, yeah, when I took the, when I took the job, Joe had, Joe had been working with Marvel and Nate Moore, and they had an outline, you know,

know, um, uh, and, and, and so when I showed up, it was like, hey, we have our villains, our villains are, our, our, our, our, our, are our, our, our, our, are, our, our, are, our, are decided upon, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Uh, and, and, and, and so, no, I'm lying out, bro. Why not? Um, and the outline of villains were a claw and killmonger, but, but, but, they, they, they weren't, they weren't, they weren't, they weren't, they weren't, they weren't sure, like, like, you know, you know, claw felt slightly modular to him, you know what I'm you know what I'm saying? Um, and,

and obviously it was, it was like the great anti-circish, so I'm like, hyped to work with him. Um, but they also had, had a, uh, they wanted to base on the Christopher Priest's run. Right. And he's got an awesome, he's got, his run, like, starts with,

um, a fight with Panther and Craven in the kitchen. like that's like the first the first thing it's like it's like it's like ross panther craven fighting in the kitchen yeah you know um and and i i was i was i was like yo like if i could you know i'm a big Spider-Man fan you know like um especially Spider-Man an animated series

Craven's great in that he also like great in the books you know what I'm saying so I was like yo like can I have Craven in this movie and and um and they were like we don't think so but like let us check right quick so they hit sony and sony was like absolutely not so they came back and he was like yo we can't do it so like okay so it was but it was like a two-week process where i was developed some ideas um you know but i'm glad i'm glad it didn't work out because because craving would have would have would have basically like taking that claw spot

right and we denied the great andy circus yeah of course and i wouldn't have been out of the work with Andy you know what I'm saying so it was it was it was like it was like it was like thankfully it was doomed from the junk, you know, I'm, you know? Each of these films could be like three hours of the podcast, so I'm sorry, I'm jumping around. But like, I mean, I mean, what, Wakanda forever, I mean, I don't even know how you were able to make that, given all that happened and losing Chadwick, who, who by the way, I was privileged enough to know he did the podcast. I mean, just to be around that guy, obviously, what a special, a special man. I mean, he, he, did he ever, did he see a completed script? I mean, I know he was like, he was like, he was like, he was like. like getting ready but was there a script in place he um yeah now i he was he was i mean

honestly what happened was um i i finished it and um and i and i and i and i and i hit him up to read it and he was he was he was too sick to read bro like like like like like you know i was that I was kind of how the timing was you know like he was he was at a place where it wasn't it wasn't going to happen yeah um i didn't i didn't you know um and i didn't know um and i didn't know, you know, like, um, he, he, he, he, you know, our, our relationship was really interesting, bro, like, um, because, because he meant a lot to me. Um, uh, but, but I, but I found out, I found out after his passing, you know, from, from his, from his family and, and from his friends, like how much I meant to him, you know, um, um, uh, uh, um, uh.

which which um fuck me up pretty good bro um uh and i and i wondered if i wondered if he knew if he knew just how how much he meant to me you know what you know what i'm saying like i i did i did wonder um but like yeah like he he protected me from a lot bro yeah yeah our relationship was one of a lot of protection you know what i mean like i was convinced on the on the the toughest days on panther i was convinced that i was going to get fired You know what I mean? And I would say that. I would say it all the time, bro.

Like, like, like, if the actors was taking their time to get out of makeup, I'm like, yo, yeah, got to hurry up, they're going to fire me. You know what I mean? And one day, he took me to the side and he was like, yo, stop saying that. You know, and I was like, I was like, man, I was like, man, I really feel that way. He was like, look at me, bro, I'm not, I would never let that happen to you. I would not let that happen to you. You know what I mean?

Like, and I, and him, him saying that was like, Like, you know, in the moment, it was like, well, that's, that's, that's, that's cool, you know what I'm, you know what I mean? But like, we're like, we got to go get to work. We're looking, you know, he was all, you know, he was always protecting me, always, you know, and, and, and yeah, like to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, that he, he, you know, one of the strongest people, um, was, was being, you know, was having a strength taken from, from, from, from, from, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, um, it, it, it, it damaged me, bro, probably a rep of me, right? To be honest, sure. But I, but I love that script, bro. Like, I put, I put, I put, I put, I put, I put, much into that, into that version of the movie, because I felt like, I, I felt like I had gotten to know Chadwick as a performer, you know, so, so, you know, like, one of my favorite things to do with Michael B. Jordan is, like, I know him as a performer. Like, I know what he's capable of. Yeah. And I know where he can be pushed and what he can handle, you know, so I put, I throw a lot at Mike, you know what I'm saying? And I threw a lot at Chad and the

first panther, but I realized, like, I'll realize like, I mean, I was just scratching the surface, you know what, you know what I mean? Like, like, so it was, it was, it was, you know, it was, it was, I was just, I was, it was, it was like a dump truck on him. Now I know what he can do. I'm going to push him to the limit. Oh my God. Can you give me one, I know it's a father or son story. Can you give me one scene that you were itching to get him to see him play in the Wakanda forever. We'll never see. Look, bro, it was, it was, it was like a, it was like 180 page drive chock full of them bro you know what I'm saying but um you know like like the you know with the the big thing about the script was was that it was this it was this thing called

the uh the ritual of eight where where when a when a prince is eight years old he he has to go spend eight eight days in the bush with his father and and amongst them amongst those eight days they don't have it they have to go into the bush without any with all any tools um and and in uh and and the the the the the prince has to listen to every to ask to listen and do everything that's asked of his of him by his father but the rule is for those eight days the prince can ask the father any question and the father has to answer you know um so it was so you know and during the course of all during the course of those eight days um um um name name war launches an attack. So, so, so, that, that was what the, you know, that was what the movie was, you know,

like, um, you know, he's got, he's got, he's got, he's got, he had to deal with, with somebody who was, and it was a different version of the name were in that, in that script, but he had to deal with somebody who was, like, insanely dangerous. But, but because of his ritual, his son had to be, like, joined at his hip the whole time, you know, um, uh, so, so, like, you know, while he was engaging in negotiations fights. His son had to be, you know, I had to be right there. They would have to violate this ritual, which had never been broken. So that was what the, what the movie was.

Talk about raising the stakes. Yeah, no, I hear you. Yeah, it was insane, it was insane, bro. And Chow was going to kill it, bro. And, you know, but, you know, life goes as it goes. And I got a chance to make a movie about women, bro. which was so bro I love that movie so much bro

you know what I'm saying like so so you know I'm yeah I'm not expecting you to say anything about the next Black Panther but you have said it's going to be your next film my question for you is a really basic one and I mean this with love

why are you doing it you don't need to do it you've proven yourself in this realm twice so like I mean why is it important to you I'm not I'm not making movies to prove anything. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, like, um, you know, like, I'm telling, I'm telling, um, I'm telling, um, I'm telling

stories that I, that I want to tell that I'm obsessed with that I feel like, you know, like the burning desire to, to, to do. And, um, and it's, yeah, it's a movie that I'm, I'm incredibly excited about, you know, like, like, um, so that's really way, that's really the truth of it, you know, like, um, you know, like, like, like, I'm not, don't get me. me wrong, over the course of making things, do I, do I have an opportunity to prove things to myself? Sure. Or, or prove things about the marketplace? No, absolutely, bro. You know what I mean? Like, like, um, yeah, like, like, like, like,

like, yeah, like, did I, that I enjoy making a movie, um, that was essentially about, about, about powerful black women that were, that were grappling with grief, you know, while trying to do incredibly important jobs and also starring indigenous Mesoamerican people that I have a good time proving that that movie could go make $800 million dollars. Absolutely.

You know what I mean? Like, like, yeah, absolutely. You brought me great joy to prove that. But that's not why I was making it. You know what I'm saying? Like I was making it because I had a story that I was obsessed with, you know, and I had an opportunity to do things

that I learned how to swim. on that movie, bro. You know, I've been terrified of the water. You know, I mean, I had like, you know, I got to live my, I got to live my best, my best James Cameron life, bro. I'm 20, I'm 20 feet in a tank, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? With a bunch of, you know, with a bunch of, you know, with a bunch of black and Mexican folks swimming around. You know what I mean? That shit was, that she was awesome, bro. Like, you know what I mean? Like, like, and I, and I, and I did get a chance to, to, to, to, to move through an inescapable human emotion that, like, the emotion of grief. You know what I'm

I got the chance to move through that and I get to tell that story to my kids. Like, I made a fucking 100-something-odd-day movie with a broken heart, you know what I'm you know what I'm saying? And we did it, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, bro, like, I'm in it for my heart, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like I got this movie on my heart. And yeah, from the outside looking in, you might say, man, why this fucking dude making

another one of those, you know? That's not what I'm No, but that's totally fine No, like that's a totally like That's a totally That's a totally like that question makes sense You know what I'm saying? Like I don't do not that

And it's my job as a as a as a as a as a filmmaker To show why you know what I mean Make us care as much as you do That person who asked that question Who comes to the movie Jaded You know what I mean Like it's my it's my job to it's my job to answer that question You know what I mean

And I take out to you know that that's that's why I get paid You know what I'm saying? That's why that's that's that's why, you know, I show up to work, you know what I mean? And I do enjoy that, bro. How's that heart going to feel on set if and when you get to say call action on Denzel in a Black Panther movie? Shit. It'll be that out of all, you know, the 10 billion people on the planet, or however fucking billion we are at now, I'm going to be the happiest, I'm going to be the happiest one, bro. You ridden them, you're ridden them a good part?

You better. It's Denzel Washington. I'm gonna try, bro. Yeah, I'm gonna try. Okay, I'm gonna a couple quick things, and I promise, I'll let you go. You're, you're an X-Files fan, I take it. So talk to me why that show is so important to you

to bring this back. Hey, man, I love it, bro. Like, like, for me, you know, uh, that show, that show is what I used to watch with my mom, bro. Yeah. Like, it's, you know, it's, it's, It's one of the most beautiful American television shows I've ever made.

I think it's the story of, because, you know, Chris Carter will tell you, he was trying to make Koschak, the Nightstocker, you know what I'm saying? Like, for me, for me, that's what it's all about. It's like when you, when you, when you, as an artist, when you're trying to, like, trying to, like, capture something that you were influenced by and you make something totally new, anytime you watch a TV show, a movie where there's a skeptic paired with a believer and they're trying to solve a case, you know, like something like, you know,

true detective season one for instance, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, so, you know, it comes up so many times. And then, yeah, bro, that's the show that gave us, that's a show that gave us Vince Gilligan, bro. You know what I'm saying? You've been watching Pluribus? Pretty great. Yeah.

And I got a chance, I got a chance to talk to Vince Gilligan, bro, and get advice on, like, how to make television. You know what I mean? Like, because it is show. So, like, you know, I'm hype, bro. Like, I'm part of. Big mythology? or are you going to do kind of like the solo episodes, you know, like kind of the bottle episodes or, because that show did both.

I mean, it wouldn't be X-Files if we didn't do both, you know. You know, we intend on having, I haven't, I haven't, you know, both monsters of the week and also, you know, like the overarching, overarching conspiracy. You know what I'm saying? grappling with that. Yeah, but that's what I'm doing now. You know what I mean? Like Panther comes after that, you know, so I'm blessed to have a job, bro. I'm blessed to be working on things.

Is this cool? And it's also like, it's also like nice to have something that has like the pressure of the fans, you know what I'm saying? You know, a lot of a lot of really smart people that I don't want to let down, you know what I mean? Including Jillian. You spoke to Jillian, I heard. Is there the intent to involve them in some way?

I can't, I mean, you know, I'm big fans of her. I'm big fans of David. You know what I mean? That's all I can say. Here's my last thing. you, I promise. You mentioned Noah and Chris early on. He's a peer. You're kind of mentoring each other. I feel like you're hearing. Yeah, peers, bro. Oh, come on. You guys are. You guys are. What do you, what do you learn from what he's doing

beyond, like there's the tech side, which is obviously he's the top of the game. But there's also the storyteller. What do you learn from watching his work that keeps you on your toes that pushes you to the next level? Everything, bro. Everything, man. Like, like, um, they have a unique way of working. We share some crew, you know, like, um, but they, you know, I think that, that, um, they, they're incredible guides for me and Zanzi in particular, you know what I'm, you know what I mean? Like, um, I get a lot of guidance from them. They're very generous. But yeah, from his, his technical, um, his technical, uh, uh, I mean, honestly, bro, I actually learn, I'll learn more from him just like when it comes to storytelling, you know,

you know what I'm saying like he's such a brave he's such a brave storyteller very brave editor you know what I mean like like um some of the stuff I think some of the stuff him and Jenna doing you know what I mean like like just with you know the juxtaposition of images like the work with montage yes it's so bleeding edge you know um and his his ability to trust his audience you know um I think it's really it's really great um but yeah like His, his, you know, like, like, really, like since Cubery's passing, you know, you need, you need those people, bro, who are, who are like, I like to call them frontliners, you know, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Like people who, who are willing to, like, go out and, like, chop at the bush, you know what mean, get big by the bug, you know what I mean? And it's their first time. I'll take the heat for you guys. Yeah. You know, like, like, like I love, you know, like you got, you got, you got, you know, you got, um, you know, you got James. Yeah. Who's doing that for, for, you know, for motion capturing, yeah, virtual camera. Um, you know, 3D. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, like, you know, George was that person, right? Who's like, hey, we got to figure out this sound shit. So he makes Skywalker sound. We got to throw out this face shit. He makes I.m. You know what, you know, you know, you know what I mean? Like, like, like, like, like, like, like for him, you know, you know, he's such a frontliner. Um. Um. Um, you know. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. you know, for the theatrical experience,

for film technology, you know what I'm, you know what I mean? Like in that, that, for me, it's in that spirit where I'm like, all right, let's do, let's do the juxtaposition of, you know, ultra-panavision and 143, you know, it hasn't been done before, you know what I'm saying? Like, let's do it. You know what I'm saying? Because, like, you know, you get courage from people who are doing the thing

that hasn't been, it hasn't been done yet, but not just for the, for the, for the reason of because it hasn't been done yet, because they think about the audience. Yes. You know, you know, you know what I'm saying? They're thinking about the audience. They're thinking about the health of the industry, you know. Well, now you're one of those guys on the front lines. Welcome to the, welcome to the fight.

You're in front now. Right. Right. Oh, I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you. I mean, to be honest, I scratched like three percent of what I wanted to cover. Please come back on the. podcast. Oh, yeah, bro. I'll be happy to, man. I'll be happy to. You're truly killing it. I'm so happy that Sinners has found this devoted, passionate audience. It's a phenomenal piece of

work and best of luck. This silly but worthy award season, you're getting a lot of love. And I'm happy for you and Mike and everybody. Thank you, Josh. Yeah, thank you, man. I'm so, I'm so, I'm so fortunate to have his cash, too, bro. Like, like, you know, Mike and in, in, in, in, and Whomey and Delroy and Haley and Miles and, you know, just down the line, bro. I was so fortunate on this one. Yeah, I'm, it sucks me to get a chance to talk about them in their performances,

but man, maybe we get some more time next time. I would love to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still pissed that Mike didn't get Kilmonger Awards love. So let's make it happen for this one. We got to. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm for sure, bro.

All right. But, um, I think that I, yeah, it's interesting, bro, right? Because I think that like, I think that, yeah, it's interesting with comic movies. Well, you've experienced that. I mean, Angela, obviously, that was a bit of a heartbreak and, you know, it's, it is what it is. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, it was like, it was, it was so lovely that she was recognized, though. Yeah, she got to the party.

Yeah, yeah, but, um, nah, man, what a performance. But yeah, bro, Josh, love to talk to you. I appreciate you. All right. Talk to you soon, I hope. And so ends another edition of Happy. Sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

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