Happy Sad Confused - Shawn Levy

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

Shawn Levy is riding high after STRANGER THINGS, FREE GUY, and landing a STAR WARS film. So what's he doing next? Mixing it up as he always does with DEADPOOL 3 and a WWII drama for Netflix, ALL THE LIGHT WE CANNOT SEE. Josh and Shawn cover it all in this chat. Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes of GAME NIGHT, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! FirstLeaf -- Try Firstleaf.com/HappySad Earnin -- Download Earnin today! Spelled E A R N I N in the Google play or Apple app store     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

D.C. high volume, Batman. The Dark Nights definitive DC comic stories adapted directly for audio for the very first time. Fear, I have to make them afraid. He's got a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot. What do you mean blow up the building? From this moment on,

none of you are safe. New episodes every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. How much heart and emotion is in Deadpool 3, Sean? I'm going to say this. You laugh, a fuckload more than you think. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

I'm Josh Horowitz. And today on Happy Say I Confused, it's director, Sean Levy. I'll try not to waste all my time with him today by listing his resume. But a few things worth mentioning. He's the executive producer of Stranger Things. He's the director of the night of the museum films. Real Steel, Free Guy, the upcoming Deadpool 3, and just to prove he can do just about anything,

he's directed a four-part Netflix adaptation of the Pulitzer Prize-winning bestseller, All the Light We Cannot See. He also happens to be one of the nicest human beings on the planet who has somehow never done the HappySat Confused podcast. Sean Levy, an official welcome to you. Thank you. And though I am new to Happy Sad Confused,

I am not new to you, Josh Horowitz. I feel like early in my career, I was talking to you at MTV News. Oh, sure. So I'm remembering right. I do want to like talk about that a little bit because I have vivid memories. I started at MTV about 17 years ago. And very early on, I did one of these things were like, I don't expect you necessarily to remember.

But I think someone set up like a meeting greet. We had a lunch. And at that time, especially in my career, I was nervous. I was like, I shouldn't be here. And you were so disarming, so cool. One of us, someone that. could talk to talk just like I could, but very relatable. And I've always appreciated that about you.

And I guess this is my way of saying, thank you 17 years later for making me feel comfortable at that lunch way back when. Retroactive, thank you, accepted. It's easy to be nice to you because you're nice. And the truth is, I mean, all these years later, I still love the job. I still love our whole industry of storytelling. And so I find it interesting to talk to people. who are equally passionate about it.

And obviously you are, you always were, you still are, and how lucky are we to get to work in a field that we actually get pumped about? It's truly one of the blessings of this of sticking around. I always say this is to kind of like ride alongside folks like you actors who go in unpredictable ways. And certainly you're a filmmaker and we'll get to this who has never been boxed in,

always pushing at boundaries and trying new stuff out. And we'll get to the new Netflix, series, which is a testament to that. But first, since we do have a little bit of the luxury of time, let's get our bearings a little bit. Nice Canadian boy, Sean Levy, obsessed with movies right from the start, a pop culture junkie. What were you like as a kid? Definitely pop culture junkie, obsessed with music, theater movies, but not like you hear stories of like JJ or Guillermo or frankly Duffers who were like studying the oeuvre of, John Carpenter when they were four.

But like every red-blooded human growing up in the 70s and 80s, certainly like early Spielberg, early Zemeckis, definitive Lucas, those were big touchstones. But I was heavy into theater, I was heavy into like new wave music because we Montrealers like to consider us a little bit edgy, little bit, a little bit avant-garde, a little bit Euro-Androgy, I might confess to a Duran Duran poster alongside the cure and the clash on my bedroom wall. You contain multitudes. Yeah, it's all good.

Can I use that? I'm definitely going to now on to introduce myself. Hi, Sean Levy. I contain multitudes. Don't box me in. Yeah. Don't box me in. But no, but it's interesting because I, something I talk about with I have four daughters. And one thing I talked to them a lot about is like, take your influences from everywhere. Because they are, you never. know when one will present itself and the things I've learned from different people, different creative artists over the years, not to emulate and try to be a replication of one of them, but rather to borrow traits from many of them. I think that's a really useful way to approach life. Did your passion for acting predate the passion for potentially directing and

eventually producing? It did until the moment where my passion for acting was definitely, with an ice bucket long before the ice bucket challenge. It was circa, it's late 80s. I'd been doing, I'd been like a theater kid, went to stage door manor, the kind of famous slash infamous theater camp. And I went to Yale as an undergrad, and I was a classmate of Paul Giamades.

And I remember doing plays with Paul. And being as a freshman in One Flo Over the Cuckoo's Nest with Paul. And I played Billy Bivit and he was McMurphy. And I remember being mid-performance in front of an audience watching Paul just act my ass off, like circles around me. And I remember this kind of very conscious thought at 19 years old. Oh, that's what great looks like. That's what great looks like.

Maybe I'm good. Maybe I could be pretty good. But boy, I'd sure love to find something I might get great at. And that was the beginning, thanks to that kind of coexistence with Paul, where I started directing in college. too. And that was really, so really late teens, early 20s, that was ultimately culminated senior year. I directed that same friend, Paul Giamatti, and who's at great of Virginia Woolf. And that was the moment where I thought, oh, okay, maybe this is something that I could really pursue excellence in without being burdened by self-consciousness, which was always that piece

that kept me back from being a great actor. Yeah, you got to get out of your own head. That's the key for any actor. I kind of never can. That's kind of unfair to be like, I mean, it's the gift to be to know Paul, but like one of the great actors of the last 30 years happens to be your buddy at Yale School of Drama. And you know the lucky thing, Josh, is then a few years later, and I went up going to film school, did some TV for Nickelodeon Disney Channel.

My first movie, Big Fat Liar, hired Paul Giammati as Marty Wolf, which is a name that means very little to some people. But if you grew up in a certain bandwidth a year, you know Marty Wolf and Big Fat Liar. Oh, sure. an indelible image that probably haunts him to this day. Has he, have the doctors screened all the,

has the blue come out of his hair? Is he okay? Let me be clear. This was like, I want to say pre-mistique, pre-visual effects. This is like, yo, Paul, you're sitting in the chair for four hours, and they are airbrush spraying you with blue paint that you will need like a scrub brush and turpentine to get off of you. So, yeah, that was the beginning. Is it not a coincidence? Wait, has he worked with you since? Is the friendship over?

He has rigorously avoided working with me since. We're still friends, but we haven't been repeat collaborating. He knows what you're capable of. I blame. So when you look back at that and now with this insane resume you've accumulated over the last a couple decades, are you markedly different on a set now? You've obviously accrued many new skills, but are you generally the same guy, the same skill set? It's interesting because my wife, Serena, who I met on my student film when I was 23. She always points out that whether it's my student film, an episode of The Secret Role of Alex Mack, which was one of my first credits, Big Fat Liar or Deadpool, I'm the same guy and I approach the work the same way, which is

a little obsessively, certainly joyously. I love leading a team. I love kind of getting swept up in a wave of enthusiasm with other creative people. I've definitely, I think, learned my craft and gotten better over the years, but the spirit and the kind of the approach, the guy that I am when I run a set is the same. So we obviously don't have time to delve into all the work you do subsequent to Big Fat Liar, but like just to give folks a sense. And I think folks that listens to the podcast know the work of Sean Levy,

but just to give you folks a sense of the breadth of what he did. So we were talking to Pink Panther. We talk about the night at the museum trilogy, date night, real steel. You're on an amazing, relatively quick ascendancy out of Big Fat Liar. And it's not like one specific lane, though comedy was a strong part of what you were known for. Did you feel like to encapsulate that decade plus of work, you were on a specific path? Like were you in your mind heading in one direction or were you kind of just like grabbing the best material at the time? Okay, first of all, never expected to get successful in comedy.

I was not like, I wasn't one of these comedy nerds who kind of would list, you know, caddy shack and, you know, like all the, you know, Groundhog Day. Like, I loved comedies, but I loved Kramer versus Kramer. I loved Rain Man, One Flo over the Cuckoo's Nest, Dog Day Afternoon, Godfather. Like, I love dramas too, and I love action movies. I just got successful first at comedy and I found that oh wow I know how to speak this language and I definitely know how to speak the language of comedic artists right I did two in a row with Steve Martin early in my career cheaper by a dozen in Pink Panther did a bunch in a row with Ben Stiller

did several with Tina Faye so I had incredible influences early so I didn't feel like I was on a track you know what I felt a bit I felt like it was in a box Right. You were pigeonhole. You were. And I was, right? And like, I'm not complaining and I wasn't complaining because the Vox was velvet lined and it was cozy warm and paid the bills very nicely. And I'm most grateful that it connected me with audiences, which was and still is my driving goal, my aspiration. But I wondered back then if I would ever be allowed to direct in different tones and genres. And I started my company 21 Labs after Night at the Museum because I didn't know if I'd ever get the chance to direct in a range of tone and genre, but boy, I was going to be goddamn sure to produce and create in some fashion a range of work. That was the goal. And early on, I produced a little movie that if you, it's beloved, even though it's tiny,

it was called The Spectacular Now. And it won a key award at Sundance. And that was like a $2.2 million movie. It was one of the earliest things that I produced but didn't direct. It's something I made at 21 laps. And that was the first disruptor. That was the first poster on my wall that kind of it complicated people's perception of what I was and what 21 laps was about. And as such, I've always said that project is more about.

than movies that made 500 times at the box office because it was disruptive to this pigeonhole idea of what I was and what 20 laps was. And years later, that would lead to arrival and stranger things. And weirdly, those things have led to this new chapter in my directing life where I'm having a ball because I'm doing a variety of genres and tones the way I dreamed might happen. 15 years ago when I was making the night at museum movies. Is that part of why also, I know you have, and the audience feels this way too, a special place in your heart for something like Real Steel, which felt like,

you know, you're talking about kind of like growing up on Spielberg or whatever, like back in the day, Spielberg would have directed a Real Steel. Like, that's the kind of Ambly movie. Real Steel is really special. Real Steel, like, the fact that Real Steel is the single most frequently cited movie of mine on social media. People find me

every day, every day for now 11 years to talk about Real Steel, to ask about a sequel, to ask about the show. Real Steel is in line with what I'm describing, Josh. You're absolutely right, because Real Steel didn't quite fit in. Right. And I was grateful at that time to Spielberg and to Stacey Snyder, who came to me with that movie. And it's not a comedy. It's kind of a father, son drama with a big dose of high concept action. And it was the first non-comedy I directed, which is to say also it was the first time that I could stage scenes and use lighting and composition and a visual style that is not in service of the laugh. You know, something that people talk about a lot, but it's real. When you have a $15, $20 million comedic star at the center,

your main job every day is set it up for that genius to be funny and that means all decisions camera movement lighting pacing blocking it's all in service of the laugh and it's like a very it's a clarity of purpose and it's actually something i was going to get to like as you start to do more and this is where i leave you which obviously has comedy involved too but although we cannot see but is certainly not a comedy. It, like, that's something where you as a director, as the, as the person, you know, helming the ship have to be kind of like your own, I don't know, you have to have judgment and know, like, how do you know you're succeeding?

There's an A and B thing in comedy. It's either working or it's not working. Yeah, well, let me tell you two things. I want it, that's a great question, but you touch on something along the way to that question that's worth noting because I know, I mean, filmmakers like me listen and watch your show, but I'm sure a lot of aspiring. emerging talent does as well. Early on, literally starting

with Big Fat Liar, through just married, definitely through the first night museum. Every time I would set out to do a comedy, I'm like, I'm going to break the rules this time. I want it to be edgier lighting, more chiaroscuro. I want to move the camera in a more dynamic way than comedy normally

does. And early on, I got swatted. I got swatted emphatically by the studio who would watch the alleys and go, what are you doing? Why you, why are you putting so many barriers of entry to the funny in the movie between the viewer and the star? As I got older and as I did more and more, I started to realize, shit, these rules are real. The truth is that if you clutter the frame in certain ways with ponderous lighting

or camera movement that calls attention to itself, anything that is an obstacle to the comedic performance does reduce the funny. And so these rules have evolved. They're not even rules. These these kind of principles of directing comedy exist for a reason. There's a reason if you watch movies by Judd or other comedic geniuses, generally you're talking static frame. You're talking sometimes physical humor in a wide frame, but very often funny words said in a tightish frame by funny people, right? That's the nature of how these conventions evolve. But, you know, To your second question, judging the success of drama.

When you make all the light, we cannot see, how do you know it's working on set? Does it have to feel truthful? Does it have to feel what? When I first made, actually, it's Chris Columbus who told me this. When we first previewed Night at Museum, which Chris was a producer on, there were sections that were more about suspense or spectacle.

And I had only done comedies. When you make a comedy, the barometer is clear. If it's quiet, you're failing. If they're laughing, you're winning. Very simple, clean metric. And I started making Night Museum, which had sections that were less about comedy

and definitely things like Real Steel, this where I leave you and all the light, you have to trust that the audience is engaging in your storytelling in ways that can't be measured by such simple metrics. and it took me several movies and shows to trust that audience engagement in the absence of an overt tell.

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visit bemo.com slash viporter to learn more okay so let's talk a little bit about this current project so this is an ambitious piece of work man this is four parts on Netflix. For those that don't know, the source material won the Pulitzer Prize, is said in World War II. While you do have some name actors in there, the great Hugh Lurie, Mark Ruffalo, you're really, really leaning on some very green performers. And that is a, that's a, that's a tall order. But if we know anything about Sean Levy, you know how to coax, maybe it's the wrong word, but get great performances and work with great actors of all

of all stripes. Well, let's start there. Let's start like in terms of the approach to working with different actors. You have a young, you have two young ladies actually playing, one, the central role in this. Talk to me about working with them versus working with, you know, Oscar-nominated performers. Well, I have over the years, as you've noted, I really do like combining veterans and discoveries. So, you know, whether it's Winona mixed with five, 11, and 12-year-olds who had done very little, whether it's Dakota Goya in Real Steel or Walker Scobel in the Adam Project.

I do love breaking someone. I love discovering treasure that no one's dug up yet. And so with this one, that was the goal to find a young girl and a young woman to play Marie, the protagonist, but there was

an added dimension, which is while I auditioned hundreds and hundreds of girls and young women, I was also opening it up to contenders who were blind or low vision because the character Marie is blind in this story. And so I got hundreds of auditions from around the world. And out of those hundreds, I noticed this one. It's a young woman named Ariamia Mia Liberti, who was a Fulbright scholar, who was studying to get her Ph.D. in rhetoric. And not only has never acted before,

Josh has never auditioned before, but there was something raw and smart and fierce and luminous about her in her very first audition that made me kind of, it's what you always hope happens in audition where you're sitting in the room, you're sitting watching links, and you're just like, holy shit, holy shit, I think this is something. And you can feel it, right? And I, and indeed, she got the part. And imagine doing a job you've never done before. for learning how to do it in front of hundreds of people while you learn that would be terrifying to you and me like go teach a go teach a class on you know physics right what that is how for it acting was for our in front of great physicists in front of you yes well exactly that's what

but you look I but I do love coaxing educating helping a performance become great yeah and And that is the job, whether you're directing Steve Martin or Aria LaBerty, the job of the director, among other things, is create an environment where that actor can be great. And in my experience, whether it's comedy or drama, it cannot happen if they are not comfortable and trust that they're safe. And earning that trust is done differently actor to actors. Sometimes it's with levity. Sometimes it's with seriousness and kind of of clarity. Sometimes it's just a vibe you create on the set and part of why my job is interesting to me every day is the language that you have to find with each actor is different job to job

and it's different actor to actor even within the same movie or show. We've obviously found and this certainly is the case of something like stranger things where like the line between TV and film is bored. I mean what the duffers are doing on the small screen could just as easily maybe should be on the big screen as well. I've said to many people, they're like, what's your favorite movie? I'm like, Dear Billy. Right.

Like literally, my Dear Billy episode is as, it's as ambitious, complex, and it's something I'm as proud of as any feature film that I've directed. So, you know, the line is blurred, and I think it should be because the ambitions and the achievements in television these days are staggered. And if people check this,

one out they'll see just this the impeccable production of this the james newton howard score is gorgeous everything about this feels you know prestige it makes it may almost feel stodgy but just makes it feel elevated and really special that was that's one reason i directed all the episodes myself i wanted it to feel i just approached it like a movie and stephen knight wrote all the all the episodes he obviously is brilliant one of the best out there yeah i knew his work from peekie blinders among other things But when I read the first episode, the first draft of the first episode by Stephen, and it was already excellent, I went from saying, okay, I'm going to produce this to, oh, no, I'm going to direct it. And I'm going to not just direct episode one. I'm going to direct all of them because I wanted to treat it cinematically. And so that was very much the goal. So this show, we're talking a couple weeks before it launches. I think this is going to be released right around launch, which is November 2nd on Netflix. God knows where we're going to be at in the world November 2nd,

but right now it's a fraught time, to say the least. And I would imagine this material, I don't know, is it resonating differently with you today? I mean, you know, it's a scary time. I might get inarticulate. Yeah, when I was captivated by the book, I was really kind of compelled by these themes of how do you maintain humanism

in the face of inhumanity. How do you maintain any hope in your heart in the face of a world that breaks our heart? That was true in World War II. I was shooting this show in Hungary adjacent to Ukraine while Russia was invaded. So already when I was shooting the show, I was taken aback by how timely these themes were.

And now to be releasing the show in the middle of a Middle East conflict that is horrific, from top to bottom, just unspeakably horrific. And I'm struggling with how do I not just get despondent about the nature of humankind? How do I not lose hope and any faith in the possibility of goodness and kindness and empathy um this show has ended up being topical and thematically resonant in ways that honestly i wish it wasn't but i have to acknowledge it clearly is um switching gears which is hard to do on a subject like that but let's let's let's do our we'll do our we'll do our best um you know you talked about sort of the commonality and among all the genres and that you dipped into and heart and

emotion being in all the work um how much heart and emotion is in dead three, Sean. I'm going to say this. You laugh, a fuckload more than you think. Okay. I'm not surprised. Yeah. I'm so wary. And thank God I've been on Stranger Things for

almost a decade because it's trained my mouth to be a little less blathering. But one thing that Ryan and I were really united in is wanting to make Deadpool 3 very much consistent and contiguous with the franchise DNA, but to see where we could evolve in this third movie. And once we knew it was a Wolverine Deadpool movie, my God, what a gift to any storyteller, because not only do you have two icon actors playing their most iconic roles, but you have two characters whose dynamic is already famously fraught.

And any time you're dealing with characters who start from a place of deep dislike and conflict and difference from each other, right, the mouth and the like surly, laconic, man, a few words. What a great formula for storytelling. And ultimately, the movie does have much. more character depth and heart than I think anyone is expecting. If 10% of the rumors around this film, and my dog is very excited about this, if 10% of the rumors around this film are true, you've got gold on your hands. Tell me this. I'm not going to like ask you specifics. Is there one cameo you landed that blew your mind

that was like, wait, we actually got him or her? Yeah. And what blew my mind also is how easy some of those cameos have been. People love Deadpool. People love Ryan. Thankfully, people also seem to like my work. They know that Ryan and I are in a groove of creative brotherhood that is unique and seems to be working. So yeah, there's, I love the proliferation of casting rumors around my movie because there's so many that it's impossible to know what's real and what's made up. And so all I'll say is, yeah, this movie, starting with Ryan and Hugh, but definitely in other areas, some of whom the world knows about Matthew McFaddy and Emma Corrin, really just going to work is a delight. I'm not going to exploit what is a person

friendship with the lovely Taylor Swift, but has the word dazzler ever escaped anyone's lips when you've been in a room with Taylor? It sure escapes the lips of social media every day, and that's all I'm going to say. Would she be a good dazzler, just whether it's you or someone else directing? Sounds like a great idea. I pay big money for that. A lot of people would. I'm just saying. I literally, I feel like, oh, wow, I went to a football game a couple of a few weeks ago. And, uh, and I had a really good time with friends. And I am thrilled to be talking about other things. Fair enough. Fair enough. Um, a couple more things. Again, I know you have a bit of a road left after the strike ends to finish up Deadpool three. But does this

feel like it's, I mean, it's obviously part of the MCU. That's the excitement of it is like it is introducing these Fox characters into the MCU. But does it feel like it's going to have ramifications on the MCU or are you just kind of like a side story or somewhere in between? I'm so wary of giving anything away because I've learned the hard way that with a few titles like any Marvel title, everything and anything you say can lead to not only rumors but misinformation. I'll just say this. It's very much part of the MCU. What a privilege. what a wealth of resources and knowledge. But the biggest thrill for Hugh Ryan and I

is that we're making very much the movie we hoped to make. One hears rumors all the time, good, bad, everywhere in between about what certain studios are like to work at. I'll just say that this Deadpool movie co-starring Wolverine is very much aligned with the DNA of the Deadpool franchise. And there's been nothing but support in making the movie audacious, gritty, hilarious, and gnarly. Don't let Hugh hear you describe it that way, by the way. This is a Wolverine movie.

This is a Wolverine movie co-starring Deadpool. Well, if you know, Hugh, which I know that you do, you know that the other gift of this gig, is that it's two mega movie stars who also happen to be the two nicest movie stars. I was going to say, what a bonus that it's insane. I seem nice, right? Suddenly, I'm the asshole. You were definitely the asshole. Yeah.

Gosh, in that triangle of friendship, I'm the asshole because Hugh and Ryan are so goddamn nice. I will go on record. I mean, I've said it many times, and it's no surprise. Many have said it. Hugh Jackman is the kindest, has been so, so kind to me in my career on and off camera. And please give him my best. I haven't seen him since before the pandemic, which is insane. He's the sweetest and best man on the planet, so I love him. He's the prophet of sorts who predicted this collab with Ryan. He told me on the set of real steel

this is actually happened. If you ever work with Ryan Reynolds, you'll never stop. You guys are built to be best friends. And all of that's come to pass. Ontario, the wait is over. The gold standard of online casinos has arrived. Golden Nugget online casino is live. Bringing Vegas-style excitement and a world-class gaming experience right to your fingertips. Whether you're a seasoned player or just starting, signing up is fast and simple. And in just a few clicks, you can have access to our exclusive library of the best slots and top-tier table games.

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Goodbye. Summer movies, hello fall. I'm Anthony Devaney. And I'm his twin brother, James. We host Raiders of the Lost Podcast, the Ultimate Movie Podcast, and we are ecstatic to break down late summer and early fall releases. We have Leonardo DiCaprio leading a revolution in one battle after another, Timothy Salome playing power ping pong in Marty Supreme. Let's not forget Emma Stone and Jorgos Lantamos' Bagonia. Dwayne Johnson, he's coming for that Oscar. In The Smashing Machine, Spike Lee and Denzel teaming up again, plus Daniel DeLuess's return from retirement.

There will be plenty of blockbusters to chat about, too. Tron Aries looks exceptional, plus Mortal Kombat 2, and Edgar writes, The Running Man, starring Glenn Powell. Search for Raiders of the Lost podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Okay, it's official. We are very much in the final sprint to Election Day. And face it, between debates, polling releases, even court appearances. It can feel exhausting, even impossible to keep up with.

I'm Brad Milkey. I'm the host of Start Here, the Daily Podcast from ABC News. And every morning my team and I get you caught up on the day's news in a quick, straightforward way that's easy to understand with just enough context so you can listen, get it, and go on with your day. So kickstart your morning. Start Smart with Start Here and ABC News because staying informed shouldn't feel overwhelming. Let's talk a little stranger things, past, present, future. What a gift. What an amazing accomplishment between you and the Duffers and this amazing cast. I'm curious, when you guys were developing that, when you were casting that, was it more difficult to get Netflix to approve David Harbor? to be one of your main adult leads

or to convince Winona Ryder to do a series? Great question. You always, you give a good interview. It's why you're succeeding. Winona opened our first meeting. The Duffers and I sat down and had tea with her. She opened by asking, what is Netflix? What is streaming?

Is it like TV but different? That was the starting time. Sean, when she did my podcast at the end, end of the podcast. She asked, wait, was this a podcast? What did we just do? So that is on brand. I adore that woman. Me too. The truth is things like David Harbors audition for Stranger Things, Millie, Gaten, all are now very famous series regulars. Those auditions were inarguable. They were so, I remember David's audition tape. And back then he was like that guy who had maybe been number eight on the call sheet in 120 movies, but you just, when, when you stumble

into the alignment of actor and character, and when they line up in the magic way you dream of, it's instantly, inarguably palpable. And that's how it was with Harbor, just as that's how it was with our young cast. But yeah, Winona took a little onboarding to explain this emerging form of storytelling called Netflix and streaming. I spoke to the Duffers right when they launched the last season, and obviously a lot of work has been done since then in getting these scripts ready. Harbour told me relatively recently.

He'd read a bunch of them, so definitely... I know that went everywhere. Thank you, David. Now I can be a little less careful about what I say. There you go. Okay, so just, again, I know we have to dance around this. Is there a push and pull in terms of, like, you want to honor what the series has been?

You don't want the last season to feel. totally different, but you also want to go out big and epic, because especially the last season was that. So can we expect this final season to feel like the last seasons, or is there an effort to kind of make it even more cinematic, bigger in whatever way that means? No, this season is epic and broad in its cinematic scope, but it's very much stranger things. And I have to credit the Duffers, they have always, you read the outline sometimes and it's just, it's massive, massive. But then you read the scripts and you remember again and again and again that their instinct for anchoring the epic in the intimate and for anchoring the darkness of genre in the warmth of these characters, it's so innate to them. It is, in my opinion, one of their greatest superpowers.

And as a result, season five, like every season before, gets bigger in scale, but doesn't forget who and what it is. Are we getting a happy ending for Joyce and Hopper? Tell me that. Are they okay? Just make me, I need to sleep tonight. I don't want to be responsible for your insomnia, but no comments. Fair enough.

We talked about the cinematic nature of the show. Do you think you'll have at least the last episode? Will you try to release this in theaters in some capacity? You've got, I mean... For many years now, I've been dying just as an audience member, which is, at the end of the day, I'm still a guy sitting in the audience who wants to be delighted.

Even when I'm directing, I'm thinking about what would it feel like if you're watching it? And that kind of is my roadmap. I would love to see... I mean, honestly, I'd love to see a whole screening series of Stranger Things in theaters because the brothers are just magnificently cinematic filmmakers, and the work that they're doing is clearly as ambitious and well-crafted as any movie. And I would love to see us go out with the biggest bang possible.

And if a theatrical experience can be part of that, that would make me personally super happy. And last thing on the Stranger Things front, one last I spoke with them, they had said that, yes, they have this, quote, spin-off idea that they were at that time looking for a showrunner. Where's it at? Where's the Stranger Things spinoff? Along with the show itself, we've been in a long pause. We've emerged from the writer's strike. We're still in an actor's strike. All of this needs to be picked up and re-engaged. re-engaged with, I guess, would be a better sentence. Thankfully, we have one more topic to talk about that you can talk about at length,

which is Star Wars. Yeah. Just remember, is now where we remind people that we started off talking about all the light we cannot see. Yes. We also watch that. We're wearing that in. This is, guys, this is not medicine. This is a great show.

Check it out on Netflix. All the light we cannot see. People are a prize winning material. Right? Like, you know, you've known me a long time. whether it's a historic drama or its genre or it's comedy, I'm making things for audience pleasure. This is the business I've chosen.

Trust in this man. It is consistent with that, I think. I also trust in Star Wars. We all grew up on Star Wars. Just generally speaking, that I assume rocked your world like anybody else. You grew up in the late 70s, early 80s. How could Star Wars not change your life? What does it feel like to be potentially a director of an upcoming Star Wars movie?

It's almost impossible to say without a grin. It's very flattering, very thrilling. I mean, I was one of those kids, the 70s and 80s. For some reason, it's Jedi that I remember seeing the most times in the theater. I don't even know what year was that. 83, 83. Yeah. So, like, wow, at least a dozen times.

Yeah, you were at 12 then. That's perfect. Of course he did. Yeah, it definitely shaped me. It definitely shaped me. So, wait, your movie is all about Ewox. That's the reveal. That's the exclusive you're saying?

I can confirm it's not. I'll take it. The one thing I'm allowed to say, it is not an Ewok origin story. How far long is it? Do you have like a treatment to start? Not as far long. Definitely have an idea.

Again, long pause and now very much re-engaging. But it's development. I mean, it's early development. And, but I'll also say, I really want to make that movie. And obviously, Kathy and Filoni and all the kind of the brain trust at Lucasfilm, they're trying to juggle and coordinate a lot of pieces in film and in television. But the spirit of Kathy's outreach to me, which was your movies have a consistent sense of fun and warmth. and that's what we want the Sean Levy Star Wars movie to be.

That's what we want Star Wars to be. I'm running with that mandate. It's the only way I know how to approach the work anyway. And so to play in that sandbox, it's a blast. It's a blast. And every day just cooking up ideas. Oh, my God. I don't actually like rub my non-existent beard, by the way.

You've got a pipe and a monocle. You're basically Mr. Monopoly. Yeah. Then people would really view me more as an intellectual and in our teeth. You're smoking jacket. Yeah. And I've got, yeah.

But anyway, it's ongoing, it's a long runway. What makes, what do you think what makes great Star Wars? Like, you must have thought about this. Like, what is, like, does it, is it, is it Jedi? Is it the mystery? Is it the fun? Is it the humor? Is it?

I really think, I mean, listen, we've seen different tones succeed, right? We've seen Andor and its strength. We've seen Force Awakens and its strengths. We've seen Ryan's, you know, Star Wars. movie and its strengths. For me, and again, I can only, I can only make things that flow from me in an intuitive way. For me, it is, and I guess this reconnects to the, to episode four, five, and six, it is a combination of swashbuckling fun, swagger, but also a depth of relationship connections, what are you willing to sacrifice for, either a person or an idea.

And in the best Star Wars movies, it's both. All I can say is you have quite a stable of actors you've worked with. I can't wait to see Hugh Jackman, Ryan Reynolds, Jody Comer. I'll take any of them as Jedi. Come on, put a lightsaber in any of their hands. I'd love to see that too. We talked about all the great movies you've made. There are also many projects I remember talking to you many times about things that came close to happening way back when there was the flash, there was hearty men, which I still can't believe never happened. That sounds like on paper such a great idea. Was there, is there one that that still sticks in your crawl? Like, oh, we had the script. We had the idea. This would have been a passion project.

That's a really, I'm happy to say I'm not burdened with a lot of regret. I will say, and the movie that they made turned out different than the one that I would have made and the one that I developed. But I did spend a lot of time on Uncharted. Right. And definitely, you know, was involved and personally developed

the earliest drafts of that Nathan origin story. And, you know, had talks in those times and in those months with Tom Holland and took a different. deep dive into the lore and into the character. I don't, it all worked out for a reason. I left uncharted to make Free Guy, and that proved to be a defining creative experience, both as a movie, but also just as in my life now, I met my, like, I, how many of us make a new best friend in adulthood? It doesn't really happen. No, it does. Well, it happened for Ryan and me, and so

we have free guy to think. But yeah, just Uncharted was one. I can't say I regret the decision, but sometimes you really pour a lot of yourself into a project and then you have to watch it go off into the world as its own thing. And that was my experience with Uncharted. So no bad feelings, no regret, but one that I definitely poured a lot of time and creative sweat into. Is there an actor that you haven't directed, whether it's Tom Holland or somebody else? You worked with so many actors clearly love working with you, who's still on the short list right now of someone you're done to work with. proves marl robbie yeah those are that's a good list you've thought about it

i have thought about it because there's not that many i've been really lucky so like mcfadion would have been on that list because i've been you know watched succession for years thinking what this guy is do same thing with jody comer watching killing eve like when i watch an actor and i'm like adam driver when i watched him on girls and then i put him in this is where i leave you. I watch Jody. Then I put her in Free Guy. I watch McFaddy in, put him in Deadpool 3. I love, you know what? One of the greatest perks of this job is I can get jacked up and excited about a talent. And I'm now able to find that talent, communicate, yeah. And collaborate with them. That is, that really, that's the biggest treat. That's the biggest treat. I had a similar

experience on all the light we cannot see with Hugh Lorry, who I just think he's the shit. And he's never played a part like Etienne in all the light we cannot see. And he was so down to play a character that was much more fragile and damaged and less strong than once he often plays. So that for me is maybe the greatest perk of the job is to collaborate with people whose talent I respect. And last thing for you, I saw you from afar. I didn't say, hey, but I was at the maestro.

premiere here in New York. I saw you were at that one. Are you seeing me, did you see me crouched in tears in the aisle hugging Bradley because I was so fucking moved by that achievement? I mean, there are some scenes in that that people will be talking about. I literally, I am raising my hand to moderate at least one panel just to talk about the confidence of the single shot scene, not the show off steady kind, but the static frame. And Bradley and Maddie LaBetechique's use and confidence in the static frame in that movie Maestro is, frankly, maestro level achievement, in my opinion. Sean, I love you, but stop taking my gigs.

I need to do my interviews, my moderate. This is my day job. Stick with you. I don't go on your set and say, let me direct a day of free guy. You are completely right. I apologize. It's okay. It's okay.

really good at your job. So I'm going to let you keep doing yours and I'll just keep doing mine. All right. I'm going to heckle you when I see you interviewing of Bradley on stage. Congratulations on all the work, man. It's been way too long since we connected. I'm happy it happened for this really special project. All the light we cannot see. Guys, check it out. November 2nd. It's on Netflix, four parts. I mean, the commonality in Sean's work is humanity, impeccable filmmaking, great performances. It's all there in the very moving story. Please check it out.

Sean, thanks again, man. And please give my best to your buds, Ryan and Hugh. I will, indeed. Always a pleasure, Joss. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh.

Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom. You want to tell him? Or you want me to tell him? No, no, no. I got this. People out there. People, lean in.

Get close. Get close. Listen, here's the deal. We have big news. We got monumental news. We got snack-tacular news. Yeah, after a brief hiatus, my good friend, Michael Ian Black, and I are coming back. My good friend, Tom Kavanaugh, and I are coming back to do what we do best.

What we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack. a snack. And to rate a snack. Nentifically? Emotionally? Spiritually. Mates is back.

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