Happy Sad Confused - STRANGER THINGS finale Spoiler Special w/Matt & Ross Duffer

Episode Date: January 4, 2026

SPOILER WARNING: In their first and thus far only post STRANGER THINGS spoiler chat, Matt and Ross Duffer return to Happy Sad Confused to answer ALL the big questions! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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they used to, you need to see this. Watch Catherine Heigle's free video now at hscpet.com. That's hsc pet.com. Your dog's health will thank you. What are you going to say to folks about 11's fate, whether it's whether she lived or not? I'll tell them to listen to this podcast and we'll give our answer. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now. Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show,

it's a Stranger Things. Spoiler, Spectacular with Matt and Ross. duffer. Here we go, guys. A very special edition of Happy Say I Confused. I know I say that a lot, but come on. How often does a show, a phenomenon, like Stranger Things end? And this kind of opportunity come around where we can really do a deep dive. I know you folks love the spoiler specials, whether we've done them for Superman, the last season of Stranger Things, et cetera. And this one definitely lives up to the hype because Matt and Ross really spilled a lot

on character endings, reasons for what they did, the ideas they entertained, that they didn't pursue, the future, the spinoff, there's a lot here. If you're a Stranger Things fan, this one is going to be a special one for you. Before we get to that, a couple quick reminders. Remember, patreon.com slash happy, say I'm confused. That's your place for all early access bonus materials, discount codes, patreon.com slash happy, say I confused.

We have two new New York events kicking off the year. January 6th in New York City. Tom Hiddleston, 92nd Street, why? Be there. He's always a gem. And then January 7th, Jennifer Lawrence, first-time guest on the podcast. I've done a lot with Jennifer over the years. She's one of the best interviews out there.

I have very high hopes. This will be a very memorable episode of Happy Sank Confused. I have the utmost confidence in that. Tickets are going fast for both of these. Link is in the show notes. you know what to do. Okay, not much more preamble. By the way, if you're watching this on video, my internet is like so spotty. I'm like out of sync. I apologize. I don't know what's going on. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Ross and Matt Duffer. They came out of nowhere. Nobody knew who

they were a decade ago and now they are at the top of the heap riding high off of the end of Stranger Things, very well received by critics and audiences alike. I certainly loved the finale. And this is a full-on deep dive exit interview, spoiler special, whatever you want to call it. So last warning, make sure you've seen Stranger Things 5. Make sure you've seen the finale because there's a lot here to unpack. Without any further ado, here's Ross Duffer, here's Matt Duffer talking the end of Stranger Things. Enjoy. All right, Matt.

All right, Ross. You guys ready for this? This is what it's all about. Yeah, let's do it, man. Let's go. Here we go, guys. Stranger Things 5. Mission accomplished. Congratulations, guys. This has been a long, long road to say the least. And this is the exit interview. You're ready to let it all hang out? Yeah, man, let's do it. Let's, we're ready. We're not going to give you an answer, though, as we'll ever be.

To 11, though, we're not going to give you an answer there. But otherwise, we'll do our best. Don't start from a negative place. I've got 45 minutes to wear you down. By the end, it's going to be like a waterboarding. You're going to spill it all. I was saying to Ross before, like, I was listening back to our last conversation, not our last, but the spoiler conversation we did after Stranger Things 4. And it really struck me, like, everything you guys said, you, you did. I mean, you talked about, you know, coming back to original groupings, you talked about potentially doing the finale in theaters. You talked about a long kind of epilogue or a Turn of the King-esque structure. So, I mean, it does feel like you kept the plan. Is that safe to say that, like, there weren't major swings? Roughly.

Yeah, roughly. I mean, we had, because, you know, if you remember, I mean, season four was in the midst of COVID. So we had a massive, massive break where we, and we actually had time. We had finished writing season four. And we started to work on season five. So we had an outline for it. It changed radically the outline because after season four came out, we looked back at the outline and we thought a lot could be different and improved.

Holly was not in that outline, for instance. But the rough shape of it, especially the ending, was all laid out. It's interesting. I was looking back, I was thinking back to Return of the King. Return the King's epilogue is about 28, 30 minutes. You out, returned of the King, return of the King, return of the King. Return of the King.

Congratulations. I who did not know that. I didn't know that, no. Hey, but, you know, if you think about it, we're longer, quite a bit longer than the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Because what are you, 40, 50 hours and even with the extended, they're 10? Yeah. What are they with 10?

The extended. Yeah. Something like that. 10.11. Yeah, yeah. But if you did strike me in watching the finale, it's an excellent finale. First of all, get that out of the way. Like, you really, you guys really nailed.

it and I'm not alone in saying that. But structurally, it is a very interesting finale because, you know, the action, I haven't looked at literally the time code, but the action kind of ends like, what, 75, 80 minutes in, and then it is really a long kind of like return to roots, no supernatural, just like really marinating in the characters. And it's so satisfying for an audience. But talk to me a little bit about, like, did you have any conflict, any inner, I don't know, worry about the structure of that last episode?

Or was it sort of like, this is just what it, what it demands, what we've, what we've built how it has to end? No, it was always the intention to have that, you know, long of an epilogue, I think, you know, because ultimately at the end of the day, this is, despite all the supernatural goings on, it is a coming of age story. We obviously also have a lot of characters and we wanted to spend time with them. So we were very, in even outlining and building the season, we were very caulked. to give ourselves the space to do that.

And it's structured very differently for that reason than season four. That's why all the planning to build up and all that's in seven. So we can just start at a full sprint, which is different than we've done on any other finale. And the reason we wanted to do that is to give ourselves the space to have, spend that much time with their characters on the other side of this without having it be a

you know, a three or four hour, the gargantuan finale. We wanted to try to keep it around two hours. Before we get into the 11 of it all, which is a big part of the conversation, I mean, you guys know, like, there has been this obsession. It's not unique to stranger things, but like at the end of every show, it's like, who's going to make it, who's going to die, the whole thing? And there was, even some of your cast members at some points were talking, like, people got to go down, et cetera.

Did any, here's my question. Did any of the actors actually come to you and say, you know what? I'd be cool with offing me in the final season, final episode. Um, I don't remember Ross, do you? I don't, I don't, I don't think so. No. I don't think so, no. Uh, no, no one was like, no one did a Harrison for, uh, return of the, uh, like, just kid, just kill me. No, um, no, because I think they, they, they, they love the. characters too and they feel passionate about them. So I don't, I don't think a single one came

up to us and said, uh, didn't kill me. You, you, you, you have said, look, this is, this is not Westeros. This is Hawkins. So it didn't demand that kind of like bloodletting at the end. But you also have said, you know, in the writer's room, all bets are off you. Everything's discussed. Everything's on the table. Yeah. I mean, why wouldn't you? I mean, by the, I mean, the writer's room, you go over. I mean, it's not just character deaths. I mean, you explore everything because why wouldn't you? It's like as much as possible. You want to explore every possible avenue in terms of where the season and the show could go. And you try to land on what, you know, what feels right. I mean, like the percentage of time spent on talking about death and death of characters is really small, you know, because that's

not, you know, that's not what the show has ever been about. You know, it's an adventure, an adventure coming of age story. We could have definitely killed some people. It's just, God, it's just not, not, not, not, we, we wanted you. And, you know, it's not, to me, what the show is or what the show is about. So there wasn't like, to follow that. Yeah, go ahead. No, got Ross. I was saying, you have to follow, like, you follow through, so you run it through.

And if you, and you do that, and you go to the end, and you see how it affects the narrative and the story and the themes of that story. And generally, when we did it, you know, it, it sort of dismantled. the whole thematic structure of Stranger Things. And I think when we were looking at various, you know, the finalities of long-running shows that landed the plane, the ones that did it the best really just stayed true to what they were. And so whatever the noise is or, you know, bloodlust, like you have to,

at the end of the day, you have to go, no, let's just, we need to be true to what, what Stranger Things is and always, was from season one on. I don't want to feel like you to feel like I'm obsessed with death but like there's not like a 48 hour period where you guys fell in love with one idea of one death

that felt like no, let's at least go down this road seriously, really? Yeah. No, we didn't through, literally you go through every character and you talk about it. We definitely did that. We did that exercise and once you go through that, you realize

that, um, It was wrong for the show and the story of these characters and this coming of age story that ultimately we're telling. The Steve of it all took on a life of its own over the years. I don't even know where that came from. Yeah. But we must have been playing with the expectations by the end, no? I mean, like that moment. Oh, yeah, I don't know.

Like, first of all, Ross and I, you know, we did run and were always. tried to build towards a, you know, a makeup between, and bromance, a little bit of a bromance between Steve and Jonathan. And then that led to the idea of him saving Steve. But yes, I'm sure there was a part of us going, well, you know, this is going to really mess with people who are. And then you see that moment in theaters with a crowd. And it was fucking incredible.

in the reveal when it's Jonathan. I mean, the crowd went nuts. It is fun. But yes, ultimately, it gave us a fun moment, but it also allowed us to sort of, those were the two characters moving into the finale. I mean, outside of like 11 and Hopper, which is more complex.

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about it. Like, you were going to be asked, what's real, what's not? Is Mike's story true? Are you prepared to be accosted at Starbucks day to day? And what are you going to say to folks about 11's fate, whether it's whether she lived or not? I'll tell them to listen to this podcast and we'll give our answer. No, I mean, obviously we left at AMB. ambiguous for, you know, for a reason. I mean, we want the audience to be in the shoes that Mike and the whole group are in, which is it's up to you to choose whether to believe or not, right? I mean, there's evidence that could point in both directions.

So that, you know, that's the, that's the intent of the scene. And I can also get into, you know, You know, there's a couple of things. You know, you can talk about it thematically that there was almost, there's this element of 11 representing sort of the more fantastical elements of the show. I mean, she's, you know, super coward, you know, the upside down, the monsters. Like, if she existed, she would, you know, with them, she would still be part of, like, that, the fantasy and the magic and the would still be a part of their lives. And to us, you know, in a way that represents childhood and imagination and wonder. And that is leaving with them as they transition from young adults to adulthood and closing the door on that part of their lives.

So we like that from a thematic point of view. And as far as 11 and the character of 11, we want, you know, that was really the initial conversation that we were having. is, you know, from a realistic standpoint, how does she continue to exist in the world? And we had that debate and have characters having that debate throughout the season. It's like, what could that look like?

Is a happy ending possible? Like a fully happy ending where she's like married to Mike and they're living a perfectly happy life and the government has completely laid off them and they've ended their lab and their experiment. And we just couldn't figure out a way for that to work. We love 11 so much.

So we have, but then there's Hopper's point of view, right, which is also extremely valid. So we had Collie representing the point of view I just talked about, and then we had Hopper representing, you know, the other point of view, which is also very valid. And I guess the question was, is there an in-between for her? And that's what Mike lands on at the end.

And his answer is yes, and that's what she chose. And whether the audience that believes that or not is up to them, and we like leaving it up to them. I like to think that after having seen, I don't know if you've seen Wicked for Good, she's in the same place that Alphabet is at the end of Wicked for Good. Someone told me that, yeah, Sean was telling me that.

And I haven't seen, I know, I've never seen, I saw Wicked, I haven't seen Wicked for Good and I never saw the musical. So I did not know that. But that's cool. Hey, great minds. So who knows? It's definitively. You guys have definitive answers in your head about what's, what her actually is.

So you too know. I don't know what the answer is. This is ambiguous. I mean, you're writing from a point of view of understanding what the truth is, right? And the reality is. But it's just, so, so, yeah, Ross and I know. And we were just talking to Millie about it. But I don't, you know, it's just, I think it takes away the power of the ending.

if you tell people what, um, what you were thinking is you were writing that. So what, so Millie, Millie knows definitively too. Does she have a take? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, literally I, I, we were texting with her 30 minutes ago. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. I was going to say, he was not going to tell you. She's not going to tell you either if you want to try to get. Yeah. Don't waste your time. Is, does no one know he's my, he's, he's the best bet at this point, obviously. Oh, that is Dan, I got to tell, no, no, no, Millie swore herself to secrecy. You better watch that. I was going to say, Millie and No are very close.

So that's, thank you for Romanians, Josh. We were going to tell her to, to, to, I'm not even joking. I'm literally going to text for right now. I was going to say, I was going to say, is there anybody we want to get on the line to loop in here? I was talking to Joe the other day. He was like, I went in on the post-mortem. Should we get somebody on the phone? If the proper question comes up, we will.

Okay, fair enough. I literally do not tell Noah. That's amazing. So the redemption or near redemption of Henry, of Vecna, how close did we come to a full-on Darth Vader redemption arc for him? Can someone that's done so much really be redeemed? Did you explore that in the writer's room? Yeah, we initially talked about giving him a moment where he can turn against the

mind flair and help them defeat it. And I think ultimately, again, as you start to play that out, it feels wrong. And we, we didn't believe it. He is so far gone at this point. He's done so much evil that for him to turn around, even if there is part of him inside, deep inside that is innocent, that innocent child, I, you know, I think it's just, it's been buried beneath sort of much violence and anger over the years. And in terms of ambiguity, we did want to leave it up a little bit to the audience, too, in terms of Henry, of course, is saying he is in control as well as the mind player, how much of that, you know, we leave up to the audience.

But I think you see a lot of it play out in Jamie's face in that final scene in the Mineshaft. He's just incredible at conveying all of these different emotions and layers. You've, you've, since the finale has run, you've kind of hinted, more than hinted, you've said that the connective tissue to this spinoff that you're developing is in this backstory, is in this scene, this kind of origin story for Henry. So can you, what are you willing to say about what we see in that sequence with this mysterious? Is it the same suitcase at the end of Pulp Fiction? I don't know if it's the same stuff in there. If it was the same, we'd have a stronger glow of a face for the same question.

It was the same. Wait, sorry, I have an update from Millie. I said, don't tell Noah. She said, of course not. She knows better. She knows. She knows. We all know, we all know and love Noah, but we do not trust him.

Right. With secrets related to the show. So that, you know, I mean, there are a couple, obviously there's some things that we don't fully answer in the show. I mean, the briefcase and the rock and the scientists and all that being a big part. So that, you know, that's the one, you know, we had talked about there's something in there that is going to hint it with a spinoff was. I didn't want to have to talk about it, but I got pinned down so hard that we're just talking about it. But anyway, that's, that's the part that we will dive into in the spinoff.

Although, and I just want to emphasize because I just don't want people's expectations to be incorrect, which is that it's not, you know, a spinoff about, you know, exactly focused on the origin of the rock or focused on the origin of the Maya Flair. There are explanations, but it really is its own story with this own mythology.

Yes. In terms of the spinoff, We know very little beyond what you just said, but like, is it, is it another ensemble? Is it a young cast? Can you say anything like that? Yeah, it's going to be an ensemble again. I think ultimately it is its own story in new characters of mythology, but a lot of the the style of storytelling that we've done for 10 years now and Stranger Things will, that

is something that will carry over, even though it is. you know, completely new, new story. Do you imagine you'll direct any episodes? You're not show running it, right? You're not show running it, exactly. So we're co-creating it. I can't talk too much more about it, Josh, because I'm going to get in trouble.

Okay. So I think all this stuff is going to get announced. There's a lot of exciting things I wish I could talk about. But, and, you know, it's just still in early stages. And hopefully at some point, more of this will be announced. Fair enough. But we're going to be, you know, we'll be heavily involved, even if we're not, you know,

we're not going to be show running and directing we'll see. But I think ultimately, you know, we're going to be there from beginning to end of the process. Okay. So let's talk a little bit more about some of the fates of your other characters. I love what you've talked about like that you really, you involve the actors. You wanted them to feel like, you know, some ownership, some skin in the game. They have a lot of skin in the game. They've created these characters alongside you.

Who had the strongest POV? Who really impacted most, you think, where each of these characters ended up in the end? I don't, God, who impacted the most where they ended up? I mean, obviously over the year, it's just working with these, whether it's Joe Kiri and where Steve ended up, obviously, shaped it. I mean, I think they all did. Noah with Will, Finn, with Mike.

I mean, everyone did to a certain extent. But I think there was a level of trust and understanding as we went in this final season. And we certainly talked to everyone. And we definitely talked to everyone, you know, as we were working on the finale, writing it amidst production, as we typically do, unless there's a pandemic. And just figuring out where people saw their characters ending up. at the end of this so in terms of the you know the colleges they went to the flash forwards all of that was those were based on conversations that we had with all

the actors because obviously these characters mean so much to Matt and I but it means they mean just as much to these actors so we wanted to make sure that everyone felt like we they were ending up in the in the right place did anyone make a pitch that just didn't work that was fun but just didn't work in the game of things um well i think brett wanted murray to be like a private eye in chicago that didn't make it in but i maybe he is i think that's pretty well i mean that that would be a coda thing that we just didn't you know we didn't include finn really wanted a gun and we compromised by giving him a flare gun um and i i i don't you know beyond that i i can't i

you know, I can't think of it. I mean, obviously, this would all been like two years ago. Right. Anything. Didn't Maya want to die, Ross? That's the only one I'm trying to think. Or am I making that up? I don't know.

I think you're making that up. I don't know why he would make it up. Seems like a strange thing to make up. Because, Josh, man, I just, there was so much. This, my head is in a, like, I really shouldn't have done any of these post-mortem interviews. I'm not in a good place. Like, why the hell? hell we did any why the hell we did any of them yesterday is beyond me that's the best time to talk to you

when you're totally fried i'm like fried i was like yeah i'm getting over the flu you know so anyone mad at any answers we have yesterday just give me a break caught me some black no never uh that's not how the internet works you know that no joyce and hopper it was always meant to be it was always going to work out right there was that that's that was no that was yeah they were going to go to Enzo's, they were going to, it was, there was going to be, yeah, there was always going to be a proposal, so forth. The idea of the relocation, doing a callback to Montauk, you know, if people don't know, the show was originally set in Montauk, so it was just a little not in a wing for people who are super familiar with the show and its origins. That was new, but otherwise that was, that was

in place for a very long time, as it was a scene of the kids playing D&D in the basement. One thing I think you've talked about before, but since now this is kind of, we're looking all the way back. And David said this to me before. Like, he's like, I know for a fact I was not the first choice for Hopper. I don't know, like, if you, how close you came, but, you know, it's been said that, like, you and McGregor and Rockwell were on your list. Like, did you come actually close to casting other of those guys for Hopper back in the day? Um, man. I mean, yeah.

I mean, we, we, we did, we did go out to certain people. You have to remember, though, at the time, true detective hadn't even come out yet. And so the idea of movie stars committing to a seven-year television run was really rare. So it's happening more now. But even now, they tend to just commit to the limited series. So the big coup was, you know, the big thing we landed, the person we landed was Winona. And that was hard. You know, I mean, Winona was, because she grew up in an era where that was not something that you did as a movie star.

Yeah. And I think it was a really hard decision for her to make. But she loved the character. She just learned last year what a streaming service is. It took her a few. Exactly. Exactly. So, so that was a major, that was a major gift for us.

I do, I don't remember you and McGregor. I do remember going out to Sam, Sam Rockwell. I love, well, I love him and maybe we'll get to work together in the future. But I just, I do think it's like Indiana Jones and like Tom Selleck turning down, you know, Indiana or whatever. Or, you know, Michael J. Fox being whatever, third choice for back to the future. Like, it just, this stuff works out. I mean, can you imagine it without David? Like, I'm so relieved these actors as incredible as they are passed on it, you know, I'm so relieved.

I do, I do, speaking of Winona, the, um, that you fucked with the wrong family moment. Right. Is it, is delicious. Is it what did she enjoy with that moment, but she found out she was getting that? She finally got to use that axe. Yeah, she came righty. I mean, I, I think that's the first, the, her line rating is take one, I believe. I mean, she just came, like, ready to chop this head off.

She was just dialed in when we finally got to that moment. It was very, very satisfying. You talked a little bit about the final scene in the basement, but I do want to hear it straight from you guys because this is the idea that's been around for a long, long time. Not necessarily the passing of the baton to the next generation, but literally closing the door on that D&D game. Yes, does a lot of that scene honor what you guys thought of,

eight plus years ago. Yeah, that was the idea. That was the idea. The final D&D game and then, yeah, ultimately letting go and saying by to their childhood and shutting that door, that's been that, yeah, that's been in there and planned since we realized that the show was going to go on for more than one season. That's always been the plan. And one of the more emotional days in the course of the series has to be shooting that, yes?

That was, yeah, it was definitely the most emotional day. In the last shot that we ever did is them putting their D&D, it was like behind the shelf and they're each putting one by one putting their books away. And I think just knowing that it was the last shot, knowing that what that meant both for the actors and the characters was, yeah, everyone, everyone was crying. Did they get their D&D books? they get the individual books?

Is that part of the goodbye package? Oh, man, I don't, I don't think they did get those books. Did they, Ross? I don't know. We gave everyone sort of like a key prop that was specific to each of their characters. Like Joe got the bat, Winona got the axe, Millie got her original dress from season one. So we sort of picked like a key prop or comment. costume and framed it and gave it to each of the actors.

But I don't know what happened to the books. That's a really good question. I remember, Ross, did we end up actually being able to give Nat the gun? Because I know there was pushback on that because we were. I think we did. It's a rubber gun. I think we gave her the gun. It's a rubber gun to be clear.

It's not. Yeah, but no, there was a, oh, is that, was that the compromise? I think we wanted to give her the actual gun, but they only let us give her the rubber gun. I think. Everybody knows. Give out guns to all their young cast on the way out. Like, get a revolver.

Like, Nat accidentally shoots someone in her New York apartment and then sues Netflix. I don't know what the concern was. The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders, an army scattered like. bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time. And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules-light nightmare

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Listen to Turtle Time on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. As you look back at this season, the finale, was there a creative choice, a decision that that you were excited by, but also were worried whether the audience would be with you? Like, what felt like the biggest creative risk that you took in this? I mean, 11, you know, I mean, absolutely. I mean, and then, you know, for all the reasons we outlined, then, and mostly for, you know, the reason and, and, you know, some people are, I knew some people were going to be upset about and some people are upset about it, you know, because of what she went through. and it's

you know it is it is painful and I mean it's painful um for us but I say yeah but this notion that

you know if Mike's theory is true that she's not you know she's not happier and capable of living a happy life like she's going to sit in a dark hole crying

um you know it's not you know not accurate she's actually able would be able to live in peace where she's not being hunted. But the big thing to, she's sacrificing herself

to protect her friends and family and, you know, or found family, and also to protect what happened to her from happening to any other child in the future. It is. And I think Pito. Yeah. No, I was just going to say,

And we, you know, we obviously looked at a lot of endings to big stories and, you know, Lord of the Rings being a hugely important and influential one for us. And I remember reading that really young and, of course, seeing the movies in high school. And there is part, there was part of me at the time that there was a, there was some disappointment. Like, I wanted Frodoches to come back and just party and celebrate with his friends. And, you know, Return of the Jedi. you just in you cut to black and I'm just cheering and it's obviously much more complicated and bittersweet than that ultimately and that's the ending old that's that sticks with me all these

years later and I as I grow older I the more and more I respect it and I think you know sometimes yeah the best innings are there there sometimes can be something bittersweet about them and there can be some ambiguity and I think that's what we ultimately were wanted to do with the final scene of a stranger. I mean, we wanted, mostly it was about, you know, it's not about plot, it's about, or this was, this was our goal, what our focus was, which is capturing the feel, it's all about capturing a feeling, which is capturing the feeling of what it felt like to leave childhood and your childhood friends behind. and what it feels like to become an adult.

And what what leaves your life at that point in time? Like, what does that passage feel like? That was the focus of the finale, right? I mean, the focus of the finale is not mythology. The focus of the finale is emotion and feeling and just capturing and bottling what that felt like. It's sort of us grappling with, and perhaps, you know, sort of our nostalgia for childhood and just the sadness of leaving that behind, but also this feeling of happiness because

you can, you know, think back on it and you can tap back into it whenever you want. And also the joy of seeing a new generation of kids be able to experience it. Like having a kid of my own now and seeing them have those same experience, having that kind of boundless imagination, experiencing movies and actually fully believing what they're seeing as opposed to being jaded and analyzing camera angles, you know, and lighting and blocking.

You know, there's something just so beautiful and innocent about that time in your life. And it just, you can never recapture it. It's like a drug you try to, you know, it's just you try to get, that same high and you never can quite get there.

I think it's like why so many of us are where we are now in the entertainment business is just tried to pre-chaise and whatever that, yeah, yeah, you know, that we had when we were younger. And you do every once in a while. It's just, and it feels amazing. It's just so much harder, I think, to get now. And the internet, if anything, is making it even harder. Right, I think.

Well, as you trip back, all your knowledge, you know too much, there's too much cynicism, all these layers. And I do think, I do think, I mean, I was watching when I was watching the finale, I thought of like the comp, which has been there from the start of like L to E.T and like that emotional ending of like, like, E.T was a change agent for Elliot and a transitional point for Elliot. That's one of the most emotional, like, endings on anything. in the history of film. And I think that's maybe too bit of that in terms of my favorite last shot. It might be my favorite last shot of any movie. I mean, just unbelievable, which wasn't originally supposed to be the last shot, by the way. And it was Axon?

Norden, did Spielberg shoot that? I think he did. Yeah, he did. I think so. And I think that's what's interesting. It's like there is a much more definitive ending to ET where they're contacting him again. And I think, but it's so much more powerful to leave that open for audiences to tell that story themselves if they want to, but not to actually just, you know. And so we absolutely talked about that, obviously, as well as a Lord of the Rings.

I mean, those are two major references. Right. So, like, it's just, you know, just be super clear. And maybe I'm wrong. This is what I remember, I believe. And I don't know if you know, Josh or whatever, but like that it does go full. circle in ET. They're playing, they're playing, they're playing D&D again, just like the beginning and eating pizza and so forth. And then it goes up on the roof and you see Elliott's, you know,

put up some antenna to connect again with ET, right? So it ends on this very hopeful note. And so the equivalent of that would be Mike having, getting some sort of sign from L that maybe they'll be able to meet up again one day. And it's just, you know, E.T. to me, Spielberg made the exact right call to leave that up in the air and to close on that final shot of Elliott as E.T. leaves. It's just so much more on you, I think.

I could talk about E.T. and you guys, we're all day, but I would you want to ask some burning other questions that people have been brought up. Let me throw up at you. A lot of people want to know about who unlocked the door in season one, episode one. about the demigorgon in, definitively. Say now?

Yeah, I mean, that was, that's, that's, um, vacuumly using psionic, his psionic abilities through the demo. Was there ever a consideration of a Eddie cameo flashback anything in this final? No. No. No, because, I mean, what a performance Joe gave. Like, it's just going to. is just going to absolutely take away from it.

So it felt, you know, and also the whole story is about Dustin's stories about grieving Eddie. So the only moments of Eddie we see are flashbacks to things we've already seen. And that was always the plan. There was never any discussion in bringing Eddie back. Some relationship status questions. Oh, what happened to Robin and Vicky? Did it work out? Did it not work out?

I mean, it's definitely implied that it did not work out. Right. I know the way, like, but, you know, certain things are open to interpretation. And they're at least, they're having issues, you know, you know, Robin says the thing about overbearing significant others. So that's, you know, whether they're, whether it's rocky and or they're taking a break from each other or they broke it up. But by the way, like, when, how many couples do you know that, you know, were in high school that when they went to different colleges stay together?

It's like zero. Zero. So the odds are bad. The odds are. Max and Lucas, yeah, it's not zero because Max and Lucas, I believe. I know, but that is like a one in a million like. Oh, because that's the exception. True luck.

Lucas are going to make it. Max and, yeah. I mean, you see that, you know, I know it's Mike saying what's going to happen, but that is, you know, that is, that is, that is real. Their love is just too, too pure, too strong. And Hopper and Joyce, they're, they're solid. This is life partners now. It's going to work out. It's going to work out. I can't imagine. They're going to move to odd. I can't imagine it and not wring out. And Joyce is finally going to get out of Hawkins, for real. It's going to be, it's going to be. they finally get to Montauk where you're going to shoot the show 10 years ago

they never got to shoot that's right just couldn't afford it Nancy's not getting back together with Jonathan though that's probably not likely to happen I mean you don't know I mean they're they love each other right I mean you just even see that look between them on the roof

it's less about like they need time apart like Nancy needs time to find herself. Jonathan needs time to find himself. They're in different schools. It doesn't mean that they can't come back together. And we just, we, we don't know. And I don't, I don't want to answer definitively one way or the other. I mean, we don't know. We end the show before that happens. But they're, they're bonded for life and there's a deep love, you know, between each other. That's why I do, you know, love the breakup scene because it is a, it is a, it is a

break-up scene, but there's this deep love between them that's never going to go away. They truly, deeply love each other. So the question of, you know, could they reconnect and end up married? 100%. We just don't know. Or do they find other life partners and just remain the best friends? I don't know. I mean, those are two distinct possibilities.

I know you said there are no cutscenes, but you did say that, like, there's an extended version of that rooftop. Yeah, but it's mostly just them talking more about Jonathan's movie. It's nice. There's a 10-minute riff on Jonathan's movie. Yeah, we made up all that on the day with the teens, and we just had so much fun with it. We were fucking around. If there's ever going to be any sort of continuation with the characters, we were like,

let's just go make this stupid, shitty, you know, consumer movie with the teens, you know, shoot it on 16 millimeter. but I doubt that will ever happen. We don't lose something like $100,000 from Netflix or something. Some folks have spotted this callback to the Dark Crystal poster for the, for the abyss. That's an action. Yeah. It's not saying this stuff and start taking credit for it. Just take credit for it.

I agree. I agree. I know. I saw they pointed it out. I thought it was, I think it's awesome. Listen, I don't know. But Josh, I mean, truly, I don't know how much of this is subconscious. Right.

Right. I mean, because this stuff was all a big part of our childhood, as was Dark Crystal. So are you, like, kind of cribbing from it without even realizing it? I don't, I mean, maybe I don't, I really truly don't know. I mean, we obviously love Dark Crystal. We obviously were staring at that poster very recently. We just had it in the show. It's in Mike's room.

So it's not, it's not inconceivable. I'm just saying it wasn't something in the room where we said, let's make it look like the dark crystal because, you know, really it was, you know, what would the mind flare look like folded up? You know, that's where it came from and our concept artists worked that out. All right, I'm going to let you go.

And a couple more if you guys will indulge me. We know about the spinoff you guys are getting serious about. We know obviously about the play, which is exceptional. People should check it out. I've seen it a couple times. you've hinted at something else though you've hinted at is there another stranger things project

that is yet unannounced on the animated show we know about but is there something else cooking that we just don't know about yes yes but it's not I don't even know why you

huh I don't know why you tease this yeah there is there is something else so I don't want to be like there's nothing else when there is something else and it's super rad I'm talking about

it's not it's not what people are probably going to think it is. So I don't, is it a different medium? Are we talking video game or are we talking? No, it's not a video. I wish it was a video game. No, no, I'm not, I wish there was also a video game. Let me, let me rephrase.

We've tried, Josh. We've tried. I know, you know, it's rad. It'll be announced at some point. But the big, big thing is the live action spit off. And that's something we're going to really start working on on Monday. How do you equate, like, is there a comp for a universe you're building out? Like, we've seen obviously lots of, whether it's Star Wars, Where the Rings, DC, Marvel.

Like, is it like in how you're envisioning how to build out a Stranger Things universe, that's, that's an appropriate comp in your mind or no? It's hard because most of the big franchises that you look at, whether it's, yeah, whether it's Marvel or Star Wars. are just a very different beast than what we have with Stranger Things, which is more of a contained world. It's not all, we don't have all these sprawling universes and alternate dimensions to go to. So I think we're trying something a little bit different. And I were excited about it because it allows us to tell new stories. and yes it'll connect but also it really is going to be its own own thing with its own identity because i think the only other option would be to start to continue to mind these tiny little

gaps or openings in the show which they're they're just becoming less and less obviously we did it with the play and we're doing it with the cartoon but we're we're almost out um Of those little openings. So we really just have to, and it's just going to be diminishing return. So we have to just go and build something completely new. But we're excited about it. It's just an idea that we're just so, think it's going to be so awesome. All right.

We'll end with this. So as you sit here today, obviously, no plans to continue with any of these characters. E.T. never did it. They never did the sequel. But you know the world we live in today. It's hard to leave anything. alone. We're going to keep talking over the subsequent years. In five years, in 10 years when we're talking, are we talking about more stories with these characters? If you're betting men, what do you

say? I mean, I hope not. I, because that would be, you know, I'm taping this, and I can put these bad rematch. I could be, I could come back and, and really regret this. I, uh, no, I don't want, I, we don't want to. I mean, we really don't. Um, no. And, and, I mean, listen, we don't own the IP. It's not up to me, but I don't think that it's something Ross and I are interested in. I mean, we spent 10 years of our lives on this, and it's a coming-of-age story. And if it's not a coming-of-age story, you know, what is it? I mean, I think you'd have to, the only way it could work is we'd have to wait a really long time.

And our cast is so old that they would have kids. that are around 12 years old, like, you know, like the Gooney spinoff. That is the only version that could possibly work, but that's a long time for now. And I'm not helping you out already. Millie started us off. You got some kids off. Yeah, right? I think, well, you know, I think ultimately it'd take, I think it'll just take away from,

it would take away from this story. And in the ending, you know, and with this, the ending with 11 that we have. leaving it up to the audience, you sort of, any direction you go, you steal the power from that, and you steal the power from the ending. So there are no plans, no plans. Okay. This was recorded. I will revisit this.

We all will. Yes. If this not bite me in the ass, when I'm like, I need some fucking money, will George Lucas this interview? Is that possible? Yeah, sure. Yeah. Just lob it off before you ask that question.

No problem. I'm here for you. Congratulations, guys, truly. It's been such a privilege to go on the journey with all of you guys. Your cast, I'm in love with the show. You really wrapped it up so, so damn well. And you guys know better than anybody how difficult that is. I hope you're enjoying the moment and take 48 hours.

Trying to me. It's a very confusing feeling, you know. I mean, we've been texting with the cast and everyone's everyone's not sure what to do. I mean, you know, and everybody spread out. I think that's what's really hard. Like, we're all feeling

so desperate to get together and no one's in the same location. And that's challenging. But we'll see each other again soon. But yeah, it's been a blast and thank you for truly for supporting

the show for so long. a lot to us. Anytime. I'll see you guys soon, I'm sure, and congrats again. Thanks, Ross. Thanks, Matt. Thank you, Josh. Happy new year, man. Yeah, having a new year. All right, you too.

Truly, thanks, guys. Talk to you soon. Yeah. And so ends another edition of happy, sad, confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely

wasn't pressure to do this by Josh. From the darkest corners of our imagination comes a game show that's more ridiculous than terrifying. Welcome to Tickled to Death, the horror comedy game show where nothing is sacred, everything's a little unhinged, and the only thing more cursed than the questions are the jokes. I'm Roz Hernan.

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