Happy Sad Confused - Shia LaBeouf

Episode Date: November 30, 2016

Shia LaBeouf has certainly packed a lot into his relatively short 30 years on this planet. From child star to a franchise leading movie star. From avant garde artist to outspoken asshole. He’s been labeled a lot of things (some unfairly, some he’ll cop to quite willingly) and he’s not afraid to talk about all of it in this very honest conversation with Josh Horowitz on this week’s “Happy Sad Confused”. Professionally this has been a banner year for LaBeouf, earning widespread acclaim for his role in “American Honey” and now returning to his roots, re-teaming with filmmaker Dito Montiel for “Man Down”, a PTSD drama co-starring Kate Mara and Jai Courtney. LaBeouf discusses his changing priorities for his career, how he’s obsessed with chasing truth, why he considers himself a blue collar actor, and whether he could imagine returning to a “Transformers” or “Indiana Jones” movie. The answers, like LaBeouf himself, will likely surprise you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute. This September, lease a 2026 X-E-90 plug-in hybrid from $599 bi-weekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event. Conditions supply, visit your local Volvo retailer

or go to explorevolvo.com. Don't miss Swiped, a new movie inspired by the provocative real-life story of the visionary founder of online dating platform Bumble. Played by Lily James, Swiped introduces recent college grad Whitney Wolfe as she uses grit and ingenuity to break into the male-dominated tech industry to become the youngest female self-made billionaire. An official selection of the Toronto International Film Festival, the Hulu original film Swiped, is now streaming only on Disney Plus. The Jeep Wrangler 4xE. It's electrified. So you can boogie, wugi, wugi up a mountain over creeks or boogie-wugi-wugi through a desert where you get bit by a pit viper.

So you boogie-wogie-wuggy back to camp and ask your friends if they'll suck the snake venom out. When they say, no, you boogie-wogie-woogie to the nearest hospital for a dose of antivenom. And boogie-woogie-woogie your way to a full recovery. The electrified Jeep Rangler 4-E. Learn more at jeep.com. Jeep is a registered trademark of FCA, U.S. LLC. Hey, guys, and welcome to happy, sad, confused. This week, Shailabuff on Art, Truth, and his new film, Man Down, and we take stock post Thanksgiving.

I'm Josh Horowitz. Hi, Sammy. Hi. I'm so excited. You're full of turkey. You're full of turkey. We're happy to be back. I'm full of turkey and happiness and love.

We needed a reset. We took a week off for the. the holiday. Hopefully you guys had a great holiday with friends and family. It was good to take a break, but we're thrilled to be back. And we're starting off this, not quite the new year, but the end of 2016 in good fashion. A bang. We're on location right now at another special auxiliary podcast studio location. We're in the podcast bunker. Exactly. The second bunker we have so that we can meet up with Shilabuff, as IT is in the opening. He is the one and only, guest this week and he uh packs a lot into this conversation he is um as you know um a fascinating actor

a fascinating personality and one of my favorite guys interview and it had been a while since i sat down with him um four years in fact um and he's he's been busy in those four years with his uh amazing art projects and and fascinating work he's in two films this year that are worth checking out american honey which i think is still in theaters and you guys should definitely check out it was It's a performance that that has already earned him an independent spirit award nomination and is one of the best of the year. And he's also starring in a new film that is about to come out called Man Down. It stars him and Kate Mara, Jai Courtney. Wow, look, it's all the podcast regulars.

I didn't even think of that. And he's excellent in it. Shia plays a soldier kind of suffering from PTSD. I don't want to say too much more because there's some kind of twists and turns to the story. But it does reunite him with Ditto Montiel. I believe that's how you pronounce his name. He was the filmmaker behind a guide to recognizing your saints, which is a very early shy-laba film.

So Sammy wasn't here, so Sammy's as interested as you guys. I just walked into the room that he was in, and the energy in here is just really wonderful. And he comes in with a great energy. He came in, really enthused and excited to be here and to reminisce about his, not so much his early work, we actually really focused mostly on sort of where he's been the last few years

and what like his kind of new approach to acting and really you know I mean it sounds kind of pretentious to say but like trying to like you know find the truth in acting and being true to himself and and experimenting with different acting techniques and and he's very eloquent and enthusiastic and talking about sort of what he's going after nowadays and explaining the reasoning behind his art projects and the kinds of filmmakers he's working with and why he's not necessarily doing those kinds of transformers. movies in Indiana Jones movies that kind of brought him to fame. He's in an interesting place. He just turned 30, just got married. I think he's, you know, we have a lot of great work ahead to see from Shilabu. I've always been a big fan and supporter of his. So I'm, I'm thrilled that we got a chance to catch up. I love Shailaba. He's great. Ever since Holes. I mean, come on. Holes was great. Holes was the best. People, yeah, a lot of people at MTV have a mad love for holes. Did you get into, I was going to say, did you get into holes? And everything just It got weird.

No, we saved holes for the next time. I'm sorry. Okay, well, no, it's like a little treat to look forward to. Yeah, we need to save something for the next time. You got to save something. You had a good turkey day. You had a good Thanksgiving. Yeah, really good.

How about you? Thanks for asking. You don't care. No, it occurred to me that you too celebrate Thanksgiving. Yes, it was lovely and did all the requisite stuff. A lot of nieces and nephew time and saw some movies. We saw Fantastic Beasts for a third time. You seen it three times?

Yeah. Wow. We're really sad. Nerd. It's a good movie. It's a really good movie. Yeah, I honestly do think as far as blockbusters go, this year it's one of my favorites. I love it.

I really do. It's great. I'm excited that we're going to get the chance to follow those guys through the next few years. What else to mention? We've got a bunch of cool things coming up. We're doing an after-hour sketch next week that we don't want to say who's involved, but it's another humongous one. Everyone's head will explode.

With giant movie stars, we're following up. The last one we did was, was the last one we did. Ezra. Oh, we did Ezra, which was great. Ezra Miller, and then we did Anna Kendrick and Ben Affleck. So, yeah, so we're trying to keep the bar pretty high. And a little Eddie Redmayne act. Yes.

A feature act. Yes, we did a little PSA with Eddie Redmayne, and we're going to experiment with that with another actor coming up. Anyway, so many teases. But enough about other projects. Let's get to the heart of the matter with Mr. Shiala Buff. We talked to him in our special auxiliary podcast studio. He's a wild man.

He roams all over the mic. Oh, my God, he's climbing up the window. Just in case you're wondering like, why. He's loud now. He's quiet now. Well, he moves around a bit. He can't keep a Shilov pinned down. But I hope you guys enjoy this conversation.

It was great to catch up with him and go support him by checking out his new film, Man Down. Without any further ado, here's Shil. let's get into it please yeah all right good make yourself comfortable wherever you guys want you don't want to lose the truth you know how sometimes you come into a room and then you that's for are you going to stand out yeah like that's intimidating that's okay that's really tough this is a really hard way to do this you know how you come in the first five go ahead yeah sure go for it you come in the first five minutes and then you do the high nice to meet you and they're and they're honest and then then you got to do it again yeah no we don't

need honesty here. Oh, yes, we do, bro. Let's start there. Should we jump in, Sean? Yes, please. We're doing it. Okay. She'll come back, but that's okay. We want the truth here.

The truth is that you need some water and we're going to have some water at some boys. The truth is I'm happy to see you, Josh. You know how long it's been since we've sat down? How long? Four years. Holy shit, man. What happened? Well, I started doing different stuff and they relegate you to certain stuff and we got lost

somewhere. But we're back together. Yeah, hey, man. It's cool. It's the middle ground. I'm beyond excited to see you, man. And congratulations. We're going to talk about a bunch of things.

Man, Down is the film that is about to come out, kind of a reunion of sorts with you and Dito. So, well, first of all, give me a sense of, since it has been four years, you've been up to a lot. I'm just frozen in amber. Nothing's changed for me. That's not true.

In case you're wondering, I'm literally the same person. This is pretty cool, man. This is pretty DIY. We weren't here before. This is true. I missed the long-form conversation. You know, we talked at a lot of junkets.

It's nice. And I missed the kind of actual. This is cool. Yeah. Are you a podcast listener? Yeah. What do you listen to? I was just listening to Fresh Air, a bunch of NPR stuff.

She's great. Yeah. And I like, I like, uh, I like, uh, uh, drink champs. I don't know that one. Oh, it's a hip hop one, like with, uh, yeah, and I like Charlemagne's podcast. Yeah. I'm all over the place. Have you, uh, have the record deals, uh, been coming in since sway?

I'm a one hit wonder, dude. It's not, never, never again. I'll never rap again. That was amazing. As somebody that, like, is not steeped in that stuff. Just to watch. What was exciting for me was, was, watch somebody that was like living a dream clearly totally and like and really grabbed the moment

yeah yeah yeah embraced it and and that's yeah it was a dream he's a huge cultural icon that show is huge yeah yeah so give me a sense okay so four years ago i think the last time we sat down was i think it was for wallace it was you and the lovely jessica chastain and a lot's happened since then obviously give me a sense of where you were at then versus now i mean that i know it's a broad question but like where was your head at in terms of career then versus now were you in a much different space you think oh for sure yeah i think you know i i've been trying to find myself i'm still in that thing but i think i've just been more questioning like identity as of late and and and that's led me to different kind of projects yeah and chasing truth you know i've been chasing truth so depending on

where i'm at temperature wise i've been really thank you very much moving towards that in my life as opposed to letting the business guide my decisions. Well, it seems like, and like to be the armchair psychologist for a second, like what it seemed to me was like you were like on a path. You were on a very clear kind of like tried and true Hollywood path. And you were kind of in many ways like at the apex of that, you know, the Transformers, Indiana Jones were the top like commercial filmmakers on the planet. And whether I guess my question is like whether it was like of your own like volition that you kind of decided to veer off

or what? Because, like, you clearly have started, you've charted a different path since then. I think nothing ever is. You sort of, you respond to your circumstance. Yeah. You know, and, like, I was given a bunch of gifts real fast and didn't know how to really deal with those gifts.

And then, you know, and then duty kicks in. And you go, well, how am I supposed to respond to receiving these gifts? And if you're a kid like me who came from a certain kind of come up, it doesn't feel natural to receive all these gifts like this. It was a new thing for me. So I didn't know how to really juggle. that in my head and in my choices and I wasn't really making choices I was signed you

know I'm one of the last kind of like Hollywood deals where they sign you for five years kind of thing and then they give you three nose a year oh you were like the paramount guy for a while basically because I came in when when Paramount and Dreamworks had their merger and I was right under the toe of that with Disturbia was the first movie they made together so it was the beginning of a deal between I was in the middle of a lot of corporate and so and and that was a blessing in a lot of way because I got to nurture certain gifts you know and and and work on set dynamics and presence and things like that, but it also, like what we talked about when we first sat down, it relegates you to a, it gets harder, it gets harder to get

to sensibilities that I, that do exist in my generation, not just me and my person, but in my generation, that weren't being expressed by filmmakers because they were of a different generation. Right. So in trying to speak to my truth, I needed to get with filmmakers who, who had different sensibilities and the guys who work at that level aren't of that generation it's just very hard it's like we were talking about this earlier people in the art world who are considered young are in their mid 30s early 40s right in the director world it's even later because it's the last dictatorial

position on a film set you wind up with a much older generation running stuff that's high level big budget because it's less about the creative and it's more about management and trust and tried and true and if you're a new young buck you know you might have the vision is the of art to you. Correct. So you're in a conundrum, and I'm not the first to speak on it, and I'm not even the most eloquent when it comes to it, but that got itchy, that position of being

in the middle of that, and being in your middle of your come-up when you know your window for interesting projects is coming when you turn 30. This is Happy Say I Confused. We'll be right back after this. It's electrified So you can boogie-woogie-woogie

Googie-woogie into the forest Boogie-woogie-woogie through the mud Or boogie-woogie-woogie to work Where you boogie-woogie down the hall To your boss's office to tell him you quit Then you boogie-woogie-woogie to the elevator As he boogie-woogie-woogie's after you begging Please take me with you

The Electrified Jeep Grand Charity 4xE Learn more at jeep.com Jeep is the registered trademark of FCAUS LLC With someone like Dito, like early on in the career. Was that a filmmaker that you sensed was you were similar sensibilities was kind of like out there in a good way for you? Yeah. I mean, yeah. And it was like, yes, that's the quick. So what's the big, I mean, obviously huge differences. You're at a much different age now than for a guide to recognizing your saints. But was it a little bit of a

full circle moment? Did it feel weird kind of going back to it? Yeah, 100%. And I was also at a place where, you know, I was in the middle of this like identity exploration in a very public way. This is like bag on head moments coming out of some of that. And like, and with like with anything, even with the word hello, when you say it 50 times, it has a different meaning the 50th time than it did the first time. So even if you're, no one ever gets your stuff, the commitment to it somehow makes it safer. Right. And so the fact that I was able to keep doing it somehow made it more edible to the mainstream public. And he came in at a time when I had only done two or three of these project so it was really very itchy out there for me you know and it was a lot of friction and so he came

into my room and was sort of like look I know you got some some rub in your life and and this project that I'm present to you has a lot of me too in it and that might help you and let's call this an exorcism of sorts and can I come back here on Wednesday so I read the script and I'm like there is a lot of me too in there oh boy yeah I'm all over this right here and this is what I was actually going through, even though I'm not a warfighter. There's a lot of rub in there that's very close. And I come from a family of warfighter. So, you know, my dad was in there even though it wasn't my role. And I'm in there even though I'm not Gabe. And so there was a lot of me in there. So I thought, okay, I can't go wrong here. If I just am honest and reveal myself to Ditto and he gets it. And Ditto already knew

me. So I felt like I could. And it was just one of them, it was like another gift, man. It just came at the right time. And it's a film that's about a number of things. I mean, on the surface, I think it's about PTSD, obviously. I've heard you talk about this, and it's an interesting kind of analysis. Like, it's about sort of what you've said, I think, is like just how work affects us, right? Like, how it kind of can, we can bring that home and it can damage us in many ways. Sure.

Do you find that that work over the years has been, like, a respite for you, or has work kind of, like, damaged your personal life in some ways? I feel like on that, like, a block of clay on that spindle thing, and work is like the, is like the incisor cutting me up. I'm shaping myself on choices. You know, like, that's the big version of a small thing. And we're also at a place now where every choice, you know, in the 80s, not every choice was political. I could buy this water with no politics attached to it, you know?

And now we're at a place where because the world is in a very severe spot, in a very polarized spot, and very divided spot, everything I do has politics attached to it. Your aesthetic choices are your political. choices. Your social choices are your political choices. And so I think, yeah, my choices have shaped my aesthetic, have shaped my social interactions, have shaped my everything. It is my, I'm parenting myself on choice. How are you approaching the work differently if you are at this point? Like, I mean, do you kind of go in with the same kind of? Yeah, that's the thing is I'm not approaching

the work any differently. I'm approaching the more work probably maybe with more freedom, you know, because that tribe and truth thing we talked about when you go off into the corner and start doing your funny business nobody looks at you crazy if you've done it three or four times right the first time though it's probably right around lawless when i saw hardy doing that kind of stuff and i was like hmm okay there is no special rules to this this is uh do whatever it takes and if that's what it takes you know then that's what it takes and i had never seen the actor do that the actors had been around prior to that all had the tradition and tradition is is a jail cell and here i'm staring at a dude who was free and I'm going I want it bad I want it real bad and so you fake it till you make it

you try certain things that you think might be getting you closer to truth and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't you know I throw a bunch of shit at the wall and see see what sticks for me I don't have a lot of faith in my talent because that word is funny to me because I'm from the I'm a Simpsons kid so you know the idea of talent is modernist and old by the time it gets to me and I'm of the blue collar mentality where we're all it's an egalitarian internet i came up with we're all equal so what special skill do i have i'm a boxer you know these are ordinary dudes with extraordinary determination and i think actors are the same way and when i saw hard i saw that in him just a hard worker who went about it like a roofer and i was like i'm going there

that's where i want to go so from lawless on my style and my choices was sort of a as if kind of you know it's not stanislavski but it's an as if stanislavski yeah yeah and as i recall on Wallace. I mean, because of that, I think there was some friction because you went at him as just as much as he was going after everyone. He was he was pushing and you, it sounds like you respond to that and you're like, okay, if you're going to push and mad love though, we were, it was never, the way it was all reported was that we had this crazy contentious thing. It was brothers. It sounds like you had actually the utmost respect for him. Man, it's supreme love. Reverence. Yeah. Yeah, but I can't revere him like a Gary.

Gary is, because Gary is further along in his path and what I needed with Hardy was was connection. What I needed with Gary and still is I have never worked with Gary where I needed connection with Gary other than maybe two or three moments in Man Down. This is Gary Oldman for context and he was also in lawless of course. And so I'm looking, you know, before I met Hardy, Gary was on my list. And then you meet a Hardy and you go, boy, he's on the list too and you see how they work differently. One guy has the tradition in a way that works for him and one guy comes up at a different time. It's two different styles also. I would also say I'm very different than Hardy in style. I think he's much

more of a representational actor, meaning he can wear many hats and do these accents and do these walks and has these intricate details to his performance, whereas you look at a Joaquin Phoenix, it's more of a presentational performance. So I'm trying to find where I'm at, and there's different styles and ways of doing it. What I saw in Hardy was something exciting. It was like a clown going to Cirque de Soleil. What about the aspect, though, and you tried this a couple of times in different contexts. I think he did it on Wallace and a little bit on Charlie Countryman, in terms of like doing the thing, whether it was drinking or taking a drug or something like that. Was that the right path?

Did it feel right in the, I mean, I guess I felt right at the time. But in retrospect, was that, again, just sort of experimenting with a way to just do it. And I'm a Disney Channel kid to a Spielberg kid to a trans, you know, a Transformers kid to a, I was very, my come up is quite corporate. So I was bucking a lot of stuff personally. But all that was in the public. So like, yeah, it was a lot of it is experimentation. Some things aren't necessary. and you do them anyways

because they are they're like putting the bumpers up on the on bowling you go to a bowling alley you got a choice to make you know you could probably get a strike without the bumpers but with the bumpers up it's just a more of a relaxed way of working

you are more assured in your approach when I work as an actor I keep bumpers up yeah that's because because why the fuck not you know if I if I can I want to win you know I want to I want to express my truth

and that's a win And in order to get there, if it's bumpers up, it's bumpers up. And sometimes it makes you go in the corner or you do whatever the fuck they ask you to do because you don't want to fail. Have you talked about this kind of stuff with Gary? I mean, you share a bunch of scenes in Man Down. For sure. One-on-one scenes.

He's Rada, though. This is what I mean. He's Rada. He's a different school, man. He was wild in the day. Completely wild. But this was, again, that's his version of bucking his tradition. He comes from Sidney Pottier and Lawrence, you know, a different kind of school of acting is what he was coming out of.

And his response to it, his way of bucking tradition and creating freedom for himself meant that he was a guy from Rada who would get in a car with John Hurt and drive through the plate glass window of an Italian restaurant and get out, order pizza. That was a different temperature in the business. And since as the business has changed, so has the traditions. And so the way that I've lived my life at points has been really haphazardly. It's not all decided. Like, I didn't decide to get arrested. You know, these are things that I have to respond to as a creative and as a person. But there are things that you do decide on that inform the way that you respond to the world, respond to interviews, and make your choices that for me are about bucking traditions that I was presented with.

I mean, some of the things we're talking about, like, you know, bring to mind the question of like, do you have to. do you have to necessarily suffer for your art? Like, isn't there an easier path where you can be happy and satisfied and not damage yourself physically or mentally? This is what I mean. I think when I was first coming up, before I had really got,

even when I first met Hardy, I had this talent, this modernist method actor, old school, antiquated way of looking at, and if you look at the modernist movement, it's all about martyrdom. You know, Pollock was all about beating himself down for it you know and then you felt like he earned the right for your attention

and this is an old school thing but in acting that tradition stayed on much longer much much longer the method actor thing is really really antiquated but it still has some kind of like sexy appeals and that and so my thing is like i have an eye towards that and a respect for it but i also know it's not real that is bullshit so i i have to do both i'm rational and i'm also romance I'm both. I'm wearing both hats. I'm the fakesest method actor you ever met. And for me, it works. When you started to kind of like go down this path, sounds like around Lawless is when you kind of like double down. I'm kind of like, you know, I'm going to try some different shit now and see what sticks. The people around you, what did they say? I mean, were they worried for you? I mean, I'll be honest. Melissa, your publicist is laughing in the corner. I mean, I was worried for you, man. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know. Because it's the first time I was saying hello. This is what I mean. To get to.

It takes patience to get to the 50th hello where that hello means something different. But when you say it the first time, people are like, yo, what, though? I would say the first five times it was where. For sure, for sure. And again, some of this is interspersed with getting arrested. Some of it is conscious choices on projects. And some of it is also unconscious fuck-ups. Yeah, legit problems you all have.

Yeah. And so, you know, in being fallible and in trying to deal with my human and it also being like a conscious person with an eye towards legacy and pride and a litmus for my creativity. I'm juggling both. And the people around me, you know, looked at me in a very specific regard,

especially like not Melissa per se, but I got a manager in my life who's like a father, a guy named Crosby, who's 50s Rockwell America. And to get him to get into some of this avant-garde philosophy was really tough. But the only way you can,

can get somebody to get into it is when they start seeing the benefits. Once you present benefits, it's really hard to fight a benefit. That being said, have you lost friends acquaintances over the last four or five years because of this stuff? No, man. It's actually been the total opposite. The people that I thought weren't my friends have come around and I've come around on them and my life is getting far less enemy oriented. Well, it does feel like, yes, as you said, like the first couple years And there were, you know, a bunch of things that were worrisome signs for those of us that, that loved your work and cared about you. You've come around to this place where you've, it seems like you're making it work. You obviously got married recently.

Congratulations on that. And, you know, and the fact that you're doing this amazing work, like American Honey, you know, I'm a huge fan of as well. And congratsy. You've got an indie spirit nomination the other day. Does it feel like, in a way you're like, guys, this is what I was trying to tell you. Like, there was a method to my madness. Like, every, every person, every creative feels like that. Yeah.

Yeah, you're not going to mean no creative who doesn't have that thing in and it's like, wait, but wait, but there's more. That's what a creative is. Right. Yeah. So, um, it's a completely irrational belief in oneself. That's what being an artist means. Yeah. You're listening to happy, sad, confused.

We'll be right back after this. So what's your appetite right now for, um, the studio? film for like what's your name mean you think to the studios right now what's your interest in going down that route you kind of have done your time you're clearly working with top independent cool filmmakers what do you need something from the big studios at this point do you feel all the independent people that I love don't shy away from a studio uh uh film maybe right you know what I'm saying and so I find myself in the same spot like to to shut off a whole thing based on a system is wrong because all systems, once they become systematized, become completely

dull. So even if you just stay on the side of, you know, indie filmmaking, European filmmaking, you know, avant-garde cinema, you're going to become systematized and become dull. It gets repetitive even in that way. Rogers, so like I stay open. I'm just trying to stay malleable, you know. Granted, I sort of put my foot in my ass in terms of, you know, dealing with the studio system on a certain level, but there's also a new generation entering the studio system that I have relationships with that don't think lowly of my work that might be interested in a meeting. And so, you know, I'm just trying to like stay the course, work on my good guy, and keep an eye towards doing good work. I mean, that's really the only thing that I can do. And that's what I'm

trying to do. Do you? Do you? Yes. Yeah, we love each other, man. If you ask Mike, you know, he might shit on me, but it'll be with a smile on his face. There's deep, deep love and understanding on both sides, I think. Well, you came of age with him, and I know that first film is still, like, close to your heart. He's a big brother, dude. He's a different generation, and he's a big brother, and I love him, regardless of if we have differing opinions on a lot.

You know what I mean? It's like, and we were just talking about that this is part of the issues. Like, I have a different opinion with a lot of people in this world, and that's part of what's creating this polarized thing is I think I was really anti- Michael Bay's sensibilities while I was with Bay, you know, which was. was tough for both of us, but I think not. He doesn't shy from an argument. No, heck no, man. He likes it. And in a way that kind of made Transformers one kind of what it was, was this we wrestled a little bit, you know, and, and I think we both became apathetic once we became

systematized. And, and then, and then we died a little bit. And then, you know, Mike has got a great, great film in him, and he, and has made great film in the past. I mean, for me, you know, it's not Citizen Kane, but the Rock is up there with me with Sandlot and all these Ninja Turtles and like the nostalgia and field of dreams and like the nostalgic dummy shit that I love. And that's just who I am, you know? And he's part of that. Still, he doesn't need to make six Transformers movies.

No, but I think he's trying to find him so. Because as you said, he is so talented and you want to see him kind of try different things. And I think Mike is of a generation that believes he is a machine. He's exploring something. I mean, it might be hard to see it. It might have the subtlety of an Alice Cooper.

But he is trying to find something. And it's, it might take six films, you know. Maybe it is. just money but it has to be more than that and i know mike so i i know it is more than that and and i know at face value it looks like he's just it's just a he's just getting cash right cash grab but he's actually trying to walk away respectfully and he hasn't made the movie he wants to make yet and i think that's admirable i think there's something really admirable about a dude who's still trying and mike is for sure doing that there's nothing dead about mike

that way yeah has he has he tried to entice you to come back for a cameo in the last couple films yeah not tempting well we just haven't found the right thing you know i'm not opposed to nothing and i still love mike and i still love a lot of that crew was my favorite that's my family i grew up on that set so i know that film crew more than i even know mike and i talked to all of them and you know i got mad love for those people so uh not not to bring up a film that i know can be a sore point for some but but indiana jones how do you look back on that because my my perspective on that one at this point is there are a lot of problems that were bigger than mutt with that film and i'm saying that you're not saying that okay but like in some ways you became the scapegoat for that film and i kind of

feel badly for you in that way um i think it also shaped who i became though you know i and so in that way i'm grateful yeah yeah because you know you've obviously said something so that stephen you probably maybe felt yeah i was quite emotional i was you know i was in pain and and and and i said some irrational shit that you know you you know that that i probably take back for sure uh but but um you know i'm i'm fallible i'm growing and i'm trying to stay the course and part of that is you know keep keep that dude's name out my mouth unless it's in a respectful way you know but i wasn't i was feeling some sort of way man yeah and i and i and i did feel like you know nobody stuck up for me and that shit didn't feel good because you know me and him had a relationship past the business part

you know but you know hats off to the dude man he's a fucking legend yeah i'm the proof of in the resume. I mean, less likely at this point that mutt will be popping up in the next indie film? Probably not. Could you imagine the response? I don't know. Oh, man, I couldn't. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. So, okay, let's backtrack for a little bit since we do have some time. So growing up, you've talked before, like, what, like, who were the guys? It was like, Segal. Yeah, he was like. What was your Segal movie of choice? What was it? Like, were you a hard to kill guy out for justice? What's the one with

the pool stick? I just remember. me and my dad with the pool. I just remember the pool stick fight. That was a... They all blend together. That's the problem for me. It's the thing. It's one of the movies. I remember just going to drive-through and there was a year where he had like two or three movies come out. Me and my dad just watched every Segal movie at the drive-in. That was our thing. That's how I got to know my dad was

watching him stupid movies, you know? Remember met Stephen Segal? Uh, wait, Carol Burnett, Steven Seagall? Carol Burnett worked with Steven Seagall? Is that what you just said? Have you ever met? Oh, because that would be an acid trip, bro. What the fuck? A Carol Burnett's Have you ever seen the Carol Burnett Steve Segal joint? That's fucking crazyness, bro. Underseeds

three the Carol Burnett Wow I interviewed him at a Best Buy once Did you? Yeah I swear to God He was promoting no no he wasn't buying He was he was on the payroll He was promoting the geek squad

The guys that would like fix your computers Oh no shit Oh bro he yeah see choices One day I'm interviewing At a Best Buy man don't do it Promoting chainsaws or something like hey Josh Good to see you again pal These are the greatest

chainsaws, dude. You should get yourself one of these chainsaws. So when, so when you had an opportunity thanks to one of your cool projects to watch literally all of the films back to back to back, which ones brought a smile to your face? Oh, even Stevens, you know, all the nostalgic ones, the ones that aren't about criticality, the ones that are just straight up stupid fun, you know? And then, you know, for me, manned down, because it's always your last one, you know? So, yeah, I think two different, total, a bunch of different experiences, but by the time we got to the third day of that we were all delusional in that room the room had a totally different vibe to it the smell was different you have dudes taking drugs in line coming in stumbling in after three days a party

to come watch the even stevens movie and then after the even stevens movie you get to like breakfast with einstein which we couldn't even find an english cut of so you got you got this russian breakfast with einstein that's in subtitles which is me and this dog who talks movie and you can't understand none of it because it's in russian and three-fourths of the crowd are shrooming out and people haven't slept and it's just a complete it was completely completely beautiful man you're like mission accomplished this is what we were going for it was man it was brilliant it became like completely about the the connection that had nothing to do with criticality or it being my films even it became a contrition thing amongst the room we were all

eaten from the same pizza that had gotten ordered from us online that's not a metaphor literally the same pizza yeah exactly that's the show bro we were eating from the same pizza and these are a bunch of strangers who i didn't know i didn't know if they liked me or hated me or nothing well and you say the word that I think all of these projects is about right connection that's what you're trying to do and it's interesting in a way like you know when I look at quote unquote celebrity a lot of it is about kind of like cutting yourself off as much as possible and you're kind of going in the other direction you're almost like more accessible than any other like quote quote quote public figure I can think of yeah it's serving will drive you around and do whatever the hell they want with you well not at

whatever the hell there's rules but for sure I the work that I'm doing it requires trust in a different way. Yeah. Are you getting different stuff out of these kind of experiences with your partners on these projects? Yes. What do you get out of it? Satisfaction, fulfillment. You know, we're explorers. We're like door the explorers and we're not pitching

answers. We're pitching questions and the, you know, and when they throw answers it's quite profound. You know, some of the most profound stuff I've been involved in has been stuff that we haven't orchestrated and it's it's helping my relationship with people and that's helping my relationship with myself.

So it's really quite healthy and instructive to my life. Does it bother you when some make a joke out of something? No, I think it's part of it. That's what I mean. It's like what I'm talking about wearing both hats about, you know, futurist, nostalgia, sincerity irony. You've got to have the ironic part. Otherwise, the sincerity feels false.

You know, you need to have one guy on the room saying, holy shit, this is really profound. And you need the other dude on the other room. He's like, just do it. You need both. I was going to say it. You need both. To make it to make it feel like.

I'm after a different kind of sincerity. I'm not after, there is a new sincerity that I think we're touching on, which I think cradles both evenly. Because I was going to say, like when you're doing the Just Do It kind of thing, you've got to know in the back of your mind, this is going to be appropriated in, like,

and that's part of the idea. I'm Simpsons first and foremost. I'm Nirvana. I'm Metallica. I'm first and foremost that. It's what I was raised in. And in order, I think, to get to true sincerity, real truth, you have to go the route of irony to get there. And that's all we're doing. We're using irony as a route towards sincerity, towards empathy, towards connection. But if I started with

the sincere connection bit, it'd be some other Teresa charity thing that would come off completely insincere. When I'm out here saving the whales and I'm actor number one and I'm trying to save the world and then I'm flying on my private, if I'm trying to, I'm pitching you, let's stop using gas and then I'm on my private jet promoting that then what you know I just think there's you have to account for the other side yeah and otherwise you're modernist and you're antiquated and you're lying in this new world or maybe it's not a new world but it feels like a new world the last couple weeks does this change your perspective on the kind of like art you want to do or the kind of things you want to pursue in terms of no I think it's right in line with what I was what you know I think

my I think it's right in line with what we saw coming he is the definition of metamodernism you know He is now, if you look at the way he deals with truth, it's very, he's post-truth. It's post-truth. We are in post-truth. And, you know, he is the same thing that created ISIS, is the same thing that created BoJack Horseman. He is the same sensibility that this is what we're living in, you know? So, let's talk a little bit about the art again for a second. So, like, who in, are you dying to work with certain filmmakers right now? Yeah, for sure. Who's on your list? Oh, man, I like what the Safdi's do. The Safdi brothers make cool stuff. I mean, you know, then of course, like, you know, there's Paul Thomas Anderson's, there's Nick Reffins, there's...

Yeah. Yeah. Did you see Neon Demon? I really liked Neon Demon. Yeah, I can't fault the guy. I look up to him. Yeah. So, and in terms of, you obviously have drafted some shorts and stuff, some of which, you know, go back to some of the issues we talked about earlier.

But does that kind of experience, the plagiarism kind of episode, make you shy away from going back to directing? I think directing being the last dictatorial. antiquated I think position on a film set I have no interest in it I think when I was making movies I was trying to explore myself and I couldn't do that as an actor in a way that I wanted to that was so specific to my sensibilities so I wanted to be a director because then I thought I had more control

but that is also not my route I found my forum and my vehicle and what I got going on now feels really good did you know you were going to get caught when you did that I think, um, I, no, for sure. For sure not. Really? No way, man. No way. No way. No. I, I, I took, I straight up took the idea, made the short film, went to can with it and then tried to be like covert about it. Yeah. And tried to be like a little sneaky guy, like a, you know, and got taxed for it. And rightfully so, you know, you, you learn your lessons in life. I was also coming out of this postmodernist, like, fuck originality thing. I'm from Napster, you know. That's where I was coming from. And, you know,

that's not quite all the way on the button either. So, you know, a lot of the mistakes that I'm made in public are just, you know, I think where the feeling is naturally confused and we're fine in our way. And I'm fine in my way, more specifically. And consuming much in the way of TV at this point to you, how do you unplug? How do you kind of like turn the brain off or do you feel like your brain's always going a thousand miles? Yeah, not always, no.

Sometimes I'll play SimCity or just some stupid narcissist game, you know. I quite like SimCity because I'm a narcissist It's nice You're owning up to it at least Yeah, it's cool But Not too much TV

No, I ain't been watching a lot of TV Last blockbuster That did anything for you? I saw suicide squad last night Yeah? Yeah David tried to get you in that one I hear

Well, we talk, you know I don't think he was desperately trying to get me in And he had way bigger fish to fry It was a big ass movie But you know I kind of like what he did You know, I mean, comparatively speaking, I think, you know, he did get to some cool stuff in there.

It's not the best movie ever made, but it's not the worst. I think there's some cool performances in there. I think what Jai did is fucking fun. I love Jai. He's great in that movie, dude. He's like some kind of weird Eric Bonna chopper shit that I love. And I was way into it. So, you know, there's some surprises there.

I thought, you know, Margot was bomb as fuck. There's some cool stuff in that movie, dude. Jai doesn't get enough credit, I think. He really doesn't, bro. I think he's great in this film of yours. He is good in this. He's really good in this movie. And he's a fucking hysterical great guy.

He's been on the podcast. I love that guy. Yeah, me too, man. I've been telling people for, like, years, like this guy. And I'm really excited he's doing a wet, hot American summer. Yeah. So, I mean, like, I think that's an opportunity for him. I think that dude really, really cares.

People got to watch that dude. He really cares, bro. Totally. Yeah. As do you. We'll get that segue. I'm a professional. Hey.

Hey. No freestyle here, but we covered a lot of, though. Oh, yeah, right. It's been way too long. Hopefully it won't be that long until the next time we get together. Roger. Congratulations on both American Honey. If people haven't checked that out, please do.

It's one of my favorites of the year. And Man Down is an exceptional piece of work. Thank you, always. You give 150% and I always appreciate that. Thank you, Josh. Good to see you, bud. Thank you for having me. Until next time.

And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. This episode of Happy, Sad, Confuse was produced by Michael Catano, James T. Green, Mukda Mohan, and Kashamahilovich for the MTV Podcast Network, with additional engineering by Little Everywhere. You can subscribe to this and all of our other shows on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, Spotify,

or wherever else you find your favorite podcasts. One night, one goal, stop suicide. On June 3rd, Washington, D.C. will host the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention's Out of the Darkness Overnight Walk. For the last 20 years, people have described the overnight as one of the most powerful experiences of their lives. Now is the perfect time for you to join us, as people from all over the country come together to send a message of love and hope.

Walk over 16 miles from dust till dawn to raise funds and awareness for suicide prevention. See the landmarks of Washington, D.C. by moonlight, form lasting friendships, experience healing, and bring hope to those affected by suicide. Join us. Be a part of something extraordinary. June 3rd in Washington, D.C. Register today at theovernight.org or call 888 The Overnight.org or 888. 843-6837. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that. Dude, too, is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about

good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, must-season, and case you miss them. We're talking Parasite the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to hit the follow button.