Happy Sad Confused - Shane Black

Episode Date: May 16, 2016

Filmmaker Shane Black joins Josh this week to talk about his latest film The Nice Guys with Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe, the importance of titling projects, how Kiss Kiss Bang Bang started out as a romantic comedy, The Longest Goodnight sequel that never happened, and much more. This episode is sponsored by www.replayseries.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute. This September, lease a 2026 X-E-90 plug-in hybrid from $599 bi-weekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event. Conditions apply, visit your local Volvo retailer

or go to explorevolvo.com. Ontario, the weight is over. The gold standard of online casinos has arrived. Golden Nugget Online Casino is live. Bringing Vegas-style excitement and a world-class gaming experience right to your fingertips. Whether you're a seasoned player or just starting. Signing up is fast and simple. And in just a few clicks, you can have access to our exclusive library of the best slots and top-tier table games.

Make the most of your downtime with unbeatable promotions and jackpots that can turn any mundane moment into a gold Opportunity at Golden Nugget Online Casino. Take a spin on the slots, challenge yourself at the tables, or join a live dealer game to feel the thrill of real-time action, all from the comfort of your own devices. Why settle for less when you can go for the gold at Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling problem call Connects Ontario 1866531-260. 19 and over. Physically present in Ontario.

Eligibility restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. Hey guys, and welcome to happy, sad, confused. I'm Josh Horowitz, and this is a podcast. Hopefully you've heard a podcast before, and I don't have to explain what a podcast is. Yes, you were saying, Sammy. I like when you say this is my podcast.

This is my podcast. I'm Josh. Nobody can take it. It's our podcast. No. It's like Bernie Sanders. It's like socialism. everybody's podcast.

Got it, got it, got it. No, this is my podcast. This is where I talk to super smart, interesting people. Thank you. And Sammy. This week's guest coming up in just a bit is a filmmaker, a writer, a director that I have great admiration for. I was really stoked to talk to Shane Black. Now, Shane Black, because Sammy, you're not necessarily...

Oh, teach me. Yeah, I know. You're not... Here's what I would say. You don't know Shane Black, but you do know Shane Black, because... I'm guessing you've seen lethal weapon. I have. Have you seen, well, I don't know if you've seen these films,

but let's mention them. Oh, let's try. Have you seen The Last Boy Scout? Oh, you need to see The Last Boy Scout. Last Boy Scout is a great movie. Bruce Willis, Damon Wayans, done. Directed by Tony Scott.

Great action. Amazing dialogue. Long Kiss Good Night. Yes. Great. Underrated. And Kiss Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. He directed that one.

Iron Man 3. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. You need to leave. I saw Iron Man 3. You saw all of it? Parts of it? No, I saw the whole thing. Iron Man's... What happens in Iron Man 3? Well, okay. Is Three the one with Guy Pearce? Yes, okay. Yes, I did. Oh, my God. And Ben Kingsley. Sir Ben Kingsley, to you. Yes. Of course I saw that one.

Shane Black, for context, back in the day, he was like the Wonderkind screenwriter. He set records with selling scripts for more money than anyone literally ever has in history. His first script at like 25 was lethal weapon, and then he went on to sell last Boy Scout for nearly $2 million, that set a record. Then he sold Longest Good Night for $4 million. That set a record. And then he kind of disappeared for a while. He had some troubles. He talks about a little bit in this interview. He drank too much. He partied too much. All that kind of stuff happened. And he came back around in recent years as a writer and director. And now he's has his third film. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang was the first. Iron Man 3, obviously did gangbusters.

And now this new film, which is excellent in it opens this Friday, is the nice guys with Russell Crowe and Ryan Gosling. I'm excited about this. You should be. This is a really good movie. I love the trailers. The trailers are great. The acting in this is great. I haven't seen both Ryan and Russell have roles as good as this in a while. And Matt Bowmer's in it. He plays a bad guy. A very bad guy. Which is so weird to me.

I feel like he's such a gentleman. He's a good actor. What can I say? I highly recommend this movie. It's super entertaining. And this conversation was great because Shane is, I don't know, he's one of those filmmakers. It reminded me of like that our conversation we had with Quentin Tarantino when he was in and that he is really a student of filmmaking and will say anything and everything on his mind.

He's super candid and had some really cool things to say about all aspects of the his career and the journey that he's been on from the get-go. So cool stuff in this interview, very excited about it. What else do we need to hit up, Sammy? You're watching Outlander again. Oh, my gosh. I started out. I got caught re-watching Outlander.

What were you doing while you were watching it? No, relax. What? I was just, it was, I went in, I had a friend over. Her name's Jenna. She's sitting in the corner of this office right now. She's the official mood setter for this intro. And she came over and I fired up my app.

TV because we were going to watch Kill Bill speaking of Tarantino and she happened to see that an episode from season one of Outlander was on sometimes you need to go back and just relive some moments it's a very intricate show there's a lot of things you miss no that's great I think I'm really excited for you I here's what I'm going to be watching next do you want to know you're going to be watching but I'm very excited I just got the screeners for the new OJ documentary have you heard about this no this apparently here's a scoop apparently this is going to be a thing everybody's talking about a couple weeks. It debuts on ESPN. I think it's like eight parts and everyone I've heard that

seen this thing says it is astounding and an amazing piece of filmmaking. So I'm going to, I'm planning on binging on that this weekend. I'd like if you could finish by Monday. Well, I also need to get through a night manager. I have a couple episodes. But I don't think they've all aired here in the States. No, they haven't. So on episode of three of that, enjoying that. I'm going to catch up on that. Then I'm moving into OJ. That's the plan. And then you can, it's just, the link i'll send you the link wait i can't say that out loud never come after me no i mean it's my link and i will never share it with anyone the link to your twitter feed no i will not do that um so that's what's what's my big plans big weekend you know what the sad thing is that is a big

weekend for me i'm very excited yeah could i order some chinese food maybe i mean watch the oj doc i think that sounds lovely i do too actually oh i am the weather here in new york might be nice but I like to just stay in my apartment and watch eight hours. It's almost like annoying when the weather is nice. Isn't it? Because it makes you feel like you have to go outside. I don't feel that way. Oh, yeah.

You're really odd guy, but most people would be like, oh, I should go outside. I'm not saddled with that kind of guilt. Do I have, going back to the OJ thing, why is it, I haven't really heard anything about it. I can't really speak to it yet. I honestly don't know. I've kind of avoided reading like, like, intricate analysis. I know New York Magazine did a piece on it. I read last week that.

went over the moon. And I noticed, personally, some people that have seen it that have raved about it to me. So I'll report back next week. How about that? That works for me. I just want to know if it's sports, really, if it's like more sports. I think it's about the trial. I think it's specifically about the trial. Oh, hell yes. Let's go. If the FX series wasn't enough for you. It wasn't. I think, I don't know. I think I'm going to get more into the documentary thing than, than the series was okay. Obviously. What? I'm not saying I'm better than you.

I'm so pretentious. I'm a little, a little better. A little better. it'll be like the documentary form of O.J. Simpson's stories. There's an exciting shoot coming up that we can't talk about. Oh, yeah, there is. We've got a couple ones. Actually, one that I don't know if I've, the other one that is confirmed, the other next after-hours shoot. Did I tell you about that one? No. I don't know. We'll talk about it later.

A couple cool after-hours coming up soon with big movie stars and big movies. That's all I can say at this time, guys. Stop staring at me like that. That's Sammy staring at me, not you guys. Okay. On with the show. Shane Black is the guest. The movie is the nice guys to go. Check it out this Friday. You won't be sorry.

Trust me. Enjoy. Yay. He had just eaten, by the way. He took a little break before the interview. I see his cup here. Yeah, that's his cup.

What was it coffee? I think it was coffee. Looks like a coffee or a Diet Coke. He had an E-Sig and coffee for... He did? He vaped in here. Yeah, for a little context. Did you hit any of his vape?

Sure. He, like, doesn't even know what that means. I don't know what that means. You can have it flavored? Yeah. I don't know. know. We lead a very

sheltered life. You don't worry about it? All right. Enjoy Shane Black and his vape. Shane Black and his vape. Is this the well-fed now, Shane? Yeah, it's kind of gassy. Yeah.

A little gasset. It's always good for a podcast, I find. Oh, yeah. As long as the mic stays here, yeah. There you go. There you go. Well, there's no formal introductions, sir. Is that okay? Do you need a formal introduction?

No, I do not. Just tell me when we're going. We're going. It's happening. Do you feel the magic? Yeah, it's sort of like Clintineasua, the way he directs. Instead of saying, action, he says, okay, go ahead. People just start, you know, because... Are you a quintess to a two or three take kind of guy? You know, funnily enough, as I say in London,

I just, I think if you get the greatest actors in the world, then if they haven't got it, by the take four, there's something wrong with what I'm doing, you know. The trick is that what, and a lesson I learned is, if you really want to play that way, you've got to figure out which actor heats up quickest, because what will happen is, you know, if you're shooting over the shoulder of an actor who burns himself out in three takes, onto an actor who only gets warmed up after three takes, you're doing it backwards, yeah. So are Ryan and Russell kind of similar burning flames, are they kind of at the same speed?

Well, Robert Benton tells a story about Merrill Streep that the whole thing on the, witness stand where she breaks down on Kramer versus Kramer. She broke down in tears thrashing and just weeping and just exhausted herself. And he said, honey, after the take, he says, look, we're still, this is the master. We still have three more sizes to go as we come in on you. And she looked at them and said, I know. And she hid it every time. Amazing.

Yeah. She just loves doing that. She doesn't need to loaf. Similarly, these guys, it's always, you know, I think they would relish every chance to do it again. I think that another take for them, Ben Kingley said something wonderful to me on Iron Man, which is we're doing a shot and that we had a camera bump. You know, he hit a bump and it shook the camera. And I said, Sir Ben, we really want this clean sort of smooth move here. And I apologize because I know you've done this to death here.

But if you could just find it, if it's okay to do one more, you know, I would just, I apologize. But could you give us one more take? And he goes, no, no, no, you'd not understand. this is not another take another chance another opportunity at greatness yeah to him there's no this thing

it's another take it's another chance why wouldn't an actor won another take fair enough yeah they spend most of their time sitting waiting for the call to actually work you get all the cameras up there

let's do the thing that I've trained to do oh that said you'd be surprised I've been on movies with guys they lobby they audition for the part they want it they come back for seven callbacks

they're like just anything I need this part I want this part I'll do anything for this part and then like you start filming and one weekend they go you're saying I can't fly back to New Hampshire for the weekend

what's wrong with you and it's like it's like dude I thought you wanted this yeah what happened to the guy I hired that was so excited yeah I'm a huge fan of yours and I'm a huge fan of this film

I don't know what level of gushing you need but I'll give you like a six it's getting a little cloying I can when my shoes are wet then it's the gushing okay so I'll stop but just so you know I come at this conversation

with a great appreciation of your work including this one You're, as we sit here today, you're hours from going to Cannes. You're off to the crazy Cannes Film Festival. I'm off to the nutty farm. You went there at least once before, right, for kiss-kiss, bang, bang, you were there. That's right, that's right. And that was a fun experience, because even standing cheek by jaw with those kinds of films and filmmakers, you know, we're not in competition,

but just to have a chance to be appreciated at that level speaks beyond my wildest dreams, you know. And I get to try out the, you know, a little bit of French. I'm trying to write a little speech If there's an intro Then it's memorize it in French You know, so I can speak Where were you at In your life

I mean it was obviously Kiss Bang Bang was a big one And that it was your first directing Directing effort What are your memories of Cannes the first time around? Well the first time around Cam was great They were really nice to us

You know I had I had fun I closeted myself in the room For a lot of the time I didn't really didn't really do the whole experience. It's different when you're a writer or director, especially

the first time. No one knows who you are. And you're sort of embarrassed by the attention. I always have been. And also, I'm still learning, so I don't want to presume to know so much or to feel like I'm special. I'd rather leave that to the actors. So for me,

it was more a case of just trying to overcome that fraudulence, that puts me at a table or a panel with someone who I look at and recognize as a filmmaker's one of my idols or influences, you know? Right. I'm still not comfortable with that notion. So you still feel a long way to go in terms of just honing the directing craft. Obviously, I mean, I would think from the writing perspective, you feel a little bit more at ease with your place in the universe, yes?

Yeah. Directing, I guess, three films in, what do you see much room to still improve? What are you looking at that you're critical of? It's just different every time and adjusting and being able to think on my feet. That's the thing. To be able to think on my feet because preparation is essential. I need that in order to feel competent. Just going in.

And, you know, everyone thinks directing is shot making. It's like, you know, storyboarding. And it is to some extent. But, you know, you're always going to have help with that. You're always going to have a guy who will say, you know, I know you wanted to push to the left. but maybe we could push to the right. And that storyboard is not sacrosanct. It's not set in stone.

But what is important is that the day you're set to film a scene, you get the scene in its perfect, maximized form in that day. So you have to not just worry about the individual predetermined templates of shot making and really think about the entire experience of that day and how to make it happen so that by the end of it, everything that needs to be in the can is in the can. and that's that's it just it's about efficiency and and and just knowing also how to breathe and not panic god it's so easy to get caught up because their directing is about a series of questions that are asked you

it's about a hundred things in a hundred different ways flying at you in the space of 10 minutes and you know what color should this be where does he stand what does he say why did he say that Why does my character do this? Where is this? Are we up and down? Is it a day or night? And you don't want to just toss out answers. You want to think about it.

But at the same time, you want to do the preparation so that you can toss out answers. Right. You know, I want to say left, right, up, down because you're an asshole. And, you know, boom. I want to talk to you a little bit about titles, first of all. The film is called The Nice Guys. You've always had a real way with titles, I feel like. Your films are very evocative.

They're, I don't know, just from lethal weapon, Longkus, Good Night. the last Boy Scout, all of them. I love them all. Do you take a certain pride? Is there a method to the madness of titling your projects? I think titles are always important. It would be the same if I were writing books. It's, it's easy to get lost in the miasma. You know, when I read the trades on the rare occasions that I do, and I see the title of a film, it should stick with me. Yeah. The nice guy is actually, by the way, probably one of the more generic titles that we've come up with. You know, it's funny, I'd go back to the day with Warner Brothers when we were doing

Lethal Weapon, and there was some studio anxiety about Lethal Weapon, especially the title. They said, you know, this isn't testing with women. So we don't really want to call it Lethal Weapon. We're going to look at all these other titles. And the one that they picked that they thought was the most powerfully market savvy title was Hot Shots! Eventually became a wonderful film In its own right

But Hot Shots starring Mel Gibson and Danny Glover A different kind of movie Yeah and you know what By Lethal Weapon 4 Maybe it should have been called Hot Shots It's true, it kind of morphed that way Well I mean jumping around since you bring it up Are you able to look at those last couple lethal weapon movies

With any kind of ownership or does it feel like No not at all but they're good You know Donner is good at what he does I just, and I've learned lessons, you know, the idea of taking something, a harsh cop story and sort of humanizing and bringing it to a level, and the sort of heartfelt, very profound friendships that are formed in these movies that feel organic. But, you know, it just gets so cloy, like when they're all out fishing together to me, that just seems like, then it's just, then it's just, and now welcome back to a lethal weapon,

and here's your beloved characters, you know, it becomes more. But what he did with those first couple, more so the first one, I mean, was terrific. I think the whole franchise sort of went to a place where everyone wanted it for quadrant. They wanted to satisfy a lot of people. And the last one, everyone's having babies for crying out loud. Right. Well, it did feel even cluing or market-driven, even in the way by the end it was bringing in what, like, Jet Lee was brought in. And it felt like naked ambition for, like, bringing in new markets and,

Renee, and it just felt a little less organic. Well, you know what it felt like is TV, because that's what TV is now. It's a guy in the front of the poster with his arms crossed, and behind him, there's this V of people that stretches out behind him. It's the rainbow that appeals to everyone. Yeah, the ensemble 10-episode or 23-episode arc cast. And if you look at those TV posters, they're actually very similar to the poster for Lethal Weapon 4. So they were already sort of leaning into more of a televised idea.

And by the way, look what's on TV next fall. Lethal weapon. Lethal weapon, yes. Does anything ever match the satisfaction or the excitement of that first film being produced? I mean, what do you remember of that? Another admirer we're calling you. No. Oh, this guy.

I don't know who it is. But I mean, I would think about that first production, you're, what, 24, 25 or something, when lethal weapon is produced. As great as the successes that have come in the ensuing years, does anything match the first rush of success? You know what's funny? Yeah, kiss kiss bang, bang, because it's seeing it and having been a part of every aspect of it

in the editing room and all through, to recognizing it so intimately that I can tell you not only every shot, but pretty much every line of dialogue and pretty much where even the number of frames, in some cases before a cut. So once you've got that level of familiarity with something and it's also being played to an audience, that's a tremendous satisfaction.

And also the people that liked it were more impressive to me. Like Jim Brooks telling me we did a good job or I did a good job on it was more satisfying than just reading in the box office that Lethal Weapon made this much money, for instance. So I was actually happier to hear from Jim that the film worked than to hear that Lethal Weapon had made some money. Right. And satisfaction going into the release of this film.

You know, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, for instance, did not, like, set the world on fire in terms of box office. But its admirers are legion. Well, this one's different. If this one doesn't make money, I'm going to blow my fucking hand off. No, don't see it. No. But what is the word on, like, the F bombs and stuff for this? Oh, please, good.

Let loose. Well, I mean, so what's your degree of success? Like, what are you looking for? You just got a phone call from a great filmmaker moments ago that was complimenting you? that must feel great. Yeah, no, it feels fantastic. So I think what we just need to do, and it doesn't have to be huge,

it just has to generate, based on our budget, a commensurate amount of money that we pay back the budget and have a tidy profit that enables a sequel. I think that would be great, because in these types of films especially, you can have them investigate another case. This was sort of a tasting menu, this film, of the various kinds of situations and these type of characters.

Now the tone's established. We know the kinds of things they do. Another case is not out of the question. Right. It does feel like kind of an origin story by the end. And I heard you talking about an interesting way about like superhero movies and the challenge of them. And, you know, a challenge for any film is like it's the most interesting day of your life, right? And by the nature of detective stories, it works because there's always that next case.

And that can work for these guys. And even if it's not the most interesting moment of their lives, the case could be the most interesting moment of someone else's life. Right. So you get the, and that was a big shift, I think. I was talking to a famous mystery writer not too long ago. Actually, it was long ago. And he was bemoaning with me the fact that it used to be that the cases were so much more

interesting than the detective themselves. The detective was cool and he had snappy patter. But it was about this intricate web that painted a tapestry of that type of entertainment, this brand of detecting. protecting like half cowboy, half, you know, frontier justice, and then mean streets, kind of urban noir. Right. But then they said, well, what if the detective had a parrot that was named cat, and what if he drove this kind of weird car? And he only, you know, he had this thing of walking to the left all the time.

And he wears a funny hat, and his girlfriend is... Quarks and daddy his shoes and all sorts of fun stuff. And all of a sudden, it becomes about the personal life of the detective and not the case. Right. And now, that may be contradictory because obviously in these movies, you do want to deal with a personal life of the detective, but the mystery has to be fun and thrilling, and there has to be one, because we're carrying a torch here, essentially. This is a legacy of private eye and noir movies to which I'm beholden. I can't just release a stupid comedy and pull to SNL alumni and stick them in and say, come on, guys, improv it up, be funny. you know, that this is something that isn't born to me, that I carry the tradition.

Yeah. Well, what's the, what's the hardest part of something like this? I mean, it seems to me like you have a gift, a real panache for dialogue, obviously, and interplay. But when you talk about mystery, I mean, that's a construction that, as you say, not many people even bothered to succeed at. Is that the harder part to kind of make a mystery that gels and feels satisfying? I think so. And most people won't remember it, by the way, but they would remember its absence.

Right. They won't know it's there, but you still need it. And I've found this remarkable source for this, and Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. There was a book by an old pulp writer named Brett Halliday. It was actually the name was Davis Dresser. And there was a clue in it I liked. So I thought, you know, that kind of frees me up. That gives me a little bit of, I know where the story would go if that were kind of the solution or the key that snapped it for them.

I called up the granddaughter. I said, can I option the book? I just want to pull a piece out of it. And I used the clue, and we gave him credit. I did a similar thing with the same author in The Nice Guys. There's a clue in there that's taken, you know, I called up granddaughter again and said, hey, it's me, I'm back to pick a clue out of one of your granddaddy's books. Or maybe his father.

No, I had to be grandfather. The point being, there's an infinite stew out there of people who are unsung, sort of largely unremembered authors that I read voraciously. and you can always find inspiration, if not in this case, something that you can actually use. Yeah. Is there, I mean, having worked with two guys that you haven't worked with before, Ryan and Russell,

and I would argue that they're exploiting them in ways that other people haven't and to see, Russell especially, I feel like in recent years, no one's known what to do with him in a way and to see that the comic timing he has is, and obviously the presence that he brings. Is there a special satisfaction in kind of like finding that secret sauce of like a of a pairing that no one's ever seen or even imagined? I think it has to feel right. I don't think there's any alchemy.

I'd rather let me rephrase that. I think it is alchemy. I don't think there's any template or blueprint that you can use practically to say these two equal a formula that, you know, equates to chemistry. I mean, even Ryan Gosling was making a joke about it on TV. They said, well, how do you get that chemistry? He goes, oh, there's an app. We just do it. And then you run it through this filter, you know, and it just adds the chemistry to it.

But the truth is you don't know that's going to happen. You just have a hunch. Yeah. You feel it. I think the trick is that this was a thriller as well as a comedy. And so you didn't want to just pluck, like I said, two comedians. Right. You've got to find guys with chops who can bring about that heartfelt sort of genuine feel in the friendship that evolves or the relationship.

And then they're also funny. Yeah. And that's what makes it worry. It would never occur to me. Because the dirty little secret I have is that if you bring me a thriller movie and say, put some jokes in it, I'll say, great, I can do that. But if you bring me a blank page, say, write a comedy, I'm frozen. I have no idea how to just be funny, how to write a comedy. Like, you know, Damon Wayans and Damon Wayans in.

You know, I can't do that. If you'll indulge me going back, I know we talked a little bit about lethal weapon, but I'm just curious, like on the page on that first or whatever draft it was that you sold of that. one, was someone like Mel, someone you had in mind for Riggs? Never, never, never. You know, you may have noticed this. I know you probably write as well.

I know you probably do. That doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? It's the glasses. They give it away. But I have the capacity. Yeah, here's the deal. When you read a novel, when you read the latest, you know, Robert Ludlum, I don't think you're picturing

actors when you read it. You get this amalgam that your head sort of provides you based on, you know, people you've known or people you've even seen pictures of. You sort of form these sort of templates of people in your head. Then, when you're doing a sequel, now they've been replaced with the actors who played it in the first movie. But the first lethal weapon, you know, who knew? I at the time was a huge fan of this guy, William Hurt, who was fairly young then. And I was just desperate for William Hurt.

And then when Mel Gibson was cast, my initial. reaction was well I guess he's Australian you know and you can still hear it sometimes but no one cares because do you really want to jump aye aye you want to jump

but no one cares because mostly he's just brilliant you know have you I mean obviously he's had troubles going back years now but I mean he's directing again which is great have you have you ridden for him have you tried to get him in anything I tried back in 2008

I believe. We're going to do something called the Cold Warrior. Unfortunately, that was sort of the crux of the industry's rejection of him and the subsequent sort of blackballing. And I think it's in essence,

whether it's justified in your mind or not, it was blackballing. The industry said, go away. Personally, I just feel like first off, I will go on record saying, I don't think anyone should ever, ever be held accountable at an industry level

for something they say while they are drunk. If they're sober and they get out of hand, that's one thing. But, you know, if I'm drunk, I'm going to be deliberately bligerent. I'm going to try to make you mad. I'm going to say something crazy just to get a reaction, you know. So the idea that a drunk person is then held accountable for a rant when they were completely, they don't even remember saying it. You know, I don't believe in Vino Veritas.

I don't think that who you are when you're drunk is, that's the real you. I don't believe that. I've seen people who are great people and they just go off when they're drunk. Did you yourself feel blackballed at a certain point? Obviously, you had your years away from the industry. Did you feel like? Well, I made a lot of money and perhaps too much.

I didn't want to give it back. I mean, I don't think anyone would. Right. But there was a period I talk about sometimes where after I'd sold one script for like almost $2 million, another for $4 million. And I had done at that point the Monster Squad, Lethal Weapon 1, Lethal Weapon 2, Last Action Hero, Long Kiss, Good Night, Last Boy Scout.

And my friend Dale Lawner called me, is a good writer, great writer, and said, hey, the Academy Motion Pictures is kind of a fun thing. You get to vote for the Oscars. Let me sponsor you, and we'll get you in Academy. I said, great, that sounds like fun, Dale. Letter comes back a couple weeks later. Mr. Black, you know, we've reviewed your application and find that at this time you're not of sufficient caliber for a membership in the Academy, but you're free to apply to later date.

when you have more credits. And I thought, wow, wow. So it wasn't just me. It wasn't an imagination. There was this snub. And I thought, well, why would they do that? Is it just action movies? No, it's a combination.

I'm a kid, and I got paid way too much to write movies that they think are hacky movies. Right. And my only mistake under those circumstances was to actually let my feelings get hurt, to be sensitive about it. Obviously, I could have just laughed and shrugged it off, and I did publicly. I said, ha, ha, ha, ha, I'm not, I'm a far cry from heartbroken. The academy can, you know, ho, ho. Right.

But then I went home, and I'm like, you don't like me, you know. And I'm a people pleaser at heart. I don't want people to, you know, to react negatively. And now the good news is it actually pushed me in an unhealthy way to perhaps try too hard to then demonstrate that I was worthy of the attention that they were snubbing me. You know, I said, I'm going to write something real. Right. Chasing him. Some respectability.

Yeah. So Jim Brooks, who was a friend of mine, who'd done in terms of a Deerment broadcast news, you know, as good as it gets. I said to him, Jim, I want to write something. And when you look at the pages, he said, sure. So I think, here we go. I'm going to be Jim Brooks. And that's, I'll show those guys that I can write. And I started writing this romantic comedy.

He was trying to make it poignant. And he liked it at first. And then around to page 80, he said, dude, you know, like, it started out great, but I don't know where the hell you're going with it. It's just kind of, oh, look, you're flailing here, you know. So imagine that kind of night where I sat there by Idol, Jim Brooks, my role model, has said, you know, this attempt on your part to sort of demonstrate

that you're going to write something outside the genre and really it's failing. Yeah. You're failing. But I have a survival mechanism, so I didn't panic. I said, all right, well, look, look, 40 pages are good. 80 may, you know, it's all over, but I'll bet I could scrape together 40 good pages out of there. And I remember distinctly the moment when I said, fuck it, I got to put a murder in it.

And then I can finish it. And sure enough, I put in the gay detective that Val Kilmer would then play. And I put a murder mystery plot in with the plot piece I hauled out of Brett Halliday. And now that's why Kiss Kiss, Kiss, Bang, feels such like a hybrid because it's half romantic comedy I set out to write. Right. And half-murder mystery, ultimately it was for the best. But, yeah, I was just, I was feeling snubbed. I let my feelings get hurt.

Did, I mean, in those years where there were no credits, were you writing regularly? Or was it sort of like, I need a break and I'm going to enjoy my life? Well, it wasn't, I was in fear. I always felt in between projects that I was a fraud. And I would be caught out that the fraudulence of my inabilities to write would be. on display and very soon because every time I'd sell a script even for a lot of money

especially for a lot of money I would say geez I've just now I don't I forgot how do I write I can't remember what how do I even do that I'm bad at this only recently have I come to feel more good about that so I took too much time off

I drove around with my friends and we would go to parties in the hills and just hang out like the guys in swingers but even still it was still working. I was just fighting back. There was a period in the post millennium where I got kind of down and started to drink too much. And then I had to stop. Then I had to really face that and by the way, I'll say this to the writers out there, if your career is having trouble and you feel kind of blue and you drink a lot of alcohol or maybe even do some drugs, you might stop

to consider that maybe there's a correlation between those two things. I just to just, you know, I know it's a crazy idea, but there might be a connection. Jumping around again, but going back, because I just watched it yesterday, because it was a good excuse to watch it, was Last Boy Scout, which I love. I have a great affection for. Was Tony a good match for that material? There are all these stories that like Tony and Joel didn't get along, that Damon and Bruce didn't get along. Were you on set? What was your experience? really on set for that one. I heard some horrendous stories. I can't verify

them. It's senseless to repeat them. But what I did hear was from Tony himself was that he thought the movie didn't come out quite as well as it might have. And he thought the original script was actually, had a lot of promise that by the end it sort of felt more

pedestrian. I personally think the first half of the movie works extraordinarily well and I'm just sort of baffled and not too happy with the action portion in essence, the last part. Right. And that was the first record payday, I think, at the time, right? And then that was followed relatively soon after by Long Kiss Goodnight. Do I have that right?

Right, that's correct. Which, again, I mean, there's legions that love that film. And I've talked to, every time I see Sam Jackson over the years, I've talked to him about that, and I know he loves that film, and he's talked about how he wants to play that character again. Yeah. Have you ever considered actually writing another story? I have, and I even talked to Sam, and we went in and pitched it, and the studio said no. This upsets me to know what was the term of the idea.

Could you hint a little bit? No, the idea was just that, you know, we focus on Sam years later, coping with Gina Davis's daughter as she goes into college. And the past comes back to haunt them in a way. And, you know, we hadn't really worked it out entirely. But we felt that there was something there because Sam is such a, he's the best actor of ever. work with, by the way. I don't mean to take away from anybody, but, you know, I've never seen

anyone love acting that much. I'll give you an example. There's a scene at the end of Longkiscuit night where he's in a car dying, talking to Gina Davis in tears, and he says, you know, you got your mother's eyes. Don't let anyone tell you different. So we were done, except we needed a shot across the street. We actually saved the master for last of the actual car sitting in the snow 50 yards away. We said, okay, Sam, don't get out of the car yet. You're still miced. Can you go through the scene? We just need the silhouettes in the window doing the scene, so it'll match action. We're listening on the head. He does the whole scene with tears again. And it's silhouettes in a car 50 yards away. He just loves, he won't compromise. It's that Merrill Street

story all over again. It's the Merrill Street thing. Some people just actually get off on it and enjoyed, and that's what they're on this planet to do. working with actors, you were an actor yourself, you acted way back when. Was that an aspiration as equal to writing and directing early on? Perhaps. I mean, I wasn't a very good actor. I mean, I've done some, I did some things recently. I just, everyone saw someone call me up.

There's a little movie called Swing State with Billy Zane and Ted Levine. I did a part in that, you know. But I would go into an audition at the age of 22, you know, and I'd be sitting there waiting to go in the office. and some guys would be sitting with me, right? And here comes a guy through the door, and I recognize him from TV. I'm like, oh, God, shit, I know him. He'd be great for this.

You can't have that mindset. You have to think like you're the guy that's going to sort of exclusively bring something to the dance that no one else really is bringing. And I felt that I had a germ of that with the writing game. And to some extent now, I think, once I have the ability to control the tone of a piece, that directing-wise,

there might be something I bring that other people wouldn't get. But as an actor, I don't think I'm in the same boat with these people. Maybe your most notable credit on the IMDB as an actor as a predator. Sure. Going back. Were you also doing rewrites on that? Was that also part of the gig, or was it simply an acting gig? Well, they wanted me to do rewrites, and that's why they hired me as an actor.

They said, come down, and behind closed doors, I'm sure, they were saying, yeah, man, we have trouble. We've got barking here right there. So, of course, they came to me, and they said, Would you do this for us, please? And I said, I'm just an actor. And I wouldn't do it. And part of it is because I didn't think the thing needed that much help. Of course, I wrote jokes for myself.

Nobody else. You're hopefully endeavoring on that as your next directing gig, right? Yeah, that's the next thing up. So what's your affection for that franchise? Can you sum up sort of why you love it so and why you felt it? I think one of the things I love about is it's infinitely variable because it has a close encounters aspect to it, of an incursion into Earth airspace

by something mysterious that we don't know that calls back all those 50s horror films. It's got the monster movie element that Alien has. It's got the heroic military stuff that you can subvert or cling to as much as you want. You can go with Arnold or you can go with the opposite of Arnold. Right. And ultimately, it's just creepy.

It has the potential to be really creepy and be the thing around the corner or under the bed that just that doesn't make sense in the middle of the the landscape of every day you know

I just you know why I'll tell you why exactly it just occurred to me talk to you I like it because it's Johnny Quest I don't know if you remember Johnny Quest yeah of course I do

yeah yeah it's that kind of adventure the combination of science fiction espionage and military right but and all you have to do is throw in a kid and you would have Johnny Quest

so are you throwing a kid into this one we'll see kids often end up in the mix in your films I mean can you say anything without revealing too much in terms of like will it be a familiar kind of context

of familiar milieu or are you trying to find something a lot different than we've seen in the other predator films I think that ideally we're just endeavoring to get back to what Joel and John Davis

managed to pull off with John McTiernan in the first film now that said I don't want to make it huge I don't want to you know it's not about 50 Predators, you know, trumbling over the mountains, you know. But short of the Armada scenes that I don't think help the film, I think that having a sense

of eventizing it, making it feel fresh like that first movie is going to be helpful. There was a period where Fox was sort of churning them out a certain $40, $50 million budget, whatever, a guaranteed return. And you'd see a week out that, oh, look, there's a Predator movie opening. another one? Yeah, I guess so, you know. And maybe you saw it, maybe you didn't. But there was never the sense of being a month out and ordering tickets early

to make sure that this was one you didn't have to line up for. You could just walk in. I'm not going to predict success for the movie, but I'd love to give it the opportunity to be that ambitious, that it aspires ultimately to be the kind of serious summer movie that Alien was back in the day. Well, I was going to say, I know Prometheus has its detractors, but at least Ridley kind of did reclaim that franchise from a similar pile, you know, that heap of sort of like, it's an event again.

It's ambitious. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that it's huge. There's huge stuff in Prometheus, but ultimately it's still a small cast in an isolated location. And by the way, you're right, it does have its detractors. And there's some silly moments like the geneticist or biologist who deals with. with, he goes, oh, come here,

sweetheart. The guy that loves rocks and yeah, exactly. I like for me, does I like a lot about it? I like the film a lot. Yeah.

And the reason I know that is because when it's on, I'll just start watching it. Exactly. It goes for something. It has ambition, as you said. When I spoke to you for a second

at CinemaCon, I think you hadn't yet talked to Arnold. How important is it to get him in the mix potentially or is it not integral to the start to get Schroitz and Higgar back? You know,

I think that there's one of two ways we can go. either we use Schwarzenegger or we don't, and there's advantages to using him, and there's a story to be told if we don't, and I just, I'm not going to tell you which one we chose. Okay, so the choice has been made. We made a choice that I think is cool, and we'll see what happens. On a separate note, not necessarily related to the Predator films, but it saddens me that no one's

figured out what to do with Arnold Post, his... government career that he's he's he's an untapped resource as a as a screen presence that I feel someone needs to take him back the truth is look we you know I think he's he's fantastic and Terminator Genesis ended up making a great deal of money overseas it's just part of it too is that you know these are action heroes you're dealing with and people do get older yeah there's gonna come a time where even Tom Cruise is gonna be you know six years old. And, you know, I'm old. We're all getting old. So adapt and survive in some way.

Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, it's also curious, speaking about adapting and kind of like, look, second acts and third acts. I mean, what, what you did with Downey and kiss, kiss, bang, was immediately followed by Iron Man and you can't help but think there's a correlation there. I'm sure Favreau and the team saw what he was doing in kiss, kiss, bang, and that helped him get there. And, of course, you came back around on Iron Man. I mean, that experience, again, one of the things I love about Iron Man 3, as much as I love, I don't know if you've seen the new Civil War film in its story. I have. I loved it. I thought it was great.

But it's great for what it is, scope and an ensemble, et cetera. And your film was smaller in a way. I mean, the stakes were big and personal stakes were huge, but it felt like a smaller story. And I think there's not enough of that in superhero films now. I think that the scale can be your enemy after all. How many apocalypses can we live through? I don't mean to apply that directly to X-Men Apocalypse, which is coming. I mean, literally, how many apocalyptic scenarios one after another every summer can one sustain.

But that said, Captain America, I love that film. And I'll tell you why, is because Marvel remembers to do something right. Kevin Feige, in particular, having worked with him, he'll have his superhero come striding in slow motion out of the mist lit from below, photographed from down under and chiseled jaw and all this stuff it's a myth and then he stubs his toe and that's what they remember to do

there's a series Sebastian Stan the Winter Soldier in this movie there's a scene where he's brutalized and tortured but then there's a moment where he's nudging his pal because cap's kissing a girl and they remember to do that too to bring it down to that level where it just takes you

by surprise it shocks you and then you go no no no that's perfect and it's I think because they're comic book guys they know how to play this game and wield these cards like a magician knowing when to change up the tone and too many people think that you have to stay true to one specific tone solely throughout the whole piece

and that's the ones that change tone are the ones I like what do you think of what they've done with I mean Tony's been put through the ringer particularly in this last one since Iron Man 3 are you happy or as someone that had you know that had control of that character for a brief time what they've been doing with them and do you see a future for that character?

I think it's spot on. And I think there's an infinite variety of things that Tony Stark can do. As long as you don't ever really let him conquer the demons. I mean, in this one, he's got new demons. But at some point, you know, being a superhero involves these superheroic responsibilities that leave you open to being really shattered emotionally. And in this latest Captain American movie, you know, almost loses his best friend, he's tormented by guilt, you know, he re-evaluates

his entire worldview, you can do that with Tony Stark for 10 more movies. We like to seem tortured, yeah. They haven't even gotten until the alcohol wasn't my God. I don't think they're ever going to go there. Did you try an Iron Man 3 to bring that into the fold, or was this? When I came into the first meeting, I mentioned it, and there was just a big look around the room, and then, no. Well, you fuck with Mandarin, but not with alcoholism.

And it might change now, because of the first meeting. truth is back then they were driven by toy sales right and now they're not so back then it's like and new drinking iron man you know add yeah add all the different types of jack you know was that the one thing that you couldn't quite get in there obviously the mandarin choice was huge and then i yeah i loved it but i know there were there were there were detractors it's sad because the idea of a i am which is a think tank you know cobbling together a boogeyman based on It's research into our fears as a world of what triggers, you know, the response that leads to people being sheep-like. And then using the Internet to broadcast, it seemed like, wow, that's really textured and modern.

That feels cool. And the fans just wanted the magic rings. They wanted lasers coming out of rings. And I wish they had seen it with as much fun as Drew and I and even Marvel at that time did. But because we just thought to ourselves, look, you know, Whiplash, And Iron Man 2 doesn't look like Whiplash in the comics. You want to trade it up a little. We traded it up too far for a lot of the fans.

I think they're just more vocal. I think most people really enjoyed what you did with Mandarin. I think just the, as we know, on the interweb, the vocal minority. Well, Marvel made an entire movie to apologize for it. They made this thing called Hail to the King where they say, oh, sorry, sorry, it's not really him. It's not really him. I swear, there is a real Mandarin.

Oh, my God. They went into, like, retrieval mode. You're disavowing the short film? I'm not disavowing it it's fine I'm just saying that I don't think it would exist if there hadn't been a fan blowback

I mean obviously you're busy with and busy with some kind of potential franchise things I know Doc Savage is another one that's out there have you taught is Marvel or even DC

something you would ever consider doing another you know I don't know I may be too outspoken just in talking candidly or maybe the fans at Marvel

of Marvel movies and their Mandarin And I just saw a meme the other day. I told someone of, it's a picture of my face on a body being ass-raped by the Mandarin and it says, prepare your anus is the actual word balloon. And I think that's... That's not too extreme. No, that's a justifiable response.

I really... Actually, you get stuff like that on your feed, you know, or in your inbox, and you think, well, I guess they really didn't like it. So you're saying you're anxious to do an Avengers movie and welcome that. back into your life. So, I, no, it's not even that. I would very much be open to the possibilities of Marvel, because I'm such a huge fan of what Joss Whedon originally told me when I was on Iron Man. I was, all the moving parts were so huge.

And he said, look, trust the machine. You don't have to control every moving part. Feige is very smart. Broussard, Victoria Alonzo, Lou Disposito. These are smart people that are there for you. And I did. I learned from that time that the way I could screw up was to close my ears and start black And the way I could succeed was to just, you know, take the cork, put it in my mouth,

and take the cotton out of the ears and actually learn. So I'm such a fan of what Marvel gave me in terms of that education that I'd be happy to go back under certain circumstances, you know, maybe they would actually pay this time. I'm kidding, of course, they paid me, but... Before I let you go, I'm just curious, I mean also in terms of... We talked a little bit about working with Ryan and Russell, but we didn't really get into Downey, And specifically, I mean, I'm the biggest Val Kilmer fan on the planet. And I'm so happy that you gave him.

Again, he hasn't been given enough great roles in recent years. I don't know what that's about exactly. Well, he's sort of cheapen his brand. He did a lot of movies that just go straight to Red Box. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I had him in here for like one of those, like, 50-cent movies that just sort of came and went. And it was like...

Yeah. And, you know, I guess that's what you do if you can. Yeah. But the consequence is that when someone tenders your name, as I have many times, at a big studio meeting they say uh yeah he's really good but right and it's because he's just done so many little movies that didn't make a blip it's weird and then i think of someone like i mean i mean bruce willis and travolta do those kinds of things and yet they they somehow they they emerge a little bit unscathed or maybe not totally unscathed but i don't think that the

studio has the same opinion of travolta that he used to even yeah um you know he used to be the kind of $20 million star. I mean, I don't know. I think John Chavold is wonderful. You know, I don't even think it's that. I think that it's ageism, frankly. These guys, if they want to play action heroes, there's a point where they all just get a little old. Right. Where you start to think, you know, I get it, but, you know, why aren't they using, you know, I don't know, Matt Damon. Right. This guy looks like he's 60 years old. Yeah. Lastly, do you have a favorite line you've ever written in a film, one that's made it to the screen intact? I do, and it's strange. It's not even a, it's not the funniest joke in the world,

but my favorite line that ever wrote was when Brian Cox and Long Kiss Good Night catches up to Sam Jackson and he says, basically, how'd you find me? And he says, there may be any reasons to kill you, but among them is not that you'll be missed by NASA. I always liked that one. That's a good one. And delivered by the, the, likes of Brian Cox. I mean, you can do a lot worse. Thank you so much for coming in today. I'm a huge fan, as I said, of the nice guys. I hope it does phenomenally well for you, and I hope we get to see Ryan Russell and you collaborate on more of these adventures in the future. I would love that, yeah. Hey, by the way, if you're saying that on the air, don't be

afraid to tweet it out either. Well, I'll be there on social media for you, man. All right. I appreciate that. Thanks for stopping by. Thank you, but. Appreciate it. until it was perfect. Replay, a new original comedy series on Go-90 follows Allison Lee, an aspiring DJ who gets more than she wishes for when she stuck repeating her disastrous 25th birthday party over and over again. Allison is forced to choose between impressing notorious Vegas club promoters Sven and Sophie or keeping her friends and faces the hard reality that sometimes you can't have it all. Now replay stars Lindsay Fonseca from Agent Carter, Tyler

James Williams from Everybody Hates Chris and Serena Fialo from Glee with special guest star YouTuber Mamry Hart. New episodes appear every Wednesday. Stream replay only on Go 90, a free mobile entertainment app available on iOS and Android, and go to www.com to watch the first episode of replay right now. Check it out. That's the show, guys. I'm Josh Horowitz. This is been happy, say I confused, hope you've enjoyed the show. Hit me up on Twitter, Joshua Horowitz. Go over to wolfpop.com. Check out all the amazing shows over there. And most importantly, check back in next week for another edition of Happy Sad. Confused.

Hi, everybody, this is David Gregory, and I want to tell you about my new podcast, The David Gregory Show. It is that easy to remember. And it's me talking to all sorts of really interesting people, getting them off their regular script into deeper, more personal conversations. Like Ariana Huffington about parenthood. I think especially for mothers, they take the baby out and they put the guilt in. Or Bravo TV's Andy Cohen on being less afraid. Look, I'm a single gay dude on a late night talk show. I can't overshare.

Who can? We'll have a new program every Friday, so go to iTunes, Stitcher, or whatever your favorite podcast app, and download the David Gregory Show and eavesdrop on really cool conversations. Thanks for listening. This has been an Earwolf production, executive produced by Scott Ackerman, Adam Sacks, and Chris Bannon.

For more information and content, visit Earwolf.com. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that dude.

to is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where you talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, musts season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks.

We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button.