Happy Sad Confused - Sean Penn

Episode Date: March 28, 2018

Strap yourself in for a chat with one of the greats. Two time Academy Award winner Sean Penn pays his first visit to "Happy Sad Confused" to spread the good word about his debut novel, "Bob Honey Who Just Do Stuff".  In this conversation, Penn opens up about the reasons he's turning away from acting for the solitary pursuit that is writing. But of course Josh takes the opportunity to explore some of Penn's most notable collaborations, from Woody Allen to David Fincher. Plus Penn reminisces about random phone calls from Marlon Brando, the importance of his mentor, Jack Nicholson, and so much more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Happy Say Confused, Sean Penn on his debut novel, Giving Up Acting and just being Sean fucking Penn, guys. Hey, everybody, I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad Confused. I'm sorry for the profanity right off the bat, but it's Sean Penn, guys.

Sean effing Penn. Flying Solo for the podcast intro today. Sammy is otherwise occupied, sad to say, because I need someone to talk to about this. Sean Penn just left my office. We had a lovely chat. I was nervous about this one. Last time I was this nervous was Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. And, you know, similar to those two, you know, icons, and they are icons, Sean Penn is an icon.

And he did intimidating dude. I've never spoken to him before. We cover a lot in this conversation. His new book is called Bob Honey Who Just Do Stuff. It is out right now. It's a quick read. It's a fun, bizarre read.

It almost defies description. It's a novel about a septic tank salesman slash assassin. It deals with very topical issues. You know, it touches a little bit on Me Too and our crazy commander-in-chief, perhaps. And it's out there. You're going to like Sean Penn. I think you're going to either love this thing or it's just not going to be for you. But if you do want to sit and luxurate in in Sean Penn's brain for a few hours,

this is the best way to do it. Besides listening to this podcast, of course, it's to go out and buy Bob Honey who just do stuff. Sean is very passionate about this new project. And we talk at length about that and why he is focusing on writing right now. And of course, we do talk about where he is in his acting career. And if you may have heard that he is talking very seriously about giving up acting. He's talked about this in the past, to be fair. And maybe this won't last forever.

But he is serious about kind of falling out of love with acting. And he details the reasons why in this conversation. But, you know, just because he's not in love with acting and film doesn't mean I couldn't let this opportunity go by and not talk about some of his genius work as an actor. And we cover a fair amount. You know, we cover some of his notable collaborations, Terrence Malick and Woody Allen and Brian De Palma. You know, the list goes on and on. And also to talk to Sean Pan is to talk to somebody that's kind of a kind of a custodian and kind of a, the latest in a lineage of great actors. And he has deep connections with some of the past generations.

He was very good friends with Marlon Brando. He's very good friends with Jack Nicholson to this day. So some really fascinating, interesting anecdotes, including Sean Penn's Marlon Brando impression. I don't know if I've ever heard that. This might be an exclusive. So he's a fascinating guy. I know he's divisive to some. Count me in the camp that admires Sean Penn as an actor, as an activist, as an iconoclast.

He's a smart, intimidating dude, and I was thrilled to welcome. him to the office and to have this very fascinating, to say the least, chat. So I'm going to leave it at that and let you guys enjoy this conversation. Remember to enjoy his new book, Bob Honey, who just do stuff. It is out in bookstores. If a bookstore still exists near you or on Amazon and all those other kind of fun places, you can buy it online. And of course, remember to spread the good word of the podcast. Remember to review, rate and subscribe on iTunes. Spread the good word of happy, say confused. It means a lot to me. So thanks in advance. Here it is, Sean Penn. Sean Penn, welcome to my office. Thank you very much. This is a real distinct pleasure and

an honor. The book is, I don't know why I'm holding it up as if there's a camera, but I will for your benefit, Bob Honey, who just do stuff. I enjoyed it. It's a wild ride. And, and And, yeah, I mean, first, I guess my first thought or question for you is, you know, whenever you have a new project, whether it's a book or a film, I think you know this by now. You're a divisive figure, Mr. Sean Penn. People seem to, for whatever reason, go to polar extremes when your name is brought up. Is that something that you've reconciled at this point? Is that something that you remember a time before that happened?

I'm just curious of sort of like how you absorb the extreme way people react to you. Well, I think, you know, reconciliation with it certainly is a piece of my life. And yet there's the part of it as a person among a world of people where I think we all should be considering ways in which we discourage divisiveness. And this book, Bob Honey, who just do stuff, while I'm sure for the reckless reader may seem, again, divisive, the hope or the offering is that there's a humor in the division. and that where there's humor, perhaps there's less division.

Right. It's funny because I was thinking that when I was reading the book, this sense of humor in the book, which is clearly self-evident if you read it, isn't really noticeable in the films you've directed, I would say. I haven't noticed this kind of tone. Should that surprise me? Do you have a different mindset when you are approaching filmmaking as opposed to sitting down and pondering something like this?

You know, it's a funny thing. We've always heard, talked about, discuss, you know, say a writer like Hemingway and how detail-oriented in description, a writer like that might be, and equating that with imagery. But it's a different imagery, isn't it, than the imagery we use when we're reading a book,

and it's a different imagery than we use when we're writing a book. We're much more able, especially when writing something fictional and in some kind of a peaker-esque or satire, where it's much closer to dream imagery. Sure. There are filmmakers who work quite intentionally in dream imagery. That's not been the thrust of the work that I've done in film,

nor was it what drew me most as a filmmaker in film, though I can be drawn to it as an audience. But as it turned out, when I shut off the concerns of the money demands on a film, the restrictions, the things that I didn't know how to do, perhaps, as a filmmaker, when I started to dream as a writer, it started to be something much closer to, you know, a dream world. Yeah. Now, as I was reading it, I was like, you know, of course, my mind goes to films. As you can tell, I'm steeped in it. It's like, oh, this is, if someone was going to direct this, this is a Terry Gilliam. This is Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

This is what, that's the kind of imagery that's popping up. It's so, you know, I enjoy the book, but if you asked me to kind of summarize the book, it's a tough one. Well, you could sympathize with what I'm going through on book tour now. I'm sure. So I wouldn't even ask you to, I mean, I mean, but it does seem like, is it fair to say that this was your way, We all kind of processed recent events, 2016, in different ways. This was your kind of way of processing and turning the upheaval of the world into art? Well, I suppose that certainly was a driving force.

I've talked lately a lot about something that I've thought for a long time. You know, I was, when I came into any kind of activism or otherwise, trying to work for a greater good in my own little way. It was never compulsory. And I have always believed that that mandatory service is something that we're really missing in this country. And when I saw the country seemingly move in directions that were not going to serve their best interests in the electorate,

out of anger, out of pain, out of nowhere else to go but to kind of kick a tree, it occurred to me that that doesn't happen where people have had an experience when they're very young, where they have significantly found that they themselves can make a difference, that those things stay with them, and people I know, whether they were working in forestry at a young age or care for the elderly or in the military who had an opportunity to do something for someone else and see that they themselves can have an individual effect, I think that stays with them forever. And that then you never feel the hopelessness that clearly was felt in these last couple of

years and increasingly is felt in the country. Your parents were both, and your mom still around, I know, in the industry, part of acting, etc. Were they also activists? I mean, your dad was blacklisted, correct? Was that something was activism talked about? Was it passed down as a young man that this was a responsibility to be an active participant in the world and to engage with the world around you? Not by demand, but by example. Right. Yeah. And did you, you know, there's been a lot of talk about your on and, on again, off again, love affair with acting over the years. And this is anything new, I should say. I mean, I went back and looked at interviews and I was telling you

before I, you know, I worked at Charlie Rose and I remember you talking to Charlie about this years back. I mean, at least 20 years you've been talking about. It's been a wrestling match for a while. Yeah. Yeah. The, when, do you regret going into acting? Do you regret pursuing acting as your life's work, at least for a period of time? You know, if you ask me this question in a couple or more years, I may have a different answer to it. But as it is, it would be very difficult for me to say that I regret something that's given me so much opportunity in so many ways. And where I've gotten to meet and work with and co-create things that, in many cases, I'm very proud of the collaborations that I've been able to take part in. But that's the very

word that at a certain point, you know, there's a collaboration is, are these various creative families and there's a moment where in expression I think one hungers um to go out on the road on their own right and there's no way to do that like a picking up a guitar and writing a song but I can't do that this is your so I went out and wrote a novel so give me a I mean when I was reading this I like I was envisioning you like in a room either cackling to yourself or beating your head against the wall, maybe sometimes a combination of both. Was this an enjoyable process not to have to lean on people that you may respect,

but you inevitably might butt heads with? Give me a sense of how freeing or how different this process felt for you. Every part of that question is extremely astute. But I'll address the principle and part of it, which is my children throughout their childhood, and still today, they're 24 and 26, would always call attention to the fact that in their view, their father found himself funny

whether or not others did. And when he might get a reaction that was genuine out of them would then take the joke too far and kill it. I didn't have them in the room either, and I cackled and cackled and cackled. Your own best audience? Yes. So having said this is a solitary pursuit, do you have a collective that you can rely on that will call you out on your shit, whether it's writing that doesn't work or? Oh, yes.

Yeah, because I also, because it's rhythmic and because I have to get back in the rhythm, I'm often dependent on people I work with. And by work with now, I'm talking about, for example, what the assistance I dictate to, because I often work by dictation, or my high school friend, Matt Paul Mary, who lives two doors down, I'll call him and force him to listen to what I, the last two pages that I wrote. And once you have someone in front of you, just to begin with, before they say anything, you know that you have expected understanding of the material by osmosis in certain areas, and you make notes and you refine. And then, yes, they'll ask questions and so on. So I do, yeah, I do a lot of that. And then, in the end, I had such a lucky experience from what I'm told because this is my first book and therefore my first editor, Peter Borland. And it was so refreshing to work with somebody who's every comment was to question or service

the book as I intended it, not to take it off course, which so on. often as the case when you're talking to film producers or collaborators in that in that you know kind of self-censoring and and pandering largely pan moving and moving closer toward pandering for for commerciality it does seem though I mean when I look at it's particularly at your directing work it feels like for the most part and you can correct me if I'm wrong that you hit pretty close to the mark of what seemed to be in your heart and your intention are you talking more about acting and producing and other kind of ventures, or were the directing efforts for the most part or exclusively such happy experiences? They were very, very happy, and they fulfilled that moment's need for great

collaborations. I never directed a movie by myself. I directed a movie with the influence of the instincts of great and encouraging actors and cinematographers and production designers. And, you know, I remember one time being in a rehearsal with Al Pacino. And there was a writer involved who just wasn't responsive to any of the ideas. We were at a table reading, to any of the ideas either he or I had. And I said, is this guy not listening to anything either? And I thought, maybe I won't listen to me, but God damn, he's going to listen to Al Pacino. And he leaned over to me, and he said, he doesn't understand that Attica,

Attica came from a grip. That's amazing. Is that true? That's amazing. It's a great story. So there's a grip on the set. He had this story to tell and that became that scene. So, you know, that's its own great journey when you have those kind of collaborations. But again, this was me not wanting to collaborate. I kind of consider it. What I say is, you know, the greatest strength you have is

to play well with others when you're doing that. And increasingly, I, you know, was finding myself having to work very hard in my head against the wind to play well with others. It wasn't making me happy. Right. When you look at the book and you look at the blurbs on the back, I take a delight in the fact that this has entertained both Salman Rushdie and Sarah Silverman,

so it can't be all bad if it contains that kind of group. I like to imagine you going through your Rolodex and deciding who to hit up for a blurb. How did you arrive at who to kind of like say, yeah, you know, I'd like to hear their take on it? What, you know, what really happened is that we talked

at some point, there was someone from the, you know, when we were talking about the show, they were showing me a version of the cover of the book from their art department, Simon & Schuster, and someone came in who was part of the marketing department. But this is way ahead of publishing date. And I said, you know, well, I don't know who you guys think of that way, you know, but I could probably send it to a few people.

And it was, I was over-enthusiastic about it because I realized that in the last week before the cover, the jacket of the book was printed, I wasn't embarrassed to ask, it wasn't embarrassed of the work. No, sure. But to ask someone to read a book, it's like handing somebody a puppy in a public place and saying, here's a present, just leaving them with it. Ask someone to read a book is already difficult. to ask them to read your first book and if they like it to maybe give you a blurb and put them in a position where if they don't like it they've got to be polite in some forced way and all of that stuff just makes me cringe and so it was in the very last days I thought well here are ten people who I could you know certainly write a note too I didn't know them all or know them all well and um you

In the case of Sarah, I'd met her a few times and a nice conversation with her once years ago at some kind of a function and that's as well as I knew her. And so I just lucked out that Samar Rushdie and she were that gracious is to say yes, I'll read that book, to read it, and then to be so generous with sharing their response to it. If you'll indulge me a little bit,

because I have to ask you about the, acting career because I'm, you know, I revere so much of your work. And it's, I don't know how you reconcile it or how it sits with you now in terms of the place in your life. But there's some amazing work that some attention should be paid to. I mean, do, is there a time where you were happiest as an actor where you felt it was fulfilling and it was a collaboration in particular that felt right and true and honest and all the good adjectives? Yeah. And it goes to simple, like three, four simple things. One is the material, the director, and your co-actors.

And in times where I worked, for example, with David Rabe in the theater, I had extraordinary experiences that were really everyday, fascinating and exciting, challenging. working with Alejandro Gonzalez, seniority do in film was among those kinds of experiences. A director, while extraordinarily demanding, was always demanding of himself equally to or more than anyone else around him. That scenery too?

Yeah, and so you're just in a great situation. Yeah, but, you know, rarer and rarer. I think are those opportunities. I just saw a movie that's not out yet. I think it's out in October or something that Bradley Cooper directed. How are you talking about this? That's amazing. It reminded me of, you know, that experience in the 70s cinema in America

where any week you'd go, it was a new kind of event that you'd remember forever. And the act, the everything about it is so stellar and it's that it's moving. And it's why I talk about it. I'm just a thrill that here you have a guy who has been increasingly a movie star and that he, you know, with this secret that he was, you know, one of the great directors in Hollywood and he kept it secret because he hadn't directed anything. And now he has and I'm anxious to see how the world reacts. The, a few filmmakers that I do want to mention in addition to the ones you just name checked. Um, you worked with Dr. Brian DePalma twice. Yeah.

In particular, you know, I love Carlito's way. I think Carlito's way. Just a sheerly entertaining. Just Al's amazing at it. You're amazing in it. And DePaul's like a tough director. He's like he doesn't get along with everybody. He's a pretty tough cookie, as are you.

Did you guys gel in a way? Did you feel like you were in safe hands with him? And did that feel like a positive collaboration? Well, yes, it did feel like a positive. What Brian is, he's a highly intelligent, constructor of films. And he's very assured and very imaginative. It's a different language than I naturally relate to.

Right. But my relay, I mean, I had, and with actors, what he does afford you is, you know, if he believes what you're doing, then what's important is that you're somewhere within the right place in the frame he's composed. Right. you don't he's not get you know very interested in what color socks you're wearing that aren't showing in a character choice and there's something kind of refreshing about that sometimes also but but no i had two experiences with brian because they were good experiences uh fincher another one who some of the descriptions you just made about diploma could probably apply to david fincher as well in terms of just being a master with the camera and and clearly uh knowing what he wants and breaking down actors in a way. I know that's his technique to sort of just keep going and going and going until your defenses, I think, are down. I don't know if that's... Well, in our case, that wasn't my

experience. But, you know, he was very... You do a lot of takes, let's say. But he was what it was, rather than bringing an actor down, he clearly had a lot of very specific dynamics that each frame was telling him. And he would go back to a trailer, let's say, at a lunch break. And when he would come out, he would already know which take of a master he was going to use. So then you'd be talking and matching to that take. He, again, very assured. But I didn't work with him very long. I don't have a great story to tell because I only worked a short time on the game with him.

I'm still looking for that T-shirt. I was left for dead in Mexico and all, like, a, I was this lousy t-shirt. I feel like someone needs to sell that at some point. In a much different way, your experience with Woody Allen, who, you know, I've talked to many actors who've worked with him, and he's, again, very unique in the way that he doesn't really interact that much with actors. I don't know if your experience was different. I mean, did you find Woody to be an odd experience or a pleasurable one? You obviously got a lot of great critical claim from Sweden Lowdown.

Well, I think, you know, that film was much more of a character piece, a single character piece, than most of his. his films which are ensemble driven and because of that I think you know I tend to think we had more interaction at the same time Woody while being you know clearly one of the great film writers that we've had in modern film at his best is extraordinary he's not precious about his words like some you know younger writers may be who don't have the security of it And so there's an enormous amount of freedom and God knows the base stuff you've got is So I felt very free on his set

It was a very good experience It was a little bit difficult because While it was a let's say what you'd call a felt comedy It was so there was so much that we were enjoying doing And then my father died during the making of that film And then to do to go back to California, you know, to be with family for a period of time and then to come back and to jump back into the spirit of this comedy was once a kind of, you know, probably a kind

of merciful thing because of the tone of it. But at the same time, you'd really rather be anywhere but there. Be anywhere but at work. Yeah. Yeah. What do you, what is your take on kind of the current reevaluation of Woody Allen's work? It seems like there's, I mean, you've talked a little bit about the Me Too movement and the complexities that go along with. with that. It seems like there are some people that are basically done with Woody and don't want him to work anymore, don't want to even look back at his work. It's a big subject, but I'm just curious as someone that's... You know, look, one will either have to forgive me or not forgive me for not knowing with certainty what happened in that backstory. So

that's a story that I'm afraid if I'm going to be reassessing my evaluation of Woody Allen I'm going to have to have a different story than the one that I do know which was an extraordinary one and that he is an extraordinary artist who has given so

much that at the very least you know I don't know his daughter the tale that she tells if true is is of course devastating sure. And so, but, but that, I'm, my bandwidth is not such that I can just say, you know, that this happened, and I had a very good experience working with Woody Allen. And I think, you know, it, whatever happened, it's a terrible shame that we're not, you know, likely to see many more Woody Allen films. Right. You do, when you walked in, I, you know, I reminisce with you a little bit that the first time I was in your proximity was working at the Charlie Rose Show where I worked for four years right out of college. And, you know, I know you and Charlie were, I don't know your current status, but like we're friendly. And he obviously was great at what he did. I have very complex feelings about that, given it he gave me my start in my career. You do name check Charlie in the book. And I don't know if you're speaking for yourself or in character. But it seems like there is some sympathy.

for his situation in the book. Is that fair to say? Were you speaking from your own perspective? Well, no, the book is not an opinion piece. However, you know, I think that if we just talk about what we've lost, we've lost an extremely valuable form for dialogue that took his particular talent or takes his particular talent and his particular knowledge and diligence to create such a form.

It's not something that is easily replaced. And I think never more did a movement, be it me too or any need such thoughtful forms as he provided. So I'm talking about what we're missing and leaving it to the reader to apply a balance. or not apply a balance to it. Right. Are you... So at this stage, so you're... It's funny, you kind of alluded to this.

Like, you're a very kind of interesting mix of contradictions. Like, right, you are one of our greatest actors, and arguably, and yet you have this kind of love, hate, affair with acting. You clearly have no love for commercialism and advertising, and yet, you know, here you are, and you have to, kind of like, spread the good word of your book. is this a little bit easier for you than the last couple times you kind of did the publicity circuit for for films does it feel like this is feels more of a worthy cause for lack of a better term well it's nice to be you know the only one involved with the project that that I would likely disappoint you know if there was disappointing to do it's part of it's part of the the finality of my love affair with collaboration is that I found that I was

increasingly working with colleagues where they were more interested in the selling of a film right in the making of one and it it became very saddening thing to me it was as though a kind of air had gone by and I didn't know when it folded out and then in this case there is none of that. I mean, of course, I would love people to give this book a chance and read it and see if they enjoyed it. At the same time, you know, nothing really changes for me. And with a film, you know, you're kind of so aware of how hard everyone around you worked and when a film doesn't work or an audience dismisses it or critics dismiss it. But in this case, it's all

kind of, you know, interesting. It can be a little more detached in a unique way. Yeah. Do you marvel at the fact that, like, if you look at your contemporaries that you kind of came of age with, whether it's, you know, Tom Cruise or Johnny Depp, et cetera, they all kind of, they're clearly getting something out of the kind of things they're doing, doing Mission Impossibles and Pirates of the Caribbean or whatever. I don't know if it's reconciling things or if they, it seems like Tom Cruise actually really enjoys doing that stuff.

is it do you wonder sometimes like what are they what am i missing what are they getting out of these things that i just can't make the leap and just shut my brain off or turn a different part of my brain on well i don't think it's quite a question of brain on or off and nor is it a demonstration of some kind of comparative integrity i would not do nearly as well with you know Tom is so lit up in those films, and he's extraordinary in them. And that's a talent that, frankly, I don't have now, and I never had. And so it's not a question of would I have missed it. I would have said, I'm wrong for it.

You know, we only have, yes, it's for an actor to create character, but we're still, you know, limited to our own nature, and it's imagination, and, you know, where you have something. But, you know, you brought up an exam, of somebody who so clearly loves what he does. And there's no shame in that. And an audience's love to engage with that. And when I have loved what I've done,

audiences have turned out to be willing to be engaged with me on my own terms. I just don't love doing that anymore. If you believe the Internet, and Lord knows we probably shouldn't, some of those kinds of opportunities have come your way. I am sure you get all sorts of interesting offers. Is there any truth like Chris Nolan wanted you for the Joker? Did you guys talk about that at any point?

I don't recall that. Okay. If he did, he never told me himself. And, you know, and again, I'm just going to just thank God. I thought, you know, between the indelible one that Jack did and then when Heath Ledger came along and made it a new kind of rock and roll and, I mean, you know, extraordinary things. Listen, yes, over the years,

I've been offered a couple of things that became extremely successful genre pictures. In most cases, when I looked at them, I think with me in it, they would not have been extremely successful genre pictures. Do you take a certain irony in the fact that, again, looking back at some of your interviews the last 10, 15 years,

when Marlin passed, and you were very close with Marilyn Brando, there was a lot of talk of, like, you and others were trying to entice him to keep acting and give it another try. And here we are coming up on the full circle where I and many others are trying to entice you, Sean. Please consider, why are you denying us?

There's a bit of an irony there. Well, yeah, maybe there is. Again, it's hard for me to be in this, you know, I was in an interview earlier and somebody was asking about my family, all of whom were in something created, my younger brother, an actor, my older brother, a musician.

And, you know, was there ever any, consideration of anybody becoming an accountant. And it struck a chord because I remember specifically thinking to myself after seeing a last tango in Paris

that I should be an accountant. I can't even step to the play to... This is just too much. Were most of your conversations with Marlin about acting or just about... I mean, he was so wild. The gamut. The gamut. You know, it was

funny. I had done an interview, and someone asked, the interviewer asked me something about Marlon. He and I were seen somewhere or something. And I said something, you know, that I, you know, certainly it was full of affection and compliment only, just a brief thing about Marlon. I remember the next day I was on, after this piece came out, I was on a plane, and I landed in Aspen, Colorado, and I get into a hotel room, and no one knew I was there. And the phone in the rings somehow Marlett had tracked me down he said you know

how are you? I said well I'm good how did you even know I'm here do me a favor don't talk about me he had he had seen the article and I laughed I said okay got it

amazing I remember when I was working I was like at my first job at a school he would call like the general number at Charlie Rose just like the the number you could get off the street and you'd answer the phone and be like hey it's Marlon Brando what? What a great, great, great,

great, great actor. Amazing man. And man. Yes, exactly. Do you, is Jack Nicholson someone that's still in your life, someone that you still talk to? Very much. I mean, probably the principal angel on my shoulder in, you know, my career. Somebody who just believed at me from a very early age was always

encouraging. Great, you talk about loving collaborations. I, you know, that that's that's um lucky club stuff to have been able to work with him for the pledge you think of that particular collaboration that's a great pledge and the crossing guard both sure we were really yeah so such a he's got a joyce in mind and and often i would describe conversations with jack is you know you got to sometimes you got to go melody and you figure out the lyrics later because he he'll start right in the middle of a deep thought.

No, it's true. And I don't mean to compete on like name dropping. You've lived the life. I just kind of dip my toe in, but I've had the privilege of having to extended conversations with Jack. And I know he really hates doing interviews. And they were both, you know, supposed to be like 15 minutes on the phone. And they turned into like hour and a half just sort of rambling in the best possible way.

He's a, he's a brilliant wordsmith. Yeah. The guy eats books. I mean, I don't know how many novels a week, but it's numerous. Yeah. Do you, you know, you have, I don't know, maybe pessimistic is too strong a word, but like a feeling of the power of art and film today in terms of like its ability to affect change. Is it fair to say that you at this point don't, there's entertainment value certainly to films

and they can inspire to a degree, but there are limits and that it's just, it can, it can can't really affect actual change? Is that too far? I don't think we should depend on it to do that. Sure. For me, I don't know that I have the objectivity. Again, I am 57 years old, and all of the electronics are new to me, figuring out how to get on a channel

is something I don't know how to do unless I'm turning a dial. And there seems to be so much content. intent. And the most thoughtful of which tends to go to television, which is not, you know, the medium that I might be most excited about. And the theaters, principally are full of, you know, kind of, you know, circ de salate, you know, genre spectacles. It seems that, you know, much actors are seen more than ever. for that which will give them the highest profile and the valuation based on things that were not the things that I really value.

But then you get a surprise, and this is why I keep talking about a star is born with Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper. It's, I can't wait to see if I'm alone in this or not, you know, because this one might squeak through and be, and it still can happen. And if it can, then filmmakers who, thinking like I do, whatever, younger ones, will keep aspiring to do that, and that would be, for me, great, because I can't get through all the, there can be wonderful things happening, but they're not something that you're going to, you don't even know who else is paying attention to it. And I like to feel like I'm in that movie theater with people. I like to feel like that group that saw that event on that night

is going to remember that forever. And so for things to feel special is to feel that that voice can alter things. And I'm having a tough time, you know, seeing what's special because there's too much to see. Well, there's a crazy stat I think like next year there will be 500 TV series. Yeah. And many are great, but it's sheer numbers. I do this for a living and I see 20% of what I actually hear is amazing. And you're relying on people.

or giving people the opportunity to be the curator of their own viewings. Which, you know, that's great for Martin Scorsese. He's a trained curator. But for the average kid on the street coming up, you know, I think like anything else, it'd be helpful to offer great curation to that. And I like to see a design build itself somehow to allow for that. Did somebody help curate your interest as a kid, or did you fall into films that you fell in love with? Was it family? Was it an older friend? I mean, I feel like inevitably, you had an older brother,

and like my happiest kind of early experiences of falling in love with movies was going to the movies with him. How were you introduced to the art that inspired you? Well, I had a grandmother who, there was a lot of art in my house. My mother was endlessly creative, and my father certainly was invested in it. But I had a grandmother who would take me, you know, to see Bullet and Romeo and Juliet on a double bill. Downtown, L.A. or near where they lived, grandparents lived. And so on. There was that period, but also where I spent my adolescent years from age of nine, actually, till 17.

there was one movie theater within 25 miles and you know the movies that would play there would play just long enough until the next one came and in my memory each one were events that you never forgot you know I don't know one week it might be Lenny another week it might be coming home

right another week it might be with this one or that and you were seeing you know things that still today last as great works of art. And not only were the great works of art, the great works of art were also that which was most commercial and universal. Right. That's what's hard to come by. The taxi driver made money. Taxi driver was not a. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, part of it is just the luck of, I guess, the year, you know, the era. You see my walls. And yes, I have an affection for the 80s. I grew up in the 80s. And there was a lot of crap. There was also some good stuff. And the same could be

true. I mean, I guess you probably came of age. You were a teenager in the mid-70s, right? So I was from I was a teenager from from 73 on so you so you're talking about you know born in 1960 so the math is always easy So you're talking about what are Coppola and Casavetes and yes and and and then sure spielberg and it's malick yeah yeah with is malick malch you obviously collaborated with a couple times um was first of which was the red line which kind of brought him out of hibernation um what's I mean there's so much mystery about around him. He obviously hasn't talked to someone like me in 30 years. I don't know. It can be a peek into the mind of Terrence Malc or what it's like to collaborate with him. Well, you know, what, I don't want to speak for Terry on his feelings about, you know, talking about himself to journalists. That's its, that's its own thing. But he is, you know, he was a Rhodes Scholar. It was a journalist, has lived many lives before he started making

films and is, you know, endlessly fascinated with the natural world. You know, people can be in the middle of a take, and if he sees a red-bellied sucker-ucker, whatever bird, that camera is going to be guided up to that. He's going to forget he's got actors down there doing a scene. Over here, Terry, over here? Yeah, he's got his, he's a guy who is, you know, without a doubt, there lives in Terry Malick one of the great American poets visually and in words and he can drift and he's lovely

and he's tough and he's a lot of things but we've described all the greats we've talked about that's kind of like they all their eccentricities are their greatest assets as well and then you had people I knew Hal Ashby very well and he was a friend we talked about

working together almost did at one point And then we lost him. But this was a guy who, yes, he had a very complicated history, but as a, the general affability of him, he was the person I depended on in some of my, you know, hardest moments. It could be three o'clock in the morning, and he'd drive on up to the house. And the sadder tale I had to tell, the louder he laughed. He just, you know, he was always at 30,000 feet on that and just ready to tell you, you know, you think he got a problem. nothing nothing some perspective good to have once in a while um is there an actor or filmmaker today that if they called you up would it would be tough to say no to the prospect of collaborating

with them sight unseen even with the script and just say like this is worth exploring in a serious way i hope not because you don't want to be tempted even you don't yeah right now not not at this time you know right right now i'm very very much not You know, I've just finished a project with some wonderful people and with an actress I worked with on that, Natasha McElhoun, who's as great as any actress I've ever worked with. And that was in it, it was great. And I'm ready to spend some time writing. Is there, I was, as much as I was excited to see you today, I was also nervous about the smoking. And there's security is right next door to me.

And I was worried how it was going to go down. You haven't smoked at all. So that's a good thing. I've never smoked myself. Have I missed anything? Should I just have one cigarette before all is said and done, Sean? I have two questions. Are we not on an airplane right now?

Because I had convinced myself I was in a cross-continental commercial flight. You put myself in the head so it was not to smoke. And if we're not, let's go out on the taxiway and have a smoke. Look, if I'm going to have my first cigarette, it might be, might as well be with Sean Penn. Actually, you should not have your first cigarette. It's the worst effing thing anybody can do there. life don't do it any vices left besides cigarettes well cigarettes and self-loathing i knew i loved you for a reason um sean pen the book is bob honey who just do stuff we

didn't really talk about specifics of like the narrative and i don't know if that's you're okay with that or not i mean suffice to say it's um it's kind of a fever dream of a of a of a of a portrait of a guy who's septic tanks mallets ex-wives and nosy neighbors and nosy neighbors It's like a lot of buzzwords. And if that piques your interest and it peaks your interest to be inside the mind of Sean Penn, I think this is as close as we'll get to being inside your brain. I think that that's true.

Is that true? Okay. It's been honestly a distinct pleasure and an honor. I've always been such an admirer of your work. And don't be a stranger, whether it's for writing or acting. You're always welcome here, man. Thank you very much. Thanks so much. And so ends another edition of how.

Happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh. Goodbye, Summer Movies, Hello, Fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his Twitter.

When Brother James, we host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the ultimate movie podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lanthamos's Bougonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar in The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuis' return from retirement. There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about two. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2. And Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.