Happy Sad Confused - Sam Rockwell

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

When Sam Rockwell shows up good things happen. From indies to blockbusters to his latest instantly iconic surprise turn in THE WHITE LOTUS, he's a true chameleon and an actor's actor. Sam joins Josh to chat memorable monologues, his favorite actors, why Philip Seymour Hoffman was such an inspiration, and more. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is an eight-episode episode Hulu original limited series that blends gripping pacing with emotional complexity, offering a dramatized look as it revisits the wrongful conviction of Amanda Knox for the tragic murder of Meredith Kircher and the relentless media storm that followed. The twisted tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming only on Disney Plus.

And the tone was weird, man. The tone was weird. It was not clear. You know, it was like popcorn meets cutesy meets Bill Murray's Crispin, you know, crispin Glovers in it and fucking. And it was a wacky thing. It was a wacky movie. It's a wacky movie that it works, frankly. It's a miracle.

It's everything you talked about. It's nuts. The movie is nuts. Yeah, it shouldn't work. It shouldn't work. But it does. And then it collapse in the second one because that kind of thing only happens once. Sure.

Sure. Right. Sure. exactly prepare your ears humans happy sad confused begins now hey guys it's Josh welcome to another edition of happy sad confused the main event today one of our great actors mr. Sam Rockwell on my screen and hopefully in your ears and on your screen for this very special conversation for happy sad confused it's been a packed week guys welcome to the show our third

episode of the week if you're keeping track I know I am Monday We had David Goyer talking all things Batman begins for the 20th anniversary. If you haven't checked that out, and you're a Batman fan. Do yourself in favor. And then we just dropped the other day our 28 years later conversation with Danny Boyle and Jody Comer and out Aaron Taylor Johnson recorded in my 2nd Street Y. And because we just had to jam one more in, we have Sam Rockwell in the house. I'm so excited to share this one today.

It's been a minute since Sam has been on the podcast solo. So this was a nice opportunity to catch up with one of my faves. Before we get to that, as always, a little reminder, patreon.com slash happy, say it confused, is your friend for all things happy, say it confused, early access, discount codes to our live events, merch, opportunities to ask questions of our guests, check it out.

It helps us make more stuff over here. If you support us over there, again, that's patreon.com slash happy, say it confused. Okay, Sam Rockwell. I don't need to give you much of an intro to Sam Rockwell. If you love film, TV, theater, the last 25, 30 years, then you probably love Sam Rockwell, especially if you have good taste. He is an Oscar winner.

He is about to probably get another Emmy nomination deservedly so for his really cool supporting turn. Surprising supporting turn. If you've seen the White Lotus, you know what I'm talking about. He just about steals the show when he comes in midway through. I'm not going to spoil it if you haven't seen the show. You probably should check it out before this conversation. but he does arrive on the scene as a contemporary friend of Walt Goggins character and then delivers not only a bunch of great conversations and scenes throughout the series,

but one monologue in particular that is in an immediate all-timer. So this conversation is a lot about White Lotus, but we also hit upon a lot of great actors that Sam admires that I admire. Sam is a true actor's actor, loves the profession, loves great. films filmmakers and above all else actors so to hear him gush about phil hoffman and jean hackman and just you know gary oldman and the folks that inspire him is really cool to hear not to mention fun stories about charlie's angels and iron man too and much much more um fun chat with sam before we launch into it a little context this was a zoom conversation and sam's partner if you don't know is

leslie bib very talented amazing actor also killed it in white lotus this season. So when I popped on the Zoom, Leslie was there as well. I know Sam and Leslie for many years now. They're two of my favorite human beings on the planet, fellow New Yorkers, fellow dog lovers. So I've seen them out and about many times over the years and happy to see them both. So that's why you're going to see and hear Leslie in the beginning of this as well. There's no real formal introduction. We just kind of launch right into this random fun conversation. So that's all the preamble you need. What you're about to listen to and here is a conversation with one of our greats. Please enjoy my conversation with the legend, Mr. Sam Rockwell.

Oh, hello. I was hoping I got a package deal today. It's my competition out there. Hi, my Sam. Hi, Sam. Hi, babe. How's it going, guys? What's how about, man? Sam, are you really eating? while you're doing that. You're shoving food in your mouth. It's so unprofessional. No, this is what I expect. I have a very low bar for him.

Don't worry. Thanks, Ben. But last time you were together, you were in a bed together. We were. There have been multiple times, practically. Hold on. I'm leaving.

How was your new gig as a Today Show host? Wait, I can't hear you because Sam screaming at me. How's your new gig as a Today Show host? I just did two days. It was really fun. So I look like a little. kid like trying to peer that this is what gus looks like this is gus at thanksgiving trying to eat what do you mean i love turkey gussie come say hi come here yeah gus i want the whole found

i'm sad at gus right now because he almost gusy look come here come here come say hi come up up up up up pause up come on come oh he weighs so much oh there's the true superstar it's more worst allergies who's got the allergies who's allergic to who Gus is allergic to New York City that's no good fancy fancy

okay I'm gonna let you guys be good to see you Josh can I say something how good was Sam Rockwell in the White Lotus I'm gonna get we're gonna talk about both of you for the next 45 minutes and Gus you guys are both amazing you killed it But that monologue Unbelievable. Can I tell you a good story while you're on camera too?

And I was going to say this for the podcast. But we're officially in the podcast. We're doing this. When Walton was on like a year and a half ago on the podcast, we were talking fallout and he was in the middle of shooting, White Lotus. And he spilled by accident, Sam, that you were in the show. And I've never seen a man so scared that he was going to be fired in the middle of his shoot. He caught himself.

You kept a secret? I, we cut it out. we cut it out of the show he was like dying it's so my god you're you're you're good you're good man can i tell you we we threw a christmas party which by the way you need to be on our guest list to come to the christmas party um we throw this like fun christmas party i saw you vying for a coconut cake with tom cruise too by the more than vying begging shameless shameless i love coconut i love do you guys get the cake do you guys get the cake no i don't get a coconut cake from tom tc i don't no tc um personal friend of mine you don't get a check in a personal friend um but uh we were at the

christmas party and everyone's like because we you know just come back and it only been like a couple you know a few months and everyone's like did sam come visit you and i had to lie we were like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah a little drive by it's the weird to people is one of the things i hate most which i know is seen silly because we're actors but I hate lying. It was all for a good cause. The world benefited from the surprise. All right.

We got dressed up for your podcast, bro. I appreciate you. He's so good in that show, right? He's so, it's like, here's the thing. You think. How good is she is? Kate, she's so. You stop, you stop.

You stop. This juice on her face. Stop. You both disgust me. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's because he's, he's, he's, he's not in as much of the show, but to me, it's, is the whole reason. It's like what the whole show is about. All right. Get out of here. And I think it's so, you're so, it's crazy. I'm going to punch

somebody. How likable is she as that character? I'm going to punch somebody if you both don't get all the nominations. God damn it. How you doing, buddy? How you doing? Put the toilet seat down for fuck sake. Keeping all of this in. This is, This is the podcast, by the way. I wanted to leave a surprise for you. Wait. And the surprise is, good riddens for me. This isn't work.

This is just fun for me. You don't know that I left that toilet seat up. Oh, yeah, because there's so many men. There's a bunch of people in the house today. Yeah. We just went from touting your brilliant performance to you were a disgusting Neanderthal. We just ran the gamut of a relationship right there in 30 seconds. Welcome to my life.

Yeah. He's a brilliant. Brilliant artist. Had a disgusting heathen. Such a brilliant toilet person down or cedar. That was open.

She'd be drenched. Oh, how's life? You're back home. Hey, bro. What's happening? It's all good. Keeping busy.

Hey, man. Me too. I'm just kind of, yeah. Yeah, man. I like the haircut. Thank you. Trying to keep it clean for you.

You know who I saw yesterday. And we're in it, if that's okay. I saw, I saw Terturo yesterday. It made me think. Oh, shit. I am way too, I haven't seen Box of Moonlight probably in 30 years. I need to go back. That didn't come up with the internet.

No, we were doing that thing for severance. But, yeah. Can we, let's just reminisce about that one. Was Tertrull a big deal for you way back when? Big deal. Big deal. Yeah, because, you know, I heard about his infamous performance in Danny and the Deep Blue C, which kind of put him on the map

and then I saw him in Miller's Crossing and everybody was talking about John and Miller's Crossing, you know, because it was that generation of like John Tituro, Miller's Crossing, Gary Oldman, Sid and Nancy, and John Malkovich True West and places in the heart.

And, you know, and then it was just, yeah, this, you know, Phil Daniels was a guy and then all these kind of, that generation of actors, you know, was just exploding and Dana DeLewis and Ray Fines, Willem DeFoe and, you know. I have to say, I've done a few things. I was in L.A. like a week or two ago and I did an event with Gary Oldman. And I've got a couple of these like career retrospectives with him.

The dude is un, we all know this. We've known that. And where he is now and the life he's lived, then he went through it all. And now he's like the sweetest, most humble and like self-effacing hates his own like acting. Like it's so the harshest critic ever. And it's just so inspiring to hear him talk about the movies. No, he's the best, man. I get to spend a lot of time with him during the Oscar stuff, you know.

And he and I run the same circuit. Yeah. We had a great, we had a great, we had some good laughs. Yeah. So you're back home. You've been running around. You've done a lot of travel for work the last year. It's been a lot of travel.

Yeah, South Africa, Easter Island. It's been all over the place. Yeah. Yeah, so what are the routines when you come back home? What do you fall into? Do you have a, like, what's your role around the house besides not leaving the toilet seat down? Well, when my dog's not. Sneasing, you know, taking me down in the park.

Let's see. I go to the movies. I go, you know, try to catch in some theater. I try to, you know, you know the usual crap so to see people friends you know yeah yeah so what okay okay so what leslie already did what about you young man what's my life what's my daily life yeah what do you do you do for leisure for my my work is my child do you have a child do you are you married you have a I'm married the dog is in the other the wife and the dog is in the other room okay that's good we got

the same deal yeah yeah we got the same kind of deal yeah um no but okay let's let's let's let's Let's talk White Lotus. Leslie already did some of the heavy lifting for me, but I will echo everything she said. You kill it in this. And it's such a delightful surprise for most of the world outside of me because Walton gave me the tip off. But talk to me like, look, this is a nice, this is a nice weird surprise in your life, too, because this was obviously something that came out of nowhere. Are you a believer in kind of like everything happens for a reason, kind of a thing in an acting life or what?

Like, how do you look at this one? Yeah, I mean, this was really an unexpected kind of hit thing that happened. You know, I mean, I was supposed to be another actor. He dropped out because of dates. And then I, they called me. I was in South Africa. And I was doing, I was doing this movie with Gore of Rabinsky. And Zazi Beats, Michael Peña, Juno Temple.

you know all these great actors and we we we um i was doing all these monologues in the movie the the movie begins with a 10 page monologue and then i'd also done american buffalo with monologues so i was kind of tuned up by the time i got the white lotus which didn't i didn't have a lot of prep time and then it just kind of came together you know and mike you know he really did an extraordinary thing with in the writing of this monologue, he sums up the entire season, all the characters, kind of with this one character, sort of summarizing the theme of the season, which is, you know, this sort of quest for enlightenment, spirituality and the conflict between that and selfishness.

And so he, the task at hand, you know, the acting problem with the monologue, was really, you know, in a way to kind of summarize that whole philosophy of that season. Right. And it was interesting. It was really interesting trying to get it together. And then, you know, I was ambivalent because I didn't know if I'd have enough time to prepare. Walt called me, Leslie called me, and they were like, you got to do it. And then I had some ideas for the rest of the stuff.

And I pitched at the mic and I just jumped in. And then, you know, yeah. So in practical terms, like what are, can you? If you agree to do it, you're like, okay, this is too good to pass up. What do you start to work on? I know you work with Harry Knickerbocker, who you always talk about, your acting teacher, coach. Like what in the margins of your script, like, what are the notes? Like how particular are you getting and kind of like figuring out cracking that model?

Are you getting very, very specific with it? And, you know, little tiny things tweaking with Mike or or even Leslie and obviously Terry Nickerbocker and then kind of like trying to get more specific and I think as you get older the work with more experience you know what Gene Hackman calls sort of like getting simpler getting simplifying your work and so there was a tendency to want to do it you know maybe with like a twang or do it like a it was sort of described to me like these guys are it's ambivalent with their backstories that they might be ex-pats ex-military right because he's giving him a gun and could they have been mercenaries you know it's sort of unclear on purpose what

what Walt Rick and Frank's background is and so you kind of have to create your own past and then so you know we did some things like we had a couple of guys they make up hair team. They shaved my head, gave me some scars. I had a navy seal tattoo and I was pretty skinny at the time. And Walt, I don't know, Walt and I, I knew we'd be well paired and we would immediately have this kind of Butch Cassidy Sundance, Cagney and Lacey vibe going. I knew that was going to happen immediately. So that was kind of taken care of. And to act with a close friend was really interesting to play close friends with a history

in a show with an actual close friend with a history is really cool and you have a shorthand so it's it helps you immediately and you know Mike was open to a lot of the ideas that I pitched him

my acting coach Terry said you should have an alter ego for the film director character so we created a look with the members only in the hat it's kind of like Tony Scott or right right I see that you know kind of a little McConaughey in there or something and then um or Woody Harrelson maybe and then you know uh it just kind of like uh came together I pitched him I mean there was a bar fight that we shot that was cut out but like um really

interesting stuff and and some of it ended up in I pitched in the hallway scene and he wrote that scene. Yeah. And yeah, the monologues pretty much intact, I would say, for the most part. Were you thinking of, I mean, there have been so, I mean, obviously, so many amazing monologues in film history. I mean, and this one I love because it is like, it's kind of that deranged,

it's that history of kind of like deranged storytelling, right? It's kind of like a little bit of that Robert Shaw in Jaws or Brando in Apocalypse. Like, were you thinking of those kind of reference? points a little bit? Yeah, yeah, I looked at those. Yeah, I, you know, in, in my monologue frenzy during the Gore-Vubinsky movie, because I had like five monologues in that movie, I, and kind of a monologue frenzy to make every monologue seem different in that movie, I started Googling great monologues. Yeah. Yeah. And those monologues would come up. All these of monologues would come up. Morgan Freeman and Shawshank with the parole board.

You know, Jack Nicholson, a few good men. Yep. Can't handle the truth. You know, then there was Rocky, Sylvester Stallone and like Rocky Five talking to his son, giving him like a pep talk. There's all these monologues, you know, because I had every kind of monologue in the score of Bermitsky movie. Yeah. Which is called Good Luck, Have Fun, Don't Die.

And so when we got to White Lotus, I was working on it in a certain way and my tendency was to do it kind of melancholy. And my acting coach cautioned me with that approach. You know, he said, no, no, it's really, you know, the character's enlightened. This is a good thing. This is a very positive thing. Right. He's not ashamed of this.

He's not ashamed of this at all. There's no shame. And I think there was a tendency to get sort of. of dark with it because of the material is so dark. And I really had to work to go against that. And then, you know, I'd already done sex addict research on choke, Chuck Palinick. I'd already done, like, sober research.

I'd done movies like drunks with Parker Posey, you know, gone to meetings. And, you know, I'd worked with Navy SEALs before and talked to Navy SEALs. And so the ex-military stuff was sort of there. talked about post-traumatic stress and stuff like that and then i the only thing left was the buddhism stuff which i really didn't know a lot about so i watched some documentaries i read up on a little bit and then you know the rest of it's on the page you know it's really about me and walt and what's on the page and so sorry yeah so just so i guess for the is you know you're there is something about life is preparing you for the next role

Right. You know, when I did Snow Angels, I'd already done, I'd already played Judas in the last days of Judas Ascariot. So I'd already gotten a sort of biblical New Testament tutorial from a Jesuit priest named James Martin, who's friends with Steve Colbert. And then I, he then helped me with the Snow Angels. So like, you know, you play Laertes and then you play Hamlet. You know what I mean? It's like that's the kind of thing that happens. You play Mercutio, then you play Yago.

So I think it really did. All those things led me up to this model. So I really only had like four weeks, I think, to prepare for it. And I made a joke that I might need an airwig or teleprompter. And they had an airwigs prepared for me. Brando. Yeah. Yeah.

And I didn't need it. But, you know, I was worried about the lines. And then we got it. Yeah. During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind

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hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Obviously mentioned Walton, who you've known for a while

and he's obviously been having a moment the last couple of years well-deserved. And you had a front-row seat to a meme that came a year-plus after you shot it. Do you remember watching his reaction and clocking it as something particularly noteworthy at the time? Wait, which one are we talking about? I'm talking about the reaction to your monologue, that kind of like the mouth agape thing has become this whole thing. Yeah, I mean, you can't do that monologue in a vacuum, you know, it has to be. be. Walt's character has his own monologue, inward monologue that he doesn't verbalize,

but there's a lot going on with Walt's character. Yeah, it's beautifully played by Walt, and we had a great time doing that. You know, Walt's got, you know, got the thing, a very genuine quality that is rare in actors. you see these days, I mean, Jeremy Runner has it. Hemsworth has a little bit of that kind of. It's just there's the kind of thing like, you know, Russell Crow or like Nick Nalti.

It's like this kind of like Nick Nalti thing. I can't. Well, it's a lived in quality, right? Yeah. You think it's like he was, it makes sense that at this age, this is kind of like when people are enjoying him because like he doesn't, at 22,

you don't want to see that guy. He probably had that quality at 22, and now it fits the body and who he is now. Yeah. You know, he plays the innocent and the apostle, the kind of, right. He plays this very innocent character in the apostle. Yeah, Walt and I met in Cowboys and Aliens, you know, and he became very good friends. Walt's just one of a kind. He's just got this thing.

You know, he comes from nothing. and his mother and him used to clog together clogging contests, you know, crazy. You can relate, having acted with your mom. Yeah, I acted with my mom. So we have a lot in common. We're both last key kids, you know. So we both worked in restaurants and we know, we know the deal. We both know what it's like to be broke.

And Walt and I have a lot in common. So we talk about stuff like that, you know. do you remember your audition days thankfully are long behind you do you remember the last time you had to audition you know i i always tell josh prolin i went in for his part no country for old men and right they got the right guy for the job you know um josh is was it was meant to be that was supposed to happen you know um but i remember going in for the callback for that and I was like, I had a cold. I think my girlfriend at the time had just broken up with me.

I was like, I'm not making excuses, but I was a little off my game. But I'm trying to think if that was the last time or if there was something else, it's probably something else. Was that the one and only Cohn Brothers close call you had? Because it feels like every after I'm sure you would want in on that. You know, I read for Tarturo's part. And, oh, brother, there was a moment where he was maybe not going to do it. They were negotiating his contract.

And so I went in for it. Got it. And I brought in my fake teeth from the Green Mile. And I did my sort of, you know, hillbilly thing. And didn't get that either. But John got it. John had it, really. But I think I made them laugh in that audition.

I remember being like. yeah you know um yeah and uh oh i think i i did i think i did do a song for oh inside blue and davis or yes yes i sang a song yeah yeah um i think my voice was a little too country and western for that movie right right right right who were the contemporaries you were often going up against back in the day like i was going up against well josh and i came from the same it was it was billy crudup uh leop schreiber

uh Jeffrey Wright Mark Ruffalo uh Renner and Shannon were a little younger um I think who else

there's a few others in there who else I'm leaving somebody out David Harbor was coming up and then um yeah a couple of guys older a couple of guys younger.

You know, Matthew McFad is a little, maybe a little younger. But yeah, Billy and I, Josh Hamilton, Frank Whaley, there was a bunch of people. Oh, Kevin Corrigan, Michael Imperioli, Michael Imperioli and I, and Kevin Corrigan drove in a van to New Jersey to audition for one line and lean on me. Sure. And I got it. and then they shut they could they never got to my scene so they had to let me go because they didn't want to pay me for a week so they got to pay for a day player or pay for me so they fired they let me go they just sort of let me go yeah

and because they were like oh we can't pay him a week for one line and then they hired michael and michael got michael's in the movie but i still got a special michael imperial And I still get residual checks for that, even though I'm not in it. And then I went and then they called me to do celebrity. Right. And I was part of DeCaprio's entourage. Right. And I had a few lines.

And they said, Woody wants you to dye your hair, bleach blonde. And I said, I'm not dyeing my hair, bleach blonde for like five lines. What are you crazy? And they're like, Woody wants you. you to do it. And I'm like, well, I'm not doing it. And they're like, well, Michael, Michael Imperiali was going to do it because he had dropped out. And I was replacing Michael because Michael was going to do a little pilot called Sopranos. Heard of it. Yep. That I heard what didn't go anywhere. Nope. But. And, uh, and so I said, all right, I'll dye my hair. And I died my,

bleached my hair. Were you thrilled when you got the head thug role in Teenage Mutant Ninja? Did you, did you, did you want a name? Did you have a backstory, a full name, character, art? I did not. I did not. I worked with Elias Cateas. I met Patty Clarkson down there in North Carolina. Josh Hamilton, my buddy was down there.

And we hung out with Keanu Reeves in North Carolina, in Wilmington, North Carolina. What were they making? What was going on that? Very nice guy, by the way. He was down there doing a movie with Peter, Peter Falk, Petty Clarkson. Okay. Anyway.

Elias Codeus was kind of a big deal at the time. He was someone that was kind of actors love. Would you call him Elis Cotis? Coteus? I've never spoken to the man. I don't know. How do you tell me? Elias Codius? Maybe it is Elias Coteus. I thought it was Elias Cottaeus.

But you're probably right. Elias Cotteris. You know what? I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Here's the important question. Did our last meaningful chat with our buddy, Justin Long, bear any fruit on the Galaxy Quest front? we help secret into the universe.

Any progress on giving birth to your galaxy? Is there a Gimp mask involved? Folks that don't know, there is context to that random aside by Sam Rockwell. Josh and I did a sketch. We did. You have to Google it. But anyway.

There's so many good things. Did you watch when I sent you the unearthed walk-in, Sam Rockwell gem, the conversation we had for, for, I was going to say, for Prometheus? that's tremendous that's one of the greats i sent that to him it's it's such it's an amazing that's an amazing conversation it really i've sent that around a lot um that's an amazing conversation that's uh that's pretty amazing that was for seven psychopaths that was a beautiful film a beauty was that the first time you met chris we've made a couple of great short films you and i though we've made a couple we've made some real real gems we're due for another one yeah um was that was that were you and

walk in first connected we we connected on we did a play together and then we did seven psychopaths oh the handing was before them yeah yeah but no justin did talk about galaxy quest and i don't know what's happening with that i kind of i hope that happens man it's time to get guy fleemann out again the world needs it yeah so uh we we always talk walk in i feel like you collected a new walkin in your life you worked with malkovich recently he's in that he's in that he's in that anthion did did he live up to everything that I hope and dream John Malkovich would bring to the table? He's incredible.

He's incredible. He works so hard. We had such a great time. He's just an amazing, beautiful actor. You know, he's a hero of mine and all these guys are. And, you know, yeah, John Tituro, Gary Oldman,

John Malkovich, Chris Walken. John and I had a great time. he was um he talked a lot about a lot of nerdy actor stuff yeah yeah yeah what were what were the was it film or theater roles or both i assume that you revered for him like what do you remember i saw him originally i saw him um in a in death of a salesman on television right they had filmed the stage play i'm and dustin hoffin and stephen lang and it was great cast and that sort of in high school i saw that

I did a monologue from it. And then I had then later, years later, I watched they film True West. And that's a famous, you know, that's a very famous production. And then I saw him live and burn this. So I initially, and then I saw places in the heart and the killing fields and, you know, stuff like that. Yeah. Did you ever, I make, my mind is floating around when you mentioned True West. Obviously, Phil Hoffman always comes up.

I saw Phil and John C. Riley when. And they were going back and forth. Incredible. Unbelievable. It's one of those. Incredible. Yeah. So Phil obviously always comes up in conversations.

Yeah. You bring him up all the time. You brought him up in the Oscar speech. Yeah, you never, I mean, he directed you, but you never got a chance to act with Phil, did you? Or am I missing something? No, I had two opportunities, maybe three. And they were squandered.

And I regret that. Yeah. Yeah, it's a couple of like Nick Nolte. I could have worked in Nicknulty, could have worked with Kurt Russell, really that kick of myself, Richard Jenkins. They're still out there. They're still out there this time. But yeah, Phil, yeah, we were very close. You know, we're good friends and he directed me.

He was one of the guys. He was the guy. He was the guy for a generation. Yeah. I mean, I mean, and I feel like I underestimated him at the beginning because to me he was like sent up a woman like baddie. I didn't realize what I was dealing with until he could. kind of accumulated the body of work and realized he could just do anything. Sure, sure.

Like, I don't know if there's an easy way to kind of encapsulate this, but why did you put him on a pedestal? What made him such a singular talent for you? You know, I think Chris Walkins said after he passed away, said that he was our Charles Lawton, he could have been our generation's Charles Lawton. And there was so much work ahead of him. And he was a young guy, and he was special that he was, he was, he was. he had the emotional power of a george s scott or john malcovich kind of emotional

ferocity yeah you know that kind of stuff that lorry metcalf does or gary oldman or john malcovich he had that emotional power yeah is what my teacher used to call it emotional power and then he also was transformational and he could he could transform and he was um you know know, I mean, he could be a baseball coach. He could be Truman Capote. Yeah. Also, could be so vulnerable, like, right? Like, Magnolia, happiness.

Yeah. Yeah. He's like, these, like, open wounds. I mean, happiness, incredible. Yeah, I mean, I mean, the vulnerability, the humiliation and happiness that he goes through, you know, like. That's a brave. And boogie nights.

Boogie nights, like, blew our socks off, you know. You know, that's really the big, you know, when you see a Robert Duvall, a Morgan Freeman who plays the president of the United States and he plays fast black and street smart you know Cheatel and devil in a blue dress

or whatever, what have you and Phil same thing man you know Robert Duval Merrill Streep this kind of transformational chamellian like skills they have is really

it's the mayor It's the true merit of an actor, I think, when you can pound for pound, you know, Brando's, you know, he's had it all. But it's like, can you transform? Can you do have this emotional power? Yeah. Yeah. And then if you're, yeah, you know what I mean? Totally.

I mean, a different kind of actor you mentioned already, to me, at least, and you worked with him was Gene Hackman. You worked with Gene on Heist, the mammoth film. And he's the one that I always brought. bring up, I mean, Gary Oldman always brings him up, many actors bring him up. Like he, it's good to talk about him because he just passed, yeah. Just passed. And like for me, you know, outside looking in, no false notes. That guy just like, I believed anything he did. I didn't, I don't necessarily see him. And this is not like a demarred at all as a chameleon. He just like, he was truth. He was just like kind of like that

lived in guy. And he could do, he could do shades of that. But like I said, I never saw anything come out of his mouth that didn't feel real. What, I mean, what was your experience watching him up close and? He was amazing, you know, he was able to draw boundaries with people, but then, but also just, I saw him kind of protect himself from what can happen on a set often is that, um people don't really understand what you're doing uh often you know not not everybody is alan pec you know or sidney lamet you know i mean like often uh some of the best directors are not necessarily actor friendly and so that goes for every department and they they don't

and it's fine they don't need to understand what i'm doing uh but i think that you have to um you have to give him an awareness of it and sometimes i see i saw him a couple of times like just ask for space you know right this was a mammett and mammoth famously is kind of like say the words do just say the words say the words and stand here and you know he's a he's a he's wonderful i mean he's done some great movies and he's great plays obviously but um but yeah it's just a different headset you know and no one it's hard to understand what the actor's headset is and so she uh you know

he kept very quiet he was very quiet and then he would crack jokes his standin was like one of his best friends and they would hang out his next baseball player he told me some great jokes and we he gave me some advice here and there you know i remember going up to him and i needed some help and um He also wanted me to bring it, you know. He wanted me to bring it. He wasn't afraid of a good tennis player opposite him. You know what I mean? He knew that would bring that the best in him probably.

Yeah, you know, and same thing with somebody like Malkovich or Chris Walken. It's the same thing, Francis McDormat, whatever. They know they're not threatened by someone who's going to pass the ball. and um you know um that's that's really that takes great confidence and knowing a lot about the art form of what what it what it entails that it's it's it takes a village you know yeah it's you need a good you need a good tennis player you know right i'm sure there's a lot of insecurity for for younger actors in particular that think they have to kind of like own they have to win the scene they have to kind of yeah yeah yeah yeah

it's not about that with it wasn't about that with him yeah and yeah i just watched scarecrow man again you know and i was watching royal tanem bombs you know i mean i mean jesus christ he was a monster yeah he's a monster he's probably one of the probably yeah one of the three or four five greatest actors on the planet earth yeah When your investors, customers, and workers demand more from your business, make it happen with SAP. The AI-powered capabilities of SAP can help you streamline costs, connect with new suppliers, and manage payroll, even when your business is being pulled in different directions. To deliver a quality product at a fair price, while paying your people what they're worth too, so your business can stay unfazed. Learn more at SAP.com slash uncertainty.

You can get protein at home Or a protein latte at Tim's No powders, no blenders, no shakers Starting at 17 grams per medium latte Tim's new protein lattes Protein without all the work At participating restaurants in Canada Let me throw out a couple random

For you that we've never talked about in depth We've never talked Charlie's Angels And that was such a big one for you at the time There was a rumor that maybe They're doing another one with Drew and Lucy and Cameron, but I don't know. You hear that? They've been trying to. Yeah, it sounds like they've been rumbling from recent years.

I wouldn't surprise me. Was that a big deal for you? I mean, you have such a nice turn in that. Like, I mean, I was just watching on YouTube, like the scene where you kind of, you reveal as the bad guy is a fun kind of like one, like a oneer that turns on you. There's a little dancing to music and you kind of get to like show your true colors. What are your memories of taking that one? Well, you know, I have to say, you know,

that was a very much Nancy Giovon and Drew Barrymore and McGee, you know, they really created an environment. I came on early with that thing. And I had a lot of people tell me like, including

I think Phil, like don't do that. I think Phil said don't do that. And then I brought Phil to the premiere at the Ziegfield. And Phil never would admit that he was wrong. And he said, you know what? I was wrong. this was a good idea.

That movie works. Yeah. Yeah, it really works. And everybody was like, you know, there was like 16, 17 writers. Yeah. Yeah. And I think only one of them was a woman. Yeah.

And that's a movie about women, you know? And, you know, I met Nancy Gibbonne, and she talked about a few things. And then he said, you know, you should meet McGee. He's doing Charlie's inches. Matt McGee, we talked about all these weird references. He said, listen, the script is not ready. Do you want to just go in and read with through? We can keep it loose.

I said, well, yeah, but what are we going to read if the script's not really ready? And he said, and we were talking about the movie Foul Play. I love that movie. Yeah, Chevy Chase. And we were talking about Chevy Chase and Goldie Hawn on the boat, you know, the scene where he's in the robe. and they've gotten and um there's a couple of great lines in that um but he we so we said let's just read the scene from foul play and that was my audition for charlie's angels and then i think i brought

somebody brought a like a boom box and put some music on drew and i danced and that was my audition and then it was sort of on and we wanted to we said let's do this kind of like um spike Jones, Bill Gates kind of guy who is kind of like turns into Richard Gear and American Gigolo or Ray Leota

and something wild. And that was the pitch for the character. And we were trying to figure out a way to do that reveal. And then my friend and I were playing music and we found that Marvin Gay song. gotta give it up. And I think we pitched that to McGee and got to give it up was the song where the character literally transitions into the bad guy. And we had this like muscle tea and he'd

been wearing this loose clothing up until then. And it just was, it was a very clever idea. And I don't know how we pulled it off, but we did. And we just made him kind of crunchy before that. It's fun because it's like, yeah, as an actor, you kind of like immediately alter kind of like your physicality and that tells everything, right? Like you're like, oh, shit, like this is the guy. We were definitely trying to do a Kaiser-Oseusay thing. And it kind of worked.

And then, you know, Drew had sent us this VHS tape. That's how long ago this was with all these inspiration clips, like a reel of inspiration and it was everything from greece to um anime to like uh saturday night fever to i mean it was everything i'd love to see that real right now and see what that's i'd love to see that yeah um because she put it together and it was it was really you sort of got the tone yeah and the tone was weird man the tone was weird it was not clear You know, it was like popcorn meets cutesy meets Bill Murray's Crispin, you know, Crispin Glover's in it and fucking, it's wacky thing. It was a wacky movie.

It's a wacky movie that it works, frankly. It's a miracle of a movie. It's everything you talked about. It's nuts. The movie is nuts. Yeah, it shouldn't work. It shouldn't work. But it does.

And then it collapsed in the second one because that kind of thing only happens once. Sure. Sure. Right. Sure. Exactly. What do you think of? We talked a little bit back in the day, but now it's been 15 years since Iron Man 2.

Can you believe that? Iron Man 2. years old. Oh, my God. Which was also a little bit of a wild, like, script and progress. That's another one where I felt as safe in a very, in the studio world was with John Fabro and Justin Thoreau, you know. Even though the script was moving, you felt safe because they were smart guys and they

would figure it out. Yeah, I felt safe there because Thoreau had written a script. You know, that was really interesting because Mickey Rourke, well, first of all, you know, You know, I used to just go over to Thoreau's place where we met in Williamstown doing theater and friends with Billy Crudov. I was with him in 9-11, him and Billy in Toronto. So we were all friends and then he had written Tropic Thunder with Ben Stiller. And then I knew he was, I heard he was going to do Iron Man too. He was going to write it.

And so I would go over to his house a lot and we'd make strong cough. and smoke cigarettes, roll up, roll cigarettes. And I said, where are you going? I said, I got to go. I'm going to go in L.A. I'm like, where are you going? I'm going to write Iron Man, too. I'm like, you're kidding me.

Oh, that's amazing. I love Iron Man. I want to be in it. He's like, well, I'm like, well, why don't you guys write me apart as the bad guy or something? He's like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. So now I had, I was already dating Leslie and I had been with them. right before the opening night of the first Iron Man and they were very nervous about it.

We were at this dinner and they were like, I don't know. And then of course it exploded, you know. And so I love the movie. I really, really thought that movie that obviously reinvented the genre. And, you know, then now you got Deadpool and all this stuff. So it should be said just for context also, I'm wrong.

You were, you had a moment. You talked to Favreau. no, you didn't officially auditioned, but he talked to you about. Okay, so very strange, because I was also doing a movie called G-Force. Yes. With Zach Galefinacus, where Favaro and I played guinea pigs, okay? So, somehow, I wanted to get in the room with the actors, which I like to do with this animated stuff. So I try to get in the ride, Anthony Ramos and Zazi Beats and, like,

Nora Aquafino we got in the room and we do the voices and I did that with Favaro as the guinea pigs and we actually actually the guinea pigs are like fighting but so like Favro and I were like wrestling on the ground and you know it was like we had mics on us and so so he says so we do like I think we did one or two sessions like that and after Seroa went to L.A I guess he pitched me for the bad guy and Fabra said, why don't we split the bad guy into two bad guys? And we'll have like a, we'll have like a Frankenstein's monster and then like a Frankenstein. Right. And so, so it was kind of like, yeah, Lex Luther and, you know, whatever. So the brains and the brain became the muscle, brains and bronze. So, although Mickey's kind of the brains too.

But so then, anyway, this is sorry. This is a long story, but basically, he said, come meet, you know, the marble guys. So they came to the fucking G-Force session, met with them, and then it was kind of happening. And then Justin wrote this great monologue. And then they changed the lines. And we had to write a speech at lunch, and I had to use an airwig. And Mickey was speaking in Russian. But we shot the whole thing in order.

And Mickey didn't want to meet me until. we were on film. He wanted our characters to meet on film. No rehearsal. And that's what happens. The first time you see our characters meet on film, that's the first time I ever met Mickey. And the cameras are rolling. And we had a great time. And then because we were shooting in order, our scenes, we could kind of do whatever we want narrative-wise. So he said, like, I want my parrot in the movie. And then Favre was like, all right, we'll put your parent in the movie. Yeah. I remember. he brought his little chihuahua, I think, on his water. Yeah, there you go. So that was a really, that was a very actor-friendly experience. So, but I mentioned it, but am I wrong? Was there a real conversation for Iron Man at any point, like before Iron Man? Oh, yeah, there was, but it was very brief.

I talked to Fabro because I'd done made with Fabro and Peter Billingsley, and they, they called me, they said, would you be interested? I said, yeah, sure, you know, and they said, well, we're talking to some people. And then I think I think basically Downey did kiss kiss bang bang and he screen tested and then he got the part

but yeah there was a brief conversation yeah and I said I don't know what I said so the last few years Justin Hammer keeps coming back up as like rumored to come back like Armour Wars is this thing

that's going to be a series or a movie or we don't know like have well yeah there was there was talk of a series but I think the movie thing would be exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a character that there's still some juice to be squeezed from. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what you get out of that guy. I mean, he's essentially Lex Luthor. It's Gene Hackman, Lex Lutzer. Right, right, right. It's the same character, really. So, yeah, it's a comedic device, the character, you know, mostly.

Although he was in prison, so I could get weird. I don't want to take up too much of your time, buddy, but I do want to mention, you mentioned the Gore-Vubinsky film, which sounds right up my alley. Dude, it's so cool, man. So cool. You've been referencing one of my favorites

of all-time Terry Gilliam, and again, speaking my language. So this is a little weird, a little future time travel, AI, all over the place kind of thing. Oh, dude, it's so cool, man. I can't wait for people to see this movie. Yeah.

Yeah, it's time travel film. Yeah, it's cool. It's in the vein of everything everywhere all at once or back to the future. And, you know, it's like that kind of thing. All right. And then it's been a couple years since the last stage work. Anything on the horizon? Yeah, we're thinking about some Arthur Miller maybe.

Maybe in the, yeah, maybe. Let's see. We'll see what shakes. We're thinking death of a salesman. View from the Bridge. What are we thinking? the bridge, yeah. From the bridge, yeah.

Amazing. Amazing. All right, I'm going to end with this. This is the happy, say I can fuse profoundly random questions, Sam. You ready for this? Yeah. This is the important stuff. We know the answer to this.

Maybe not given your park experience today. Dogs or cats? Dogs. Gus is on the shit list, but yes. What do you collect, if anything? Um... Oh, God. I don't, I try not to, but I do have, I do have some DVDs and some comic books, but I, I don't really, try not to collect.

All right. Very Buddhist of you. You adopted your character's tendencies. Favorite video game of all time? Asteroids. Classic. This is the Dakota Johnson Memorial question. She asked me this once.

Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one B in your butt? Is she asked you that? Yeah. Obviously. Why is that weird? Would I have a mouth full of bees or a bees? I think a bee in my butt. I think a bee in my butt.

I think so too. That's the general consensus. Yeah. Because it's one B versus a bunch of bees, too. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. What's the, what's the wallpaper on your phone?

The wallpaper is Muhammad Ali. Last actor you were mistaken for? Either Christian Slater or Dana Carvey. That runs the guy. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Sure.

Not bad. What's the worst note a director has ever given you? More energy. Not helpful. Not helpful. What do you say back? By the way, you hear that a lot. I say, you do it.

I say, let's switch sides. How about that? I say, give me some more coffee. Give me an eight ball of cocaine. And happy, sad,

confused, an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen. You're immediately happier. I'm sure it's a long list. Oh, my God. I'm going to go with... I'm going to go with Jim Carrey. Great.

Yeah. Yeah. Or Eddie Murphy. It's a fine line. Yeah. I don't know. That's a tough one. There's a lot out there.

Too many. What's a movie that always makes you sad? Yeah. A movie that makes you sad. Oh, geez. Sad. Well, you know, Sophie's choice. You know, Deer Hunter.

Yeah. But when I get sad, I'm kind of, I kind of like being sad. So it's different, but I'm an actor. So I like to be sad. It's your fuel. Yeah. I get it. Yeah.

Yeah. And finally, a food that makes you confused, Sam. You don't get it. Why do people eat that? Oh, okay. They're confused why people eat the food. Not literally confused because you eat it. You could go that way, too, if you want.

Yeah. I'm confused. well can you get me an example what about you give me an example oh yeah like i mean it's more things you just don't like i don't get i don't get i don't get oh interesting i like beats okay it's an acquired taste yeah you know like olives interesting i'll find the olives themselves no good really interesting um let's see okay i don't get muscles see i disagree respectfully but okay okay you like muscles yeah so you got a grow up on stuff like that, I think.

Yeah, it's ingrained. I mean, I wouldn't say my parents were rearing me on muscles. Like, every day, eat your muscles, Josh, but I did have them once or twice, yeah. Time for bed. Don't forget your muscles. I was not raised on beats either, but I do like beats. It was like a little judgment in the voice, a little bit of like, I'm better than you, Josh, at the end. that's okay we we had 45 happy minutes and one really really tense minute at the end it's okay uh well they're good for you josh no there was no judgment okay it's interesting

you heard that yeah i felt it uh congratulations my friend uh white lotus you kill it as you always do but this one this one in particular was a nice surprise for the world thanks you're you're amazing we should mention leslie your partner obviously amazing in this show as well Amazing, amazing, probably one of the more likable characters, too. And then I think some of your short films prepared me for the White Lotus monologue, if I may be so bold. If people want to see even weird or shit from Sam Rockwell, Google, Josh Harrelitz, Sam Rockwell, MTV, Comedy Central.

You'll see the real interesting stuff. A little post-traumatic stress, actually. All right. Yeah. Thank you, buddy, as always. Thanks, buddy. Be well. Talk to you soon.

All right, man. I'll see you later. All right, talk to you like. Thanks, buddy. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pushing to do this by Josh. The Old West is an iconic period of American history and full of legendary figures whose names still resonate today. Like Jesse James, Billy the. Kid and Butch and Sundance, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Wyatt Earp, Batmasterson, and Bass Reeves, Buffalo Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, the Texas Rangers, and many more. Hear all their stories on the Legends of the Old West podcast. We'll take you to Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge City, to the plains, mountains, and deserts for battles between the U.S.

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