Happy Sad Confused - Sam Raimi

Episode Date: November 2, 2015

Filmmaker Sam Raimi is a true geek God. Decades later after the original Evil Dead, he has returned to the franchise with the new Starz TV series Ash vs. Evil Dead. Sam chats with Josh about all things Evil Dead from the very early beginnings to the brand new chapter in the series. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and when the cutoff happens, that's it, guys, it's over. So go to rootcrate.com slash happy and enter the code Happy to save $3 on your new subscription today. Hey guys, welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I am Josh Horowitz. Welcome to my little old podcast.

You're so kind to listen. Thanks. I mean that to each and every one of you. And to Sammy, joining me for the intro once again, an old veteran. Hey, Sammy. Hey, Josh. I'm happy to be here today. I feel like neither of us actually mean what we say.

Like, you just said thanks to each and every one of them, but you don't care about it. No, I do. I do. I'm very excited because this week's, we've been on a really good run of great filmmakers. last week was Danny Boyle. We had Guillermo de Toro recently. And this week's guest is a true, I don't know, he's kind of a geek god like Guillermo in many ways. Sam Ramey is the guest on this week's episode of Happy Said Confused. And not that I need to list the resume of Sam Ramey. But let's just talk about, let's just talk Sam Rame for a second. Of course, maybe most well known for the Spider-Man films, the Spider-Man Uno Dost and Trace. That's what's called, right? Maybe in Mexico, it's pain. I watch all my Spider-Man films in Mexico. It's a tradition.

Because you steal the wall. Watch the bootleg version. It's best at the bootleg version. And then, of course. Well, it's important to know that it was like the real spider. The Toby McGuire Spider-Man. Like the, you know, everyone's Spider-Man. You're dissing previous guests on the show Andrew Garfield and Mark Webb director.

So you basically, you're just shitting on previous guests here and there. I'm not here to make friends. here to tell the truth. Look, it is definitely true that Spider-Man and Spider-Man, too, are probably the best of the Spider-Man films thus far. I will certainly defend some aspects of the Mark Webb, Andrew Garfield, I'm a stone ones, but yeah, kind of misfires in some ways, unfortunately. But, yeah, Sam was promoting actually a return to another ginormous franchise that he really gave birth to even more than the Spider-Man films, which is, of course, the Evil Dead franchise, which he, you know, helmed Evil Dead.

Evil Dead 2, of course, an Army of Darkness. And now decades later has returned to the franchise after many, a lot of speculation over the years about when Ash, as portrayed by Bruce Campbell, would return. Well, Ash is back in Ash versus Evil Dead. It is a new TV series that is on Stars. It premiered as you listened to this probably a couple days ago. It premiered on Halloween night. I've seen the first two episodes.

It's really great. It's super, super fun. Sam directed the first episode. Bruce is totally back in his element as Ash. If you're a fan of that character, you will definitely love it. Lucy Lawless shows up in the show. It's a cool, action-packed, filthy,

horror action comedy kind of hybrid as kind of all the Evil Dead movies have been to different degrees. Did you have to cover your eyes at any point? Did you get a little nervous? No, it's more. I would say it's more fun and funny and irreverent then outright scary because if you Or like gory. It's a little gory

but it's kind of no but not in a truly disgusting way like his films like an interesting note on the evil dead films because I know you're an aficionado is that well if you look back they're kind of all each much different like the first evil dead is kind of like hardcore horror

and then the second one is almost a remake in some ways of the first evil dead and then by the third when Army of Darkness is kind of an out and out comedy so this one is kind of a little bit closer to Evil Dead 2 in Array of Darkness. Josh Harwitz, you can only watch one evil dead movie

for the rest of your life, and you have to watch it every single morning and every single night. So when you wake up and when you go to bed, it's the only thing you can watch. Which one are you picking? I think the general consensus is the second one is the best. So I guess I would go with that. I guess I would go with the second one.

Just because that's what the general consensus is. No, no, no, no. No, no. Yeah, because I'm a because I'm a follower. I want to know What's in your heart? I don't pretend to be the crazy expert of Evil Dead. Like, I haven't watched all the films dozens of times. I mean, I love them, but I'm just not the expert. Like, when I, growing up, Army of Darkness was the only one I've seen in theater,

so I have affection for that. But I haven't watched it again recently, so I would guess that Evil Dead 2 holds up better. Well, we do call your office, the Army of Darkness. The Office of Darkness? Yeah, the Office of Darkness. Different reasons. It's just because of the smell. No, so Sam, this is a great conversation. Sam is super, he's kind of got a great wit to him. He's very, I don't know, you can tell he's, he's a little bit off. And I mean that in a good way. Like, he's like sounds very polite, but when you're actually listening to the things he's saying, there's kind of like a, like a darkness to him. He's a contemporary also like the Cohen brothers. He came up with those guys. So he's kind of got that kind of twisted sense of humor, I think. So I'm very proud of this conversation. It's going to be a fun one for you guys to listen to, I think. Otherwise, I'm going to be yours for us.

I mean, I hope so. You're out of a job, buddy. No, don't kick me out, guys. I want to keep doing this. We've got a couple great guests coming up. I'll mention them because we have taped them so I can say in coming weeks. We've got Brie Larson, who is, I'm pretty sure, everyone's pretty sure she's going to get an Oscar nomination for her amazing performance in room. Check that out if you have a chance.

It's playing kind of an limited release, dark movie, but an amazing movie, and she's amazing in it. And Paul Bettney came by today. We take that today. Obviously, an amazing actor and now a writer and director of a new film called Shelter. Also worth checking out. I mean, he's an Avenger, so it's not really a big deal or anything. It's like fine. Although, well, he told me a very funny story about how he's married to Jennifer Connolly, of course.

Of course. She has basically made him aware that the makeup and stuff that he's wearing for as the vision is making him go bald. I can't wait to hear that. So more on that in an upcoming episode of Happy Sags & Fused. And just to say, as I sit here, I'm sitting where Paul Bettney sat just this morning. Yeah, what's it feel like? There's a lot of rings on the table from his, like, he needed a coaster. It looked like maybe his marriage.

You're like Sherlock Holmes of podcasts. You walk into an office. It looks like he picked up his cup six times and placed it in a different location. This office smells of Bettney. Yes, there was a coaster involved. Wow, you were very perceptive. How was your Halloween, by the way? We're taking this before Halloween,

but you're going to hear it after Halloween. My prediction is I got dressed up in a costume. I took two to three pictures, and I spent... What's your costume going to be, was, has been? I don't know if you know. I don't know. It's a character you might not. Wolverine.

Oh, my God. You're kidding. You were a caricature of yourself. I know. I'm like trying to pretend. It's cool. I'm so embarrassed. Have you ever dressed as a Hugh Jackman character before?

Sammy, if you're new to the podcast, is the world's biggest Hugh Jackman's name. Well, I've tried to do Wolverine multiple years now. What went wrong? Well, it's always male costumes. Yes. And it's like, I'm a lady. She's a lady, you know, I don't want to have a big muslin, but I found a onesie this year. So then some soft claws.

Right. And I don't know, I'm probably going to pick up a lot of men. I'm going to find the one this Halloween. Oh, my God. You're going to find your deb. I'm going to find my deb. Well, that's lovely. I will not be dressing up for Halloween because I'm boring and lame.

I get all my silliness and stupidness, stupidity out, my day-to-day job. I don't need to dress up on Halloween. I have such a good costume for you. Oh, God, what? A curmudgeon reporter. First of all, it is a stretch to call me a reporter, so thank you for that. A curmudgeon. is a natural...

Silly Jewish man. Thank you for calling me a man. Eating lean cuisines in his basement. Lean cuisine. That's a big night. That's about all to mention, except that there are also a bunch of cool after hours coming up.

We're taping. We have like four. We're scheduled for the next few weeks. Won't jinx them by saying them because then they'll be canceled at the last minute. Hiddleston? Hiddleston happened. I'm just kidding.

You just had to mention Tom one more time. It was like we had to do. It's like a good luck thing. We almost got away a week without mentioning Tommy Hittleson. I was going to let that happen. Tommy H. Not on my watch. No, no more Tom Hiddleston after hours until, hey, he's got a movie coming out next March.

Fingers crossed. No, but check out the MTV News YouTube page and check out all our shenanigans there. There should be a new one up Wednesday of this week. So check it out. And in the meantime, send me, tell me what you're thinking on Twitter. Tell me who you want to hear on the show at Joshua Horowitz. and I hope you enjoy this week's podcast with one of our truly best filmmakers out there, Sam Ramey, check out Ash versus Evil Dead. And here comes the music.

I love the music. Oh, you feel the music happening? No, that's not the music. Clearly it's added in post. No, please stop. You've been Comic-Conning this weekend? Comic-Con, that's why we're here. Yeah, it's one of the main reasons. Although, there might be some other event that it's happening in town.

Oh, the Paley Fest thing. That's fun. Oh, Paley Fest. Yeah, and then we're doing a Junkett, so we're just really working them. So who's your listeners? Young people. Young people, film geeks, I mean, like, yeah, look, I mean, we have everybody on here. A lot of filmmakers, Gamer, it was just on Giamond de Toro. He's great, I love that guy.

Just have Winona Ryder on. He's refreshing. He is. I'm enthusiastic, right? I said, fuck this, fuck that he's weird? Oh, my God. Have you seen Crimson and Peak? I love it tomorrow.

I'm obsessed. It's amazing. I love his movies. I can't wait. It looks great. It might be one of my favorites, if not my favorite of his. I know, and that's high praise. Wow.

Yeah. The orphanage, I think, is right now still. But that was what he produced that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the orphanage too, totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's just like satisfying in like a deep way.

Like, it's just like, sumptuous to look at, fun, dark, creepy. It's sort of different for Tom, too. Right? Yeah, he's kind of like a romantic hero. Tom who? Tom Hittleston. Oh, I don't even know who that actor is. He's the lead in.

He played Loki and the Avengers. He was in that movie. What was the one with Tildes Winton that I loved? Oh, the Latter-Day Vampire one. Only lovers left a lot of Jynchernish movie. Yeah, yeah. And is Miss Wachoski in the lead in Crimson Pee? She's the lead.

Yeah. Great. Has Chastain. Amazing. I mean, you know my love of Chastain probably, yeah. I just saw The Martian on Saturday night. So good. So good.

Yeah. Again, it's just satisfying. As is, look at this segue. I know. Ash versus Evil Dead. Look at that. I'm a professional, Sam. I missed it.

Can you do that again? I was saying the Martian, I was saying the Martian was satisfying, but nothing compared to that. No, seriously, I watched the first two episodes last night. It's a blast. Yeah. Oh, that's nice here. Thank you. Thank you.

Have we started? Yeah, I guess we started. Have we started? Do you want to start? Right. now for those of you listening he just made some really dramatic hand motions that were very pleasurable for me to see I feel like I was just directed by you um no it's it's a blast to see this franchise continue after all these years it's kind of crazy it's a 20 plus years since we've last seen ashen action he's back

he's back right so was it exciting you were at comic con I was just saying over the weekend doing some stuff um to see that the fans are still there that they haven't waned if anything I feel like they're more rabid than ever? The fans have always been great. They've really given us our chance in this business. When we couldn't make evil dead movies, we couldn't make any movie, no one give us money. There was still a demand for an evil dead too, and that's the one movie that kind of saved our career.

And then years later, when our movies went bad again and we couldn't get financing, the crowd wanted to see one more evil dead, so we were able to make Army of Darkness, and that kind of saved our career again. So the fans have really given us more than one chance in this business. Was there a certain point in your career where you realized that your life's work would be Evil Dead? Because clearly now you're just going to keep coming back to this at some point. Whenever you either want to or need it, it's going to be there for you, and the fans will be ready to receive it. That clarity of my past is only possible through the window of your show.

The truth is, there's so many points in my life, I think I'm never making another one of those pictures again. For instance, I had made three Evil Dead films, and then I was making these very big Spider-Man. pictures, Marvel's great superhero, Peter Parker, is Spider-Man. And the kids seemed to really like it, but I would go to these Comic-Con festivals or promotional pieces, and all the audience wanted to hear was, to ask was, this is fine, but when's the next Evil Dead picture? So I thought I had gotten away from it, but never. Like Michael Corleone, just when you think you're out. That's right. And, you know, it's really wonderful to have something as a writer and a director that The fans want to see because it's so rare.

I've been in the business for like 35, maybe 40 years. And I've never had anything that they've asked me to do again. Usually just ask me, please don't do that again. But this is the one thing, the last thing I would expect, because it's the first thing that we did. We made Evil Dead to break into the business, just trying to make it as good as it needed to be so that a drive-in movie theater would show it. Yeah. Never expected it to stick around as long as it has. Is there a lesson there in hindsight for a young filmmaker in terms of just go with your gut and, like, who knows, 30 plus years from now, it might reap rewards?

I mean, what's the, what is the upshot of something like that, you think? Well, I guess, like you said, go with your gut. Trust your passion. That's always the right thing to do as a film director. Because reason doesn't really apply as a film director. You really have to go with what you believe is the story, what you believe is the theme, what you believe is right. don't even need to explain it in words. In fact, I think that kind of destroys it oftentimes.

My favorite films are Frederico Fellini. And I'm so glad I don't have a track of him doing the director's voiceover, explaining everything. I mean, that just kills everything for me. Right. Reason is the enemy of art sometimes. So trust the passion. I agree with your suggestion. Is there any, do you remember the first time that you took great pleasure in,

injuring Bruce Campbell on screen? Was it still as satisfying today as it was all those years ago? Well, that started in high school even. Before cameras were around? Well, we were still making super eight movies. They were around on the weekends. But I remember in class, if Bruce would raise his hand and ask a question, I would take a pen and jamming

into the back of his spine gently at first. But then as the question would proceed, the pressure would increase. until it was almost unbearable as I'd hear the question wrapping up that's when we were in danger of actually puncturing the skin because it's really heartening to see

that you haven't missed the beat in the pilot you put him through the ringer yet again and this is actually a common theme I would venture to say throughout a lot of your work beyond just the evil dead movies your protagonists tend to suffer a great deal whether it's Spider-Man, poor Peter Parker or please drag me to hell with a dark man

You seem to revel in, I guess that's good drama, though, in a way. I think it's more my recognition of a sickness that the audience has that I am simply trying to cure. And that is they love to watch the innocent suffer screen. I don't know what it is. It's part of a, maybe it's a right of viewership, of identification with a hero that they've got to watch him go through, the dregs, the lowest part, the hardest parts before they appreciate his success. But I'm just trying to give those sick devils in the crowd what they need. Luckily, there are people like you. You're one of them.

You're one of us, too. Don't pretend like you're better than us. I guess I'm one of you, too. But, yeah, at least I recognize what we need. Right. I'm trying to drag you in with me. Okay. Happily there with you.

You talked about this. I mean, like in the 20 plus years since Army of Darkness, there's been a lot of talk about different incarnations of what the next installment would be. I know there was a film that you guys talked about off and on. It sounds like you've never wanted for ideas for this character. I mean, has it always been clear to you what direction you wanted to go in? Or did you wrestle a lot with you in your collaboration in terms of like what the logical next step would be? It's always a wrestling job.

And we never really know. It's sitting down with the writer or writers and figuring out what would be the next logical, entertaining step. What's unexpected? Nowadays, what do the fans really want to see? And you never really can answer that question. So that question is always in success. You turn it back on yourself and say, well, what I want to see? And hopefully I'm still connected to the fans and just a fan boy myself.

And if I can answer that correctly for myself, I'll have made something that everyone else wants to see. What are the advantages of getting 10 episodes, I guess roughly five hours to explore this and perhaps more, as opposed to doing a 100-minute film? What are the advantages? I think there are advantages and disadvantages. Advantages are the audience really loves Bruce Campbell. They love him playing this numskull monster fighter, this blowhard, this egotist, this, this braggart, buffoon, and coward. And now they can watch five uninterrupted hours over the course of the first season of him. They say that TV is great for character, and so they get a load of that character.

Now, the bad part is evil dead was always not just Bruce. That's 80% of it, but 20% was these cool camera shots and trying to be inventive angles and cool suggestions of the supernatural so that, well, they served those wild angles and cool suggestions of the supernatural served as seeds for the audience to plant in their very fertile imaginations and grow trees of horror, you know, these horrific, scary ideas. Well, I don't really have time on a TV schedule to do kind of cool, interesting, complex, I should say, camera pieces.

Right. It's just a TV schedule demands you move, move, move. So they get Bruce 100% of the time, but I think the tradeoff is the disadvantages. We can't really do those cool camera shots. Do you find that, like, you know, having done this for decades now, that like, do you ever worry the well runs dry in terms of, like, creating inventive new ways to shoot action, to shoot comedy? because it feels like you are able to kind of still find new angles, new ways into it. And I would think at a certain point, wait, what do we got left? Anybody have an idea here?

Is that ever happen or is it, is it bound like, you know? It never seems like we're out of ideas, but the way we keep going is by doing just what you said. Hey, anybody got an idea here. Yeah. I'm a very big collaborator and I take all the great ideas of my casting crew and then incorporate them into the shots, into the story, into the scenes. Now, that's not to say I don't claim that. I claim them as my own, of course. I am a director.

But that's really the secret of never running drive, using the entire team's energy and ideas to make it something much better than you could ever have imagined on your own. Did you feel like, I mean, I don't know the legalities of the ownership of the franchise, the characters and all that exactly. But like over the years, did you feel like you had to protect it in a way, I would think. I mean, obviously, did a remake a few years back, which I was a great fan of, by the way, what FedA did with that.

But in terms of like, did people, I would think people would have come to you over the years and said, let's cast, you know, Bradley Cooper as the new Ash, et cetera. You know what I mean? I mean, did that conversation come up? And did you have to convince people otherwise? That one didn't because Bruce Campbell for horror movie fans is like Charlie Chaplin. So it's more like, let's make another Bruce Campbell movie. Right. You know, what do you call me? Oh, yeah, Evil Dead. So he's really, that never came up about replacing him for that. I have lost him in other movies. movies. I went into the movie expecting to star Bruce and two months beforehand learned that the studio wouldn't allow it before he was a star. I'm curious also, I mean, if you look at the three evil dead movies, how much of it is happenstance and just sort of like the where you were at in your life that, I mean, each of them has kind of a different vibe. You can't say necessarily that they have a, I mean, there's a certain, obviously, through lines, Bruce among them. But they, they do kind of each have their own kind of mojo to them in terms of feel, look, budget, et cetera. How much of that just was purposeful and how much of it was just sort of the circumstances

of the time and how much money you had, et cetera? It was very purposeful. When we finished Evil Dead One and we had a chance, an opportunity to make the sequel, the only movie we could get the money for, I asked myself, what did they like about the first one? And I think the answer I came up with was that it was different. We tried to be original, even though it played upon all the old tropes of the horror movie. It was greatly influenced by George Romero's Great Night of the Living Dead and other horror movies

and has a thousand things in it that every other horror movie might have. But we tried to be original as we could. And I think the audience appreciated that more than anything. So I said to the boys, we're going to make this movie as original as possible, even original from the first one. Now, some people might want the same thing, but not the fans of you. dead, I thought, that they want something original again, even if it's different than the first one. So we made it into more of a wild comedy. Right. And then the third one, we played out the same scenario. We said, we're going to have to move in a new direction, fellas. Bruce, Rob and

myself got together, and we agreed we'd give them something original. So we turned that into like a medieval comedy. Right. And then I think when it came time for the TV show, we had the same conversation. And the thing that was going to be original there was this new blend of Bruce, all the time and very few you know camera effects or digital effects or camera shots that took a lot of time to set up so we said we'll just delve deeply into the the nutball scumbag the loser that is brouche and and that's what would be different this time so this time it was kind of forced upon us by the medium itself well there's so much comedy and enjoyment just to have of

putting him yes that buffoon amidst people that are just staring at him lie die like what's your problem you idiot you're you're the best we've got to defend us against this problem we're screwed yeah so back on evil dead as you recalled on the first one i mean were you a filmmaker at that time you're you know quite a young man did you have a lot of confidence did you feel like i don't know what i'm doing or did you have kind of the arrogance of youth like oh i got this this is i was meant to do this i'm ready for this i had the arrogance of youth and that served you well i guess Very well. I was figuring it out, figuring out as I went, storyboarding scenes the night before, getting more and more excited about the craft as the movie went on.

Talking a little bit about background, grew up in Michigan, was there any filmmaking pedigree in your family? Was there a big love of the arts? What was sort of like the environment and the Ramey household for the attitude towards film and TV, etc.? Well, my father was a amateur 16-millimeter home movie maker. At the time, 1969, I was like, nine years old he was making little movies of the birthday parties so i'd see on the projected on the wall he was a very bad editor because i'd see of the three reels that he filmed i'd see the kids leaving the party the kids opening the presents and then the kids coming to the party it's a third reel he spliced them all in the wrong order and it was very avant-garde he was impressionistic and that blew

my mind first i saw this that he had captured reality which was i thought a power that no man should of. He captured and replayed reality. And then he was genius enough to alter the time sequence that I remember that it had happened in. And that's what blew my mind about film. Not some great movie, but the most basic thing about motion pictures that you can capture reality and alter it. And once I saw that, I was hooked. Were your parents encouraging of your hobby turned vocation? They were not discouraging. They were kind of waiting for me to give it up and get a real job. But they allowed me to film in the house and I would make money raking leaves and shoveling snow and I'd buy the film cartridges, a Kodach. Kodachrome 40 or Ectchrome

160 was the names of the film stocks. You'd buy a reversal stock. You'd snap into the camera and could start filming. And they allowed me to shoot in the house, make messes. But they were really waiting for me to come back to reality. It just never happened. You've appeared in quite a number of films. You've acted quite a bit, a little bit. I mean, little cameos here and there. Was there an ambition to act early on? Well, I was always in the high school plays with Bruce, but I realized early on that he was a much better actor. Now you get an idea how bad I am. Sometimes you need the really good guy next to remind you, what were you fit in the universe? Yes. Plus, he was a good looking guy. So he

always put him in front of the camera, and I'd be behind the camera. And that's really was how we started to break up the responsibilities of movie making. But no, I never really saw myself as an actor and um but i would take a lot of parts in movies because i wanted to learn how to be a better director and i would learn people would direct me and i'd think gee they're not telling me anything i don't know what to do here i got to remember to be clear to the actors tell him where to stand where to move what the scenes about or other times i'd work on a show and the guy would be giving me way too much direction filling my head with all these nuances that i don't even know how to handle the props yet and he's telling me about this thematic element that has nothing to do with my

simple performance and I think I gotta remember to keep it simple for these guys you know when I direct so I I learn a lot just by by doing today's sponsor of happy set confused is Casper mattresses obsessively engineered American made mattresses at a shockingly fair price and now you guys can get $50 towards any mattress purchase by going to casper.com slash happy and using the code happy listen guys you spend at least a third of your life sleeping let's make sure you're doing it on a good mattress. Casper brings together two comfy technologies together for better nights and brighter days, latex foam and memory foam. So they've got just the right sink and just the right bounce no matter how you sleep. And they've got a risk-free trial and return policy, guys.

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You have until the 19th at 9 p.m. to subscribe and receive that month's crate and when cutoff happens though that's it it's over so go to luke crate.com slash happy enter the code happy to save three dollars on your new subscription today were that were there difficulties early on or at any i'm sure you know you work with all different kind of characters that actors rather they have all have their different processes you have to kind of figure it out and what works for them what were some warnings along the way in terms of this is not maybe the best way to talk to an actor or um How do I avoid conflict, as it were?

Well, the best thing is to do your homework and really understand the character's motivation, what they want, why they want it, and what's preventing them from getting that? What are they afraid of? What is stopping them from doing that? Know what they want in the scene in the moment. What are they after?

Exactly where are they when the scene begins and where do they progress by the scene's end? If you know those things, then you're at a great position to collaborate with an artist. Because you can hear their ideas And they usually not what you ever had imagined, but if they can fit into the overall story just in a new and more complex way,

it's a wonderful edition. Sure. But if they are changing it so much so that it doesn't really ring true to the character anymore, as a director, you've got to pull them back, and you've got to explain to them the real movements of these characters and why doesn't have to be in the way I imagined, but why they have to make a particular choice

or within some wide spectrum, this choice has to be made to further the story or to further the logic of the character. Because, yeah, your job is, you're on the macro. You're looking at the whole thing and they,

justifiably, that's not necessarily their job. They're looking out for the interests of their character and you have to kind of keep them on the right path. That's right. You have to understand the script

and bring it to life. Yeah. And sometimes the actors may have such a different understanding of the script that it's in conflict with the story you're telling. So that's where you really get

into problems. What do you think your best performance in film has been over your illustri's career? This particular radio show. I would nominate. I have a fondness for a hud sucker proxy, which I know you co-wrote. And you appear, you're one of the two kind of idea men, right, in silhouette? An idea man. I like the whole idea of the idea man idea. Yep. I was an idea man. Seen in silhouette with John Cameron was another guy seen in that silhouette scene. And And John has gone on to, well, he was on AD for many of the Cohn brothers' pictures, went on to co-produce some of them with him, and has gone on to produce and win the Emmy for Fargo, the TV show. Oh my God, I love Fargo.

I'm so excited for the new. It's done a really good job. Nice. Are the Cones, folks you still keep in touch with that are still folks that you'll hit up with you. Only once in a year and a quarter now. I see him, they invite me to the set or they come over for dinner, but just them being in New York and me being in Los Angeles.

Sure. having our own separate families has made a lot of a lot less frequent that I see them. Are you shocked, given what you made of them at first, like were your first impressions of them? Does it match sort of the careers that they've gone on to have? No, because my first impression of Joel Cohn was in 1981, and I had driven a station wagon full of 16mm negative from Detroit to New York, and I was supposed to meet the editor. And there was this, New York was not as nice at place as it is right now, then. There were a lot of rough-looking characters on the streets,

and one of them was pounding on my window. And I was trying to ignore him. I was looking for the editor. This bearded guy, it looked kind of crummy, and his clothes were filthy. And it was only after about a minute that he said, I am the editor's assistant. I'm Joel Cohn.

So my first impression of him was that it was a danger. So, no, I never imagined that Joel. Cole, who became a really good friend of mine, would have the skills and the talents to be the world's greatest, you know, writer, director. Arguably, they're up there. Not bad. But I love them personally. Comic books, of course, as is well known, it was a huge part of your life growing up, right?

I mean, you had a huge fondness for them. That was safe to say that was a, I mean, what were comics to you and what were the ones that really you were obsessed with? Well, in second grade, I would read the Superman and Batman comic books from DC because they were much simpler and they were more for a child of that age. But then my brother, Sanders, said to me, you've got to read Spider-Man. It's so complex and exciting. He's got his girlfriends and really human problems. So I started to read Spider-Man and never looked back.

The Marvel Universe really pulled me in and never let me out. So before Spider-Man, I mean, I would. would argue that Darkman is something of a comic book character that you created. I have a great fondness for that film. I read differing things. Is it true that you had some other close calls with other comic book films before Darkman that you tried to, you were up for Batman, Thor, were these things that were, that came close to happening? Yes, I wanted to do Batman. And then I found out that Tim Burton already had been selected by Wonder Brothers. And before that, I had wanted to do The Shadow. But, was Mr. Zemeckis over there? No, Bob Gale. Oh, Bob Gale. Were he staring up the back of the future poster?

Yeah. Yes, I'm looking at your back to the future poster. I love that movie. But Bob Gale had written a version of the shadow with a partner, and it was at Universal. And then I went in for a meeting, and I didn't know he was the writer at the time. I just thought he was the producer.

Got it. So I came in with an executive and Bob Gia on another writer, and I told all the things that I said, I wanted to do how I didn't think the shadow's villain should be somebody who kills grandparents. And I saw Bob getting kind of upset with me. Okay. And only halfway through the meeting, I thought, oh, you wrote it too. I thought you just wanted me to tell you what was.

Right. So I didn't get that job. What was your love? Because I grew up, my dad loved like the radio serial. So he would play The Shadow for me. And then I remember, I don't know if this was a touchstone for you. Because in the mid-80s, there was that great run. Howard Chacon did on.

on the shadow and comic books that I felt was fantastic. Was that inspiration? Completely. Yeah. Loved it. Actually, his was brilliant. It was actually William Caluda's stuff in the 70s. Oh, okay.

That took me by fire. I mean, it was awesome. DC Comics. And there's this really cool DC comic book just around then when Batman meets Shadow. Oh, cool. And he's run across this mysterious figure that finally helps him and saves him. And just as Batman's realizing, oh, my God, you're the shadow who's been gone for 30 years, you know, Batman stops him and says, I just want you to know you are my greatest inspiration. So cool.

So cool. Was Dark Man a happy experience at the time? Was your first kind of, I guess, full-on studio film? Yes. Darkman was a blast for me. We had a big studio budget, like $17 million, which is probably like $45 million now or something. Sure. Liam Neeson and Fran McDormann started in it.

And I loved working with both of them. And it was thrilling to make a big action picture above the skies of Los Angeles, helicopter chases, car chases, and some really cool monster makeup. I'll never forget. The marketing was great, too. I remember growing up here in New York and seeing the posters everywhere for Who is Darkman? It was such a smart thing from the marketeers to say, first of all, nobody's heard of this damn superhero.

So what are we, hey, well, ask them. Who is Darkman? Yeah. should I know? Maybe I should know. Exactly. It's a really smart way to turn a negative into a positive. Um, arguably, Quicken the Dead has one of the greatest assemblage of actors I can think of that you were, you guys were able to, to put together in that one. I'm always fascinated. Gene Hackman for my money is one of the greatest actors. Like, there's no false note in anything he's ever done. He's also notoriously not like, like can be a tough guy to work with at times. He's got kind of got his own

methodology. Was he was that a tough one? Was that a, was that a, Did you have an easy working relationship with Gene, or was that that takes some getting used to? It's not something I could ever get used to. Gene didn't like me. Oh, really? Yeah, and I tried to get along with him the best I could. But I remember our relationship probably could be summed up pretty quickly when he saw that I had storyboards. And storyboards, the director sits down, himself or with an artist, and he explains the shots he wants,

and they'll be drawn, and then director will say, no, I was thinking a little bit more low angle, where I could see both their faces, you know, real wide lens. And you work out shot by shot, the visuals. You really do a blueprint of your entire movie with storyboards when you, at least that's what I'd like to do. And so Gene Hackman saw this giant book of boards. He says, what, what's that?

And so Gene, these are storyboards, I've got drawing for every single shot. He says, am I pictured in there? My character? I say, yes. See, here you are, going into the bar. Here you are ordering a drink. And this is when you draw your gun.

I said, see, I got a super close-up. I know I don't have to use you. I'll get a second unit to shoot that. He says, well, anything that you've got a picture of me doing in there, I'm not doing. I said, you mean that you don't have to do the close-up, Gene. That's a second unit. No, no. Anything you've got a picture of me doing in there, I'm not doing.

So that was how our relationship started. And it got worse from there. Oh, no. That's got to be tough. That's a deflating moment for a filmmaker. And I'm sure you had reference for him going into it. I'm working with Gene Hackman. And then to know, oh, wait, we're just not on the same page.

He's just coming at it from a different way. Yeah. It's, uh, I just called the AD and said, uh, let's not send the storyboards every morning to Gene's trailer. Ham sold the storyboards of Mr. Hackman. Do you have, um, you know, when people like, you know, people like myself or fans are There's critics, like, look at your career. Like, they'll look at, like, things like, you know, for love of the game and the gift and a simple plan, which all kind of came back to back to back as kind of like, some might argue the least ramey-ish films that Sam has on his resume. You can argue it both ways.

I'm encouraged from your perspective, when you look at those, do those feel like anomalies or do those feel as personal and as unique to you as the dark man's and the evil deads, et cetera? They're unique to me. I was trying to do different things. After Quick and the Dead, which for me was just a complete exercise in style, I felt very empty and wanted to really tell the story through character. So I didn't work for quite a time because I could not find that script. And then I was lucky enough to come upon Scott Smith's a simple plan. And I thought I'll only tell this story through character and camera movement and lack of camera.

I won't put the camera in the most exciting place, which was always my mom. model, but in the right place, whatever that is. And that was how that story was told. And then I had a chance to work with Kevin Costner and tell a great Kevin Costner love story and a baseball movie. Not great, but I tried to do the best that I could. And that was a different direction for me, a sports movie with a love story, et cetera. And then I had a chance to work with a great Kate Blanchett. And I thought, you know, I've never really worked with a woman as my close, close collaborator. Sure. And certainly this is the best actress in the world. And it was written by a friend of mine, Billy Bob Thornton. So each movie was an attempt to do something I hadn't done before until this moment,

where I'm here with you, remaking an Evil Dead show. There you go. What was, um, that was more about it, uh, answering the fans, honestly. Yeah. It's the first show, the first thing I ever had that the fans actually asked for. So I finally listened and delivered this. And we're thankful for it. I appreciate it. What, what was the, um, for Spider-Man? which took up several years of your life. What was the initial, what was your pitch for it and how quickly did they respond to you? Was it in the room that you got that job

or did it take a while? It was very hard to get to the room. I told my agent when I heard that they were making a Spider-Man movie, Columbia Pictures. I said, get me in that room. I needed to have the meeting. I got to tell my great passion, make this picture. He said, well, honestly, they're not that interested in you.

I said, oh, well, why not? He said, well, he checked and called me back. They have 17 directors in Hollywood they would rather work with him. That's a very specific number. Because I kept pasturing them. So he, because this happened over the course of many conversations. So he finally came back with that. Look, there are 17 people who'd rather work with him.

So just get off us. Do you want to see the list? No, actually, I don't. I'm good. I did. So I told him, then tell them I'm number 18 because I want that job. And then I heard silence. when they say there's 17 in front of you,

it really means we don't want you, okay? That's a code, Nali, by the way. But nevertheless, about three months later, I asked, he said, well, let me find out. He called him, and they called him back angry again. Look, there's eight directors he'd still rather work with than you, and they've kind of gone through the 17, and this is a new eight.

I said, okay, well, at least it's better than 17. Right. So then he called me and said, you know what, they've run out of directors, and they're actually going to turn to you and take a meeting with you. It's like the end of the world is here. You know, it's how he explained to me. So I went in and I told Amy Pascal, Avi Arad, and the chairman of Sony, my great love for Stanley's comic books and what made them great. It wasn't my pitch. It was simply what

Stanley had done. It was so awesome. Yeah. And I don't think they had really understood how great of a comic book it was hearing it from someone who loved it. Sure. And the next day, I didn't hear from them and the next day I had in here for them but then I saw Variety and Variety said on the third day Sony has it down to three directors and I read the three and I was not listed as one of them and then I said you know what I was stupid to even go for this job I don't know the truth is despite how much I love it I wouldn't know how to make the web I wouldn't know how to do all these aerial stunts I had because I was trying to make some big machine that would fly around above Manhattan to capture these plates would end up killing people and I said I don't

Who was I kidding? I didn't want the damn job. I kind of pitied Cameron when I saw he was going to make it with Carol call years ago. Then the phone rang and they said, you've got the job. Amazing. That's a big moment. Yeah. It was shocking. Just when I completely convinced myself, I couldn't do it anyways. 17 said no. We've come to you, Sam. It worked out for everybody. Did, when you look back casting both Peter and they see this odd action figure, Michael was in here. recently Michael Shadden. Oh, cool. I mean, pound for pound. I think the greatest working actor. Oh, that's General Zod from Batman, from Man of Steel.

But you said Michael Shavan? Oh, I'm sorry. Michael Shannon, sorry. Yeah, yeah, no, it's all good. But it's a fun action figure, right? Well, I love how big they made those gigantic metal things. I know. The fun thing is that in that film, there's, of course,

no scene that has anything remotely like that. I like the audacity of the sculptor that said, no, he's going to be holding something big. Exactly. Don't stand up. Listen to us, please. I need this. This is a vision I have. It's so cool because you look super powerful.

Was casting, I would think that, I mean, there's a lot of war about, like, the folks that were up for Peter Parker and for Gobble. I'm sure you went through a long list of people. Was it, was there a lot of discussion? Was there like a final two or three that you were debating in your mind? Or was it clear from the start that it had to be Toby and Willem in the end? No, it wasn't from the start. It's only once I met, yeah, once I met Toby. I realized that he was the guy.

Yeah. I saw him in a few of his movies and met him and really, really thought he was Peter Parker. I think the studio fought me so much for so long because they assumed it was like a Clark Kent kind of thing. Right. And they were looking for a tall, classically handsome, leading man who was not such a kid or so. They didn't understand we were really casting Peter Parker. Right. And that's just the difference.

Did they have a first choice? There was talk of, like, Heath Ledger. Heath Ledger, I met with him. Yeah. And all of Hollywood's biggest young stars. Yeah. You must take a great source of pride. I mean, it's probably, like, I know you're self-analytical and kind of can be tough

on yourself from what I've read because, you know, when you look at the three Spider-Man films, you know, you have the distinction of probably making the most beloved superhero sequel of all time. I would say Spider-Man 2 is fantastic in every regard. And you're frank. And most hated. Well, I would say most hated. But I would say it was disappointing for some.

Yeah, most hated. I did not say those are not my words. I don't know what it would be, if not that. That's not true. In retrospect, what's the, I mean, from reading between the lines, it was the venom part of it that you didn't connect with. Is that the regret that the studio kind of, an Avey, said, we got to do venom, and it wasn't your thing? Well, I don't want to point fingers in anybody. Everyone was trying to do the best that they could.

And really, when a movie doesn't work, it's the director's responsibility. they've got to keep sight of what the audience wants, what they want. And when they start, when directors like myself start losing sight of what they want, it's just a recipe for disaster because you really, in every moment, have no one to look to for the right answer. You've got to be able to look to yourself and say, the camera goes here because he's mad. And I want to show that he's seething, you know, seething.

I want the sweat dripping on the lens. The camera's going to be low. and I want to see that he's red and upset but if you don't know how the character is supposed to be you don't know where to put the camera you don't know what to tell the actor and it's impossible to make a film when you look back I know four never came together

partially because you didn't think it was ready it wasn't quite going to work but you had cast Anne Hathaway who's eventually going to be Black Hat right or no no the casting never really took place on the movie because the movie never went into production we had certainly met with Anne Hathaway we loved her in the role but that's as far as he got is there in your mind as a as a fanboy

yourself nowadays and seeing the the spectrum of sort of what's out there is there any downside to you the the proliferation of these movies that i'm sure when you and i were growing up would have you know we would have questioned someone saying every you know every major movie is going to be a superhero movie that's going to be 10 polls from here to sunday is there a downside to the fact that it dominates the industry today you think or do you feel like The going is good for folks like us. Well, it's awesome if you're Marvel fan. And the movies are really of a super high quality

because they get some really great directors. But I do miss those great character stories of the 70s starring Al Pacino or Robert Redford or just really those William Goldman thrillers. They seem to have been sidelined a little bit. It doesn't seem like there's enough room on the, enough screens or something. I don't know. There's a lot less movies.

being made for some reason. And those are the ones that I loved that I don't see much anymore, dog day afternoons. They had a pretty good budget, is what I'm saying. Not that they wouldn't make a character piece. But those are like $3 million movies as opposed to the $30 million movies today. That's right. That mid range is gone. Yes, that mid range that I miss. So that's my only regret if the superhero movies are stealing that, um, that supply line of, uh, resources that made those films. Is the, uh, have you guys shot the entire run of this first season of Vass versus Evil Dead or were you guys on it? Yes, they finished shooting it.

I was mostly just working on that pilot. I just finished the pilot recently, but my partner, Rob Tappert, is really running the show down in New Zealand. I went down there, shot my episode, and came back and edited. And get all the glory. Yeah, look at the Daily's.

It looks like they're having a hard time down there. Would you direct for the second season? I don't know. Right now, I'm actually trying to find a screenplay for a movie. I'd like to make a film that's been a long time, and I'm really got to get it back. on the floor. That's the only thing I know how to do. What's the coming off of something like Oz? Are you the kind of person that's

reactionary to like the thing you just did? Like, let me go smaller now or are you, I mean, you're obviously one of a handful of directors that can handle a ginormous movie and still get great performances and get it on time and make it work. So I assume you get a lot of offers still of that ilk. I mean, I've been very lucky, luckier than I deserve and I still get offers to make bigger budget pictures and smaller budget pictures. But I'm really need to connect with the character or the story in a real basic way. Otherwise, it's really, I've learned my lesson, the wrong thing for me. So I have not found that thing yet.

The shadow. I've been shooting, but I'm reading again now. Could the shadow ever come back? The shadow never came back, but because I don't, oh, they did end up making it without. With Al Baldwin. I don't know if it was that script that he had written, though. I never saw that one. But there's still a great shadow movie to be made.

I would venture having seen that. I think that there were elements in that one, but it didn't work from my advantage. I never saw that one. Yeah. But I took a lot of the elements, stole a lot of the elements from William Gibson's great creation and wrote my own version of the shadow when I couldn't get them to take my changes or they didn't let me into their project. So I called my version of Shadow Dark Man.

And I made him a master of disguise and took all the things that William Gibson, I hope I have his name right, had put in. his original creation. Do you have, I mean, are you the kind of filmmaker that has a lot of, kind of, like, scripts on the backlog and things that you've been working on that, that you still hope to come to fruition? Or is it's, is the desk empty? Is the drawer empty? You know, I have like, two scripts that I'm writing with my brother right now. And, um, ideas for many more, but, um, I need to get, I'm fortunately, I put him on the staff of the TV show. Right. And I need to get him back. We won't leave right now. Um, I'm not surprised.

to say that in visiting me here today, you outdressed me. You always dress impeccably. This is something that goes way back. Was this on the first Evil Dead? Were you wearing a suit? Were you wearing a jacket and tie? No. When did that start? That started on Evil Dead 2. Evil Dead one was just too miserably bloody and awful. I didn't even have the money to buy a jacket or tie at that time. But where does it come from? My father always told me to dress in a way that conveys the level, well, that communicates the level of respect you wish to convey. Right.

And so I see you haven't won a tie jacket and that's fine. Like flip-flops, no pants. I don't respect you at all, Mr. Ramay. That's not sure. Please put some pants on. Please. I would be wearing a tuxedo to convey how much respect I have for you if it came to that. Let's take a little break.

When we come back, Josh will be wearing coat and tails. I can't tell you how much of a treat it is for me. I felt like this turned into a little bit of this is your life. I hope that it's okay. Thank you for your kind words and your interest in the films I made and your knowledge of them. It's great to run across the interview. Well, you're not a talk show host. You're not an interviewer.

There's no name for what I am. You're a podcaster. So it's great to find a caster who is very professional. Thank you. Despite how they dress. I'm so rude in the end. That was like the nicest compliment and just ended in a nasty way. It's not even true.

Good luck on Ash vs. Evil Dead. May it continue for many years to come. I'm loving what I'm seeing so far, man. Thank you, sir. Denzel Washington is the greatest actor of all time period. It's not a question, it's a statement. It's also the name of a podcast on Wolf III. So if you're foolish enough to disagree, listen so we can tell you how wrong you are.

I'm Kevin Avery, and each week, W. Comabelle and I put out a new episode where we review every Denzel movie in alphabetical order, sort of kind of. Look, we jump around a lot, all right? We're going to do that. We're going to catch you up on the latest Denzel news and even speculate on who would be the next Denzel, all with great guests like Omar Dorsey from the movie Selma and director Ava Du Barnett. Listen to this recent clip. I like Training Day a lot. It's one of my favorite. It would be a very good. It's on TV, I'm going to sit down to watch it. But I think for a lot of people, they want to make, it's like a guilty pleasure, Denzel watching it.

He's playing such an unredeemable character. It's red velvet cake. You can't eat that every day. It's red velvet cake, yes. Exactly. Man, eat it during Christmas. You can't have that all the time. Yeah.

So tune in to Kamau and I every week on iTunes, Wolf Pop, Howl, or your favorite podcast app, and you too will understand why Denzel Washington is the greatest actor of all time, period. Any questions? Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop. This has been a Wolfpop production. Executive produced by Paul Shear, Adam Sacks, Chris Bannon, and Matt Goreley. For more information and content, visit Wolfpop.com.

summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the ultimate movie podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos' Borgonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis's return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes the running man starring

Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.